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1:58

Hi, my name is David Ayala. And

2:00

I feel... winning-est

2:05

about being Conan O'Brien's friend. Winning-est. Yeah. You

2:07

win. You beat everyone. I've just always wanted

2:09

to use that word in the sentence. Hey

2:30

there. Welcome

2:35

to Conan O'Brien. Needs a friend? I

2:38

don't know why you always laugh at the intro. We

2:40

always look at each other. We do. Matt,

2:42

Gorley. Just between me and Gorle. Nice to have you here.

2:45

And Sona, you are, I

2:47

guess, a necessity. Oh, what?

2:49

No. Thank you? Come on. Is it a

2:51

thank you? I love you. I love you

2:53

too, but, you know, there's nicer things to

2:55

say. I'm not sure there are. OK.

2:57

It's a wonderful day out there. It is.

3:00

I just... You know,

3:02

you guys are always telling me, oh, don't think

3:04

first about what to say, Conan. Just start talking.

3:06

And then I do, and you say I got

3:08

nothing. But the weather is like lowest common

3:10

denominator. But it's also fun when you don't

3:12

have anything. It is. Because we get to pounce on you.

3:14

OK, that's good. Because it's also so against... You're

3:16

such a preparer. You like being prepared

3:18

for things? Yes, I do. And so this, I

3:20

think, takes you outside your comfort zone. And I

3:23

like that. Yeah, me too. Well, I was

3:25

walking down the street. OK, this is boring.

3:30

It's nice. I enjoy this neighborhood a lot. A

3:32

lot of young people, and they shout at me out their windows, which

3:36

is nice. Yeah. And it just kind of

3:38

makes me feel like, hey, I'm living in a nice little world

3:40

where people shout out their windows at me. It's

3:43

usually, you know, drop dead or... OK.

3:45

Yeah. Do you walk... Murderer. I

3:47

get murderer a lot. Do you walk so people will recognize

3:49

you? I'm wearing

3:51

a shirt that says, I am Conan O'Brien. And

3:54

there's an arrow going up to my head. You

3:56

have one of those, like, statue of love statue

3:59

of liberty. tax boards that you just

4:01

twirl around that says Conan on. I'm a

4:03

sign flipper. Yeah. Spinner. I'm a sign flipper.

4:05

Spinner, that's right. Did a

4:07

remote, a sign, you know, I'm

4:10

having a lot of remotes out there and over

4:12

the years people have said, oh, I really like

4:14

the remotes you do. Not all of them made

4:16

it. Oh yeah. To public viewership. This one didn't.

4:18

Yeah, we did a sign spinning remote. See, look, we

4:20

found something. Don't get excited yet. This is

4:22

great. But I'm gonna call him

4:24

out. Matt O'Brien, one of our writers,

4:27

I think was on this remote. And he said, oh,

4:29

this will be great. We got some sign spinners. And

4:31

he had us shoot it in an empty backlot at

4:34

Warner Brothers. And I immediately sensed

4:36

this is a comedy vacuum. Nothing.

4:38

There's no one to bounce off of here.

4:40

There's like a sign spinning guy, but he's

4:42

just pretty serious about it. He occasionally made

4:44

puns about sign spinning and I couldn't do

4:46

it. And the remote was going nowhere. And

4:48

then I looked up and I saw vultures

4:51

circling. Oh no. Why did you guys do

4:53

it on the street corner? There's a kind

4:55

of vulture that circles when it knows a

4:57

remote is going down. And

4:59

if you're in my line of business, it strikes

5:01

terror in your heart. Exactly. Why weren't we out

5:03

in the world? We were on the

5:05

back lot. So I started just saying things

5:07

into the lens. Sometimes I

5:10

think about the writers watching this later in

5:12

the edit room. So I say

5:14

little things like, you did this to me. I'll get you.

5:17

I'm talking into the future. I know this

5:20

remote will not get made. I

5:23

know that it's just all going

5:25

down in flames. So I just start saying,

5:27

having a good time editing, this isn't going

5:29

to make it. I'm literally talking to the

5:31

writers two days from now who are going

5:33

to be looking at the footage. And

5:35

so I remember that one. There was that one.

5:37

And then there was another remote where one of the writers

5:39

thought it'd be really funny if I hooked

5:42

up with those people that have those shows where

5:44

they claim they see the paranormal. And

5:46

they took me through an empty studio.

5:48

Again, there's a common denominator here. No

5:50

other people, open space or

5:52

enclosed space with nothing in it. And then

5:54

the person kept saying, I think I maybe

5:57

see a ghost, but I'm not sure. And

5:59

me going. trying to make something happen, saying,

6:01

oh, not sure, huh, well, echo,

6:04

echo, echo, echo. It

6:06

just didn't go anywhere. Those are two, I

6:08

wake up at night sometimes thinking about science

6:10

spinning remote. Oh my God. And ghost hunting

6:13

remote. And I just covered

6:15

in sweat. Those are the ones that got away.

6:17

Those are the ones, no, those are the ones

6:19

that never were there. I see. There was nothing,

6:21

they didn't get away. There was nothing there to

6:23

catch in the first place. You know? Science

6:26

spinning seems fun. Now you're implying

6:28

I failed. I don't know, I feel like, it

6:31

sounds to me like it was all

6:33

there. Now, and just, you probably just

6:35

didn't pull your weight. There's

6:41

puns, there's signs, there's spinning. What was he dressed

6:44

like? Was he dressed like an Uncle Sam? I

6:46

think he was just, he was just doing it.

6:48

This is your third Uncle Sam. You got to

6:50

dress like Uncle Sam. No, I didn't say Uncle

6:52

Sam. You said Uncle Sam. I know I did.

6:55

And then you said, this is your third Uncle

6:57

Sam. So that's a totally, that is such a

6:59

shitty, you keep mentioning

7:01

scuba diving. No.

7:05

And then I'm like, what? Let me explain. Hold

7:07

on, what? Yeah, yeah, scuba diving, scuba diving. What did

7:09

you say? Repeat after me, scuba diving. Okay,

7:11

scuba diving. You said

7:13

scuba diving again. What is he with you and scuba

7:15

diving? Listen. Matt, you're

7:18

terrible. You're the worst therapist ever. Worst

7:21

therapist ever. Even worse. You sit there

7:23

with the patient and you keep saying

7:25

things. I'm excited. Also the

7:27

thing is, this is Matt. What I'm talking about

7:29

hasn't even come out yet. I know. Oh

7:32

no, no. There's nine reasons why what you just did is

7:35

a shit show. But I'm just picturing you

7:37

as a therapist. But this Easter egg is gonna pay

7:39

off for people when they listen to summer s'mores. And

7:41

then I will be vindicated and right in high.

7:44

You're a podcast expert. I

7:46

think of those things. What order is it? What's

7:48

been said? I'm gonna contain it to this episode.

