0:01

Welcome to ClickFunnels Radio, the podcast that

0:04

brings you the latest strategies, insights, and

0:06

success stories from online marketers just like

0:08

you who utilize funnels to grow their

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business. Our mission is simple,

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to help you unleash the true potential

0:15

of your online business by harnessing the

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power of funnels. Join

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us every week as we bring you

0:22

exclusive interviews and thought-provoking discussions that will

0:24

revolutionize the way you approach online marketing.

0:27

Here are your hosts, Chris Cameron

0:29

and Ben Harris. Alright everybody, welcome

0:31

back to another amazing episode of

0:33

ClickFunnels Radio. And we have

0:35

somebody who we're really excited to introduce you

0:38

today that if you are anyone who's listening

0:40

that is looking to increase your subscription revenue

0:42

or start a subscription, which by the way

0:44

you need to be doing, this is going

0:47

to be something you're going to listen to

0:49

every single second because other than Russell Brunson,

0:51

there's not too many people living and breathing

0:53

that are teaching the type of content that

0:56

this guy is. And it's going to be

0:58

something that's quite frankly, it's probably going to

1:00

blow you away, myself included. But before we

1:02

get over to him, we've got to introduce Chris

1:04

Cameron in the house. Chris, what's up, man? You

1:06

don't got to introduce me. I'm excited to just

1:08

get into this right now. Like with everything we're

1:10

doing, this is such a cool

1:12

thing. Like people have been following us. We'll get

1:15

into this. Our whole linchpin model like goes so

1:17

much into what this guy is doing. So let's

1:19

introduce him. We can bring

1:21

on at the subscription or at subscription doc,

1:24

Matthew Holloman. Matthew, welcome. How are you

1:26

today? Guys, I'm great

1:28

with that. An intro like that. I mean, how could I not

1:30

be smiling and happy and feeling on top of the world? That's

1:34

awesome. And yeah, thank you

1:36

for coming on. And we don't take your

1:38

time lightly. I promise we won't waste it.

1:40

We'll be entertaining, maybe a joke or two,

1:42

but we we'd love to dive in, man,

1:44

and even kind of hear about, you know,

1:47

your journey. Just pretend we've never met before. Kind of

1:49

catch us up. What's gotten you to this point? Yeah,

1:52

absolutely. I think I've had a very interesting journey,

1:54

which, you know, maybe at another time we need

1:57

to go into, we were joking offline about my

1:59

misadventures in college. We should talk about some of that

2:01

at some point, but I would say what makes me kind

2:03

of a little bit different or a little bit unique from

2:06

a business or career perspective is I've

2:09

been on the SaaS side, right?

2:11

Trying to build up MRR and selling,

2:13

selling SaaS service. I've grown and

2:15

built my own community here in Utah that does

2:18

events. We have in a very, very active Slack

2:20

channel and I'm also a

2:22

content creator. And the, my

2:24

day job is, is consulting with

2:26

brands on building up recurring revenue

2:28

programs, whether that's memberships, subscriptions, all

2:31

types of things there. So I really

2:33

do kind of live and breathe

2:35

around engagement

2:38

and community and how you can drive value in

2:40

such a way where you can capture money from

2:42

them on a, on a regular consistent basis. So,

2:44

so yeah, like quite a few different things going on

2:47

in projects and what I've worked on the last six,

2:49

seven years. Um, but yeah, definitely as

2:51

a, like as an adult, trying to find my,

2:53

my, uh, my niche where I'm happiest and where

2:55

I can drive the most value. What

2:57

took you to subscriptions? Like, did

3:00

you start as like a regular entrepreneur? Yeah.

3:02

Yeah. I was, well, I was, I was,

3:04

I was running marketing for a SaaS startup

3:06

called e-hub here in Utah, a shipping technology

3:09

company. And I actually had, was dating my

3:11

now wife there and, uh, the

3:13

boss's sister, the founder sister, which was

3:16

mixed, mixed drag, right? Tricky. So partially

3:19

to both, you know, you know, pursue

3:21

that relationship, but also partially to like

3:23

want to go full blown entrepreneur on

3:25

and join a subscription app

3:28

or a subscription platform called Q pilot as a

3:30

co-founder to lead marketing. And so when I first

3:32

met the founder, when we were, it was just

3:34

kind of one of those random LinkedIn posts, anybody

3:36

interested in, you know, joining

3:39

a startup, um, immediately

3:41

saw tons of overlap between shipping and

3:43

subscriptions and lots of things in there.

3:45

And then the more and

3:47

more I worked on it again, started as a SaaS

3:50

guy trying to market and pedal a SaaS product, but

3:52

the more and more I worked with our brands

3:54

to try to figure out like, why isn't this

3:56

working? Cause I'll just say a very, very quick

3:59

example, the common practice. and a lot of

4:01

like D to C subscription spaces is, you

4:03

know, month three, month four, we're going to throw

4:06

a discount at you to try to increase retention.

