0:01

This is Kota Radio, episode 562 for March 21st, 2024. Hey,

0:15

good buddy, welcome in to Jupiter Broadcasting's weekly

0:18

talk show. Taking a pragmatic look at the

0:20

art and the business of software development and

0:23

the whole world of technology. My name

0:25

is Chris and grabbing the PDF hot

0:27

off the printer, it's our host, Mr.

0:29

Dominic. Hello, Mike. 80

0:32

pages of just dripping glory right

0:34

off the Justice Department grill. Fire, man,

0:36

it's just fire. I mean, it's fire,

0:38

it's going to end in failure,

0:40

but it's fire. Oh, and

0:43

it's so spicy. I got

0:45

back just in time from scale, you

0:47

know, because I literally got back last night. We rearranged

0:49

this show so I could record with you

0:51

on a Thursday. The DOJ drops this

0:53

bomb this morning and, you know, everybody was talking where I'm

0:55

talking to me came up and said, where's Mike? You know,

0:57

so everybody says they say when I go to these events,

0:59

they say, where's Mike? And usually I used to

1:02

say, you know, he's in Florida. He's got

1:04

the kid. It's quite a trek, you know, got the biz,

1:06

et cetera, et cetera. But that's

1:08

that never really leaves them with like

1:10

a sensation of satisfaction. You know what

1:12

I mean? No. So I've

1:14

come up with a new answer this year and I think it

1:16

really can. I guess. Can I guess he's

1:18

doing a deposition and a potential Apple trial.

1:22

No, that'd be really good. No, I went

1:24

for something that seemed pretty on character, but

1:26

not not actually the truth. But, you

1:28

know, if we just lean into it, I just

1:30

tell him, oh, you came. You just

1:32

partied a little too hard last night and you're back in

1:35

the hotel room shaking off a hangover and

1:37

like, oh, he's so he's here. And I'm like, I can't

1:39

keep your eye out for him. Jesus Christ. So

1:43

they're going to go, you know, harass some poor

1:45

dude on the plane with the shakes on the way

1:47

back. Yeah.

1:49

Well, that just means they're looking for you for there. I think

1:51

it's like a game. It's like I don't know if you

1:54

ever played that game as a kid where they tell you to

1:56

go hunt for that bird in the forest. It doesn't actually exist.

1:58

Yeah, that's you. You're that. I

2:01

was not, just so we all

2:03

know, partying hard this weekend because I have

2:05

decided, when I say I, I mean the

2:07

universe, you went to the conference, yet I

2:10

got the plague. Yeah. Because

2:13

children do not apparently

2:15

understand that they're murder

2:17

vectors. You didn't make it

2:19

to the conference, but you did

2:21

get yourself snapped with a listener. I did. Yeah,

2:24

and you had a big, big old cigar in

2:26

that phone. I was like, man, look at that

2:28

guy. He looks like a boss with a cigar.

2:31

You know, you're the kind of guy who can hold a

2:33

cigar like a mob boss. I'm from

2:35

New Jersey. It just seemed natural. I

2:38

don't even know if it was lit. It just looked

2:40

like a... Well, the best is the fat belly, the

2:42

slightly rosy cheeks, you know,

2:45

I would say the two martinis before health. You

2:47

know, but you bring it in. Like, even if

2:49

you don't light it, just walk around with that thing,

2:52

right? It's a brand. It's just like Churchill,

2:54

right? You just walk around like, ah, chewing

2:56

on it. But

2:58

it is good. It is good to be

3:00

back. We drove like crazy. It turns out California

3:02

is obscenely long when you go north to south.

3:06

And, you know, when you go to Pasadena, you're basically

3:08

going to the bottom of this thing almost.

3:11

And then you got to drive all the way up

3:13

through California, which is horrendously long, all

3:15

the way through Oregon. And then I live basically at

3:18

the north end of Washington. Oh, Jesus. So

3:20

it's a three-day drive home, three-day drive there.

3:22

Well, one day I'm going to make it

3:24

to Sasquatch country. That's my goal. You know,

3:26

when you drive around – we took the

3:28

coast, too – when you drive around, they

3:30

got the Sasquatch everywhere. They really

3:33

lean into the Squans. You'd love it. Do they really? Oh,

3:35

yeah. It's a big cultural thing in the

3:38

Pacific Northwest. I guess it's like we lean

3:40

into drunken criminal behavior and gators. Yeah, it's

3:43

our brand. Or New Jersey. Can

3:46

I just have a second? I know I'm jumping

3:48

the gun. The Department of Justice

3:50

chose New Jersey as the venue.

3:53

It's so perfect. It really

3:55

is so good. I feel like that's

3:58

going to be interesting when I envelope it. start

4:00

passing heads. But hey, who knows? Coder.show

4:04

membership. Support this show directly. We

4:06

have no sponsors right now, so

4:08

our members matter more than ever.

4:11

And I believe there are a couple of more

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Jar Jar promo codes to take advantage of which

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will take $2 a month off the lifetime of

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your membership. I don't even know how that deal got

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authorized. I didn't green light that. I thought these things

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had to go through me. Somehow

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Jar Jar seems to get these deals through. But

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you know what? What am I going to do? Take it away? That

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guy. I can't be the bad guy, so

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I'm going with it. Going with it, you can use

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the promo code Jar Jar. It works for new members.

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Existing members too? What,

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you just given the place away now? All

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right, existing members too, you can use promo code Jar

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Jar. So thank you. Or

4:50

if you want to reactivate your subscription, I go, okay, that wouldn't

4:52

make sense. Yeah, no, you didn't get there. Come

4:55

here. You get that. That's for you. You

4:57

know what I think there's like what? Four

4:59

redemptions left? I don't know how many there's left.

5:01

The guy's incompetent. So I don't know how many.

5:03

I don't know. But I know he just puts

5:05

a few more in there. So coder.show.com membership. You

5:07

want to support the show directly in a world

5:09

where this gimmick worked. We wouldn't need any sponsors.

5:12

That's possible, right? No, you did

5:15

the numbers. It's not possible. Okay. Well, I suppose another

5:17

way you can support each production directly is through

5:19

the boost. Those boosts go to

5:21

each production and the split goes to editor Drew, goes

5:23

to the network myself and of course into the pot

5:25

for Mr. Dominic. That's a way

5:27

to support each show directly without any middlemen. Nobody

5:30

taken their cut. No system that can be stopped.

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You know what I mean? You know what I'm

5:34

talking about. Maybe Mike says

5:36

something stupid and we get canceled. I mean, that's right. That could happen.

5:39

The boost don't care. And we also get to

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read your messages on the show. Anything above 2000

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greatly appreciate. And it's one of our favorite

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coder QA and the keeping the show on the air while

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we're struggling and the boosters, we

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show up every week, even if there isn't a sponsor to

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pay our, you know, proverbial

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pay. So we

6:02

do appreciate your support Coder.Show membership or send

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a boost to support each individual production. Coder.Show

6:08

membership. Yes,

6:11

so this morning the DOJ announced

6:14

they are suing Apple over an

6:16

iPhone monopoly in a quote landmark

6:18

antitrust case. It's

6:21

really it's something to behold and I got a

6:23

couple of minute clip from CNBC as the news

6:25

broke this morning. They do a decent

6:27

job outlining it so I'll let them do the heavy lift

6:29

here. Breaking news here on Apple

6:31

out of the DOJ. Amen Jabers has it.

6:34

Amen. Sarah this is

6:36

a civil antitrust lawsuit filed in

6:38

the United States District Court for

6:40

the District of New Jersey and

6:43

it alleges by the DOJ that

6:45

Apple illegally maintains a monopoly over

6:47

smartphones by selectively imposing contractual restrictions

6:49

on and withholding critical access points

6:52

from developers. The Department of Justice

6:54

alleges Apple has broken the law

6:56

specifically section two of the Sherman

6:59

Antitrust Act in five specific ways.

7:01

One by blocking innovative super apps.

7:04

They say Apple has disrupted the

7:06

growth of apps with broad functionality.

7:08

The second is by suppressing mobile

7:11

cloud streaming services. They say Apple

7:13

blocked the development of cloud streaming

7:15

apps and services that would allow

7:17

consumers to enjoy what they call

7:19

high quality video games and other

7:21

cloud based applications without having to

7:23

pay for expensive smartphone hardware. The

7:25

third is by excluding cross platform

7:27

messaging apps. The Department of Justice

7:30

says Apple has made the quality

7:32

of cross platform messaging worse, less

7:34

innovative and less secure for users

7:36

so that its customers have to

7:38

keep buying iPhones. The fourth is

7:40

by diminishing the functionality of non

7:42

Apple smart watches. Apple they say

7:45

has limited the functionality of these

7:47

third party smart watches so that

7:49

users who purchase the Apple watch

7:51

face substantial out of pocket costs

7:53

if they don't keep buying iPhones.

