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Big Money at Menards. The

1:30

day after my daughter was killed, I

1:33

walked in my house and I

1:35

said, I'm going to break the

1:37

effing gun lobby and everybody associated

1:39

with it. And I saw Joe

1:41

as somebody who I needed to

1:43

tear apart and demonize. I was

1:45

the political asshole. I was

1:47

the face of the Tea Party. Big

1:50

gun guy. I was Charlton Heston.

1:52

You'll get this gun from my

1:54

cold, dead hands. He

1:56

and I would go at each other on

1:58

Twitter and at each. other on TV

2:01

arguing and fighting about guns and it would

2:03

get personal. Until Joe did

2:05

something different and he said you

2:07

know we probably disagree on

2:09

everything but I respect the hell out of

2:12

what you're trying to do. And it wasn't

2:14

until we started to talk privately that I

2:16

realized Fred doesn't want to take away my

2:18

guns. But I want to work

2:21

with people like Joe to

2:23

tell this story so that we can

2:25

go out together and publicly

2:27

share there's a lot of things this

2:30

gun owner and this gun safety

2:32

guy agree upon that can save

2:34

lives. That's

2:36

Fred Gutenberg and Joe Walsh. Fred

2:39

Gutenberg's daughter was killed in the

2:41

Parkland school shooting. Joe

2:43

Walsh is a former Republican congressman,

2:45

Tea Party member, and ardent

2:48

supporter of the Second Amendment. They

2:50

were sworn enemies until a few years ago

2:53

and today they're touring the country

2:55

together. Bill, there's two

2:57

dads defending democracy. You

3:01

guys are terrific. You're doing the important

3:03

work that needs to be done now

3:06

and talk about communication. You came

3:08

from opposite sides of the political

3:10

spectrum. How far apart were you?

3:12

Very far, very far Alan. Still

3:15

are. Well, except for the

3:18

fact that I love you like family

3:20

now. Yeah, but

3:22

there are families who can't talk to each

3:24

other. We're trying to change that because here's

3:26

the thing. The day after my daughter was

3:29

killed, I walked in my

3:31

house and I said, I'm going to

3:33

break the effing gun lobby and everybody

3:35

associated with it. And Joe

3:38

was one of those guys who said a lot of

3:40

things that I thought were horrible and

3:42

who I needed to take on. But

3:45

then probably around February, March of 2021,

3:47

I started this effort to engage dads,

3:53

gun owners, people who it's okay

3:55

to have a gun. I want you to believe

3:58

in gun safety. to

4:00

sign this letter with a whole list

4:02

of proposals that I thought were respectful

4:04

of the Second Amendment and gun owners,

4:06

but also could reduce gun violence. Joe

4:10

and I did our usual back

4:12

and forth. And Alan, the context,

4:14

as you know, is I was

4:16

the political asshole. I was

4:18

the face of the Tea Party, big

4:20

gun guy. I was Charlton Heston.

4:22

You'll get this gun from my

4:24

cold, dead hands. And

4:27

then Fred's daughter is brutally

4:29

murdered at a school

4:31

six years ago. He

4:34

and I, Alan, would go at each

4:36

other on Twitter and at each other

4:38

on TV arguing and fighting

4:40

about guns. And it would get

4:43

personal like much of America does

4:45

today. And then a few years

4:47

ago, we decided to take our

4:50

fight private. Well,

4:52

who initiated that? Who suggested you

4:54

take it private? I'll say this,

4:56

Alan, because this is an important point. I

4:59

think I was the first one to

5:01

reach out to Fred to say, let's

5:03

talk privately. And the only reason I

5:05

say that, Alan, is I reached out

5:07

to about six gun

5:09

control, gun safety advocates. Fred

5:11

was one. And

5:13

no lie, Alan, the other five all

5:16

said, screw you, Joe

5:18

Walsh, you're a gun nut. I

5:21

want nothing to do with you. Fred was

5:23

the only one that said, okay, let's talk.

5:26

And what motivated you to want to

5:28

talk privately? Alan, this

5:30

was about the time and I voted

5:33

for Trump in 2016. And when Trump

5:35

got elected, and I

5:37

saw what he was, that

5:40

woke me up like a cold

5:42

slap, because people like me, tea

5:45

party right wing people like me had

5:48

helped get Trump elected. So

5:50

I pretty quickly then turned on Trump.

5:53

And the minute I began to turn

5:55

on Trump, Alan, I thought, look,

5:57

I've been a really divisive public. politician.

6:01

I now want to do something

6:03

about the divisiveness that I caused.

6:05

So I started reaching out to

6:07

folks on the other side privately.

