4:00

But he said, don't wait for their mouths to

4:02

open. As soon as their lips

4:04

move, you hit this one, you hit that one, you hit

4:06

the next one. And all I remember

4:08

is going back to school the next week and

4:10

I was at the edge of the playground just

4:13

been alone. And all I remember is

4:15

the teacher coming with these three kids bawling their

4:17

eyes out. I don't even remember doing it. And

4:20

they're just bawling their eyes out. And he just looked at me

4:22

and he asked these kids, where

4:25

are they? And they said, it's him. And

4:27

the teacher said, well, where are the rest of them? No,

4:30

it's him. And the teacher gave me

4:32

this big grin and he looked at the kids, called

4:34

them imbeciles and turned and walked off. Was

4:37

your grandfather a man you would often turn

4:39

to for those kind of moments in life?

4:42

Well, my grandfather was

4:45

the ultimate optimist and

4:47

he'd always talk about persistence, following

4:50

your dreams and setting your mind to the things

4:52

that you're passionate about. And

4:54

there was just this steely, steely

4:57

determination about him. But he

4:59

also was the most perfect gentleman.

5:02

Did he see something in you that other people might have

5:04

missed? I think so. And I think a

5:06

lot of my temperament was like his. Yeah,

5:09

he was very competitive, very, very competitive

5:11

and the relationship because of

5:13

the dyslexia. He

5:15

liked to be called Arthur, but his proper

5:17

name was Cecil Arthur Butler. And I checked

5:19

him out on Wikipedia and the entry is

5:21

short, but this is what it says about

5:24

your grandfather in Wikipedia. Cecil

5:26

Arthur Butler was born in England and migrated to

5:28

Australia with his family in about In

5:31

1917, he was apprenticed to become a

5:33

tool jig and gauge maker at the

5:35

Lithgow Small Arms Factory. In

5:38

1921, he transferred to the Australian Aircraft and

5:40

Engineering Company at Mascot in Sydney. In

5:43

1923, he obtained his pilot's license. In

5:46

1930, he designed, built and tested a

5:49

small all metal high winged monoplane. And

5:52

in 1931, he piloted a compass swift

5:55

from England to Australia in

5:57

the record time of 9 days, 1 hour

5:59

and 42 minutes. Did

6:02

he tell you stories about his life in the skies when

6:04

you were a kid? He did, he used

6:06

to talk about that and he told me one time he

6:08

was flying over the pillar, he had passengers, and

6:11

he saw a dry creek bed and the plane

6:13

had broken down. So he went to glide it

6:15

down, seeing the creek would be the

6:17

best place to land it. And when he got closer

6:19

there was boulders there. So

6:22

he saw some dead trees, so he stalled

6:24

the plane onto the trees and they collapsed

6:26

and made a gentle landing that damaged

6:28

the wings and they all had to walk out. There

6:30

were all kinds of stories like that and just

6:33

the early days of trying to start

6:35

the email service across to Adelaide and constantly

6:38

breaking down and walking out and the train

6:40

would beat the planes, just

6:42

the hardships of the early days. He

6:44

broke that flying world record in a

6:47

bit to get home in time to propose

6:49

to his then girlfriend who became your grandmother

6:51

Doris. What do you know about how he

6:53

met Doris in the first place? Well he

6:55

met at Barnes-Dommeschoo and up for a joy

6:57

flight and then often after

6:59

that he kept returning to Turewina to see her.

7:02

And my great

7:05

grandfather, Doris' dad, he

7:08

actually ran the general store there in Turewina.

7:10

He sold you all the goods, he was

7:12

the doctor, the dentist, the undertaker and he

7:14

had a book and he'd actually go out

7:17

to houses and people trusted him as the

7:19

doctor. So my grandmother

7:21

actually was the daughter of

7:23

the most important person in town and

7:26

there's photographs of my grandfather refuelling the

7:28

compass rift out the front of the

7:30

general store in Turewina. So

7:33

he met her and took a real

7:35

shine to her. Why did he then go

7:37

to England? Well my grandfather

7:39

was a very very shy man, late

7:41

developer, lack

7:43

social confidence and

7:45

obviously lack confidence in women and he was

7:48

just so overwhelmed by being in love that

7:50

it was very daunting and he

7:52

thought by separating himself he maybe get over

7:54

the problem but it actually

7:56

made the problem worse. So he'd been in

7:58

England for three months. and

8:01

received a letter which would have

8:03

taken about six weeks to arrive from a

8:05

friend saying if you don't return to Australia

8:07

you're going to lose your girl. And

8:09

then the reality struck him that

8:13

feeling awkward about being in love was not

8:16

as important as losing her. So

8:18

what did he decide to do about it? How did he

8:20

go about it? Well, and he

8:22

always says this, he said that for

8:25

some reason he travelled up to the Wirral and

8:28

visited an aunt and uncle that he

8:30

never met before. And

8:32

when he was staying there, that's when he

8:34

received the letter and he jumped on

8:36

a pushbike and went

8:38

riding through the countryside to clear his head.

8:41

And then he saw a plane and he chased

8:43

this plane all the

8:46

way to this aerodrome. And just as

8:48

he got there another plane came in that

8:50

really caught his attention and that was the Comper

8:52

Swift. This was a fellow by

8:54

the name of Nick Comper. So he

8:56

was designing these planes and

8:59

my grandfather, literally when he pulled the

9:01

plane up, my grandfather spoke to him

9:04

and he built such a trust for my

9:06

grandfather immediately. He let my grandfather take the

9:08

plane for a fly. So this is

9:10

1930, 1931? 1931

9:14

and planes have stopped being biplanes at

9:17

this point. They're now monoplanes, these metal

9:19

monoplanes. This is the revolution in aviation.

9:21

That's right. Well, the first steel monoplane,

9:23

which my grandfather was the first designed

9:25

airworthy in Australia, that was the year

9:27

before. That's right. These are monoplanes. So

9:29

what plan did he then devise with

9:32

this Nicholas Comper? Well, at first

9:34

Nicholas Comper thought, well, why didn't it come and work for me?

