0:00

Hey, it's Angela, host of a Red

0:02

Hat podcast you might have heard of

0:04

called Compiler. What's your schedule like in

0:06

May or like May 6th through 9th?

0:09

Because that's when Red Hat

0:11

Summit and Ansible Fest are

0:13

coming to Denver. Two tech

0:15

events under one roof with

0:17

so much to explore. Hybrid

0:19

cloud, automation, AI, you name

0:21

it. Register with the code

0:24

RHPodcast to save $400.

0:27

Just visit red.ht

0:30

forward slash go to summit. When

0:33

people hit hard times or

0:36

encounter a difficult situation, they

0:38

look for the light at the end of

0:40

the tunnel or sometimes they call it the

0:42

darkness before the dawn. But for

0:44

some of us, during times when

0:46

stress is really high, it

0:49

can be challenging to believe that there's a light at

0:51

all. I left college and

0:53

the realisms of the real world kicked

0:55

in immediately, right? I just ran my

0:58

cheetah, sit me down, go in. I'm

1:00

gonna go make it happen now. And I was like, how? He's like, I

1:02

don't know. In my experience, a

1:04

happy ending isn't always a guarantee, even

1:07

when you start out with the best intentions.

1:10

We thought that we knew what our customers would

1:13

need. They were asking us again and again to

1:15

build the same thing. Today,

1:20

we're going to hear two stories from two

1:22

different people in two different parts of the

1:24

world about how things can turn

1:26

out okay in the end, despite

1:28

the odds. This

1:32

is Compiler, an original podcast

1:34

from Red Hat. I'm Kim

1:36

Wong. And I'm Angela Andrews. We

1:39

go beyond the buzzwords and the

1:42

jargon and simplify tech topics. We're

1:44

sharing stories from industry veterans about

1:46

how they found their footing in

1:48

the tech industry. Today,

1:51

All's Well That Ends Well. I

1:58

want to bring back Evgeny Preci. Nadine. He's

2:00

a guest from a previous episode in

2:02

the series. Evgeny is based

2:05

in Spain, so that's where our episode

2:07

starts. Early

2:10

on in his time as CEO of

2:12

Appium Hub, his team had

2:14

a client, a customer, like the ones he

2:16

mentions at the top of the episode. This

2:19

particular customer asked for the same thing

2:22

to be built again and again, remember,

2:24

which was fine, but possibly a

2:26

bit tedious for the teams involved. Evgeny

2:29

and his crew thought they had a better

2:31

way. We had an

2:34

idea and we started to build it

2:36

and we created a user management and

2:38

payment system as well. It was like

2:40

a bunch of features combined. The

2:42

team was excited about the work. They

2:45

had an established use case and there

2:47

was a lot of energy around making

2:49

things simple and more efficient. It really

2:51

feels like that startup environment,

2:53

you know? And it sounds

2:56

innocent enough. A group of

2:58

ambitious, driven developers making something that would

3:00

serve their customers better. We

3:02

spent almost two years building and

3:04

investing in this product. And

3:07

once we thought we had it ready, I

3:09

tried to pitch it to our clients and

3:11

to offer it even on a free basis.

3:14

Evgeny and his thoughtful, talented team

3:16

was ready to take their product

3:18

to market, but they wanted

3:20

to see what this customer thought of

3:23

it first. After all, it

3:25

was an idea that was born from the

3:27

work that his team was doing in support

3:29

of their business. What could

3:31

go wrong? They

3:33

refused to use it. I

3:37

can't help but laugh at that. Yeah.

3:40

Just to kind of break down the

3:42

situation, Evgeny and his new team, they've

3:44

been doing what they've been doing maybe

3:46

for a couple of years. They're

3:48

a very small company, very small

3:51

team. They had this customer

3:53

that was asking for the same thing to be

3:55

built over and over. And instead of having developers

3:57

kind of dedicated to that work and doing it,

4:00

It's fine to have that, right? But

4:02

they wanted to make things more efficient,

4:04

and they thought that they would kind

4:06

of have this really great solution built

4:08

for this customer and other customers like

4:10

them. So it's not just a situation

4:12

where they're trying to satisfy one customer,

4:14

right? They're trying to build a business

4:16

off of it. You know, they're seeing,

4:18

maybe they have other customers that have

4:20

similar pain points or similar challenges. They're

4:23

trying to take a product to

4:25

market that can address this particular

4:27

use case. And when they go

4:29

and they spend months working on

4:31

it, and they take it to

4:33

the customer to see where they think of it,

4:36

they don't get the reaction that

4:38

they thought they were gonna get.

