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wait. AutoTrader. This

1:03

program is sponsored by the Caudley

1:05

Foundation based in Los Angeles, California.

1:08

The Caudley Foundation is dedicated to

1:11

advancing science for the benefit of

1:13

humanity. I'm

1:19

Alan Olga and this is Clear

1:21

and Vivid, conversations about

1:24

connecting and communicating. When

1:29

they've talked to folks who are consistent super communicators,

1:31

because we're all super communicators at one time or

1:33

another, but people who can connect with

1:36

almost anyone who are really good at this, and

1:38

they ask them, have you always been good at

1:41

communication? Most often they

1:43

say no. They say something like, you

1:45

know, when I was in high school, I had trouble

1:48

making friends. So I really had to study how kids

1:50

talk to each other or where my parents got divorced

1:52

and I had to be the peacemaker between them. Or

1:54

my dad was a salesman and my grandfather was

1:56

a con man. And so I really had to

1:59

think about like, study them and try and

2:01

figure out what's going on. And I think

2:03

what's happening there is that oftentimes

2:05

thinking, just a little, like half

2:07

an inch deeper, thinking about communication

2:10

is what makes us better at communication. That's

2:14

Charles Duhigg. He's

2:16

a journalist whose new book is

2:18

called Supercommunicators. How to

2:21

unlock the secret power of connection. Since

2:24

this is a podcast that devotes

2:26

itself to conversations about connecting and

2:28

communicating, we knew that

2:30

having Charles on the show was likely to

2:32

lead to a great conversation and

2:34

we weren't disappointed. This

2:37

is such a wonderful book. Oh, thank you.

2:39

I just love this book. As I understand

2:42

it, you really wrote it for yourself. Yes.

2:44

Because you needed to read a book like

2:46

this. That's exactly right. I

2:48

find that this is my third book.

2:50

And I'm curious if you've had similar

2:53

experiences. I find that the

2:55

best books are the ones where I say, like, I really

2:57

have a problem. I need to figure out how to solve.

3:00

And here, if I call up all these experts,

3:02

they'll probably talk to me if I tell them I'm writing a book.

3:05

So I'll go ahead and do that. Am

3:07

I right that it began with your figuring

3:09

out when you were in a job managing

3:11

at the New York Times? That's

3:14

exactly right. You didn't feel you were a very good manager. No.

3:16

And I was not a good manager. I mean, it's

3:19

interesting because, you know, I've had many of the managers

3:21

myself. And so I thought I'd be pretty good at

3:23

this. And I have an MBA

3:25

from Harvard Business School. And

3:28

so I teach that there. Exactly.

3:30

Exactly. And so I figured that, you know,

3:32

like I figured I'd be

3:34

good at this. I didn't even worry about it.

3:36

And I was fine at like logistics and strategy

3:38

and all that stuff. But the thing I

3:41

was terrible at was I had people who

3:43

were reported to me and they would come and they would

3:45

talk to me about the problems. And

3:47

inevitably I screwed it up every time. Like, I

3:49

just I didn't show them that I was listening

3:51

to them. They would come to me and they

3:53

wanted me to empathize. And I try and solve

3:55

their problem instead of empathize with them. All

3:58

these all these rookie mistakes. And

4:00

I just thought to myself, like, if I, a

4:02

journalist who's a professional communicator, if I am so

4:04

bad at this, there's probably lots of

4:06

other people who have the same problem. You

4:08

mentioned listening, and the more I thought about

4:11

communication, and I've thought a lot about it

4:13

in the last 20 or 30 years, it

4:16

really struck me as an odd realization

4:20

that communicating is to a great extent

4:22

listening. That's exactly right. Good

4:24

communication often is thought of

4:27

as, I gotta get the right combination

4:29

of ideas here. What's the best way

4:31

to formulate these ideas as

4:33

if one size will fit all? And

4:35

can I actually ask you a question about that? Because I've

4:38

been curious about this. Sure. So as

4:40

an actor, when you're performing, when you're

4:42

on my screen or on the stage, I

4:44

get to see you communicating.

4:48

But I imagine leading up to that

4:50

moment, there's a tremendous amount of listening.

4:52

How do you think about listening when

4:54

I'm an audience and you're the communicator,

4:56

I'm watching you, how do you listen

4:59

to me? Actually, it's a fundamental

5:01

part of performing, of acting. And

5:04

I learned it the hard way on the

5:06

stage. I remember Mike Nichols directing

5:08

me in a musical and he

5:10

would say, you're not relating, you

5:13

gotta relate more. So

5:15

to me, relating was getting up closer,

5:17

putting my head closer to the other

5:19

person. So I was leaning over like

5:21

a fallen tree. But

5:23

I still wasn't relating. And

5:26

I began to realize that what

5:29

I learned when I was in

5:31

improvisation workshops and actually performing improvisation

5:34

at a cabaret, that

5:36

the whole secret was to listen and

5:38

be transformed by what was coming in

5:41

from the other person. Oh,

5:43

that's interesting. And I began to realize that

5:45

I'm not really listening unless I'm willing to

5:47

be changed by the other person. If

5:50

I'm willing to be changed, then I'm

5:52

pretty much listening as well as I

5:54

can. That's fascinating. And let me

5:56

make sure I'm understanding what you're saying. When

5:58

you're on the stage performing. you're not

6:01

necessarily listening to me, the audience, but you are listening to

6:03

the other people in the scene with you, the other actors.

