0:00

Taking on a top job is

0:02

unique in many ways. In this episode,

0:04

how to hear more of the truth

0:07

and where to begin with easy wins

0:09

and early moves. This

0:11

is Coaching for Leaders, Episode 685. Produced

0:16

by Innovate Learning, maximizing

0:19

human potential. Greetings

0:24

to you from Orange County, California.

0:27

This is Coaching for Leaders, and

0:29

I'm your host, Dave Stahoviak. Leaders

0:32

aren't born, they're made. And

0:35

this weekly show helps you

0:37

discover leadership wisdom through insightful

0:39

conversations. One of the

0:41

realities that many of us face in

0:43

our careers is starting a top job.

0:46

And when we get into the role,

0:48

it's exciting, can be nerve

0:50

wracking, and often it's hard to

0:52

know where to start, what to do,

0:54

and what not to do. Today a

0:56

conversation that will help us all to

0:59

do a better job at starting that

1:01

top job. I'm so pleased to welcome

1:03

Ty Wiggins to the show. He's a

1:05

leadership expert who's passionate about setting up

1:07

new CEOs for success. As

1:09

the global lead of Russell Reynolds

1:11

Associates CEO and executive transition practice,

1:14

he helps world leading CEOs successfully

1:16

transition into their new roles, guiding

1:19

them through their first 12 to 18

1:21

months as their trusted advisor.

1:24

He is the author of the

1:26

new CEO, Lessons from CEOs on

1:28

how to start well and perform

1:30

quickly minus the common mistakes. Ty,

1:32

what a pleasure to have you.

1:35

Thank you very much for having me, Dave. It's great to be here.

1:38

You have a really beautiful

1:40

quote at the start of one of

1:42

the chapters of the book. That's so true.

1:45

It says, as the well-known saying

1:47

adapted for the business world goes,

1:49

as CEO, you can count on two things.

1:52

You will never be given a cold coffee

1:54

and you will never hear the whole truth.

1:58

And I read that and I thought, wow, how true. that

2:00

is things really are different

2:04

aren't they?

2:07

Yeah once you become CEO or

2:09

even in other roles that are

2:11

very senior, there's this change

2:13

that happens in terms of how people

2:15

see you and how people treat you

2:17

and especially around what

2:19

people tell you. So this

2:21

is one of the areas where new CEOs

2:25

and new senior leaders really

2:27

need to quickly adjust their

2:29

thinking and almost accept

2:31

that this is changed and sometimes

2:34

you find senior leaders really

2:36

resisting that that acceptance.

2:39

What is it that you see

2:41

people when you're working with them

2:43

tend to resist? I think a

2:45

lot of people come through the ranks with

2:47

a you know emerging ideas of

2:49

what type of senior leader they'll

2:52

be or when I'm CEO I'm

2:54

going to be like this and I'm not going to be like that.

2:57

So when you come out of

2:59

the C-suite especially that there is

3:01

sometimes a resistance to really

3:03

step fully into the role of the CEO.