4:09

And a lot, and that's really, really common,

4:11

but, but Or just like a

4:13

month to month discount. Yeah. Like month to month, we'll give you 10%

4:16

off. So just as a, as

4:18

a, as a perk, because people are worried when they

4:20

see the renewal or if you're shipping

4:22

something, a physical good subscription, you get that in

4:24

the mail and you're like, Oh, I need to

4:26

cancel this. So they're like, Hey, we're going

4:28

to be 10% off or 20% off this month. And

4:31

the problem though, is that if you're giving somebody a

4:33

discount that doesn't value the service and isn't using the

4:35

service or the product, what, what does a discount going

4:37

to get you? So sometimes you

4:39

have to take a step back and like look at

4:41

the type of people that are coming in the funnel

4:44

and who's buying and why, and

4:46

then giving them more of what they need. And

4:48

sometimes that's a discount, but sometimes that might be

4:50

a service or a different like some other value

4:52

prop. And so when I

4:54

started to realize that and see the space is

4:57

like very much just like discount driven and trying

4:59

to like, why, why won't this work? Well,

5:01

if you put garbage in, you get garbage out, right? We've

5:03

all heard that start before. So once I started like kind

5:05

of get that and see that within the subscription space, there's

5:07

not a ton of thought leadership. There's

5:10

not a ton of education. And that's

5:12

how I've grown in advance. My career is

5:14

by following other people and practicing what experts

5:16

are doing in the space. That's one

5:18

of the reasons why I became the subscription doc and

5:20

launched subscription prescription as a brand with my partner to

5:22

try to do more to educate and

5:25

empower people in that. There's so

5:27

many nuggets in that. Like I think you

5:29

really understand like if you can sit back

5:31

and look at the market, realize what's happening.

5:33

And if there are gurus in the space,

5:35

this can shortcut you a ton. But what I think

5:37

too, in this entrepreneur space, what's so interesting is so

5:41

many entrepreneurs chase promotion,

5:44

right? If they have a SaaS, that's

5:46

one thing, right? But a lot of them are coaches

5:48

or something like that, but they have membership sites. And

5:52

rather than chasing that promotion and next

5:54

promotion, next promotion, you

5:56

have to have like, we do have this whole Lynch, Lynch

5:58

bin model right now that really Russell's running. And

6:01

he always jokes like David Fry taught in this, if you

6:03

don't have continuity, you don't have a business. And

6:06

so this has become such an important thing

6:08

for all entrepreneurs to like switch their mindset.

6:10

You have to have something that's gonna get

6:12

you that monthly recurring revenue. If somebody doesn't

6:14

have an e-com thing

6:17

that is something that they can use over and

6:19

over again, or let's say

6:21

a software, how else can

6:23

they implement subscription? Yeah,

6:26

there's actually quite a few different ways. If you think about,

6:28

I think, unpacking

6:31

it, sometimes memberships or subscriptions and

6:33

memberships get used interchangeably. Let's talk

6:35

about the different versions. Could be

6:37

access, right? So like say

6:39

you have content or you have some kind of

6:41

exclusivity element and the only way to get it

6:43

is by subscribing to it. So like if you

6:45

had a really high quality YouTube channel, that's

6:48

public. So you might, if you're launching that

6:50

on Circle or hosting it on another platform

6:52

where you're gating access, so that's

6:54

one way, right? The other way

6:57

is like talking about having access to something

6:59

you might need. So for example, like video

7:01

editing is another great example. It's like, hey,

7:03

you pay $1,000 a month and

7:06

you can get up to X hours of video

7:08

edited every month. It's

7:10

$1,000 flat and whether you use up the hours

7:12

or not, that's up to you, right? So like

7:14

that's like a recurring service model. The

7:17

physical goods ones are pretty easy to understand,

7:20

right? Like you're getting a pound of pet

7:22

food every month or getting protein powders, a

7:24

supplement. It's private and safe or whatever. And

7:27

then the other thing is thinking about like app usage or

7:30

like a tool, right? Like so the

7:32

ones, I think that a really great example

7:34

we're thinking through like great subscription experiences is

7:36

like go and like, if you see

7:39

an ad for some kind of like sleep app in

7:41

the future or like a fitness app, go

7:43

download it and go through their onboarding process. Pay

7:45

the 10 bucks or whatever to go see what

7:47

it's like because they ask so many questions. They

7:50

try to identify exactly who you are, what

7:53

your pain points are, what your goals are.

7:55

They're trying to do everything they can understand about

7:57

you so that they can then surface and experience.

8:00

that speaks to you. So another great example

8:02

of this is just very simple. Like if you think

8:04

about bag of protein powder. Now

8:07

everybody could use that when we're thinking

8:09

as entrepreneurs, but no matter how

8:11

many different people can use it, you have to pick

8:13

your angle or your wedge for who you're going to

8:15

be selling to. So am I selling this

8:17

protein powder to people that are looking for a meal supplement

8:19

because they're trying to lose weight? Is it

8:21

for people that are training in weights,

8:23

trying to gain weight, people that are endurance

8:25

athletes, they're training for a race or triathlon

8:28

or somebody's just trying to like get ready

8:30

for hot girl summer. Like whatever those things

8:32

are, those are very different

8:34

types of users with very different types

8:36

of goals and dreams and pain points.

8:38

Even though the product is the same.

8:40

Even though the product is the same

8:43

and many of them might use it differently as well.

8:45

Like the weight game guy, he's taking two scoops every

8:47

time. The meal supplement person's only taking

8:49

it whenever they're trying to make a shake or a

8:51

protein shake. That could be once or twice a day.

8:53

It could be once a week. So again,

8:55

like a lot of the goals with subscriptions

8:57

is trying to understand who your users are and what

8:59

they're trying to make happen. What's the dream? What's the

9:02

what were they trying to accomplish? And

9:04

if can you put in a service or some type

9:06

of product or whatever that's going to enable that for

9:08

them, right? Yeah.

9:10

The marketing is totally different than across that. You

9:12

could market to a bunch of different sub niches

9:14

and funnel them all into that same product. Yeah,

9:17

absolutely. Yeah. Benjamin, I feel like you want to

9:20

say something, but I can riff on what Chris

9:22

just said. No, a couple

9:24

of things is I guess a quick answer

9:26

and then a more question we can unpack.