9:37

And then my grandfather said, no, I really need to

9:39

get back to Australia. And

9:41

then instantly Nick Comper put

9:44

two and two together and said, well, take

9:46

this plane back to Australia, make my

9:48

little sports aeroplane famous. And

9:51

it's great for my business and get home to

9:53

the prize. Well,

9:55

that's a nice thing to decide, but then there's the

9:57

doing of it, to fly a small

9:59

plane like that. that all the way from England

10:01

to Australia. What was the route that he was

10:03

going to take? Well, he took the route, he

10:05

went to Marseille first, then he went across to

10:07

Italy, then he went across

10:09

to Greece, to Syria, Iraq, over

10:13

to Karachi, across to

10:15

Calcutta, Arangoon, Kuala

10:17

Lumpur and then down through Indonesia

10:19

to Darwin. And when

10:21

he was about to take off, he

10:24

was interviewed and he said he

10:26

loved this little aeroplane, he thought it was

10:28

the most remarkable small aeroplane produced. And

10:31

he said quite easily, I could break the

10:33

record, weather permitting. And he

10:36

had five days of horrific weather. And

10:38

he was also wasted half a

10:41

day in jail in Italy and there was another...

10:43

Whoa, hang on, what happened in Italy? This is

10:45

Mussolini's Italy, isn't it? So what happened in Italy

10:47

when he got there? Well, he'd

10:50

landed on a Air Force trip in

10:52

darkness and they'd had

10:54

no clue who he was landing there, the

10:56

communication hadn't got through clearly to what he

10:59

was trying to achieve. So

11:01

he was taken and locked up in prison. They

11:04

would have thought he was a spy, I suppose.

11:07

Possibly, possibly, yeah. So anyway, they

11:10

finally realised that he was actually generally trying to

11:12

break a world record because at first when he

11:14

said he was flying to Australia, they

11:16

said Austria and thinking, don't

11:19

give us that story, how could you be landing here

11:22

to go to Austria from England? Why would you come

11:24

this way? And then when they

11:26

actually realised, oh, Australia, they were going to let

11:28

him leave then after keeping him in jail for

11:31

that time. And then they made him stay in

11:33

a hotel and fly in daylight. And

11:36

he was quite happy to fly through any conditions at any

11:38

time. Because he had to get back to

11:40

Doris. Yep. So then you said

11:42

he entered a storm. Well, he entered a storm going

11:45

across the Mediterranean and he

11:48

was just tossed about, that

11:50

was a pretty horrific storm. Then

11:53

he had some dust storms going

11:55

around Iraq. So he had more storms there with

11:58

visibility and dust. Very, very...

12:00

difficult flying conditions. He

12:02

had beautiful conditions flying over to Karachi in the

12:04

desert at night with a full moon. How did

12:06

he talk about that? It was almost

12:08

like Alibaba on a rug, and

12:11

it was just this tranquility and reflection. And

12:13

he said, the mere mortals on earth

12:15

never ever get to see this. He

12:18

just felt so privileged to be so

12:21

alone, but so in one with

12:24

his environment. And then when

12:26

he got into India proper. In those

12:29

days Karachi was still India. He

12:31

had to fly across to Calcutta. And

12:33

he'd said when he flew in the north

12:36

of Queensland in tropical weather, he

12:38

thought he'd seen the worst of tropical rainstorms.

12:41

And for some reason, the southwest monsoon

12:43

was running late that

12:45

year. And he got caught in

12:47

the most torrential downpour,

12:49

tropical downpour. And he

12:52

said that he had no visibility, but he found

12:54

a railway line that he knew was leading to

12:56

Calcutta. And he had to

12:58

get the plane down feet above the

13:01

telegraph poles going along the line. And

13:03

he said that the weather got

13:06

so bad that he could only see where

13:08

he's going by looking underneath him as he

13:10

crossed these poles one by

13:12

one for hundreds of miles.

13:14

And occasionally having to quickly swerve a bridge

13:16

or an object. And when he was going

13:19

through this mountainous area, he had to zigzag.

13:22

But the concentration with

13:24

the open cockpit, this horrific pounding that

13:26

he was taking, I mean, it was

13:28

incredible. What the rain lashing his face

13:30

and lightning around him and all of

13:32

that. Yep. Well, just absolutely

13:35

severe. It would be like water

13:37

torture. So he got through the

13:39

storm, found his way

13:41

down through Indonesia, as you say, then

13:43

to Darwin and then to the airstrip

13:45

at Turoina in New South Wales, just

13:47

north of Dubbo. Tell me

13:49

about his attempt, how he was coming

13:51

into land at Turoina. Well, he got

13:53

held up a couple of days once

13:55

he'd broken the record in Darwin, purely

13:57

because there were the local dignity. trees

14:00

that wanted him to come and see them

14:02

and he was tortured with his parties and

14:04

things. So eventually coming

14:07

into Turoena, he wanted to land in

14:09

front of my grandmother's house. And

14:12

every time he attempted to come in, the school was

14:14

across the road. So the kids used to run out

14:16

from the school, run in the middle of the road

14:18

and he'd have to abandon his landing. But

14:20

this happened several times. So he kept swooping

14:22

in, swooping in and then eventually he realised...

14:24

Only kids? He realised he was going to

14:27

kill one of them. So he went

14:29

down to the paddock where the aerodrome is

14:31

today. And

14:33

he landed and there was Doris. There

14:36

was a little entourage, he said, of cars coming

14:38

down the street and then

14:40

onto the paddock and then door opened and

14:42

there she was. Did

14:44

she ever talk about this with you? I

14:47

don't remember talking about that initial moment,

14:49

but she was so proud

14:51

of him. She'd always talk about it

14:54

was a bit of a king to her. So

14:58

they got married and they started a family.

15:00

Tell me how he got into the airline business after

15:02

that. Well, my

15:04

grandmother's family, the Garling family, had

15:07

a lot of clever businessmen and

15:09

there was going to be a

15:11

tender for the internal Empire Mail.

