0:00

I had to just lean on

0:02

the true undisputed world champion of

0:05

decision making. My gut, my

0:08

gut, you know, was pretty much just like,

0:10

this doesn't sound right at all. People

0:15

share all sorts of advice. How

0:17

to handle a technical issue, how to

0:19

navigate a new environment, what's the right

0:21

career move. Not all of it is

0:23

good advice. Not bad advice

0:26

could be coming from good intentions or

0:28

from past experiences that just don't apply.

0:31

Sometimes, you have enough experience yourself to

0:33

trust your gut when it tells you

0:35

that something's off. But

0:37

when you're facing a new situation,

0:39

it's harder to make that call,

0:41

especially when the results have lasting

0:44

consequences. It's something I've

0:46

thought about because it's easily one decision

0:48

could change your whole

0:50

trajectory, you know, in life,

0:52

career, anything. When

0:56

taking or ignoring advice can lead to

0:58

vastly different outcomes, how can we judge

1:00

the relevance of the advice being offered

1:02

to us? How do we

1:05

know which choice leads to prosperity and

1:07

which could lead to stagnation or

1:09

even ruin? And how do we

1:11

know that the people pointing the way have any

1:13

idea what they're talking about? We

1:16

hear from a couple of guests who

1:18

wrestled with important decisions and the voices

1:20

of authority who almost led them astray.

1:26

This is Compiler, an original

1:28

podcast from Red Hat. I'm

1:30

Angela Andrews. And I'm

1:32

Johan Philippine. We go beyond

1:35

the buzzwords and jargon and simplify

1:37

tech topics. We're sharing

1:39

stories from industry veterans about how they

1:41

found their footing in the tech industry.

1:44

Today, we're hearing about taking advice

1:47

with an unhealthy amount of salt.

1:52

So today we're talking about bad advice.

1:55

Angela, do you remember the

1:57

worst advice anyone's ever given you?

2:00

Yes. I don't know if it's

2:02

the worst because there's been

2:04

a lot of worst but this

2:06

one sticks out in my mind

2:09

where someone's telling me,

2:12

just be a little less you. To

2:15

put on this facade because

2:17

I'm usually very upbeat, happy-go-lucky

2:20

and a little chatty, and

2:23

to have someone tell you to turn

2:25

your shine down a little bit. Don't

2:28

ever let someone tell you to do

2:30

that because if someone

2:33

can't take your shine, that sounds

2:35

like a them problem, not a

2:37

you problem. I

2:39

was very young, it forced me

2:41

to question myself. I

2:44

wish somebody would tell me that now.

