0:03

In the. United States. We have consultation

0:05

right which is engagement between in

0:07

entity and tribes, but consent is

0:10

living room for that moment of

0:12

yes or no or a conditional

0:14

no or conditional yes and then

0:16

proceeding with the rest of the

0:18

project. So consensus. The ability for

0:21

tribes and indigenous peoples to say

0:23

no and that's not the regime

0:25

we have in the United States.

0:27

We have a consultation regime that

0:29

shares information but doesn't always except

0:32

that no. Across the United States,

0:34

Native American communities deal with the

0:36

impacts of the energy transition. many

0:38

large scale renewable energy projects and

0:40

transmission lines, and more recently, mining

0:42

sites were critical minerals or built

0:44

on or near tribal lands. For

0:47

example, the Federal government plans to

0:49

loan billions of dollars to Lithium

0:51

America's to develop a Lithium mine

0:53

in Nevada at a location known

0:55

as That Are Pass which is

0:57

sacred to regional Native American tribes,

0:59

and these projects are not always

1:02

welcome with. The tumultuous history of

1:04

energy development on indigenous lands. Many

1:06

tribes push back on citing new

1:09

infrastructure in their territory. So how

1:11

is the energy transition impacting Native

1:13

American communities and one of the

1:16

advocacy groups and the Federal government

1:18

doing to protect indigenous rights and

1:20

limbs. This.

1:25

Is Columbia Energy Exchange a

1:27

weekly podcast from the Center

1:29

on Global Energy Policy at

1:31

Columbia University. I'm Bill Loveless.

1:40

Today. On the show. Kate. Fin. Kid.

1:42

Is the Executive Director of First

1:45

People's Worldwide Organization focused on upholding

1:47

the rights, serenity, and economic power

1:49

of Indigenous people around the world.

1:52

She was the inaugural American Indian

1:54

Law Program fellow at the University

1:56

of Colorado Law, where she worked

1:59

directly with. The Native Communities

2:01

A recent work focuses on the

2:03

impacts of development in indigenous communities

2:06

and I'm betting respect for indigenous

2:08

peoples into routine business operations. Can

2:10

join before the interview During the

2:13

recent Columbia Global Energy Summit at

2:15

Columbia University in New York, we

2:18

discuss the history of conflict or

2:20

Native American lands over energy projects

2:22

and how that history influences energy

2:25

development today. We also talked about

2:27

the rise of critical mineral mining.

2:29

It's. What it means for indigenous

2:32

communities. I hope you enjoy our conversation.

2:35

Gates. And welcome to Columbia Energy

2:37

Exchange! Thank. You so much for having

2:39

me! What thank you for being with us

2:41

and joining us here in New York is

2:43

exciting. This an exciting time to be discussing

2:45

issues like this and perhaps an Apartheid. Discs.

2:51

Tell us a little bit about yourself,

2:53

where you're from and and are and

2:55

how you got into the work that

2:57

you doing today. Absolutely well.

2:59

Thank you so much for having me

3:01

as a wonderful to be here to

3:04

speak to you and to speak test

3:06

all the experts that are here for

3:08

the Energy summit and and what also

3:10

brings me to New York this year

3:12

is a United Nations permanent for I'm

3:14

on and desist issue So I've spent

3:16

the last and dared to have running

3:18

into friends and colleagues from all over

3:20

the world and some so glad to

3:22

be here and speak about indigenous assists

3:24

and and Kate San and the Director

3:26

First People's Worldwide I'm an eye on

3:28

a member of. The other seeds nice

3:30

and out. Dallas. Each nation has roots

3:32

in that Missouri River valley Abbott now

3:35

has as a recent land in Oklahoma

3:37

and I myself live in Los Angeles

3:39

and sell a on my team is

3:41

spread out all over the country and

3:44

it's it's wonderful to be able said

3:46

bring these this is t It's a

3:48

day Am and I came to this

3:50

work So efforts people worldwide we work

3:52

on shareholder advocacy and building momentum for

3:55

indigenous people see shareholder advocacy and I

3:57

I came to work as an attorney.

4:00

For many years as an attorney in

4:02

in Indian country and working really closely

4:04

on issues of the So saw and

4:06

environmental and cultural aspects of developments in

4:08

in Indian country and and when I

4:10

went to law school I wasn't really

4:12

sure if I wanted to do Indian

4:14

loss as were aware of my prices

4:16

to be or not or were you

4:18

know what in it beats as as

4:20

at them or myself I thought well

4:22

surly or the pro bono work or

4:24

something like that. But what really caught

4:27

me what really The thing that I

4:29

love design and love. Now about practicing

4:31

an Indian country is the creativity that

4:33

we can bring to the solution said.