6:10

Fred was one. And you, Fred,

6:12

you responded to that. Yeah. Whereas

6:14

the others didn't. What was it

6:16

that helped you respond? It's

6:19

why I always taught my kids, which

6:21

is really simple. It's easy to talk

6:23

to people who you agree with. It's

6:26

necessary and important to talk to those

6:29

who you don't agree with and

6:31

to work towards finding common ground because

6:33

that's how you go forward in a

6:36

civil society. And I couldn't

6:39

teach my kids that lesson and

6:41

not respond to Joe. Listen,

6:44

Alan, I'll tell you, I even before

6:46

Joe, I was engaging

6:49

in Joe Gnosis, somebody from NRA

6:51

media in some offline

6:53

conversations, trying to find a

6:56

way where we could work

6:58

together on this idea of let's just find

7:00

common ground on reducing gun violence. That

7:03

conversation ended the day where

7:05

that particular person went

7:07

on Twitter and said, Fred Gutberg

7:09

is now a public figure and

7:11

he's free to be gone after.

7:13

But I'll never stop engaging. And

7:15

I'll tell you why. Because

7:18

just disagreeing with people doesn't

7:21

mean the person who has a different

7:23

opinion is bad. It may

7:26

mean they need additional information. It

7:28

may mean they've gotten caught up

7:30

in something else. But what Joe and I

7:33

learned is really quite

7:35

simple. The process of talking helped

7:37

him to understand common

7:39

after what he

7:42

values, his weapons. And

7:44

what I've learned is there's things

7:46

we agree about in terms of

7:48

trying to reduce gun violence. Alan,

7:51

I was convinced before I began

7:53

to speak to Fred privately, I

7:56

was convinced that Fred Guttenberg wanted

7:58

to take away my guns.

8:01

And so we did, I did

8:03

what most of America does now,

8:06

we demonize the other side. Man,

8:09

I made a decent living doing that.

8:11

And it wasn't until we started to

8:14

talk privately that I realized Fred doesn't

8:16

want to take away my guns. But

8:18

I want to work with

8:20

people like Joe to

8:22

tell this story so that we

8:25

can go out together and publicly

8:27

share. There's a lot of things

8:29

this gun owner and this gun

8:31

safety guy agree upon that can

8:33

save lives. Alan,

8:38

here's sort of the thesis of what Fred and

8:40

I are doing with this

8:42

two dads defending democracy tour. Full

8:45

disclosure, we both are doing whatever we

8:47

can in our own lives to help

8:49

make sure Donald Trump is never elected

8:52

again. I'm a very high

8:54

profile never Trump. But

8:56

the whole point of this tour is, no matter

9:00

who wins in November, I

9:02

believe the country is going to be 100 times more

9:05

divided. And if we stay

9:07

on this road where we hate,

9:10

I mean, hate the people we disagree

9:12

with, I just

9:14

don't think our democracy can stand that

9:16

way. And so Fred and I are

9:18

trying to say to everybody around the

9:20

country as we go around, look, we

9:23

did it. It hasn't been easy, but we did

9:25

it. When you got together to

9:27

talk, what

9:30

was the nature of the talk? Were you

9:32

were you attempting to convince one another? Were

9:34

you just trying to make contact in a

9:36

human way? Talk about your family? What did

9:38

you talk about? Hey, Fred, I'll let you

9:41

start Fred. But Fred always makes the really

9:43

good point, Alan. Even though we

9:45

started to talk privately, we did not trust

9:47

each other right away. And

9:50

that is the point. The first time we

9:52

met, I enjoyed sitting with him and his

9:54

wife. We had a nice meal. We had

9:57

drinks. I didn't trust him. It

9:59

took time. And I

10:01

think in America, and Joe just made the

10:04

point, and it's what we're trying so hard

10:06

to do, we're trying

10:08

to tell people it is okay

10:11

to have differences of opinion. It

10:13

doesn't mean you have to hate the person

10:15

you have a difference of opinion from. Listen,

10:17

there is a side of this country right

10:19

now which is trying to convince this country

10:21

if we're not that you've got to

10:24

hate the other side. And Joe

10:26

and I are saying no, decency

10:28

and civility is the path forward for

10:30

democracy. And yes, we understand you've got

10:32

to listen to one another, and you've

10:34

got to trust one another. But

10:37

we all have people in our lives who we

10:39

love, we all love, or

10:42

I hope we love this country.

10:44

And you know what, we

10:46

have a chance still to not

10:48

go down the wrong path. But

10:50

Alan, on your specific question, we

10:53

had to get over the trust factor. And

10:56

that took a few conversations. But

10:58

I didn't go into it thinking, I

11:01

want to find common ground with this guy.