15:14

So a domestic section of the

15:16

Empire Mail and there was 40

15:18

odd tenders for it. And

15:21

my grandmother's family helped. My grandfather

15:24

formed the tender and they won the tender.

15:26

This is in 1934. So this would be

15:29

to take the internal mail. So

15:32

mail coming from Melbourne and Sydney.

15:35

And so they started the airline in Cuda Mundra

15:37

because that was the point where the mail was

15:39

sorted. And then he'd do a

15:41

milk run to Charleville and then he'd hand the

15:43

mail to Qantas to go on

15:45

to England. It's ironic that he was the

15:47

one to hand the first bag of mail

15:50

to leave this country after he received a

15:52

letter up to six weeks coming by sea.

15:56

So he said at this country airline, what

15:58

became of this airline? It

16:00

was actually a bit more than the country because

16:02

it was based at mascot. So it started there

16:04

and went and it wasn't long before he went

16:06

to mascot. He actually pioneered Gold Coast Airport. And

16:09

I really believe that the Gulpers there put

16:11

one of the terminals named after Butler for

16:14

what he achieved. I mean, Turaweena

16:16

was a major airport

16:18

before Dubber was, but he

16:21

pioneered all the services out to Western

16:23

New South Wales, North Western New South

16:25

Wales, up to Southern Queensland, down

16:28

the coast of New South Wales. So nearly every

16:31

destination that you'd go to today was

16:33

Pioneer Bath of Butler. And what became

16:35

of that airline? Well, unfortunately, there was

16:37

a man called Reg Ancett. And

16:40

if Reg Ancett didn't take my grandfather

16:43

over, he would

16:45

have been TAA in Butler Air Transport,

16:47

not TAA in Ancett. And

16:50

on his third attempt in what

16:52

was described as Australia's first filthy

16:54

corporate takedown, he got

16:56

the balance of power and took Butler

16:58

Air Transport off of grandfather. His

17:01

entry, like I said, in Wikipedia is quite small,

17:03

but it's kind of dramatic and really interesting. Why

17:06

do you think his name isn't recognized as

17:08

other great Australian aviators like Kingsford Smith and

17:10

Nancy Bird Walton? Well, this

17:12

is something that Nancy Bird Walton

17:14

always said before she died, that

17:16

he is the most understated aviator

17:18

in Australian history. And

17:21

part of my resurrecting the history

17:23

in Turoena is to acknowledge his

17:25

legacy because his legacy is up

17:28

with the greats of Australian aviation. I

17:30

think the main reason my grandfather's a

17:32

very humble man, and he

17:35

wasn't one to go to the social pages and do

17:37

all that marketing of himself, he was

17:39

a doer. He was more

17:41

interested in running the airline and an

17:43

airline that provided air services for everyone.

17:46

So if you were in Birkin those days and you wanted to get

17:48

to Sydney, you could get to Sydney. If

17:50

you were in Turoena and wanted a part for you, a

17:52

farmer wanted a part, you could get it the same day. As

17:55

long as you contacted Sydney, if you need

17:57

urgent medical services and you lived in Bewara

17:59

and you could get a free- flight to Sydney. So

18:02

he was more about, he was the people's airline.

18:05

So he did all this with his life and

18:07

he was dyslexic himself. So I'm imagining this must

18:09

have been a huge Philip for

18:11

you, a hugely inspiring figure for you. He

18:14

was a total enigma to me. And just to be

18:16

with him, to walk with him, I used to go

18:18

for walks with this dog round, he'd walk around Moronga

18:20

there and people would come to their fences just to

18:22

say hello and he tipped his hat to them. You

18:25

could almost hear the whisper Arthur's coming. And

18:28

when I used to go to visit him at the house,

18:30

it'd be people waiting to see him, people wanting to come

18:32

play chess with him. It was

18:34

like he was a superstar. But the

18:36

thing was, it

18:38

was his simplicity that was so attractive,

18:41

because he was just such a simple,

18:43

pure person. So

18:46

he taught you how to defend yourself in the

18:48

playground. And he encouraged you to play

18:50

rugby. How old were you when you started playing rugby?

18:53

I was seven. And every time I

18:55

used to go up to his place, he'd always say, he'd

18:57

go and put a hose out in the back garden and

18:59

tie some string on it. So we're

19:01

going to go and do some goal kicking. And when

19:03

we've done 10 in a row over the white string,

19:06

we'll go in and and I loved it. I wanted

19:08

to do it. And he said, because

19:10

when you play for Australia, you're not only going to be the halfback

19:13

and you're going to be the goal kicker

19:15

and the captain. So

19:18

there was always that in my head and I and

19:20

then actually the first rugby catch I had took me

19:22

aside and said, you'll play for Australia one day. So

19:25

it was just unlocked in my head. That's what I

19:27

was going to do. And there was no alternative because

19:30

that was just the way I'm brought up. What

19:33

was rugby for you then? It

19:35

was everything. I used to catch the

19:37

train down as a child. The chats

19:39

went over and I watch all four grades of

19:41

rugby. I'd watch every single

19:43

player. And I'd learn something for

19:46

every single player. And

19:48

I used to see some of the greats.

19:50

I'd look at that amazing goose step of

19:52

Russell Fairfax and probably

19:54

the one that struck me most one

19:57

day I was watching this game in the pouring

19:59

rain at Chatsworth Oval. And Gordon

20:01

were driving him all up to halfway. And

20:03

then suddenly from the other side of the

20:05

ruck right near the sideline, spun, this punched

20:08

up person of Jesus Christ. And

20:10

he came down the sideline. He had to fall back

20:12

to beat and he held him up with his most

20:14

perfect in it away. And he

20:16

slid and scored the try. And I

20:19

just remember after that game, this was,

20:21

this guy, I don't know

20:23

what it was. I just wanted to be like

20:25

him. I wanted to be a walking, talking, living

20:27

footballer. I didn't want to be anything else. And

20:30

that was Ray Price. And

20:32

Ray Price, I remember going home and mum said,

20:35

what's wrong? And Gordon lost

20:37

by a point that day. And I just said

20:39

it was Ray Price. So

20:42

you played club rugby. Then you

20:44

played first grade rugby in England. You

20:47

came back home and played first grade for Eastern

20:50

suburbs in Sydney against the

20:52

legendary Ella Brothers. What

20:55

was it that undid your career in rugby? Well,

20:58

I didn't know at the time, but there was a lot of

21:00

talk that I was about

21:02

to become an Australian halfback. I'd

21:04

had a brilliant year at East. I'd won

21:06

an award. I won quite a lot of man of the matches.