4:40

Angelo, what happened here? Other

4:43

than the trombones playing, wa-wa-wa,

4:46

like other than that,

4:48

you never know how

4:50

people will receive the

4:53

work that you do for them. No matter

4:55

the passion you put in, the

4:57

time you put in, the resources,

5:00

you feel like you, as Jenny

5:03

and his team, were solving

5:05

said problem. And for

5:07

the customer to come and say, nah,

5:10

we're not doing that. It

5:12

feels like your world is closing in

5:14

on you a little bit. Like, we

5:16

did all of this, and you

5:19

don't wanna use it? Now,

5:21

I don't know what the end game or the end

5:23

of the story is like, but

5:25

I know the team was crushed. Yeah, like,

5:27

Angelo, you would have a lot more frame

5:30

of reference than me, but

5:32

imagine putting in so much

5:34

work and time and energy

5:36

into building something like this, not just for a

5:39

client, but for a specific, like a persona or

5:41

a use case, something that you're going to kind

5:43

of use as maybe a

5:45

cornerstone for a specific part of

5:47

your business. From like a startup

5:50

culture perspective, I feel like

5:52

the response that Evgeny got definitely

5:54

wasn't the response that they were looking for. They were

5:56

looking for a kind of approval or excitement

5:59

About... Something that they could maybe hang their

6:01

hats on. As far as like a business

6:03

perspective is concerned, The. Good thing

6:06

about this an a lot

6:08

of situations like this. As

6:10

Jill Scott would say, everything

6:12

Eight for everybody. I'm sure

6:14

there are probably other customers.

6:16

Who. Thought this was.

6:19

The bee's knees. This.

6:21

Product that they delivered. it did

6:23

something for them for a use

6:25

case that they had and. I'm

6:27

sure someone was willing to take.

6:29

This on and try it out and

6:31

take advantage of all of this hard

6:34

work. I have my fingers crossed that

6:36

that's where the story is going because

6:38

just because it doesn't fit for one

6:40

customer or one. Persona or whatever.

6:42

Doesn't mean that others cannot

6:44

find value. And. We're going

6:46

to see what happens in a moment

6:49

but before we get there is less

6:51

have a question for you. Yes, I

6:53

imagine this happens more often than not.

6:56

Why would a customer reject a product

6:58

That kind of answer questions are kind

7:00

of like solve their problems especially with

7:02

me from trusted source Would reasons could

7:05

there be? Well, we don't know what's

7:07

going on behind the scenes. For them

7:09

right, things may be changing for them

7:12

they want. Their needs, their

7:14

internal use cases, their internal

7:16

customers. May have been.

7:19

The. Factor as to why this was

7:21

no longer something that they would

7:23

be interested in using sell. It

7:26

may have no impact on the

7:28

team and all of their hard

7:30

work. It could definitely be internal

7:32

pressures or things that are changing

7:34

internally. That's awesome. Yeah, sadly would

7:37

never be privy to. So again,

7:39

we've done an episode on where

7:41

you know projects tend to go

7:43

by the wayside and they're not

7:46

a priority. And time and money

7:48

is wasted and. through no fault

7:50

of evgeny and his team at all

7:52

we don't know what the customer was

7:54

dealing with at the moment so it

7:56

could very well have been great maybe

7:58

two or six months ago for

8:00

the customer, but as

8:03

their goal posts are moving, sometimes

8:05

they may not line up. I'm

8:08

going to bring back Evgeny because he's going

8:10

to tell us how it all went down.