6:05

Oh, yes. Even though you know what

6:07

they're gonna say because you've read the script, you're actually

6:09

having a conversation. Yeah, unless

6:11

you do, it's not gonna seem

6:13

life-like. Yeah. We were watching a

6:15

movie last night, an old movie from the 30s,

6:19

and my wife, Arlene, said to me, look, each

6:22

one of them is saying their lines the

6:25

way they thought they should be said, but they're not listening

6:27

to each other. Huh. And that's an

6:29

acting style that has changed over the years,

6:31

and it's much more common to see people

6:34

really listening to each other, but not always.

6:37

That's really interesting. As

6:39

a podcaster, sorry, I'm asking you all

6:41

the questions. It's okay, but

6:43

I'm curious, as a podcaster, do

6:46

you feel like your, how you listen

6:48

has changed? Well,

6:50

it's different. Before I

6:53

was a podcaster, I was interviewing scientists

6:55

on public television, on a television

6:58

show, on the scientific American frontiers, and

7:01

I realized at that point that

7:03

the scientists were able to

7:05

tell their story in plain terms, the

7:08

more I really listened to them and connected to them.

7:11

It then got to be a conversation between me

7:13

and them. They weren't

7:15

talking for the benefit of the camera or

7:18

the microphone, and that's

7:20

carried over to podcasting. I mean,

7:22

I welcome you're asking me questions,

7:24

because to me, if it's not a conversation

7:27

where something's going back and forth between us and we're

7:30

not responding to one another in the

7:32

moment, not a very good program.

7:34

No, I absolutely agree. And

7:36

it's interesting, because one of the

7:38

things that for me was really

7:41

impactful was talking to

7:43

researchers and talking to scientists and them

7:45

explaining sort of

7:47

the evolutionary roots of communication. That

7:50

for Homo sapiens, communication is our superpower,

7:53

right? It's the thing that as a

7:55

species has set us apart from

7:57

the rest of the animal kingdom. Because

8:00

it lets us build families and villages and

8:02

towns and nations. It lets us learn

8:04

things and transmit that knowledge without us,

8:06

someone else having to go through the

8:09

painful process of, of learning it the

8:11

first time. And developing new technologies. Exactly.

8:13

Exactly. Communication is at the heart of

8:15

all of this. Everything that we think

8:17

about as being human, I think

8:19

is really about communication. And

8:22

what they said is they said, look, one

8:24

of the reasons why this evolved is because

8:26

our brains evolved to crave

8:28

communication. They evolved to crave

8:30

connection, right? If you

8:33

think about, you know, eons ago, the

8:35

early Homo sapien who succeeded was the

8:37

one who was pro social, who sought

8:39

out help from others,

8:41

who sought out communities. And

8:43

so we all have this thing in our

8:45

head that craves connecting with other people. And

8:47

exactly to what you just said, when this

8:49

is a conversation rather than an interview, when

8:51

it feels like a back and forth, it

8:54

feels rewarding. That's why a good conversation

8:56

feels so magical is because there's literally

8:58

a part of your brain that's evolved

9:00

to make it feel magical. And

9:03

that's why we've survived. So

9:11

you mentioned the nature of

9:13

questions, different kinds of questions. What's

9:15

the big distinction between a good

9:17

question and a question that doesn't

9:19

get anywhere? So the way I

9:21

think about it, and then I'm going to ask you the

9:24

same question because I'm curious how you think about it. The

9:26

way I think about it is that there's a difference between

9:28

questions that ask about facts, the

9:30

facts of someone's life, and questions that ask

9:32

how they feel about their life. And so

9:35

a great example of this is, and within

9:37

psychology, these are known as deep questions and

9:39

they're questions that ask about values or beliefs or

9:41

experiences, which can sound kind of intimidating, but, but

9:44

it's as easy as if you bump into someone

9:46

who's a doctor, instead of saying to

9:48

them, Oh, you know, what hospital do you work at? Or

9:50

where do you practice medicine? Which is a fact question asking

9:53

them, Oh, what made you decide to go to law to

9:55

medical school? Or like, or do you

9:57

enjoy being a doctor? Like, do you find it really, really.