3:05

You still want to be part of the

3:07

team. These are people at your level, they

3:09

may have been peers if you came internally

3:12

and you don't want to lose that

3:14

connection and you don't want to suddenly

3:16

become this sort of all

3:18

powerful leader but the reality

3:21

is that becoming CEO changes the

3:23

dynamics of the relationship. You just

3:25

can't have the same candidate, you

3:28

can't have the same exchanges and

3:31

you are increasingly watched and

3:33

scrutinized in terms of what you

3:35

say and what you do. So

3:38

the quicker that the CEO

3:40

accepts this, the easier

3:42

it is for everyone else to perform because

3:44

the challenge on the senior leadership team is

3:47

they need to accept this as well which

3:49

they generally do far faster but if

3:52

you hold them in this in-between period it

3:54

can make it quite difficult for you to

3:56

really lead and perform. highlight

4:00

in your work is that when you're

4:02

in the top job you see more

4:04

but you hear less and

4:07

you say that this is

4:10

particularly difficult for people who

4:12

were promoted internally. What

4:15

is it that's more difficult for

4:17

someone that's come up through the

4:19

ranks inside the organization? It's

4:21

a comfort level with a

4:24

status quo. So if

4:26

you're an externally recruited CEO,

4:29

you come in accepting that people will

4:31

take time to get to know you,

4:33

take time to trust you and

4:36

so your information flow will

4:38

be restricted. So you have this cognitive

4:40

understanding of what that's going to

4:43

be like. When you're

4:45

promoted internally, you're sort of

4:47

let into this false perception of the information

4:49

flow that you've already been used

4:51

to and you know if it

4:53

was me I'd be saying they know me,

4:56

they've known me for a long time, me

4:58

becoming CEO, nothing's going to

5:01

change, I'm still going to

5:03

be close to the front line, I'm

5:05

still going to get the same level

5:07

of information and so they can be

5:09

blindsided and you know there's

5:11

a couple of examples in the book. Mark

5:14

Bitzer is one when he became CEO of

5:16

Whirlpool. He was disappointed

5:18

that the information that

5:20

he was receiving was suddenly filtered

5:23

at such a greater level and

5:25

one of the things that I say to

5:27

CEOs regularly is that you know the

5:29

same way senior management

5:32

filters information going down,

5:34

people at the front line filter

5:36

information coming up and I argue

5:39

in many cases the thickest filter

5:41

is the C-suite. They're the ones

5:44

usually with good intentions who are

5:46

the last packages of the narrative,

5:48

who are the last adjusters of the

5:51

decks. They're the ones that iron out

5:53

any of the wrinkles so

5:55

you have to be really really careful that

5:57

you aren't assuming the same level Of

5:59

Information. Level Of transparency of information.

6:02

That. You will rely on Ssh Wait

6:04

member because you now have bigger.

6:07

More. Difficult problems to solve and decisions

6:09

to make. You need more information

6:11

and in fact you are getting

6:13

less. You. See in the book that if

6:15

you don't believe this is happening to you and

6:17

the top job, it's one of your blind spots

6:19

and. I. Think about that in

6:21

like part is this is. Mine.

6:24

Said right Understanding that.

6:26

That is happening that when you're in

6:28

a top jobs you are getting filtered

6:30

information and. The sooner you

6:33

make peace with that reality, the

6:35

more you can do to actually.

6:38

Find and surface the information that you need

6:40

it. M I am I hearing that will.

6:43

Absolutely. You. You have

6:45

to acknowledge it if you, if you kids

6:47

yourself. That. Nothing's changed. and you

6:49

that you finger on the polls and

6:52

then everyone from the. Front. Line

6:54

to the senior exec A telling you

6:56

the bear honest truth that is absolutely

6:59

a blind spot. Present is not what

7:01

happens and again it's not necessarily people

7:03

wanting to the saviors. But. People

7:06

want to look good in your eyes.

7:08

They want to please you. They don't

7:10

want tell you things that you don't

7:12

want to hear. They want to try

7:14

and fix problems before it gets here.

7:16

There's a lot of aspects of good

7:18

intended behavior. But. What it does mean

7:21

is that you are not getting the information that

7:23

you think you're getting. So. As a

7:25

new Ceo, You really have

7:27

to think about a identifying those

7:29

rare people that will tell you

7:31

the blatant truth regardless of repercussions.

7:34

And. Hold them close and encourage that.

7:36

But. You'll see a lot of sea

7:39

ice internal and external, doing lots

7:41

of front line meeting, listening to

7:43

his lunches with the Cia breakfast

7:45

and things like that where and

7:47

not only in the new a

7:49

the early stages, but consistently to

7:51

make sure that they're at least

7:53

posturing the opportunity. For. People to

7:55

tell them what's really important. One.

7:57

of the were the questions that i encourage

8:00

CEOs to ask when they become

8:02

CEO is to go at all

8:05

levels of the organization, but especially at the front

8:07

line and ask people, tell

8:09

me some of the workarounds that you have in place.

8:12

And what this fosters is there

8:14

are workarounds that people have around

8:17

processes or policies or structure

8:19

or systems because it just doesn't work.

8:22

And they've probably tried to get it

8:24

changed unsuccessfully, so they create this workaround.

8:27

If you can get people talking about

8:29

the workarounds, you'll get a really good

8:31

understanding of what is getting between them

8:33

and successfully executing their role. And

8:36

you're in a position then where you can actually

8:38

make some early changes that really engages

8:41

the workforce. One

8:43

of the distinctions that I'm thinking about

8:45

is that as the top person, you

8:48

really have to be intentional

8:50

to open those doors

8:53

for the conversation and lead it. And you

8:55

call it finding your espresso machine. The

8:59

discourse, the debate that you may have been used

9:01

to in your last role or on a senior

9:03

team or in the C-suite just

9:06

doesn't happen naturally to all the things you

9:08

just mentioned. And so being the person who

9:10

actually leaves that, opens the door is key

9:13

because if you don't, no one else will. Yeah,

9:15

you have to be so careful. And

9:18

this is one of the key changes

9:20

between being a C-suite executive and the

9:22

CEO. When you're a

9:24

C-suite executive, you are encouraged to

9:27

give your opinion at all

9:29

manner of things. And there

9:31

isn't really a timing issue because when

9:34

you're in the C-suite, if there's a

9:36

discussion at the C-suite level

9:38

with the CEO, then you're lobbying for

9:40

something. Then it's everything you can

9:42

do to get that best outcome. So

9:45

you introduce your opinion upfront, you

9:47

can be a little bit more

9:49

sharp in terms of your responses

9:51

and challenges. You're trying to sway

9:53

people, you're trying to influence them

9:55

to your way of thinking. When

9:58

you're the CEO, you're... ability

10:00

to influence is significantly

10:02

increased. So there's always

10:04

that funny analogy that comes around on

10:07

places like LinkedIn where the leader walks

10:09

into the room and says, okay,

10:12

here's the problem. Here's what

10:14

I think we should do. But I'm really interested

10:16

in your opinion, so tell me what you think. And

10:19

of course, we know that it's done at that point.