8:13

Yes. When

8:15

we started to ask why, they started to

8:17

mention some points that we didn't see at

8:19

all. If the product that we had in

8:21

our mind actually made sense for them, because

8:24

it obviously made sense for us, but

8:26

once we go and we tell them

8:28

and we try to make them use

8:30

it, they have a lot of restrictions

8:33

and it was many, many, many things that

8:35

we didn't have in Stockholm. Someone

8:37

didn't do discovery. Hmm,

8:39

yes. And to your point earlier,

8:42

sometimes it's an internal thing so

8:44

discovery is kind of a daunting

8:46

task because you don't have that

8:48

perspective internal to the customer. With

8:51

software, it can be difficult to automate

8:53

or streamline processes, especially if you're dealing

8:55

with a customer. It takes

8:58

more than code. In some

9:00

industries, there's a lot of regulation,

9:02

a lot of compliance issues, both

9:04

with international laws or with local

9:07

practices. And also with integrations

9:09

with other software, there's security issues as

9:11

well. There's governance and training. How long

9:13

will it take for the customer to

9:15

learn a new system or a new

9:18

technology? Will there be any downtime during

9:20

the rollout? There's so many different things

9:22

to consider and so many factors at

9:24

work. What we learned is even

9:26

if we understood ourselves as

9:28

experts in the specific area, we

9:31

needed to approach the customer first

9:33

to ask them if the

9:35

idea works. Ultimately, it comes

9:37

down to communication. If the team had just

9:39

told the customer what they were thinking from

9:41

the beginning, it would have saved a lot

9:44

of heartache for everyone. As

9:47

Jenny suggests for other teams looking

9:49

at a similar situation, getting ideas

9:51

down on paper in kind of

9:54

a low fidelity simple way and

9:56

starting the conversation from a safe

9:58

space. I would- start with

10:00

a single PDF or a PowerPoint and make

10:02

a presentation to a couple of the clients

10:04

that you have sent trust to them, right?

10:06

The ones who would say to your face

10:08

what they truly think about the product. So

10:11

as an essay where we run into

10:14

a lot of conversations

10:16

with customers where they have a

10:18

problem and we

10:20

want to solve their problem,

10:23

but you always have to listen to the

10:25

customer. What problem are you

10:27

trying to solve? If the customer says,

10:30

when I flip this switch, it doesn't turn on. What

10:33

do you want to happen when it turns on,

10:35

right? If you're solving for the

10:38

switch that may miss the

10:41

ultimate end goal of

10:43

the issue that the customer is having,

10:45

it could be, well, this

10:47

switch kicks off this process

10:49

that does this thing that

10:51

queries this API that brings this

10:54

data back. Like, this is what we're solving

10:56

for. So it's not the switch, it's

10:59

all of the other things. So when

11:01

I said before, doing

11:03

discovery, asking these

11:05

really open-ended questions where the

11:07

customer has to explain to

11:09

you what they're trying

11:11

to do, what's the

11:14

end game? What do they want to

11:16

happen when that switch flips? And

11:19

what problem are they trying to

11:21

solve? We hear this in our

11:23

learnings as solution architects

11:26

all the time. We

11:28

want to solve your problem. Sometimes

11:30

you go straight to solving without

11:32

having asked the really important

11:35

question and you could be solving the

11:37

wrong problem and not even realize it. Right,

11:40

or maybe not even fully understand the problem.

11:42

Exactly. That really agrees with

11:44

a lot of the things that I've

11:47

read, especially about startups and about getting

11:49

into startup culture. Sometimes

11:52

teams build to solve problems that either

11:54

the customer doesn't have or they don't

11:56

see, or maybe they just don't have

11:59

that full understanding. understanding of what the

12:01

problem is. And they're really enthusiastic to

12:03

solve something that they don't quite understand.

12:05

Is that kind of like what you're saying, Angela?

12:08

Exactly. You want to help. You want to be

12:10

of service. You want a product that people are

12:12

going to love and use. But

12:14

again, if you're not talking to the

12:17

customer and figuring out their

12:19

problems, it doesn't matter what you're

12:21

doing. If you're not solving for their ex, you're

12:24

really wasting your time. Absolutely.

