0:01

Hellow, we're starting to fall apart

0:03

without Sophie. We really are. This

0:06

is cool people who did cool stuff. I'm

0:09

Maggie, that's Sharine. There's

0:12

no Sophie. There's no Sophie.

0:14

There's no power where you are, So that's

0:16

true. I'm literally recording this on my backup

0:19

battery because I'm a prepper and

0:21

my power is out because I live. Yeah, and y'all are worth

0:24

it. This is what how do you mean

0:26

to us? That's right? Ian

0:29

as our audio engineer on Woman wrote our

0:31

theme music, and Stonewall is why

0:33

I briefly had rights as a transperson. That's

0:36

what we're talking about today, Stonewall. This

0:38

is part four. Go listen

0:40

to the other parts. Yes, or you're

0:43

a sucker. What are you fucking doing

0:45

if you're not doing that together?

0:49

So Stonewall is sort of used to getting rated.

0:51

They paid off the cops, so

0:53

they usually had a heads up when the cops rolled

0:55

in. The bartenders would jump over the bar and pretend to

0:57

be patrons so they wouldn't get singled out, which

1:00

is pretty clever, honestly. And

1:04

usually they got rated, like I said, early in the night

1:06

and on weeknights, but not this

1:08

time. On weekends,

1:11

the bars crowded as fuck. The floor

1:13

plans say maximum occupancy was around one

1:15

hundred and eighty people or some shit, but

1:17

there were usually at least two hundred people there on weekends.

1:20

At the time of the raid. There were like different

1:22

estimates put it between like two hundred two hundred

1:24

and ten or so people. And

1:27

there's no fire exits in this place that has already

1:29

burned only a few years back, like five years

1:31

earlier. This place is burned. There's no fire

1:33

exits and no crowding it because people

1:35

are desperate fucking dance. Yeah,

1:38

I mean life back then wasn't exactly great.

1:41

Yeah, you gotta get your kicks where you or you could,

1:44

right, right, So now

1:46

we're going to introduce this week's villain. Though

1:49

he's kind of a he's like an anti

1:51

villain, Like he's still a villain, but you know how like

1:53

an anti hero is like a hero who

1:55

kind of sucks. Right, he's

1:58

the villain, but he's

2:01

that doesn't suck completely. Yeah,

2:03

I mean, he's like doing awful, awful things.

2:05

His actions absolutely suck, but

2:08

his like motivation is interesting. It's a clash

2:10

of moralities. His name is Deputy

2:13

police Inspector seymour Pine, and

2:16

he's a veteran cop. He's been a cop almost

2:18

thirty years by nineteen sixty nine. He took a

2:20

break from being a cop to go fight the Nazis. And

2:23

he had the specific unique thing going for him

2:25

that set him aside from other cops at the time. He

2:28

wasn't corrupt. WHOA wow,

2:31

ye, I didn't expect that to

2:34

be what you were going to say, to be honest, surprise,

2:37

surprise. And what

2:39

I find so interesting about this guy, what I kind of like

2:41

about him is, from my point of view, this

2:44

is like strong evidence against the institution of

2:46

police, because this guy should have ruled. He wanted

2:48

to do what was right. He was actually

2:50

and genuinely a lawful person as far as

2:52

I can tell, but since laws are shitty,

2:54

judges a morality, he runs around

2:57

and puts people into cages for a living. And

3:00

and he probably wasn't personally a bigot,

3:03

but he was an agent of a bigoted system.

3:05

And the difference matters inasmuch as we can understand

3:08

those systems and dismantle them.

3:10

And years later he said, quote, if

3:13

what I did helped gay people, then I'm glad.

3:16

Well yeah,

3:18

and he's not being self congratulatory.

3:21

I think he's acknowledging his role in this like bad

3:23

system. In a later

3:25

documentary, he says, quote, you knew

3:27

they broke the law, but what kind of law was it?