7:55

And the fifth category here is

7:57

limiting third party digital wallets. has

8:00

prevented third party apps from offering

8:02

tap to pay functionality, inhibiting the

8:04

creation of cross platform third party

8:06

digital wallets, which of course is

8:08

important in the whole paying ecosystem

8:11

here. Now the court process is

8:13

expected to take months, if not

8:15

years here. And guys,

8:17

there's a political overlay to all of this

8:19

because if president Biden is to lose to

8:21

Donald Trump in the fall, it's a Trump

8:23

department of justice that could be in charge

8:25

of handling the end game of this case,

8:27

not a Biden one, depending on that election

8:30

outcome. So it's not at all clear how

8:32

that would play out. Although some of the

8:34

Trump people were involved in

8:36

instigating this investigation into Apple in the

8:38

first place back during the first Trump

8:40

administration. So a lot of moving parts

8:43

here, guys, but the Department of Justice

8:45

now suing Apple on antitrust grounds back

8:47

over to you. All right, so there we

8:49

have it. A process that started, they say,

8:51

under the Trump administration, which has been brought

8:53

to its conclusion, well, it's beginning, I suppose,

8:57

under the Biden administration. Like

9:00

you noted, it's filed in Jersey. It's the US

9:02

government plus 16

9:04

states, including California have signed

9:06

along with this thing. Interesting,

9:09

my state hasn't the home state of

9:12

Microsoft and Amazon. I just find that

9:14

kind of interesting that they haven't. There's

9:16

a lot to this. And the

9:18

vibe is intense from the DOJ.

9:21

It opens the opening

9:23

paragraph is, quote, in

9:26

2010, a top executive emailed Apple's then CEO

9:28

about an ad for a new Kindle e-reader.

9:31

The ad began with a woman who was using her

9:33

iPhone to buy and read books on her Kindle app.

9:36

She then switches to Android smartphone and continues

9:38

to read her books using the same Kindle

9:40

app. The executive wrote to Jobs

9:43

one quote, message that can't

9:45

be missed is that it's easy to switch

9:47

from iPhone to Android, not fun to watch.

9:50

Jobs was clear in his response, writing Apple

9:53

would, quote, force developers to use its payment

9:55

system to lock in both developers and

9:57

users on his platform. The documentary

10:00

continues to read, over many

10:02

years Apple has repeatedly responded to competitive threats

10:04

like this one by making it harder and

10:07

more expensive for users and developers to

10:09

leave than by making it more attractive

10:11

for them to stay. And then

10:13

just a little bit further down a couple of

10:15

paragraphs later they write quote and

10:17

this is some serious spice here they say from

10:20

the complaint the suit directly quote

10:23

rather than respond to competitive threats

10:25

by offering lower smartphone prices to

10:27

consumers or better monetization for developers

10:30

Apple would meet competitive threats

10:32

by shape-shifting rules that restrict

10:34

its Apple app store guidelines

10:36

and developer agreements that would

10:38

allow Apple to extract higher

10:40

fees for innovation offer less

10:43

secure or degraded user experiences

10:45

and throttle competitive alternatives. Wait

10:47

a minute we've heard that

10:49

policy before ready now third

10:51

source let's see if I can do it I

10:54

am altering the deal pray I

10:56

don't alter it further. And Apple

10:58

always alters it further right they're always like

11:00

hey what's that? You're making quite a lot

11:02

of money on that fortnight there aren't you?

11:06

Yeah no you pass. Very

11:09

much but this is I mean

11:12

that just gives you a sense of the tone

11:15

they are going for the throat the

11:17

DOJ says they may seek a breakup

11:19

of Apple into smaller companies to have

11:21

what they call quote structural

11:24

relief of this issue.

11:26

Delusional. And they feel

11:28

like they're they're

11:30

a key innovator here they're a key partner

11:32

in the market Tim Wu who

11:35

is described I've links in the show notes described

11:37

as one of the architects of Biden's antitrust policy

11:39

says that it's really about

11:41

injecting innovation into the market. Everybody

11:44

that you guys are going after and I say

11:46

you guys because you did architect some of this

11:48

you know you did orchestrate some of this. Why

11:51

go after Americans stand out

11:53

innovative companies and agree

11:56

with basically what the Europeans are saying in

11:59

a way that couldn't change the way

12:01

we innovate, the way we lead. The idea,

12:03

I think, is to hold America's best companies

12:05

feet to the fire, that if

12:07

they're forced to compete, they get better, that

12:09

dominant companies become stagnant. It's an American

12:11

tradition. We did it with IBM. We

12:13

did it with AT&T. We

12:16

did it with Microsoft. And frankly, you

12:18

know, Standard Royal. But I mean, I'm talking about

12:20

tech leaders. And I'm saying that, you know,

12:22

suing Microsoft ended up being the best thing for the tech

12:24

industry. The theory is that no one

12:26

disputes that Apple is a great phone, a great,

12:28

great company. But you

12:30

know, the law is not a popularity contest. And

12:33

the idea is that they are got

12:36

where they are and have now built them out

12:39

to prevent anyone else from getting in there, preventing

12:41

people from switching new applications. So the idea is

12:43

in favor of more innovation. So you see, the

12:45

way you make the market more innovative is by

12:48

government manipulating the market. And they

12:50

this is in the suit. A

12:52

quote from the suit, they

12:55

write a path clearing antitrust enforcement

12:57

case brought by the United States

12:59

and state attorneys general against Microsoft,

13:02

open the market and constrain

13:04

Microsoft's ability to prohibit

13:06

companies like Apple from offering iTunes

13:08

on the Windows PC. And

13:11

then they go on to build a case. In fact,

13:13

they spend a awkward amount

13:15

of time in this 80 page document building

13:17

the case how their

13:19

clever antitrust enforcement against Microsoft

13:21

set a stage for a

13:24

15 year boom, which now

13:26

Apple benefits from and has now become

13:28

a monopoly. And all of

13:30

this success is because they quote, cleared

13:33

the way for Apple

13:36

by limiting Microsoft's ability to prevent

13:38

iTunes from shipping on Windows. So

13:40

Apple success is really because of

13:42

their antitrust enforcement against Microsoft, i.e.,

13:46

to define their current antitrust enforcement.

13:48

Absolutely true. I remember Janet Reno

13:50

and Cupertino just hacking away on

13:52

an iPhone prototype. Yeah, I

13:55

remember I remember Balmer saying we

13:57

definitely don't want our customers to have

13:59

access to iTunes. and we never want

14:01

to see the iPod in the Windows ecosystem

14:03

because we don't want those customers. Remember that?

14:06

Remember, it's funny because

14:08

we're turning into the member berries from South Park, but

14:11

it was quite the opposite, right? Microsoft was PO'd

14:13

that Apple kind of...

14:15

So, wow, we're old. Remember it was FireWire

14:17

and it was a big contention that it

14:20

wasn't compatible with Windows and it was a

14:22

huge market. It was a huge market and

14:24

like Steve Jobs had to be brought kicking

14:26

and screaming to make a Windows app. And

14:28

the Windows app was based on Rhapsody at

14:30

the time. Not Rhapsody, the

14:32

music client Rhapsody, the software stack.

14:35

God damn, we're old. Yes, they acquired

14:37

that. They acquired it. And

14:39

it was just like one of the worst Windows apps.

14:42

Apple came screaming and kicking to the

14:44

platform, which did not fight them at

14:47

all. Microsoft welcomed iTunes. They were like,

14:49

cool. And I would argue Microsoft made

14:51

improvements to the USB stack to

14:54

make iPods work better with Windows. Because of the

14:56

data transformer volume at the time. And

14:59

remember how they had to release a special

15:01

service pack to XP to enable USB 2 speeds?

15:03

Yep. So

15:06

this version of history is perverted

15:08

and wrong. This isn't how

15:10

it went down at all. And

15:12

I would say, if anything, Microsoft welcomed

15:14

iTunes with open arms and the iPod

15:16

users because it meant people would stop

15:18

bleeding to Macs to use their iPod.

15:23

So I don't know. It's funny how

15:25

it's just why that bothers me because

15:27

it makes me feel like internally they

15:29

think they're responsible for these companies' success.

15:32

Like they might actually believe that crap. It's

15:34

funny too because we

15:37

keep hearing in all these cases that

15:39

US antitrust law – we're

15:42

not lawyers, right? – requires you

15:45

show consumer harm. But

15:49

harm is defined as financial harm. Like costs go

15:51

up. Prices have to go up. If

15:54

anything, Apple has done an incredibly

15:56

aggressive and frankly

15:59

effective job. at commoditizing

16:01

its compliments, particularly software developers,

16:04

in just really grinding out

16:07

all the margin in iOS software. But

16:09

if you look at their competitor, their nearest

16:12

competitor, Android, same deal, then if you look

16:14

at, I would say, their second nearest competitor,

16:16

the web, same deal.

16:18

It's just really hard to charge for software

16:20

now. Yeah, and I think they're

16:22

conflating several things. Yeah.

16:25

They keep talking about – I mean, because really,

16:27

you could read this PDF as if Mike

16:29

and Chris hired a couple of lawyers to

16:31

write a document about every complaint and every

16:33

issue we've ever brought up on the show

16:35

in the history of the show. So

16:38

you and I have been front and center at every

16:40

single one of these debates, and the audience, we are

16:42

on record where we fall down on these things. And

16:45

so in a way, it's almost like an

16:47

emotional document. I can't

16:50

really describe it any other way because

16:52

facts don't always seem to apply. They

16:55

really go after Apple, and

16:57

it feels like this was intentional because it's one

17:00

that connects with every single normie and

17:02

every single media anchor I've seen covering this

17:04

this morning, and it's the green

17:06

bubble. Oh, for Pete's sake. In

17:09

fact, Merrick Garland said

17:11

this in his announcement when they did their

17:13

little live stream song and dance about the

17:15

suit. As any iPhone user who has ever

17:17

seen a green text message or

17:20

received a tiny, grainy video can

17:22

attest Apple's anti-competitive

17:24

or difficult for

17:26

iPhone users to message with users

17:29

of non-Apple products. It

17:32

does this by diminishing the functionality of

17:34

its own messaging, and issuing the functionality

17:36

of third-party messaging apps. By

17:40

doing so, Apple knowingly

17:42

and deliberately degrades quality,

17:44

privacy, and security for its

17:46

users. That audio stream wasn't great. They had a

17:48

few drops there, but you get what he's saying.

