0:01

Welcome to ClickFunnels Radio, the podcast that

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brings you the latest strategies, insights, and

0:06

success stories from online marketers just like

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you who utilize funnels to grow their

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business. Our mission is simple,

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to help you unleash the true potential

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of your online business by harnessing the

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power of funnels. Join

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us every week as we bring you

0:22

exclusive interviews and thought-provoking discussions that will

0:24

revolutionize the way you approach online marketing.

0:27

Here are your hosts, Chris Cameron

0:29

and Ben Harris. Welcome

0:31

back to ClickFunnels Radio. My name is Chris Cameron

0:33

and joining with me always is

0:35

the co-host with the most, Mr. Ben

0:37

Harris. What's up, my friend? Chris,

0:41

I'm having a good time today, filled

0:43

with meetings, and I couldn't be more excited for this

0:45

one. It was going to, I knew it was going

0:47

to be the highlight of my day and then now

0:49

we're here. So it's actually all happening. Look

0:52

at this, joining us live,

0:54

and I think this is episode number

0:56

720, but joining us live

0:58

from the Dallas, Texas area is the

1:01

one and only Holly Homer and let me

1:03

tell you, we just, it was so much

1:05

fun, Holly too. Welcome out, by the

1:07

way. It's so

1:09

much fun too, is like realizing

1:12

like we totally know each other and then

1:14

where we've crossed paths. You've been on cruises

1:16

with Ben, like we've been in Mexico together

1:18

at different masterminds and stuff. And so it's

1:20

really fun to get you

1:22

on here and kind of talk about this journey

1:24

because we've crossed paths a little bit, but you've

1:26

been doing so many cool things from

1:29

being a blogger to actually

1:31

doing software. My goodness, building

1:33

email lists. So anyways, welcome

1:35

out. Good to have you. Thank

1:37

you so much. Yeah, I know it's like

1:39

a really weird path, but that's kind of

1:41

how life is these days. Yeah,

1:44

it is. And the funnel world

1:46

is kind of small. Like you end up, you

1:48

know, kind of crossing paths with people. But, but

1:50

we always love to find out like

1:52

what led you to, for lack of a

1:55

better term, being a funnel hacker or

1:57

like funnel land. Like what were you

1:59

doing? was this something that you always want to do?

2:01

Or like, I'm going to be an entrepreneur. I'm going to be

2:03

a blogger. Like, where did this start and how did you get

2:05

here? No, like, so

2:08

my entire story is like, oops,

2:10

by accident. Happy

2:13

little accidents like Bob Ross, right? Yes,

2:16

exactly. So no, like, my

2:18

previous life, you know, I use the

2:20

air quotes, is I was

2:22

a physical therapist and,

2:24

you know, helped put

2:26

my husband through medical school. And

2:29

so, but I always said when we had kids, I

2:31

wanted to be a stay at home mom. So

2:33

as soon as he finally was gainfully

2:35

employed, we had children and I stayed

2:38

at home. And I

2:40

had three little boys and I was completely

2:42

overwhelmed and felt super isolated because when you

2:44

have one or two kids, you can like

2:46

pop them into the car and go places.

2:48

But when you have three. By the way,

2:50

Holly, I feel you right now. I have four boys

2:53

from 17 down to seven. So I

2:55

feel you. Keep going. Yes. So

2:57

I have three boys. So you're

2:59

an overachiever, but my wife is.

3:02

Yes. So anyway, so

3:04

I was emailing with one of my friends

3:06

from college who had two little boys, kind

3:08

of the same age as my older ones.

3:11

And we were writing these really long emails back

3:13

and forth. This is about 20 years ago. And

3:16

this was going on for like almost

3:18

a year. And it was kind of

3:20

like what got me through the week.

