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with Byte. This episode is

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leader on Ethereum. This

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is the Tom Hartman program. We

1:49

Real Cool by Gwendolyn Brooks. Alright, everyone, welcome to

1:51

Gen C. This

1:53

is Can Week, so Avery

1:55

is on the French Riviera,

1:58

enjoying, hopefully, some champagne. A

4:03

quick overview of the career. I

4:05

broke into comic book. That was

4:07

my first job at Marvel Comic

4:09

Books. I ping-ponged a

4:11

little bit between Marvel and DC

4:14

and then hit my stride doing

4:16

the Hulk and then eventually redefining

4:19

and setting sales records on Spider-Man, Amazing

4:21

Spider-Man. I gave me my own book

4:23

at that point that set some records.

4:25

It still stands today. And then

4:28

after a while, seven of us left

4:30

Marvel, bit disenchanted, started our own comic

4:32

company. I mean, everybody knows Marvel and

4:35

DC. But if you ask the next

4:37

natural question, who's number three, that would be our

4:39

company, Image Comics. And we have been for over

4:41

30 years. And then at the

4:43

beginning of starting Image Comics and helping

4:46

to co-found Image Comic Books back in

4:48

92 a couple years later, because I

4:50

came up with a character called Spawn

4:53

that set records. So I hold the record

4:55

both on the corporate side of

4:57

the fence and the non-corporate side of the

5:00

fence. I had to start a toy company

5:02

because I thought there were four pillars I

5:04

wanted to start with, which was TV, movie,

5:06

video games, and toys. When I created Spawn,

5:09

and I couldn't quite figure out the fourth

5:11

one on toys, so I just did it

5:13

myself. Not that I had

5:15

any ambition to be in that business, but

5:18

I start companies sometimes when I get mad.

5:20

And then we just done some stuff off

5:22

and on in video games and movies and

5:24

I've directed music videos and somewhere along the

5:27

line, one, you know, and me and a

5:29

Grammy for doing goofy stuff. And so I'm

5:31

a jack of all trades, Sam. Some

5:34

would argue a master of none, but that's okay.

5:36

And I've been at it for

5:38

a long time. And now this one comic book a

5:40

few years back set a Guinness Book of World Records

5:43

for the longest running creator on the book ever. I

5:46

mean, when I hear that, it's like an

5:48

artist, an entrepreneur, a world builder. I mean,

5:50

do you define yourself as any one thing or as

5:52

part of the ethos that you try to

5:55

just do it all? I think when

5:57

I first started, I was by myself for the first time. in

6:00

a room, right? When you're doing comic books,

6:02

like they give you your job near a

6:04

room with yourself for 12 hours. Okay. So you

6:07

have a lot of thoughts going through your mind

6:09

fast forward. When you start companies, you start hiring

6:11

people and getting stuff done

6:13

and expanding your possibilities become more

6:16

of a group thing. And I'm

6:18

hoping that one of the skills

6:20

I've I've acquired somewhat over the

6:23

years is knowing where

6:25

my weaknesses are and trying to

6:27

find people who can fill

6:29

those weaknesses. So you have a strong

6:31

team, maybe win a championship someday, right?

6:33

So I'm a sports guy. So this

6:35

is how you build winners, right? You

6:37

make sure that you don't have any

6:39

holes anyplace. And because of that, then

6:41

you just do what you got to

6:43

do. And and as you move forward,

6:46

you don't like at the beginning when

6:48

it was just me, Todd in a

6:50

room, I could just go, man, what would I

6:52

like to do? And I would just do it. I

6:54

don't have that luxury anymore, Sam. I'm also

6:56

frustratingly, I'm also a CEO.

6:59

And so there's, there's Todd, the artist at the beginning

7:01

of every thought process, which is like, Oh, man, that'd

7:03

be cool. I could do this, and

7:05

then it has to go through the process. And then I

7:07

have to come in and go Todd, the artist is

7:09

this practical for the company? And does it

7:11

make any sense? What that also

7:13

means is that I

7:16

don't have to do things that only Todd likes, which is

7:18

what I did at the very beginning. Right?

7:20

So for example, I'll give you an

7:22

example, we did a bunch of NASCAR

7:25

choice, right? Never watched a

7:27

NASCAR race in my life. Right?

7:29

But I understood that there were plenty

7:31

of people that did.