4:36

It's not always just illegal, loose and

4:38

we can talk about policy solutions We

4:40

can talk about an environmental solutions that

4:42

can talk about people we can talk

4:44

about the cultural aspects of development economic

4:47

aspects are we can even talk about

4:49

sacred places So all the things that

4:51

really a build a community we can

4:53

bring into our solution said So I

4:55

have really enjoyed my prices and attorney

4:58

now I work in a different in

5:00

a different fear in terms of shareholder

5:02

as to see but since the creativity

5:04

and solutions that that really. Drives me

5:06

and would really helps as you you've learned

5:09

from the ground up, I mean, just stood,

5:11

you know, culturally, you understand. It's.

5:13

In your blood but you got these

5:15

Learned the issues right from the ground

5:17

from your legal experience with Beyond the

5:20

Law. As you say for all the

5:22

other things that you witness in that

5:24

space we always say and house it's

5:26

an important time to be discussing these

5:28

issues and in the it seems as

5:31

though is timely to. I was reading

5:33

recently a column and forbes by a

5:35

writer's Elizabeth Mcbride who said quote Native

5:37

American stories are everywhere This year there's

5:40

the film Killers of The Flower Moon

5:42

which of course tells. The stories of

5:44

the murder of Oh Sees Tribe

5:46

members by Y Con artist who

5:48

sought the oil discovered on the

5:51

or seizures Oklahoma reservation. And there's

5:53

a book by jail for store

5:55

in need of Ned Blackhawks of

5:57

Rediscovery of America One the now.

6:00

The Book Award for Nonfiction. That's.

6:03

Not to say there's been a major

6:05

breakthrough in public understand and in of

6:07

indigenous issues, but it. But it seems

6:09

as though it's a good time for

6:11

you to tell the story. Absolutely

6:14

no. It's been really. Fun!

6:17

To watch all of these pieces come

6:19

into the public consciousness and to be

6:21

able to know that the story of

6:24

the Osage murder is is is front

6:26

and center and many people's minds. far

6:28

as many of as soon as grow

6:31

up with these stories and you know

6:33

carrying them with as is a story

6:35

that we always has to tell other

6:38

people and but now other people are

6:40

learning and we can have a really

6:42

with conversation about what constitutes us, history

6:44

and American history and south is really.

6:47

It you're one of the things I

6:49

thought about often a my work as

6:51

sets you know, indigenous people who you

6:54

ask me since Time Immemorial and we

6:56

are here and there so many ways

6:58

that we are a part of the

7:01

economy and a part of the concern

7:03

of heart of every one of these

7:05

systems are often times we've been invisible

7:08

and by operation of law and policy

7:10

by operation of culture we've been invisible.

7:12

But there's a real am ascendance, others

7:14

as and descendants of political power. And

7:17

ascendance of of cultural zeal. And so

7:19

I think this idea of invisibility is

7:21

getting system and how. and is this

7:24

really great to see that. And

7:26

and First People's Worldwide was

7:28

founded in a Ninety Ninety

7:30

Seven by the Cherokee economist

7:32

Rebecca Adamson to shift corporate

7:34

behavior to stronger consideration of

7:37

indigenous peoples rights. Tell us

7:39

about First People's. as

7:41

so i'm missing has been and

7:43

is to work from a foundation

7:45

of indigenous i used to achieve

7:48

sustainable future for all and rebecca

7:50

was visionary in her time to

7:52

see the ways that shareholder advocacy

7:55

could carry the priorities of in

7:57

business people and we've been doing

7:59

that for 25 plus years. And

8:02

our work really too is to

8:04

build bridges between indigenous peoples and

8:07

the private sector and to build a

8:09

business case for free prior and informed

8:11

consent. And to really put front and

8:13

center for investors the reasons that it's

8:16

imperative even now more than ever

8:19

to consider what their exposure

8:22

is to indigenous rights risk. And

8:24

of course, right now we're talking about green

8:27

energy, climate change and

8:29

other important issues for the economy,

8:31

for the energy transition, microchip manufacturing

8:33

also, all of which

8:36

require minerals, land, and water. And

8:39

this provides Native Americans with

8:41

economic potential, right? The

8:44

Indian Minerals or the Indian Energy Minerals

8:46

Forum reported that 97% of nickel, 89%

8:48

of copper, 79% of lithium, and

8:54

89% of cobalt are potentially on or

8:56

within 35 miles of

8:58

Indian reservations. Those

9:01

numbers are stunning. Did I get them right? That's

9:03

it. Those are the numbers. That

9:05

just blew me away when I

9:08

realized the potential,

9:10

the economic potential, just where this

9:12

stuff is, where it's located. I

9:15

had no idea, to be honest. Yeah, it

9:17

was stunning when that report came

9:19

out to really see where

9:22

we are in history and where we

9:24

are in terms of where these minerals

9:26

are. Because of course, through policy, there's

9:28

an incentive to get those minerals very,

9:31

very quickly and to get those minerals

9:33

for clean energy. But if we take

9:35

a step back and we look at

9:37

Indian country and we look at Native

9:39

nations, the goal,

9:41

the end game for Native nations,

9:44

is energy sovereignty. And

9:46

energy sovereignty is as big as you just said.