10:00

rewarding? When I ask

10:02

those questions, how they feel about their life,

10:04

how they've made decisions, what their experiences are,

10:07

what I'm saying is I'd love to invite

10:09

you to say something meaningful about yourself. I'd

10:12

love you to tell me who you are, and

10:14

I'm not going to mandate it. It's an

10:16

invitation and not a mandate, but

10:19

in doing so, what I'm doing is I'm showing you that

10:21

I want to connect with you and I'm

10:23

giving you an opportunity, not just to tell me

10:26

some fact, Oh, I work at Mercy general, but

10:28

rather I went to, I went to medical

10:31

school cause I saw my dad get sick and I wanted to

10:33

be one of those healers. Now we're

10:35

having a real conversation. What I found

10:37

that's very interesting. In fact, just

10:39

the other day, someone that I

10:41

was asking a question of answered

10:44

in a vibrant way. And

10:47

I didn't expect that. And

10:49

I wound up having a longer conversation than

10:51

I thought I would have because one

10:54

question led to another. It made me hungry

10:56

for no more. And when

10:58

you say that they answered in a

11:00

vibrant way, what did they do? What,

11:03

what made it vibrant? They leaned forward,

11:05

their eyes widened. They were interested in

11:07

telling me about this experience that meant

11:09

something to them. Yeah. And

11:12

that, that was contagious. It's

11:14

absolutely contagious. In fact, we

11:16

know that there's this phenomenon

11:18

known as emotional contagion, which

11:21

is, tell me about that. Well, so if

11:23

I'm feeling an emotion and I describe it to you,

11:25

the reason why that's an effective form of communication is

11:28

that you'll actually feel that emotion a little bit yourself,

11:30

right? If I tell you a story about, about

11:33

a funeral I went to about my father passing

11:35

away, you'll

11:37

listen, but you'll also feel, you'll

11:39

empathize and what empathy empathy is,

11:42

is it's sharing a little bit the feeling that

11:45

I have. That's emotional

11:47

contagion. And it's, it's so

11:49

essential to our neurology that

11:52

if you think about it, when a

11:54

baby before a baby knows what emotions are

11:56

before baby can talk, if you smile at

11:58

a baby, they smile. back at you.

12:01

If you frown at a baby, they

12:03

frown back at you. Emotional contagion is

12:06

an essential part of how we communicate

12:08

with others. And

12:10

so I think when that person, when you

12:12

ask that person a question and they're excited

12:14

and they lean in and they... You're catching.

12:16

They're contagious with excitement. They're contagious

12:19

with interest. As you

12:21

were talking about asking a deep

12:23

question, I was thinking how

12:25

difficult it can be for most of us, or

12:27

many of us anyway, to

12:29

ask the right question of someone who has just

12:32

had a spouse who had died or

12:35

someone close to them in some way.

12:38

I hate it when they say, how are you doing? How

12:41

do you think I'm doing? Right. So

12:43

what do you ask? I imagine that you've

12:45

had other friends who have lost parents or

12:48

loved ones. What do you find is the

12:50

thing that you try and... One

12:53

of the things that I... If it's

12:55

very close to the time of death,

12:57

I'm curious to know what the

13:00

last moments were like. Was the person in

13:03

pain? Were the people around him? What happened?

13:07

What happened medically? I'm

13:09

curious to know the process. And

13:11

it seems to be something that this

13:13

other person wants to talk about. Absolutely.

13:17

It's the most intense experience that

13:19

we go through. My father, when he passed away,

13:22

we knew it was coming and he was in

13:24

the hospital and I have nine siblings and so

13:26

we were all around him in the hospital. And

13:28

if somebody had asked me what were those last

13:31

moments like, it would have been a

13:33

gift to me because those

13:35

moments are seared into your memory. Those

13:38

moments are something you

13:40

both treasure and carry

13:43

with you for your life. And so when someone

13:45

asks you about it, when they're genuinely curious, it

13:48

feels important. It feels meaningful. It

13:52

sounds to me like one of the key things

13:55

about this is that it

13:57

needs to come from genuine curiosity. I think

13:59

that's right. It comes from this is the

14:01

way I ought to talk now because I

14:03

read super communicators, right? It's

14:05

like come out kind of phony and

14:08

authenticity Is really

14:11

something we're all tuned into and oh we

14:13

all crave I think Exactly.

