0:00

It's been 15 years since the death of

0:02

Michael Jackson, the king of pop. His

0:04

music is singular, with blockbuster hits like

0:06

Thriller, and

0:12

Billie Jean. Jackson

0:19

was and remains one of the world's

0:21

biggest stars, but to some

0:23

people, Jackson was a monster. He was

0:25

accused of sexually abusing children. The allegations

0:27

followed him for decades. There's no thoughts

0:29

of this is wrong or anything like

0:31

that. He

0:33

told me if they ever found out what

0:36

we were doing, he

0:38

and I would go to jail

0:41

for the rest of our lives. That's a

0:43

clip of the trailer for the 2019

0:45

HBO doc series, Leaving Neverland, in which

0:47

two men alleged Jackson sexually abused them

0:49

when they were children. His

0:51

estate denies these allegations, and the only

0:54

time he faced criminal prosecution for alleged

0:56

sexual abuse of a minor, he was

0:58

acquitted of all charges. Today,

1:00

the question of how to reconcile

1:02

Jackson's musical genius with his alleged misconduct

1:04

is still a fraught one. Growing

1:06

up in Harlem, listening to him with

1:09

my cousins is connected to so

1:11

many memories and relationships in my life.

1:13

That's hip-hop commentator Jay Smooth speaking with

1:15

NPR last year. He's co-host of the

1:18

podcast Think Twice, Michael Jackson. And yet

1:20

at the same time, over the course

1:22

of Michael's life and career, I came

1:25

to see him in many ways as

1:27

this sort of heartbreaking, tragic figure and

1:30

someone who may well have done awful things

1:32

to others. And that's remained really

1:34

unsettled for me what to do with

1:36

all of that. Despite

1:38

the lingering shadow of these

1:40

allegations, high-profile projects that celebrate

1:42

Jackson's career have continued to

1:44

pop up without necessarily addressing

1:46

these controversies, like MJ the

1:49

Musical, which is currently on Broadway. The musical

1:51

highlights the making of Jackson's 1992 dangerous

1:54

tour when he was at the peak of his

1:56

career. That time period also predated

1:59

the first public action. accusations against Jackson, which

2:01

came to light in 1993. So

2:04

those and any other allegations against Jackson are

2:06

not addressed on stage. And

2:08

next spring, there's a biopic starring Jackson's

2:10

own nephew, Jafar. Jackson's estate

2:12

has been heavily involved in the film.

2:15

Several executors are listed as producers.

2:18

And Neverland Ranch, Jackson's infamous former

2:20

home where alleged child sexual abuse

2:22

occurred, is going to be a

2:24

major filming location. It

2:26

remains to be seen how the film

2:28

will address Jackson's tumultuous career. Consider

2:31

this, 15 years on,

2:33

Michael Jackson's legacy remains extremely

2:35

complicated. Is it possible to separate

2:37

the artist and the person? And should we?

2:49

From NPR, I'm Adrian Flodiva. This

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phone plan for just $15, go

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to mintmobile.com/switch. It's

4:08

considered this from NPR and here

4:10

to reflect on Michael Jackson's legacy

4:12

are NPR's Eric Deggans and NPR's

4:14

Ann Powers. Hi, Eric. Hi,

4:17

Ann. Hey, how are you doing? Good

4:19

to talk. Good to have you here. Thanks so much.

4:21

I want to start by hearing from each

4:24

of you about your relationship to Michael Jackson's

4:26

music growing up and throughout your life. Ann,

4:29

do you want to start? The

4:31

first album I ever bought was a Jackson

4:33

5 album, so really Michael Jackson has been

4:35

a constant in my listening life for

4:38

my whole life. But

4:40

at the same time, I was in Los

4:42

Angeles working for the LA Times when he passed

4:44

away. I saw all

4:46

of the mourning that happened, but

4:49

also every controversy that

4:51

arose and have been

4:53

acutely aware of the

4:56

issues that have surrounded him. So

4:58

I have to say I've had

5:01

a troubled fanship or a troubled

5:03

appreciation with him for many,

5:07

many years now. And I've thought a lot about

5:09

what it means to love the music and

5:11

the art of someone who makes

5:14

you question their place

5:16

in history. Eric,

5:19

what about you growing up? What was your relationship with Michael Jackson?

5:22

So I apologize for this being a little

5:24

long, but I grew up in

5:26

Gary, Indiana. My grandmother lived about five blocks away

5:28

from where the Jacksons lived when they were in

5:30

Gary. Now they moved to LA when I was

5:33

about six years old, so I didn't really know

5:35

any of them. But I

5:37

felt like Michael Jackson was an

5:39

avatar for me when I

5:41

was growing up because he was living the

5:44

life that I kind of wanted to have.