7:51

You're just always shooting off your mouth left and

7:53

right. Yeah, well. That's because I

7:55

know the listeners with us and I know

7:57

they can do a memento-like time jump. and

8:00

forth this is just a prequel okay this is

8:02

my impression Matt Gorley therapist

8:05

so Conan I'd like to talk to you bowl

8:09

of corn bowl of corn bowl of corn excuse

8:12

me dr. Gorley what are you saying bowl of

8:14

corn bowl of corn dr. Gorley

8:16

why you keep saying bowl of corn mmm Conan you

8:22

seem obsessed with bowl of corn did

8:25

your father molest you with a bowl of corn as a child

8:28

no you said it nine times well

8:31

that's it for my impression of

8:34

Matt Gorley therapist therapist

8:36

therapist therapist Matt why

8:39

do you keep mentioning

8:41

therapist oh you

8:43

know that lingo in comedy on

8:47

you she

8:50

took you down you gotta get hi I'm

8:53

the t-rex in Jurassic Park yes if I

8:55

see slight movement I go to it and

8:57

you just stepped out of an outhouse yeah

8:59

I know and you know what when

9:01

the glass starts to wiggle it

9:04

doesn't wiggle it makes little

9:06

concentric circles don't say concentric we get

9:09

it you know words but

9:11

it does it like it

9:14

ripples yeah yeah concentric is that

9:16

a word yeah my actually my

9:18

formal name is concentric O'Brien we just

9:20

shortened it to Conan I was

9:23

named my father's a geometry thing I

9:25

was trying to say when you come to the studio the glasses

9:28

that's true oh that's right you

9:30

just see it ripple and then you

9:32

to jump in the back of a an open Jeep

9:34

and try to escape you know when Jeff Goldblum was

9:36

on the podcast and he left holding a big flare

9:38

just to get you out of the building you guys

9:41

don't really know you're just say also you

9:47

bailed on that as you said it which

9:49

is always my favorite thing and remember when Jeff Goldblum left

9:51

with a big flare you guys don't know the reference wait

9:54

I know the reference I saw the look in your

9:56

I wasn't laughing I know the reference I saw

9:58

you smelling blood And I just want

10:00

it out. I just want it out.

10:02

Okay, here's the new one. You're so scared of me.

10:05

Matt Corley, stand up comic. Hey everybody, welcome to the

10:07

show. Yeah, the

10:09

other day, Hobo asked me for a bite

10:11

to eat, so I bit him, you know, as don't get it, you don't like

10:13

it. Why

10:16

the chicken crossed the road to get to the other side? Why do

10:18

people hate me? I don't know why they don't like it. It's because

10:20

he actually crossed the road. That's not the reason why. Well,

10:24

I've demolished you both. Time

10:26

to introduce our guest. Our

10:29

guest still wants to be part of this.

10:31

My guest today, starred in such movies as

10:33

Selma, Lincoln and the Butler. Oh, geez. He

10:35

deserves better. He does. What? He

10:38

does. Than this dumb intro. Oh, I thought you were

10:40

laughing, I know, because I

10:42

thought you were like, Selma, ha ha ha, Lincoln,

10:44

ha ha ha, the Butler. That's what it sounds

10:46

like. I know, but I'm laughing because

10:48

he's such a serious good actor and

10:50

we're idiots. And I don't know what

10:53

we're doing. I think you two are idiots

10:55

and I portray an idiot. That's the way I

10:57

look at it. I'm a great thespian who portrays

10:59

an idiot. Anyway, you can

11:01

now see him in the Paramount Plus

11:03

series, Lawman, Bass Reeves. He is one

11:06

of the finest actors living. I'm excited

11:08

he's here today, again, unless he's left.

11:16

David O'Yellowo. You've

11:21

been on the show several times on

11:23

the late night show. And remember the first

11:25

time you came on, I

11:27

was a bit intimidated. Oh. And

11:30

I'm being honest, because you're such

11:32

a superb actor and

11:34

you have such great acting chops.

11:37

And I just thought, this is

11:39

a very serious man. And

11:42

I need to- Gravitas is probably the word you're

11:44

looking for. Yes, I know, I know. Although I

11:46

call it gravitas. And then

11:49

you came out and you were immediately

11:52

just so hilarious and charming that- This

11:54

is a lot of pressure now, Conan.

11:56

Oh yes, yes. Well,

11:58

I'm saying it all went away. That was just the

12:01

first time I met you. Oh, right, first impression. And then

12:03

I don't know what happened after that. I know, I know,

12:05

downhill. It just been a complete bore. Then I was thinking

12:07

like, Conan, you've been here before because I've

12:09

talked to some, been lucky enough to talk to some great

12:11

actors in my day who are also very funny. I always

12:13

find it, it angers me somewhat. It's

12:16

like, because I think, how can you have

12:18

both? Like all I've got is I think

12:20

I'm kind of funny. And then

12:22

that's my excuse for not being able to act my

12:24

way out of a paper bag. And

12:26

here you are, Shakespearean, accomplished actor. And

12:28

you're one of the funnier people I've

12:30

talked to. Well, thank you. I appreciate

12:32

that a lot. You are a very

12:35

statuesque man. I mean, even just greeting you

12:37

just now. I mean, you- That's

12:39

usually what people say about blonde women in

12:42

the 1950s. You're also very voluptuous.

12:44

Very voluptuous. That's how I think of you

12:46

as a blonde, statuesque woman. But

12:50

no, you have a certain presence and gravitas to

12:52

you. I like to think I do. So you

12:55

have some intimidation facts. I have a presence, but

12:57

kind of a creepy presence. Wouldn't you say something?

12:59

A little bit, you know what? And it's- No, no, jump in on

13:01

it right now. Wow. You

13:04

just agreed right away. You're like, you're not only a great

13:06

actor, but you're funny. And he's like, well, you're tall. Something

13:09

you had nothing to do

13:11

with. You're

13:15

tall and not un-womanlike. Well,

13:19

I think we're off on a really good foot.

13:21

Yes, thank you for the interpretation there. That was

13:23

beautiful. So there's so

13:26

much to talk about. And I

13:28

want to talk about your new show. And there's

13:30

so many things to discuss. First

13:32

of all, I was nervous for you when

13:34

I heard that you were going

13:36

to play Coriolanus. And

13:38

I know that you're a Shakespearean trained actor,

13:40

but I think in my nightmare,

13:43

and you're playing it, where's the production gonna be

13:45

done? The National Theater in London. Oh my God.

13:48

My nightmare would entail being

13:50

in a Shakespearean play, playing

13:52

the main role, because my whole

13:55

life is, I don't know what to do here, so

13:57

I'll make it up. You can't do that in Coriolanus.

14:01

You can't start to say, well, anyway, so what's

14:03

going on here? Did you see

14:05

what's in the paper yesterday? And

14:08

if you do, I think they're going

14:10

to turn on you pretty quickly. You know

14:12

what? I actually have that experience. I did

14:15

a Shakespeare play at the Royal Shakespeare Company,

14:17

and I just had one of those moments

14:19

where all the lines

14:21

went out of my head.

14:24

And the weirdest that you

14:26

can make it up, actually. Not

14:29

with much success,

14:31

but I found my words

14:34

went out of my head, and I found myself

14:36

saying, sheeps and goats. What

14:38

was this? I literally, Anthony

14:40

and Cleopatra. And sheeps

14:43

and goats is not something that

14:45

gives your acting partner anywhere to

14:47

go. And

14:50

the blank expression came back, and you know what

14:52

was so awful that I did? I

14:54

just exited the stage. How

14:57

terrible is that? I screwed them twice. It's so bad.

15:01

It is one of the things I'm the most

15:03

ashamed of. I love recreating this because you blank

15:05

on your lines, and you're up there, and

15:08

this is the worst place to

15:10

butcher Shakespeare. It was

15:12

in Stratford-upon-Avon at the Royal Shakespeare

15:14

Company. The ghost of Shakespeare is

15:17

there, watching. Yeah. And

15:20

he's there every night just heckling.