11:04

I thought, okay, that might be kind of cool. All

11:07

I wanted to do was I wanted to

11:09

understand why he felt the way he did

11:11

about guns. I wanted to know

11:13

where he was coming from. So

11:15

did you get into talk about the issues right

11:17

away? Did you find any

11:20

value in not talking about the issues, but

11:22

talking about yourselves and your families getting to

11:25

know one another, getting a feel for one

11:27

another? Was there any of that? That's

11:29

such a good question, Alan. I'd argue

11:32

that we did try to get to

11:34

know each other first, generally,

11:37

before we got into the

11:39

specifics of gun control measures.

11:42

And I think that made a big,

11:45

big difference by the time we did

11:47

get into specific gun

11:49

reform. That is accurate. And

11:51

what happened was we

11:53

kind of talked around the edges of the

11:55

issue, but the focus was just kind of

11:58

this effort. to

12:00

get to know one another, where the issue became

12:03

crystallized and something that was far

12:06

more openly discussed was

12:08

on the Friday before the Father's

12:10

Day weekend that year. Morning

12:14

Joe had both of us on because

12:16

they had become interested in what

12:19

they knew was this conversation taking

12:21

place between us because Joe and

12:23

I were actually open on Twitter

12:25

about the fact that we met. Hey

12:28

Fred, let me interrupt because Fred's about

12:30

to make a really important point Alan.

12:33

By this time Fred and I were

12:35

publicly talking about our outreach and

12:38

there were a lot of people saying, I don't

12:41

know if I can swear on your podcast Alan,

12:43

but there were a lot of people saying, what

12:45

the fuck is this? Joe

12:47

Walsh? Fred, because everybody loves Fred,

12:49

how can you not love Fred?

12:51

Fred Guttenberg is talking to Joe,

12:54

Tea Party Joe Walsh? Like

12:56

there was a lot of like, what's going

12:58

on? Go ahead Fred. So on

13:01

Morning Joe, Joe Walsh

13:03

brought the letter that

13:06

I was asking dads to sign with

13:08

a list of policy prescriptions and

13:11

said, you know, I've been telling you

13:13

and he was publicly that I

13:15

just, I can't sign it. There's things on here I don't

13:17

agree with. But then on Morning

13:20

Joe, he said, you know what? I'm

13:22

going to sign this thing. I brought

13:24

him to tears Alan on live TV.