10:21

The way as a CEO you frame

10:24

up a discussion can also

10:26

end the discussion. So

10:28

in the book I talk about

10:30

that Nelson Mandela quote around leaders

10:32

should speak last because as

10:35

CEO, once you've framed

10:37

it, outlined it, set

10:39

up the discussion, dealt

10:41

with the silence in the room because you felt

10:43

the obligation to lead, you have

10:45

led the witness in such a way

10:47

that you will now only hear back

10:50

basically what you have put out.

10:53

And you invite us to

10:55

get out of the bubble that

10:58

just naturally forms in the

11:01

top job. And one

11:03

way to do that actually comes back to something

11:05

you mentioned a minute ago, but I'd love to

11:08

dive in on that more is spending

11:10

more time with middle managers

11:12

and frontline employees. And you write

11:14

in the book in RRA's research,

11:16

49% of CEOs

11:18

said they spent too little time with

11:20

middle managers and frontline employees, but those

11:22

who do, it can be

11:24

an invaluable way to get a feel

11:26

for what's really going on. I

11:29

love that question that you asked about, tell

11:32

me some of the workarounds you have in place, talking

11:34

to middle managers, frontline folks of

11:37

the folks you've worked with and observed

11:40

who you've seen really do that well

11:42

to get connected with middle management, frontline

11:44

employees. What is it they

11:46

do to actually connect and open up

11:48

those conversations? This

11:50

is an interesting aspect because I often

11:53

get asked, do I see differences

11:55

between first time and second time CEOs? And

11:58

I've had the opportunity to support. second,

12:00

third, and fourth time CEOs? And

12:03

the answer is yes. And one of

12:05

the differences is the amount of time they

12:08

spend with people early on. So

12:11

a first time CEO will be more inclined

12:13

to spend time on the financials and the

12:15

operating model and the physical infrastructure and the

12:17

things that they feel they need to get

12:19

their head around. Second and

12:21

third time CEOs spend their first month

12:24

to two months out in the field

12:26

talking to people, and they don't

12:28

do rapid fire half an hour

12:30

discussions. They actually get into these

12:32

discussions because what they understand intrinsically

12:35

is if I want to

12:38

do well with this organization, if I

12:40

want to move this organization forward, then

12:43

everything I really need to understand about what

12:45

is performing and stopping it from performing is

12:47

locked in the people. It's not

12:49

in the decks. It's not in the reports. So

12:52

they spend this disproportionate time with people.

12:55

And I think the people that do it really, really

12:57

well, they come back

12:59

with great information. They

13:01

then feed that information back to the

13:03

organization. So one of the suggestions I

13:05

make to clients is when

13:08

you're a new CEO, people are really

13:10

fixated on what you're learning and what

13:12

you're thinking. So share that. So

13:14

I had one CEO in the UK. She

13:16

did a fantastic job of writing an email

13:18

to the organization every week for the first

13:20

10 weeks saying, here's where I

13:22

went. Here's what I'm hearing.

13:24

Here's what I'm learning. And

13:27

here's what I'm starting to sort of understand and

13:29

write it very much in the present tense. And

13:32

this fostered this enormous information flow

13:34

because people would say, oh, wow.

13:37

So if you've learned that, now you need to

13:39

actually know this because that's the next level.

13:42

Or they were able to challenge what she was understanding.

13:45

So what it did was it really brought

13:47

her forward to the organization in a way

13:49

that the organization felt like they knew her

13:52

at a much faster rate than you would normally see.

13:55

And it's a little different than some

13:57

of the traditional advice that we hear

13:59

about. about the first 90

14:02

days, the first 100 days as a

14:04

measure of success. And

14:07

you say that the focus on the

14:09

first 90, first 100 days, depending on

14:11

the model, is a bit

14:14

overstated sometimes. What is it

14:16

that's overstated about it? I

14:18

think the emphasis on your

14:20

transition last 90 days is overstated.

14:22

At junior levels as leaders, yes,

14:24

maybe you can get a lot

14:26

of stuff done in your first

14:29

90 days because it's very basic.

14:31

But as a CEO, by the

14:33

end of 90 or 100 days, you're

14:35

still really coming to grips with the

14:37

organization, understanding your team, you're starting to

14:39

get a real sense of the culture.

14:42

Cultures are one of those things that you

14:44

can't really understand externally. And even

14:47

if you're internal, there's a big difference

14:49

between being part of the culture and

14:51

being responsible for it. So at the

14:53

end of 90 days or 100 days, I think

14:56

the CEO needs to be really

14:58

measured and think about how he

15:00

or she will score their progress.