9:28

Do you see brands in

9:30

the CPG market, we can use

9:32

the protein example again, that are

9:36

using those different angles for the

9:38

same product? Yeah, that's what landing pages

9:40

are all about. So like when

9:42

you're evaluating like a brand, you look at

9:44

their website and websites are often like trying

9:46

to be all things for all people. Yeah.

9:48

But then when you look at like, say

9:51

like daily harvest is probably a good example,

9:53

right? So like daily harvest is spinning up

9:55

landing pages for every different type of

9:57

user that might be looking for meals, whether you're single,

9:59

whether you're you're married, whether you're busy, whether you're,

10:01

you know, all those different types of things. They're

10:04

spinning up pain landing pages based off of pain

10:06

points or use cases that they've found starting to

10:08

work or they're trying to test new ones. Like

10:11

the protein powder one's a good example. You know,

10:13

if you wanted to say like started a target

10:15

like, you know, nursing mothers, right? So

10:17

you have a healthy organic protein powder that, that

10:19

will be positive, have positive effects for the baby.

10:22

That's a totally different landing page, but

10:24

maybe a similar funnel that you're trying to sell to somebody

10:26

to try to get them ultimately to buy the product. Gotcha.

10:29

Okay. Even if looking at build

10:31

landing pages, go to clickphones.com starts your 14 day free trial.

10:35

So Matthew, you mentioned

10:37

earlier, um, of, of

10:39

creating a great subscription experience and this

10:42

may be a loaded question, but I'm

10:44

curious with your expertise, what makes a

10:46

great subscription experience? Yeah,

10:49

there's, there's usually a couple of different things that go

10:51

into that. I think that maybe

10:53

taking quick, a quick step back is

10:55

like any good subscription program needs to

10:58

be gathering information, right? Like using surveys,

11:00

onboarding questions, periodic check-ins, things like that.

11:03

Um, also when you're doing cancellations, collecting reasons as well,

11:05

because if you don't get those insights, you don't know

11:07

what to change or what to build or to be

11:10

better. But whether we're talking product

11:12

or service, it needs to fit the need or

11:14

even surpass the need. So usually

11:16

high quality products and services are going to win out, but,

11:18

but even then it has to have some angle of

11:21

you have to be addressing like, is this a convenience

11:24

product? Is this being bought because of the

11:26

prices better? Is it being bought because

11:28

something about it is unique or special in some way?

11:30

And so that's like typical Mark,

11:32

just like general marketing stuff that goes into

11:34

that. But otherwise great subscription experiences are, I

11:36

think the best ones are control. Um,

11:39

people are getting what they need on the, on

11:41

the stat on the timeline or frequency or cadence

11:43

that they need it. Um,

11:45

so that you don't lose people that are getting frustrated.

11:48

Like, like the video editing thing, if,

11:50

if that thousand dollar package was for a hundred hours

11:52

a month, but I only ever needed five, that

11:55

doesn't work for me. Could I pay

11:57

$200 to get five video hours, right? That kind of

11:59

thing. So trying to build some

12:01

kind of either flexibility there, but

12:03

then I think it really does come down to

12:05

like a great subscription experience is aligning expectation

12:10

with what you're being delivered. And yes,

12:12

you can always over-deliver, that's fine. When

12:15

I was younger, I used to think over-delivering was

12:17

the whole big thing, but when you realize actually

12:19

in real business, sometimes it's actually just about meeting

12:22

expectations. Just doing that really well. It's

12:24

like if somebody comes in thinking that your protein pattern is

12:27

gonna help them with weight loss, but

12:29

it really doesn't help or only helps in certain

12:31

ways, or there's all these other qualifications, or it

12:33

needs to be like, say you have to take

12:35

it for six months to see any effect, but

12:37

you didn't tell them it was six months up

12:40

front, those are bad experiences. So you'd

12:42

wanna really align customer expectation

12:45

with what you're actually delivering and

12:47

making happen. I have kind of

12:49

an interesting question to build off that. You talk about over-deliver,

12:52

and this is maybe a little bit different. If you're

12:54

talking e-com, Stu McLaren does a whole training

12:57

on this, which I think is really funny. He talks

12:59

about tie of the month club, and he's like, what happens when you

13:01

get like month six and you realize you're not wearing these ties?

13:03

Now I got all these ties stacking up. I was over at

13:05

my niece's house, and she's in

13:07

this bow club, and she's got tons of

13:09

these bows. She's not wearing all those bows. And

13:11

then that can be fatigued now for the consumer. Like,

13:13

okay, that's enough bows. I got enough for a lifetime.

13:16

How does somebody who's e-con that specializes in a

13:19

product like that, how can they meet those expectations

13:21

without losing somebody or somebody getting overwhelmed because now

13:23

they got a pile of ties? Yeah,

13:25

so that's a great question. The idea is,

13:28

one, is that an outlier? Is that

13:30

somebody who just- Yeah, maybe it is. They don't wear

13:32

that many ties or not. But because

13:34

basically we create an assumption, like

13:36

a hypothesis around this, is like,

13:38

hey, people need more tie variability

13:41

in their life. I'll give

13:43

you a great example, because I had this as

13:45

a guest on my podcast. Wink was a wine club

13:47

for a long time. Their assumption,

13:49

their value prop was, if you come in,

13:51

we're gonna give you the selection for all

13:53

these different wines so you can try different

13:55

wines from around the world kind of thing.