12:30

For the team at APM Hub, it

12:32

was a learning experience. There

12:35

was nothing left to do but put the work

12:37

aside and move on to newer things. But

12:39

a lot of effort had been put into that

12:41

product. And they didn't just want it to be

12:43

put on a scrap heap. We

12:45

changed our strategy because we converted it

12:47

into our open source project. So we

12:49

offer it for free, most of it.

12:52

The project is named UAP. It's open source.

12:55

You can check it out on GitHub if

12:57

you're curious about it. Tell me sent you.

13:01

In the end, trust is a

13:03

big component of why people adopt

13:06

new software and new habits. That

13:09

and the lesson learned from one

13:11

bad experience is what is Jenny

13:13

keeps top of mind. We

13:16

know that there is a roadmap that has to

13:18

be built. But first of all, we are trying

13:20

to build this community. And this

13:22

is a big thing because a developer, it's

13:24

not easy to make him trust because he

13:26

has the tool that he has that the

13:28

tools he used to and

13:30

to make him to try something new. It

13:33

has to come from somebody he knows. Somebody

13:35

who knows or a couple of them who

13:38

would recommend it strongly. And this

13:40

is what we're trying to do with this community and open

13:42

source project. Wow, the beauty of open

13:44

source. Yes. Next

13:47

up, the path to

13:50

success isn't straight. And

13:52

it's not without any bumps. We'll

13:55

hear from a person whose story

13:57

has a great ending from humble

13:59

beginnings. to one of the biggest names

14:01

in tech. Stay with us. Ship

14:08

Shadowman here with your daily traffic report.

14:10

We're seeing a major jam at the

14:12

intersection of dev and ops due to a

14:14

few new clouds rolling in. And if you're

14:17

on the way to vendor support, bad news.

14:19

They're rerouting all traffic until further notice. But

14:23

there's a reliable alternate path through Red Hat

14:25

where roadblocks never stand in the way of

14:27

where you need to go, from the data

14:29

center to the clouds to the edge. Start

14:32

your journey at redhat.com. Search

14:34

option. Our

14:40

next story takes us to the UK, where

14:43

young Kevin Evans was still in

14:45

high school. When

14:48

I was 14, I started working for a managed

14:50

service provider, right? As a side job when I was

14:52

in school. So for like six weeks at a time,

14:55

instead of playing basketball or soccer,

14:57

right? I'd be actually in there

15:00

building networks and deploying servers,

15:02

right? And at the time I just thought it

15:04

was like, oh, everyone does this. No, they don't.

15:07

I'm not that age either, right? That's funny.

15:10

Everybody does this. Yeah, deploying

15:12

servers. Yeah, like it's just

15:14

something that you do after

15:17

school every day. Every 14 year old.

15:19

I think that's so funny. Yeah,

15:22

definitely not a traditional

15:25

hobby choice for a 14 year old. But

15:29

Kevin always went against the grain

15:31

in a way. You

15:33

see, he came from a working class family in

15:35

the UK and he wasn't

15:37

actually the best student. I

15:40

was on the right fit for school and school was on the right

15:42

fit for me, right? So it was probably the

15:44

best thing my school did for me, right, was

15:46

put, maybe they saw it as me removing the

15:49

problem, right? And giving it to someone else. But

15:51

it was, to me,

15:54

it's the only thing I've ever been good at or

15:56

had an interest, right? So I

15:58

really thrived in it because I was... And I

16:01

didn't realize I was actually learning my craft that was

16:03

actually going to set me up for later life. So

16:07

we have this kid, 14 years

16:09

old, comes from pretty

16:11

humble at home environment. His

16:13

family doesn't work in tech. He's not doing

16:15

really well in school. Traditional

16:18

school is kind of not his thing. But

16:20

he gets his job, his side job, working,

16:23

what did he say? He was like a service

16:25

provider. So he was working for a managed service

16:27

provider. So what would that environment

16:29

be like for a 14-year-old working there, I

16:31

wonder? I think we put on

16:33

my 14-year-old hat. And

16:36

I get handed this task of

16:38

working for a small ISP somewhere

16:40

back home. They need

16:42

a couple of hands to do some work.