17:50

Well, he sent it over SMS, of course. Yeah.

17:54

He's blaming the technical limitations of

17:56

SMS on Apple. Now, could

17:59

Apple do more? to support RCS, yes,

18:01

and likely they will at some point.

18:04

Could they do more to open up iMessage, like they

18:06

could release an iMessage app for Android? Clearly. We've

18:09

read the emails on the show, which they'll

18:11

no doubt cite, that talk about

18:13

how Apple doesn't want to do that because any $25

18:15

Android device makes it easy to break out of the

18:18

ecosystem. Clearly. But

18:20

I would argue that it's their right to make

18:22

a good product. Nintendo chat

18:24

doesn't work with Xbox, and

18:26

I don't see Nintendo getting sued over it, and

18:29

vice versa. You see, it's completely

18:31

placing the blame that Apple is

18:33

degrading the picture quality and degrading

18:35

the chat experience when really

18:38

they're just implementing the SMS standard, which

18:40

isn't sufficient anymore. But

18:42

it gets twisted, and the way it gets

18:44

twisted, too, is that really lands with normies.

18:47

It lands with non-technical people and all the people in

18:49

the news that are writing stories about this. Or

18:51

let me just fry some

18:54

green bird bacon here. Maybe

18:57

Attorney General Garland was

19:00

an adium user. Oh,

19:02

I like this. And remembers the glory days

19:04

of one universal chat app

19:06

for all your services. You know,

19:09

but the way it really did that was by

19:11

just implementing all the proprietary and open ones in

19:13

the one app. You know, see, why do you

19:15

have to ruin everything with facts and logic? You

19:17

know, this document... Wait, wait, wait. This

19:19

document's not about logic, Chris. You already... This

19:21

is about feces. We're happy with feces. It is

19:23

funny because they also spend a little bit of

19:25

time calling Apple out on their,

19:27

quote, $77 billion in stock

19:29

buybacks in its 2023 fiscal year alone, which,

19:33

you know, I don't like stock buybacks, but I

19:35

just, like, why is that in there? I

19:38

guess their argument is, well, that could be spent on innovation instead.

19:40

It's weird. Like, they've made, like, every

19:43

possible case. Like, some of them are good,

19:45

right? Like I think the

19:47

strongest one in here is the, hey, they're

19:50

screwing Spotify because they're competing on a platform

19:52

they own and relieving themselves

19:54

of restrictions that they put on

19:56

others. Like, that's a strong argument.

20:00

I think they have a strong argument with

20:02

the cloud streaming game apps, too. Yeah, the

20:04

DOJ points out that How

20:06

Apple has blocked that and that if Apple allowed that it

20:08

would reduce hardware requirements and you know Apple wouldn't be able

20:10

to get away with selling a thousand dollar phone because you

20:13

could you know you could Do it on a $500 phone

20:15

and that's kind of true I mean,

20:17

I think that's in part also because Apple wants to have the

20:19

revenue cut and they make that point There's things in here that

20:21

are Absolutely true, but to

20:23

make it stick They're gonna have

20:26

to argue and They will

20:28

argue that the smartphone is a type of platform

20:30

that is new and so important that Apple can't

20:32

have these types of restrictions Okay, but iPhone doesn't

20:34

have 90% market share. No one's required

20:38

to use an iPhone and Again

20:42

going back to our you know, Robert

20:44

Bork They

20:48

have definitely not raised consumer prices in

20:50

terms of all these software products that

20:53

the DOJ is talking about in

20:55

fact as we've been ditching and

20:57

moaning about for 12

21:00

years ish They've ground

21:02

them into the ground, right? They've literally

21:05

pulverized what software developers can charge for

21:07

software into dust How much do you

21:09

want to bet they actually make that

21:11

argument essentially making our point in

21:13

court to defend themselves Tim Cook's gonna get up They're

21:15

big. No, man. I

21:17

beat the crap at them like the Alabama

21:20

defense of line They'll put a chart up

21:22

that shows prices of software before the iPhone

21:24

and the price of software after the iPhone

21:27

and it's just gonna be Down, you know

21:29

how they could use for clips from the show. Look

21:32

at these guys tech guys, you know, they've been on

21:34

the air forever Alright

21:36

the one seems like he might be a little

21:38

hammered but forget that and You

21:41

know look how much he hates us. Don't

21:43

listen to Swift episode. But look at how

21:45

much and it's true I mean, I

21:49

Remember like I start

21:51

off the answer $10 and that

21:53

and people were charging that it didn't

21:55

take too long for What

21:57

was it? 99 cents to become the norm? and

22:00

then zero. Yeah,

22:03

then it had to be free with some in-app purchases

22:05

if you can figure out a way. If you can

22:07

figure out some scummy ways, like I remember the big

22:09

original thing was dark mode. If

22:11

you don't wanna go blind with our

22:13

obnoxious color scheme that we've intentionally made

22:15

super bright so that you don't

22:17

like it, you can give

22:19

us a dollar a month. They

22:22

also claim that Apple is blocking super

22:24

apps. And here's how they define a

22:26

super app, and this seems a little off to me. They

22:29

write, a super app is an

22:31

app that can serve as a platform for

22:33

smaller mini programs developed using

22:35

programming language such as HTML5

22:38

and JavaScript. For

22:40

example, a super app that incorporates a

22:42

multitude of mini programs might allow users

22:44

to easily discover and access a wide

22:46

variety of contents and services without

22:48

setting up and logging into multiple apps. That's

22:51

not how that works. I would say Google is

22:53

a version of this. I log into Gmail and

22:55

then I can tab over to YouTube and

22:57

I'm logged into YouTube. And I can tab over

22:59

to Docs and I'm logged into Docs. And I

23:02

can watch content on YouTube, I can post content

23:04

on YouTube. It seems like that's also written in

23:06

JavaScript and HTML5. What am

23:08

I missing here? They come dangerously

23:10

close to a really good argument.

23:12

Right. And then because

23:15

they're government employees that don't work at

23:17

the no such agency, hey guys, loving

23:19

you, don't, don't. Apple's

23:21

gonna blow this apart. Apple's gonna, this

23:23

is like stupid. Yeah. So

23:26

I think the best argument here, if

23:28

you wanna do the HTML5, which I hate the

23:30

term because it's been HTML5 for how long? Just

23:32

call it Web App, PWAs. Or you know what,

23:35

just call it the web. Seriously,

23:37

like. Yeah, the web would be fine. I know

23:40

people, I post LinkedIn posts about PWAs

23:42

all the time. That's called clickbait for

23:44

potential customers. They're really just web

23:46

apps because that's what they've always been. There's

23:49

the meme with the astronaut shooting the other astronauts. It's

23:51

always been web apps. Apple

23:53

degrading JavaScript engine performance. And

23:55

I mean, we literally have

23:57

a contemporary example of this.

24:00

It's kind of brutal what they

24:02

did in response to the EU

24:04

trying to make them make web

24:06

apps and PWAs more viable. They

24:09

just completely nerfed it, right? And

24:12

yeah, they backed off a little bit, but not

24:15

enough. So if you really

24:17

want an open market of

24:20

software, which kind

24:22

of feels like what the DOJ is, I

24:24

mean putting the bubbles aside because I guess

24:27

people have anxiety about green bubbles, I have

24:29

never understood that. I still know I'm too

24:31

old, I guess. The open

24:33

market continues to be the web, and

24:36

the web has some problems, like getting people to

24:38

put a credit card into Jar

24:40

Jar binks.com is super hard. That's

24:45

why Stripe exists, right? That's why PayPal exists.

24:49

It's not unheard of to sell software

24:51

on the web, or in

24:53

fact, I was just listening to

24:55

an interview on your favorite site, The Verge

24:57

with Neelai Patel, the

24:59

Figma CEO who – I love

25:02

this guy. Adobe fails to

25:04

buy him because the government stops him and he

25:06

gets a payday. Why can't we get

25:08

a deal like this, Chris? Where someone

25:10

fails to buy us but

25:12

has to pay us anyway. Yeah, I forget what

25:15

they call that clause. It's a breakup clause. Yeah,

25:17

okay. Oh yeah.

25:19

I knew that in everything, dude. It's corporate alimony.

25:22

I don't know. I feel like in

25:24

this 80-page polemic,

25:27

the DOJ drafters went

25:30

too far. There are

25:32

so many easy, narrow arguments that you

25:34

can make that are indefensible.

25:38

All the stuff that Spotify talks about regarding

25:40

the difference in the App Store Cut and

25:43

the CarPlay integration and the

25:45

just capabilities of the Spotify app versus

25:47

Apple Music, right? The

25:49

fact that you are bound to Siri

25:51

who is borderline brain

25:53

dead compared to most smart

25:55

assistants now, or as we used

25:57

to call them, lady tubes. they

26:00

intentionally nerf web

26:03

technologies, which I

26:05

don't know, like if you haven't used Figma

26:07

or any like really modern web applications, they're

26:10

really good. I mean, they're borderline

26:13

desktop quality, if not beyond. I

26:16

basically run my business from my Slack

26:18

app, which is just a web

26:20

app wrapped in electron, right? In

26:23

fact, I don't need it to be on my dock.