13:26

I brought the son of a bitch

13:29

to tears. I didn't expect it and

13:31

I was completely moved. And

13:33

then this next crazy thing

13:35

happened. Joe Walsh and Joe

13:37

Scarborough, another gun guy, just started

13:40

going boss and forth on all the things

13:43

they would agree to, to reduce

13:45

gun violence. And it was all

13:47

the kind of stuff that if all we ever did is

13:49

talk to one another, we would have known. And

13:52

it was a beautiful experience and I just

13:55

truly thank them. What made you sign that

13:57

paper? Because there were items on

13:59

the paper. that you didn't agree with

14:01

and I think still don't agree with. Alan,

14:04

the vast majority of stuff on

14:06

that piece of paper, that petition

14:08

I disagreed with, but

14:10

as Fred was talking on live

14:12

TV about why this

14:15

letter from dads meant so much to him,

14:18

I got caught up in

14:20

his broader goal, which is just

14:22

to bring dads together. So I

14:25

thought the gesture of crazy Joe

14:27

Walsh, who disagrees with all this

14:29

stuff, agreeing to sign it, would

14:32

be a gesture that a lot of

14:34

America would appreciate. Talking to

14:36

Fred humanized him to me. I

14:39

knew his daughter was murdered in that

14:41

high school in Florida, but

14:44

to listen to Fred,

14:47

talk about Jamie, talk

14:49

about his daughter, talk about

14:51

what happened to her, talk about

14:54

how it's impacted her brother, Fred's

14:56

wife, the whole family. I

14:59

just, it really personalized the

15:02

issue for me, which

15:04

compelled me to

15:06

look more closely at the gun issue. I'm

15:10

interested, you talked about trust and

15:12

that seems to be such an important

15:15

part of communication. He's the

15:17

person who's telling you stuff, speaking

15:19

the truth. I think

15:22

Alan, I think your point of trust,

15:24

and this is what I talk about

15:26

publicly, Fred and I have been on

15:28

a lot of college campuses talking to

15:30

young people about this, and they're afraid

15:32

to do this. And

15:34

a big part of what we talk about is you've

15:36

got to sit down privately, sit

15:38

down with one person you disagree

15:41

with, just one person privately, and

15:44

listen to why they say they feel

15:46

the way they do, and

15:48

that will help you trust

15:51

where that person's coming from. On

15:54

the trust piece, there was

15:56

no ass-kissing between you and I. We

16:00

had real-handed discussion

16:04

about what we believe is causing the issue,

16:06

about what we believe is the right approach

16:08

to dealing with the issue, and we still

16:10

do. There was no BS. I

16:15

think the fact that there was no BS, even

16:18

though it sometimes made things uncomfortable,

16:22

actually helped to facilitate the trust. You

16:29

know, I'm thinking about what could be

16:31

holding people back on both sides

16:34

from making this contact and listening to

16:36

each other. Each

16:39

side is part of a community that

16:41

regards the other side as

16:43

the enemy, something

16:46

worthy of hate. There's

16:48

the fear, I think, that if I listen

16:50

to you, I'm liable

16:52

to lose my beliefs. I'm

16:54

liable to betray everything

16:56

that I and my friends believe. How

16:59

do you get past that? Alan, that's

17:01

a wonderful point. If I listen to

17:03

you and try to

17:06

engage with you and have conversation with

17:08

you right now, I say this as

17:10

a former congressman, my voters

17:12

are going to beat me up. I

17:15

say this as a former right-wing radio

17:17

guy. If I listen to you, my

17:20

audience is going to be mad at me

17:22

for reaching across the aisle. We've

17:26

incentivized people, Alan, not to do what

17:28

Fred and I have done. I'll

17:31

say this, and Joe and I have a

17:33

difference of opinion here. I'm

17:35

at a point, at least

17:37

until after the election, where

17:40

I'll engage anybody who

17:43

believes in democracy, Democrat, Republican,

17:45

and independent. I'm

17:47

at a point where I'm tuning

17:50

out MAGA for the next seven

17:52

months. Damn you, Fred. They don't

17:54

believe in democracy. As

17:56

long as this campaign goes on,

17:58

and as long as Because

18:01

that West Palm Bible

18:03

salesman exists as the leader

18:05

of that party, I don't

18:08

think there's an ability to

18:10

get them to listen to reason.

18:13

I think after the election, there is.

18:16

Joe feels differently than me. I will continue

18:18

to talk to the entire country, the

18:20

part that believes in democracy. I

18:23

don't think I can reach that

18:26

segment that identifies as MAGA

18:28

until after the election. Joe,

18:30

what about you? You come, Joe,

18:33

from that tribe. Are

18:35

they more likely to listen to you or less

18:37

likely? Much more

18:39

likely, Alan, to listen to me. They're

18:43

not going to listen to Fred. I love

18:45

you, Alan, all of that. They're not going to listen to you.

18:48

Yes, you're exactly right. Look,

18:51

I come from their world. I'm

18:53

a reformed MAGA gangbanger. I mean,

18:56

I left it, but

18:59

I still engage with these people

19:01

every single day. Part

19:05

of it is my Catholic guilt.

19:08

It's my penance. I helped

19:10

to inflame these folks. I'm

19:14

spending the rest of my life never giving

19:16

up on them. I believe

19:18

everybody is damn near reachable. I'll

19:21

continue to reach out to

19:24

MAGA. I get why Fred shouldn't focus

19:26

on that right now. But

19:28

look, Alan, as you know,

19:30

this is a sizable percentage of our

19:32

population. I think Trump

19:34

is a

19:37

criminal and a traitor, but

19:39

I will never demean his supporters because

19:41

I was one of them. Does

19:43

that make sense? I think as long as

19:46

he's on the stage, they can't be reached.

19:48

I think when he's off the stage, they

19:50

can. Well, you do, though. You do. Sometimes

19:53

you do. And I call them maggots. You're

19:56

right. That doesn't sound like

19:58

a good opening. And you're not.

20:02

Alan, here's the way I look at it. I

20:05

think the vast majority of Americans

20:08

are on this dangerous road

20:10

of I hate the

20:13

person who disagrees with me. I

20:15

don't want to deal with the person who disagrees

20:17

with me. I don't care why they think

20:19

the way they think. I

20:21

want to destroy them. And eventually all of

20:24

that leads to violence. MAGA,

20:26

where I come from, is

20:29

further down that road. But

20:32

my good friends on the left, too many of

20:34

them are on that road too. When

20:43

we come back from our break, I talk

20:45

with Fred Gutenberg and Joe Walsh about some

20:47

of the tension that still exists between them,

20:50

even while they're on their two dads for

20:52

democracy tour. This

20:57

program is sponsored by the Caudley

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This is clear and vivid and now