3:31

Well, okay, see wore

3:33

Okay, yeah, I know. I mean he's about to go beat

3:36

up people and fondle their genitals and shit. Like he's

3:38

not like, he's like, I

3:40

didn't know it's gonna going that far down. Okay,

3:42

Yeah, I mean like because because that's because he's rating

3:44

the place, right, and that's was involved in rating

3:47

a place. And he talks a bunch

3:49

on TV shows and shit about that night about

3:51

how they saw themselves as fighting the mafia,

3:53

but that they arrested gay people as a part of it to

3:55

boost their arrest numbers, because arresting gay

3:57

people was so easy because quote,

4:00

they never gave you any trouble. Well,

4:03

but you know, so he raided

4:05

Stonewall specifically what happened

4:07

first as two women undercover went

4:09

in posing as a butch fem couple. At

4:12

least one of them had been coming to the bar for a while.

4:15

It's just pretend they're ganging. In

4:17

quotes, they just love to do that, loves

4:19

to role play. Okay, yeah, exactly.

4:22

Yeah, So this woman posing as

4:24

a gay woman who may or may not have been posing, you

4:26

know who knows. Yeah, one twenty in the

4:28

morning, they raid. They've given

4:31

no warnings. The bars crowded

4:33

as fuck, everyone's drunk, and the night was

4:35

like really getting going, and a tiny

4:37

handful of cops think they could take the place down,

4:39

like literally, that guy Pines walks in and

4:42

says police were taking the place him.

4:46

I think it's so. I've read four and I've read

4:48

eight, and there's a I'm sure someone knows the exact

4:51

actual answer, but still very little people.

4:55

Wait, So at this point, sorry if I'm dropping

4:57

around. At this point, the mafia is a protecting

5:00

them anymore, Like they're not getting paid off, So

5:04

they are. But what it is is he works for

5:06

the vice squad the public morality right,

5:09

okay squad or whatever, and so he

5:11

is not part of the paid off cops. An

5:14

actually tension between the paid off cops and

5:16

him play a role in it later

5:18

Okay, okay, good to know. And so

5:21

Maggie Jigs are acid dealing

5:23

bartender. She jumps over

5:25

the bar with the money when and then when the cops question

5:27

her, she's like, oh, this is my money as a cigarette

5:30

girl, and they let her go. And

5:33

later later the mafia

5:35

is like, all right, you got away with the money, right, and she's like, oh

5:37

no, I'm sorry. They they got it all

5:43

fucking badass, I know. Um,

5:46

So they demand ID s making

5:49

to make sure everyone is dressed in gender appropriate

5:51

clothing, and the cops are saying all kinds

5:53

of homophobic shit that I'm not going to repeat. Mister

5:56

Pine is clearly not stopping them. Maybe he's

5:58

doing it himself, and

6:01

and some of the queens are like, you know what,

6:04

fuck you fuck this, And people start

6:06

refusing to show ID, and

6:09

they like pull all the queens aside to one place and

6:11

like show ID and like start being really shitty

6:13

and and they're like not fuck you. And

6:15

so the cops like, fine, we're resting basically everyone,

6:19

but a crowd is starting to

6:21

gather outside. This is the fucking gighborhood.

6:24

And so as arrested people are let

6:26

out of the bar, they start like striking

6:29

poses and the bar and the crowd

6:31

is like shouting out, like applause meter range, I

6:34

give it a seven. You know, as the incredible.

6:37

Yeah, yeah,

6:39

And a pigmobile shows up to

6:42

take the arrest rested people a van arrest vanum,

6:45

and the crowd starts changing

6:48

and people start to boo no.

6:51

Someone shouts gay power and

6:53

they start singing we shall overcome okay,

6:56

and the cops they call for backup. They

6:59

get on their radio, they offer backup, and

7:01

then, as I've heard it, someone

7:03

unknown with a police radio was basically

7:06

like, never mind that order ignore

7:08

it. Well, that

7:11

is some I mean, that's like cinematic

7:13

shit, you know, it's just like, yeah, sneaky.

7:16

And so there's like two

7:19

main guesses about what this is, and the

7:21

most likely one is that the corrupt

7:23

cops from I can't remember what precincts,

7:25

six precincts or something, they're like,

7:27

what the fuck, don't shut down? Or a cash cow they're

7:30

like, no, don't send back up, you know, because

7:32

they get paid a fuck ton of money.