26:26

I just prefer to have

26:28

the icon instead of a,

26:30

but I could easily run it in Edge

26:32

or Chrome or hell even Safari, right? But

26:35

not on mobile. On mobile, I have to

26:37

have the app because using it in the

26:39

web is just godawful, even

26:41

though it makes no sense. And

26:43

it's so obvious that it's a

26:46

strategy tax that they're imposing because

26:49

they don't want, you know,

26:51

top tier web software to compete

26:53

with native apps or not even, they don't even care

26:55

if you're native, right? But they want you to go

26:57

through the app store so they get their cut. Yeah.

27:00

I mean, this is why Ionic exists. The

27:02

thing is, that's not

27:04

what this suit is going to go after.

27:06

But that's the, don't you agree that that's

27:08

the easier shot? Oh, we all 100%. I'm

27:12

really surprised they missed the mark by this

27:14

much, because Apple will just be able to

27:16

technically demonstrate that they support HTML and JavaScript.

27:18

And then, then if they

27:20

want to, if the DOJ wants, they're going

27:22

to have to really get down into the

27:24

weeds and nuance the difference between browser implementations

27:27

of HTML5 standards and see if that actually

27:29

lands. We're going to start talking about WebKit

27:31

versus Karma. Yeah. You know

27:34

what the baller move for the Apple lawyer is going to be?

27:37

Without his iPhone, open the DOJ

27:39

website on his iPhone. Your website

27:41

or in HTML and JavaScript? Right.

27:43

Yeah. I mean, I think too,

27:46

they could point to their investment in

27:48

WebKit, how they forked it from KHTML,

27:50

how that's open source. They can play

27:52

up that in this as well to

27:55

show, to demonstrate their commitment to open standards. Well, and

27:57

that's true. I know we're going to get some hate,

27:59

but remember when... Steve Jobs decided that Adobe

28:01

was the enemy, and by the way, he

28:03

was totally correct. If

28:05

we were running Flash on these smart devices,

28:07

we would be years behind. They

28:10

invested hugely, even before that, but

28:12

particularly at that time, they invested

28:14

hugely in WebKit for mobile Safari.

28:17

And those investments were, to their credit,

28:19

made open source, right? Google got to

28:21

piggyback off them. Hell

28:24

everybody did. There's also digital

28:27

wallets in here. The Apple Watch, which I think

28:29

Apple's going to be able to argue both of

28:31

those for security and lock-in, er... Apple Watch is

28:33

a no-not-star. The lock-in there is... It's like, it's...

28:35

The lock-in is inherent to the product, I think,

28:37

on those. So they're going to have no problem

28:39

there. I feel like if you're buying something called

28:41

the Apple Watch, you kind of know what you're

28:43

getting. The CarPlay one is

28:45

interesting. So we get a little insight

28:47

into perhaps why automakers have been bailing

28:49

on CarPlay recently. This

28:52

is from the suit as well. Apple has

28:54

told automakers that the next generation of Apple

28:56

CarPlay will take over all the

28:58

screens, sensors and gauges in the car, forcing

29:00

the user experience driving as an iPhone-centric experience

29:02

if they want to use any of the

29:05

features provided by CarPlay. Here

29:07

too, Apple leverages its iPhone user base

29:09

to exert more power over its trading

29:11

partners, including American car makers,

29:13

in future innovation. I just had

29:15

a horrible image flash in my

29:17

head. I'm driving down

29:20

I-95 and I'm

29:23

looking at the fuel gauge and the speedometer and all

29:25

of a sudden an iCloud. You need to sign in

29:27

again with your iCloud back. Yeah,

29:31

really, right? Out of storage. So

29:34

first of all, this is technically true if

29:36

you want to use the, quote,

29:38

next generation CarPlay experience. However,

29:40

the classic CarPlay experience remains available.

29:43

You know, you're not forced to opt into this next

29:45

generation. And the idea of the next generation is that

29:48

Apple provides the entire experience. Honestly,

29:51

I would be interested in a car that did

29:53

offer that because CarPlay is

29:57

better than anything I have ever seen an

29:59

automaker produce. Even the top tier

30:01

automakers, it was responsible for the

30:03

purchase of the vehicle. Part of the decision of the

30:05

vehicle I made is that it supported CarPlay. The screen

30:08

was large enough and it

30:10

would play a factor in purchasing a future

30:12

car if it had the entire CarPlay integration.

30:15

I know that sounds odd to people, but I actually

30:17

trust Apple to develop that more than I trust

30:19

any car manufacturer to develop that. And I'm not

30:21

sure I want any of this stuff. But

30:23

if I was, if I was purchasing a car that had

30:25

that, that would probably play a factor. I don't think I'll

30:28

ever be buying a car that has that, but I

30:31

don't know. It's like, yeah, you do if

30:33

you want to, if you want to be all in

30:35

and have the iPhone control the entire experience. I'm not

30:37

sure what auto manufacturer would want that, but it's interesting

30:39

to see that that's even in the, it's like every

30:41

big company that's had a little bit of an issue

30:43

with Apple got their complaint into this thing. I

30:45

mean, GM's name's not on that, but it's

30:47

clearly that's from GM. Yeah. And

30:51

then also, you know, we're going

30:53

to have Apple go into full damage control mode now

30:56

because this is, this is rough on

30:58

the Apple brand. You know, Oh, no, no,

31:01

here's why I feel this way. I just

31:03

two weeks ago had a conversation with

31:06

an everyday tech user. Just,

31:08

you know, they don't really follow this stuff. And

31:10

they were, they were explaining to me like I didn't know

31:13

about how Apple intentionally degrades the battery

31:15

to force you to buy new ones

31:18

and, you know, completely oblivious to the fact

31:20

that lithium ion batteries just degrade over time

31:23

and that, you know, they have so many

31:25

charge cycles and he thinks it is, as

31:27

he said, he said the words built

31:30

in obsolescence. My mom thinks that too. I've

31:32

tried to explain it several times. Yeah. Yeah.