15:22

And some sheeps and goats. Yeah,

15:25

but to just be there and to

15:27

shout sheeps and goats, and then turn

15:29

on your heels and stride out. Literally.

15:32

Really bad. Really bad. Now

15:34

you have me thinking what Shakespeare's expression

15:36

is, what his ghost must have

15:38

been looking like at that point, and going, bloody

15:41

actors. Yeah, exactly. That's kind of a

15:43

badass move, actually. Or maybe Shakespeare's like,

15:45

I should have worked that in. It

15:48

worked. Oh, so poetic of me. You

15:51

have such a fascinating story because you were

15:53

born in Nigeria, moved to England, but then

15:55

moved back to Nigeria. Is

15:57

that what happened? Born in the UK, moved

15:59

to Nigeria. for about six

16:01

years and moved back to the

16:03

UK. Yeah. And yeah, born in

16:06

Oxford, moved to London, then to

16:08

Nigeria, formative years of my

16:10

life spent in Nigeria from age of

16:12

six to 13. And then

16:14

born into, you know, an immigrant

16:17

family, immigrant parents, for

16:20

whom the arts was just not

16:22

on the docket at all. Because

16:25

there's the immigrant experience

16:27

of, you must climb the ladder,

16:29

legitimacy, and then you're telling them, I

16:31

have an idea, I'll put on costumes

16:33

and pretend to be people. Literally. Literally.

16:35

I remember saying to my dad that

16:38

I was thinking of being an actor

16:40

and he said, why do

16:42

you want to go and be with all

16:44

these promiscuous... Caught jesters?

16:50

Oh, would he be proud of you now, right? This

16:54

Conan O'Brien. Here

16:57

I am with the ultimate court jester.

17:00

That is fantastic that he had that attitude. And

17:03

if I'm correct, he's royalty. Yeah, yeah,

17:05

yeah, yeah. His father was the king

17:07

of a part of Nigeria called Awa.

17:09

So yeah, the idea of me becoming

17:11

a promiscuous court jester was very, very,

17:13

very low on the royal ambitions my

17:15

family had for me. So how did

17:17

you convince them? Was there a turning

17:19

point where your father looked at you

17:21

and said, I get it? Yes.

17:24

And ironically and

17:26

beautifully, it was tied to

17:28

royalty yet again. After

17:30

that season, believe it or not, after I

17:32

had said, sheeps and goats, I

17:36

was invited back to the Royal

17:38

Shakespeare Company to play Henry VI. And

17:41

in Henry VI, it's parts one, two and

17:43

three. And on a Saturday,

17:45

we would perform all three plays in a

17:47

day. We would start at 10.30 in the

17:49

morning and finish at 10.30 at night. Now,

17:53

my dad, he's no longer with us,

17:55

but when he was with us, he

17:57

was someone who quite easily would fall.

18:00

asleep in the middle of a three-minute

18:02

duologue between actors. He gave him a

18:04

warm room, a nice comfy seat, and

18:06

he's out. So my wife

18:08

was sat next to him on

18:10

this Saturday, where he

18:12

was there to watch all 12 hours

18:15

of Henry the Sixth, part one, two,

18:17

and three. She was armed with mints,

18:19

her shoulder to jab him in the

18:21

ribs, the whole thing. He

18:23

stayed awake for the entire thing.

18:25

And he came on the night

18:27

that then Prince Charles

18:29

also came for all the

18:31

performances. So you're talking about

18:34

a man who came to the UK

18:36

in the 60s, dealt with

18:38

unbelievable racism. The

18:40

notion of any Black

18:43

person playing the King of England

18:46

was so impossible. And

18:48

I remember him coming to the

18:50

stage door afterwards. And the phrase

18:52

he said to me is, I

18:54

cannot believe they allowed a Black

18:56

man to play the King of

18:58

England, and it is my

19:01

son. And that

19:04

was the moment. That was the turning

19:06

point. And that's the point beyond which

19:08

he became my number one fan until

19:10

his passing. It was a truly beautiful

19:12

thing. I mean, it's

19:15

getting all tingly, but just the, I can

19:17

only imagine, I mean, I can't imagine,

19:20

but what your father,

19:22

what your family encountered when they come to

19:24

a very different England in

19:26

the 60s. And then to see

19:29

this come about, to see, it's

19:31

unbelievable. Yeah, it is. And it

19:33

was. And it's

19:37

one of the most beautiful

19:39

things. My dad was a

19:41

minicab driver in London. And

19:44

years after my,

19:47

that moment at the Royal Shakespeare Company,

19:49

I've now moved to LA and

19:53

I'm getting to be in movies. And

19:55

I could always tell when he had

19:57

a passenger in the car, because he

19:59

would David, are you doing

20:01

that movie with Tom Cruise? And I

20:03

would go... I

20:07

would go... I

20:10

would go, Daddy, who's in the

20:12

car? Nobody's in the car! Have

20:16

you met Steven Spielberg? I am

20:18

not making this up. I

20:22

am not making this up. The worst. And

20:26

the background, hey, you missed my house! Exactly.

20:31

Exactly. Daddy, please focus. The

20:36

one that I will never forget is when he goes,

20:40

David, where is it you live in LA?

20:42

Is it Beverly Hills? And

20:45

I said, Sherman Oaks. Yes,

20:48

that is it, Beverly Hills. I was

20:50

like, oh... OK. Sorry

20:53

whoever's in the car. Also, you can

20:56

imagine the person in the car thinking

20:58

what it may be. Or I mean,

21:00

this could be a madman just calling

21:02

anyone at random. That is exactly what

21:04

they are thinking. They are thinking, I

21:06

want a refund. I'm giving this guy

21:08

the worst review. Because

21:10

that was exactly how he would scream

21:14

at me on speakerphone with these poor

21:16

people just wanting to get from A

21:18

to B. What's the pop culture you're

21:20

growing up with? What are you watching

21:22

on TV, for example, that's influencing you

21:24

when you're young? What's

21:26

hitting you? What's tugging at your strings? Oh,

21:28

wow. The show I became obsessed

21:31

with was LA Law. And

21:33

the reason why is

21:36

again, going back to my dad, my

21:38

dad had three sons and he wanted

21:40

a lawyer, a doctor and an engineer.

21:43

And I started to get this

21:45

acting bug when I was younger.

21:47

But Blair Underwood played this very

21:49

snazzy lawyer. Sure, I remember that.

21:51

In LA Law. And unbeknownst

21:53

to me, the conflation of the two

21:55

things was why I was so gravitated

21:57

to, I gravitated towards that. show because

21:59

I was like, gosh, I

22:01

just love TV. I love films. I

22:04

love the whole idea of storytelling, but

22:06

my dad wants me to be a

22:08

lawyer and that guy is both. And

22:12

so I went as far as applying

22:14

to law school, the whole thing. Just

22:17

because of Blair Underwood. I

22:20

have told him since and he's

22:22

horrified. But yeah, that was one

22:24

of the more influential shows on

22:26

me. I was flipping

22:28

through notes on you and then I saw

22:30

that you were a Happy Days fan. Oh

22:32

yeah. I thought, Happy Days. Yeah.

22:35

Were you watching Happy Days when you

22:37

were in Nigeria? I mean, obviously these

22:39

are reruns because you're way too young,

22:41

but why is that show grabbing you?