13:58

But what they found was- So they'd have 20,

14:00

25 wines you can choose from. But as soon

14:02

as you had one little preference, like I liked

14:05

red more than white, or I like, you know,

14:07

like just that little bit

14:09

of a preference, your selection of 25 went down

14:11

to like six. And

14:13

so then if you're getting like four a month,

14:15

like your second shipment, like what else are they

14:17

gonna send you? Right? So you're running out. And

14:19

so what they found was they had to then

14:21

add more skews to make,

14:23

because they found that the subscribers

14:25

really were interested in discovering new

14:28

types of wine. And

14:30

so you have to make that assumption and

14:32

that value of why somebody's buying match. And

14:34

so with the tie example, if somebody

14:36

is like really interested in getting a bunch of ties,

14:38

there's either a misalignment like they forget them,

14:41

or maybe they didn't really need them as much

14:43

as they did. And so that's why I would

14:45

think it might be an outlier. Or what does

14:47

the market look like? Are you getting a lot

14:49

of people that are really interested in that they

14:51

need more ties or the bow thing? Because there

14:53

is an aspirational element to a lot of online

14:55

purchases. Like weight loss is a great one. Like, yeah, I

14:57

am trying to lose weight. And then the protein

15:00

powder sits in the kitchen and it never gets used, right? So

15:02

those types of people are good, ideal customers. And so

15:05

sometimes the mistake with subscriptions is we try

15:07

to build the program to go after the

15:09

guy with the six ties sitting in his

15:11

closet. Ah. And that is

15:13

generally the mistake. And that's why I say a lot of

15:15

times this discount culture

15:17

happens is brands often will

15:20

chase the wrong customer. I'm

15:23

okay losing, if I have a

15:25

thousand customers that love getting all

15:27

the tie varieties, and

15:29

I have a hundred of them canceling every month

15:31

because they're tired of ties. Okay.

15:34

Do I need to do more ties and more variety?

15:36

Is that the reason they're getting fatigued or are they

15:39

just really not wearing ties that much? And if they're

15:41

not wearing ties that much, I want

15:43

to get information from all the other people that are

15:45

still on there saying like, hey, we could use more,

15:47

we could use different lengths. Could

15:50

you offer suits? Could you offer tie clips?

15:52

Like, are you pulling them? Are you pulling

15:54

them as you get them? Absolutely. That's

15:57

the whole thing I was saying about information gathering

15:59

is like, You have to be doing

16:01

that. You have to ask them questions around. When

16:03

you onboard somebody, it's not just like, how are

16:05

you gonna use this product? But like, what are

16:08

your goals? Like, what made you buy this? Tell

16:11

me more about you. Like, if you're selling

16:13

invest, say you're selling a course on investment

16:16

stuff, are you 20 years

16:18

old in college trying to figure out how to

16:20

become a millionaire? Are you 35, tired

16:22

of being in your nine to five? Like, because

16:25

when you're the 20 year old, just

16:27

trying to figure that out, like, oh, I could just

16:29

come up with more and more, get rich quick scheme

16:31

content that they're gonna gobble up. The

16:33

35 year old guy, it's like, hey, actually, let's

16:35

start with talking with a financial planner first to

16:38

see if you're ready to start investing. And like,

16:40

we're gonna start offering that as a service. Right?

16:43

So those are the ideas you get at the

16:45

onboarding port, onboarding piece. But then yes, you need

16:47

to be regular polling, doing surveys, trying to get

16:49

feedback from people. And then you're

16:51

also gonna be able, within any like purchase experience,

16:54

you're gonna be able to see a subscription. Like,

16:56

you can look at people who's been on the

16:58

longest. Those are the people I'm gonna

17:00

poll. I wanna know why they like it, what

17:02

they get, what more would they like. They've been

17:04

buying for me for 12 months. Every single month.

17:06

They're gonna tell me that I'm crazy

17:08

or not kind of thing. Versus

17:10

maybe somebody early on that's canceling, I'd like to

17:13

find out what quite wasn't right. If they just

17:15

didn't like it, it didn't work, that's fine. If

17:17

something was wrong, or maybe

17:20

they had the wrong assumption, then I need

17:22

to maybe fix some of my upfront marketing.

17:24

But yes, that's where the feedback loop is

17:26

the most critical and often overlooked piece of

17:29

the great subscription piece. Because one, it helps you fix problems.

17:32

Two, it helps you launch new products. And the

17:34

final thing is it helps you boost and improve

17:36

attention overall, because you're getting feedback from what's working,

17:38

what's not. Are you, do you

17:40

get a lot of participation in

17:42

those type of feedbacks? Is there a certain way that you do

17:44

this? I mean, it's all marketing, right? If you have somebody who's

17:46

engaged, yes, those people that are paying every single month, they'll probably

17:49

be like, yeah, I have some input for you. But

17:51

what's that like return like? Do people-

17:54

Yeah, it's fairly low. Like, it's hard

17:56

to survey customers, because like, but it's,

17:58

you have to be- be a little

18:00

more creative or take your shot. Like one

18:03

question maybe you send out or a two question

18:05

survey or something like that. Yes. If you're targeting.

18:07

If they go out, do you then maybe provide

18:09

a discount or something like that? You can do

18:11

that. Yes, as well. Like, hey, we're trying to,

18:14

we're, you know, you can also gamify it

18:16

a little bit. Like, hey, we're working on some new

18:18

products. Can you take two minutes

18:20

to give us feedback on things that we could do

18:22

more for you? Right? And so that's potentially going to

18:24

get more opt-in by people are interested in like, oh

18:26

yeah. Like, and if you can be really specific, like,

18:29

hey, we're going to start launch. We're looking at considering

18:31

financial planning services. Could you spend a few minutes to

18:33

answer that question? So there's a lot of different ways

18:35

you can test that to try to get it to

18:37

make it work. But yeah, the gains aren't necessarily huge.