14:16

Well and one thing that's interesting to me is when

14:18

they've talked to folks who are consistent supercommunicators

14:20

because we're all super communicators at one time or

14:23

another but but people who can Connect with almost

14:25

anyone who are really good at this and

14:27

they ask them. Have you always been good at

14:30

communication? Most often they

14:32

say no, they say something like you

14:35

know when I was in high school I had trouble

14:37

making friends so I really had to study how kids

14:39

talk to each other or where my parents got divorced

14:41

and I had to be the Peacemaker between them or

14:44

my dad was a salesman and my grandfather was a

14:46

con man And so I really had

14:48

to think about like study them and try and figure

14:50

out what's going on and I

14:52

think what's happening there is that Oftentimes

14:55

thinking just a little like half

14:57

an inch deeper thinking about communication

15:00

is what makes us better at

15:02

communication Hmm, that's interesting when we

15:04

stop thinking about communication That's

15:07

when that's when the wheels start to wiggle

15:09

on the bus But but

15:11

it doesn't take much thought but just sitting down

15:13

before you have an important conversation and saying Why

15:17

am I having this conversation like what what's

15:19

my goal of having this conversation and equally

15:21

importantly What do I think is the

15:23

other person's goal? What do they want

15:25

out of this now? It is connected

15:27

to your idea that there are three

15:29

kinds of conversations Yeah, yeah

15:31

so this is one of the big insights

15:33

that researchers have found which is that We

15:36

tend to think of a discussion as being

15:39

about one thing But actually a discussion is

15:41

usually made up of different kinds of conversations

15:43

And they tend to fall into one of three buckets. There's Practical

15:46

conversations which are about making plans

15:48

or solving problems or or

15:51

just figuring things out But

15:53

then there's emotional conversations and when I

15:55

tell you how I'm feeling. I don't

15:58

want you to solve my feelings I want you to to

16:00

empathize, right? And then

16:02

finally, there's social conversations, which is about how we relate

16:04

to each other and to society and the social identities

16:06

that are important to us. And

16:09

what researchers have found is all

16:11

three of these kinds of conversations are legitimate, but

16:13

if you're not having the same kind of conversation

16:15

at the same moment, it's very

16:18

difficult to hear each other. So

16:20

if I come home after a long day and

16:22

I'm complaining about my boss to my wife and

16:24

I'm having an emotional conversation and she says, oh,

16:27

here's a solution. Why don't you just take

16:29

them out for lunch and you guys can get to know each other? That's

16:32

a good solution, but it's a practical conversation and I'm

16:34

in an emotional mindset. So I'm not gonna hear what

16:36

she says and said I'm gonna get even more upset

16:39

and say, why aren't you supporting me? You're supposed to

16:41

be outraged on my behalf and she's gonna get upset

16:43

because I'm attacking her for giving me good advice. Yeah,

16:45

great. But if we're having the same

16:47

kind of conversation at the same moment, then

16:49

we can move from emotional to practical to

16:52

social and back to emotional together and

16:54

we really click. So what kind

16:56

of conversation are we having now? Oh,

16:59

that's a good question. I think

17:02

it's a little practical, but like all conversations, it

17:05

kind of moves through things, right? When we're talking

17:07

about people that we

17:09

know passing away, I think it gets

17:11

a little emotional. When we're

17:13

talking about kind of these scientific concepts, I think

17:15

it's a little bit more practical. And

17:18

we both admitted vulnerability. Absolutely,

17:21

which is critical, right?

17:24

Sorry, I keep overlapping you, I

17:26

didn't mean to. No, no, not at

17:28

all. That's what a good conversation is, right? When

17:37

we come back from our break, Charles

17:39

Duhigg talks about the difficulty and the

17:41

value of having a conversation

17:43

with someone you disagree with. This

17:49

program is sponsored by the Cauley

17:51

Foundation, dedicated to advancing

17:53

science for the benefit of humanity. The

17:56

foundation's mission is to stimulate

17:58

scientific research astrophysics,

18:00

theoretical physics, nanoscience,

18:03

and neuroscience to

18:05

strengthen the relationship between science and

18:08

society and to

18:10

honor scientific discoveries with

18:12

the Cauley Prize. My

18:15

name is Nicole Kidman and I've wanted

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to do a rom-com for so long

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and a long came. A family affair.

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It's a great romantic comedy and it's

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laugh out loud. If you feel like

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require extenders at additional charge. This

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is Clear and Vivid and now back

19:21

to my conversation with Charles Duhigg, the

19:23

author of Super Communicators, How to Unlock

19:25

the Secret Power of Connection. You

19:29

relate really well. You're spontaneous

19:32

with me. You come up with an

19:34

answer that's appropriate to the question and

19:36

you dig deeper. You're watching me. I

19:38

see you're looking at my reaction and

19:42

you're responding to each change in me. When

19:45

I first realized the importance of

19:47

it, it was because I found

19:49

improvisation exercises made me do that.

19:51

Interesting. But that was an experience

19:53

and it wasn't something that could

19:56

be communicated in words. But I'm wondering how

19:58

you can help other people have it. Well,

20:00

I think one of the things that we

20:02

know is that because communication is so important

20:05

to how we've evolved, that when we're

20:07

exposed to skills or techniques or tools

20:09

that are useful and we practice them

20:12

a little bit, they become

20:14

habits very, very quickly. And

20:16

so I'm curious, when you first

20:19

learned in improv that

20:21

you need to really pay attention, you need

20:23

to sort of lean in to do the

20:25

yes and. I

20:27

imagine just learning that wasn't enough to make you

20:29

an expert at it, that you had to practice

20:31

a little bit. That's right.

20:34

In fact, I think in... Now

20:36

I'm remembering. I think in the book

20:38

I wrote about this, that I

20:41

actually tried that out. I tried to see

20:43

if I could increase my empathy by

20:45

reading faces of people that I was just passing

20:48

by in the street or talking to at the

20:50

cashier's counter in the diner. And

20:53

I got more use than I had been to

20:55

reading their face, trying to figure

20:57

out what they were going through. Do you

20:59

have suggestions like that that you give to people?

21:02

Absolutely. So there's a number of things you

21:04

can do. And again, to your point, it's

21:06

literally just practice. So one of the things

21:08

that I'm... A guy named Nicholas Epley, who's

21:10

a professor at the University of Chicago, one

21:13

of the things that he does is that he'll

21:15

get on the bus and he tries to do this once a week. He'll

21:18

get on the bus, he'll sit down next to

21:20

a stranger, he'll ask

21:22

them, whatever he feels like asking, what do you do for

21:25

a living? Where do you live? And

21:27

his goal is to get to their hopes and

21:29

dreams within three questions. Without being hit by a

21:31

pocketbook that the book... Without being hit by a

21:33

pocketbook or having it be really weird. And it

21:35

turns out he usually does it in two, because

21:38

he asks someone, what do you do for a living? And

21:40

they say, oh, I'm an accountant. And he says, oh, did

21:42

you always want to be accountant? Was that your dream when

21:44

you were a kid? And they say, no,

21:46

of course not. Who wants to be an accountant when you're

21:48

a kid? But already

21:50

they're having this back and forth. And he said the

21:53

first couple of times he did it, it felt

21:55

like the most awkward thing he had ever done.