16:46

And at 14, was

16:48

he just racking and stacking? Was

16:50

he doing more of software? Or

16:53

was he more hardware? It really

16:55

doesn't matter because at that age,

16:58

maybe this is the first time that he's found

17:00

something that is like, oh my God, this is

17:02

so cool. Not even knowing what

17:05

the big picture of this project that he was

17:07

working on, but he knew that he was

17:09

interested and he knew that it piqued his

17:11

interest. And maybe

17:13

this was the first thing that ever spoke

17:16

to him or, you know, fed his soul

17:18

in such a way that school could never.

17:21

And I love the fact that maybe

17:23

he found his calling at

17:25

such a really young age because most of us

17:27

don't know what we want to do when we're 14.

17:31

That's exactly, I think, what Kevin would say if he

17:33

were sitting here with us right now. But

17:36

yeah, it feels like, you know, Kevin didn't

17:38

excel at formal school, but

17:41

he did have this kind of attraction

17:43

to technology from a very early age.

17:45

And when his high school life came

17:47

to an end, his formal schooling came

17:49

to an end. He did

17:52

seek vocational training instead of the

17:54

regular university track. He

17:56

went to a technical school and he

17:58

got certifications. in different technologies.

18:01

His parents were surprised. Like, you know, you

18:04

have to think about, he wasn't a very

18:06

good student. He was coming home, not very

18:08

good grades, not good school performance, not high

18:10

marks. They weren't expecting

18:12

this level of dedication from him. When

18:15

you find what you love, you're

18:17

going to see dedication. You're going to see

18:19

people put forth effort. It may

18:21

not be in the traditional realms that we see,

18:24

but when young folks find their passion, they're

18:26

always going to give it their all. That's

18:28

just how it is. And I've seen it

18:30

time and time again. That's right. Good for

18:32

him. Yeah. I

18:34

remember going back to my father and handing him the

18:37

certificate. He was like, did you print this out? Is

18:39

this real? Like, what's going on? Just

18:42

to give you an idea of what kind of kid.

18:44

Kevin was like, this is daddy's own certification. The

18:46

first thing his dad says, did you print this

18:49

out? Did you make this in Photoshop? I

18:52

think that's hilarious. It is.

18:54

And it speaks to just

18:56

how much maybe they

18:58

didn't expect him to excel

19:01

and shine in something and to actually

19:03

have proof of him accomplishing

19:05

something that he was so proud

19:08

that he had to hold it

19:10

up in front of dad. For

19:12

them, that was probably an awakening.

19:14

Wow, he found something that

19:16

he's good at. And now they

19:18

can get behind it because they see this

19:20

is where his passion is. And maybe

19:22

this is where they can actually actively

19:25

support him because they know this is

19:27

his thing. And all parents want to

19:29

see their kids excel. Definitely.

19:34

Kevin, in particular, was

19:36

really excited about learning operating

19:39

systems, which makes sense for

19:42

what's coming. But first, I'm

19:45

going to throw down the gauntlet. It's

19:47

time for a debate. Yikes. Put down

19:49

some debate noise. I don't know, like

19:51

a Singapore debate. OK,

19:56

formal education versus certifications.

20:00

All right, let's be real. Let's

20:02

lay it all out the table. What's

20:04

the deal? What's really the most advantageous

20:06

for people wanting to start a tech

20:08

career? I'm going to upset

20:10

a whole lot of people. It

20:13

depends. And I'll tell you

20:15

why it depends. There

20:17

are certain fields inside

20:20

of technology that will

20:22

require a formal education, that

20:24

will require higher level

20:26

mathematics and computer science

20:29

and data and things like that. That

20:32

is such a small subsection

20:34

of what technology is.

20:37

A bigger part of it,

20:39

you can learn on YouTube,

20:41

university, on all of

20:44

the online learning platforms, getting

20:46

certifications, joining communities where there's a

20:49

bunch of people coming together to

20:51

learn a thing. All

20:53

of these free tracks out

20:55

here, learn to cloud, learn Python,

20:57

learn DevOps, they're out here, doesn't

21:00

require you to spend a penny.