7:34

Do he takes place from going down? Yeah? They get

7:37

paid enough to never worry

7:39

about anything ever again. Yeah, totally.

7:42

Um, if you pay me two thousand dollars a week

7:44

now, i'd be set, you know, yeah,

7:46

I would protect you until

7:48

I tie. Yeah,

7:52

And it's also possible that there was a gay

7:54

activist with a radio in the place, and then the

7:57

the like least likely but sort of fun thing

7:59

that I've someone says maybe it was that gig

8:02

the lady cop was like getting

8:04

second thoughts, you know, that very likely.

8:06

I think my first thought was

8:09

that like someone stole the radio, but it

8:11

probably was one of the cops. That that's also possible.

8:13

Yeah, my thought was like someone

8:15

sold the radio and they were like nope, just kidding, yeah,

8:19

no, which which would be that would

8:21

be the coolest thing. Yeah, you know. And

8:24

so there's an awful lot of what sit off the riot

8:26

talk. It's part of the everyone trying to own

8:28

stonewall thing because people want to

8:30

not also because people want to not be left

8:32

out right. So a lot of it is like

8:34

oh, this trans woman through the first brick or whatever,

8:37

or you know, um, and there's

8:39

a lot of different but there's a lot of

8:41

different inciting incidents and what I think

8:43

matters. So I'm not going to say this

8:45

one was first. This one wasn't first. What I'm

8:48

going to say is that this riot was something else participated

8:50

in by the larger queer community.

8:52

Um, there's like almost not an identity

8:55

that isn't represented in this riot. And

8:57

there were a lot of inciting incidents, and

9:00

first and foremost, I will also say some of the stuff I've

9:02

seen about this is like, and then the violence started

9:04

when someone punched back, and

9:07

I'm like, that's not No. Violence starts when

9:09

someone hits someone, which the cops are

9:11

doing already. The cops started the

9:13

violence. What gets called the violence

9:15

is when it suddenly becomes two way violence. Interesting,

9:19

I mean checks out as far as cop

9:21

behavior goes, yea wi yeah,

9:25

And so you know, because

9:27

okay, the police. There's not only the violence of forcing

9:29

people to strip so you can like see or grab their

9:31

fucking junk, but also, for example,

9:33

a queen who was being let out the door was punched

9:36

in the face by a cop. In

9:38

response, queens started throwing coins

9:40

at the cop. A reference, they started throwing pennies,

9:42

basically being like, hey, we already bought you bitches, Like

9:45

what the fuck are you doing? You know, here's the more money,

9:47

fuck you? You know. Yeah, yeah,

9:49

there's a butch lesbian in men's clothes who

9:52

really actively wanted to not get arrested.

9:54

This was probably a

9:57

black lesbian named Stormy de Laverney.

10:00

She denied this for years, and then later

10:02

she was like, yeah, it was me. She

10:04

got led to the policeman, but she broke

10:07

free and got back to the crowd, so

10:09

the cops grabbed her again, took her to the police

10:11

fan, so she broke free again. This

10:14

happened repeatedly. Finally she

10:16

shouted, why don't you guys do

10:18

something, and then probably decked

10:20

a cop. Well, another

10:23

inciting incident, and that last one is

10:25

the one that has the most eyewitness accounts. Another

10:29

inciting incident was a stocking and

10:31

high healed leg kicked a cop in the chest

10:33

from inside the arrest wagon. But

10:36

the image is beautiful to me. And

10:38

then another queen smashes a cop with her purse.

10:42

Meanwhile, some handcuffed people

10:44

escape, including our man, the skull,

10:47

the mother ed Murphy. I

10:49

would be surprised if they were able to keep him in restraint.

10:52

It I know custody at all well,

10:55

And the way he gets away, at least the way he says

10:57

that they got away, and there's no reason to disbelieve him,

11:00

is he's handcuffed to another guy. And

11:02

so they hop in a cab and

11:05

the cabby is gay and

11:07

speeds them off. To another gay bar

11:09

that's like a kink bar, like

11:12

a fetish bar, and the fetish

11:14

guys are like, yeah, of course we have handcuff keys and

11:16

let them go. That is so funny.

11:18

I'm I know. Um.