21:57

It felt weird and he felt... like

22:00

he was a weirdo for doing it. And

22:02

he said, now he does it without even

22:04

thinking about it. That's a great story. When

22:07

we go to dinner with my kids, what

22:09

I'll often do is after we order, but

22:11

before the food comes, I

22:13

tell them that they have to go around the

22:15

restaurant. They have to find one person to ask

22:18

a question of and learn something about

22:20

them and come tell us about that person before

22:22

their dinner comes. How old were

22:25

the kids? Now they're

22:27

12 and 15, but this is

22:29

back when they were like, they were like seven and 10.

22:32

They hated this game. They hated this game. Now

22:34

they do it without even asking because they found

22:36

out that if you go around asking grownups questions,

22:38

some of them give you money. So they would

22:41

come back to the table, like two or three

22:43

bucks. And they thought it was the greatest thing

22:45

on earth. You got to get on a podcast.

22:48

It's true. That's

22:50

great. You

22:58

talk often about the value once

23:00

you make contact that

23:02

it's good to share with the other

23:05

person what you're going through. And

23:08

I'm wondering about the difficulty we have

23:11

in sharing with someone who comes from a tribe

23:13

that's different from ours. And we talk about tribes all

23:16

the time now. And

23:18

it seems that the tribal connection

23:21

makes it difficult for somebody to listen

23:23

to somebody who they think is from

23:25

the other tribe. And

23:27

how do we get over that? What do we do

23:29

about that? You know, when we talk about tribalism, we

23:32

tend to think of this in binaries.

23:35

You know, someone belongs to the Trump tribe

23:37

and I belong to the Biden tribe. Someone

23:39

belongs to the African-American tribe. I belong to

23:41

the white tribe. But of

23:43

course, what's actually true is I'm

23:45

a member of dozens and dozens of tribes

23:48

and so are you. And so is everyone

23:50

on this planet. And

23:52

so if I if I encounter someone and I say, you

23:55

know, as a Trump supporter, you

23:57

must you must hate taxes. What

24:00

I'm doing is I'm kind of pushing this person

24:03

into a corner. I'm kind of pushing this person

24:05

into just one identity. And

24:07

they might possess that identity, but they have so many other

24:09

identities. If I was to ask that question and said and

24:11

say, look, I know you're a Trump supporter

24:13

in your Republican, but I also know you

24:16

send your kids to the same school that I send my

24:18

kids and we have this pothole in front of our street

24:21

and we both coach Little League. And

24:24

I'm wondering with all those different hats on,

24:26

you probably see the issue of taxes from

24:28

a lot of different perspectives. Tell

24:31

me what you think. You tell me what you think

24:33

about taxes. What

24:35

I'm doing there is instead of pushing someone

24:37

into a stereotype, I'm

24:40

mentioning all the multitudes they contain

24:43

and I'm inviting them to present

24:45

to themselves to me as a real person,

24:47

as a full person, as a complex person.

24:50

And I think it takes a lot of the bite out

24:52

of that conversation that when I say

24:54

to someone, I have a

24:56

neighbor who has a Trump sign on his lawn and

24:58

I'm not going to vote for Trump. I'm not a

25:00

fan. But of course that's

25:03

1% of our lives. We

25:06

hardly ever think about politics. We're much

25:08

more interested in the gophers that are

25:10

taking over our front yard and how

25:13

his kid is doing at a school that my kid might

25:15

go to next year. And so

25:17

when we invite all of those identities to the table,

25:20

then it doesn't become a question of

25:22

you have to defend your guy or

25:24

your tribe. It becomes a

25:26

question of you belong to

25:28

different tribes. Tell me what that's like. And

25:31

then I want to share what my tribes are like. My

25:34

impression is that you don't necessarily come

25:36

away, either one of you having

25:38

changed your mind about what

25:40

you consider important things, but you

25:42

have the ability now to talk to each

25:44

other as people, as

25:46

members of various tribes that you

25:49

hadn't considered to be tribes before.

25:51

I think that's exactly right. And of course,

25:53

the goal of a conversation is not to

25:55

change someone's mind. It's to

25:57

understand who they are. in

26:00

our lives, in our nation's history that we're most proud

26:02

of, those are not the

26:04

times when everyone agreed with each other. Those

26:06

are the times when people disagreed with

26:08

each other, but they managed to talk

26:10

about their differences, right? The Constitutional Convention,

26:12

when you think about it, is

26:15

a group of business

26:17

people and leaders who hated

26:19

each other, coming together for like three

26:21

and a half months and just arguing

26:24

and debating and disagreeing, but

26:27

having the conversation. And at

26:29

the end of it, they did not all agree with each

26:31

other, but they did manage to write a constitution. That's

26:34

the part of our country that we're all

26:36

proudest of, is that those moments when not

26:39

when we agree with each other, not when

26:41

there's peace, but

26:43

rather when we know how

26:45

to work through our differences and

26:47

coexist peacefully. Yeah,

26:50

I long for the day when we can disagree

26:52

with each other and not have to hate each

26:54

other. And we're getting there. You think so? I

26:56

do. The last decade's been tough, right?