21:02

And if it does, it's very nominal,

21:04

right? So there are

21:07

some arms of technology that do

21:09

require that formal education. But

21:11

depending, if he's talking about racking

21:14

and stacking and installing operating systems

21:16

and managing systems, I don't

21:18

think you need a formal education for that. I think

21:21

what you need is this base understand.

21:23

First, you need the passion. That's important.

21:26

The rest of it will come. If that's where

21:28

you want to put your focus, you put your

21:30

heart into it, get the certs, learn the

21:32

OSs, learn what makes them sing.

21:34

And that's how you can build

21:37

a successful career and replace

21:39

operating systems with anything,

21:42

with whatever your passion is. So I'm

21:44

going to go with the age. Oh,

21:46

it depends. But I really do think

21:48

there's a lot of arms in technology

21:50

where you do not need to fork

21:52

out hundreds of thousands of dollars to

21:54

be successful. I agree. And

21:56

I feel like you said it a lot better

21:58

than I ever could. But I just

22:01

wanted to just kind of put that out there

22:03

because I know that a lot of our listeners

22:05

are making these decisions We're talking about them kind

22:07

of like objectively But there are people who are

22:09

listening who are making decisions between like should I

22:11

go for this certification? So that I learned this

22:13

should I red hat has their own training certifications

22:15

If you want to check that out Should I

22:18

go for that or they want to

22:20

go to a regular CS program or a

22:22

regular network admin program or anything?

22:24

And really the proper answer is

22:26

just like you said it depends

22:28

it depends on On

22:30

what you want to do and also just a

22:32

little bit of a shameless plug for our continuing

22:35

education episode that we just did a few Weeks

22:37

ago, you know, it's not like

22:39

a finish line. It's not a race that

22:41

has a specific ending, right? You can still

22:43

choose your own adventure or choose your

22:46

own path and put together both a

22:48

formal kind of education and also Certifications

22:51

that you kind of get at your own

22:53

pace Honestly, that looks a lot like the

22:55

people that I know personally, but again,

22:58

you're absolutely right It does depend and

23:00

you don't have to feel like you have to put yourself out a

23:03

Kidney and a mortgage in order to

23:05

get yourself on the right track That's

23:08

happening less and less nowadays like not

23:11

to say that it's gone away Yeah,

23:13

but know that there is a path

23:15

for you that won't break the bank

23:18

to move into this field It's

23:20

very welcoming and more and more folks

23:23

are putting out content that

23:25

they've used and they've learned and they've

23:27

compiled it and they're sharing it for

23:29

free or Creating courses

23:32

the world is our oyster at this point,

23:34

you know If there's something that you want

23:36

to learn it is out

23:38

there for the taking so absolutely good luck

23:41

to everybody out there That's on

23:43

this path of finding their career

23:45

or changing careers or trying to

23:47

upskill. Yeah, the time is yours.

23:49

Absolutely Absolutely And

23:53

speaking of time yeah at this

23:55

point of the story Kevin's training

23:57

program is coming to an end It

23:59

was time for him to get an actual job.

24:01

So now he's out of high school, out

24:03

of vocational training. And that's where

24:06

he is at the top of the episode

24:08

where you hear his voice for the first

24:10

time. He's feeling a lot

24:12

of pressure to make it all work.

24:14

And he's kind of uncertain of what

24:17

to do next. I

24:19

managed to get a job on a

24:21

help desk. And I

24:24

was basically, you know, troubleshooting servers,

24:27

that kind of thing, right? Amazing

24:29

networking. And that was about 2007, 2008. In

24:35

between then I had random jobs, right,

24:37

whatever I could do. Working at supermarkets,

24:39

that kind of thing, right? Okay,

24:42

I see where this is going. Do you? I

24:45

don't know. I'm remembering 2007, 2008. There's a lot happening back

24:47

then. So where's his story going?

24:54

We talked about this at length in

24:56

our tech support episode from last

24:58

year. Kevin's taking the same

25:00

track that a lot of technologists find

25:03

themselves in. They're doing tech support. They're

25:05

on the help desk. It all seems

25:07

legit. Everything seems like it's

25:09

going well. But Angela, you

25:11

kind of caught it, the dates that are

25:14

involved, 2008. And we

25:16

all know what's coming. Yes. Then

25:20

global recession happened.