22:43

It was the fawns. It was all

22:45

about the fawns. It was all about

22:47

Henry Winkler and how cool he was.

22:51

The comb through the hair, the whole thing.

22:53

But it was also a very traumatic thing

22:55

for me because I had a

22:57

little afro and every time I took the comb

22:59

into my afro, it wouldn't go through like

23:03

it did for him. And many years

23:06

later, because obviously

23:08

he was in this with Ron Howard and Bryce

23:10

Dallas Howard is a good friend of mine. I

23:12

was at her wedding. I met Henry Winkler. I

23:14

was like, oh my gosh, I'm meeting the fawns.

23:17

And I said, oh, it was so hard for

23:19

me because I would always try to imitate the

23:22

comb going through my hair. And he

23:24

went, ah, I only ever hold it

23:26

up. I never put it through my

23:28

hair. And I went, oh my gosh,

23:30

all of that pain. And you never

23:32

actually run the comb through your hair.

23:35

It's true. He starts and then he

23:37

realizes it's perfect. And he goes, hey,

23:40

we're in the mirror. And I was like, that would

23:42

have been so much more achievable for me. So,

23:45

yeah, I got that all wrong. You

23:58

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24:00

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24:19

Sona? I just don't like that. No, I don't

24:21

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24:23

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24:30

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25:02

Now, Sona, you and your friends just went

25:04

on a pretty cool trip,

25:13

tell me about it, where'd you go? We did, we went to

25:15

Palm Springs and we got an Airbnb. And

25:17

so we had the house to ourselves, which was really

25:20

nice. So we were just at your house the other

25:22

day. I hung out with your kids, we had a

25:24

fun time. I think one of them bit me. But

25:27

I probably deserved it. Yeah, definitely. I was noticing

25:29

your house is really nice. Would you ever Airbnb

25:32

your house? I would, I actually would, for some

25:34

extra cash if nobody was there. Yeah. Or

25:36

maybe if Tack was there. If

25:39

your husband was there, you'd Airbnb the house without telling

25:41

him. Why not? Well, your house is very nice.

25:43

I think people would enjoy it. And you can

25:45

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25:47

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26:56

went to a, not a military

26:58

academy, but you were educated. Similar.

27:01

Similar military academy. In what way? Did

27:03

you have to wear a uniform when you were? Had to wear a uniform. It

27:06

was very, very regimented. It was a

27:08

boarding school in Nigeria. Incredibly

27:11

strict. Yeah, and when I

27:13

talk about it, especially in a Western context,

27:15

because you will get lashed if you did

27:18

naughty things. And I was a very naughty

27:20

boy. But yeah, it

27:22

was pretty intense. I

27:26

was the kid who, you know, I

27:28

remember for a dare. I, this

27:31

is so stupid. I, for a

27:33

dare, I went in to steal

27:35

something out of the headmaster's fridge.

27:38

I got into his house and

27:41

I'll never forget the silhouette of this

27:43

guy in the door looking at me

27:45

with, I'm in his fridge. I didn't

27:47

want anything out of his fridge. I

27:50

just did it for, you know, browning

27:52

points. But it was, and he

27:55

had one of those voices, you know, those people

27:57

who you can barely hear what they're actually saying.

28:00

I was just like, I saw all I heard.

28:08

And it's all I heard, but I

28:11

spent the next term washing toilets. And

28:14

it was, our uniforms were white, which

28:17

is not, not the best uniform for doing

28:19

that job. The closest I have

28:21

to anything like that was, I was very happy.

28:23

My parents sent me away to a camp and

28:25

then for some reason they switched me to another

28:27

camp the next year and I got there and

28:29

they issued me a uniform and it

28:31

had a stripe down the side. And I remember

28:33

they're like, what the hell is this? But that's

28:35

the closest I ever came to feeling like I

28:37

was in the military. Was wearing

28:40

it shows. Thank you. I

28:43

went to a camp where it was like a camp

28:45

in every other way, except there was a stripe down

28:47

the side of the pants. And yet

28:50

when you're telling your story, I'm like, I've been there man.

28:53

I remember roasting a marshmallow.

28:55

Wow. And there was

28:58

a stripe down my pants. So don't complain to me

29:00

about your military academy. It's

29:02

hard. It's hard having a stripe down your pants.

29:05

I get it. I get it. There's

29:09

so much to talk about in your film

29:12

work, but I remember when you came on my

29:14

late night program for Selma,

29:16

for your brilliant

29:18

portrayal of Martin Luther King Jr.

29:22

And I remember we were talking about

29:24

it and then realizing later on that

29:26

you had been kind of method when

29:28

you did that role, meaning that you

29:30

really wanted to inhabit what you did

29:32

so brilliantly. And I think there's no

29:35

more difficult task. If you're talking about

29:37

you playing these Shakespearean figures, if you're

29:39

playing someone from distant history, you can

29:41

interpret. But when you're playing someone who

29:43

lived concurrently with our times and died

29:45

in 1968, there's all

29:47

this footage. You need to create

29:49

your interpretation, but it also needs to

29:51

ring true. You really felt like you

29:53

had to inhabit him all the time

29:55

and be in character. How long did

29:57

you do that for? was

30:00

three months of

30:02

the shoot. And, you know, as you can tell, I

30:05

have an English accent, we were

30:07

shooting in Atlanta. And the

30:10

worst thing about being

30:12

an actor, especially playing that kind of

30:15

role is imposter syndrome, you go, well,

30:17

I am not him, obviously. But

30:20

you have all these people daily who

30:22

you feel the need to convince you

30:24

are him. But the worst thing you

30:26

can do, I think as an actor

30:28

is to be playing that

30:30

room, in a sense, as

30:33

opposed to the film, which is what

30:35

people are ultimately going to

30:37

see. So if I'm having to

30:39

convince the crew, the extras, my

30:42

fellow actors, moment to moment, that's

30:44

too many things. It's already, you know,

30:47

the margins for error are already what they

30:49

are. So the way to take that out

30:52

of the equation, I think is for people

30:54

to buy and large just go, Oh, that's

30:57

not Dr. King, but that's David's

30:59

version of Dr. King moving around

31:01

the set. So it's not an roll

31:03

camera action. And it's like a switch.

31:06

It's too much to kind of be constantly

31:08

doing No, for you to be at the

31:10

craft service table joking around with the crew,

31:12

right? And then, okay, you

31:15

know, put down that pretzel and be in

31:17

it's time to write, we're gonna be Dr.

31:19

Martin Luther King now. Yeah, it seems like

31:21

that would be impossible. It's

31:24

also you know, I had so many speeches, whether

31:26

it be in a church at a rally or

31:28

whatever. And there were people there because of

31:30

the locations we were shooting who had been

31:33

at marches with Dr. King who

31:35

had been in churches with Dr.

31:38

King. I mean, john lewis visited the

31:40

set one day and decided to stay

31:42

for one of my speeches. I was

31:45

like, dude, please don't that really is

31:47

doesn't help me at all.

31:49

You're lovely. And I love

31:51

you. Please leave. Anytime

31:55

you do any gesture, I can just put you on

31:57

this. Nope. Can

32:00

you imagine? He was lactose intolerant.