3:23

You know, like I could just like

3:25

pour out my heart on Saturday mornings

3:27

and I'd send out this really long

3:29

email. And by the way, at that

3:31

time, I was asking my husband to

3:33

download my email for me. I had

3:36

no idea that happened like automatically. So

3:39

this is the level of class. I'm

3:43

going to ask my wife that and just see how she

3:45

responds. Will you help me download my email? I

3:47

know. So I mean, he's very

3:49

sweet to not make fun of me. But

3:51

now I'm like, what was he thinking when

3:53

I'm like asking him to do this for

3:56

me? But anyway, so Jodi, my friend, one

3:58

Saturday morning, the subject line is. I

4:00

think we need to stop emailing. And

4:03

I was like, no,

4:06

this is like this. This is what's keeping

4:08

me sane. I opened up the

4:10

email and she said, I've been

4:13

emailing with another friend. Well,

4:16

hello. I thought I was the only one. The

4:20

second part of that, she said, so it

4:22

would be easier for me if we all

4:24

started blogs. And she, like,

4:27

she said, you need to go to

4:29

like blogspot.com and fill out the form,

4:31

give us a context, like what year

4:33

is this? So this is 20 years

4:35

ago. Um, yeah. So

4:39

like, I mean, yeah, so I was

4:41

like, I inadvertently started one of the

4:43

first mom blogs. No

4:45

kidding. Holy cow. Yeah. Yeah. So

4:48

I went to blogspot and I, you

4:50

know, you had to name your blog.

4:52

And so I named it June Cleaver

4:54

Nirvana. Um, cause I

4:56

just thought like, I have like this

4:58

kind of traditional non-traditional thing going on.

5:01

And I became a blogger that

5:03

day. And what was

5:05

really cool is I had been making like,

5:08

at that time, it was like in the

5:10

heyday of scrapbooking. That's how long ago it

5:12

was. Is I would,

5:14

had been making multiple books. And so I was

5:17

just a baby. Yeah.

5:19

Like I had just been making multiple books

5:21

to send to my mom and stuff. So

5:23

I like, this is going to save me

5:25

so much money on scrapbooking. So

5:29

basically I just started like posting

5:31

pictures. I like, I'm a science

5:33

background. I had never written anything.

5:36

So I just had like writing a sentence

5:38

and posting a picture. And I told my

5:40

mom and my aunt about it and I,

5:42

my friend Jody. So I started with three

5:45

readers. And, um,

5:47

about three weeks in, I got a

5:50

comment from someone that was not those,

5:52

one of those three people. And

5:55

I like, I clicked through to,

5:57

um, her name was Megan

5:59

and her. Megan Megan had a blog

6:01

too. And this is when I realized

6:04

I wasn't the only Yeah

6:09

What would you blog about in a blog? Yeah,

6:11

I did a little sad blog without

6:13

ever reading a blog or knowing what it

6:15

was But I and so the early

6:17

years was really stories about me and

6:19

the boys. I was kind of like Kind

6:23

of Seinfeld Ian, you know, cuz it's

6:25

like Words about nothing long

6:28

periods of nothing in Seldian

6:30

I like that but It

6:33

was really cool because I it

6:35

really early on I felt like it

6:37

was almost therapeutic in a

6:39

way that I could like stand

6:43

back when chaos was happening in my

6:45

house and look at a Perspective of

6:48

how am I gonna write about this in

6:50

a way that is like has a silver

6:52

lighting or is funny or something like that

6:54

So it really did help me not like

6:56

be in the moment of like, you

6:58

know Just reacting but kind of being able to stand back

7:00

and say there has to be something funny about this that

7:03

I can write about Can I

7:05

can I ask you a question like midstream here? Yeah

7:08

So you're doing this why like are you

7:10

doing this just as an outlet? Like hey,

7:13

I just need to get words and thoughts

7:15

out of my brain Out

7:17

into the internet or anything like that or did

7:19

you have like a goal? Like I'm gonna monetize

7:22

this or I'm gonna like try to help, you

7:24

know people do a certain thing What was the

7:26

purpose like what kept you going? I

7:28

have no idea Yeah,

7:31

and back then no one was monetizing

7:33

at all Like I like I don't

7:35

even know that Martha Stewart or like

7:37

those early sites were even monetized at

7:39

that point because this was before Anything

7:43

I mean, this is you know, probably

7:46

five years before Facebook six years before

7:48

Facebook even was invented Twitter came along

7:50

several years later and So

7:53

it and actually I think for me

7:55

it was kind of at the community

7:57

because those the early blocks

8:00

were kind of social media-esque

8:03

in that, you know, like I would,

8:05

I'm, you know, when I got, you know, to

8:07

be kind of a well-known blogger in that space,

8:09

I might get like 300

8:12

visitors to my, to that post

8:14

every day, but I would get

8:16

200 comments because that's how

8:18

we were interacting with each other

8:20

before social media came about. Wow.

8:24

Okay. So that evolved into you

8:27

kind of like doing activity blogs and

8:29

that type of stuff, like what

8:31

are you doing today and how did you get there? Yeah.

8:34

So I realized, so I did that

8:36

until the kids started going to school.