9:49

It's making sure that Native

9:51

nations are really benefiting from

9:54

this Clean energy, transition, and

9:56

benefiting from all these things. And We have, there's

9:58

kind of two parts to that. Have

10:00

a look at the history. play

10:02

the history again on Osage plans

10:04

of. You know

10:06

those age reserved mineral rights for

10:09

the members for the nice sense

10:11

of because of the lot time

10:13

because I'm frankly very under policies.

10:17

There was a spate of murderers

10:19

that came from that's and. Even.

10:22

Today because of the jurisdictional Me as

10:25

because of the criminals or a six

10:27

and Indian country and there are there

10:29

is an epidemic of missing and murdered

10:31

indigenous women and missing and murdered indigenous

10:34

fellas. Him because of that criminal Me

10:36

as the we have to think through

10:38

all of the impacts of development and

10:40

if there's ninety percent of I think

10:42

is copper and nickel on indigenous lands

10:45

we have to look at the history

10:47

and we know the history is that

10:49

Often when there's mining on and on

10:51

native lands the. Economic benefits.

10:54

Go elsewhere. They do not stay

10:56

on the land but the environmental

10:58

degradation that occurs. Z e o

11:00

cultural effects of having me no

11:02

one of the criminal enterprise that

11:04

comes because the boom and bust

11:06

economies that those effects from mean

11:09

they're So we have to really

11:11

things through this pattern so that

11:13

we are not doing this pattern.

11:15

Having this pattern replicate itself again

11:17

in the name as I'm Clean

11:19

Energy and other sites you see

11:21

others a huge history of uranium

11:23

mining. And Indian Country in

11:26

particular It Navajo am and

11:28

I believe that there's over

11:30

five hundred at different. Locations.

11:34

On the Navajo nice and as still need clean

11:36

up. and those uranium mines

11:38

have been closed for some time and

11:40

that today that's now and this isn't

11:42

even contemplating new lines so there's this

11:44

whole aspect of how do we change

11:46

the paradigm of interaction with tribes how

11:49

do we make sure it's at the

11:51

benefits accrue to native any sense and

11:53

nasas others ass off hand residents we

11:55

move into the second part that you

11:57

that you brought up which is this

11:59

opportunity economic development and the opportunity

12:01

to develop new economic drivers and

12:04

to do so in alignment with

12:06

tribal values. Yeah, and I want to, and you

12:08

have a plan. You have a plan for doing that.

12:10

I want to get into that in a minute, but

12:12

I think it helps to have some illustration of

12:15

some of the things that are happening right now. And

12:18

I'll start with just lithium, because

12:20

it's so much on people's minds these days in

12:22

terms of critical mineral needed for green energy. And

12:25

recently the U.S. government offered a

12:27

Canada-based company, Lithium Americas, a conditional

12:31

$2.3 billion loan for

12:34

the construction of a lithium

12:36

carbonate processing plant at Thakupas

12:38

in Nevada. I

12:40

read it's the largest proven lithium reserve

12:42

in North America and the biggest federal

12:45

investment in a lithium mine

12:47

to date. The project, as I

12:49

understand it, has the support of some

12:51

but not all of the

12:53

tribes in the region has

12:56

this gone well from an Indigenous point

12:58

of view? You

13:00

know, frankly, where we have to start

13:02

with this conversation is consent. Who

13:05

has consented to the project? Who has

13:07

incentivized the project? And what is

13:09

going on on the ground? And in

13:11

this particular project, when we're talking

13:13

about Sacri-PAS, there is not consensus,

13:15

there is not consent for this

13:17

project to move ahead. There are,

13:19

of course, several tribes that have

13:21

litigation pending to protect

13:23

that sacred place. There

13:26

are several Native organizations that are

13:28

holding Thakupas as a sacred space

13:30

to them. And so

13:32

what I see is an incredible risk

13:34

to companies in

13:36

terms of being involved in

13:39

that project. And that

13:41

risk can be in a

13:43

number of different ways. We talked

13:45

about there's litigation already. So companies

13:47

that enter that project are already

13:50

facing litigation costs. There's

13:52

reputational risk. General

13:54

Motors signed a direct deal last year to

13:57

Produce more or to get mineral.

14:00

From that area I'm and they

14:02

are facing some reputation. Will go

14:04

back for that's and there's socialist

14:06

if there's opposition and than that

14:09

of course generates. Reputation.