18:40

You're not going to get 60, 70%

18:42

responses, response rates, but even getting like 10

18:44

or 20% can be pretty

18:47

significant. And then

18:49

the other thing is just like spending some time calling

18:52

or talking or holding events. Like,

18:55

you know, if you can meet with people in

18:57

person or get feedback from them one-on-one, that's pretty,

18:59

that's massive. Yeah. That's a great call out. So

19:03

Matthew, the, I think CEO or founder, I forget

19:05

what his job title was, but I think his

19:07

name is Patrick Campbell too, was with ProfitWell. I'll

19:10

listen to some, okay. So it's some content that

19:12

he had said, and I'm going to just

19:15

paraphrase this, but he said that when people

19:17

were canceling after surveying thousands of cancellation funnels,

19:19

one of the key questions they would ask

19:21

somebody when they wanted to leave their platform

19:23

or subscription was what they liked the most

19:25

about it. So it sort of put the

19:28

canceling consumer in a different frame of mind

19:30

of like, you know what, I actually really

19:32

liked the content and it gave them more

19:34

ammo to downsell them on a

19:36

different plan or something like that. Do you

19:38

have like a golden nugget question or something

19:40

you do to increase retention that's like that?

19:45

I would say that my golden nugget maybe isn't

19:47

quite as golden as Patrick. That

19:50

one's like Ninja. That's just pretty awesome. I

19:52

would say, I would say, and I'm being

19:54

a little bit, you know, maybe

19:57

downplaying my own ability there, but I would say the thing

20:00

that I get really, really common is either

20:02

people have too much product on physical subscriptions

20:04

or they're not using it, right?

20:07

Those are the two really common ones like, hey, I don't

20:09

use this anymore. I don't need this anymore. And

20:11

for me, it's always about trying to figure out a

20:13

better way to ask that question, whether I'm doing that

20:15

in the flow to ask more in depth

20:18

about that, or I'm trying to put in taking

20:20

that question out and using some of my own,

20:23

what I've been getting feedback from. So a good example

20:25

might be like, hey, if you're not using this

20:27

product anymore, how often were

20:29

you using it before you weren't using it

20:31

anymore? Like, what changed for you that didn't

20:33

make sense anymore? I want to dive more

20:35

into that because if I'm finding people that

20:38

aren't using the product because they got

20:40

immediate impact from it and no longer need

20:42

it, okay, maybe I could just try to

20:44

figure out how to sell more to them.

20:46

But if they didn't use it and

20:49

that's why they never used it, that's an

20:51

onboarding issue for me. And so that's what

20:53

I try to get deeper in there when

20:56

we're looking at cancellation flows is like really

20:58

getting into the nitty gritty of like, why

21:01

did this not happen for you? Because like a common

21:03

one's price, people are complaining about

21:05

price being too high. And oftentimes that's a

21:07

question of like evaluating how you're demonstrating value,

21:10

right? Maybe you're not pointing out

21:12

that the cost of these services are 2X

21:15

somewhere else, right? And you're not reminding somebody of

21:17

that over and over again. That's

21:20

like, I like trying to go deeper and as

21:22

deeper as you can on the cancellation surveys. Yeah,

21:25

I love that too. I mean asking

21:28

them, even if they're exiting,

21:30

right? Like they'll still, that's a lot of times when

21:32

they're going to give you that information. I do have

21:35

a kind of a fun question. I want

21:37

to know what's the weirdest like

21:39

subscription because here the thing, okay,

21:41

pest control, but is it professional

21:43

services like our dentists or chiropractors

21:45

or like, you know, even

21:48

HVAC guys, like what's the most

21:50

creative or weirdest subscription model that

21:52

you've seen that works? Well,

21:55

there's a company in Utah called Pesti that does pest

21:58

control subscriptions. I'll give that

22:00

one. The one that I really didn't like

22:02

is when, I think it was BMW that

22:05

you had to subscribe to get access to

22:07

the seat warmers. That's what it was. Yes.

22:10

I really didn't like that. I thought that

22:12

was a horrible mismanagement of like, BMW

22:15

could do so many other things to create

22:17

a membership or subscription model, like do a

22:19

virtual drive with a race car driver or

22:22

something like that. You know what I mean?

22:24

Yeah. I would say one of the funniest ones

22:27

was a guinea pig subscription box. So like people

22:29

that have guinea pigs for pets and every month they're

22:31

getting like toys and treats and stuff for their guinea

22:33

pigs. I was going to say, are they getting a

22:35

new guinea pig every month? Because that can be a

22:37

real thing. But that was a great example of like

22:39

a niche that actually was doing pretty well. Yeah. If

22:42

you have a guinea pig, like there aren't that many guinea pigs, it's

22:44

like services out there. I'm trying to think

22:46

of like some other ones. I think

22:49

it's something like the most creative ones, there's

22:53

quite a bit. I mean, obviously everybody knows

22:55

Costco and Amazon. Sure.

22:59

What about like people that come to the house? I mean, Pesti

23:01

is a good example of this. But

23:03

like some people think, okay, well, I only need

23:06

my roof done. Like

23:09

we'll talk to broofers all the time or we're telling

23:11

them or just anybody who has this professional service business.

23:13

They'll be like, well, I don't know how to do

23:15

a subscription. And there's got to be ways

23:17

to do all of that. There's a company

23:19

in Park City and I'm spacing on their name,

23:22

but they were selling a subscription to have access

23:24

to professional services that you could get faster and

23:26

at a discount. So like if you

23:28

needed like a handyman or a plumber or something like

23:30

that, you would just use their platform. You

23:33

would get faster response times than an average customer and

23:35

then you'd get say like 20% off

23:37

any of the people in their network. So that was

23:39

a good one, a good way. I mean, I get

23:41

asked, I'll reframe your question just a little bit. I

23:43

get asked a lot about like, how, if

23:46

I'm not in a, what would normally be

23:48

construed as a typical subscription or membership model,

23:50

how do I create a subscription or membership?