21:09

And I started to feel that

21:11

I had so much time and I was really wanting to

21:13

step up to that next level. And

21:17

there was talk that there may be a

21:19

tour and the president of the

21:21

club, Patty Rahilly, and the coach, Laurie Faye, took me

21:23

for a talk and said, you got to stay fit

21:25

because there's potentially a tour around. They

21:28

never told me whether that was coming from the

21:31

coaches or whether the club was pushing for me to get

21:34

recognition. But I knew at the time that there

21:36

was a lot of talk from the club side

21:38

that I was worthy of going to that next

21:40

level. So

21:43

anyway, when it didn't happen, I did all this

21:45

training in the off season. I started doing a

21:47

lot of sprint work and I remember a

21:50

really bad pain in my leg and

21:53

hip, just a big jar when

21:56

I was doing some track workout at Hensley Field. And

22:00

I used to do hill sprints to the cottage at

22:02

Centennial Park and my legs collapsed,

22:05

completely collapsed underneath me. And

22:08

then I started sharp pains in my back. And I remember

22:11

starting the season to trial, I couldn't even get through

22:13

training to do the trial and the coaches, I used

22:15

to have lost a lot of plays and

22:18

there's a lot of pressure on me to play and

22:20

being a rugby player so close to a dream, I

22:22

didn't see myself as anything else other than the footballer.

22:25

So did you try and ignore the pain then? Yeah,

22:27

and I tried to get through it, but I

22:30

was starting to get really crippled. I was

22:32

starting to get lame, but I

22:34

was just pushing myself through the games and

22:36

I just started to lose form and

22:39

it was extremely humiliating for me. Did you understand

22:41

what had gone wrong for you? Not

22:44

at that time, because I had terrible sciatica and

22:47

I kept going to all these doctors that X-ray

22:49

my knee, X-ray my back, they never ever went

22:52

near my hip. And then my body

22:54

closed down like a vice so nothing was

22:56

really moving. And I'd constantly have

22:59

pain down my arms and my leg and

23:01

I'd be going on a football field. For

23:05

the next three years, I'd

23:07

stop playing, I'd try to come

23:09

back, stop playing, try to come back. And

23:12

early 1985, I played

23:14

a first grade game against Parramatta and

23:17

after the game, I couldn't even lift

23:19

my leg six inches up to go on a bar stool. And

23:22

I was in a lot of

23:24

pain and I just smiled to

23:26

myself and said, well, you

23:28

push yourself through that game. You should

23:31

never ever been on that field, but

23:33

just stop punching yourself up, you got to let

23:36

go, it's over. What

23:38

was found to be wrong with your hip? I

23:41

had a severe labral hip tear, but this

23:43

was found years later because I gave up

23:45

on doctors telling me, one of them

23:47

actually said it was in my head and he was

23:49

supposed to be a very well-known

23:52

doctor, sports doctor. And

23:54

that was really crushing, when I'm dying through

23:56

so much pain, I lost all the

23:58

muscle in my left leg. And

24:00

when you had all the will in the world to be told

24:02

it's all in your head, oh dear. So

24:05

that was really difficult for me and obviously my

24:07

self-esteem was all around rugby. And were

24:10

you exacerbating the injury by trying to push through

24:12

it? Oh definitely, yeah. So you're just making it

24:14

worse? That's it. But there was no one

24:16

there and during those days there's no one out there to even

24:18

give you. Well there was no such

24:20

thing as an MRI and there was no such thing as having

24:24

the support that they do because it was the amateur

24:26

days and yeah rugby

24:28

was very raw in those days. So

24:30

what was happening with your state of mind in this period?

24:33

Well yeah I went through a lot

24:36

of problems just trying to come

24:38

to terms with the whole thing and then trying to

24:40

find a new direction of meaning in life. So

24:44

at least I got to the stage now I'm letting

24:46

go. I tried to coach for

24:48

a short period of time but I couldn't handle coaching

24:51

so I just knew I had to remove myself from rugby. Broadcast.

25:00

Podcast. So

25:35

we were talking before Mark about how you had an

25:37

injury to your hip that was terrible and only been

25:39

made worse over the years and it forced you to

25:42

give up rugby which is something you never envisaged at

25:44

this point in your life and so much of your

25:46

identity was bound up in it. What

25:48

did you do once you came to terms with the fact

25:50

that your life in rugby was over? Well

25:52

I was in business with my father, the travel company

25:55

and I started to put my energy

25:57

into that and my brother was a professional surfer and he

25:59

told me about it. this place on

26:01

an island called Catanduanus in the Philippines.

26:04

He said that he'd been told there was a

26:06

fantastic surf break there. So

26:09

I went to investigate the setup surfing tours

26:11

there and I found

26:13

this location and when I got there

26:15

there was absolutely no surf whatsoever. It

26:17

was just flat ocean in May and

26:20

I just sat on this headland with

26:22

a camera and waited and waited and

26:24

waited for probably two or

26:26

well over two hours and then suddenly I saw this

26:28

dark line out in the ocean and

26:31

the dark line got closer and closer and closer

26:34

and it hit the reef and

26:37

this perfect wave filled across the reef and

26:39

I got the picture, took that

26:41

picture home and it made centerfold

26:44

of the winter surfing snaps magazine

26:46

owned by Trax and

26:49

I named it Majestic and

26:51

after that we got all these phone calls of people wanting

26:53

to go there and we started

26:55

tours there but actually the first tour we

26:57

took there the surf was amazing the whole

26:59

time. Anyway on that island I

27:02

realized that the tourism side of it actually

27:04

was causing social problems there. I

27:06

thought what have I created you know because once

27:08

you go to a remote place and you start

27:10

bringing foreigners all the things come with it like

27:13

the marijuana, the girls and all that sort of

27:15

thing and I remember the local priest just staring

27:17

at me saying what have you done and I

27:19

actually realized that surf has started fighting over the

27:21

waves and I caused a problem. I didn't, you

27:24

know, certain people were happy they were

27:26

making money but it actually was a problem.

