0:00

When former President Donald Trump spoke publicly

0:02

about his felony conviction last week,

0:04

he painted himself as a beleaguered

0:06

public servant. It's my honor to

0:08

be doing this. It really is.

0:10

It's a very unpleasant thing, to

0:12

be honest. But

0:15

it's a great, great honor. It's funny with

0:17

that. Quote, he's describing how a lot of

0:19

Americans feel about jury duty. And in the

0:21

case of the 12 New Yorkers who voted

0:23

to convict Trump on 34 counts

0:25

of falsified business records, their

0:28

lives might get especially unpleasant now that

0:30

the trial is over. Trump

0:32

has not directly attacked the jury,

0:35

but his supporters across social media

0:37

have, threatening everything from doxxing to

0:39

death. After the trial,

0:41

Trump did imply that the jury pool

0:43

in left-leaning Manhattan was biased against him.

0:45

They wouldn't give us a venue change.

0:47

We were at 5% or 6% in

0:50

this district, in this area. In

0:55

part due to safety concerns, the identities

0:58

of the jurors were not disclosed publicly.

1:01

And there's a long list of Americans who

1:03

in the course of doing their jobs have

1:05

upset Trump and been threatened or harassed by

1:07

his supporters. Like Maine Secretary

1:09

of State Shena Bellows, a Democrat,

1:11

she removed Trump from the Republican

1:14

presidential primary ballot, which she said

1:16

state law required her to do.

1:19

Politics and my personal views played no role.

1:21

I swore an oath to uphold the Constitution.

1:25

Eventually, that decision was reversed by

1:28

the Supreme Court. Before that happened,

1:30

she told NPR her house was

1:32

swatted, targeted by a hoax 911

1:34

call. I

1:36

stand by doing my job,

1:38

but the response, the threats

1:40

of violence and threatening communications,

1:42

have been unacceptable. Consider

1:46

this. The New Yorkers who

1:49

convicted Donald Trump are still anonymous, at

1:51

least for now. What will

1:53

their lives look like after this

1:55

blockbuster trial? From

2:03

Npr. I'm Ari Shapiro. This.

2:07

This message comes from NPR

2:09

sponsor Dana-Farber Cancer Institute. Thanks

2:12

to Dana-Farber's foundational work, protein

2:14

degradation can target cancer-causing proteins

2:16

and destroy them right inside

2:19

the cell. Learn more at

2:21

dana-farber.org/ everywhere. The following message comes

2:23

from NPR sponsor Sotva. Founder and CEO

2:25

Ron Rudson is on a mission to

2:28

bring quality sleep to more people. Health

2:30

and wellness are so tied to quality

2:33

sleep. And I'm trying to tell everyone, look,

2:35

you have to treat sleep like an act of To.

2:42

Learn more! got it

2:44

as double atva.com/and Pr.

2:48

This message comes from Npr. Sponsor

2:50

the Capital One Venture X card

2:52

or an unlimited to x miles

2:54

on everything you buy plus get

2:56

access to were three hundred dollar

2:58

annual credit for bookings through Capital

3:00

One Travel. What's in your wallet

3:02

Terms Apply Details at Capital one.com.

3:05

Support for Npr in the following

3:07

message come from Zero and Pamela

3:09

Mon thanking the people who make

3:11

Public Radio grade every day and

3:13

also those who listen. It's

3:21

consider this from Npr. Here's a

3:24

quote: You were engaged in a

3:26

very stressful and difficult task. Some

3:28

parting words They're from: Judge Want

3:30

Er Som thanking the jury and

3:33

Trump's Hush Money Trial. Now they've

3:35

delivered their historic guilty verdict and

3:37

can return to their regular lives.

3:39

So as a classic song, once

3:42

asked. Is. That all there is.

3:44

now that it's all over will

3:46

the jurors reveal their identities get

3:48

exposed by someone else or just

3:50

stayed back into the fabric of

3:53

civilian life and is they speak

3:55

what might they said social psychologist

3:57

julie black man has often explore

3:59

these questions in her work on

4:01

high-profile criminal cases. Good to

4:03

have you here, Julie. Thank you. I'm glad to

4:05

be here. These jurors were not sequestered during the

4:07

six-week trial, but their transition back to normal life

4:09

is undoubtedly going to take time. What can you

4:11

tell us about what these 12 people are likely

4:13

going through right now? The transition back

4:16

has got to be substantial, right? Especially

4:18

to the extent that they kept themselves

4:21

separate from information. They're instructed by the

4:23

court at the beginning of the trial.

4:26

And throughout the trial, they're regularly instructed

4:28

to stay off the internet, to avoid

4:30

any information that's relevant to the trial

4:32

at hand. And so one of

4:34

the things you would expect they would be doing at

4:36

this point, assuming that they followed that instruction, is

4:39

checking to see what was happening during

4:41

the course of the trial to try

4:43

to reestablish themselves in a sense, in

4:45

the world of news about this case.

4:48

If one or more of these 12 people were to

4:50

approach you and say, hmm, I'm torn. Should I disclose

4:52

my participation in this trial or not? What would you

4:54

advise them? It's a hard question.

4:57

In some respects, I'm very eager to

4:59

hear from the jurors, in particular because

5:02

Trump has derided

5:04

the process. He's talked about it as rigged

5:07

and the ultimate proof that it was not.