26:59

There's between COVID and

27:01

politics and online sort

27:03

of echo tunnels. But

27:06

at the end of the day, I want to

27:08

be friends with my neighbor, regardless of

27:10

what sign he has on his lawn. I

27:13

want to feel connected to him. We share

27:15

something important. We both live on the street. There's

27:18

a wonderful feeling of reconciliation

27:22

when somebody who we thought we'd be on

27:24

the opposite side of a fence with turns

27:27

out to be a charming,

27:29

fun-loving person. And there's so

27:31

many things we can talk about with pleasure. It

27:34

makes me think sometimes that one of

27:37

the strongest storytelling elements is

27:39

reconciliation. I personally have

27:42

a strong response when two characters

27:44

reconcile at the end of a

27:46

story, believably, not just they have

27:48

lived happily ever after, but believably.

27:51

In the book, there's a story about an experiment that

27:53

was done where they brought together gun

27:55

rights advocates and gun control activists.

27:58

And these are people who... who

28:00

normally hate each other, right? They'd spent

28:02

years screaming at each other across protest

28:04

lines and on legislatures. And

28:07

they taught them this technique, this looping for understanding,

28:10

you know, ask a question, repeat back what you

28:12

heard, ask if you got it right. And

28:14

I talked to some of the people who had participated in

28:16

the experiment and they said, it was

28:19

amazing. You know, I went in

28:21

and there's a guy who owns 47 rifles

28:25

and I told him about a school shooting that

28:28

had happened when I was a kid. And

28:31

he listened, he asked me questions about

28:33

it. We found that, you know,

28:35

we have this thing in common even though we think

28:37

the solutions are different. And

28:40

it felt amazing just to have this person

28:42

listen to me who for years I had

28:44

been certain would never listen. You're

28:47

exactly right, that reconciliation, that

28:49

connection, it

28:51

feels really meaningful. And in fact, we

28:54

know that actually, you know, the surgeon

28:56

general has said that being

28:58

lonely is the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes

29:00

a day. We

29:02

know that people who have at least a

29:05

handful of close relationships with others and

29:07

who invest in those relationships by having

29:09

conversations, by setting time aside for them,

29:12

those people, they live longer than everyone

29:14

else. They're happier as they

29:16

age than everyone else. They're

29:19

more successful than everyone else because they get

29:21

exposure to opportunities that they wouldn't have seen

29:23

otherwise. Connecting with people is really

29:25

healthy. You

29:31

mentioned the improv technique of yes

29:33

and, which has become

29:35

kind of popular now. The origin

29:37

of it is when you're doing

29:39

a scene together and one

29:41

of you establishes a fact, say

29:44

about your surroundings. Like,

29:47

I didn't know there were so many creators like there are

29:49

here on the moon. It's

29:52

not a good idea to say, we're not on the

29:54

moon, we're in Philadelphia. You

29:58

gotta agree with what you've given. And

30:01

that's the yes part and

30:03

then you got to add to it and go

30:05

deeper into it with the and part and Look

30:08

and look at all the turnips growing or

30:11

I didn't know things grew here So

30:17

When you try to apply yes and to

30:19

a real human conversation not a sketch The

30:23

yes is hard and the and is

30:25

even harder because it's much easier to

30:27

say but Somebody says too

30:29

many people are getting killed in mass shootings

30:32

for some people the yes part is hard

30:34

It's hard for them to find anything to

30:36

agree about And

30:38

if they do it's easy to say but

30:40

right the Second Amendment is more important

30:42

than you think it is Yeah and

30:45

I think one of the things that I Look

30:47

to to help me in those moments is there's

30:49

this phrase that someone once told me which I

30:52

love which is if you're

30:54

feeling furious get curious right

30:56

if you're feeling upset or hot or you

30:58

want to say but but Instead

31:02

just ask a question because oftentimes

31:04

what that question allows us to do is it

31:06

allows us to say? Yes, and

31:08

without actually having to agree with a

31:10

person, you know I hear you saying that

31:12

mass shootings are terrible and I'm just wondering from

31:15

your perspective if we if

31:18

We limited kids access to guns would that resolve

31:20

some of the things that troubles you so much

31:22

right at that point? I'm not saying I agree

31:25

with you. I'm not saying that we should limit

31:27

kids kids access to guns I'm not saying we

31:29

should limit the Second Amendment. Are you just finding

31:31

some kind of connection? It's it's

31:33

a kind of a yes and right like

31:36

I'm saying yeah the point you brought up.