15:03

You will unlikely to

15:05

have moved the needle significantly in that period

15:07

of time. There will always be

15:09

some things I talk to clients about. These

15:12

early actions are really important. You can

15:15

be very discerning where you put your

15:17

time and energy can make a

15:19

big difference. But I talk a lot about finding

15:22

some of the things that are frustrating

15:24

the organization, finding some of

15:26

the things that are important to people

15:28

at various levels but have been ignored

15:30

or left alone and really getting

15:32

to the end of that 100 days with a

15:34

sense of what have I

15:37

learned, what have I understood. And obviously,

15:39

if something is on fire, then

15:42

you need to put it out. But if

15:44

something's been smoldering and been smoldering for some time,

15:46

you can probably leave it for a little while

15:48

longer because the biggest risk

15:50

you have as the new CEO

15:52

is making decisions or judgments

15:55

without the proper context or information and

15:58

then finding yourself having to change. change

16:00

that down the track, sort

16:02

of the Amazon two-way doors, I

16:04

guess. Making decisions

16:06

on a one-way door really early, that is

16:09

quite restrictive to your ability to perform longer

16:11

term. Yeah, indeed, and not

16:13

being able to go back on that decision.

16:16

But this reminds me of an exchange

16:19

you write in the book that just

16:22

really, I think, captures the complexity of this.

16:24

You say, I have had

16:27

conversations with every CEO I've worked

16:29

with and often several times over

16:31

hear things like this. Should I

16:34

take my time and learn the organization?

16:36

Yes. But if I move too slowly, do

16:38

I run the risk of the board getting rid of me?

16:40

Yes. Do people need to feel the impact

16:43

of a new CEO? Yes. But

16:45

do I run the risk of losing people because I move

16:47

too fast? Yes. So

16:49

what should I do? Be patient or go fast? Yes.

16:53

I was

16:55

reading through that and thinking, it really

16:57

does illustrate the complexity and the art

16:59

of trying to know what to move

17:02

on and not. And the

17:04

distinction you just highlighted, I think,

17:06

is such a helpful one. If

17:08

it's on fire, fix it. But

17:10

if it's smoldering, leave it alone

17:12

until you have more context. And I guess that

17:15

begs the question, how do you know the

17:17

difference sometimes? Because it's sometimes hard to know in the moment.

17:19

Yes. That's probably one of the key

17:22

challenges is that when you come

17:24

in, you need to be

17:26

prepared to be heavily lobbied. People

17:28

will try to catch you off balance and

17:31

push through things that they want done

17:33

because you haven't got full context or

17:36

bring things to your attention because it's really important to

17:38

them. And as CEO,

17:40

everybody else's urgent and

17:43

important will come towards you. But you need to

17:45

be really clear about what is actually important for

17:48

you. So this determining whether it's

17:50

on fire or smoldering, it's going

17:52

to be challenging. This balance

17:55

between Learning and listening and

17:57

moving has a couple of factors. One of them

17:59

is you. I prefer yard.

18:01

There's. A high bias to action is

18:04

this is your first c or wrong.

18:06

There is pressure and a lot of

18:08

the pressure that you feel will actually

18:10

come from yourself. So. I've worked with

18:12

a lotta sea where we've gotten to three

18:14

months and they said things like i haven't

18:16

done anything yet or a to do something

18:18

really quickly. And. I've been able to

18:20

point out that they have done a lot

18:23

of things and that the boys expectation is

18:25

that these things take six to nine months

18:27

so that as an opportunity to exceed the

18:29

expectation that there's very little when in running

18:31

down a path to the quickly just to

18:33

satisfy your own. Some. Concern.

18:36

About your ability to do this. So.

18:38

It is. It is it. It is

18:40

a real challenge and I think these

18:42

these early actions and the shifting into

18:44

action. Eat. This is where

18:47

you need to be asking the right questions.

18:49

This is where you need to be patient.

18:51

This is where you need to be really

18:53

clever with your language that you don't say

18:55

something that people latch on to and go.

18:58

Hey guys, focus is this. So let's bring

19:00

all the information to him on this on

19:02

this matter. And. Either you need

19:04

to be very aware of. Some. Of

19:06

devices that you have like the yeah

19:09

it isn't availability bias which is the

19:11

more available the information the more I

19:13

trusted. So the law people lobby meal

19:15

told me about something the one gonna

19:17

lean into that. And. Then. The.

19:20

Big boss that I say. people coming in

19:22

that really affects them early as their own

19:24

consolation bus. Your. It feels really

19:26

good. To. Find things that you

19:29

expect to find because it reinforces

19:31

to you that you're the right

19:33

person. So this adage of inspect

19:35

what you expect. Is. Really

19:37

valuable early because you can run down

19:39

a series of pathways. Because. You

19:41

wanted to find something along behold. You.

19:44

Find it. You.

19:46

Mentioned a moment ago that. It's.