8:39

And, um, I had this realization moment

8:41

when I was in the car line,

8:44

one of their teachers came out and,

8:47

um, said, you know, started talking to

8:49

me about something that I had written

8:51

about that child on the blog. And

8:54

then I realized, oh my gosh,

8:56

these aren't my stories anymore. And

9:00

then I had a crisis because. I

9:03

mean, I have no, I have nothing but

9:05

these children right now. Like my whole world

9:07

is these children. So if I can't write

9:09

about them because their stories aren't really mine,

9:11

then like, what am I going

9:14

to say? And so it kind of

9:16

worked out that like kids, what

9:18

is now kids activities blog. And this

9:20

is what's kind of a crazy, um,

9:22

full circle moment was started. Um, it

9:24

was originally called quirky mama and it

9:27

was started by Rachel Miller. And

9:29

I bought that. Yeah. I bought that

9:31

blog from Rachel Miller 13 or 14 years ago.

9:35

And, um, because yeah, I saw what

9:37

she was doing. She wasn't talking personally

9:40

about her children. She was

9:42

writing about how to do kind

9:44

of traditional play crafts and activities.

9:46

So I thought that's a way

9:48

I can still be creative and still be

9:50

in that community without like, I

9:53

don't know, embarrassing my children on the internet

9:55

daily. Yeah. One

9:57

quick question. It might derail us, but. you

10:00

have me hooked. Did you still email back and

10:02

forth with your friend? What happened here? No,

10:05

we all started blogging. So her

10:07

and her friend and me. And

10:10

the funny thing is, is Jodi,

10:13

and I haven't talked to Jodi for probably 10 years,

10:15

but the first two or three years,

10:18

she'd leave comments on my blog. And then

10:21

about five years in, she wrote me an

10:23

email and said, I can't believe you're still

10:25

blogging. I gave it up years ago. Jodi,

10:28

if you're out there listening, reach out to Holly.

10:30

We want to hear from you. That's

10:33

right. She wants to hear from you. Yeah.

10:35

I do. Where are you, Jodi?

10:38

Oh my gosh. That's

10:40

crazy. So, you know, at

10:42

some point though, you have started to

10:44

monetize. And this has grown

10:47

from blogging to even

10:49

a software. And you've become extremely

10:51

good at building an email list

10:54

and also, you know, keeping that

10:56

active. What was the transition then

10:58

let's first start maybe with monetization?

11:01

Yeah. So in the early days,

11:04

once I saw that somebody was

11:06

monetizing, and you have to remember,

11:08

I had run a physical therapy

11:10

clinic and I'd done budgets and

11:13

I've always been a math and

11:16

statistics girl. So like

11:18

I just, when I saw these things happening,

11:20

I was like, well, if

11:22

someone's going to make money on this, I'm going to.

11:24

I mean, like, this sounds fun to

11:26

me. And, you know, I'm like staying

11:29

at home and it would be kind of

11:31

cool. The luxury of staying at

11:33

home and doing this without having to like,

11:35

you know, spend money and stuff like that.

11:37

So like, I was like, anything extra would

11:39

be kind of cool. I'd be able to

11:41

use it, you know, for some fun stuff.