22:28

back to my conversation with the two

22:31

dads defending democracy Fred Gutenberg

22:33

and Joe Walsh. I wanted

22:35

to explore further whether one of the reasons

22:37

for the division in our country Is

22:40

a lack of empathy for people with a different point

22:42

of view There

22:45

is this tremendous divide that's fueled

22:47

by hate. The solution to that

22:49

in some part could be more

22:51

empathy To understand what the other

22:53

person's going through but let

22:56

me ask you Joe because I've heard people

22:58

on the left talk about how we should

23:00

consider more what the Disturbance

23:03

is felt by the MAGA

23:05

people. They're outraged because they've

23:07

been neglected and set

23:09

aside Is that

23:11

a legitimate way to look at it? Are

23:14

we really empathizing with the right thing? I

23:17

think Alan your description of the

23:19

average MAGA person out there is

23:21

spot-on these were my

23:24

friends my supporters my voters my

23:26

followers and And

23:28

to generalize these

23:30

are middle-aged older white folk

23:33

Who feel like life

23:36

is changing every stinking

23:38

day. They don't understand

23:40

the change They're

23:43

afraid they're scared. They're angry

23:45

They're concerned and

23:47

they don't believe their political

23:49

system has listened to them So

23:52

then along comes a

23:55

demagogue like Donald Trump

23:58

and man He says I'm gonna build a world wall

24:00

and keep those people out. And

24:02

when he said that, Alan, all these people

24:04

to me said, finally,

24:07

somebody's listening to me. We

24:10

ignored them for years instead of

24:12

teaching them and working

24:14

with them. Now they're fully

24:17

prey to a demagogue. So

24:19

Fred, when you talk to a MAGA person,

24:22

do you feel that empathy for them?

24:25

So it's a great question. The very

24:27

first stop on our

24:29

two dads tour in Delaware, there

24:32

was a MAGA person who

24:34

kind of got worked up in

24:36

the crowd and Joe

24:38

did a terrific job of talking to

24:40

him. But as soon as the talk

24:42

ended, the first person I

24:45

went up to wasn't

24:47

everyone else. It was that MAGA

24:49

guy. I wanted to

24:51

talk to him. I wanted

24:53

him to know that we

24:55

both love our country. I wanted him to know

24:58

he could talk to me. And

25:00

this is where the issue for me came

25:02

in. MAGA as a group

25:04

right now has come to a place

25:07

where facts are not part of a

25:09

conversation anymore. When I was talking to

25:11

this guy, it was

25:13

a discussion of facts

25:16

as I know them and I know they

25:19

are facts, versus what he

25:21

wanted to tell me about

25:23

what he believed, which none of it was

25:25

true. And so it

25:28

is the challenge of I

25:30

am empathetic. I want to have these

25:32

conversations. But we're dealing on two

25:34

different universes right now. And until that demagogue

25:36

is off the stage, I don't know how

25:38

to fix that. And

25:41

I'll say and Ellen, I'll say bullshit

25:43

to my friend Fred, because

25:45

I love my friend Fred,

25:47

my good dear friend. I

25:49

don't think Fred has natural

25:51

empathy for them. And I understand

25:53

why he doesn't. I

25:56

do because it's my family. And

25:59

since the 2020, election, probably

26:01

80% of the MAGA

26:03

folks I engage with every day still

26:06

tell me that Trump won the election in

26:08

2020. But what I do

26:11

with them is I listen to them. Why

26:13

do you think that way? I try

26:16

to put little nuggets of truth in front of

26:18

them. Most of

26:20

them won't change their minds, but

26:22

every now and then if you

26:24

take the time to listen to

26:26

why they feel that way, you

26:28

can go. I'm not

26:31

good at that. That was harsh Fred. I'm sorry.

26:33

I shouldn't have said you have no empathy. No,

26:35

no, it's all good because I think this is

26:37

an important point. I do have empathy. I have

26:40

empathy for everyone and I will talk to anyone.

26:42

I stand by that. However,

26:44

it is MAGA that has said things

26:46

to me like you're a gun grabber.

26:49

Every time that demagogue said

26:52

things about the

26:54

gun grabbers and the Second Amendment on a

26:56

public stage, I got death threats.

26:58

It is MAGA who has said things

27:00

to me like I am politicizing

27:03

my daughter's death and dancing on

27:05

her grave. This guy in Delaware,

27:07

who they think they understand more

27:10

about why my daughter died than

27:12

I do and they want to

27:14

criticize me. So I

27:16

have empathy, but I also don't like the bullshit.

27:19

I Fred and I get that and

27:22

again, I don't know that you're

27:24

the best messenger for that. Just

27:26

like Ellen, the

27:28

hate and threats I got, the old

27:30

tea party Joe Walsh got from the

27:32

left would scare anybody

27:35

here. The problem is that's

27:38

growing on both sides and

27:41

it's dangerous. You mentioned the

27:43

one guy at the University of Delaware.