11:22

So back at Stonewall, the

11:25

cops are like, oh, this

11:27

is this is bad. We are outnumbered

11:29

and also bad people. They might not have realized

11:31

the second part they should have, but right not yeah,

11:34

um, but they realized they're outnumbered. Copwagons

11:37

speed off with whoever they could get some

11:39

speed away on slash tires. One

11:42

of the people who was in this crowd

11:44

is this anarchist folk singer named

11:47

Dave von Ronk, and he's straight.

11:50

He just fucking hated cops.

11:55

Yeah, he was at the restaurant down the street. He's

11:57

like, oh shit, it's on. So

12:00

this guy, Dave and Ronk, he's not really

12:02

remembered much now, but his mentees

12:05

like Bob Dylan are much more famous.

12:07

Okay. And he wrote

12:10

the arrangement for House of the Rising Sun

12:12

that everyone plays. I'm usually

12:14

kind of sick. Yeah.

12:17

Yeah. The version of the Animals play, which is the same

12:20

as Bob Dylan's version, is his

12:22

version of it. Okay, I'm pretty sick

12:24

of that story. But then I listened to his version

12:27

after learning this fact, I actually really like it.

12:29

He's a way fucking better singer than Bob Dylan,

12:32

although that doesn't take a lot. Dan

12:36

is a contentious I don't think this is like he's

12:39

a songwriter, you know, Oh yeah,

12:41

yeah, let's let's go with that. He's my evidence

12:43

that as a man, you don't have to be

12:45

good at singing in order to make it, but

12:48

women have to be both good songwriters and fucking

12:51

amazing vocalists. Yes, there are many

12:53

evidences of that. I think, yeah,

12:56

both ways, So I agree.

12:58

I agree, Oh,

13:00

Dave, he's in the crowd and

13:03

the cops grab him and they drag

13:06

him inside stonewall and

13:08

they handcuff him to a radiator and beat him

13:10

almost to unconsciousness, and

13:14

then they barricade the door and

13:16

lock themselves in from the rioting crowd

13:18

outside so they can beat

13:21

him in peace. Like you know, I

13:23

think what it is is that they're like, they're scared

13:25

and outnumbered by this crowd that's become a riot,

13:27

and so they're like, fuck, get inside, get inside.

13:29

And they're like in the middle of arresting this guy, this

13:32

is my best yes, And so they

13:34

drag him inside with them

13:36

and also locked in there with them as like a reporter

13:39

from I think The Village Voice who was just like happy

13:41

to be there and was like ah, I was like hiding and then was like

13:43

in the bar well And so

13:47

characters show up for this Yeah,

13:49

yeah, totally, and so they're all fucking

13:51

the cops are barricaded inside the place, and

13:54

later, since they've beaten our guy dave

13:57

up, they have to charge him with assault. Because that's like literally,

14:00

whenever I hear someone got arrest for assaulting officer, I

14:02

assume it means they got assaulted by an officer. Yes,

14:04

that's very good to assume. Yeah.

14:07

And Pine, that cop who you

14:10

know, the one who was seeing more Pine,

14:12

Yeah, seemore Pine. He'd been in

14:14

combat, right, And later he said that being barricaded

14:16

inside the club was the most scared he'd been in his life.

14:19

WHOA. And to that, I say, good,

14:22

Yeah, I mean I know he

14:24

said some nice things later, but that moment

14:27

fucking good. Yeah. I'm glad

14:29

he survived, I guess, right, But like, uh,

14:33

you know what, I don't think it's helpful

14:35

to have that good apple because

14:37

that's more are going to have a

14:39

good apple, Like I obviously I

14:41

wish I mean, that's what. That's

14:43

not true. I was gonna say I wish death to no one. That's

14:45

not true. But I

14:47

do think sometimes that narrative and

14:50

also just like it's it's very

14:52

convenient in retrospect to have that point

14:55

of view. First, there

14:58

is no good thing at a good cop everywhere,

15:01

and so I think the narrative of like being like,

15:03

oh, this, this is an example

15:06

of why we need them and they have they're good

15:08

yeah, morels or whatever, it's like, no, it's just

15:10

a fucking that's more prope

15:12

cop shit. I don't know. Well, from my

15:14

point of view, the fact that he's a good cop

15:17

is exactly why copying is bad, right,

15:19

And that's why there is no good cop is because this person

15:22

who should have been a good cop by all standards.