5:09

If hearing from jurors who say, I was

5:12

there, I was in the room, and

5:14

I'm willing to pierce the black

5:16

box of juror deliberations to

5:19

describe our process and to say that we

5:22

were fair, we were mindful of

5:24

the evidence, we asked questions that

5:26

demonstrated that our process in the jury

5:28

room was consistent with all that. And

5:30

what Judge Mertrand said to them at the end

5:33

was that he said, no one can make you

5:35

do anything that you don't want to do. The

5:37

choice is yours. And I would

5:39

actually expect that during this time, just after trial,

5:42

that one of the things that's happening for these

5:44

jurors is a kind of weighing of

5:46

whether or not it makes sense

5:48

for them to come forward. People

5:50

associated with the criminal and civil trials

5:52

of Donald Trump, from court officials to

5:54

witnesses, have been doxxed pretty often. What

5:57

are the chances that they can make

5:59

you do that? that somebody is going to be either

6:01

exposed against their will or choose to

6:04

step forward and then face an onslaught

6:06

of harassment online or in real life.

6:09

Yeah, I think people will not be

6:11

exposed against their will. I mean, I

6:13

think that the attorneys understand their obligation

6:15

to keep the jurors' names private. They

6:17

did have access. They had their names.

6:19

No one else did, but the trial

6:21

teams did. If jurors choose to come

6:23

forward, I think that one

6:25

of the things they're going to have to reckon with is

6:28

the likelihood that they will be doxxed or that there will

6:30

be other harassing events

6:32

that occur. It's already

6:34

the case that people who have

6:36

been participants in trials have been

6:39

heavily doxxed. I

6:41

actually have an article coming out in

6:43

a journal called The Champion where my

6:45

co-author Dawn Hughes talks about having

6:48

testified at the trial between Johnny

6:50

Depp and Amber Heard. She testified

6:52

as an expert witness for Amber

6:54

Heard and was crazily

6:56

doxxed by Johnny Depp's hollers

6:58

to the point where she really had to reach

7:01

out to the FBI for some protection while

7:03

she was a witness at the trial. We

7:06

know that trial participants

7:08

are vulnerable. Of course,

7:11

that's frightening for democracy and

7:13

for the protection of

7:15

the justice system. If you

7:17

have a chance to speak to one of these jurors,

7:19

what's the question that you most would like answered? What

7:22

a good question. I

7:24

think I would most want to hear about

7:27

how deliberations began. What

7:30

was the idea that first rose

7:32

to the surface where people

7:35

attached themselves to that idea,

7:38

revealed some measure of agreement with that

7:40

idea, and deliberations began? Of course, when

7:44

attorneys are giving summations, you want to know

7:46

when you've given a summation, where

7:48

ideas carry over into the

7:50

jury room. Do they dominate the

7:52

liberations, and if so, How?

7:55

Serving on a jury is always a form

7:57

of public service, whether it's a day or

7:59

a month. High profile or low profile.

8:01

but how would you describe the sacrifice

8:03

that people makes? The service the people

8:06

get as to be part of a

8:08

jury like this. Is the

8:10

second military service this nothing more we

8:12

ask of our fellow citizens. Than jury

8:15

service and to be willing

8:17

to serve in this trial

8:19

at this time it's of

8:21

knowledge of things like taxing

8:23

and to be grateful that

8:25

we have the kinda system

8:27

where people. Who do that and

8:29

to resign actually did an unusual thing.

8:31

It's the is Teresa let's see sent

8:34

to the assembled. Group: Is this

8:36

anyone here who doesn't want to

8:38

serve Razor his. If

8:40

for any reason at all and

8:42

that clear to that has the

8:44

room. Yeah, and that's an unusual

8:46

way to begin Jury Selection: Usually

8:48

the process is more individual and

8:50

each person is talk to separately.

8:52

To they were dressed as a group. Half of

8:55

them left and the remainder. They we

8:57

the people who are prepared to take the from. Who

8:59

are prepared to some act on behalf

9:02

of our country of the state and

9:04

to. Show up in court

9:06

every day on time and were

9:08

prepared to take the risks as

9:11

they surely new attended this process

9:13

and and deliver verdict and that

9:16

phrase and noble and so. Important

9:18

for democracy. Truly

9:20

Blackmon as a social psychologist who has worked

9:22

as a trial strategy consultant on many high

9:25

profile criminal cases. Thank you for talking with

9:27

us today, my pleasant. This.

9:29

Episode was produced by Katherine Think, Conor

9:31

Donovan and Erica Ryan with audio engineering

9:34

by Tiffany Very Castro. It was edited

9:36

by Patrick John Watson on an internet.

9:38

Woods or executive producer is Sammy yet

9:40

again and in case you haven't heard

9:43

you can now Enjoy! Consider this in

9:45

newsletter forms just like on the podcast

9:47

will help you break down a major

9:49

story of the day but you'll also

9:52

gets nor producers and hosts and will

9:54

share some moments of joy from the

9:56

all things considered team. You can sign

9:58

up at mtr.org/consider. This. Knew he'd. It

10:05

Consider this from Npr. I'm Ari

10:07

Shapiro. When

10:10

voters is hop during an election

10:12

season mean we ask questions and

10:14

follow up and he brings along.

10:16

To hear what we'll. Get closer

10:18

to issues people and your

10:20

vote at and fair elections

10:22

as visit Npr that was

10:24

election. This.

10:28

Message: Cancer meant he our sponsors

10:30

Spectrum Business who understands that small

10:32

business owners do with all. That's

10:35

why Spectrum Business provides Internet, phone,

10:37

Tv, and mobile packages just for

10:39

small businesses. Find one that works

10:42

for you at spectrum.com/business. This.

10:44

This message comes from NPR

10:46

sponsor Charles Schwab with its

10:48

original podcast on investing. Each

10:50

week you'll get thoughtful in-depth

10:52

analysis of both the stock

10:54

and the bond markets. Listen

10:57

today and subscribe at schwab.com/on

10:59

investing or wherever you get

11:01

your podcasts.