7:34

And so you just I have

7:36

a tendency of I'm a non

7:38

believer in the adage of the

7:40

movie that came out baseball movie

7:42

came out said build it, they'll

7:44

come right field the drink. I

7:47

don't believe it. I think it's a lie. I think

7:49

it's a I think they're duping you if you're going

7:51

to be an entrepreneur or business person, you build it,

7:53

you find where a bunch of humans are, you get

7:55

in front of them, and you make them run you

7:58

over, right? You've got you got to get

8:00

noticed and you got to get in their way. You can't

8:02

assume they're going to find you,

8:04

you have to find the humans. And so

8:07

to some extent, what all that said,

8:09

this that was part of the conversations

8:11

that we had of how we got

8:14

eventually in the crypto, there, there's a

8:16

group of people over there. And we

8:19

can either choose to ignore that or not.

8:21

And I chose not to ignore. We're

8:23

definitely gonna get into the crypto and blockchain stuff

8:26

soon. I wanted to stay on some

8:28

of the early stuff because I was thinking about this, I was I

8:30

grew up as a comic book nerd and

8:33

I loved it. And when I was thinking

8:35

back to those times, pre

8:37

internet, people followed their favorite bands, you

8:40

know, people had some the sports personalities that

8:42

they loved. But I remember those moments in

8:44

time where people started to know who the

8:47

artists were, who were drawing the

8:49

characters that they loved in comic books. And

8:51

it created this following of yourself and a

8:53

couple of others where people really just loved

8:56

the work of these incredible artists and creators.

8:58

And now fast forward, we live in a

9:00

world where you know, whether you're an illustrator

9:02

or photographer, the ecosystem supports people doing creative

9:04

things and being recognized and being able to

9:07

make a living on it. But back when

9:09

you were starting, that wasn't really the

9:11

reality. So no, so here's what happened

9:13

really quickly. And again, I could argue

9:16

I was sort of at the right

9:18

place at the right time. I was born 10 years

9:20

earlier, 10 years later, my

9:22

career may be a fraction of what

9:24

it is today. When I was collecting,

9:27

right, so let's go back into the 70s.

9:29

And when I was collecting the early 80s,

9:31

I recognized art styles of comic books. So

9:34

I could look at comic books.

9:37

And there were a nice

9:40

handful of people that I go, Oh, that's so

9:42

and so is work. Now, under

9:44

my head, I didn't know what that person

9:46

looked like. I knew that that was a

9:48

Neil Adams artwork. That was a John Byrne

9:50

artwork. That was a Gil Kane

9:52

artwork, Jack Kirby artwork didn't really know what

9:54

they look like. So we got to the

9:56

point where when we broke in and there

9:58

was like a new generation of us that

10:01

were coming into the business. Jim Lee, Mark

10:04

Silvestri, Rob Liefeld, myself, and we

10:06

created some big characters from Marvel.

10:08

I co-created Venom and Rob Liefeld

10:10

created Cable and Deadpool and things

10:12

like that. And we were getting

10:14

our own fan base. A magazine

10:16

came in that was called Wizard.

10:19

And Wizard was essentially kind of a

10:21

little bit like the internet, just that

10:23

it was in magazine form. And what

10:26

they had was favorite cover artists, favorite penciler,

10:28

favorite writers, and they had the top 10.

10:30

And then what they did that nobody had

10:32

done up to that point, they actually put

10:34

a picture of what you looked like next

10:36

to it. And that was really

10:39

as simple and as magical as it was,

10:41

because then people knew the name

10:43

just like I knew the name of the

10:45

people that I like their artwork, I just

10:47

could have walked by them on a street

10:49

not known, but now you could

10:52

have a magazine that was pretty popular that actually

10:54

had your face on. Then

10:56

very shortly thereafter, this thing called

10:58

the internet starts to boom. And

11:01

now you can have social media and you

11:03

can have your picture everywhere people can Google

11:05

and whatever else. So recognizing

11:08

your favorites, you've

11:10

written is way easier

11:13

now than obviously it was back then.

11:15

But like I said, I got in

11:18

just the cusp of that was just

11:20

starting to blow up. Well, and the

11:22

sort of existential question I was thinking about with

11:25

this, which when before the internet

11:27

before all that expectation was there, you guys

11:29

can really do your work. And obviously you're

11:31

on deadlines and everything now being creator as

11:33

a career is something aspired to by all

11:35

these kids. But I don't know if they

11:37

understand is it a good or bad for

11:39

the creative process to always have to meet

11:41

the expectation of more content, more engagement? Or

11:43

is you know, is that something that fuels

11:46

it? Do you think? Or is that something

11:48

that takes away from it? Sam, I think

11:50

it depends on how efficient you are at

11:52

it. So if you have to do your

11:54

book anyways, and you've got 20 pages, you've

11:57

got the content already because you're making it because

11:59

that's that's your job, right? I'm making toys, I'm

12:01

making comic book. Every now and then on social

12:03

media, I just go, here's a piece of that.