15:24

Yeah yeah,

15:26

yeah, not corrupt, like literally

15:28

all this went down because he was

15:31

trying to not be corrupt. He went and oppressed

15:33

the ship out of some people, you know, and

15:35

like literally the corrupt cops are like more

15:38

on the side of gays and even

15:41

though they probably hate gays more yeah,

15:43

right, and all but they're all selfishly

15:46

financially motivated, right, they would never support

15:48

the mother was like, yeah,

15:51

right, totally. So anyway,

15:53

they're barricaded inside the building. The

15:56

crowd breaks out the window and starts escorting

15:58

lighter fluid into the room. Whoa. Um.

16:02

But then in the nick of the time, and just

16:04

in the nick of time from the cops point of view, and probably

16:06

from the folk singer's point of view, more

16:09

riot cops show up before they all

16:11

get burned alive in the building. Um, well

16:15

that's the thing. It's like, so that because he's handcuffed

16:17

to a radiator and the crowd's about to burn the building down,

16:21

is it just him inside with the cops and

16:23

the greenwich the village voice, Oh

16:25

right, okay, yeah, no, all all of the

16:27

patrons have all been kicked out by now. Yeah, okay,

16:31

so the riot squad shows up, and

16:33

they show up with amazing

16:36

deals on goods

16:39

and services. I

16:41

was genuinely hanging on that word. I was like,

16:43

what do you what did they go with? No,

16:47

they came bearing ads.

16:49

I guess I

16:52

don't know. Okay, that's that's good, that's good. Just

16:54

go with it. All right, we're

17:00

back and the

17:03

crowd didn't run. The

17:06

riot cops show up, and they're probably like, ow,

17:09

stomp these fucking queers. I mean, they've already

17:11

gone through so much, like what backing

17:14

down it? Then it's like, right, yeah, yeah,

17:16

why fucking bother in for a penny and

17:19

for throwing pennies at cops, in for pounding cops.

17:21

Yeah, So they form

17:23

a kick line. I think it's only a couple of people, but

17:25

they form a kick line and start doing like high kicks

17:28

and singing these songs as the riot

17:30

cops approach. Because I love queers, That's

17:32

why they these all these imagery

17:34

is beautiful, you know, like, yeah,

17:37

damn queers know how to riot, I know,

17:40

especially with this next line in the melee,

17:42

one source claims that a cop was a bit so hard

17:45

he needed medical treatment. That

17:48

makes me so happy, And I think that

17:50

makes me sick, but it makes me feeally happy to

17:52

hear that. Yeah, I feel

17:55

like that's my fighting style, to be honest. YEA

17:57

of all the fighting styles I've heard, I don't think I would

17:59

be able to like beat graceful or anything. But I could

18:01

bite someone, I believe you.

18:04

So that's that's my role. But

18:06

yeah, beautiful, beautiful tactics

18:08

all around. Yeah.

18:11

The most grievous injury that happened

18:13

at Stonewall riots as a teenager, a

18:15

queer teenager lost two fingers that were slammed

18:17

into a card door U. And

18:19

that was the and

18:22

that was I mean, you know, it was more

18:24

ins and outs. But at three thirty five am, the

18:26

first day's riot was over, but

18:28

the media covered it,

18:31

so crowds came out the next night also,

18:34

And at first it was like a big block party.

18:37

The veterans of the previous night took center

18:39

stage and they like kissed and posed for photos,

18:41

and cheerleaders led chance of gay power

18:44

and it fucking rules. Right. The

18:47

riot police came, but there were thousands

18:49

of people because the media

18:51

basically gave them promotion or

18:53

like attention. Yeah, yeah,

18:56

and so the riot

18:58

cops would attack, but these people

19:00

already knew what twenty twenty protesters later

19:02

learned. B water when the police approach, back

19:05

up and reconvene, you know, so the cops

19:07

would like make an attack and everyone just

19:09

back off. Yeah.