23:52

And so the example I like to use for that

23:54

is like, is

23:57

if you're normally getting people that are buying

23:59

something. or people

24:01

that are close to buying from you, but don't

24:03

quite pull the trigger. Is

24:06

there a fractional part of

24:08

your service or your product that you

24:10

could sell and have access to? So

24:14

we can use video editing as a good

24:16

example. Like let's say you normally sell this

24:18

really big video editing process. It's

24:21

really expensive. Say it's 10 grand a month, is the

24:23

typical customers you go after. But you get a lot

24:25

of people saying like, hey, I really just need five

24:27

hours a week editing my podcast and to get it

24:30

ready to post, like could you do that? Like, okay,

24:32

once you start modeling out that process, we could

24:35

do that profitably if we offered like 150 bucks

24:37

or something. And here's the limits and restrictions.

24:40

Legal services, I mean, legal, they

24:43

love charging for hours, but

24:45

if you just wanna have access. So it's like

24:47

trying to understand like the problems with that, like

24:49

let's say if normally in the legal world, you

24:51

can't just flip open a phone book to call

24:53

a lawyer to ask them a quick question. Or

24:56

you're in a space where a lot of

24:59

people need just one quick legal question answered

25:01

like every couple of days or once or

25:03

twice a month kind of thing. Okay,

25:05

maybe as a lawyer, I could say, hey, we have

25:07

this little membership, it's 30 bucks a month and you

25:10

can ask three questions. We have a chat bot that

25:12

you can use it through. We respond in 10 minutes.

25:15

So it's like trying to think through like, maybe

25:17

there's some like misalignment with what people are getting,

25:19

or if it's access information,

25:22

you do have to just try to kind of take a

25:24

step back of like trying to understand where you can offer

25:26

value. And maybe there's like something that's

25:29

a little bit different that you could offer as

25:31

value to people at a reduced rate or on

25:33

a recurring rate. But I generally like to think

25:35

of things as like access, convenience,

25:38

something like that. You

25:40

know, like the idea of one I saw

25:42

recently more is Target just launched this. And

25:44

I'm trying to, I'm forgetting the name of the app,

25:46

but it's like a delivery app, right?

25:49

So like Walmart Plus, Walmart does their own

25:51

service, right? So, but Target and some of

25:53

these other retailers are starting to

25:55

use either Instacart or something like that where,

25:57

hey, you can subscribe for 30 bucks a

25:59

month. month and we waive delivery fees for

26:01

you. Right. And so every

26:04

time you're in checkout, you see the delivery

26:06

fee cost. You can choose in your

26:08

mind to think, am I doing this enough

26:10

where I want to subscribe to this to get that

26:12

for free or not? Like that happens all the time.

26:14

So that's kind of like the mentality is like, okay,

26:17

you can just pay for this. Or if

26:19

you do this enough where you think the math works, we

26:22

can just charge you a subscription and then you can get

26:24

access to it. Yeah.

26:27

That's the genius stuff, man. Like, I know, right? I

26:29

feel like, I feel like the whole world is kind

26:32

of going this way a little bit, but it's just

26:34

rethinking how this is done. Right. People,

26:36

people pay insurance, right? Because then they're going

26:38

to have a big thing. I think there's

26:40

a lot of opportunity for people who haven't

26:43

considered, you know, business owners, they haven't considered

26:45

a subscription model. I think exactly

26:47

what you're saying is going to be super helpful to those who

26:49

are listening. Is there an

26:51

industry out there that you would not

26:53

suggest pivoting to any kind of subscription

26:55

offer? No,

26:58

I mean, they're getting disrupted right now by that. What's

27:01

the name of that company that you can, there's a Utah startup that's actually

27:04

disrupting the funeral home, trying to do cremations

27:06

on demand, but yeah, that's

27:08

probably not a good one. How

27:11

about restaurants? Is that even, I guess Panera

27:14

has like their coffee deal or whatever, but. Well,

27:16

restaurants, like if you're having like access to

27:18

stuff, like I, like there's a little, little bit of a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a,

27:21

a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, like

27:25

there's a little, little local coffee shop in San,

27:27

in Salt Lake that I stopped in the other

27:29

day and they have a, they're offering like a

27:32

subscription to coffee and you've got X number, like you

27:34

could get a free cup of coffee every day if

27:36

you paid them like a hundred bucks a month or

27:38

whatever. And so. You need to offer some

27:40

type of retainer. I, they would make millions

27:42

and millions and millions on that. For those who know,

27:44

no swig, it's the alternative to coffee shops here in

27:46

Utah. But it does, it does

27:48

raise a good question. Like I, the example I

27:50

like to use a lot is like movie theaters.

27:53

So movie theaters have loyalty and they have membership,

27:55

right? So loyalty is just iron points because whatever.

27:58

And I would question whether that's. Really

28:00

makes sense because loyalty is not inspiring me like when

28:02

you know you go to buy popcorn and they ask

28:04

you for your phone Number and they're like, hey, would

28:06

you like five dollars off? You've earned five dollars off.