27:45

How common is it to find people

27:47

from MAGA at the events where you

27:49

speak? It's Ellen. It's probably mostly non

27:52

MAGA, but we'll get a handful

27:54

of MAGA at each event. We've only done a

27:56

couple of events so far, but we have a

27:58

bunch more to come. And I think

28:01

we're going to start seeing more MAGA

28:04

at more of the events because we're

28:06

listen, we're trying to get out to

28:08

communities across America, not just blue, not

28:11

just those who believe in democracy. We are

28:13

really trying to engage everyone because the key

28:15

premise of what we're trying to do is

28:17

whether you agree with each other or not,

28:20

it's okay to talk. And

28:23

so this tour that

28:25

we've begun, we

28:27

anticipate getting more balanced

28:30

audiences because we come from

28:33

different sides. Everybody

28:35

needs to see this,

28:38

we believe. Is

28:44

there something that you so disagree on

28:47

that it brings you to anger? Yes,

28:49

still. And by the way, this

28:51

brings me to anger and Fred knows this, we

28:54

cannot be partisan in these

28:56

presentations. We're on college campuses.

28:59

The colleges invite us, and they

29:01

specifically say, this better not be

29:03

a vote for Joe Biden rally

29:06

and Trump sucks kind of rally.

29:09

And I am constantly pushing

29:11

us away from that. I

29:13

love my friend Fred, but

29:16

he's a good partisan Democrat. And every

29:18

now and then he falls off the

29:20

wagon in these presentations and says, damn

29:22

it, because it's the only way that

29:24

the markets do it. No, no, no,

29:26

I know. See, there he goes again.

29:30

But they know where we

29:32

are coming from. They know I'm a high

29:34

profile, never Trump or we cannot

29:37

get into that. It's about us.

29:39

It's not about Trump or Biden.

29:42

What did the guy get angry at, at the

29:44

University of Delaware? What set him off?

29:46

I said on stage, Gen Z needs

29:49

a lovable kick in the ass. Gen

29:51

Z needs a kick in the ass.

29:54

He jumped up Alan and he thought

29:56

I said, Maga needs a kick

29:58

in the ass. And we went

30:00

back and forth for a few minutes, and

30:02

then I jumped off of the stage and went

30:05

up to him and told him who I was

30:07

talking about. But Alan,

30:09

it was so fascinating because it

30:11

was endemic of our political dialogue

30:13

today. It was a

30:16

simple misunderstanding, and it

30:18

set off a big feud. But until you

30:20

jumped up, you kept trying

30:22

to explain to him, and the

30:24

ability to listen didn't exist in that moment. Well,

30:27

you know what, Fred? It didn't exist until

30:29

I jumped off the stage and went down

30:32

and put my arm around him and

30:34

just had a conversation with him. Alan,

30:37

I think about seven or eight minutes

30:39

ago, you said the key word to

30:41

this whole discussion, and weirdly, it's not

30:43

hate. You emphasized

30:45

fear. I

30:47

think that's so spot on. Virtually

30:50

every MAGA person I speak

30:52

to privately is afraid.

30:56

So many folks on the left, when I

30:58

speak to them privately and we talk about

31:00

the other part of the country, I hear

31:04

a fear. I

31:06

think we're so afraid of, as

31:08

you said, oh, these

31:11

beliefs I've held, or this is

31:14

what they told me on MSNBC

31:16

or Fox News. I need

31:18

to reevaluate that. There's a fear. I'll

31:21

agree with you both. Listen,

31:24

you know who understands the nature of fear

31:26

better than anyone, and it's why he

31:29

keeps doing what he does? The

31:32

demagogue. I mean, he gets it.

31:34

He knows how to stop fear.

31:37

He knows how to push people's

31:39

buttons, create fear on both sides.

31:41

I as a guy who doesn't

31:43

like him or support him, I

31:46

worry when everyone is arming

31:50

themselves to the hilt on that side

31:52

of the population and talks

31:54

about Second Amendment solutions. Fear

31:58

is a part of all of this. on both sides.

32:01

I agree. And Alan, again,

32:04

to reiterate, my side

32:06

of the right is further

32:08

down this road of fear. But

32:11

I think we're all on the road. Yeah, yeah, we got

32:13

to get out of it. My

32:16

fear is that we're reaching the end of our

32:18

time here and I have to

32:20

end our conversation for now. But

32:22

I'm so glad you guys are out

32:24

there having this conversation with each other

32:26

and with the rest of us in

32:28

the country. It's so important. I

32:31

can't think of anybody doing more

32:33

important work because it's personal. It's

32:35

one on one. It's the way we can come

32:38

to know our neighbors and

32:40

our fellow citizens again as

32:42

people who it's okay to argue

32:44

with. It's good to have an

32:47

opposing opinion. It's not necessary

32:49

to hate. So

32:51

thank you for what you're doing. We always end

32:53

every show with seven quick questions. And

32:56

because there are two of you, let's make them

32:58

quick answers to it. Good. Fred.