19:11

Martha P. Johnson, she's the

19:13

super red Black queen. She's often credited

19:15

as throwing the first brick at stone wall or something, or

19:18

sometimes she's credited as throwing

19:20

a shot glass at the mirror and screaming I've

19:22

got my civil rights. But

19:24

she's very clear that the night

19:26

before she wasn't there when the riots started. She

19:28

showed up at two am and threw down.

19:31

But the next day, the second

19:34

night of riots, I have a question. Sorry,

19:36

yeah, what does she say she did?

19:39

She says she showed up at two am and threw down, but

19:42

she doesn't say like I threw the first note rick

19:44

or like shock. Okay, okay, interesting to know.

19:46

Yeah, No, although Sylvia Rivera, who will talk

19:48

about in a second, That'll be

19:50

an interesting question with her. Okay, So

19:55

Martha P. Johnson, second night of riots,

19:57

climbs a lamp post with a with

20:00

a bag with a brick in it and

20:03

drops it on a cop car and smashes

20:06

up the window. And the sheer athleticism

20:09

of climbing a lamppost with a bag

20:11

with a brick in it. Wow,

20:13

I'm in fucking awe. That's Olympic

20:15

type shit. I that's

20:18

athleticism used correctly. Yeah,

20:20

totally. And then Sylvia Rivera

20:23

is a Puerto Rican transwoman who

20:25

identified as a queen at the time who

20:27

was part of all of this too, And she's

20:30

she's one of Marsha's best friends, and she

20:33

probably wasn't at the first night of riots.

20:35

She was, by most accounts high

20:38

and or asleep in a park nearby,

20:41

Okay, and she

20:43

spent an awful lot of time telling people that

20:45

she was there. However,

20:49

I'm not trying to talk shit on her. She rules

20:51

and did a fuck ton of amazing activism

20:53

and I hate bringing her up only to point out

20:55

that she wasn't there. I'm just trying to mythbust a little

20:58

bit because these are the two people horse sort

21:00

of like often presented as the right,

21:03

the people who kicked it off. I mean, and it's

21:05

curious to know how that rumor

21:07

or whatever starts right or like how that

21:09

information starts to get spread. Yeah,

21:11

And I think with her, I think it's her being like, oh, yeah,

21:13

that's totally there, right exactly, And

21:16

I mean, whatever, I'm fucking I could see myself

21:19

doing that too. So night too,

21:21

there's a big riot. Queers and allies

21:24

are fighting cops and there's a lot

21:26

of contentious

21:28

stuff about who did what fighting,

21:30

and like there's like one part that's

21:33

like and then the anarchists fucked up everything by showing

21:35

up or whatever, and like every time I read that,

21:37

I'm like, yeah, of course, yeah, Like

21:39

I never heard that one before. But

21:43

then all the gays started getting along

21:45

and everyone got their rights because of Stonewall.

21:47

Just kidding, And

21:51

I'm sure we'll I'll, I'm sure on future

21:53

episodes I'll talk more about post Stonewall

21:55

stuff too. But Stonewall

21:57

wasn't the first gay riot, but it was a turning point

22:00

and the queer movement moved from assimilationist

22:02

deliberationist. But there's

22:04

one more riot story I want to tell you, one

22:06

that I didn't know about, and one that's left out

22:08

of mainstream discourse time and time again, because

22:13

this riot on Stonewall wasn't

22:15

the only riot on that street that night

22:17

that was directly related to all of this. I

22:20

don't know that. So Okay,

22:24

there's a thing that I've either talked about on the show or

22:26

I wrote it in one of the scripts I haven't recorded yet. I

22:28

don't remember because my brain doesn't work

22:31

that way. There's a thing called the

22:33

Panther twenty one. There's a group of people called the Panther

22:35

twenty one. The short of it is

22:37

that they're twenty one Black Panthers in New York City

22:39

in nineteen sixty nine, same time all this stuff happens,

22:42

they were framed up on some bullshit charges that kept

22:44

them tied up in jails and courts for years. And

22:47

it was part of this whole thing

22:49

that split the Black Panthers, specifically the New

22:51

York East Coast in general, but New York

22:53

in particular. One of these Panthers

22:56

she's most famous now is Tupac Shakur's

22:58

mom. And her name is Yes,

23:01

Yeah, I love her, love them Yeah,

23:05

And she's gonna she's gonna be even cooler.