32:04

Didn't like almonds either. Put the

32:06

almonds down. It's too much. It's

32:08

literally too much. And

32:10

so the way I oxidize

32:13

that is to just kind of be

32:15

in what I would call king light,

32:17

you know, where it's always there so

32:19

that the extras aren't suddenly going, oh,

32:22

look at that trick he's doing.

32:24

You know, you're trying to not

32:26

act is the reality. And

32:28

the best way to do that is to

32:30

just be. And so if I'm being all

32:32

the time, then hopefully that's what the camera

32:35

is catching. People don't realize that this is,

32:37

for people in your life, friends, I would

32:39

think, especially family, if you're trying to maintain

32:44

a certain persona or inhabit a

32:47

character for three months, okay,

32:49

that's one thing on the set, but what happens when you go

32:51

home? Yeah, it's a nightmare. It's

32:54

a nightmare, particularly for my wife

32:58

at the time we were

33:00

doing Selma, we had also just moved into

33:02

a new home. And I remember her calling

33:05

me to discuss curtain colors. And

33:09

I literally

33:11

went, well, I think the

33:13

gray. And

33:16

she went, okay, stop, stop, stop,

33:18

stop. I am not discussing curtains

33:20

with Dr. King. I absolutely, I

33:22

draw the line there. We

33:25

will pick this up after the film.

33:28

Thank you very much. The

33:31

other awful thing is I- I have

33:33

a dream of Anishin Blay. I know,

33:35

I know, I know. She's like, stop,

33:38

stop. Time out,

33:40

time out. Did you ever ask her to call

33:42

back as his wife? I

33:45

should have done that. And you've done that.

33:47

I should have done that. No, but what

33:49

also happened was I put on about 40

33:51

pounds to play Dr. King.

33:53

And he had, or I should say I had

33:55

as him, what

33:58

can only be done. be described as

34:00

man boobs. And

34:03

my wife was incredibly tolerant

34:05

of this. You know, I

34:07

had, you know, I

34:10

wasn't in the shape I

34:12

normally pride myself in being

34:14

in. And the day

34:16

that this thing wrapped, she

34:18

came up to me, jiggled

34:21

my man boobs, and

34:25

said, so what are we doing? What

34:28

are we doing? I

34:30

was like, oh my lord. Like,

34:34

give me a second. What

34:37

are we doing here? What are we doing? What are we

34:39

doing with it? Oh, lubba, lubba, lubba, lubba, lubba, lubba, lubba.

34:44

Speed bag. Bubba, lubba, lubba, lubba, lubba, lubba,

34:46

lubba, lubba, lubba, lubba, lubba, lubba, lubba, lubba,

34:48

lubba. Literally. Come on. Literally.

34:50

Oh, come on. Speed bag. Yeah,

34:52

but they would have been very good speed bags.

34:55

But yeah, I was like, okay, I

34:57

guess my grace period is over. I

34:59

will say this though for you, David,

35:02

at least you had that excuse,

35:05

because I step

35:07

out of the shower and I can't

35:09

say, no, I'm playing Orson Welles at

35:11

the end of his life. You

35:14

know? Or my skin has

35:16

been artificially freckled in a most horrifying

35:18

way, because I'm

35:20

playing a striped bass in

35:22

a movie. There's no

35:25

way for me to go. It's

35:27

like, ugh, I'm gonna play Conan in

35:29

the Conan story. There's no- You're

35:32

just stuck. I'm stuck. There

35:34

is nowhere else to go. How

35:37

do you relax? How do you,

35:39

because you are clearly, you know,

35:42

very professional and capable of

35:45

really focusing. What takes you

35:47

out of all of that?

35:49

I have a very bizarre

35:51

way of relaxing, which is

35:53

to watch mixed martial arts.

35:56

I am obsessed with UFC. And

36:00

It's completely weird, but

36:02

watching two men turn each other's

36:05

faces into burger meat literally

36:07

calms me down. And

36:10

my wife, and

36:13

the reason I know that is

36:15

because a lot of my Saturday

36:17

tends to be dedicated to this

36:19

means of relaxation. My wife cannot bear

36:22

it, neither can my daughter, just how

36:24

bloody these guys can get. So my

36:26

wife will watch me watching it in

36:28

order to spend time with me on

36:30

a Saturday. And she was like, what?

36:33

I'm so tense watching this. Why

36:35

are you so calm,

36:37

relaxed? And I realized what it

36:39

is, is, you know, in what

36:42

I do, because I produce movies

36:44

and TV shows as well, it

36:46

is so hard to get anything

36:48

made. It is so hard to

36:50

get to the point of a

36:52

result. Two men or two women

36:55

go in this cage, they have

36:57

three five minute rounds, someone will

36:59

win. Someone will get a result

37:01

out of this endeavor. It will be

37:03

on the basis. You're looking at me like I'm

37:05

crazy. Because I agree with your wife for any

37:08

time I've watched UFC, I tensed up

37:10

and it makes me so, it

37:12

does the opposite of calm me down. So I'm

37:14

just, I'm shocked. This is how you chill. I

37:17

know, but it's on the basis of

37:19

so much preparation. They do something truly

37:21

unnatural. They have to master five, six,

37:23

seven, eight different disciplines, the amount of

37:25

training, the amount of the weight cut,

37:27

all these things they have to do

37:29

to prepare, which is tantamount to some

37:31

of what you do as an actor.

37:33

You prepare, prepare, prepare. And

37:36

as an actor, you don't know what the reviews are

37:38

going to be. You don't know what the box office

37:40

is going to be. You don't know if the film

37:42

is ever going to come out. There's something so satisfying

37:44

that within those 15 minutes, if it's a

37:46

three minute, if it's three rounds or 25 minutes,

37:49

if it's five rounds, you will have a

37:51

result. That just puts me in such a

37:53

Zen place. It's bizarre, but that's how

37:55

I relax. This

38:00

is my drug. This relaxes me. It is like

38:02

a drug for me. It's

38:05

probably within the last five

38:07

to seven years, which

38:10

is synonymous with when

38:12

I've done some of the work

38:14

I'm most proud of from a

38:16

screen perspective and from a producing

38:18

perspective. To be a black person

38:20

in Hollywood, to be a producer

38:22

in Hollywood, to be someone who

38:25

has the taste I have when

38:27

it comes to the kind of

38:29

stories I want to tell. I'm always trying

38:31

to color outside of the lines. I'm always trying

38:33

to give context to give it

38:36

to unseen, unknown

38:38

characters, stories. My

38:41

mantra is how do we

38:43

normalize the marginalized? And in

38:45

an industry that is so

38:47

fear-based, so constantly looking for

38:49

a comp or what has

38:51

come before, and you're trying

38:53

to do something that is

38:55

hopefully groundbreaking. It's just you

38:58

spend your days in a state of wanting

39:00

to bash your head against the wall quite a

39:02

lot of the time. So this is my- Have

39:04

you considered participating in a UFC fight? Thankfully, I

39:06

discovered this when I was a bit older. You

39:10

have quite a nice face. And I would hate to see

39:12

anything happen to that face. Yeah, it's not a sport

39:14

that does well with- Not the face! Not the face!

39:19

So, no. I

39:21

would be not the body or face in any

39:23

way. Not to me. Not to me. I

39:26

would enter with a producer. I

39:30

would enter with Jeff Ross or Jordan

39:33

Slansky. Right. And they would beat on that person. And

39:38

then I would, if for some reason, one, I would

39:40

take the credit for it. You can

39:42

do the victory lap. You're talking about

39:44

the marginalized and getting these stories, which

39:46

is, I mean, it's so difficult. It's

39:48

always been difficult to get things made.