33:02

Fred's laughing. Okay. Of

33:06

all the things that I understand, what

33:08

do you wish you really understood, Fred?

33:12

What do I wish I really understood?

33:15

Yeah. How democracy could

33:19

be so at risk. Okay. How

33:21

about you, Joe? I

33:23

wish I understood more if there really is

33:25

life after death. Hmm. Okay,

33:28

Fred, how do you tell someone they have

33:30

their facts wrong? We sort of already covered

33:32

this, but so you can summarize it. After

33:35

my daughter was killed, I started

33:38

telling my wife and my son, I coined

33:41

the phrase permission to be honest because people

33:44

would always come up to us and say

33:46

things like, how are you doing? You

33:48

look like you're doing so well. And

33:51

it was because they needed us to make them

33:53

feel better. And it was,

33:55

it was, I hated it when people did that.

33:58

And I started telling people the truth. And

34:01

if you're going to ask me a question like

34:03

that, I'm going to tell you the honest answer.

34:05

I think the easiest way to answer your question is

34:08

to tell you always be honest.

34:11

Okay, good. Joe, how about you? I

34:14

would answer it with a question, Alan. I'd

34:16

say, why do you believe that fact? I'd

34:19

want to know why they believe what they believe

34:21

first. Okay, next question. What's

34:24

the strangest question anyone has ever asked

34:27

you? I

34:29

still get this one. Have you always hated

34:31

America? It's

34:38

still strange to me that people would ask

34:40

that, but I always get that. How about

34:42

you, Fred? People who question

34:45

whether or not my daughter was really killed. Is

34:48

she really dead? Yeah. Here's

34:51

one that I don't think will fit into

34:53

the conversation we've been having before. How

34:55

do you deal with a compulsive talker? I

34:58

started having drinks with them. Joe Wolf. Alan,

35:01

you accuse each other of being compulsive talkers.

35:03

I love that. Because

35:05

I know him now, I whack him upside the

35:07

head when I think he's going on and on.

35:10

If I don't know the person real

35:12

well, I'll ask that person a question

35:14

to try to interrupt their train of

35:17

thought. Okay, now

35:19

another just ordinary human situation. You're sitting next

35:21

to someone at a dinner table who you've

35:23

never met before. How

35:25

do you begin a genuine conversation? That's

35:30

a great question. Joe, we kind of dealt with this

35:32

a little bit more at U

35:34

Penn, where we encourage people to start

35:36

talking to people they don't know. I

35:41

think, listen, I make a

35:43

habit of trying to engage

35:45

people who I don't know because I just think

35:48

it makes both of us better

35:50

if we do. There's

35:54

nothing easier than just saying,

35:56

hey, my name is...how are

35:59

you doing today? And Alan, because

36:01

I'm an Irish Catholic boy, I'd ask them

36:03

first, what are you drinking? I'd

36:05

want to know what they're drinking. And then I always want

36:07

to know where people come from. Where are you from? Yeah,

36:11

that often brings up stories of

36:13

childhood and families. Okay,

36:15

next question. What gives you

36:17

confidence? I'll

36:21

go first. Traveling

36:23

this country, talking to people

36:25

everywhere I go, red or blue, doesn't

36:27

matter. We all have people who we

36:29

love. And I think that's going to drive us ultimately

36:32

to do the right thing. Alan,

36:34

young people, I'm a dark Irishman.

36:36

I believe the American experiment is

36:39

in real jeopardy of continuing. But

36:41

every time I talk to a

36:43

young person, I get hopeful. Good.

36:46

Last question. What

36:48

book changed your life? Thanks. For

36:51

me, it was

36:54

the one that I wrote, not the second one,

36:56

the first one, Find the Helpers, and I will

36:58

tell you why. When

37:01

I was planning Jamie's funeral, the

37:04

funeral advisor

37:07

handed me a journal to have you

37:09

ever journaled before? And I said,

37:12

No, he goes, take this as a gift and

37:14

promise me you'll start. And I

37:17

spent the next few months journaling every day.

37:19

And then in April of 18, I

37:22

told my wife, I want to write a book. And

37:24

what you need to know is four months before my daughter

37:26

was killed, my brother died of

37:28

cancer related to his service in 9-11. My

37:30

brother ran the triage for the World Trade

37:32

Center. I wanted to

37:35

write a book about our stories involved

37:37

in these two American tragedies. But

37:39

what changed my life in the process of writing

37:41

the book is the realization

37:44

there's nothing I've ever been a part

37:46

of or nothing I've ever done that

37:48

wasn't that didn't involve other

37:51

amazing people. I always

37:53

looked at things that I did is about me.