2:46

I could never abide by someone saying

2:48

something like that because it's just terrible,

2:51

terrible advice. You

2:53

know that now in hindsight, but you were

2:55

pretty young back then. How did you react

2:57

and what did you end up doing? My

3:00

immediate reaction was not the best,

3:02

but thank goodness it was all

3:04

internal. So hopefully my face didn't

3:06

give too much away. But

3:09

I was embarrassed and I was

3:12

unsure. It was

3:14

someone that you trust in the position

3:16

of authority and they're telling you this

3:19

because they want things to look a

3:21

certain way. Apparently me

3:23

and my authentic state was not

3:25

the way. I was

3:28

ashamed of that because I thought I was

3:30

awesome, but apparently not. Not

3:32

everyone thinks that. So it did

3:35

bother me for quite some time, but

3:38

this version of Angela knows that that's

3:40

just terrible advice and I would never

3:42

change who I am for anybody. Well,

3:45

we love having you on just the way

3:47

you are. Thank you. And we're going to

3:49

hear a lot of that same kind of

3:52

sentiment as the episode goes on. So let's

3:54

dive into it. Buckle up. Our

3:58

gutsy guest at the top of the show. is

4:00

Ryan Roberts. He's an

4:02

infrastructure engineer at JPMorgan Chase, and

4:05

over the years he's honed his

4:07

ability to weigh the worthiness of

4:09

the advice that comes his way. He

4:11

grew up learning the foundations of tech from

4:13

his parents, which proved to be a leg

4:15

up during his first IT internship. But

4:18

he didn't know much about Linux at the time. One

4:21

day I went to my then manager, I was just like,

4:23

hey, is there any way I can get a little bit

4:25

more hands on? Manager shot that

4:27

down, unfortunately. He said, oh, you can

4:29

just read the documentation. That'll

4:31

just be enough. I was a bit defeated

4:33

because I know tech, you know, even though

4:35

I wasn't in the career for long, I

4:38

knew that you really get that reinforcement

4:40

when you get the hands on. Angela,

4:44

I saw your face immediately scrunch up

4:46

upon hearing that. Bad advice, right? Just

4:48

read the docs. You know

4:50

what? If I could count the

4:52

times I've heard someone say RTFM

4:54

to me, I would really blow

4:56

the roof off of this house.

4:59

I'll just read the documentation. If

5:02

that were sufficient, we wouldn't

5:04

have people calling for tech support.

5:06

We wouldn't have people posting on,

5:08

you know, Stack Overflow. Sometimes

5:11

that is not sufficient.

5:13

And to give someone

5:15

such a dismissive response

5:18

is just terrible. It's just terrible.

5:21

Well, I figured we'd get started with some

5:23

of the most easily spotted kind of terrible

5:25

device you can get in this industry. Yikes.

5:28

Yeah. Just like you said, just read

5:30

the docs. It's not a recipe for

5:32

mastery of any technology. Now, don't get

5:34

it wrong. We love documentation on this

5:37

show. It's great. It makes a

5:39

big difference. But even

5:41

back then, Ryan knew that reading

5:44

the documentation wouldn't be enough to really

5:46

learn the technology that he wanted to.

5:49

Like this just seems a bit

5:51

counterintuitive. I know documentation is important,

5:54

but unless you're able to

5:56

apply what you learn, it might just kind

5:58

of turn into stale memory. And being

6:01

able to apply what you learn

6:03

shows you how it's kind of

6:05

translated from theory into practice, allows

6:08

you to get more comfortable, get the muscle

6:10

memory, get the true memory of being able

6:12

to do it, and then how to improve

6:14

it. You'll learn, okay, this is

6:17

how the book taught me. Now I can

6:19

see how I can optimize it for my use. So

6:23

that hands-on is truly important

6:25

and kind of getting shot down and just

6:27

kind of feeling around my gut and she's

6:29

like, you know, this is just saying right, this is

6:31

not how it should be and gut don't

6:33

lie. I like

6:36

that. Gut don't lie. Always

6:38

trust your gut. Yeah, without that

6:40

hands-on experience to really reinforce the

6:42

lessons, documentation alone, it's only going

6:44

to get you so far. I

6:46

agree. Now

6:49

for this piece of advice, Ryan

6:51

was wise enough to know that

6:53

his manager's response wasn't very useful,

6:56

to put it politely. But

6:58

he didn't really know what to do next. Luckily

7:01

for him, there was someone in the

7:03

office who was willing to actually teach

7:06

an intern some new skills. So

7:09

he overheard that conversation, you know, pulled me to the

7:11

side. He was like, hey, you want to sit with

7:13

me for a little bit more time and I can

7:15

really show you the ropes to get you some more

7:17

hands-on experience in Linux, share with you

7:19

some resources. And I was primed

7:21

and ready to go. I was just like, let's do it. I

7:24

like where this is going. Those

7:26

conversations with his newfound mentor and the

7:28

skills he learned influenced the course of

7:30

his career. He changed

7:32

from a game development degree to one

7:35

in IT. Just

7:37

read the docs wouldn't take him down the

7:39

Linux brick road. And he

7:41

probably wouldn't have made that big of a

7:43

change in his major and future career. Ryan

7:49

shared another story about receiving bad

7:51

advice. This time he

7:53

was fresh out of college and working for

7:55

a company that split the new hires into

7:58

projects that needed help. But

8:00

this time, his gut wasn't as much help

8:02

to him. If

8:04

you've been listening to this show in the past

8:06

few months, this is gonna sound familiar. And

8:09

it's like the minute you start telling people what

8:11

you do, they're just kind of bringing up all

8:13

the horror stories. It's like, oh,

8:16

that technology is going away and

8:18

you don't wanna be there when that

8:20

ship sails. And hearing that from the

8:22

peers and hearing that from the people

8:25

running the program, it

8:27

definitely had me a little concerned.