19:49

Helpful to ask the right questions

19:51

and this of course Tejas contextually

19:53

everywhere. And. yet i'm i'm

19:56

wondering if you have stumbled across

19:58

a question or two someone

20:00

struggling with the, you know, is

20:06

confirmation bias. That sometimes helps

20:08

just to separate that a little bit. There's

20:11

a number of really great questions

20:13

that I think, and I encourage

20:15

leaders at all levels to adopt. One

20:17

is when you are doing early

20:20

rounds of one-on-ones and

20:22

group meetings, that at

20:24

some point in the discussion, you

20:26

ask a version of the question,

20:29

what didn't I ask about but should have?

20:32

And I find this because working across the

20:34

world, most of the cultures

20:36

are fairly compliant. If you ask me

20:38

about something, then I'll answer. But

20:40

if you don't raise it, I won't necessarily

20:42

raise it. So this is the sort

20:45

of unconscious incompetence, the concept that you

20:47

don't know what you don't know. So

20:49

as new CEO, you don't know necessarily

20:51

what to ask. So you need to

20:54

create an environment which puts people a

20:56

bit on the spot. And I've seen

20:58

this personally where people, they fidget and

21:00

they go, oh, that's a good

21:02

question. You really should have asked about the audit. You

21:04

really should have asked about the regulatory body. You should

21:07

have asked about the issue we had four years ago

21:09

because that led to this. So if you

21:11

can start to ask a question like that

21:14

and do it consistently for a number of

21:16

months, what it says to

21:18

the organization is that I am

21:20

truly committed to learning and understanding

21:23

what's going on. I need to understand

21:25

what got us to this point. And

21:27

I'm doing that in the in the

21:29

desire to serve. So the faster you

21:31

can bring me up to speed, the

21:33

more effective I can be for you.

21:36

So that's one of the questions that I really

21:38

encourage people to use in these

21:40

early meetings. When you decide

21:42

to start doing

21:45

something that moves

21:47

forward in some way, there's a

21:49

distinction you make between early

21:51

wins and early moves.

21:55

And I'm wondering if you could

21:57

tell me about that distinction and then what

21:59

is. that's critical about

22:02

early wins? There's

22:04

a lot of focus on early

22:07

wins or quick wins. The distinction

22:09

is that you need to be sure about

22:12

who this is a win for.

22:14

And so as a new CEO, your

22:17

early actions will send really

22:19

clear messages to the organization about

22:21

your focus. So one of

22:23

the areas where I see new CEOs

22:25

do really well is where some

22:28

of these easy wins are

22:30

directed towards the employee to

22:32

the staff, to the things

22:35

that demotivate. You've got a

22:37

good group of people. Most organizations have

22:39

people that are fairly well motivated, but

22:42

there are demotivators along the way. There

22:44

are things that are problematic. So how

22:47

do you as a new

22:49

CEO, as you're moving around,

22:51

work out what is really

22:53

frustrating people? Some people would use it

22:55

as a magic wand type question. If

22:57

I had a small wand and

22:59

a large wand, I could make small changes and

23:02

big changes, what would I change? Another

23:04

question might be, if you were in

23:06

the CEO role, what would you do

23:08

to make the roles of

23:12

people in the organization better? What are the

23:14

things that really annoy? So some of these

23:16

easy wins are things that are just sort

23:18

of sitting there. And in the book, I

23:21

use the example from the show Ted

23:24

Lasso, where he has his suggestion box.

23:26

And most of the suggestions aren't very helpful.

23:28

But one of them is around fixing the

23:30

water pressure in the shower. And

23:32

it's a small fix. It's clearly not a

23:34

big issue to have someone come and fix

23:36

that. But the fact that people hadn't fixed

23:39

it, spoke volumes to the

23:41

players about the care factor. And

23:44

so the fact that Ted fixed it

23:46

early, even though it was very small,

23:48

made a big difference. And I've seen

23:50

that with organizations. One CEO had people

23:52

in two buildings on different floors, and

23:54

no one could communicate. And in

23:56

the third week, he moved everybody. And

23:58

movers come in a move it around. So

24:01

that was a clear indication of something that wasn't a

24:04

massive win for the organization but

24:06

a clear action saying I'm interested,

24:08

I'm listening and I care. And

24:11

so I put those type of things in the

24:13

easy win category. For the

24:15

early moves that's where you're starting to

24:17

make bigger, broader decisions and

24:19

again it takes time to

24:22

really start to change the direction of

24:24

the organization. You will start forming views

24:26

really early and so when

24:28

I talk about early moves, I'm thinking

24:30

about things that are usually sitting just

24:32

below the surface. When you step

24:35

into the CEO role, there's inevitably

24:37

a number of projects or initiatives

24:39

that are part completed or have

24:41

been considered but the former

24:43

CEO or management team hasn't done it. And

24:46

some of these things are because

24:48

the political reward is

24:51

so far down the track that the current CEO

24:53

or current leadership team don't want to do it.