14:11

Or risk as well and and release

14:13

as well. I see it as a

14:15

moment where that the government is not

14:17

taking into account is several months ago

14:19

in that relationship with size and is

14:21

not allowing consent to come true Me

14:24

to my things. This projects are we

14:26

know and we've known since Twenty Twenty

14:28

One that there is no consent. And

14:30

there's no consensus to move for an

14:32

interesting and a goes to show the

14:34

conflict the these days between the need

14:36

for these critical minerals and the rights

14:38

of the people's on who's lands. These.

14:42

These minerals or reside and your than

14:44

the government's role at had some or

14:46

I want to talk a little bit

14:48

more about in a minute but let's

14:50

let's get to the summers specific so

14:53

you're going your game plans for addressing

14:55

some of these issues. There

14:58

over the. Past. Couple of

15:00

years Firs People's Long with

15:02

other organizations launched an initiative

15:04

called Securing Indigenous peoples rights

15:06

in the Green. Economy: To

15:09

address the impact on indigenous peoples

15:11

related to the increasing global demand

15:13

for these minerals, Tell

15:16

us about that effort. Yeah, so. What?

15:18

Really happened. What happened is that

15:21

in Twenty twenty there was a

15:23

company in the time yes peninsula

15:25

in Siberia that's that has their

15:28

their emphasis or fell through and

15:30

and polluted a river That was

15:32

necessary that a lot of indigenous

15:35

peoples in the area use for

15:37

their subsistence. And a group

15:39

of us came together to help

15:41

those indigenous people talk directly to

15:43

the company and to talk to

15:45

other companies that were sourcing nickel

15:47

from the area s and. about

15:50

this rescap as the fact that these people

15:52

didn't have this for the season is that

15:54

they didn't have enough food to see their

15:56

children so they were having to send their

15:59

children to other towns for school. I mean, these

16:01

are real life impacts that were happening in 2020. And

16:03

then we began hearing

16:05

that these kinds of events were happening

16:07

around the world and were more likely

16:09

to happen because we have a study

16:11

now that shows that of

16:13

the 30 transition minerals

16:15

needed for this energy transition,

16:18

54% are on

16:20

or near indigenous peoples land around the world.

16:23

So what we saw is that as

16:25

there is an incentive for more, more

16:27

minerals in the world, these kinds of

16:29

things will be happening more and happening

16:32

more and more. So five organizations, including

16:34

First Peoples Worldwide came together. And what

16:36

we really want is transformative solutions, we

16:38

want to change the paradigm, we want

16:41

to make sure that indigenous peoples have

16:43

the opportunity to consent to projects, they

16:45

have the opportunity to participate in the

16:47

projects, and to have real decision making

16:49

power. And so to your question about

16:52

urgency, it's

16:54

really on our mind that there is an urgent

16:56

need to incentivize free prior

16:58

and informed consent as enumerated in the

17:01

UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous

17:03

Peoples, in order to not

17:05

only protect the human rights of the people

17:07

living on the land where the minerals are,

17:09

but also to show

17:12

corporations that is not in their

17:14

best interest to move forward

17:16

without consent. What's

17:19

the difference between consent and consultation?

17:22

I'm so glad you asked that question.

17:24

So in the United States, we have

17:26

consultation, right, which is engagement

17:28

between an entity and tribes

17:30

or an engagement between an

17:32

entity and indigenous peoples. And

17:34

usually that has to do

17:36

with information sharing, it has

17:38

to do with making

17:41

sure that there is, you know,

17:43

information in the right language, making

17:45

sure that there's a conversation. But

17:47

consent is leaving room for that

17:49

moment of yes, or no, Or

17:52

a conditional no or conditional yes, and

17:54

then proceeding with the rest of the

17:56

project. So Consent is the ability for

17:58

tribes and. People have

18:00

to say now and and that's not the

18:03

regime we have the I'd say it's we

18:05

have a consultation regime that shows and some

18:07

a sense for doesn't always except sad that

18:09

now and so when I talk to businesses

18:12

what I say is that to the private

18:14

sector you have to design for the hardest

18:16

case. You. Have to design for

18:19

the know what happens if a

18:21

tribe. Or group of tribes or

18:23

group of indices. People say know, how

18:25

do you operationalize that and for

18:27

me, that really his son that

18:30

p that the prior and free

18:32

prayer and informed consent. It requires

18:34

meaningful engagement over a period of

18:36

years to understand. Where.

18:39

Consent lies and what's going on. And.

18:42

So. I'll I'll just say I heard

18:44

it again last month. I've worked with

18:46

tribal leaders for a number of years

18:48

and and several of them have told

18:50

me in an oil and gas time

18:53

tax cheats on now against Oil and

18:55

Gas. Hum. Against the route of

18:57

this pathway and the route Classes

18:59

are circling. Please allow classes and

19:01

important Close to nine months and

19:04

so I think it's important to

19:06

see that indigenous peoples are not

19:08

anti developments. they're not know people.