31:35

And also it just as a side,

31:38

so many normies think the phone is listening to

31:40

them all the time. Who knows? Come

31:42

on, maybe. Come on. I

31:45

can understand maybe once while you're running the app

31:47

for a few minutes, but if the iPhone or

31:49

an Android device, especially we're listening to you all

31:51

the time, the ramifications on your

31:53

battery would be so significant. The phone would

31:55

be hot all the time, but also, you

31:57

know, any Tom Dick network. if sniffer could

31:59

just put it on your Wi-Fi only and

32:01

just and they would be seeing that but

32:04

then also think about like The inbound data

32:06

transfer to these data centers of every phone

32:08

was streaming audio the massive requirements on their

32:10

end to process all of that I

32:12

think it's actually creepier than they're listening

32:15

The reality is these systems have actually

32:17

modeled this well enough that

32:19

they can start proactively figuring out what they need to

32:21

advertise To you it doesn't work all the time, but

32:24

when it does work, it's so creepy. You think they're

32:26

listening to you I heard a guy explaining I was

32:28

I was making food for my dog and I was

32:30

talking to my wife about how I want to Get

32:32

an apple core and I wanted to core

32:34

these apples so I could make this dog food faster And then

32:37

I got on my phone Yeah, I was

32:39

podcast and I got on my phone and I saw I

32:41

saw a thing about the apple cores Oh, it must be

32:43

listening to me. No, no, no They figured

32:45

out that you're a dog nut They figured out

32:47

that your fancy pants that spends money and they

32:49

figured out they can advertise these things to you

32:51

That's creepier and but normies are

32:53

walking around Thinking that their

32:55

phones listening to them and they're just fine

32:57

with it Like if you really thought it's

32:59

listening to you turn it off put in

33:01

a Faraday cage Like don't bring it with

33:03

you don't take it into your bedroom for

33:05

God's sakes If you think this thing's actually

33:08

listening to you then take action It's

33:10

ridiculous And so I think these stories about

33:12

the phone always listening about how it's

33:14

built in obsolescence with the batter Even though

33:17

it's just lithium-ion technology They

33:19

permanently stick and this is

33:21

going to stick to and the way that's really

33:23

registered with the normies is the blue versus green

33:25

thing I mean every news anchor I've seen cover

33:27

this this morning when they get to that point

33:29

in the document. Oh, yeah, that's true I do

33:31

hate that when I'm texting my dad. I sent

33:34

a picture of the new baby. It's just not

33:36

working Yeah, I wish they'd fix that This

33:38

stuff sticks and Apple's gonna have to fight this. I

33:41

wonder if they make a statement at WWDC Probably

33:44

not no, it's

33:46

usually not a good idea to talk about pending

33:49

or current litigation, right? I You

33:54

know that there's a level of irony here and

33:57

they probably could have avoided this whole thing

34:00

Oh, totally and really not lost

34:02

that much revenue, right? so

34:05

like I Don't

34:07

really care about the green bubble thing

34:10

But I understand because I deal with

34:12

young people now for a lot and

34:14

they could have led the way on RCS Yeah,

34:16

no, I think that's where they should actually hold the line

34:18

because that is lock-in and that's You

34:22

know what? SMS they are supporting an open step

34:24

Like I would yeah if I was them I'd

34:26

defend that first because I think it's the most

34:28

effective lock-in But look at the I think you

34:30

look at how this is actually gained traction I

34:32

mean would it really harm the I message lock-in

34:34

that much keep the bubbles green,

34:36

but you know support more advanced features

34:38

Yeah, but why do it right? Why

34:40

make life easier? Well now it's

34:42

in a lawsuit from the United States government That

34:44

might be one reason why? Really

34:47

about it's gonna stay without all the bad

34:49

will from developers right without the DHH bitching

34:52

and moaning all the time without Microsoft

34:55

which I We will not

34:57

know this for years, but I would bet my little hat

35:00

that Microsoft lobbyists have been out there

35:03

Trying to get Apple to you know because of

35:05

this cloud streaming stuff Like

35:07

there were so many off ramps where they

35:09

could have just right Captain

35:11

even recently they shouldn't have done this

35:13

this Ridiculous petulant PWA

35:15

poll for a bit in the

35:17

EU Right, that's just

35:20

making the case their their battle

35:22

with Tim Sweeney They could they could have played

35:24

that a little bit better Tried to

35:26

come to a different resolution because you know, that's

35:28

that is exactly One

35:30

of the pillars that is informing this case. Well, we

35:32

were off for the week, right? we were a pre-record,

35:35

but there was this whole weird thing where

35:37

last week they banned

35:39

the epic Europe account that

35:42

they told they promised epic they could make

35:45

and then Tim Sweeney was like

35:47

what the hell you told us we could do

35:49

this and they sent like a

35:51

nasty letter like a It's kind of it's the

35:53

kind of letter you read in like old British

35:55

novels We're like the father since the boy at

35:58

boarding school like a chiding letter like you you

36:00

blah blah blah, you're disrespectful. And if you think

36:02

I'm exaggerating, I urge you to Google it and

36:04

read what Apple sent them because it's, it

36:07

boils down to you said mean things about

36:09

us on Twitter and we're upset. So,

36:12

you know, like

36:14

do you need to? I feel

36:16

like there's, the companies are people, right?

36:20

And they have cultures and I don't like the

36:22

whole like, you know, Adam Newman, oh, the culture,

36:24

the spirit, but I feel like

36:26

Apple is a little bitchy.

36:29

Like it reminds me of when I was in

36:32

college, the art students, like they're, they're all

36:34

right, but they get real upset

36:36

real fast. Like, I don't know. Yeah,

36:38

yeah. Still got a fire in their belly up

36:40

at this kind of stuff. I mean, their response

36:42

was pretty strong. It was short. It was concise.

36:44

Oh, they said that they're going

36:46

to take this of the mattresses to use in New

36:48

Jersey. Right? They're there. Yeah, they're not going to negotiate

36:50

at all. Well, can you think of a company in

36:53

tech that has a better legal team? I mean, I

36:55

think Apple's maybe had the best legal team in tech

36:57

for 15 years, maybe 20 years. So

36:59

I have a dream, a battle royale that I

37:01

would like to see happen one day, Apple's

37:04

legal team versus Disney's. And

37:07

you can ask good old Ron DeSantis how

37:09

that went for him. I wonder that

37:12

would be a good, that would be

37:14

the ultimate. That would be you're right.

37:16

I'd tune in for that. Craig Federicki's

37:18

untamed wild, final chest hair versus the

37:20

dark Lords of the Sith that are

37:23

Disney's lawyers. I mean, no disrespect

37:27

to the DOJ, but you guys are going to

37:29

get ripped apart. Can

37:31

I bring up the

37:33

orange elephant in the room here? This

37:36

is happening during the election year.

37:38

Which makes it dumber. That's awkward.

37:40

Yeah, it makes it, well, it makes it political.

37:42

It makes it, or at least it makes it

37:44

liable to get political. Trump hates Tim Apple, so.

37:48

Well, they got along when he was in office. Apple's

37:51

always been really good about playing to the

37:53

current administration. Remember he went to that Arizona

37:55

opening with Trump and that, you remember

37:57

that time he called him Tim Apple, that was great. I

38:00

really thought it was his name too, that's the worst part. Yeah, I

38:02

know. And then, you know, they've

38:05

tried to be really tight with the Biden

38:07

administration, but this hasn't gone very well for

38:09

them. But you have to

38:11

wonder if this will have any kind

38:13

of success with

38:15

a Trump administration should he win in

38:17

November, because the gal

38:20

that is running this is, I

38:22

think, appointed by the president would

38:24

likely be replaced if

38:26

Trump comes into office. And I wonder if that would

38:28

shift at all. It's hard to say, but it

38:31

either this thing either because of that wraps up

38:34

in the next 14 months, or

38:37

it goes on and on and on. And

38:40

I think it's a it's a lock if Biden

38:42

is reelected. I think it's just I think

38:44

it just by default will continue to roll and it's gonna be

38:46

a multi year fight. So let me

38:48

fry some Arizona apple factory bacon here.

38:52

So the best thing that could happen regarding

38:54

this lawsuit, one, they're gonna win anyway, but

38:56

for Apple is Trump wins. All

38:58

they have to do is take their bar tab,

39:00

open another factory in Texas or Arizona, let

39:03

Trump do a photo off and he'll

39:05

be like, great. And he'll order the

39:07

whatever her name is to drop the

39:09

case or probably fire her

39:12

actually because of her political. Yeah, they'd fire.

39:14

Yeah, I just I just wonder it is

39:17

when we talked about this last time, I'd

39:19

asked the question, do they wait? Does the

39:22

DOJ wait for the election to be over and

39:24

then drop this thing? Clearly, the answer

39:26

is they have to go hard. And Apple,

39:28

if I was Apple, I would stall and

39:30

saw and saw and just

39:32

see what happens. I

39:34

think that's probably what I mean, that's probably the

39:37

play. And you

39:39

know, the irony of all this, I just

39:41

think is this, they finally

39:43

pull the trigger when Apple

39:45

has had the most market punishment

39:48

that we've seen in the run of the show. For

39:50

the last year, Apple has been slowly but

39:52

surely getting grinded down to buy the market

39:54

now at very low levels in the market,

39:56

but also sales are dropping.

40:00

expensive. There's just

40:02

a lot of things up in the air. Then

40:04

you combine the other big tech companies are slobbering

40:06

all over AI to integrate it into their projects

40:08

and into their products as fast as possible and

40:10

Apple has yet to announce their AI

40:12

play. So the quote-unquote market again is

40:14

punishing them for that. They're kind of

40:16

on the ropes in some ways. Not

40:19

like any major way like they were

40:21

a decade ago. On the ropes? Insofar

40:24

as the chatter right now is maybe

40:26

Apple's lost its luster, maybe

40:29

they're no longer part of the magnificent

40:31

7. Maybe they can't innovate anymore. There

40:33

doesn't seem to be

40:35

a big impact from the Apple Vision Pro. The

40:38

narrative around Apple is at an all-time low is what

40:40

I'm trying to say. I'm not saying Apple is doing

40:42

bad. I mean they're not making as much money as

40:44

they were. They're still making plenty of

40:46

money. I'm saying the narrative around Apple outside

40:48

of brand but just their narrative around their

40:50

ability to innovate, their ability to actually sell

40:52

something in the market right now that's feeling

40:54

price pressure. The situation in

40:56

China which has impacted them greatly, all

40:59

of these things are bad

41:01

headwinds already. Then you

41:04

have this DOJ case come in. It's

41:06

another headwind. I mean this is just

41:08

a sh**ty situation for Apple right now. That's

41:10

mostly they're doing though. They can't blame the

41:13

DOJ. I agree.

41:15

This is all they're doing. Do

41:18

you know what would be a, I mean

41:21

I know this is my hobby horse, but

41:23

would it be like a renaissance for Apple

41:25

and Apple users and Apple developers? Unleash

41:27

the iPad. That is

41:29

some beautiful powerful hardware that is

41:32

shackled down by stupid strategy taxes.

41:34

Yeah, unleash the iOS platform in

41:36

general. I mean what if that is

41:39

the positive outcome here? Is that the iOS platform is

41:41

forced to be opened up a bit? Well how about

41:43

you, I mean I think it's easier on

41:45

the iPad at this point because it's more, I mean

41:47

it is a consumer product but there's a lot

41:49

of enterprise use. Make it

41:52

so developers can build really

41:54

large software packages and not have

41:56

to be the adobes or microsauce

41:58

of the world. to get

42:00

money. I don't know, make

42:02

it like the Mac used to be, right? When it

42:04

kind of still is. I mean

42:07

we've done the comparison of when

42:09

I buy a Mac all the software I

42:11

buy when you get one of your Linux

42:13

machines, you get the equivalence for effectively free

42:16

or if not actually free, right? Yes. People

42:18

will spend money for good software but you

42:21

have to not make the norm free. I really

42:24

think it's like Apple's created this – I

42:27

understand why they did it but they devalued –

42:30

they forgot. Why did people buy an Apple

42:32

too? Well, because

42:35

it ran

42:37

Apple right and Apple paint. You

42:40

could load these big old floppy disks in

42:42

there and run the program you want. Yes,

42:44

people don't buy the machine for the machine.

42:46

Nerds might, right? We might because it's like

42:48

cool. Remember the – what is it, the

42:50

UWA? So now you're making the DOJ's case.

42:52

Smartphones are a special platform. Apple

42:54

is making the case. These are essentially consoles. No,

42:56

they're not special though. I have a PS5 sitting

42:59

next to me. I didn't buy it because I

43:01

want to stare at a white Sony totem. I

43:03

bought it because I want to play the games.