5:47

I wanted to become a performer and

5:49

eventually became a musician. And

5:52

so I would do Michael Jackson impersonations for

5:54

my family at Christmas time

5:56

and things like that back in the

5:58

day. back when I was

6:01

little, when I say 10 years old. So

6:03

he was very much an inspiration and then

6:05

cut to I'm in college in the 80s

6:08

and I form a band called The Voyage

6:10

Band at Indiana University and we get signed

6:12

to Motown. And so I'm

6:14

a professional musician and

6:16

we were all very inspired by Off

6:19

The Wall, his solo

6:22

record and then Thriller, the production of

6:24

it, the songwriting of it and of

6:26

course the success of it. And

6:29

then cut to when he gets

6:31

older and there's these molestation

6:33

allegations, I was a pop music

6:36

critic for the Asbury Park Press in New Jersey and

6:38

then of course when he died, I

6:41

helped cover that as well. So I've seen him

6:43

as a pop music critic, I've seen him as

6:45

a musician and I've seen him as a fan.

6:48

And I think a lot of people have

6:50

had that kind of long standing

6:52

experience with him where he was the soundtrack

6:54

of their youth or he was the soundtrack

6:56

of their lives and then all of a

6:59

sudden towards the end of his life we get

7:01

these really serious allegations that

7:03

make us all think twice about all

7:05

the things that we thought we knew

7:07

about him. It's been

7:10

15 years since Michael Jackson died now

7:12

and these new projects keep popping up,

7:14

pretty high profile ones including a Broadway

7:17

musical, a biopic, do you think

7:19

it's fair to say that the passage of

7:21

this time has sort of tilted in Jackson's

7:23

favor and that his legacy is actually being

7:26

expanded to a new generation? I

7:29

do and I think that's partly

7:31

because the music is so undeniable.

7:33

Its influence remains so great and

7:35

this isn't so much about the

7:37

singularity of his genius as a

7:39

performer. It's about when

7:41

Eric was saying, thriller alone

7:44

changed music and R&B, it's

7:47

still using that template. Yeah and I

7:49

would also say that Michael Jackson

7:52

formed the template for the

7:54

modern pop star. You

7:56

know what Taylor Swift is doing

7:58

now in terms of of being

8:01

expected to be the main

8:03

songwriter and the lead singer

8:05

and the person in control

8:07

of her career and the

8:09

guiding force for all of

8:12

these gigantic massive records and

8:14

the expectation that that success

8:16

would continue on. You

8:18

know, he had a creative vision

8:21

and voice that was different. So

8:24

that's what's so singular about him. And of

8:26

course we're returning to it because we're at

8:28

this point where we're looking back at

8:30

a lot of stuff that was important to

8:33

us in the 80s and the 90s with

8:35

many decades of sort of

8:37

understanding and context. One example would

8:39

be that documentary, The Greatest Night in Pop. Everybody's

8:42

been watching lately on Netflix. In

8:45

that documentary, we see how Michael

8:47

basically wrote

8:49

We Are the World. Not only

8:51

that, but stands around in

8:54

the studio watching all these massive

8:56

stars flub it or not

8:58

do that well. I

9:00

mean, those images have

9:02

eclipsed the more disturbing images

9:05

in the public consciousness at this

9:07

time. Why do you think

9:09

there is less stigma on Michael Jackson than

9:11

on, say, celebrities like R. Kelly

9:14

or Bill Cosby or Harvey

9:16

Weinstein, these other men who have in some

9:18

ways been sort of excised

9:20

from our popular culture? Is he just

9:22

too beloved, too huge, too embedded in

9:24

our cultural DNA to

9:27

be totally canceled? I

9:29

mean, the march of time is one thing as

9:32

these other stories have accrued. And

9:34

today we're dealing with another very,

9:37

very upsetting story involving

9:39

Diddy. As

9:41

they accrue, our

9:43

memories can only hold so much, I think, you know?

9:46

And then all kinds of things can happen. Rationalization,

9:49

forgetfulness, that

9:54

temptation to contextualize, oh, everyone was doing

9:56

that. But what I think is missing

9:58

is... is a sense

10:00

of the larger system that

10:03

created this troubled soul in many

10:05

ways and also gave him

10:08

carte blanche to do so many

10:10

things. I think it's important

10:13

to note that Michael Jackson

10:15

is dead. Yes. And

10:17

that is a big difference between all

10:20

the other people that you mentioned where

10:22

there's not a living person to be

10:24

made, to be held accountable.

10:27

Right, to be jailed or whatever,

10:29

right. To be jailed, and

10:31

there's not a living person who will profit

10:33

if you keep listening to their records or

10:35

you keep patronizing projects

10:38

that are associated with their legacy.