12:06

Here's a piece of it. So I'm

12:08

not, I'm not stopping the day job

12:10

to do social media and get distracted

12:13

from it, right? I'm not trying to

12:15

be an influencer, be famous for being

12:17

famous. I put stuff up on

12:20

the internet as factual information

12:23

of my art, which is

12:25

part, again, a whole

12:27

nother conversation we can have another day

12:30

of how you deal with media and how you

12:32

deal with and I've said before, hope it's not

12:34

offensive to anybody. If I put my art and

12:36

you don't like it, I don't give a shit.

12:38

And if you like it, I really

12:40

I kind of don't give a shit either. And the

12:42

reason I say that is because what

12:44

I put up on the internet is

12:47

finished. That's the cover. That's the toy.

12:49

That's the video game box. We're not

12:52

altering it. I'm not asking for

12:54

your approval. That's the finished product.

12:56

I'm giving you some information. That's

12:58

what it looks like. That's

13:01

the price. And that's when it comes out. Now,

13:03

you can choose to do whatever you want with

13:05

your life. And if you like it,

13:07

and want to support it good on you. I

13:10

appreciate it. And I've had a nice good

13:12

following of people who support and if you

13:15

don't, then I'd stay away from that thing

13:17

I just showed you. But telling me that

13:19

you like it or you don't like it.

13:21

I'm not altering a single line on

13:24

anything that I'm showing you. So it's easy

13:26

for me to not get caught

13:29

up in it. Because it doesn't matter whether

13:31

you like it or not. It's done. Done,

13:33

Sam, I've got deadlines. I've got it. By

13:35

the time you tell me you like it, I'm

13:38

on to the next thing. Right. So I can't

13:40

go backwards. And here's the thing that's interesting to

13:42

sound. I've said it too. You don't have to

13:44

tell me whether you like it or not. Because

13:46

I'm gonna know because I'm gonna get data on

13:48

the sales. And if sales start going down, I

13:50

have to basically sit and go, man, what are

13:52

we doing wrong? What are we doing different? What

13:54

are we doing that people don't like? And then

13:57

if it's going up, then we have to assume

13:59

that what we're doing. doing people like, so

14:01

we should probably continue to do it. But

14:03

Todd, the idea of co-collaboration with your audience

14:06

is not really in your consideration, said. You're

14:08

like, let me be who I am and

14:10

bring it to you. And if you like it, you're going to let me

14:13

know because you're going to buy it. I'm not looking for approval. I'm not,

14:16

I use social media differently than other people.

14:18

I'm not looking for likes and clicks and

14:20

whatever. I'm using it as a billboard. Here

14:22

it is. And it's up to you.

14:24

Like I said, wait, look

14:27

at, the name's Todd Oney Rhimes with God,

14:29

right? I control one human

14:31

being on this planet. I

14:33

can't force anybody to like my stuff.

14:36

I can't force anybody to

14:39

buy my stuff. I don't have that power,

14:41

which I did. I don't. So

14:43

it's up to you. All I can do

14:46

is show you what I think is quality

14:48

work. And then you decide for yourself as

14:51

a consumer, whether it's something that you

14:53

would enjoy. And again, I've said to

14:55

my critics for 30 years, Sam, it's

14:57

to the point that I'm boring with

14:59

it. That when people sort of

15:02

criticize my artwork, the answer is the same.

15:04

Then you should spend your time and

15:06

your money on things that you

15:08

personally enjoy. Done. Solve it. I just, I fixed

15:10

it for you. Right. I'm

15:13

not here to say, like, here's the thing.

15:15

I don't need eight billion and I'm not

15:17

just me, but most people, we don't need

15:20

eight billion. This is the false thing that

15:22

people are paying attention. I don't need eight

15:24

billion people to like my stuff. I need

15:26

enough people to like it so

15:29

that I can pay the bills and continue

15:31

to do it again. And I've been able

15:33

to find enough people, Sam, luckily for 40

15:35

years. So I don't, I

15:37

don't need everybody. Never. That was

15:40

never the goal. I just need enough. And luckily

15:42

I've had enough. I love that. I

15:44

want to talk a little bit about how you got

15:46

into the idea of collectibles and toys. And, you

15:49

know, I was reading about you

15:51

are collecting everything from home run baseballs from

15:53

Mark McGuire and Sammy. So back in the

15:55

nineties, it sounds like you are an avid

15:57

collector of things. And then with McFarland. and

16:00

toys, you also, what I really loved when I first started to

16:02

notice them out in the world, were

16:04

they weren't the traditional toys anymore. We

16:06

started to see other types of IP that

16:08

suddenly was in toy form, which became

16:10

more cultural, I would say, than there's

16:12

fandoms everywhere. But instead of seeing traditional

16:14

Spider-Man and Superman, now you see Game

16:16

of Thrones, or you see Dune, or you

16:19

see whatever it might be, or UFC.