11:43

You know, wouldn't be taking it out of

11:45

the family coffers. So I just

11:47

thought I'd try it. And so I

11:49

like, in the early years, I had

11:52

all sorts of websites. I did She

11:54

Is Dallas, which was a local

11:56

site for moms in Dallas. I

11:59

started the first. to business that

12:01

connected bloggers with businesses that wanted

12:03

bloggers to write about them called

12:06

business to blogger and I

12:08

I like set that up based on Haro

12:11

the helper reporter out where we sent out

12:13

an email Where you

12:15

could you know start out as an email

12:17

of all these people wanting? bloggers

12:19

to you know either to do it

12:21

in exchange for freebies or or money

12:23

and so and then When

12:26

like I was involved in some

12:28

of the early early blogger campaigns

12:31

When when I was I was

12:33

involved in one of the local one

12:35

of the first bloggers Campaigns

12:38

was run by Chevy Where

12:40

they put bloggers in the car and Chevy

12:42

cars for a week and just let us

12:44

kind of do whatever we wanted to And

12:47

then they were like we just can't

12:50

find bloggers and I was running DFW

12:52

bloggers at that time which I had over 500

12:55

bloggers on my list and so I was

12:57

like Oh, I'll just run your blogger campaigns

12:59

for you And so I was actually working

13:01

like alongside Chevy in those early days Putting

13:05

bloggers into cars and stuff like that because like

13:07

we didn't know what this was gonna look like

13:09

You know in those early days like people be like

13:11

hey You want to try this

13:13

and I'd be like that sounds like fun sure and

13:16

yeah It wasn't a whole lot of money in it

13:18

at that point Because

13:20

like we didn't know the impact but I

13:22

don't know I just saw I just well

13:24

first if it was fun And

13:26

then second of all I just really felt

13:28

like if you know as the foundation of

13:31

all this started It was gonna

13:33

lead to monetization in ways that we couldn't imagine

13:36

Well in blogging we can get in

13:38

the other stuff in a second, but I have let's fast-forward

13:40

right let's fast-forward. It's 2024 Yeah,

13:43

somebody's kind of getting in online Would

13:46

you suggest that somebody still starts with

13:48

blogging is that an older notion like

13:51

it feels like it's maybe an older thing But can

13:53

it still be successful would you suggest somebody starting a

13:55

blog and doing this is there a revival happening like

13:57

what's going on with blogs? in 2024 Yeah,

14:00

I mean, you know, it's funny, we,

14:03

you know, well, and it's not

14:05

like Russell has said this from the

14:07

stage anytime blogging is dead. But

14:10

I always laugh because I'm sitting in

14:12

the, in the, in the, in the

14:14

room, making my living off of blogging.

14:16

That's what feeds my family. So

14:19

it's not dead in 2024. I

14:21

mean, blogging, making your money,

14:23

making money on the internet in general,

14:25

whether it be blogging or anything is

14:28

going to be the most massive roller

14:30

coaster you've ever seen. And,

14:32

and so one of the ways to stabilize

14:34

that is to have multiple streams of income,

14:37

which, but I would

14:39

say I still, you know, my blog

14:41

gets, you know, between a million and

14:43

2 million page views a month. Yeah,

14:45

that's a mess. That's a lot

14:47

of traffic. Whether

14:50

it's like, okay, they're just, you know, they're

14:52

just, I'm monetizing with, you know, ads and

14:54

stuff like that. But also, hey, I'm selling

14:56

by my own products. I'm selling affiliate products

14:58

and all those kinds of things. I'm emailing.

15:01

That was going to be my next question is like, how are you

15:03

monetizing? Is it ads like maybe you can dive into that a little

15:05

more? Yeah, for me, it's still

15:08

the majority of it is still the

15:10

advertisements. So you see in my sidebar

15:12

and in, in contact in

15:15

context, the, the

15:18

blogging has gotten really advanced in the last

15:20

few years in that we, I used to

15:22

have to like manage that all. So myself

15:25

through like, you know, Google ads and Google

15:27

DFP and all these like sell ads

15:30

like I used to sell ads to

15:32

people like on the side of my

15:34

blog. And now

15:36

there's like, there's companies that will come and

15:38

just do that. And guess what? They're

15:40

way better at it than I ever was.

15:43

So, yeah. So the ad management company has

15:45

really helped monetize that at a much higher

15:47

level than we ever could in the past.

15:49

And then I do like, I sell a

15:52

lot of affiliate products. Everything

15:54

from Amazon to products that are real kid

15:56

related that might be, you know, from smaller

15:58

companies that I can get. a higher percentage

16:00

of. And then I sell my

16:03

own products. I have a printables library, I

16:05

do a lot of coloring pages, worksheets and

16:07

stuff for preschool and homeschool. And

16:10

then, you know, just

16:12

little, it's funny, I

16:15

once had someone coming to look

16:17

at potentially buying the blog and

16:19

he looked at everything, he's like,

16:21

I've never seen anyone squeeze more

16:23

money at more places. So if

16:26

I'm making $5 here and $2 here and $10

16:28

here every day, it

16:32

all adds up. And that's what's really got

16:34

you. Is that a result?

16:37

Would you say of one big thing or a

16:39

lot of little things back to the comment of

16:41

your potential buyer who said, I've never

16:43

seen someone monetize like this. What specifically

16:46

would you think adds up

16:48

to that? Can I even mention affiliate products, kid products? What

16:50

are you doing that others aren't? Yeah, I

16:52

mean, I think first of all,

16:54

I've been like, I've been here for

16:56

20 years. And second of all,

16:58

so I've had time to build

17:00

things over time, like

17:02

none of this happens, you know, over a

17:05

quarter over a year or stuff like that.

17:07

But also, like, I like

17:09

I always just like, there's nothing too

17:11

small to try out. And it's kind

17:13

of the, I always look

17:16

at everything as like a laboratory, like,

17:18

whether it be driving traffic, or like

17:20

setting up a funnel or monetization is

17:23

like, what little experiments can we do?