25:22

It affected absolutely

25:24

everybody on the planet, right, in some

25:26

way. And it was really

25:29

deep. And it was really fast. And

25:32

I lost my job. I got laid off.

25:35

So yeah, here we are in 2008. And

25:38

the world in 2008, especially for

25:40

anyone working in tech or basically

25:42

any industry at that time,

25:44

at that point, yeah, kind of got hit

25:46

with quite a challenge, quite a hit from

25:49

out of nowhere. So

25:51

and he was hit

25:53

hard, just like so many other people like

25:56

him who were starting their careers at that

25:58

time. for 200

26:00

job interviews. But

26:02

at the time, you're just like, I'm never gonna get a job.

26:06

Oh, yeah. Why

26:08

does his story sound like

26:10

people's story today? Yeah,

26:13

it's eerily familiar. This

26:15

sounds familiar, this feels

26:17

familiar. We're at a time

26:19

right now where things are so

26:22

uncertain and I'm

26:24

hearing him and I can hear it in his voice and

26:27

folks are getting desperate. They were desperate

26:29

back then, people are desperate

26:31

now, trying to get that job

26:34

and having tons and

26:36

tons of interviews and no callbacks

26:38

seems to be happening to

26:40

a lot of folks right now. Definitely.

26:43

Throwing back again to the episode

26:45

we did on economic uncertainty, it felt

26:48

like it was so easy

26:50

back then to lose hope and

26:52

to feel like you were playing

26:54

a game that the rules were changing

26:56

as you were playing it. But

26:59

for Kevin, he had very

27:01

specific goals, right? He wanted

27:04

his career to take him outside of the UK.

27:07

He wanted to work on what he was

27:09

passionate about. So he didn't

27:11

give up. It was like,

27:14

what do I do next, right? So I went back

27:16

to the supermarket, I had a job in and

27:20

I had a job in a bar and

27:22

job in another retail store. I

27:25

didn't realize, but having that

27:27

perseverance would actually

27:29

become one of my secret powers later on. Sounds

27:32

very familiar, too familiar for your

27:35

humble producer, but

27:38

it was that perseverance that

27:40

would land Kevin in his current role as

27:43

a cloud solutions architect at Microsoft.

27:47

It took a lot of work, multiple

27:50

attempts, multiple rejections, even

27:52

from Microsoft. And

27:54

like I said at the top of the episode, it

27:57

wasn't a smooth journey. Looking

27:59

back, Heaven knows how many other

28:01

people are out there with stories like this,

28:03

back from 2008 and

28:05

even today. That's

28:07

why you'll find him speaking, streaming,

28:09

and doing podcasts even,

28:12

trying to educate people on new

28:14

trends and developments in the industry.

28:17

It's his way of paying it forward, giving

28:19

people the help he wished he had

28:22

back then. When I started in

28:24

the industry, I had a lot of older senior

28:26

people that were like, go and read the book.

28:29

Which book? I'm not going to tell you which book it is, but

28:31

go and read the book. We've all

28:33

been there, right? So I'm like, this

28:35

is the book you need to read. By the way,

28:37

I took all the good bits out of it and this is

28:40

what you need to know, right? Confise it down. So

28:42

I'm really big on mentorship

28:44

and giving back as well. I just feel like it's

28:46

something that everyone can do and it doesn't cost anything.

28:49

Oh, he's so right. I know. Good

28:51

for him. I love the

28:53

fact that he knew that

28:56

it was his responsibility to

28:58

pay it forward, making the

29:00

path easier for folks that

29:03

are coming behind him and for those folks

29:05

not to lose hope. So

29:07

kudos to Kevin for all of his hard

29:10

work. I know how important it is right

29:12

now for people who are listening to hear a success

29:14

story like Kevin's. When

29:17

I said goodbye to him, I left

29:19

it off by asking what he thought of

29:21

his own story, his own career

29:24

journey. This is what he had to say.

29:26

I looked at every section of my career where it

29:29

hasn't worked out and it hasn't worked out a lot,

29:31

right? Because the one thing I get asked is, like,

29:33

it seems like it's been amazing for you. It's not.