39:51

I remember this time right now where it's

39:53

extremely difficult. And

39:55

I have a lot of friends that work in, you

39:58

know, mostly writers, but- in the industry

40:00

and less is being made, less is

40:02

being produced right now. And there is a lot of

40:05

fear. Can

40:07

it be a superhero? Basically. The story that

40:09

you want to tell, can we make it

40:11

a superhero? And this series

40:13

that you made, Lawmen, the Bass Reeves,

40:16

about Bass Reeves is a great story. And

40:18

you're depicting a real person who, I can't

40:20

imagine a character who's more marginalized than this

40:22

character. This is a story you've been trying

40:24

to tell for a long time. For a

40:26

long time, yeah, it was eight years. Eight

40:28

years, that's true. An eight-year journey, yeah.

40:30

I first encountered the notion of

40:33

Bass Reeves in 2014. And as

40:37

someone who was a fan of Westerns growing up,

40:39

as I told you, I was a bit of

40:41

a TV addict. So I loved watching them. And

40:45

I never saw anyone who looked like me

40:47

in them, but I still wanted to be

40:49

a cowboy. I didn't even realize that there

40:51

was an image I was missing in terms

40:55

of me as a Black person

40:57

in relation to that beloved genre

40:59

and that incredible history

41:03

in America specifically. So

41:06

in 2014, when I found out who

41:08

Bass Reeves was, and it

41:11

felt like a story that kind of writes itself,

41:13

in a sense, in terms of his achievements. Like

41:15

you say, born into

41:17

enslavement, ends up escaping

41:20

enslavement by beating his master nearly to

41:22

death and then living with Native Americans

41:24

for a time, which is where he

41:27

accrued the skills he used when he

41:29

was deployed as a deputy US

41:31

Marshal and went on to have a

41:33

32-year career at the most dangerous time

41:35

in the most dangerous place in

41:38

America's history. And the only reason we

41:40

have him is because of the Reconstruction

41:42

era that came directly after the Civil

41:44

War, where Black people were given the

41:46

kind of agency that they had never

41:49

had before. And that's what enabled him

41:51

to sort of have the kind of

41:53

rise whereby, can you imagine the whiplash

41:55

of being enslaved and

41:57

being treated so poorly by

42:00

white people and suddenly you are

42:02

empowered to arrest those, a lot

42:04

of who were disgruntled because you

42:06

are now no longer a slave but someone

42:09

who has agency. The very idea that someone

42:12

who grew up in slavery, a black man who grew up

42:14

in slavery would be able to hold a gun was

42:17

something that was completely unimaginable, let

42:19

alone then be in charge of

42:21

enforcing the law. And then have

42:23

a badge, yeah. I

42:26

was watching, there's this moment where early

42:29

on in the show, it wasn't

42:31

clear what your relationship was, you're in

42:33

battle. And

42:36

then there's a moment where it

42:38

very much looks like you're serving

42:40

alongside this general, this

42:43

officer. And then at one point when the

42:45

battle's over, you start to walk

42:47

in one direction and he says, where are

42:49

you going? And you shift your

42:51

whole tone to this very

42:53

servile, which was a great moment. You

42:58

could see you're playing a character who also

43:00

has to play a character. Exactly. I

43:02

don't understand why, because when you hear about

43:04

the story and I then went and looked

43:06

up Bass Reeves, you think, why

43:09

did this take eight years? This is

43:11

a fantastic story. Yeah. And more importantly,

43:13

why did this take the

43:15

entire advent of

43:17

cinema and TV before we

43:19

have in

43:22

my opinion, a show, a film that

43:24

is commensurate with the show? I

43:26

mean, he's turned up in shows

43:28

as peripheral or tangential, but never

43:31

central, never with this kind of

43:33

focus. And when you think about

43:35

where the Western occupies in the

43:38

lexicon of cinema and TV, you

43:41

can only point to one thing, which

43:43

is racism in relation to why we

43:45

haven't yet seen this character,

43:47

someone who many people believe

43:50

is the inspiration for the Lone Ranger, in

43:52

fact, in terms of the exploits that he

43:55

engaged in and with and

43:57

was. the

44:00

Lone Ranger represents in terms of what we

44:02

see in those stories. But you know, it's

44:04

interesting what you talked about there, the code

44:06

switching that he has to employ

44:09

in order to survive. Something that

44:11

is very much alive and well

44:13

for the marginalized in any society

44:15

nowadays, if you want to get

44:17

ahead, especially here in America. But

44:19

that was what was so such

44:21

a gift to play as an

44:24

actor, because he was always incredible.

44:26

It was an opportunity that came

44:28

along that he seized that allowed

44:30

him to be the totality of who

44:32

he could be and who he was.

44:34

And that was afforded in this country

44:36

in the 1860s. And

44:39

the thing that I am tragically taken

44:41

away, which is a pro. But it's

44:43

exactly why it was taken away because

44:45

people like Basri's were rising

44:47

to the fore. And that was in and of

44:50

itself, a threat. What's

44:52

amazing is I was thinking about

44:54

it because in your career, you've

44:56

played so many roles in different

44:58

historical periods. And I was thinking

45:00

you're from the UK and Nigeria,

45:04

but you may know more American history than

45:06

most Americans just because of these roles that

45:08

you're playing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're absolutely right.

45:11

And it's funny, it's 1865

45:13

through to the now. And

45:19

that was, you know, I had

45:21

my Daniel Day Lewis moment in

45:23

Lincoln, playing

45:25

a unionist soldier opposite

45:27

him, berating him

45:30

for spouting the Gettysburg

45:32

Address, but not living by its

45:34

tenants and saying, when are black people

45:36

going to get the vote? And then

45:38

in Selma, 19 presidents, a hundred years

45:41

later in 1965, I'm asking

45:43

the same thing of Lyndon Johnson. When

45:45

are black people going to get the

45:47

vote? And then in the

45:49

Butler, we go from the fifties through to

45:51

the 2000s when Obama becomes

45:53

president. I play a Tuskegee airman in,

45:56

in red tails as well. I was a preacher

45:58

in the help. you have with

46:01

Bass Reeves, 1860. So yeah, it's this sort

46:03

of 150, 160 period in America's formative history

46:10

that I've been blessed to tell

46:12

some of those stories. You've had

46:14

an amazing education in American history

46:16

in a very unusual way. I

46:19

think a lot of people, maybe they either

46:21

don't know it or they forget that

46:23

right after the Civil War, there was

46:25

this moment in

46:27

Reconstruction where many former slaves

46:30

are running for office and

46:33

they're office holders. And it really does look

46:35

like the promise is being met. And

46:38

then bang, the door comes down and

46:41

it becomes very regressive the other way. And

46:44

that was one of the reasons I

46:46

was so passionate about telling this story,

46:49

because that is such an incredible moment

46:51

in this country's history. And for

46:53

reasons that I'm sure we can guess,

46:58

that period has not been mined

47:01

enough. It's actually a shameful period

47:03

in America's history because it was

47:05

the opportunity to deliver on the

47:07

promise of what America wanted or

47:10

said it wants to be. And

47:13

then the reneging on that was

47:15

so extreme with Jim

47:17

Crow coming in and anyone who was

47:20

marginalized, whether it be sharecropping or

47:22

lynching or all the way

47:24

through to the Civil Rights movement was the next

47:26

time there was any kind of push

47:29

towards the kind of agency and justice

47:31

that was promised by Lincoln. And

47:34

so it is the moment

47:36

that birthed Tulsa and that

47:38

awful situation. But

47:40

there are African Americans who did extraordinary

47:42

things in those 12 to 13 years,

47:45

which I'm just so desirous that we

47:48

get to see more of that because in

47:50

many ways it is a celebration of what

47:52

America is, could be, should be.