28:08

I'm like, yeah I don't

28:10

I'm not saving those up for anything But

28:12

I'm also not going to see another movie

28:15

because I have five dollars in popcorn credit,

28:17

right? So yeah, so that's so questions. Why

28:19

why does the why does that loyalty point

28:21

but that program work now? Memberships one this

28:24

is this is an interesting example. It's like,

28:26

okay, I'm gonna pay I get a

28:28

free move I pay you $10 a month. I

28:31

get a free movie ticket every month That's

28:33

worth ten dollars and I get an extra

28:35

20% off concessions And so, you

28:37

know as maybe there's another perk or two like I

28:39

get to X loyalty points when I buy popcorn or

28:41

something Okay. Well from the value

28:44

standpoint is the movie theater?

28:47

Making more money off

28:49

of that. Well, they're basically

28:52

giving you a free ticket for ten bucks. So Maybe

28:55

maybe because they're doing a little predictable. But if

28:57

the system lets you keep your tickets till infinity

29:00

Then you know, maybe they're getting a

29:02

little bit more predictable revenue But not much and

29:05

they're also then giving away more concessions on on

29:07

the concession side. So why do they do it? Well,

29:10

they do it because there's a

29:12

certain subsection of moviegoers That

29:14

are much more engaged with the movie brand because

29:17

of this right they buy all their tickets to

29:19

the app. They Share

29:22

movie tickets or movie preferences through the app.

29:24

They're tracking like what they have available So

29:26

now that app has this stickiness That

29:29

gives additional like secondary and tertiary values to

29:31

the movie theater company because they get more

29:33

information from users They know who you are

29:35

instead of you just being an anonymous or

29:37

just knowing you because of the credit card

29:39

you used to buy things so there's sometimes

29:41

a lot of ancillary benefits to

29:44

offering that and and then going one step

29:46

further is if you have a thousand

29:48

customers and Say that you

29:50

do have a subscription model in place Do

29:53

you have an extra level of service you could offer

29:55

for a hundred of them? Like out of

29:57

that thousand there's gonna be at least 10 to 20% Maybe

30:00

it's that mega tub or the refill things they're

30:02

doing because now they're going to come to Larry

30:05

H. Miller over something else because they can get

30:07

a $3 popcorn in their plastic bucket. So

30:09

it's like now, hey, if I offer cash back

30:11

whenever you buy with us, like now you're going

30:13

to be more incentivized to buy more or out of

30:16

those people like anybody doing a service. We all

30:18

know this. You have a certain cost. You have

30:20

all these customers and some people come occasionally. Some people

30:22

come all the time. Well, what

30:24

can you do for the people that come all the time that

30:27

you can do more for? Is it a

30:29

more product? Is it a discount to get

30:31

them to buy more? Like thinking through like

30:33

how you can service or engage with your

30:35

best customers. That should be the

30:37

ideal of any subscription or membership offering. I

30:40

have just a funny story about this. It made me think about

30:42

it. So, you know, they'll give you those

30:44

tub popcorn. They give you these refills. And I

30:46

had a mug that was just haggard. And I'm going

30:48

up to this other fat cats movie theater. Here's

30:51

what was genius. These guys are at war with the membership thing.

30:53

And I said, oh, crud, I brought the wrong mug. And he

30:55

goes, no problem. We'll do it for you. He says, just hand

30:57

me that one. He took it through

30:59

in the garbage and handed me a new one.

31:01

And now I'm on them. Like, it's just crazy.

31:04

Like, that's great. All the things you can do, right?

31:06

It's actually genius because you get that brand loyalty and

31:08

reason to come back. And I thought it was great

31:11

customer service. And then when I went home, I was

31:13

like, wait a minute. Now I can't go to Larry

31:15

H. Miller. That guy got me. Exactly,

31:17

right? There's so much power in

31:19

this stuff and psychology

31:22

for the consumer that

31:24

people don't realize that you can hack into. It's

31:27

fun. Matthew,

31:29

are you familiar with Russell Brunson's value

31:31

ladder concept? No.

31:34

Well, I can explain it real quick.

31:36

It's essentially just identifying people

31:38

who are of interest, turning them

31:40

into buyers, and then basically hyperactive

31:42

buyers. You get them

31:44

in with the low ticket and then they ascend

31:46

up your value ladder to maybe a subscription, then

31:49

a high ticket coaching model. And you can see,

31:51

we can break it down at a later date,

31:53

but ClickFunnels, we have a full value ladder of

31:55

all of our products and offerings. And in

31:58

our perfect world, a subscription is never off. offered

32:00

to a cold customer, right? Even if it's

32:02

five bucks a month, just the per month

32:05

makes it way harder to sell.

32:08

How do you advise your clients to grow

32:10

their subscription? Do you suggest that

32:13

they congregate a pool of buyers

32:15

of action takers rather, or do

32:17

they want a leader? Yeah. Point of

32:19

purchase, checkout type deal. What's your ideal

32:22

scenario? Yeah. So there's two like within

32:24

the D to C like CPG, the physical good space.

32:26

There's two kinds of schools of thought that are worrying.