31:38

Nobody likes mass shootings Yes, and

31:40

I'm wondering what are the

31:43

contours of where that

31:45

concern goes next? Yeah, that's that's interesting

31:47

to explore what could be the end

31:50

Yeah, because the end is so it's

31:52

so tempting when you get to and

31:54

in a real conversation To

31:56

want to insert at this point. Yes, I

31:59

see what you see saying, and now here's

32:01

the part where I counter it with what

32:03

I know to be true. Exactly. And I

32:05

find that this is happening right now with

32:07

the presidential race, right? One of the best

32:09

conversations I've had recently is I was talking

32:11

to someone who was

32:13

a Trump supporter and they were

32:15

saying things that I

32:17

disagree with, right? But

32:20

instead of saying like, no, you're wrong, or

32:22

instead of saying we were on an airplane

32:24

together, instead of saying like, you know, like

32:26

that's a selfish thing to say, instead

32:28

I asked a question, I said, I'm just wondering, why

32:32

is it so, like, why is this candidate so important

32:34

to you? Cause there's been other, we've

32:36

all lived through elections, like people,

32:38

you seem really passionate about Donald Trump

32:40

in a way that I'm guessing you

32:42

weren't passionate about George W. Bush or

32:45

Bob Dole. And this guy

32:47

took a second and he said, you know, I

32:51

feel like my parents had a better life than

32:53

I do and that I've

32:55

been left out by the elites.

32:57

And that exclusion feels really bad.

33:01

And of course at that moment, we've

33:03

all experienced exclusion. We all know what that

33:05

feels like. We know how frustrating

33:07

it is to feel like politicians or people

33:09

in power are making choices that's not in

33:11

our best interest. Now

33:13

we had something that we could talk about that we

33:15

both related to. And that does not mean I'm gonna

33:17

vote for Trump and it doesn't mean he's gonna vote

33:19

for Biden. It doesn't mean that we even think the

33:21

solutions are the same. But

33:23

by asking that question, asking this deep question, which

33:25

is why is this important? What

33:27

do you make of this? Tell me what this means

33:30

to you. That's when

33:32

we find something where we, there's inevitably something

33:34

we have in common that lets us do

33:36

that yes and. I actually

33:38

really believe strongly that like, we

33:42

are good at communication. Sometimes

33:44

we forget how good we are and sometimes

33:46

we get distracted. And when

33:49

my parents were in school, they took

33:51

a class called HOMEC or interpersonal communications

33:53

and they learned these skills and

33:55

schools have stopped teaching that. But that doesn't mean

33:57

that the skills are unlearnable. That's

34:01

why I wrote the book, and I do believe that we practice

34:03

them and we get better at them. I

34:05

think we're going to be fine. Well,

34:08

it's reassuring to talk to you on

34:10

many levels. It's a wonderful book. I'm

34:13

really glad that you had the time to

34:15

talk with me about it. Our time is

34:17

running out, though, and we always end every

34:19

show with seven quick questions. Okay, I'm ready.

34:22

Of all the things there are to understand, what

34:25

do you wish you really

34:27

understood? Oh, I wish

34:29

I understood my kids. Sometimes

34:32

I feel like I understand a little bit, but I

34:34

wish that I could see the world through their eyes.

34:37

How do you tell someone they have their facts

34:39

wrong? You know,

34:41

I usually don't. I

34:43

usually ask them why it matters to them

34:46

so much. Unless

34:48

they're asking for corrections, but if

34:50

I tell them their facts are wrong, they're probably not going

34:52

to believe me. They're going to believe them more. Exactly.

34:57

What's the strangest question anyone has ever

34:59

asked you? You

35:02

know, so there's this experiment that we do sometimes where

35:04

you turn to a stranger and you ask them, when's

35:06

the last time you cried in front of another

35:08

person? And

35:11

that's a pretty strange question, and people think

35:13

it's going to be a terrible conversation. It's

35:15

always a fantastic conversation. People love

35:17

that conversation. So it's both the

35:19

weirdest and the best question that I've been asked.

35:22

Oh, that's great. Okay,

35:25

next. How do you deal with a compulsive talker?

35:31

Usually I just end the conversation because the

35:33

thing is we don't have to have conversations

35:35

with everyone, right? Now,

35:37

I will say that sometimes what I find

35:40

is I get in conversations where I'm asking

35:42

questions and they never ask a question back.

35:45

And I've worked out this kind of way to handle that,

35:47

which is I say to them, you know,

35:49

I apologize. I've been asking you so many questions and

35:51

I imagine you have some questions for

35:53

me. I don't want to badger you all

35:55

night long. Is there anything you want to ask me about?

35:58

What do they say? Usually they have lots of questions. They

36:00

just, they're not graceful at knowing how to ask

36:03

them. So I have to give them permission. Uh,

36:07

let's say you're sitting at a dinner table and

36:09

you're next to someone you never met before. How

36:12

do you begin a genuine conversation? I've

36:14

done this a couple of times. I would ask

36:17

them what their favorite memory is. I

36:19

find that when you ask people about their favorite memory, they

36:23

tell you something wonderful about themselves.

36:26

And then, and this is the key, I

36:28

would answer the same question myself, even if

36:30

they don't ask me in return. Yeah,

36:33

this is a technique you talk about

36:36

in the book that sounds very powerful.

36:38

What's the net effect of that, of

36:40

answering their revelation with your revelation? So,

36:43

and it has to be sharing, it has to

36:45

be supportive. If you tell me, oh, my

36:47

father passed away and I say, oh, you know, my dog

36:49

died last week. I totally know what you're going through. That's

36:53

me stealing the spotlight, right? That's not me trying

36:55

to connect with you. But if

36:57

you say something vulnerable, and

36:59

I match that vulnerability, I

37:01

express something vulnerable about myself, what

37:04

we're doing is we're engaging in that reciprocity. I'm

37:07

thanking you for trusting me

37:10

with something meaningful by

37:12

giving you something meaningful about myself in return.