8:30

Should I be looking to a dip and

8:32

maybe lean into something that's a bit more

8:35

modern, might have a bit more traction to

8:38

it, might have a bit more longevity to

8:40

it. It was definitely like

8:42

a fight or flight mode where it's just like,

8:44

all right, I'm early on. I need to make

8:46

some moves here to begin to establish and continue

8:48

to build up on my career. Where

8:51

have we heard this before? Hmm. Sounds

8:55

familiar. Yeah, avoid

8:57

legacy technology like it's the plague is

9:00

some of that super common advice

9:02

that you hear all the time. You

9:05

hear it everywhere. So many people

9:07

repeat it. And when so

9:09

many people have such strong and consistent

9:11

opinions about something, it's tough to know

9:13

whether it's right. Ryan's gut

9:15

didn't have any answers for him, but

9:18

the people working on legacy systems did.

9:20

Not best they did. But

9:23

talking with the people in that legacy

9:25

area, hearing what they're doing,

9:28

seeing what's coming down the line, it

9:31

really started to put my mind

9:33

at ease. Like, okay, this platform

9:35

isn't becoming stagnant. Hopefully

9:38

that's not new information for our

9:41

listeners. We just spent seven

9:43

episodes trying to counter this particular brand

9:45

of bad advice. Listen,

9:47

it's okay to not want to work

9:49

on legacy technology. If that's not your

9:51

jam, go dance to another tune. But

9:54

don't discount an option based on

9:56

bad information. I'm glad that

9:59

Ryan, despite... being in the throes

10:01

of his fight-or-flight response, had the wherewithal

10:03

to continue to ask questions and hear

10:05

multiple points of view, even

10:08

in the face of overwhelmingly consistent

10:10

opinion. Sometimes

10:12

advice is popular because it's right and

10:14

rooted in truth. But don't

10:17

assume that the advice that you

10:19

hear everywhere is correct just because

10:21

it's popular. It's hard to know for

10:23

sure unless you've heard and considered the

10:25

consequences of both choices. That's

10:27

easier said than done. While

10:29

I hope that our listeners would, at this

10:31

point, be able to immediately spot and discount

10:34

this kind of advice, I

10:36

also understand why it would make a

10:38

lot of people uneasy about their assignments.

10:41

Ryan was considering his options and this

10:43

time he didn't have that same gut

10:46

reaction to lean on. Yeah,

10:49

this one I definitely mulled it over a

10:51

little bit more, but I think

10:53

the key thing was there wasn't that

10:56

same brick wall that I experienced in

10:58

the past where it was

11:00

just like, you know, okay, this is somebody from

11:02

the outside kind of telling me, hey,

11:04

you shouldn't do this. But

11:06

then there was opportunities for me on

11:08

the inside to still utilize

11:11

some of the skill set that

11:13

I just learned through school and

11:15

through orientation and training, where it

11:17

was just like, all right, you

11:19

know, I can at least contribute what I

11:21

know now. Being presented

11:24

with a choice rather than having his

11:26

manager completely shut him down left

11:28

him without a clear gut reaction. While

11:31

there's nothing like a stubborn streak

11:33

to make you question everything, that

11:35

same approach is just as useful

11:37

in ambiguous situations too. A

11:40

healthy dose of skepticism will help you assess

11:42

the advice you get, regardless

11:44

of where it's coming from. After

11:47

the break, we're going to hear from a

11:49

guest who is counseled to forego an exciting

11:51

opportunity. pretty

12:00

impressive. But that wasn't his

12:03

original career path. In

12:05

high school, Luis had an internship for

12:07

Universal Studios working on their IT team.