19:10

Third night am against one sector

19:12

or another. It's about protecting the

19:15

place that they live and being

19:17

able to use the resources that

19:19

they have. Well yeah you mentioned roads

19:21

and immediately what comes to mind is

19:23

the Dakota Access Pipeline? Spend bill know?

19:25

But there was an uproar among the

19:27

tribal peoples over the path of that

19:30

land and in it was an important

19:32

episode. I think in this whole experience

19:34

reuters to tell us about, but. Absolutely.

19:37

such as such he did it he

19:39

said he because so much of the

19:41

information became public and so i want

19:43

to say that this series of events

19:46

that happened with the dakota access pipeline

19:48

is something that happens all over the

19:50

world ominous happens all over time as

19:52

well but essentially what happened is is

19:55

that that company went around the pipeline

19:57

that went through north dakota say rather

19:59

than above Bismarck and because

20:02

the people in Bismarck said no we

20:04

do not want that they rerouted the

20:07

pipeline to just above the reservation border

20:09

of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe. So

20:12

the company went and spoke with the tribal council in

20:14

2014 and in 2014 the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe said

20:16

no we

20:20

don't approve of this route and that was another

20:23

instance of a tribal leader saying I'm not against

20:25

oil and gas this

20:27

route does not work for us. It is above

20:29

our water intake for our reservation

20:31

that is water

20:34

used for all the different uses. So

20:37

we would like to not have this.

20:39

So that happened in 2014 but the

20:41

company moved forward and moved forward. Beginning

20:43

in April of 2016 we start to

20:45

see a pressure building on the

20:47

ground. We start to see the camps being built.

20:49

We start to see real pressure in the media.

20:52

By fall of 2016 that's

20:54

when you see the camp growing to

20:56

thousands and thousands of people in support

20:58

of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe. And

21:00

then you also start to see the

21:03

securitized response by the state and by

21:05

the company. This is when you start to

21:07

see dogs biting people. This is when you

21:09

start to see the sound shannons and water

21:11

cannons used. President Obama made a statement in

21:14

November of that year. But what

21:16

we at First Peoples Worldwide did

21:18

a study and what we found is

21:20

that even though there was litigation, even

21:23

though there was social protests that

21:25

broadcast on media outlets, the company

21:27

did not disclose any of the

21:30

social upheaval to shareholders until November

21:32

of 2016. So

21:36

don't they have a fiduciary duty to

21:38

their shareholders to let them know that

21:40

there's no consent? That there is litigation,

21:42

that there is social upheaval. And we

21:44

at First Peoples Worldwide did a study

21:46

and we found that through

21:49

that period of time, the

21:51

company lost 20%

21:54

on the stock market as compared to the S&P 500 that grew

21:56

35%. 55%

22:00

difference there, which shows to me, it

22:03

shows, and there's a lot of different

22:05

factors involved in those studies, but it

22:07

shows that the

22:09

failure to respect indigenous peoples, the

22:11

failure to respect consent can lead

22:13

to real material losses. That there was a

22:16

price to pay. Yes. The pipeline was

22:18

completed in 2017. Oil is running

22:20

through it as we speak. You

22:22

say there were other routes that might have been

22:25

considered, but that didn't happen. There's

22:30

been other disputes as

22:33

well. Just recently, the

22:35

papers, the news reported, in Oklahoma,

22:37

judges ordered the removal of 84

22:42

turbines on a wind farm in

22:44

Osage County and set a

22:46

trial for damages. It

22:48

was a win for the Osage

22:50

Nation. That's

22:53

84 turbines. In theory, it

22:56

would have to be removed under this. It's

22:59

a little bit the same story. There

23:02

was no direct dealing with the tribe.

23:04

Permits were sought from the county and

23:06

from the state, but not with the

23:08

tribe. The tribe has been

23:10

saying for almost a decade that

23:12

they wanted to be a part

23:14

of the decision-making regarding

23:16

the turbines and how the turbines were built.

23:20

They've been saying no, in

23:22

some ways, to that deal going

23:24

forward. When

23:26

we talk about this clean energy

23:28

transition, let's not have the same

23:31

story of consent. I want to

23:33

draw attention to the fact that

23:35

this happened in Osage County with

23:37

this wind turbines and there's been

23:39

other cultural considerations in terms of

23:41

those turbines. In

23:43

Norway, the Sami people

23:45

are also working and fighting

23:48

against a renewable energy company

23:50

that put turbines on their

23:52

reindeer herding territory. This

23:55

is one of the last territories in the world where

23:57

they can herd the reindeer and where the reindeer are

23:59

able to... access all of the

24:01

places that they need, but the turbines interfere

24:03

with that. And the

24:06

Sami people hold reindeer husbandry as

24:08

very close to their culture, close

24:10

to their economic security, and so

24:12

this company just came in and

24:14

without consent built those turbines

24:17

and an international court ruled in the

24:19

Sami Parliament's favor a couple

24:21

years ago. So again, it's the

24:24

same story of consent. It's the

24:26

idea that the indigenous peoples,

24:29

when we talk about the economy, when

24:31

we talk about energy, we're also talking

24:33

about our land as a

24:35

cultural part of our being, as the

24:37

spiritual part of our being, as the

24:40

animals and plants that are on that.