43:06

But that's a similar type of lock-in. You

43:08

can't just – you as a developer can't go

43:11

create something that just runs on the PlayStation 5.

43:14

I can't but when I

43:16

do, Sony doesn't stop me from charging for

43:18

it. I see what you're saying. Your problem

43:20

really is that in order for Apple to

43:22

make the App Store like this attractive thing

43:24

where people can pop apps like they pop

43:26

pills, they had to drive the prices down

43:28

to zero. So now there's not really a

43:30

path for a shop like yours to make

43:32

money by just publishing an app. You've got

43:34

to incorporate a service or do a business

43:36

play, et cetera. All right. Well, didn't we

43:38

just see – and I'm going to apologize

43:40

to the guys at Black Pixel if I'm

43:42

wrong. But didn't we just see one

43:44

of the old great indie Mac studios, Black Pixel, go

43:47

down a couple of years ago? I mean, we've seen

43:49

so many go down over the years. We've seen so

43:51

many go down and these are like venerable

43:54

independent developers who

43:57

– by the way, kids, if you ever listen to the back

44:00

– at me doing a eulogy for

44:02

everyone that goes down. You've

44:05

got a lot to catch up on. It's

44:07

all Apple's doing. I

44:10

remember Panic, right? Remember when Panic tried to port all their stuff over?

44:15

Very old, respected Mac software company. Now they make the... Yeah,

44:20

the game machine. They also make Transmit still, I

44:22

think, and a couple other Mac apps. They

44:25

couldn't justify it. It takes time.

44:27

It takes money. You

44:30

have to pay designers even if you're the developer

44:32

yourself. One, your time isn't free because you have

44:34

to feed yourself. I

44:37

just don't understand how Apple doesn't

44:39

see – and maybe this won't help them with

44:41

the DOJ. But the

44:44

market's not healthy, right?

44:47

And under what the standard is for

44:49

antitrust, certainly prices have

44:51

not raised for consumers. Yeah, they could probably make

44:53

that case if they're willing to admit that they

44:55

have driven the price of software down to nearly

44:58

zero. They'll just have to be willing

45:00

to make that case on there. They're

45:03

like, we've bankrupted all

45:05

these people. Yeah. I mean, they

45:07

might. They might. And then, of course, they

45:10

have their 30% cut. This is going to be something we'll just have to keep our

45:12

eye on. I don't know how we'll cover it in the show. Maybe

45:15

we'll just sort of watch for the highlights. It's not going to be

45:17

a week-to-week thing. I would think there's going to be... We

45:21

will have to have an orange Apple special, should

45:23

he win. You know what I'm

45:26

also going to keep an eye out for is the

45:28

really juicy discovery stuff. I'm hoping we get

45:30

some of that. Who knows? I

45:33

remember depositions of Bill Gates, video

45:35

depositions of Bill Gates. That was

45:37

particularly spicy during the Microsoft time. You know

45:39

what I want? I want all of Tim

45:42

Sweeney's texts and emails to all the Apple

45:44

execs. I'm pretty sure some of them are

45:46

not safe for work. 50,000

46:01

sap. Thank

46:05

you hybrid I don't see a message there but I want to

46:07

give you a shout out for that. Appreciate it. Now

46:10

that was from the podcast index. Now the

46:12

next one I'm gonna say it's mr.

46:16

Senni U Tech

46:18

666 who's also

46:20

a baller booster

46:22

with 50,000 sap.

46:24

Are they right? I know the season

46:26

is slow and I wanted to show my hubby's favorite

46:28

podcast some love. He's a longtime follower

46:30

and a wonderful husband going into the army.

46:33

We couldn't be more proud. We'll

46:35

listen and boost while he's away. Thanks

46:37

guys. Oh that's amazing. Thank you and

46:39

be safe to the hubby. That's a

46:42

tough time to be

46:44

on. I would love

46:47

to know his name and

46:49

also how does he listen? I

46:51

mean does he have like internet on his

46:53

iPhone? Can he enter the phone? How does

46:55

that work? Do you get like general

46:57

internet access where you're deployed? Yeah they

46:59

have access on base. Yeah I know

47:01

but you get access to everything like they just

47:04

let you listen to this thing. Could you imagine?

47:06

Uncle Elon has hooked us up. Oh

47:08

man we're star links. You know what okay you know

47:10

what else is great it's like we're on the inside

47:13

you know what I mean? Of the army? Well

47:16

yeah we got a guy on the inside now. I

47:19

don't know what that means. I know well

47:21

we probably do. We should get they should be giving a shout

47:23

out because you know maybe we could just

47:25

slowly but surely work together make

47:27

things a little better for everybody. I

47:30

want a guy I want a guy in

47:32

the Federal Reserve. There you go. Oh yeah

47:34

Federal Reserve. That'd be good. Secret Service would

47:36

be kind of interesting. Oh

47:39

there. I'm sure. Yeah you

47:42

know Chris if you and I just

47:45

the octopus murders and I'll end the conspiracy

47:47

theory there. You have to you

47:49

have to watch it on Netflix. Okay.

47:51

All right but God bless the hubby be

47:53

safe. It's yes it's wild out there.

47:56

Yes we really appreciate that. I should mention you

47:58

know you know I should say tomorrow. my wife, you

48:00

know, his wife was

48:02

in his favorite podcast. I mean, I'm just saying, honey,

48:04

just saying. That's really sweet though, we really

48:06

appreciate it. Ty Alaskan Ben comes in with

48:08

31,337 sets. Boop,

48:11

boop, boop. I'm a software engineer

48:14

and while I love listening to all the

48:16

other JB shows, I normally just don't have

48:18

time or the energy to tinker in

48:20

my free time. I guess I feel most

48:22

at home with the salty vibe here. Oh, okay,

48:25

well that's the bacon. He says,

48:27

that said, I've slowly been finding places in my

48:29

day job where stuff that JB has mentioned

48:31

is fitting and solving problems. I

48:34

think it's like Zology or something. It's

48:36

like a Teamux teammate replacement or a

48:38

screen replacement. Oh yeah, yeah, okay. LunarVim

48:40

has been really great for remote development,

48:42

they write, and I'm planning to pitch

48:45

packaging one of our projects with Nyx

48:47

to the rest of the team. Keep

48:49

up the great work. Nice, checking

48:52

them off there. Really appreciate that, Ty Alaskan

48:54

Ben. Nice, thank you, yeah. Oh,

48:56

here we go. Let's hope that we hear from them. Tampa

48:59

Tech Trekkie boosts in with 30,500 sats. Life,

49:03

you tiny little life. It

49:09

says, I hope this gets you guys over the 200K this week.

49:13

Thank you for that value, Tampa Tech Trekkie, we really

49:15

appreciate it. Lego Feet writes in with

49:17

22,345 sats. And

49:22

they write, it's another spicy take, I love it.

49:24

I mean, it's no presidential assassination plot like we've

49:26

heard before, but keep them coming. Wait, what? And

49:31

he says, I'll be captain obvious now, the sentiment

49:33

behind words will never hurt me is bang

49:35

on. But every now and then,

49:37

Chris talks about stacking some Ws, that's

49:40

clearly a mental health call out to the community. I'm

49:42

on board with your idea, but

49:44

there's a middle ground somewhere. The end

49:47

game isn't needing pre-approval for all communication.

49:49

It stops earlier than that. The value

49:52

of quote, don't be a dick is core to that.

49:54

The censoring is just an over-correction for

49:56

people that cannot be a dick. And

49:59

then he said, second second boosting boosting to raise

50:01

the sats for this episode. Yeah, that's

50:03

fair. That's all I think that makes

50:05

sense right like it It's I

50:08

mean, I don't Chris I do

50:11

you think there are listeners are that much younger

50:13

than us collectively? I mean, I think

50:15

on average probably in our range, but I know we

50:17

have folks on on each end I met a couple

50:19

of retired individuals at scale and of course I met

50:21

a couple of kids So they're on both ends So

50:23

I remember going to conferences in like New York and

50:26

the in the quote they didn't call it a code

50:28

of conduct And but they said roll number one and

50:30

last rule don't be a jerk. Don't be a dick

50:32

something like that Yeah,

50:35

right. I mean it's just

50:37

like your mama taught you you just gotta be like

50:39

nice gotta be polite Thank

50:41

you Lego feet. Great point Appreciate

50:44

you torped came in with a row of mick

50:46

ducks. He's that looking up for all my duck

50:49

and they write I've been compiling some code from

50:51

my arm 64 phone recently and I

50:53

had a bit of fun with looking into compiler flags

50:56

To either of you have any fun

50:58

compiler stories a compiler story.

51:01

I have a compiler adjacent story Oh,

51:03

I used to play around with Gen

51:05

2 And one

51:07

of the things that was fun with Gen 2

51:10

is there was this wiki in this community around

51:12

Figuring out the compiler flags you could use for

51:14

your particular CPU and you know what

51:16

you were gonna use the machine for and I Mean

51:19

at least back in the day. It

51:22

did seem like it made slight improvements

51:25

You know, I don't really recall After

51:27

like stopping that to noticing any differences computers

51:29

got faster I get there that period of

51:31

time seemed to just go away and

51:34

so I stopped bothering but to me it always

51:37

was so incredibly Just

51:40

strange that you

51:42

could build a program and it wouldn't be just absolutely

51:45

Perfectly optimized for that particular machine you're running

51:47

on for that architecture I didn't understand that

51:49

at first and thought that you know, it

51:51

just would inherently work that way So

51:54

the fun learning experience. Yeah, I

51:56

think I don't have a specific one

51:58

that pops into into mind easily.