47:54

And that's why I love

47:57

doing these historical films because We

48:00

are so quick to forget. I

48:02

mean, the moment that we're in,

48:04

in Hollywood right now, is a

48:06

pendulum swing from the Black Lives

48:08

Matter movement, the Me Too movement,

48:10

these moments very recently where there

48:12

were huge gains made that are

48:14

now being clawed back because we

48:17

just refuse to learn from

48:19

history and build

48:21

on the knowledge accrued,

48:23

which is why, for me,

48:25

storytelling is not just

48:28

about entertainment. It's about holding

48:30

culture and our

48:32

communal community accountable. I always go back

48:35

to the same thought, which is we're

48:37

a work in progress. Yeah, yeah. America,

48:39

the United States, it's a work in

48:41

progress and you have to

48:43

acknowledge the terrible mistakes and flaws.

48:45

You also have to acknowledge the

48:47

great aspects of the culture. You

48:50

have to, and you just have to keep

48:52

going back at it. Absolutely. Keep going, getting

48:54

back into the conversation and saying, how can

48:56

we move the puzzle piece a little bit

48:58

further? And the

49:00

pendulum will swing, it'll go right, it'll go left, we

49:02

just have to keep nudging it along. Absolutely.

49:06

I always say you cannot be what you cannot see

49:08

and you need to see it. You need to see

49:10

those great moments in order

49:12

to continue to aspire towards them. And

49:15

to me, Bass Reeves is a great moment, not

49:18

just a great man, but it's a great

49:20

moment. And it's, you know, to me, I

49:22

know it sounds a bit lofty, but

49:24

it's a clarion call to, keep on finding

49:27

our way back to our better selves. That's

49:29

what Selma was for me as well. That's

49:31

what Queen of Cartway was. That's what a

49:33

United Kingdom was. That's certainly, you

49:36

know, the work I'm most proud of, I

49:38

think that that's an element of it because

49:40

I agree with you. That's part of

49:43

how we be better is to know

49:45

more. Who were the actors that you

49:47

were watching when you were seeing cinema,

49:49

when you're seeing film, when you're coming

49:52

along that where you thought, okay, that

49:54

person is inspiring me. That person is

49:56

showing me the way. Yeah, I mean,

49:58

my two big heroes. heroes, probably

50:02

Sidney Poitier and Daniel

50:04

Day-Lewis. My mom, my

50:06

mom's favorite film was Guess

50:08

Who's Coming to Dinner. So we

50:10

would watch that time and time again. And

50:13

his poise, you know, someone who

50:16

looked like, I

50:18

get emotional just thinking about it, but someone

50:20

who looked like me and

50:23

had the bearing of my

50:25

father and my uncles. And

50:30

that was just not something you saw almost at

50:32

all. Certainly

50:35

not in films that were

50:37

universally acclaimed, like In

50:39

the Heat of the Night as well, which

50:41

is just a formative piece of cinema for

50:43

me. But then also just seeing

50:45

Daniel Day-Lewis in my left foot and

50:48

just thinking, I simply do

50:50

not understand how it

50:53

is possible for an actor to

50:55

achieve that level of embodiment. When

50:57

I found out he was able-bodied,

51:00

when I heard him speak and

51:02

he was so opposite to that,

51:04

it was the moment I determined that as

51:07

an actor, the thing I want to aspire to

51:09

be the most is chameleonics. Someone who you roll

51:11

to roll, you're going, which way is he gonna

51:14

go next? Because that's what I

51:16

love about Daniel Day-Lewis. That's what I

51:18

love about Christian Bale. That's what I

51:20

love about what I get to do,

51:22

is I have no interest in playing

51:25

some kind of version of myself, I

51:27

always want to go to the character.

51:29

Yeah, there's also, there's obviously there's a

51:31

tradition in movies where someone's always

51:33

playing a version of themselves

51:36

and not just Americans,

51:38

but worldwide, people make room for

51:40

that and they really like it. Some of the iconic

51:42

movie stars are just playing, you

51:44

almost want to laugh when they say, well, my

51:47

character in this, you're like, what do you mean

51:49

your character in this? I'm sorry, Clint Eastwood, I

51:51

love you, but you're always, let me guess, you're

51:53

squinting, you're a man of few words and you're

51:55

gonna kick the shit out of somebody if they

51:58

wrong you. And we love you for it. And

52:00

we love you for it. But this

52:02

idea of that you can shape shift,

52:05

I don't understand it. It's mystical to me.

52:07

I'm so glad you used the phrase mystical

52:10

because this is where you can kind of

52:12

get into what kind of feels conceited

52:15

territory. But to

52:17

me, you know, in the moment of

52:19

playing Dr. King or

52:22

even with Bass Reeves, I remember

52:24

us shooting on an actual plantation

52:26

and it was a plantation where

52:28

80 people had

52:30

been enslaved back in the day. It

52:33

was an incredibly difficult place

52:35

to shoot because I kid you

52:37

not, the ghosts of that fact

52:39

were present. And the nature of

52:41

the scenes that we were doing

52:44

were all the more difficult, all

52:46

the more true, all the more

52:48

lived in for that fact. And

52:50

there is a kind of

52:53

exchange that is mystical,

52:55

spiritual. And it's about how

52:57

much you're prepared to open

52:59

yourself up to that in

53:01

order to be flowed through

53:04

by the history, by the writing,

53:06

by the direction, by the other

53:08

actors with the audience in mind.

53:10

What are you by way of

53:12

service offering up to them? And

53:16

what we do, what I am so

53:18

privileged to do is you're constantly in

53:20

the pursuit of trying to capture lightning

53:22

in a bottle. And there are certain

53:25

circumstances under which there is more likelihood

53:27

for that to happen than others. And

53:29

it's about an openness. And that openness,

53:31

if I've done my work, if I

53:34

am staying to a certain degree in

53:36

the character, if I'm open

53:38

to what is coming at me by way

53:40

of stimulus, that has been the moments where

53:42

even now when I

53:45

watch Selma, I have a

53:47

complete disconnection from it because I was

53:49

in a place I

53:51

almost can't fully quantify or understand

53:54

because of the alchemy of what

53:56

was happening in that moment. And

53:58

that's the joy. That's the benefit of

54:01

when you're doing it at the

54:03

highest level with directors like Eva

54:05

DuVernay and incredible actors around you

54:07

and great writing. It's a mystical

54:09

thing. There's also, you mentioned

54:11

something that I completely believe in. Of course it

54:14

makes sense that you go back to a

54:17

plantation and pick up

54:19

on this trauma. Do you know what I

54:21

mean? And that

54:23

would inform what you're doing. I'm

54:25

so glad that you've talked about this

54:28

because it's one of the tricky things as

54:30

a producer you face when you're trying to tell

54:32

a true story and you go, oh yeah, there's

54:34

a good tax break in Canada. Actually

54:38

with this story, I think we've got

54:40

to fight to be in the place.