24:55

So I'm not going to invest in this because

24:57

it's going to take X amount of

24:59

capital and we're not going to see benefits for four years

25:01

and I need stuff now. So there are

25:03

some things that will always be there that you'll

25:06

be able to find and so identifying

25:08

those and making those early moves whether

25:11

it's settling a dispute legally, whether

25:13

it's getting rid of a business that everyone

25:15

knows should have been gone a long time

25:17

ago, whether it's finally making the

25:19

decision on the CRM system or

25:21

the IT infrastructure, things that have been hanging

25:24

around for a while, you know

25:26

good early moves to make. This

25:28

goes back to our conversation

25:31

about the 90 days, 100 days

25:33

that the early moves

25:35

especially, you're probably not going to be doing

25:37

that in the the first 90 or 100

25:39

days because you're not going to have the

25:41

context of what are those moves that are

25:44

going to really help the organization over the next

25:46

five to ten years. Correct. These are

25:48

things that you need to, the easy

25:50

wins, yes, maybe. The early

25:53

moves, this is really a sort of

25:55

three to nine month process where

25:58

you've got enough information and for

26:00

some CEOs, it's identifying

26:04

the board's alignment to these as

26:06

well. Some of the things

26:08

that CEOs come in to change

26:10

or want to change fairly early, I encourage

26:13

them to work out who the

26:15

original sponsor was and

26:17

if it's the chair or if it's the board, that

26:20

needs to be dealt with as well. So it does

26:22

take time to understand these but once you

26:24

do have some of these in front of you and

26:27

you can see that the organisation is

26:29

frustrated by a lack of decision

26:31

or a lack of action, you

26:33

can sometimes make these decisions quite quickly

26:35

because you will have a degree

26:37

of objectivity around the fact that this

26:40

decision has been hanging around for two years and

26:42

it's very common for organisations to have these

26:44

things in place. So deal with them if

26:46

you can as also you

26:49

should deal with any of the external

26:51

challenges. It's not unusual for

26:53

CEOs to come into roles and

26:55

then understand that there are legal

26:58

challenges or disputes in place.

27:01

These can be enormously distracting. So

27:03

these are sort of cleaning up some of

27:06

the initial messes is also something

27:08

that CEOs need to focus on and this can

27:10

be quite a derailleur. You come in

27:12

thinking you're going to do all of

27:14

the positive shiny activities and

27:17

you spend your first couple of months in the trenches

27:19

with the lawyers trying to settle cases that they should

27:21

never have been in place and shouldn't have been dragged

27:24

out as long as they were. Thinking

27:26

about the example that you mentioned in the book

27:28

of the – and I don't

27:30

remember the organisation but the CEO came in and

27:33

so much of their business was reliant on a

27:35

connection with Russia or Ukraine and a

27:37

week in the job all of a sudden there's a

27:39

war and the whole plan for the next few years

27:41

was kind of thrown out the window and I think

27:44

it just really speaks to what you

27:46

just said of the importance of taking the time,

27:48

the context and also knowing that things are going

27:50

to change. You're not going to come in and

27:52

things be exactly as you thought. You've got to

27:54

reserve time and space to know

27:56

that you're going to discover things as you go that

27:58

are going to change. What you decide to do

28:00

as those early moves. Yeah the that

28:03

that the flow of information. Is.

28:05

Obviously a normal. But.

28:07

Also the development of that inflation

28:10

so what you know at week

28:12

to. Is far more than double what

28:14

he knew a week one. And.

28:16

Say was week for too weak to

28:18

is exponential in those early months, Which

28:20

is why by the time you get

28:22

to this end of the ninety days,

28:25

he still in this exponential curve. It

28:27

hasn't even started to flatten out yet.

28:29

And. Example that you mention came from

28:31

Sanjeev Lambeau, who is the Ceo of

28:33

Windy. And. He was an internal

28:36

success out. It was a very

28:38

very smooth success and process. He

28:40

is a fantastic Cia. And

28:43

He had written this Perfect plan. Based.

28:45

On the advice he'd read in books

28:47

and and I think planning for your

28:50

transition is very beneficial and you should

28:52

definitely do that. You also need to

28:54

be able to adapt, and that was

28:56

his example. I think three or four

28:58

days into his. Being. Ceo

29:01

Russia invaded Ukraine and he had to

29:03

throw his plan out run another one.

29:05

So there is this. Constant.

29:07

Sort of, You're dealing with the changes

29:09

and being able to adapt while still

29:12

holding that broad direction that you want

29:14

to throw a transition in a longer

29:16

term for the organization. You.

29:18

Invite us to think about a tactic as

29:21

well. I think this is under the category

29:23

theory early ones, but. Tell me

29:25

if I'm wrong, are easy wins rather

29:27

the addressing a com and pinpoint and

29:29

you make the point. It doesn't have

29:32

to be enormous, but it does have

29:34

to be. Deliberate. And

29:36

I'm curious what a com in pain

29:38

point is in what do mean by.