52:01

But I do remember quite a bit of pain back

52:04

in my early days of

52:06

realizing that C++ compilers

52:08

were different, especially if they were in

52:11

Visual Studio. So that was

52:13

fun. Yeah,

52:16

good time. Thank you, Torp. Appreciate that. Trey

52:19

Fordham comes in with a row of ducks. I

52:21

wanted to boost Coda because I feel like it

52:24

doesn't get as much love as the other shows,

52:26

but I love Mike's take on business news. This

52:28

is also a boost in appreciation of the Vision

52:30

Pro cliffhanger from a few episodes back. Oh,

52:34

yeah. Yeah, man, I really thought you'd end

52:36

up with that thing. No. I mean,

52:39

first of all, when Apple can't sell me

52:41

something, something's gone horribly

52:44

wrong. I can

52:46

feel myself waiting

52:48

for WWDC, waiting for

52:50

them to announce multi-monitor

52:52

mode and a couple of

52:55

other killer apps and then me going, hmm, maybe, because I

52:57

think this is a two, three year device. I don't think

52:59

they're going to have an update next year. So

53:01

if they updated and improved the software quite a

53:03

bit, maybe I'd consider it. I think the

53:06

key question that I came up

53:08

with that remains is if you could do some of your

53:10

work on an iPad, then you could do your

53:12

work on a Vision Pro perhaps with more screens. That

53:15

limits it. I feel like they're

53:17

going to put a big effort into AI, right? Oh,

53:19

yeah. Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah.

53:21

They're probably filming it right now.

53:23

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I

53:26

think so. All right. Moving right along.

53:29

Thank you very much for the boost, Trey. We

53:31

really do appreciate that. And we had a boost

53:33

also come in. I think this might be our

53:35

last one. Nope, not quite. From

53:37

VeniMax. We got some great support. VeniMax

53:40

came in with 4200 sats. I appreciated

53:42

Mike outlining the billing models for small

53:44

software shops. If you're considering ideas

53:46

for new segments, oh, this is

53:48

a new. People should boost in ideas for segments. Yeah,

53:50

that's great. I'd like to

53:52

hear more about the prominent venture capitalists and their history

53:55

in relation to the tech industry. Most of the major

53:57

plays the VC folks you've mentioned were before

53:59

my. You know, that

54:01

is an interesting story right now.

54:04

And the VC world

54:06

is still alive in tech, but

54:09

the amounts, if it's not an AI program

54:11

or some sort of AI, JSON

54:13

as they call it, yeah, way down. Way

54:16

down. Way down. I mean, this might

54:18

be the right time to do it because this is a fallow period,

54:20

right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

54:24

Shout out to DJ at PTC for

54:26

boosting 5000 sets and No Message. And

54:28

Southern Fried Sassafras came in with Road

54:30

Ducks. I heartily

54:32

support the boost becoming a means to recommend

54:34

sci-fi books. That's a great idea. So

54:37

you can blame Jar Jar for that. In that

54:39

vein, I think it all would like the almost

54:41

human. 2013-2014 era,

54:43

sadly only one season. It

54:46

follows Carl Urban who

54:48

plays detective forced to work with a human looking

54:51

like an Android or an Android looks like a human. It

54:54

even features Bitcoin as the currency used in the future

54:56

society. Oh, well, you got me right there. It's

55:00

great. Thank you, Southern Fried. Please

55:03

do. I just finished Westworld with

55:05

The Wife and she wants

55:07

me to watch some cutesy

55:10

Apple TV series show in the meantime.

55:12

I need help. Give me

55:14

another deep, rich sci-fi

55:16

or sci-fi adjacent show. Preferably

55:19

not fantasy, but man, if it's good enough, I

55:21

might consider it. Thank you, Southern Fried. Appreciate

55:24

it. Noob Steve came in with Spaceballs Boost,

55:26

12,345 sets. So

55:29

the combination is one,

55:31

two, three, four, five. That's

55:35

the stupidest combination I ever heard in my life. He

55:37

says thanks for a recent shout out we gave him. He

55:40

says I don't know if he got any exposure for it or he

55:42

clicks for it, but exposure he appreciates. And he wants to know if

55:44

we've seen this. He writes,

55:46

I feel like everything is going in

55:48

the freelance direction right now. They have

55:51

freelance programs for taxis, delivery drivers, drone

55:53

pilots, etc. and now coding. As

55:55

a drone pilot, I know it's a race

55:58

to the bottom pay-wise. Great for closing. Quick

56:00

jobs, but there's no benefits. I

56:02

thought about seeing if I could get some basic stuff

56:04

for extra cash to spend on boosts. Lowell, and

56:07

he links us to

56:09

dataannotation.tech slash

56:12

coders, where they

56:14

basically have quick coder jobs. Boom,

56:17

boom. How to get started in

56:19

four quick steps. One, create an account. Two,

56:22

take the starter assessment. Three, complete

56:24

engaging tasks. And four, get paid

56:26

weekly. Yeah,

56:29

what do you think about this? Everything is kind of

56:31

going to you becoming an LLC. There

56:34

is some truth to that. I think

56:36

we're going back to the days of 1770, whatever,

56:40

right, it's gonna be you're working

56:42

out of your house, kind of, and you're,

56:44

yeah, you're an LLC. I mean, they were

56:46

just sole proprietorships effectively back then, but yeah,

56:48

you're an LLC. Noob,

56:50

Steve, we're kind of the worst people to ask about.

56:53

Yeah, that is true. We've been living that life for

56:55

a long time. Yeah,

56:58

I think there's gonna be big firms that have

57:00

a lot of employees, a lot of infrastructure, and

57:03

there's gonna be maybe, I

57:06

worry that the hardest place to be is the middle.

57:10

Because you have the overhead of the big

57:12

firms, but not

57:14

the, all right, so one

57:17

of the other boosters said they like the business stuff. I

57:20

have been trying to hire a business

57:22

development rep because I'm exhausted, and

57:26

frankly, their base salary is less than developers. What

57:28

a great idea. But the

57:31

pay expectations, forgetting

57:33

about commission, right, I love commission, I think

57:36

it's, I used to sell suits on commission,

57:38

I'm a big fan of it. And

57:40

I, first of all, for me, a red

57:42

flag, anybody who says they're a sales guy and doesn't want commission,

57:45

I think commission only, right,

57:47

but doesn't care about the commission, that's a problem. But

57:50

I looked at

57:52

my remaining small competitors here, and I've looked at

57:55

some of the bigger guys. Some

57:57

of them are paying as little as like 40,000. $1,000

58:00

base but with a

58:02

more generous commission. But

58:05

I noticed those jobs seem to be open. And

58:08

I wonder how well they're

58:10

doing where others like I

58:13

can't name names because it's a former client, but

58:15

I know for a fact that

58:17

they paid their sales guys 150

58:19

base and a commission.

58:22

The commission was structured in a weird way that

58:25

like they could get screwed. But

58:28

150 base as

58:30

a biz dev guy for

58:33

I mean, I've

58:36

been like, this is so

58:38

terrible, I shouldn't admit this, but I've been

58:40

listening to like these sales podcasts and all

58:43

these things trying to understand because I've done this

58:45

a number of times and I can't, you know, some of them

58:47

were good. I'm not saying they were bad, but like they were

58:49

a sales guy

58:51

really should be

58:54

the easiest thing for you to hire because he

58:56

or she should be paying for themselves within 90 days. Yeah,

58:59

it's one of the few times you hire somebody

59:02

that basically pays for themselves. You can effectively if

59:04

you have the cash flow, you can effectively hire

59:06

them at a deficit. Right? In

59:08

fact, one of my one of my best clients, he was laughing

59:10

at me on the phone about a month ago. He

59:13

said, you just need a sales guy, man. He's like, this is

59:15

a great idea. Why can't you like,

59:17

you know, get more? It's

59:19

just bandwidth for me. I mean, I have

59:21

like today, I was up all night doing

59:23

I have some feelings about

59:26

Cloudflare we could talk about later. Then

59:30

I had to do a sales meeting first thing

59:32

in the morning, then I was working on another

59:34

project for the same customer. Then

59:36

I got an email from another client. It's just you

59:38

can't do both at the it's

59:41

just too much. The context switching and

59:43

it's two very different jobs. So

59:46

it's a complete context switch every

59:48

time. And this sounds horrible, but

59:50

I like track my metrics and stuff on the sales

59:52

side. I basically cannot close

59:54

the sale if I pull an all nighter. Maybe

59:57

I get maybe I don't sound right.