24:43

And we have to have that holistic

24:45

view and I think that's what

24:47

we need to turn to if we're going to

24:49

do something different with an energy transition. You

24:52

mentioned these efforts abroad. I

24:54

mean, it reminds me that this is

24:56

a global organization you're part of too,

24:58

right? We're not just talking about the

25:00

United States. There's much happening in the

25:02

rest of the world too that you're

25:04

focused on. You know, there's a lot

25:06

of discussion these days of environment, social,

25:08

and governance considerations, ESG. The

25:11

topic has become quite politicized

25:13

recently. Are

25:15

indigenous rights reflected in

25:18

these ESG considerations? Absolutely.

25:21

So, and I've worked

25:23

with a number of

25:25

different people, indigenous people in

25:27

the US and Canada, to say that there is

25:30

an eye that threads through all of ESG. So,

25:32

there's an indigenous

25:34

aspect to be found in every part

25:36

of that framework. So, if you're talking

25:38

about the environment, well, indigenous

25:41

peoples steward almost more

25:43

than 90-80% of the

25:45

biodiversity in the world. So,

25:48

if you're looking at biodiversity and land

25:51

ownership and land tenure under

25:53

the E, indigenous peoples are there. If

25:55

you're looking at the S and

25:57

you're looking at your responsibilities to human rights.

26:00

to obtain a social license to operate.

26:02

Well, Indigenous peoples are there, and there

26:04

are impacts on Indigenous peoples, absolutely. And

26:06

if you're looking at governance, what

26:09

does the company's procurement policies look like

26:11

as to Indigenous peoples? If they are

26:13

on the ground in Indigenous communities, are

26:16

they really providing fair

26:18

labor standards for Indigenous workers? Are

26:20

they providing fair pay? Are they

26:22

providing the kinds of economic benefits

26:24

that the tribe would want? So

26:26

anyone interested in ESG, I

26:28

think has a really ingrained

26:31

responsibility to look at where

26:33

that impacts Indigenous peoples. And

26:36

yes, ESG has become more politicized over

26:38

time. And I would just say that,

26:42

you know, again, there is this

26:44

urgent need as we look at

26:46

the critical minerals that, or the

26:49

ways that policymakers

26:52

are captioning critical minerals, that

26:55

all companies, all policymakers, need the data

26:57

that Indigenous peoples have. They need to

26:59

know who is on the land. They

27:01

need to know what is going on.

27:04

And I always give the example that, like, there's

27:07

so many companies that are operating

27:09

in the Arctic or in very

27:11

sensitive ecosystems, right? Well, the

27:14

people that live in those ecosystems are going

27:16

to know about the permafrost. They're

27:18

going to know if the permafrost is slowing

27:20

faster or slower. They're going to know if

27:22

the infrastructure that's built is sinking or not.

27:25

That is information that a company needs to know.

27:28

They will know if the tailings pond,

27:30

if the climate is getting warmer and

27:33

there's more humidity in the air

27:35

and the tailings pond is leaching

27:37

chemicals into the land. Those

27:39

are things that tribal preservation officers

27:42

might know. I get the

27:44

impression there's still a big gap.

27:46

We were talking about consent and

27:48

consultation before, and you have discussions

27:50

with people, with corporate leaders, corporate

27:52

representatives. The gap

27:54

is still there. It still seems as though it's significant. It

27:56

seems as though there's a long way to go before. Therefore,

28:00

there's more of a

28:04

consultation and consent between

28:07

these parties or among these parties. And

28:10

yet the urgency of mining

28:12

and processing these minerals is

28:14

tremendous right now. Do

28:19

you see some signs of progress?

28:21

Do you feel as though that

28:24

this gap can be closed to

28:26

some extent in some

28:29

reasonable period of time, not only for

28:31

the corporate needs, but also for the indigenous

28:33

needs? Yeah, absolutely. I

28:35

mean, can we wait? How long can we wait?

28:38

How long can they wait? That's the question, right? We're

28:41

here in the world and I do

28:44

believe a lot of these incentives for

28:46

transition mineral mining come out of an

28:48

ethos of wanting to solve the

28:50

climate crisis, to build

28:53

a healthier planet for

28:55

the planet itself and for the people on it.