16:21

So what do you think is the sort of

16:23

psychology around people who love collecting things? And it

16:25

made you feel like I wanted to spend time

16:27

in the toy business? Well, like I said, I

16:30

never thought I'd be in the toy business. So

16:33

both of those things you just talked

16:35

about, the home run ball and getting

16:37

in toy business, ironically, kind

16:39

of tied together. When I started the Spawn

16:42

comic book, right, so we left Marvel, we

16:44

started Image Comics, their largest company, we each

16:46

of the co-founders, there were six of us

16:48

at that point, had to come up with

16:50

our own book. I came up with Spawn,

16:52

right? He's been around now for 30 years.

16:55

So for people who are 31, 32

16:57

or younger, you've never been on the planet

16:59

without that word, that thing. So attrition is

17:01

a value. But Spawn came out,

17:04

it set records, it was a number one selling

17:06

book in the industry. So you can imagine- As

17:08

an independent specifically as well, correct? Yeah, I

17:10

mean, bigger than any Marvel and DC. Exactly,

17:12

yeah. Industry comic books. So you can imagine

17:14

that there's a wide range of people who

17:16

basically license products and make products. So all

17:18

of a sudden the door was knocking and

17:20

people saying, hey man, can I make t-shirts

17:23

and hats and everything, right? Like pajamas. And

17:25

I'm like, you know, it's a book from

17:27

a guy from the pit of hell, or

17:29

like you might want to read the book.

17:31

And I think that a lot of people

17:33

when they came knocking, they just saw that

17:35

it was above Batman and Spider-Man and Superman.

17:37

And so they went, oh my gosh, I

17:39

can just put it into the same formula.

17:41

To me, the answer was no, because it

17:43

was, I thought a little bit slightly mature

17:45

book, I don't think you want to put

17:47

it on your Crayola crayon. And eventually when

17:49

they did their homework, they didn't come back,

17:51

the right people. But one of the areas,

17:53

and I thought of the four that I

17:55

thought, TV, movie, video games, and toys, one

17:57

that came there all the time, I thought,

17:59

well, I'm going to do this. All the

18:01

public Fortune 500 companies came knocked on the

18:03

door and a couple of made

18:05

some pretty aggressive advances in terms of show

18:07

me what they wanted to do and put

18:09

money on the table stuff. I just didn't

18:11

feel, Sam, that they were going to make

18:14

a toy any different than the way they'd

18:16

been making it. Nor should they. And arguably,

18:18

in hindsight, they're a billion dollar

18:20

company. They have a formula. It works. It

18:22

makes them a billion dollars. But

18:25

I thought that since I was

18:27

doing a non-traditional character with non-traditional

18:30

stories at a slightly older

18:32

audience, that we needed

18:34

to make non-traditional looking toys and

18:36

sell them in non-traditional places. And

18:39

I'm talking about places at that time

18:41

like Babbage's and Tower Records and Virgin

18:43

Records and all these KB toys. All

18:45

these places don't exist anymore, but they

18:48

were there, right? Don't

18:50

put them into the standard three

18:52

spots that you normally put all of your toys

18:54

that you sell to six-year-olds and to moms. I

18:56

need something different. It needs to look different. It

18:59

needs to be sold in a different spot. They

19:01

weren't willing to make that adjustment.

19:03

And nor should they, because that's

19:06

just not their sweet spot. They

19:08

make billions catering to moms and six-year-olds across

19:10

the board. So I just went, okay, how

19:12

hard is it to make a toy? And

19:14

I made a few phone calls, and

19:17

I found a few people. And next

19:19

thing you know, we were at Toy

19:21

Fair, and I didn't even have a

19:23

sample. And I ended up getting

19:25

Toys R Us, at that point was the

19:27

biggest toy buyer, to come and

19:30

buy the product based on a promise

19:32

and put it store-wide. And once Toys

19:34

R Us did it, it was the

19:37

leader of toys, then Kmart and Walmart

19:39

and Target just soon fell into place,

19:41

and it went like that. Now,

19:43

again, it doesn't usually happen that easily, especially

19:45

if you don't even have a prototype. But

19:48

that got me off the ground, and

19:51

I've been able to sell again enough

19:53

over the last 30 years. We're celebrating

19:56

our 30th anniversary this year in the

19:58

toy business.