23:08

Well, she was already this cool, but I

23:10

learned more cool stuff about her that I didn't know. She

23:12

already fucking rules. She

23:15

joined the movement, She converted

23:17

to Islam, She became a leader. She helped establish

23:19

the Harlem Breakfast program for kids. She

23:22

was twenty one when she was arrested as one of

23:24

the Panther twenty one in April nineteen sixty

23:26

nine in a coordinated series of thirteen

23:28

raids on Panther houses. So about I

23:31

can't do math, but like two or so months before

23:34

before Stonewall and

23:36

This is a frame up right. The Panther twenty

23:38

one didn't do these things.

23:41

I'm sure they were doing illegal things, but this is not what they were

23:43

framed up for. And I was saying that

23:45

they were going to like bomb department stores. And

23:48

no dynamite was found in any of the thirteen

23:50

raids, but that doesn't matter to cops. They got tips

23:52

in court for years. She

23:54

got locked up into a place called the Women's House

23:56

of Detention, which overlooks

23:59

Christopher's Street and the Stonewall In

24:02

In fact, she was locked up across

24:04

the street when the Stonewall riots happened. Okay,

24:08

And a part of the story of the riot

24:10

that's left out is that the women in

24:13

the House of Detention saw

24:15

the riot and started rioting.

24:19

How is that left out? That is

24:21

crucial info that I should

24:23

have known, especially because it's

24:25

like two box your core's mom, Like,

24:27

I know, come on, I assume

24:29

a combination of leaving out black people, leaving

24:31

out lesbians, leaving out with struggles, and leaving

24:34

all anti carcerol. Right,

24:36

that's that all the above, Yeah,

24:38

yeah, yeah, and

24:40

you know, and also a lot of people like I didn't

24:43

know this until I actually

24:45

shout out to Hugh Ryan, who wrote a book called The

24:47

Women's House of Detention. I think that's what's called.

24:50

And he Ryan's a former guest on this podcast. You can

24:52

listen to me talk to him about stuff, and

24:55

you know, he was like, oh cool. I hit

24:57

him up and I was like, what am I going to miss about Stonewall? And

24:59

he's like, of the part about you

25:02

know, a phemie sheicorps rioting across

25:04

the street. And I was like, I do not. You know, that's

25:07

so cool. That's so cool to Nill, Like

25:09

she was already so fucking cool. Yeah,

25:12

I don't know. I thought she couldn't get cooler. I was wrong.

25:15

Yeah, And so at

25:18

during Stonewall, women in the prison

25:21

started burning shit, throwing burning mattresses

25:23

out of the windows of the prison, screaming gay

25:25

rights at the top of their lungs, so that's

25:27

they could be heard from the street below.

25:30

Like one of the one of the people who

25:32

showed up later to the riots, it was like, oh fuck

25:34

it, like ran off to go to the riots, like heard

25:37

the first rioting that that

25:39

this person heard was women in

25:41

the prison screaming gay power or

25:44

gay rights. Eight women

25:46

used that night to Try and Escape. Author

25:48

Hugh Ryan, veteran guests the Pod, wrote the book

25:50

him Women's House of Detention. He wrote,

25:53

quote, for far too long,

25:55

our frame of reference for Stonewall has been too

25:57

small, cropping the story down to a narrow

25:59

slip of its true self, and then enlarging

26:02

that image until it blosts out everything else. The

26:04

memory of these eight women has fallen into the crack

26:06

between what happened and what we remember. Research

26:09

as I might, I cannot bridge the divide, which

26:12

is to say that those eight women, he knows their first

26:14

names, and he never he wasn't able

26:16

to find out more information about them. You know, it's

26:19

hard to know the sexuality of all the women in the prison,

26:21

though their shouts of gay power could be heard from

26:24

the street, so it probably wasn't just one

26:26

or two gay people in there. But

26:28

we do know the sexuality of at least two

26:31

of the women in the House of Detention, a

26:33

Fani Shakur and her fellow panther

26:35

twenty one arrestee Joan Bird spoiler

26:39

they're queer. Hey. After

26:42

the panther arrests and Stonewall, some

26:44

leftist queers were like, hey, the gay

26:46

movement should protest the Women's House of Detention and support

26:49

of the Panthers, and the conservative folks

26:51

were like, no, we can't do that.