29:41

Deliberate. A. Common time

29:43

point is you in all

29:45

organizations that tends to be.

29:48

Things. That. People talk about

29:50

quite icily at various levels. That.

29:53

Is not great, is not working. often

29:55

it's related to i t

29:58

systems or reporting structure or

30:00

the physical location I mentioned before was

30:03

one and that organisation was just how

30:05

silly it was that half of this

30:07

department was here and half of the

30:10

department were across the street because certain

30:12

individuals wanted this office because of the

30:14

view and etc etc. So

30:16

a common pain point of these things that again

30:19

the organisation is frustrated

30:21

with but they've almost become a little

30:24

bit dull too because no one's changed

30:26

it. So as you

30:28

move around as the CEO or

30:30

a senior leader asking questions

30:32

about what frustrates people, what

30:35

demotivates, what makes the job harder than

30:37

it needs to be, what

30:39

are the things that we used

30:41

to do really well but no longer

30:43

do or what are the things

30:45

that we do that we should no longer do

30:48

and where are these things where you know

30:50

as a leadership team we

30:52

have failed to either

30:55

remove the blockage or enable you or

30:58

unlock the challenges that you've got to

31:00

be successful and to make things easy and

31:03

there's generally a bunch of stuff and

31:05

it's often really really small so if

31:07

you can cotton on to this early

31:10

verify it as you need to

31:12

and make some of these smaller changes it

31:15

speaks volumes to the organisation. So

31:17

when you start to move the

31:19

organisation and start to ask the

31:21

organisation to change and

31:23

to accelerate or to perform

31:26

at a different level, if you

31:28

have first engaged them by

31:30

removing some of the things that make

31:32

their day-to-day job difficult, you have

31:34

a greater chance of them coming with you. As

31:37

I read the book there was so much

31:39

that I thought wow this would be such

31:42

a useful guide for someone who's moving

31:44

into the top role and I think

31:46

you know we've all heard the models on 90 days 100

31:49

days of starting a new role and those are really useful

31:51

models and oftentimes they're more general

31:53

of all kinds of different roles. What

31:55

I love about your book is that it's

31:58

so focused on their own. top

32:00

role. And maybe it is the CEO or

32:02

maybe it's executive director or maybe it's general

32:04

manager or maybe it's a regional VP but

32:06

it's a role that is a senior

32:09

role that you're moving into and there's

32:11

a lot of folks looking at you

32:14

and what a great step-by-step guide

32:16

this is. And I think also really

32:18

helpful even if you're not in

32:20

that role yet, maybe you're supporting someone

32:22

who's making that transition, maybe you're on the

32:24

board, I mean what a useful guide for

32:26

being able to help folks do that well

32:28

in such a concise way. So Ty, I'm

32:30

so glad that you have brought this into

32:32

the world and we'll be linking up to

32:34

it of course and the notes and the

32:36

weekly leadership guide for everyone. Ty, I've got

32:38

one last question for you. As you have

32:41

put together the book, as

32:43

you've been talking with folks about

32:45

it over recent months and supporting

32:48

the CEOs you're working with

32:50

today, I'm curious, you know,

32:52

leaders are always learning and growing themselves, what

32:55

if anything have you changed your mind on in

32:57

the last year or two as you've put this together? The

33:01

aspect that I think really was

33:03

reinforced to me through doing the

33:05

interviews around the book and

33:08

as a blind spot for myself, I

33:10

think I had become a little blasé

33:12

about the impact on

33:14

CEOs of how lonely the role

33:16

is and I think that's in

33:19

part because I'm a solution to

33:21

part of that problem. When

33:23

I work with CEOs I provide that

33:26

sense of confidential sounding board and

33:28

advisor so I step into that.

33:31

So I had I had undervalued a

33:33

little bit over time by watching it

33:35

too often and so to have people

33:37

like Roman Leguata and Carol Tamay and

33:39

Mark Bitzer and Mark Clouse talk about

33:41

this loneliness is a thing and it

33:44

it's really takes some getting used to

33:46

and it's quite challenging to

33:49

be at the top of the house in

33:51

terms of the organization and

33:53

I describe it as feeling like you're

33:55

alone in a crowd. You're very rarely

33:58

physically alone but this loneliness aspect is

34:00

quite a thing and it can become more

34:06

focused on that as a discussion.

34:11

I'm more focused on how we

34:13

build networks and doing a better

34:15

job of connecting new CEOs to

34:17

other CEOs because that's a network they often

34:20

don't have accessible to

34:22

solve this loneliness challenge. Thank

34:26

you so much for your work. Thank

34:35

you guys for having me. You're great. If

34:43

this conversation was helpful to you, three

34:45

related episodes I'd recommend. One of them

34:48

is episode 590, how to genuinely show

34:50

up for others. Marshall Goldsmith was my

34:52

guest on that episode, top executive coach.