27:28

You thought you were introducing people to paradise

27:30

and they kind of ruined the paradise. Well

27:32

it was like that and there was only

27:34

so much service that could go there and

27:37

also yeah it was causing social problems as

27:39

well. Dad and I fell out in business

27:41

in the Philippines and I actually lived kind

27:45

of like in the slums and I had to find ways to make

27:47

money selling boxing tickets to tourists

27:49

made some ice cream sold some ice

27:51

cream did all sorts of things but

27:53

it taught me everything because I wasn't

27:56

living or surviving and it was this

27:58

hypervigilant life and it really taught me

28:00

a lot about myself and

28:02

I noticed there was a lot of children's street

28:05

kids in and around the local town

28:07

of Verac and while I was

28:09

waiting at the airport one day

28:11

I saw a boxing gym and

28:13

I thought Filipinos

28:15

love boxing. Maybe I could

28:17

start a boxing gym for kids there and

28:20

I met up with a big promoter and

28:22

a manila called Gabriel Allorda because his dad

28:24

was the greatest Filipino boxer to date at

28:27

that time and he said if you

28:29

want to start a gym down there I can give you a trainer

28:31

to live down there and I can build a

28:33

ring and give you bags and everything. So

28:35

I struck up the conversation with the Vice Governor

28:37

who gave me space in a government

28:39

building in the town square and

28:41

then I got a cottage for the trainer to come

28:43

and live there and I would just send the money

28:46

over and sponsor the gym and if the kids didn't

28:48

have anywhere to live they could live with the trainer

28:50

and I'd send money over so they could feed the

28:52

kids. Were you happy doing that? It

28:55

was because it was creating something and

28:57

giving something. I actually felt

28:59

more satisfaction out of giving than

29:02

the commercial side of tourism. It

29:04

also, when I went across there I saw this

29:06

young kid and I just looked at

29:08

him when he was training and he was trying to get my attention.

29:11

He's special. He's special.

29:13

I've seen great footy players, I've seen great

29:15

things. This kid's going to be something. Who

29:18

was this boxer? What was his name? I'm Neil

29:20

Baratilio and I had to transfer

29:22

my rugby skills into boxing training pretty

29:24

quickly because he didn't have a trainer

29:27

so I had to be his trainer.

29:29

Eventually I got R&L to Australia when

29:32

he was 18, this straight kid and

29:34

before long he was Australian champion and

29:36

ranked number one in the world. Then

29:38

Spike Cheney's management was very interested in

29:41

me and now I've got a very

29:43

famous Australian Olympian boxer, I've got R&L

29:46

and things just started growing and I started to

29:48

get a reputation as being a really good trainer.

29:50

Yes, so you took Spike Cheney to the US

29:52

and to the UK. What was it

29:54

like on the boxing circuit in those days, in the 1990s?

29:58

Well, I found my first trip to

30:00

England was fantastic. I really

30:02

enjoyed the old firm and the old British way

30:04

of boxing. We fought at York, Old Bethnal Green.

30:06

Was that when people used to show up wearing

30:08

dinner jackets, still in those days? That's right. And

30:11

you get all the old governors and all that

30:13

round the ring. And we won that fight against

30:15

Gary Shogun Logan, it was main event on British

30:17

television. And all these old men

30:19

got up and well done, lads. Well done. We won

30:21

fair and square. There was just

30:24

this honour about those characters in those

30:26

days. And then we went to America

30:28

after winning that fight. And

30:30

we were offered to stay with the promoter in

30:32

England with Glennix Lewis, the heavyweight champion of the

30:34

world. And if we look back

30:36

at that now, that option should have been taken. The

30:40

management at the time thought going to America was

30:42

a bigger thing. And Spike

30:45

didn't fight that well in America. He

30:47

fought a very reserved fight. He won

30:49

every round, but he wasn't,

30:51

it didn't attract the audience. So we lost the

30:54

opportunity getting a promotional contract in America. How

30:56

is the scene different there in America and the

30:59

UK compared to Australia? Boxing's

31:01

huge. You do have a really

31:03

educated public over there. And promoting

31:05

boxing in those countries is run by

31:07

the networks. So big promoters,

31:09

if you want to have events, you've

31:11

got to get the contract with the network. So it's

31:14

such a bigger market with a lot more people

31:16

that know about boxing. Yeah, it's like Norman Mailer

31:18

was writing articles on boxing for Esquire magazine in

31:21

those days in the United States too, wasn't he?

31:23

So it was a much bigger thing over there.

31:26

Yes. And massive tradition, you know,

31:28

the heavyweight champion of the world was normally

31:30

an American and that was

31:32

supposed to be the biggest thing in sport. And how

31:34

different was the scene in Australia though, compared to that?

31:36

Well, it's a small scene, small

31:38

promoters. CDO, then over there?