37:14

And we feel closer to each other. Okay,

37:18

next to last, what

37:20

gives you confidence? Whew,

37:24

that is a good question. And

37:26

I wish you were answering these questions too, because they're

37:28

really good ones. You know,

37:31

the thing that gives me the most confidence is

37:34

when I feel like I have

37:36

learned something about myself that surprises

37:38

me, or learned something about others.

37:42

I would say my mistakes are actually

37:44

the things that give me the most

37:46

confidence. Uh-huh. Okay, last

37:48

question. What book

37:50

changed your life? Oh,

37:53

this is an easy one. The Varieties

37:55

of Religious Experience by William James. William

37:57

James is the father of American psychology.

38:00

And he wrote this book about the

38:03

psychology of religion. I'm not a religious person at

38:05

all, but he talks

38:07

about how believing

38:09

in things, having faith in things

38:12

changes how we think, changes how we

38:14

act. And it's

38:16

so inspiring because what he's really saying is he's

38:19

saying there's a chapter called the religion of happy-mindedness,

38:22

of people who just decide to be happy. And

38:25

this was him. He was on the

38:27

brink of suicide when he was in college. And

38:30

he just decided to believe, he decided to believe that

38:32

he could be happy, decided to believe that he had

38:34

free will. And it

38:36

worked. That's so great. I'm really

38:38

glad you could be with us today. Thanks

38:40

so much, Charles. It is such

38:43

a pleasure to meet you. I've been such

38:45

an admirer of your work for so long,

38:47

but with your acting and your science reportage

38:49

and your podcast, thank you for having me.

38:51

Thank you so much. This

38:55

has been clear and vivid. At

39:02

least I hope so. My thanks

39:04

to the Cauley Foundation for sponsoring this

39:06

episode. The Cauley Foundation

39:09

is dedicated to advancing science for

39:11

the benefit of humanity. While

39:14

he was a reporter for the New York

39:16

Times, Charles Duhigg led a team that

39:19

was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for

39:21

explanatory reporting for a

39:23

series of articles about the business practices

39:25

of Apple and other tech companies. His

39:28

books, The Power of Habit and

39:31

Faster, Smarter, Better were both

39:33

best sellers. As is

39:35

the book we talked about today, Super

39:37

Communicators, How to Unlock the

39:39

Secret Power of Connection. This

39:42

episode was edited and produced by

39:44

our executive producer, Graham Shedd, with

39:47

help from our associate producer, Jean

39:49

Chumet. Our publicist is

39:52

Sarah Hill. Our researcher

39:54

is Elizabeth Ohini, and

39:56

the sound engineer is Erica Huang. The

39:59

music is Kurt Hahn. of the Stefan

40:01

Koenig Trio. Next

40:11

in our series of conversations, I talk with

40:13

Katie Coleman. In 2011, she spent 159 days on

40:18

board the International Space Station. She's now sharing

40:21

that experience with the rest

40:23

of us Earth-bound people in

40:25

a wonderful book appropriately called Sharing Space.

40:29

So we're in the space station, and if I want

40:31

to go from here to there in the space station,

40:34

I can't walk. I have to give myself like a

40:36

little push. And even the example I love

40:38

to give is that if I took one

40:40

of my hair from my head and I used it to kind

40:42

of push off of a handrail, if I pushed real fast that

40:45

hair would break. But if I pushed

40:48

slowly, that is enough to push myself

40:50

across the whole space station. So

40:52

it is truly the life of Peter Pan.

40:55

Just this fact that it's so different than

40:58

down here, I think just underlines the

41:00

fact that you few people are

41:03

at the very edge of

41:05

where people are. You're representing everybody,

41:08

and you're sort of the group that is getting

41:10

to know how far have we gone.

41:13

And I don't know, I just

41:15

felt like a pioneer. Katie

41:18

Coleman, next time on Clear

41:20

and Vivid. For

41:23

more details about Clear and Vivid and to

41:25

sign up for my newsletter, please

41:27

visit alanalda.com. And

41:30

you can also find us on Facebook

41:32

and Instagram at Clear and Vivid. Thanks

41:35

for listening. Bye-bye. [♪

41:42

music playing

41:44

♪ My

41:52

name is Nicole Kibman, and I've wanted

41:54

to do a rom-com for so long,

41:56

and along came A Family Affair. It's

41:58

a great romantic comedy. And it's laugh

42:00

out loud. If you feel like, I

42:03

just need to curl up and watch

42:05

something that feels very comforting. It's the

42:07

Netflix experience. There's laughter and there's joy.

42:09

That's a family affair. A

42:11

Family Affair, starring Nicole Kidman, Zac Efron, and

42:14

Joey King. Directed by Richard

42:16

LaGravinase. Rated PG-13. Sexual content,

42:18

partial nudity, and some strong language. Only on

42:20

Netflix, June 28th. One,

42:24

two, three, four.

42:26

Those are numbers. But you already

42:28

knew that. If you wanna know what number you're

42:30

gonna pay each month for your car, use

42:32

Kelley Blue Book My Wallet on AutoTrader.

42:35

They're really good at numbers. AutoTrader.