12:10

There were a lot of

12:12

odd jobs to do and he picked up a few

12:14

things about working with computers. But

12:16

that was the extent of his IT education.

12:19

Years later, he had a job in facilities

12:21

doing maintenance. He'd help people out with their

12:23

computer issues when he could. The

12:26

IT team took notice and asked him

12:28

if he'd be interested in joining their

12:30

team, even without a

12:32

traditional IT education. Yeah,

12:34

I kind of took it like, oh yeah,

12:36

they're just asking to kind of be cool

12:38

or like yank my chain or something. Never

12:41

think that the opportunity would come up for

12:43

somebody that has no experience in this field.

12:46

They weren't playing a mean joke on him

12:48

or leading him on. After

12:50

a while, a position actually opened up

12:53

and they offered it to him. For

12:55

me, there was no question. This was like

12:57

a totally different career path. I

12:59

felt like this was a better career path than what I

13:01

was on at the moment. Just think about

13:03

what would have happened had he

13:06

not taken their advice. He

13:08

was just doing his job. You know,

13:10

he didn't have a traditional IT education

13:14

and someone saw something in him. I

13:18

always wonder about moments like

13:20

that. When people just recognize

13:22

how amazing you are, that

13:24

should happen more. We should take notice

13:26

to the folks around us and see

13:28

what they're capable of. Well, that's

13:30

the thing, right? Is that this kind

13:33

of chance doesn't happen very often, right?

13:35

Most of the time, employers have this

13:37

requirement for some sort of education to

13:39

hire for a technical position. This

13:41

is true. Yeah. And I do love

13:44

the fact if you've been watching the

13:46

news recently, more and more employers are

13:49

moving away from the

13:51

traditional four-year degree requirement

13:53

for jobs, especially in

13:55

technology. We're in a new phase

13:57

here and I'm interested in seeing

14:00

A lot of amazing people finally get their

14:02

chance. Yeah, this should be fun.

14:05

Everybody pay attention You know somebody

14:07

out there like that who may just not

14:09

have that little piece of paper But

14:12

always be willing to give folks like

14:14

that a chance. You'd be

14:16

surprised at what you end up with Well

14:20

Louise was Enthusiastic

14:22

he was excited and after

14:25

he agreed to take the position He

14:27

shared the news with some trusted friends and

14:30

asked what they thought about it Unfortunately,

14:32

not everyone in his life shared

14:34

his enthusiasm for the opportunity I

14:37

did get feedback from I would

14:40

say someone I respected that it might not be

14:42

the best move for me Because

14:44

I didn't have the experience. I Don't

14:48

know what to say right now Say

14:51

right now. I mean because he said this was someone

14:53

that He respected

14:55

and Getting

14:58

advice from someone like that that

15:00

goes against everything that you feel

15:02

is right Can definitely

15:05

be a downer? Oh, yeah What

15:07

about the time when we

15:09

didn't have experience and when you went into

15:12

certain fields? You may have been an apprentice

15:14

and you learned from the people around you

15:17

to do your craft Experience

15:19

isn't always the designation of

15:22

someone doing a really good job You

15:25

understand? I mean, I understand that can be

15:27

an issue in some scenarios But

15:30

in this particular scenario What

15:32

better way to learn than from people that

15:34

are already doing the job? And

15:36

I feel like even with experience anytime you

15:38

start a new job, you have to learn

15:41

a bunch of new things. Anyways That

15:43

lack of experience can be a major blocker

15:46

But it's usually the hiring team

15:48

who make that kind of a judgment call

15:51

just like you said It couldn't have

15:53

been easy to hear from a trusted

15:55

advisor to turn down the opportunity But

15:58

in their own way this person was trying to

16:00

look out for Luis. You've never done

16:02

that before and that seems like a very complicated

16:05

career. Or like it

16:08

requires a lot of experience. And I was like,

16:10

but they said that they're there to help me.