37:56

It wasn't until I wrote that book that

37:59

I actually was able to start thinking

38:01

in terms of everyone else in a

38:04

far deeper way and my

38:07

whole world now is about my helpers. It's about the

38:09

people who help me get through things but

38:11

it's also about the responsibility we all have

38:13

to be helpers to others. Alan,

38:16

my book it's called The Razor's

38:19

Edge, Somerset Maugham. It's about a

38:21

young man who fought in World

38:23

War One. He became disillusioned and

38:25

he spent the rest of his

38:27

life trying to find the meaning

38:29

of life. I love that

38:31

book. Well I sure

38:33

have loved talking to you both. You

38:36

give me confidence, you give me hope. I

38:38

wish you the best. I hope the people who

38:40

have been listening to us talk have

38:43

taken inspiration from your lives.

38:45

It was an honor. Hey Alan, can I

38:47

say one thing to you? Not

38:49

just your career but thank you for your

38:52

whole life in being

38:54

an outspoken activist and advocate for

38:56

what you believe in. Thank you.

38:59

Thank you. And I just want

39:01

to say having watched

39:03

you over the course of my

39:06

life, I was

39:08

thrilled when you reached out. Yeah but

39:10

yeah but Fred, be honest. Who did

39:12

you tell me a week ago was

39:14

your favorite character on MASH? It wasn't

39:16

Alan Alderman. We didn't have that radar.

39:19

Yeah, that's an alternative fact.

39:22

Okay, thank you. Thank you guys. Take care

39:24

guys. Bye bye. This

39:33

has been clear and vivid. At least

39:35

I hope so. My thanks

39:37

to the Coddly Foundation for sponsoring

39:39

this episode. The Coddly Foundation is

39:42

dedicated to advancing science for the

39:44

benefit of humanity. Fred

39:47

Gutenberg's 14 year old daughter Jamie was one

39:49

of the 17 people killed in

39:51

the 2018 Parkland school shooting.

39:54

With his wife Jennifer he created

39:57

a nonprofit called Orange Ribbons for

39:59

Jamie. and a second organization

40:01

called Orange Ribbons for Gun Safety.

40:04

Joe Walsh served the term in Congress from 2011 to

40:06

2013 as

40:10

the Republican representative for Illinois' 8th

40:12

District. Since then, he's been

40:14

a talk radio host and now hosts

40:16

the podcast White Flag with Joe Walsh.

40:20

Together, Fred and Joe created a

40:22

Two Dads defending democracy tour, which

40:25

will be hitting some half dozen or more

40:27

college campuses in the fall and beyond. This

40:30

episode was edited and produced by

40:33

our executive producer, Graham Shed, with

40:35

help from our associate producer, Gene

40:37

Chumay. Our publicist is

40:40

Sarah Hill. Our researcher

40:42

is Elizabeth Ohini, and

40:44

the sound engineer is Erica Huang. The

40:47

music is courtesy of the Stefan-Kernig

40:49

Trio. Next

41:00

in our series of conversations, we have

41:02

the first of four special episodes marking

41:04

this year's awarding of the Cauley Prize.

41:08

It will feature two previous winners of

41:10

the prize for neuroscience, Marcus

41:12

Rakel, who discovered that our brains

41:14

never rest, and Carla Schatz,

41:16

who would love to find a way to keep

41:19

our brains young. I find myself

41:21

puzzling about things, and

41:24

what's so interesting is

41:26

that oftentimes, suggestions pop

41:28

out in curious ways,

41:31

and all I can think about is I planted

41:33

a seed in my brain some

41:35

way or other, and it continues

41:38

to work on this problem, despite

41:42

whatever else I'm doing in the meantime,

41:45

and it then speaks back

41:48

to me in some curious way.

41:51

Looking at centiogenarians

41:54

who are healthy agers who seem

41:56

to manage even at the age of 100 plus to be. to

42:00

have healthy brains is to ask what's

42:02

in their genome that is different from

42:04

the rest of us that allows them

42:07

to maintain their mental

42:09

sharpness even as

42:11

they age. And so I'm hoping

42:13

the next 10 years, not longer,

42:17

will be yielding some

42:19

important clues that could become something

42:21

that we could go to the grocery store for.

42:24

Marcus Rakel and Carla Schatz, next

42:27

time on Clear and Vivid. For

42:30

more details about Clear and Vivid and to

42:32

sign up for my newsletter, please

42:35

visit alanalda.com. And

42:37

you can also find us on Facebook

42:39

and Instagram at Clear and Vivid. Thanks

42:42

for listening. Bye-bye. Hey,

42:56

everybody. It's Rob Lowe here. If you

42:58

haven't heard, I

43:00

have a podcast that's

43:02

called Literally with Rob Lowe. And

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basically, it's conversations I've

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