34:55

Marshall and I talked about the reality

34:57

that is so true for leaders and

34:59

especially leaders in top jobs, which

35:02

is you often find yourself going

35:04

into all kinds of different conversations throughout

35:06

the day. One

35:08

conversation may be giving someone very difficult

35:10

feedback. The next

35:13

conversation may be celebrating an

35:15

award at a very visible event.

35:17

The next conversation may be thinking

35:19

about the future and being very

35:21

present and listening to someone. Top

35:24

leaders are changing context all the time and

35:26

yet they've learned the best at least, how

35:28

to show up in the moment well. Marshall

35:33

in that conversation talks about the concept of singular

35:35

empathy and how we can do a better job

35:37

of showing up in the moment regardless

35:39

of what may have happened before or after that conversation.

35:41

Episode 590 for Roadmap for You on how to do

35:43

that. I

35:46

also recommend the work of Carol

35:48

Kaufman, episode 617, another coach of

35:50

top leaders, how to start a

35:53

big leadership role. Carol and

35:55

I talked about some of the

35:57

patterns that she sees when executives begin to

35:59

work. begin in new roles, top leaders

36:01

start and it's a wonderful compliment to this

36:03

conversation. We talked about some key concepts that

36:06

we didn't talk about today and vice versa.

36:08

I think it's a great compliment to this,

36:10

episode 617 especially if you're taking on a

36:12

new job or a big role. I think

36:14

it's a great one for you to be

36:16

listening to. And then finally, episode

36:19

662, how an executive

36:21

aligns with a board. Joan Gary was

36:23

my guest on that episode, a tremendous

36:26

leader in the nonprofit space. If you're

36:28

an executive director on the leadership

36:30

team of a nonprofit or on the

36:32

board of a nonprofit, you should absolutely

36:34

know about Joan's work. She

36:36

has just done phenomenal work over years

36:38

of helping nonprofit leaders do

36:41

well. And in that conversation

36:43

specifically, we talk about how to align

36:45

well with a board, so many resources,

36:47

tactics in that conversation. And of course,

36:49

many that Joan offers as part of

36:52

her website and membership as well. That's

36:54

episode 662 for that. All

36:56

of those episodes, of course, you can

36:59

find on the coachingforleaders.com website. If

37:01

you've not already, I'm inviting you

37:03

today to set up your free

37:05

membership at coachingforleaders.com. It's going to

37:07

open up access to a whole

37:09

bunch of benefits inside of the

37:11

free membership. There's a bunch of

37:13

free audio courses, our entire library

37:16

of episodes searchable by topic. And

37:18

also access to all of my interview and book

37:21

notes. I did today, as I do for many

37:23

conversations with Ty, thought about in advance, what are

37:25

the kinds of things I want to be asking

37:27

him? I got those down on my interview notes.

37:30

I've also pulled a number of relevant

37:32

quotes from the book that I think

37:34

that you should probably reflect on, thinking

37:37

about this conversation. Those are all in

37:39

the interview notes, not only for this

37:41

conversation, but all of the interviews in

37:44

recent years. It is part of

37:46

the free membership. You can look on book

37:48

and interview notes, or you can just find

37:50

it on each individual episode library

37:52

inside of the episode notes.

37:55

All of that's part of the free membership

37:57

plus a bunch more. Just go over to

37:59

coachingforleaders.com. set up your

38:01

free membership and I'd also invite you

38:04

to learn about Coaching for Leaders Plus

38:06

especially if you've had your free membership

38:08

for a bit because it's going to

38:10

open up tons more resources for you

38:12

and one of those resources is my

38:14

weekly journal entry. Earlier this month I

38:17

wrote a journal about the reality that

38:19

sometimes we tend to move too quickly

38:21

on things. You heard echoes of that

38:23

in this conversation today with Ty that

38:26

sometimes I find myself giving advice

38:28

to our members that the

38:30

best thing to do is nothing.

38:34

Absolutely nothing at least not beyond what

38:36

they've already done because sometimes we need

38:38

to wait for things to play out

38:40

sometimes we need more context and sometimes

38:43

takes time for things to affect

38:45

change inside of an organization. When do

38:47

you wait and when do you move?

38:49

It's a hard question to answer and

38:52

I share that perspective in one of

38:54

the recent journal entries. If you'd like

38:56

to get that journal entry from me

38:58

it's my writing my thoughts every single

39:00

week in your inbox. Coaching for Leaders

39:02

Plus is a place to look to

39:04

as one of those key benefits inside

39:06

of Coaching for Leaders Plus. Just go

39:08

over to coachingforleaders.plus to find

39:11

out more. Coaching for Leaders is

39:13

edited by Andrew Kroger. Production support

39:15

is provided by Sierra Priest. I'll

39:18

be back next Monday for our

39:20

next episode on leadership. Have a

39:22

great week and see you all

39:25

soon.