16:12

It was like, well, are you

16:14

sure you're making the right call because it

16:16

would not be great for you to start

16:19

that and just fail and then you're starting

16:21

from nothing. They were worried

16:23

that Luis wouldn't succeed. Failing

16:25

and starting from nothing isn't something he

16:28

was seriously worried about until after hearing

16:30

that advice. It went from

16:32

being an easy gut decision to

16:35

a tough one. I

16:37

mean, it made me scared because I was like, am

16:40

I making the right call? Like am I just taking

16:42

this opportunity and giving up this other opportunity that may

16:44

be what I'm meant to do? And

16:46

that doubt can be really tough

16:49

to deal with, especially when it's

16:51

instilled when asking for advice. Again,

16:53

he went from trusting his gut to

16:56

reconsidering his decision. But rather than

16:58

settling for that one single

17:00

opinion, he sought out more

17:02

information. Good for him. Once

17:04

I got that, like there was definitely doubt. I

17:06

definitely sat down and was like, well, am I

17:09

making the right call? And that's

17:11

why I went to them and were like,

17:13

well, what if things don't work out?

17:16

Like what am I going to do then? And they were

17:18

like, no, it's going to work out. Like we're going to

17:20

show you what you need to know and we're going to

17:22

make sure that you succeed. They

17:24

promised to answer his questions, to show him

17:26

the ropes and to help him figure out

17:29

any issues he might run into. And

17:31

they delivered on those promises. After

17:34

a few weeks in his new position, he grew

17:36

confident that he had made the right call. Now

17:39

he's the director of IT and security

17:41

for a startup and that

17:43

group of technologists who took him under their wing.

17:45

Though they've all moved on, they still talk and

17:48

help each other out. They still

17:50

share advice and work out solutions to

17:52

novel problems together. But now he's able

17:54

to give back, too. That's

17:56

what it's all about. Someone helped him

17:58

get here. And he is

18:01

returning the favor. Thanks

18:05

to this experience, Luis learned an

18:07

important lesson. Not to doubt

18:09

myself. That was also something that

18:12

another good friend of mine emphasized because

18:15

I guess at the time they saw a lot more in me

18:17

than I saw in myself. And yeah, like

18:19

at the time I was like, oh, there's, there's no way

18:21

I'm going to get past like just being a manager. Even

18:24

though that opportunity worked out and

18:27

Luis thrived in his new job, he

18:29

still had doubts about his ability to progress.

18:32

But that inner voice wasn't the only voice

18:34

he was hearing. And

18:37

she was like, no, you could definitely

18:39

become way more than that. Like a

18:41

director, maybe even a VP. And

18:43

I was like, oh yeah, right. It's funny

18:45

because at GumGum, when we started talking about the

18:47

possibility of stepping up to the director role, that

18:50

was like one of the first conversations I thought

18:52

of. Because I was like, there's no way that

18:54

I'm going to get an opportunity

18:56

like that. And when those

18:58

conversations started happening, it's like, oh wow. Like

19:01

she saw this like way back

19:03

then. Isn't

19:06

it interesting how doubt is

19:08

definitely the enemy of confidence

19:10

and self assurance? I

19:12

mean, it sounds like he really

19:15

questioned his abilities, but again,

19:17

someone saw something in him and

19:20

that made all the difference. It's

19:23

interesting how that little seed

19:25

of doubt that was planted with

19:28

that first job so long ago still

19:31

began to haunt him years later

19:33

as he was actually

19:35

doing the job. And people were

19:37

presenting him with opportunities and he

19:39

still felt as if

19:42

he couldn't do this or

19:44

questioning if this was the right decision

19:46

for him. And I'm

19:48

glad it sounds like he's made

19:50

the right decision because people saw

19:52

his potential and they

19:54

didn't let up. I'm glad he managed to

19:57

overcome the doubt that was instilled by the

19:59

initial bad advice. and that he

20:01

moved ahead by listening to the positive

20:04

supporters in his life. A

20:09

lot of bad advice we heard for this

20:11

episode was about career choices, but

20:14

the lessons we can pull from these stories

20:16

apply to all sorts of advice you hear, how

20:18

to handle a delicate situation or make

20:20

a difficult choice. Take all

20:23

the options with a handful of salt

20:25

and hold on to the people who

20:27

help you out along the way, around

20:29

those barriers and those roadblocks that you're

20:31

told can't be overcome. We're

20:34

going to bring Ryan back from the top of

20:36

the episode to reemphasize a point from the opening.