54:42

And every time it has

54:45

yielded intangible but

54:48

indisputable benefits. We had that, we

54:50

shot on the Edmund Pettus bridge

54:53

we were there. We were on

54:55

the Montgomery State House steps where

54:58

Dr. King gave that speech. It's

55:01

going to sound so crazy, but that

55:03

morning of giving that speech, the FBI

55:06

had told him, you will be assassinated

55:08

if you do that speech. It's

55:10

too open, we have no way to

55:13

protect you. And he chose to give

55:15

that speech anyway. And I woke up

55:17

with this just overwhelming sense that I

55:19

was going to be assassinated that day.

55:21

I know it doesn't fully make sense,

55:23

but it wasn't till the end of

55:25

that day where we had shot the

55:27

scene and it was done. I found

55:29

myself going, gosh, I'm still alive. And

55:31

it was to do with being in

55:33

that place. We shot a United Kingdom

55:35

in Botswana. They wanted us to shoot

55:37

it in South Africa. There was a

55:39

completely different vibe from being there. Same

55:42

thing with Queen of Cartway, shooting it

55:44

in Cartway. There is energy that you

55:46

pick up, finds its way onto the

55:48

celluloid, finds its way through the screen into

55:50

the audience. And at the end of the day, the

55:53

true job of a storyteller is the pursuit

55:55

of the truth. And the audience can feel

55:57

when they are getting a watered down version.

55:59

of that and you come out just

56:01

going, the film was okay.

56:03

You're not necessarily saying it wasn't

56:06

true or but when you have

56:08

been served up something that feels

56:10

truly authentic, it speaks to the

56:12

human being in you, which is

56:14

why the best films we love,

56:17

you have a protagonist that you can tether

56:19

yourself to and you go, I am relating

56:21

to this character. I am working out what

56:23

I would do in this scenario. That's because

56:26

they are a three dimensional, believable human being

56:28

that you can relate to. I'm invested in

56:30

them too. That's it. I'm invested in them. I really

56:32

care what happens to this person. That can only happen

56:34

if it's true. If it feels true to what it

56:36

is to be a human being. Well, I could talk

56:38

to you for 50 hours. I

56:41

seriously could. Likewise. And the delightful

56:43

thing, there

56:46

are many delightful things about you, but

56:48

the fact that we started out, there's

56:50

so much just laughing, just really good

56:52

nature, humor, and then we get

56:54

to this other place, it's really beautiful. That's

56:57

my favorite kind of podcast conversation.

56:59

And just, I shouldn't even say podcast

57:01

conversation. That's my favorite kind of conversation.

57:04

It really means a lot to me. So go

57:07

forth, continue to do great things. Thank

57:09

you. And I am just a massive

57:12

fan. You're welcome here anytime. Oh, I

57:14

appreciate that. And if you

57:16

see a really good part for me. Oh. As

57:19

a producer. You could have just wrapped it up.

57:21

As a statuette. Wrap it up. You could have

57:23

ended it. You could have ended it. I'm just saying.

57:25

You could have ended it. You

57:27

did end it. Later in life, Marilyn, just before

57:29

the end. Oh, wrap that. I can

57:31

see you being a great incompetent senator.

57:34

I can see that in Coriolanus. I'm

57:38

there. Fabulous.

57:40

I am there. And trust me. Maybe not your

57:42

production. I don't think you have to. And you

57:45

know what? You'd bring it down. You know what

57:47

I love? Okay. He's a local theater. David would

57:49

be recommending me to every other Shakespeare

57:52

producer in London. And it'd be

57:54

like, well, how come you don't? How come you don't? I think

57:56

he's better for you. He's

57:58

going to be fantastic. His real. Anyone

1:04:00

watch it yet? I'm it's Chris

1:04:02

Hemsworth. So I think I think

1:04:04

it's going very well. But OK,

1:04:06

Chris Hemsworth. You know, that's the thing. Look what I

1:04:08

had to do to get the viewer

1:04:10

interested. Yeah. I had to

1:04:13

destroy my intestinal tract. OK, but

1:04:15

then Chris Hemsworth can just be

1:04:17

there and smile. And

1:04:19

look, they're having fun. Sorry. Are you still

1:04:21

here? Yeah, we're kind of busy right now.

1:04:23

I hate it here. You're still

1:04:25

here? I'm sorry. I thought you left. I

1:04:27

was cursed with this puss. God

1:04:30

gave me this face. And you can turn that

1:04:32

off now. I mean, it's ridiculous. No, you can

1:04:34

turn it on. No, no, no. Turn it off

1:04:36

for now. Conan O'Brien is cursed with this puss.

1:04:41

Can I just say when I was born? Yeah.

1:04:43

The doctor held me up to my mom

1:04:45

and she said, oh, my God, what happened

1:04:47

to his puss? Which

1:04:50

is how people talk to the back. Is that a

1:04:52

true story? No. Because my mom cried when

1:04:54

she saw my face. What? Yeah. She thought

1:04:56

I was a really ugly baby. I'm not

1:04:58

joking because my nose was crooked, too. Even

1:05:00

so, who told you this? My mom did.

1:05:03

Oh, that's not cool. Now, a lot of

1:05:05

babies get sort of smushed on the way

1:05:07

out. I got smushed. Yeah. And

1:05:10

I was smushed. And then it takes a while for

1:05:12

things to pop back. I

1:05:14

don't know if pop back is like the right

1:05:16

way to describe it. Well, how long was your nose smushed for until you

1:05:18

were? It's still a little crooked. It's not

1:05:20

like normal. My nose is not normal, but it

1:05:23

was like really crooked. And I saw the first

1:05:25

picture that they take, they take the first picture

1:05:27

of you in the hospital. And I was like,

1:05:29

I get it. My baby picture

1:05:31

is horrifying. It's just horrifying. And

1:05:33

I just have this, what

1:05:36

looks like copper wiring on my head. And

1:05:39

I was the only one in my family of six

1:05:41

kids that had this copper colored hair. And

1:05:43

it was just a freak show.

1:05:47

Yeah. I asked my mom once

1:05:49

and she said, you were a

1:05:51

fat little Buddha with orange hair.

1:05:54

And I was like, okay. She said it like that?

1:05:56

She said a fat little Buddha with orange hair. And

1:05:58

then she gets all happy when she talks. when

1:10:00

face pass through. Okay, that's

1:10:02

unusual. We don't, I smushed you! All

1:10:06

right, I need a drink and

1:10:08

I need some pills immediately. I went too far.

1:10:11

I love your mom. Love you, Nadia, but you know what you did.

1:10:15

Peace out, everybody. Conan

1:10:19

O'Brien needs a friend. With Conan O'Brien,

1:10:21

Sonam of Sessian and Matt Gorley. Produced

1:10:23

by me, Matt Gorley. Executive produced by

1:10:25

Adam Sacks, Nick Liao and Jeff Ross

1:10:28

at Team Coco and Colin Anderson and

1:10:30

Cody Fisher at Earwolf. Theme song by

1:10:32

The White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy

1:10:35

Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our

1:10:40

supervising producer is Aaron Blair and our

1:10:42

associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples. Engineering

1:10:45

and mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brendan

1:10:47

Burns. Additional production support by Mars Melnick.

1:10:49

Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista

1:10:51

and Brit Khan. You can rate and

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review this show on Apple Podcasts and

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