17:25

And then, you know,

17:28

every algorithm in the world is conquered

17:30

by doing more of what's working and

17:32

less of what's not. So it's literally

17:34

the everything in Holly's business today is

17:36

do more of what's working and less

17:38

of what's not. Smart.

17:41

Well, I want to cover, I want to

17:43

cover two things for sure. One,

17:45

I want to talk about how you built this email

17:47

list. And then I want to talk about your software

17:49

too. Okay, so how then are you building you've got

17:51

a list of like 200 250,000? What was the

17:53

main way that you built that list?

17:57

And I do know, well, first of all, how How

18:00

often are you sending to this list? I

18:02

send at least once a day. Okay. So

18:04

I want to know how you're building this list, and then I

18:06

want to know how you're sending one

18:09

to two a day without getting burnout or

18:11

like unsubscribes. Yeah. So basically

18:14

about four years ago, in

18:16

fact, it probably was at funnel

18:19

clicking. It was at funnel clicking live. Funnel,

18:22

whatever. Funnel hacking live. You got it.

18:26

Yeah. My brain isn't working. My friend

18:28

Becky, I was there with my friend Becky. You

18:30

may have remembered her. They pulled

18:32

her on the stage because she had an email list

18:34

of like, I don't know, 100,000. And she's

18:37

a blogger. And I sat there and I

18:39

was like, at that time my

18:41

list was probably 35,000. What city

18:43

was this in? Which funnel hiking live? This was,

18:46

I think, Florida. Orlando?

18:50

Yeah. I think it was on Orlando. And

18:52

they were talking about email lists and they

18:54

were like, look at this girl. She has

18:56

over 100,000. And I'm

18:58

like sitting there doing like, well, and

19:00

I know Becky really well. And

19:02

she had actually worked, we'd worked together and stuff

19:05

like that. So I was like,

19:07

kind of inspiring that. I was like, oh, well, Becky

19:09

can do it. Like, I'm going to do it too.

19:12

And so I

19:14

had like one or two opt-ins on my

19:16

site. I just decided,

19:18

and like this did not happen first when I

19:20

get home. And this is one of the things

19:22

that like I would encourage people. Like life

19:25

happens and you don't get around to things

19:27

sometimes. But as soon as you can

19:29

get around to things. So as

19:31

soon as I could get around to it, I ended

19:34

up, I said, I'm going to

19:36

put a new opt-in on like once a

19:38

week. So I'm just going

19:40

to add an opt-in. And for me, like,

19:42

you know, it's coloring pages. I

19:45

just decided to gate any of

19:47

my printables with an email. Sorry,

19:49

not. So I started

19:51

with, yeah, started with one or

19:53

two. And then as I got

19:55

a system put together, because I knew I was going

19:57

to have a lot. So like that was the other

20:00

thing. thing is at the beginning, I was doing just

20:02

a lot of testing and then trying to figure out

20:04

how am I going to manage a lot of, a

20:06

lot of email signups? Because, you know,

20:08

if you have like a convert kit, which I use

20:10

or, or an A Webber or something

20:13

like that, they're expecting you to have maybe

20:15

20 at the most, they're not

20:17

expecting you to have hundreds. And

20:19

so I kind of developed a system

20:22

and then I hired someone and it

20:24

was like a 15 year old girl

20:26

who just, who, that's all she did

20:28

for me. So she'd come in every

20:30

few days and just hook up anything

20:32

that we had on the site that

20:34

was, that was a printable. So,

20:37

cause I'm not very good at tech. So I was

20:39

just like, I don't want to worry about it. And

20:41

of course, like if you hire a 15 year old,

20:43

it's not that expensive by the way. But,

20:45

um, so over

20:48

the years, I'm, I need

20:50

to go count them, but I have probably over 1500 opt-ins

20:52

now. Holy

20:54

cow. Yeah. But I

20:56

started with one and then like,

20:58

as you got better and easier and as

21:00

you have a system, you can multiply that.

21:02

So today, like I'll probably end up with

21:05

about 600 new subscribers today.

21:07

Um, that's just generally what I get

21:09

on an average day, but I'll also

21:11

have 200 math

21:13

on that, that 600 day, all

21:16

rad, but I'll also have

21:18

two or two, 300 unsubscribes,

21:22

who cares? I don't have to pay for it anymore.

21:24

You're doubling over that. Yeah. Yeah. Who cares? So net

21:26

net three to 400 a day. Yeah.