31:42

There is that side. I think any

31:44

of the lower level promotions run by

31:46

small promoters, they can get away with

31:48

a lot more. You know, you're fighting

31:50

the promoters, boy, if you didn't

31:53

knock him out, you're not going to win. Just things

31:55

like that. But when you get

31:57

to that higher level, that professional level

31:59

where money's involved, giant networks. It

32:01

is actually less corrupt if there's any

32:04

corruption but you've got you could you

32:06

could honourable judges and good honourable promoters

32:08

and then ones that are

32:11

in it just for the money. So

32:13

you had a daughter around about this time and you became

32:15

a single dad bringing up your daughter. Was that why you

32:17

decided to get out of the industry for a while? Yeah

32:20

the early days well she just come to the gym

32:22

with me was a little girl so she got to

32:24

know all the fighters. She had a very interesting upbringing

32:26

for a little girl and then she got

32:28

to know Johnny Lewis at Costa Zoo. She got

32:30

to meet Jeff Fenwick and then suddenly yeah she

32:33

was about to start school and I realised that

32:35

I'd only had one boxer in the gym at

32:37

that time. He joined me after the 2000 Olympics

32:39

by the name

32:41

of Sakio Bika. So he had two

32:43

fights with me and I realised that it's going to

32:45

take me four or five years to get him to

32:47

the top. I wanted Arnel to retire so

32:50

I thought this is the time that

32:52

I retire and focus on my daughter.

32:54

What was it like to get out of that? Was it as painful as

32:56

getting out of rugby? No it was totally

32:58

different. I just felt that I've achieved beyond

33:01

dreams to be able to come and just go

33:03

straight into sport and so quickly get the kind

33:05

of results that I got. You

33:07

know I had to be pretty happy with it. So

33:10

when I'd taken the break from the sport actually

33:12

it became a really really hard time for me

33:14

because I was so used to the adrenaline world.

33:17

I hadn't really addressed

33:20

the fact that dad and I had a bit of a

33:22

breakup and I used to be so close to my dad

33:24

so it sort of affected our relationship. Also

33:27

just the hardships of living in the

33:29

Philippines and then going through

33:31

extremely difficult times with court cases and things

33:33

trying to get custody of my daughter when

33:35

she was a baby. So I

33:38

was drained so actually I had to confront

33:40

a lot of personal issues and it became

33:42

quite a toxic period in my life. So

33:46

after you'd done that how were you

33:48

brought back into boxing again? Well during that

33:50

toxic period I was speaking with a Kleinemeine

33:52

actually. Robbie Ables was Sir Peter Ables daughter

33:54

and she was a psychologist

33:56

and she just started me to think that I

33:58

needed to pick up a book. and read

34:00

something. I walked straight

34:02

into this bookshop and there was a book facing

34:04

me called Medicine for the Mind. It was a

34:06

Buddhist book. I grabbed it and I read it.

34:09

I said, this is what it's all about. I told

34:12

her that I got this book and she said, I've

34:14

got a friend who goes to this temple for meditation.

34:17

So I went there and I

34:20

must have been a bit spiritually bankrupt because as

34:23

soon as I started meditating I just saw this

34:25

explosion like a clearance in my brain. I remember

34:27

going to the gym the next day and everyone

34:30

thought I'd had a new girlfriend. So

34:33

I said, I better start learning to meditate.

34:36

And I just worked on meditating and it really calmed me

34:38

and it allowed me to get through so many of those

34:40

issues. And then four and

34:42

a half years after I quit with Sakyo, he's come to me

34:44

and he said, Mark, will you

34:46

come out of retirement and train me? It's

34:49

the Sakyo Big Hose. That's right. And

34:51

I had this brand new tool, how to

34:53

just get really focused and calm. And I

34:56

had a little discussion with someone about it because

34:58

I was a little bit nervous about going because

35:01

boxing world, you're either in it or you're

35:03

out. You can't be halfway. And

35:05

the energy that you have when you're

35:07

in combat in the warrior world, because

35:10

you're so focused and ready to go

35:13

into these huge conflicts in

35:15

a way. Anyway, so I decided to take

35:17

Sakyo on again. And by this

35:19

stage, he was ranked in the world as a

35:22

middleweight and he was the Oran Pacific champion. And

35:24

we're trying to think, well, we try to

35:27

get a title to FETs of his orient

35:29

title in Japan. So we're trying to do

35:31

that. And then Angelo Heider, his daddy, Green's

35:33

trainer and promoter, contacted us and said, I've

35:36

got him a fight. If he signs a deal with

35:38

me in Germany against Marcus

35:41

Babe at the WBC super middleweight championship

35:43

of the world. So

35:45

suddenly we're off to Germany and

35:48

Sakyo was winning the fight and

35:50

there was a head clash and Babe was cut under the

35:52

eye. And the referee was called

35:54

over by the promoter and he brought the doctor up.

35:57

And there was a bit of shenanigans going on

35:59

in the corner. and they called the cut too

36:01

hard to go on. And normally if it's the

36:03

cut under the eye, they let the fight go

36:05

on, but they stopped the fight. So Sakio came

36:07

away with only a draw in that fight. And

36:10

then we're off to America again for a Super

36:13

8 tournament with Showtime. And

36:15

when we're in America, Sakio got an injury

36:17

in sparring. So we went back to

36:19

the hotel room and he fell asleep and he woke

36:21

up, he couldn't move his arm. It was all swollen,

36:24

elbow. And

36:26

we had to pull out of that fight. Ended

36:28

up that he had fragments of bone offered from

36:30

his elbow. And I said, don't worry, as we

36:32

left the hotel, I said, we'll probably get offered

36:34

to fight Joe Cales Argy or something in England.

36:37

And sure enough, we got offered to

36:39

go to fight Joe Cales Argy, the

36:41

IBF and WBO Super Middleweight World Champion

36:43

in Manchester. And Joe Cales Argy had

36:46

been the British Sports Star of the

36:48

year and the greatest Super Middleweight Britain

36:50

ever produced. And

36:52

we fought him in the men's center in front of 22,000 people.

36:56

And Michael Buffer was the ring announcer.

36:58

He's the famous one for saying, the

37:01

thousands in attendance and the millions watching

37:03

around the world, let's get ready to

37:05

rumble. So this is the scene

37:07

we're in. We've got 22,000

37:09

hostile people cheering against us and

37:12

millions watching around the world on TV. And

37:15

it was an absolute war and Sakio lost

37:17

on points but gave him the hardest fight

37:19

he'd ever had. And their promoter Frank Warren

37:21

was running around the ring panicking, thinking they're

37:23

gonna lose the title. It's kind of interesting

37:26

being a Buddhist in the boxing world. Well,

37:28

I wouldn't say that I'm actually a Buddhist.