29:36

It's been a car crash sometimes, right? That's why I'm looking at it.

29:38

Always consider that, right? There's always a silver lining as opposed

29:40

to what I'm trying to say. A

29:44

feel-good story. Yeah. The

29:46

one that I think is really needed right now, you know? Yeah,

29:49

I do. This was very timely,

29:51

Kim. Thanks for putting this together. I

29:53

think people need to hear this and

29:55

feel it like I'm feeling it. It

29:58

felt familiar. the kind

30:01

of despair and you're taking any

30:03

job. You have to keep a roof over

30:05

your head and food in your stomach

30:07

so you'll do what needs doing. But

30:09

you know where your craft lies and you

30:12

want to work your craft. And it's

30:14

not outside of the realm of possibility that

30:16

it will be hard to

30:18

get back on that horse and start

30:21

riding again and getting back

30:23

out there and being successful in your

30:25

craft. It's not easy.

30:27

There's always going to be a

30:29

silver lining. So I'm glad he said that because

30:32

folks should not give up. Absolutely. For

30:35

Evgeny, his team situation was a

30:37

learning opportunity. It was

30:40

one that kind of set him and

30:42

his company up for success, especially with a

30:44

new path and open source. For

30:46

Kevin, it wasn't so much a mistake or

30:48

a misstep as it was bad timing, but

30:51

he kept going and kept doing

30:53

what he loved. And it served him well

30:55

in the end. Today, both

30:58

of these professionals are giving back in

31:00

their own ways. I think

31:02

what this says about disasters

31:05

and big blunders can

31:08

seem insurmountable and really

31:10

painful when

31:13

they're close up. But giving

31:15

it the proper time, the

31:17

proper space, and the proper

31:19

perspective can let you move

31:21

forward and succeed and give

31:23

you a whole new outlook on what's

31:26

important and where your role really is

31:28

and what your path can truly be.

31:31

Don't give up. That's right. That's all you can

31:33

tell people. Keep your head up, as they say.

31:35

Yes. Yes, indeed. I

31:40

really enjoyed hearing these two

31:43

stories. We feel like

31:45

sometimes that our backs are against the wall

31:47

and things are kind of against us. But

31:50

as you can see, sometimes

31:52

there is a silver lining.

31:54

Most times, there's going to be a

31:56

silver lining. Perseverance matters.

32:00

The course matters. Being

32:02

true to yourself, matters

32:04

just keep doing. The

32:07

same, don't give up again

32:09

as we're hearing all's well.

32:11

that ends well and. I.

32:13

Just want folks to take that away

32:15

from this episode and tell us your

32:18

story. We would love to hear what

32:20

you've gone through that may not have

32:22

started out so well as you hit

32:24

a little road bomb. We want to

32:27

hear it so set us up on

32:29

social media at Red Hat. Use the

32:31

hashtag compiler podcast. I know you see

32:33

yourself in this story somewhere so definitely

32:36

share it with us because we would

32:38

love to hear it. In

32:42

that does it for today's episode. Of

32:45

compiler. Today's episode was

32:47

produced by Kim Long Johan

32:49

Philippines and Caroline. Astoria

32:52

lot what's right for this out

32:54

her and she said though and

32:56

read the book and I was

32:58

like which but we've all been

33:00

there right amp like ours are.

33:02

Audio engineer is Christie Chance. Or

33:04

theme song was composed. By Mary

33:06

and Ceta are audio team

33:09

includes Brent Summer know the

33:11

Day, Stephanie Wonderland make the

33:13

Sir Nick from N Williamson,

33:15

Kerry King, Seared Oats, Rachel

33:17

or itself doesn't help my

33:19

constant ocean. Macys Teach Johnson

33:21

of stability and. The marvelous

33:23

Mira Zero. Yes,

33:26

If you like today's episode, please

33:28

follow the shell right to sell.

33:30

Leave us with you. Let us

33:32

know what you think and most

33:34

important share a family. You know

33:36

it really does help to show.

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Right to carry body. until next.

33:41

Until next time see us.