10:41

But I would also say the

10:43

allegations against Michael Jackson hit the

10:45

courts when we had a

10:47

very different outlook on

10:50

these kinds of allegations involving

10:52

sex and abuse and molestation

10:56

against celebrities. And I

10:58

think the one thing the Me

11:00

Too movement has done that's really

11:02

amazing is it has pushed us

11:05

to listen to the victims more,

11:07

to be more exacting

11:09

about saying if there's multiple people who

11:11

say someone was abusive, we really have

11:13

to dig into this no matter how

11:15

powerful they are. And

11:18

so I think the big distinction between

11:20

Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein and R.

11:22

Kelly and Michael Jackson is

11:24

that the allegations against these men

11:26

who are now being held accountable

11:28

came much later. And we as

11:31

a public are much more willing

11:33

to hold them accountable despite their

11:36

celebrities, despite their influence, despite

11:38

how much people might love their

11:40

work. And that wasn't necessarily the case

11:42

in the 1990s. No, it's definitely

11:45

true. You know, it's funny. I was looking

11:47

back at something I wrote

11:49

in the very early days when these

11:51

allegations first arose and

11:53

I myself said Michael

11:55

Jackson was just human and humans

11:57

aren't perfect. The dialogue around

11:59

this has really evolved, thank goodness,

12:02

to, you know, wash

12:04

away that tendency

12:07

to excuse, to accept

12:10

alleged wrongdoing simply because

12:12

someone is a celebrity. Yeah, I

12:14

mean, the public's view of him evolved significantly

12:16

during his life and his legacy has continued

12:18

to evolve since his death. Do you think

12:20

that his legacy is going to

12:23

continue evolving going forward? Oh,

12:26

do you want

12:28

to take that one first, Erica? Sure, sure. Yeah,

12:30

you can go. Absolutely, I think it

12:33

will, because he had

12:35

a seismic impact on music, but

12:37

he also had a seismic impact on

12:40

fame and what it can

12:42

do to you. And how do

12:44

you survive it or not survive it?

12:46

I mean, the other part of his

12:48

story is we see his face change.

12:50

We see him apparently go

12:52

through all these operations to

12:54

alter his appearance and

12:58

lighten his skin tone and change what

13:00

his nose looks like. You

13:02

know, obviously fame, the

13:04

tremendous amount of fame that he earned

13:06

in the wake of particularly the success of

13:09

Thriller, but the fact that he had been

13:11

world famous since he was a little

13:13

kid, obviously was a burden

13:15

for him. And the

13:17

way he died even, you

13:20

know, taking propofol to

13:22

sleep and having,

13:24

you know, a horrific accident with that lead to

13:26

his death, you know, gives you this sense that

13:28

not only is he someone

13:30

who had a great effect on music,

13:32

but his personal life was a cautionary

13:34

tale about the ravages of fame.

13:38

I think that's another thing that's different

13:40

about this moment is that we look

13:42

at celebrities like Taylor Swift, and

13:44

we understand that as fans and the public,

13:47

we almost have a duty to be

13:49

careful about how we worship these people

13:52

and about how much we expect of them.

13:55

And so we're, I think we're processing all

13:57

of that in a different way now than

13:59

we did even. five or six years ago.

14:01

Eric, I feel that you are being

14:04

the optimist in this conversation.

14:07

I think that's all true. We do

14:09

have more tools to understand fame and

14:11

there is more public discourse around the

14:13

costs of fame. But at the same

14:15

time, look at the entertainment

14:18

industry now and particularly the music

14:20

industry. So many of our pop

14:22

stars start their careers in childhood.

14:26

So many of them are clearly

14:29

suffering from struggles with

14:31

mental health. I'll just mention that Chapel

14:33

Rhone, an amazing new pop star whom

14:36

I love, recently broke down in public

14:38

saying, this has all happened so fast,

14:40

I have no tools, I can't deal

14:42

with this. The machine

14:44

is still cutting

14:47

off limbs, costing lives. And

14:50

what I would hope the ultimate legacy

14:52

of, not Michael Jackson's music, the ultimate

14:54

legacy of Michael Jackson's music is genius.

14:57

It's beauty, it should

14:59

be preserved. But

15:01

the legacy of his personal

15:03

story should be an ongoing

15:05

assessment of the

15:08

star making machinery that costs

15:11

the people whom we supposedly love,

15:14

their humanity sometimes, their

15:17

lives even. Well,

15:19

I've been speaking with NPR's Eric Deggans and

15:21

Ann Powers about the legacy of Michael Jackson

15:24

15 years after his death. Thanks to you both. Thank

15:26

you so much. Thank you. This

15:28

episode was produced by Katherine Fink. It

15:30

was edited by Jeanette Woods. Our executive

15:32

producer is Sammy Yenigan. Thanks

15:35

to our Consider This Plus listeners

15:37

who support the work of NPR

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journalists and help keep public radio

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strong. Supporters also hear every episode

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without messages from sponsors. Learn more

15:45

at plus.npr.org. It's

15:47

Consider This from NPR. I'm Adrian

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