1:00:00

or whatever. Yeah, for me it's

1:00:02

hard when I'm traveling or if I'm recording doubles, it's

1:00:04

like when do I have time to do the sales

1:00:06

job? Yeah, I feel you. I

1:00:09

need to consider doing the same. I really should. Well,

1:00:12

it's an interesting thing. I just totally

1:00:15

lost how I got here because I'm tired,

1:00:17

but... Yeah. Well, it

1:00:19

was the hiring independent workers. Yeah, the independent

1:00:21

workers, yeah. Yeah, it's... It's a rough biz

1:00:23

out there and you get stuck in the

1:00:26

middle and you're just really getting squeezed. Now,

1:00:28

I mean a thing I used to do a lot

1:00:30

that I'm not doing, this is kind of to a

1:00:33

new steep point, is I used to do a lot

1:00:35

of subcontracting for other companies. Sure. And

1:00:38

I had a lot of employees at the time. The

1:00:40

problem with that is like

1:00:43

their whole business model

1:00:45

is basically margin. Yeah. When

1:00:48

you're responsible for the deliverable and

1:00:51

they're dealing with the customer, it's their

1:00:53

incentive to keep the customer happy and to

1:00:55

maximize what they're getting out of you. Of

1:00:59

course, but that leads in software where it does

1:01:01

have to be an iterative, creative process. That

1:01:04

leads to some pretty unsustainable outcomes

1:01:06

where I mean

1:01:08

I don't – one of my pride

1:01:10

things is like I have never had a super

1:01:14

bad problem with a customer really. I

1:01:16

tend to just like, okay, you're not happy, I'll fix it,

1:01:19

but you get screwed. And

1:01:22

in a subcontracting situation, they own that end

1:01:24

relationship. So it's not like you're investing in

1:01:26

goodwill to get the next order a month

1:01:28

later or whatever. You're just – they'll be

1:01:31

like, okay, and you know what? Yeah, like

1:01:33

the incentives are totally mismatched, right? It's

1:01:36

just – I don't know. I

1:01:40

didn't want to talk about this yet, Chris, but this

1:01:42

is something I think we're going to be on the

1:01:45

business side going into because I'm pretty – I

1:01:47

need someone dedicated to doing the BD stuff

1:01:49

because it's – That'd be interesting to follow.

1:01:52

Yeah, I think that's a good insight. And

1:01:55

also a good insight by Noob Steve, thank you for

1:01:57

that boost. HealthCareAnon comes in with $3,400. I'm

1:02:00

wondering how I should approach practices at the company. Our text

1:02:02

act is woefully out of date. I currently administer a Windows

1:02:04

2008 box, a RHEL 5 box, and an OpenBSD 5.4. Oh

1:02:12

my goodness. Sorry,

1:02:14

I just found this. What?

1:02:17

Ooh, I've tried to get on the same page as my manager,

1:02:19

and when we get these things updated due to critical software

1:02:21

that's been running on there from the 90s, it's been

1:02:23

a little bit different. I'm

1:02:25

not sure. When we get these things updated due to critical

1:02:27

software that's been running on there from the 90s, it is

1:02:30

a massive plan. It's been measured

1:02:32

in two to three years, if not a decade, for

1:02:34

the process. I've mixed feelings

1:02:37

around the situation as I feel I should

1:02:39

silently work on my given role of managing

1:02:41

users and not step on toes. Yet

1:02:43

the security risks are worrying, and I feel like

1:02:45

I'm squandering my time on systems that were released

1:02:48

when I was in elementary school. Any

1:02:50

guidance would be appreciated. Well,

1:02:52

one, the fact that you were in elementary school in 2008

1:02:54

is very depressing for me. Moving

1:02:57

right along. I do follow

1:02:59

this sensation of, man, I'm

1:03:02

spending all my time working on last decade's tech

1:03:05

instead of working at a job that's teaching me

1:03:07

the current stuff that could build a resume. Yeah,

1:03:09

but is Windows Server 2008 even getting security updates?

1:03:11

I mean, I think really you're

1:03:13

still learning good practices, and it's really about your

1:03:16

ability to learn and adapt, document, work

1:03:19

in a team. Those things don't

1:03:21

really depend on which particular technology you're working on.

1:03:23

No, no, I'm not worried about him. I'm just

1:03:25

like, I thought that was end

1:03:27

of life. Yeah, well, it's bad. Well, so is Rail 5.

1:03:30

I mean, that is genuinely

1:03:32

– I feel their

1:03:34

concern there because this is also

1:03:37

a healthcare system, right? So

1:03:39

we're talking patient records here and stuff like that. Yeah,

1:03:42

so practical advice other than me being horrified,

1:03:44

which I really shouldn't be. I've seen enough

1:03:47

access businesses at this point. Yeah, this isn't

1:03:49

too shocking, but it's in the kind of

1:03:51

gross category. It's weird that they somehow got

1:03:53

away with HIPAA compliance. I have a feeling

1:03:55

they have some weird intranet stuff or some

1:03:57

hardcore like tunneling or VPNs going. I

1:04:00

don't know right back if you want to tell us So

1:04:04

you are right to be concerned, but

1:04:06

remember you're their junior guy So

1:04:09

you gotta I would say

1:04:11

speak softly and try to learn what you can

1:04:14

But if you do see something really scary

1:04:16

just gently met met, you know message it

1:04:18

to your managers, right? Yeah, you can always

1:04:20

keep notes as well to yourself. So something

1:04:22

can happen in the future You've got documentation

1:04:24

on the other hand, you know in the

1:04:26

future as you evolve in your career Having

1:04:29

this rather nutty

1:04:31

experience is gonna be a big

1:04:33

asset to you Yeah, and if you ever if

1:04:35

you ever do a podcast you'll have great stories. You'll

1:04:38

have incredible stories Yeah,

1:04:41

Yukon Cornelius comes in with 9000. That's

1:04:43

fun will now commence Mike Can you

1:04:45

give me advice for someone who's looking

1:04:47

to transition from a mid-level dev to

1:04:49

a team lead role? That's

1:04:52

a big question never thought

1:04:54

about that. Um I'm trying

1:04:57

to think of things I did wrong Okay.

1:05:00

Yeah, so process is boring and annoying but

1:05:02

you need it You know That's a good

1:05:04

point because giving other leadership to recognize your

1:05:06

leadership capabilities is gonna be in

1:05:08

in how you do process

1:05:10

it For have if you have an opinion informing

1:05:12

process building things like that that set examples You

1:05:15

know you need to have traits that other leadership

1:05:17

would recognize this one I think is I'm a

1:05:19

little less confident in but I feel like this

1:05:21

is a character flow on me and how I

1:05:23

handle issues at work If

1:05:26

you're managing the team You

1:05:28

probably should try to take a step back

1:05:30

and not always save the day when

1:05:32

they have an issue It's more

1:05:34

about allocating, you know the team right allocating

1:05:36

It's like playing a Final Fantasy if you

1:05:38

I don't know if you're familiar with Final

1:05:41

Fantasy tactics or that new Marvel Forbidden

1:05:43

Sons or whatever it was Game

1:05:46

where you're you're managing the different combatants

1:05:48

the different players than just

1:05:50

doing everything yourself Because it it

1:05:53

doesn't scale and it

1:05:55

causes a ton of trouble. That's

1:05:57

a good that's a great journey to be on though Yeah,

1:06:00

God bless. I think if anybody else out there

1:06:02

has tips, do boost those in and we'll

1:06:04

cover those because I think there's got to be a lot of people

1:06:06

thinking about that. It's

1:06:08

a good North Star as well. Thank

1:06:11

you for that. Thank you everybody who boosted and we had several that

1:06:13

were under the 2000 on-air cut too,

1:06:16

but we appreciate that. We had 18 total boosters

1:06:18

across 24 boosts and we stacked

1:06:20

a handsome 253,575. Thank

1:06:29

you everybody. If you'd like to boost into the

1:06:32

show, you can get a podcast app that supports

1:06:34

it at podcastapps.com. Fountain

1:06:36

FM has been fantastic since the

1:06:38

1.0 release. Pod versus GPL cross-platform

1:06:40

and available on the web and

1:06:42

Castomatic is the Cadillac for the

1:06:44

iOS platform. Check it out at

1:06:46

podcastapps.com. You can get your stats

1:06:49

through strike, send them over to Lightning

1:06:51

Network and boost into the show with your message.

1:06:53

We appreciate the support of this production. Thank you

1:06:55

everybody. We really do appreciate that

1:06:57

and of course a shout out to our members

1:06:59

as well, coder.show slash membership.

1:07:02

You can support the show with your Fiat fun

1:07:04

coupons directly that way and that's also extremely appreciated.

1:07:07

All right, Mr. Dominic, is there anywhere you want

1:07:09

to send the good people before we get out

1:07:11

of here? Go to alice.dev if you also have

1:07:13

ancient Windows data that you need to convert it

1:07:15

to something useful. There you go. That's

1:07:18

a good idea. Follow me at

1:07:21

chrislast.com or at chrislast on the

1:07:23

Weapon X Network and

1:07:25

at Coder Radio Show is the podcast network. I

1:07:27

mean the show, whatever it is, this is a

1:07:29

podcast, right? I think so. Anyways,

1:07:32

we have a handle over there at Coder Radio

1:07:34

Show or you know, there's God,

1:07:37

who cares it's Twitter. I don't know. There's

1:07:40

links. Wow. I'll probably care

1:07:42

more about that. I can't be bothered anymore

1:07:44

but great show notes. That's the

1:07:46

stuff we referred to including audio and the PDF

1:07:48

for the suit against Apple, coder.show slash

1:07:51

five six two. You'll find our RSS feed over

1:07:53

there. It's really simple and it's syndicated. You can

1:07:55

put it in your podcast app of choice or

1:07:57

just find Coder Radio in the podcast index. Thanks

1:08:00

so much for joining us. We're back to our Tuesday time

1:08:02

at noon Pacific, 3 p.m. Eastern next week. We'll

1:08:05

see you then.