20:39

It's something I've thought about because it's

20:41

easily one decision could change

20:43

your whole trajectory in life,

20:46

career, anything. Seeking

20:49

out advice is important. It

20:51

isn't easy to navigate the decisions in life

20:53

on your own, and hearing

20:55

from the people who've been there can

20:57

help show you the way and the

20:59

potential consequences of your options, positive and

21:02

negative. It's up to you to decide

21:04

who's information to trust. One

21:08

decision can change your trajectory. That's what he

21:10

said. And I'm going to be

21:12

perfectly honest with you. When

21:14

the opportunity to join Red Hat

21:17

came up three years ago, almost

21:19

four years now, I

21:21

really doubted that I could

21:23

do this job. I even said

21:25

it. I can't do this. This isn't what I

21:28

do. And I was

21:30

so adamant about it, but someone

21:32

believed in me so wholeheartedly from

21:35

watching me work and seeing my

21:37

capabilities. And I'm

21:39

telling you, doubt will

21:41

eat you up. But it's nice

21:43

when people are there to kind of

21:46

pull you along and give you the

21:48

good advice. They've seen what you could

21:50

do, and I'm sure they wouldn't be

21:52

telling you that if they didn't believe

21:54

it to be true. So my

21:57

trajectory would be altogether different.

21:59

had I not quelled

22:02

the whispers of doubt and

22:04

just gone for it. So thank you. And

22:06

those people know just who they are. So

22:08

I thank you. And I've been having a

22:11

great time here ever since. Next

22:15

time on Compiler, we hear stories

22:17

from people who've had unorthodox entries

22:19

into the tech industry. Because

22:21

just like Luis, you don't necessarily need

22:23

a degree or a bootcamp to get

22:25

your foot through that door. Say

22:28

that for the people in the

22:30

cheap seats, Yohan. Say that again.

22:33

Shout out to Luis. Shout

22:35

out to Ryan for bringing these

22:37

amazing stories to us, for

22:40

us to listen to and possibly

22:42

see ourselves in. What

22:45

did you think about this episode? We would

22:47

love to hear your thoughts. Have

22:49

you ever doubted any advice that

22:52

someone gave you? Did you

22:54

take advice and it wasn't the best

22:56

advice? How did you deal with that?

22:58

We want to hear what you thought

23:00

about this episode. Hit us up on

23:02

our socials, at Red Hat.

23:04

Don't forget to use the hashtag

23:06

Compiler Podcast. We really want

23:09

to hear more of these stories. And

23:14

that does it for this episode of Compiler.

23:17

Today's episode was produced by

23:19

Yohan Philippine, Kim Wong,

23:21

and Caroline Craighead. Victoria

23:23

Lawton always gives the best

23:25

advice. Our audio engineer

23:27

is Kristy Chan. Special

23:29

thanks to Brittany Dugan. Our theme

23:31

song was composed by Marian Chetta.

23:34

Our audio team includes Brent Simino,

23:37

Lee Day, Stephanie Wunderlich,

23:39

Mike Esser, Nick Burns,

23:42

Aaron Williamson, Karen King, Jared

23:45

Oates, Rachel Ertel, Devin

23:48

Pope, Mike Compton, Ocean

23:50

Matthews, Paige Johnson, Alex

23:53

Trebulzi, and Mira Cyril. If

23:56

you like today's episode, please follow

23:58

the show. Rate the show. leave

24:00

us a review. We would love that

24:02

feedback. And share it with someone you

24:05

know. It definitely helps the show and

24:08

it gets the word out there about our

24:10

little compiler. Bye-bye everyone.

24:12

Take care. Until next

24:14

time. Alright. Sweet.