37:30

Or someone inspired by Buddhist philosophy. I'm inspired

37:32

by the philosophy. And the search for peace

37:34

as well. That's right. And

37:36

it's really, really funny because when you're actually

37:39

in the gym and training and doing all these things, there's

37:41

such a oneness. There's

37:44

such a presence, I called it letting go of a

37:46

sense of self. Oneness in the

37:48

combat, one against another. Well,

37:51

not so much that, but I always

37:53

say that to the fighters, not

37:56

about conquering others, it's about conquering yourself. And that

37:58

opponent is only there to test you against. yourself.

38:01

So there's a deep respect between the fighters.

38:04

It's the outside side of boxing.

38:08

It's the people taking opportunity, making money out

38:10

of the athletes. So when you say there's

38:12

a oneness, what is that oneness? To

38:15

be at that level and to train

38:17

and to get to know your movement and

38:19

to be so internalized. It's

38:22

very, very deep. It's very spiritual. It's

38:26

hard to describe, but it's... Do you mean like

38:28

the command of the mind or the kind of

38:30

the sync, the syncing of the mind

38:32

and the body? That's right. It's that total connection.

38:35

And then your environment, because you bring

38:38

in your environment to create energy. So you're

38:40

actually bringing energy through your body to externalize

38:43

it out in the art of

38:45

combat. So then

38:47

you decided to give away boxing once

38:49

and for all. I just decided

38:51

that it was wearing

38:53

me out. Sakya started to get

38:56

attracted to the American and the American promoters.

38:58

So I just realized that

39:01

relationship was drying up and

39:03

I gave... given boxing all I could give.

39:06

And then slowly I started to realize I

39:08

needed to get out of Sydney as well.

39:10

My daughter left home. I've done my bit

39:12

to bring my daughter up. I got to

39:15

that level. And

39:17

I needed to think about my life in the future

39:20

after boxing and where I'm going to live. I was

39:22

coming to the end of the road. I was doing

39:24

a physical business where I had to be training all

39:26

the time. And I needed

39:29

to make a big decision. And that's when I

39:31

started to go and spend weekends in Turoena. What

39:34

Turoena? Why did you want to go back there? Well,

39:37

this is an interesting thing. People say, why are you going

39:39

there? I said, I'm sowing seeds. And they

39:41

said, what are you sowing? I said, I've got to wait to see them

39:43

grow. And I

39:45

realized that I'd gone through such

39:47

a hard period of my life for literally

39:49

30 years, a tough life living, tough

39:52

battles and swimming across oceans and getting

39:54

washed up on the other side of

39:56

the sea. Massive well-tired of us. It's

39:59

big work. It's tough. commitment. It's

40:01

so different from the life that I grew up in.

40:03

So I was looking for peace. I

40:05

was looking for a safe place, obviously affordable

40:07

place to live, a realistic place to live

40:10

in the future. I

40:12

realised I was ready and I had

40:14

my mum living up the road and she used

40:16

to go out to Turoena as a school girl

40:18

flying with her friends and ride horses and stay

40:20

in the house. So I

40:22

just decided and I remember

40:24

I actually felt quite nervous about it. I'd

40:27

only been there in 2008 for the first

40:29

time ever. That was for celebration for the 70th

40:31

year of the aerodrome. And what did that town

40:33

look like to you when you went there? Just

40:36

this tiny little place with just a pub

40:38

and nothing else but settled under the war

40:40

on bundles, a beautiful location, absolutely beautiful place

40:42

Turoena. People should go there.

40:45

And when you went to the aerodrome that your grandfather

40:48

had made famous? Well, there was

40:50

something special there. It was this

40:52

instant. It was

40:55

something sacred to the family. It was

40:57

something I'd heard about as a child

41:00

and I realised it was the start of my

41:02

grandfather's dream and it was also the end of

41:05

it when Ancet came along because he actually terminated

41:08

Turoena because he didn't see

41:10

it as financially viable enough.

41:14

So you thought, I want to live there. So

41:16

what did you do about that? Well,

41:19

just one time after going up for the

41:21

weekend and staying in the cabin at the

41:23

caravan park, I just

41:25

went home and I said, I've got to write a letter to the owner

41:27

of that house, the airport house on the

41:29

aerodrome where I live now. And I said, if

41:32

you're ever interested in selling, because I said, I'll

41:34

be in Turoena on the 1st of June. He

41:36

texted me about two days before and said, contact

41:39

me when you get there. So

41:41

I met him at Pouring with Rain. The

41:44

place was a shambles, overgrown garbage

41:46

everywhere. And he kept saying if I was ever

41:48

interested in selling and he was, I could just

41:51

see his thinking after Butler's grandson,

41:53

he's probably loaded. He's just thinking about how much

41:55

money could get out of me. But

41:57

anyway, eight months later, I took my mum and

41:59

my daughter with me. My daughter decided to leave

42:01

her boyfriend and come with me. And mum

42:05

was living in a second floor apartment and she

42:07

couldn't get down the stairs. She'd have back injury.

42:10

The doctor at Northbridge was really upset that I was taking her

42:12

out there. My brother and sister were really angry that I was

42:14

taking her out there. She said, there's nothing out there. What are

42:17

you going to do? Anyway,

42:19

I've got mum out there and her health started

42:21

to improve so much. She was so happy there.

42:23

All the memories came back and the beautiful location

42:25

and the mountains around her, just all the childhood

42:27

dreams came back and she started to be able

42:30

to walk nearly a kilometre up to the road

42:32

and back on our driveway. And

42:34

friends had come over and put barbecues on

42:36

and the fireplace. We'd have the open fires

42:38

and she had a wonderful

42:41

couple of years there, but the dementia hit in

42:43

and so we had to move it to Galar

42:45

Hospital. But she lasted five more years

42:47

when a lot of people only gave her a year

42:49

or two. And you're still living in that airport house

42:51

at Turoine Aerodrome. What's this house like?