28:57

And so if we really look at that, what

28:59

I think is we have to solve for both

29:01

at the same time. This

29:04

is a moment where we can't just do a

29:06

linear solution. We need all of the solutions.

29:08

We need everything to happen at the same

29:11

time. And so in a world where

29:13

it still takes 15 to 20 years for a mine

29:15

to get up and running and

29:17

to be excited and permitted and built and

29:19

all of those different things. And

29:23

in a world, what gives me hope? You asked me what gives me

29:26

hope. We know that

29:28

in cases where there is consent,

29:30

projects move forward well. Okay,

29:33

so let's talk about where

29:35

there is consent and projects move well. We've talked

29:37

about some of the pitfalls and some of the

29:40

projects that haven't gone so well from an indigenous

29:42

point of view and considering their interests. What's

29:46

an example of where things are

29:48

going well? So the best examples

29:50

that I can give are the examples that

29:53

are indigenous led. The examples

29:55

where tribes themselves are building and

29:57

participating in the economy in a

29:59

really big way. This is an

30:01

example like Navajo Power, which is

30:03

a business out of the

30:05

Navajo Nation that really is looking to

30:07

build utility scale solar for Navajo

30:10

people. And what I

30:12

love about this business is it

30:14

starts with people walking the land

30:18

with the folks who live on

30:20

that land and learning about the

30:22

land itself. Are there ancestors who

30:24

are buried here? Are there

30:26

ceremonies that are conducted here? How

30:29

much sun does this place get? What does

30:32

it look like? And it goes from there

30:34

not only to build and scale solar for

30:36

use of the Navajo people,

30:38

but to sell solar back to the

30:41

energy grid. And it's huge. I

30:43

mean, it's what, 2,250 megawatt coal? Well,

30:46

it replaces a 2,250 megawatt coal plant in Arizona.

30:52

And it's huge. I mean, either solar

30:54

farm would be huge. It's huge. And

30:57

if you want to look at what does just

30:59

transition look like in real time, what

31:01

it looks like to close a coal

31:04

mine, and truly the devastation

31:06

that comes along to the local economy

31:08

with that, but then also to look

31:11

to build new economic drivers, to build

31:13

an energy grid that's useful for the

31:15

people there, and also as an economic

31:17

driver. This is Navajo Power. And

31:20

they've built a capital stack that

31:22

really allows for a huge amount

31:24

of runway and scaling up.

31:27

And I think that in the

31:29

clean energy economy, it's tribes and indigenous

31:31

peoples who have the solutions that we

31:33

need as a global community. Yeah,

31:36

that would be the one example you'd point to,

31:38

of success. I think that's

31:40

one example of success. There

31:44

are tribal initiatives around the US to

31:46

build infrastructure for electric

31:49

vehicles in the Midwest. There

31:51

are other renewable energy projects

31:54

from New York to California. And

31:56

I would say, too, when we talk about this issue of

31:59

energy, we're talking about energy, we have to also

32:01

look at the issue, at the fact that

32:04

so many in the United States is true

32:07

and certainly all over the world. There are

32:09

indigenous peoples living in places that still do

32:11

not have electricity and they do not

32:13

have easy access to electricity,

32:16

to the internet, to water,

32:18

all those things. And yet

32:20

there are electric wires passing

32:22

over their heads. So when

32:24

I talk about global solutions, you know,

32:26

when you think about native communities, these

32:28

are communities in many cases, not all

32:31

that live at the end of the

32:33

energy and infrastructure. So when there's an

32:35

energy disruption, they're usually the ones whose

32:37

power is first off and last on.

32:40

So if we look at places like the

32:42

Blue Lake Rancheria in California, many

32:45

years ago, they set forward to build a

32:47

micro grid for just that instance, because they

32:49

often had energy disruptions. So they built a

32:51

micro grid that included, I believe, tribal

32:55

buildings and

32:57

the casino. Well, there were wildfires

33:00

in 2019. Because the

33:03

tribe had a micro grid, they

33:05

were actually able to help the

33:07

entire county that didn't have any

33:09

power during that wildfire event. And

33:11

they were able to actually have

33:13

some of the patients from the

33:15

local hospital use that

33:17

micro grid. That is the kind of innovation

33:19

that we need in this world when there's

33:22

instability in the climate. And so I think

33:24

if we look at the solutions that indigenous

33:26

peoples have built, and we

33:29

provide access to capital, access

33:31

to the energy grid, and really

33:33

think through these policies, those

33:35

are the solutions that we can scale. You

33:38

know, we're here at the Center on Global Energy

33:40

Policy. You know, our great

33:42

interest is in energy policy and the ways

33:44

it can be most effective in bringing about

33:48

effective solutions for a green

33:51

energy transition. We

33:54

look at what different governments are doing, including

33:56

the Biden administration. And there

33:58

I read the where tribal leaders

34:01

are growing frustrated with

34:03

the Biden administration and its

34:05

ambitious plans for clean energy projects

34:07

that could infect their ancestral lands.