32:28

One is you sell the one time as much as

32:30

you can and you use email marketing to hit them

32:33

as hard as possible to get them to opt in

32:35

the subscription because that's going to be

32:37

better off for you. And then there's another school of

32:39

thought, which is why don't you lead with the subscription

32:41

because the recurring revenue. So like we

32:43

can get talk a little bit about the math, but it's like, Hey,

32:45

if I'm getting like 10% of website visitors

32:48

to opt into a one-time purchase, but I get

32:50

5% of website

32:52

visitors to opt into a subscription, I can

32:55

very easily see like my conversion rates from

32:57

the one time to subscription versus just subscription

32:59

initially and make a decision about whether I

33:01

should just sell with that. Um,

33:04

I think that it comes down to like most

33:06

brands only have like one product. So they're not

33:09

following like a step thing. Like, so like for

33:11

me with subscription prescription, it's yeah, it's like, I'm

33:13

trying to get you to pay for a download

33:15

five bucks. That's like what I'm working on. And

33:18

then I'm trying to upsell you into like, you

33:20

know, Subscribing to more

33:22

content or buying a course

33:24

and then like masterclass. Like that's that same idea

33:26

of like, I don't want to try to sell

33:28

a masterclass to somebody who doesn't think I know

33:31

what I'm talking about or doesn't see that much

33:33

value or whatever, right? That makes sense. So I

33:35

think like understanding that user journey, how people are

33:37

discovering you, um, a subscription box, company, no battle

33:39

box. They said they have like 60, 40, 40%

33:43

of their customers by kind of like almost within

33:45

a day or two of being introduced to the

33:48

brand, but 60% of them, it's almost like

33:50

a year of they

33:52

discover it's help a funnel. They do research.

33:54

They watch ads, stuff like that. And so

33:56

there's like this really big gap. So they

33:58

try to service both. They create content. for

34:00

the year-long considers, and they do on-site tests

34:02

and offers for the people that are kind

34:04

of getting there kind of quick, right? So

34:07

I would say like it just depends on trying

34:09

to figure out like, do you

34:11

think you can, I think you should try if you

34:13

have, if you don't have a ton of other products

34:15

to try to introduce people to, you

34:17

should try leading with the subscription first, because

34:20

if you get, if you're getting it

34:22

nailed, like you understand the

34:24

pain point or the value, like again, let's

34:26

use that protein powder. If I know that

34:28

I've got a system for anybody who's trying

34:30

to use protein powder for weight loss, I'm

34:32

going to try to get you to subscribe

34:34

right now because I'm trying to sell the

34:36

aspirational like six month, 12

34:38

month journey. And that's where I think

34:40

subscriptions sometimes, yes, you're buying, you're not

34:43

buying because of the product, you're buying

34:45

because of the result. And

34:47

if I think I'm selling the right result, I'm

34:49

going to try to get you to commit right

34:51

away. And so sometimes you'll see people that are

34:53

cold customers that are subscribing to like a prepaid

34:56

subscription for a year, not just like I'm going

34:58

to start getting them. Yeah,

35:02

I'm going to prepay for 12 months. Now, some people do

35:04

that, but most of the time it's like, Hey, you're

35:06

on there for a couple of months and then you hit

35:08

them with an offer. By the way, if you prepay for

35:10

the next six months, the next 12 months, we're going

35:12

to give you like 10 or 20% off.

35:14

You're already using it. You already love it. Just makes

35:17

sense. Right? So, so there's two different ways to like

35:19

approach that, but you can, you can,

35:21

you can, without getting, I always like to

35:23

caution people I consult with, like don't get

35:25

too complicated because it's hard to manage all

35:27

the complications. But if you do

35:29

start to identify, there's two types of users, there's,

35:31

there's like 10% of the people that

35:33

come to the page, just they gobble it up. They're willing to pay

35:36

for it. What's the

35:38

ideal experience for the customers? What's the ideal experience

35:40

for my business? And where can I find like

35:42

the middle ground there? This

35:44

is, this is genius. I hadn't even considered,

35:47

I guess, too much that psychology of, you

35:49

know, if somebody's gonna, you know, be

35:52

a golfer, they might want to subscribe right

35:54

when they're starting to, you know, golf balls

35:56

every month because they're going to be the

35:58

biggest golfer ever. where three, four months into

36:01

it, they're like, I'm not going as much as I want

36:03

or anything. There might be a space for that. I

36:05

hadn't even considered that. Well,

36:07

Matthew, we could talk about this forever.

36:10

But I'm curious, if people wanted to go find out more

36:13

about you, they wanted to check you

36:15

out, learn more. What's the best place for them to go? I

36:17

know you mentioned you had a newsletter. Yeah, absolutely.

36:19

So if you go to thesubscriptiondoc.com,

36:21

that's my website. You can find

36:23

access to my newsletter, podcast, consulting

36:27

stuff. I'd also say just

36:29

look me up on LinkedIn. Matthew Holman and subscription,

36:31

and you'll find me because I mean, there's

36:33

not too many subscription people on there. These

36:35

are gold nuggets for anybody who has any

36:37

type of business, whether they have a product

36:40

or you have a service, you've

36:42

got to consider the subscription model. It

36:44

is massive. Absolutely. I can't wait for

36:46

these cuts. Yeah, it's going to be good. Yeah,

36:48

that's awesome. Thanks, Matthew. You've been great.

36:50

Thanks, guys. Thank

36:53

you again for listening to ClickFunnels

36:55

Radio. As many of you know,

36:57

Funnel Hacking Live is coming up in September, and

37:00

we're doing a little bit different this time. We're

37:02

actually doing this virtual from Las

37:04

Vegas in this huge, amazing studio.

37:06

One of the reasons we're doing this, we're calling it Funnel

37:08

Hacking Live International because Russell has had so many people come

37:11

up to win requests. Hey, when are you coming to Brazil?

37:13

When are you going to come to Europe? When are you

37:15

going to come to the UK or Australia? We

37:18

are doing this worldwide. That way, people don't

37:20

have to worry about travel costs, hotel and

37:22

everything else. So this is a really unique

37:24

experience. You still have time. This is a

37:26

virtual event. It's from September 4th to September

37:29

7th. That's 2024. Don't

37:31

miss out. Go to funnelhackinglive.com right now

37:33

and get your tickets for Funnel

37:36

Hacking Live International. Once again, that

37:38

is funnelhackinglive.com and we will see

37:41

you there.