42:54

Well, it's 116 years old. It's Cypress Pine and

42:58

Hardwood. Tin

43:00

roofs, very high ceilings, gets very

43:02

cold in winter. We've had some

43:05

zero temperatures and

43:07

very hot in summer, especially with the

43:09

Western sun hitting onto the veranda there.

43:11

It's a beautiful home looking up to the warm

43:13

bungles. And I can lie in

43:15

bed if a plane lands early in the morning and

43:18

see the plane just pass my bedroom window. I'm

43:21

there alone in this big old house with six bedrooms.

43:24

So it's a challenge to keep busy and

43:26

stay mentally strong and keep fit. But

43:29

I did some beautiful walks in the mountains. And

43:32

I just love my drives along dirt

43:34

roads, looking up at Wedgetail Eagles, watching

43:36

a goanna run across and just

43:39

seeing that changing colours flicker

43:41

across the warm bungled mountains every day. It's never

43:44

ever the same. So it's

43:46

a beautiful place. It's a peaceful place. And

43:49

I found a purpose. I

43:51

started off being a farm hand and

43:54

then I got thrown in the lifeline by a friend

43:56

of mine who saw me in Coonan Barra when he

43:58

worked for New South Wales Rugby. And what

44:00

are you doing with New South Wales Rugby now?

44:02

Well, I'm a Development Officer, so I

44:05

feel this is such an important job because

44:08

we are pioneering rugby

44:10

to be a totally inclusive

44:12

sport. We're accessing

44:15

remote towns such as Canambal,

44:17

Wolgate, Borah, all that part.

44:20

And we're making rugby accessible for everybody. This

44:22

is an issue, isn't it? Because we're not

44:24

talking about rugby, we're talking about what is

44:26

sometimes called Rugby Union, which is sometimes seen

44:28

as a quote unquote gentleman's sport. Well, it's

44:31

the mother's game, but if you look back

44:33

in 1895, the Northern Unions, Lancashire and

44:38

Yorkshire, asked London could we pay our

44:40

players because we have a lot of

44:42

working class players that can't afford to

44:45

travel and play or injuries in

44:47

time off work. And

44:49

they said if they can't afford to play

44:51

rugby, they shouldn't play. Now, the mother was

44:54

a very, very cold mother, so

44:56

the children ran away and formed the game rugby

44:58

league. But what we've got

45:00

now is a mother that's opening her

45:02

arms up and saying, you're welcome, we love you,

45:04

come and play. How are

45:06

you making it more inclusive then? Well, we're going

45:09

into primary schools in these towns. You've got a

45:11

lot of town kids, you've got indigenous kids, a

45:14

lot of indigenous population right throughout these towns, and

45:16

say come and play the game. You

45:18

know, you're welcome, come and join our clubs. We've

45:21

still got barriers, but there's still some selfish

45:23

people out there that want to keep it

45:25

as a social club for parents, probably don't

45:27

consider the kids. And

45:29

the actual social benefits have been totally inclusive.

45:31

Because I think it's also going to help

45:33

socially a lot of towns by rugby

45:36

being that middle class sport, that

45:38

it was something that only

45:41

wealthy people could go and play. So

45:43

I really think that all of us, every single

45:45

human being that's involved and loves rugby and

45:48

has suffered the pain of last year's World Cup,

45:51

needs to contribute to and open

45:53

our arms. It's just, it's bigger

45:55

than the game to make it inclusive

45:57

and help these kids get up. opportunity,

45:59

every child, black, white, brown, red or

46:01

rich or poor. You can always,

46:03

for those Indigenous kids, hold up the example of the

46:06

Ellington brothers in the game. What kind of

46:08

changes have you seen in the lives of some

46:10

of these Indigenous kids you've brought into this program?

46:13

Well, as the first school I ever had anything

46:15

to do with Galaga Bone Central School, and

46:17

I remember a kid that I met the other

46:19

day, so in one of our employment programs, she

46:21

said, until you brought rugby here, we didn't even

46:23

know what it was. And

46:26

I started teaching that school sevens through

46:28

our New South Wales Rugby Development Program.

46:31

We started teaching the sevens and we entered them

46:33

in some tournaments and they were brilliant and actually

46:35

qualified for the Primary School Championships in Sydney. Two

46:38

of the boys got a tour of Newington

46:40

and got scholarships. And one of

46:42

those boys is playing for New South Wales School

46:44

Boys at Fullback this week against Queensland, Talis McEwan.

46:47

And Talis has inspired a lot of kids. So

46:50

we want to be like Talis. We

46:52

want to go to boarding school. We want to play

46:54

rugby. So there's more kids

46:57

coming next year into boarding schools that

46:59

we're creating programs for. And

47:01

there's a couple of really, really special kids

47:03

that are fantastic kids. And

47:05

the opportunity this will give it will completely

47:08

change their lives forever, change their families lives

47:10

forever. And it's helping to change

47:12

their community's life. It's creating optimism. You

47:16

said when you had to leave the game of rugby because

47:18

of your injuries, it was like leaving your spiritual home. Does

47:21

it feel like you've returned to that spiritual home?

47:23

Definitely. I don't feel I have a spiritual responsibility

47:25

to the game, that everyone has

47:27

the opportunity to play rugby. Mark,

47:30

it's been wonderful speaking with you. This is such a

47:32

lovely story. Thank you so much. A

47:34

pleasure, Richard. So thank you for having me. Mark

47:36

Pitts. Mark is a former rugby player

47:38

and a former boxing trainer. And there

47:40

was a memoir that was written by

47:42

Mark's grandfather, Cecil Arthur Butler, about his

47:44

record-breaking flight across from London to Australia

47:46

that he wrote some years ago called

47:48

Flight to a Lady and the Family,

47:51

who just re-released this book. I'm

47:53

Richard Fidler. Thanks for listening. You've

48:02

been listening to a podcast of

48:04

conversations with Richard Feidler. For

48:07

more conversations interviews, please

48:09

go to the website

48:11

abc.net.au slash conversations.