21:29

So, and I think that's,

21:31

I learned that on Facebook though, when, when

21:33

I, when I built quirky mama and you

21:35

know, people would be like, Oh, you post

21:38

too much. You know, you, you know, the,

21:40

um, you're going to get people that unfollow

21:42

your page and I'm like, good riddance. They're

21:44

not that into me. Are

21:47

they aligned or they not aligned? Yeah. Yeah.

21:49

And like, in fact, in the early days

21:51

of trying to get a, like an algorithm

21:53

to start noticing you, like you really want

21:55

action, whether it's positive or negative action. And

21:58

so that's kind of the way. to

28:01

a page that had at that time probably 1.52 million

28:03

people on it. So

28:06

I'm practicing in front of

28:08

an audience. And

28:13

you just have to be okay with

28:15

what life is like when you're doing

28:17

that. You're not good at it. You're

28:20

not... I don't

28:22

know. So when

28:25

you're at a scale, and so sometimes it's one

28:27

of the things I'd say if you're getting started

28:29

and you're turning on a camera and no one's

28:31

there or one person is there, that's actually a

28:34

blessing in a way. Because

28:36

by the time those people are surrounding you,

28:38

you're going to be a lot better

28:40

at it. You've heard

28:42

how Garrett J. White explains that. Hilarious.

28:47

I have that quote everywhere that you're going to suck

28:49

at something long enough until you're not going to suck

28:51

anymore. Nobody's watching when you first suck. And you know

28:54

what? Eventually you're going to suck less and less until

28:56

you're going to suck so little that

28:58

you're finally good. And that's when you're okay. I

29:01

love that permission. It's fantastic. So

29:04

the latest thing I've done is

29:07

I've gone back to Pinterest in

29:09

that I had

29:11

hired it out for a while and

29:13

it was doing okay. But I thought, you know what? This

29:16

is one of the higher traffic sources to

29:19

my blog right now. I'm going to take

29:21

the next quarter to really dive in and

29:23

do it myself and make

29:25

sure that we're maximizing it. So that's like my

29:27

life. Like I've pinned probably

29:29

20 things today. I've made

29:31

new pins and all these things. Things

29:33

that I haven't done for several years

29:35

because I was working on other projects.

29:38

But I thought this is a way

29:40

to kind of throw myself

29:42

in to make sure that my business is

29:45

optimizing that traffic in a place

29:47

that is actually sending traffic right now.

29:49

Now, yeah, in that same vein, you've

29:52

created something, from what I understand, that

29:54

helps remove you from this in building

29:56

this list. So tell us a little

29:58

bit about PageWheel. like using AI

30:00

to help people build these lists so you can remove

30:02

it and work on other things that are your superpower,

30:04

what's that all about? Yeah, so

30:07

PageWheel kind of came about because Rachel

30:09

and I, Rachel Miller is the other

30:11

one that is a partner on this.

30:14

We have another website called One

30:16

Crazy House and so we were putting together

30:19

based on kind of my opt-in like, hey,

30:21

let's get a million opt-ins. And

30:24

then we thought, okay, we'll do an opt-in but

30:26

then we also want the low ticket products. And

30:30

so we were like putting together like

30:32

camping guides and organizational guides and how

30:34

to clean your kitchen and how to

30:36

clean your bathroom and stuff like that.

30:38

But they were all like low ticket

30:40

printable, workbooks, that kind of thing.

30:43

And so you guys

30:45

know as funnel builders, like a small

30:47

funnel versus a big funnel, it's still

30:50

a lot of tech and

30:52

moving things, moving

30:54

pieces, putting everything together. And

30:57

so I was just like the

30:59

math on selling $7 products without

31:03

an upsell is

31:05

hard in this world. If

31:07

you're spending 10 hours on a funnel

31:09

and several hundred dollars on software

31:12

and stuff like that for that. And

31:15

so we're just to move that out

31:17

to get list building and small engagement

31:19

pieces with that. Like I was

31:21

like, this is really hard. And

31:24

the other side of that is I

31:27

wanted something to be able

31:29

to throw things out daily,

31:31

not have to

31:33

rely on every product to move the needle,

31:36

kind of the spaghetti throwing thing. And so

31:39

we started out thinking we would just automate

31:42

some things. And then Rachel was like,

31:44

no, I think like we could solve

31:46

this by creating like templates that

31:49

would create a digital product. And

31:51

so we started on this about three

31:53

years ago. And the cool thing

31:55

is, is we were about halfway through the coding

31:57

of this. Well, and by the way, she was

31:59

like,