34:10

And recently, the Washington Post's Maxine

34:13

Jostlow reported about an electric

34:15

transmission line that would cut across a

34:17

portion of the San Pedro Valley in

34:19

Arizona. You were mentioning transmission lines a

34:21

minute ago. And

34:24

she reported, quote, while the White

34:27

House has worked to repair the

34:29

federal government's relationships with indigenous peoples,

34:31

that effort is conflicting with another

34:33

Biden priority, expediting projects essential

34:35

to the energy transition. Is

34:37

this a big bone of

34:39

contention between indigenous peoples and

34:41

the Biden administration? So

34:43

what we really need in the United States is

34:46

to return to a consent framework.

34:49

And with a consent framework, what

34:52

that means is that before projects

34:54

are cited, before they are capitalized,

34:56

before they are made to

34:59

happen through the Department of Energy, the

35:01

Biden administration could know whether

35:03

or not the tribes agree or disagree.

35:06

It's the same as citing an oil

35:08

and gas project. It's the same as

35:10

these other infrastructure projects. There

35:12

needs to be a way for all

35:14

of the tribes to have their priorities

35:16

considered and integrated into

35:18

decision making. Yeah. The

35:21

Interior Department today is headed by a

35:23

Native American, Deb Holland, a

35:25

member of the Pueblo of Laguna. She's

35:28

the first Native American to serve

35:30

in that capacity. Has she

35:32

made a difference on these issues? She

35:34

has made a difference. It's amazing to have

35:36

a Native woman in that

35:39

chair and to see her carry

35:42

out these priorities. And what I

35:44

see from her is a real

35:46

attention to, as I

35:48

was saying before, this holistic view of

35:51

what's important to Indigenous peoples. She

35:53

talks about the energy and what different economic development

36:00

looks like, but she knows and

36:02

acts on her priorities to think

36:04

about the cultural impacts of a

36:07

place. So she has put

36:09

in place an effort that's been rolled

36:12

out already to rename so many

36:14

places in the United States that

36:17

have, frankly, racist names and

36:19

that belittle Native American people.

36:22

But she has made sure that

36:24

our government is renaming those places

36:26

and renaming them in ways that

36:28

are consonant with tribal values. So

36:31

I think it makes a huge difference

36:33

to have somebody in that place who

36:35

can really carry forward those values. Yeah,

36:38

it just takes time. It does. It

36:41

takes time. Before

36:44

we leave, I'm just interested in sort of,

36:46

we've talked about the challenges and the difficulties,

36:49

but how do you

36:51

feel about these things looking forward? Are you

36:54

optimistic that these, that progress can be made

36:56

in a reasonable time? Each

36:59

day when you come into this job,

37:01

what gives you sort of a boost

37:03

in terms of your outlook? That's

37:05

a really good question. And when

37:07

I was asked to join the surge coalition,

37:10

I really had to have a reckoning. So

37:12

I was like, oh man, we've

37:14

been really fighting the oil and

37:17

gas sector and the mining sector

37:19

and this extractive industry. And

37:22

do I want to do that again? How would the

37:24

energy transition is going to be about? Because man,

37:26

oh man, that took a lot of time. But

37:29

the reason that I joined and the reason that I'm

37:32

here is because I see

37:34

in transition an opportunity. I

37:37

see the growing power of indigenous

37:39

voices and indigenous solutions. And I

37:41

think where all of us in

37:43

all different sectors and all different

37:46

places are grappling with what does

37:48

transition mean? I

37:50

think there's an opportunity to elevate

37:53

indigenous solutions and to be part

37:55

of decision-making. And

37:57

so what gives me optimism is...

38:00

that we can reframe systems,

38:02

that we can reframe decision

38:04

making, and that we

38:06

can really see the

38:09

incredible contribution of Indigenous

38:12

peoples worldwide to biodiversity,

38:14

to the environment, to

38:17

our intellectual property, to

38:19

cultural property. And

38:21

I think transition is just the time to do

38:23

that. And the story has taken on greater prominence.

38:25

Yes. Kate Finn, thanks

38:28

for joining us today on Columbia Energy Exchange.

38:30

Thank you so much for having me. That's

38:37

it for this week's episode of Columbia

38:39

Energy Exchange. Thank you again, Kate Finn,

38:41

and thank you for listening. The

38:43

show is brought to you by the

38:46

Center on Global Energy Policy at Columbia

38:48

University School of International and Public Affairs.

38:50

The show is hosted by Jason Bordoff

38:52

and me, Bill Loveless. The

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show is produced by Aaron Hardick

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