26:53

That rocks the boat. Yeah,

26:58

exactly, so the rowdy queers.

27:00

They formed the Gay Liberation Front. Usually

27:03

people talk about the glf's first

27:05

protest being at the Village Voice demanding

27:07

the right to advertise in the paper. I think, but

27:10

months earlier the first protest

27:12

they did. They protested alongside

27:14

the Panthers at the House of Detention. Because

27:17

prison abolition and support for black power get written

27:19

out of history. They returned to the House

27:21

of Detention, I believe weekly just

27:24

being like, no, but these motherfuckers

27:27

go And in response,

27:30

perhaps in response to this, or maybe just off his

27:32

own volition, Hughey Pugh Newton, co

27:34

founder of the Panthers, announced in nineteen seventy

27:36

that the Panthers were making common cause with

27:39

the feminists and with gay liberation and

27:41

Affhoenech Corps spent months in solitary

27:44

confinement without even a bathroom

27:46

in her cell. I think it might have actually been like regular

27:49

in the prison. I got a lobe confused about this. Either

27:52

in solitary or just regularly in prison.

27:54

There was no fucking bathroom in the cell, and you

27:56

have to be escorted by two guards in order to

27:59

go piss, which wasn't allowed very

28:01

often. Yeah, it's really fucking

28:03

bad. And for anyone out

28:05

there who's playing cool people bingo, she

28:08

acted as her own attorney. Yes,

28:11

I think I knew that part. Yeah,

28:14

and this is the part that shocked me. It

28:16

worked. I think this is like the only

28:18

person I've covered a lot of

28:20

people who've defended themselves right

28:24

to quote Hugh Ryan again quote

28:27

today it is largely believed that it was Shakur's

28:29

statements and her perceptive questioning of government

28:31

infiltrators on the witness stand that exposed

28:34

FBI corruption and save the Panther twenty

28:36

one. That's amazing, that's

28:39

great. Love her. Yeah,

28:41

and I read and again I don't have this in my script,

28:43

so it's me my faulty memory. But

28:45

it's like she convinced I think,

28:48

either an infiltrator or a cop on the stand

28:50

to like admit that he was like

28:52

hurting his own people, he was a black

28:54

man, and like got him to

28:57

like admit he had like done bad trying

29:00

to fuck with the tan. Yeah.

29:03

Yeah, and she

29:06

was pregnant with Tupac in the

29:08

prison, and it was the women

29:10

in prison I guess when she wasn't

29:12

in solitary, they gave her strength for her

29:14

court battles. Like every day she'd be

29:16

like, oh, I don't know if I can fucking do this, and people like

29:19

you fucking got this. You can fucking do it, you

29:21

know. And her and her other panther

29:23

prisoner friend, also found something

29:25

else in jail. They found gay

29:27

love, not

29:30

even just the like kind of classic getting

29:32

laid behind bars. Affinie

29:34

met a woman named Carol Crooks or Crooksie,

29:37

and when the two of them got out they started dating.

29:40

Joan Bird met a butch named Burne, who

29:43

she also dated once they got out, So

29:45

it wasn't even just like jailhouse love. Right. Well,

29:49

that's beautiful, cool enough, I know. I mean,

29:51

that's a nice ending to hear after

29:53

Like, I mean, obviously I know that

29:55

she wasn't there forever, but to know that like

29:58

she left and like had happiness with someone,

30:00

that's nice. Yeah, totally.

30:03

And if you want happiness you can

30:05

buy it from

30:07

the ads. That's what they say. Money

30:09

buys happiness. Yeah,

30:12

if you don't have any money, you're

30:15

fucked. Yeah,

30:18

I don't know. I guess you should have thought of

30:20

that before participating by

30:22

force into an economic system that

30:25

rewards people who already have things. Why

30:27

don't you think of that? Think about

30:29

that during the break? Yeah,

30:36

And we're back from that break, and I hope you've thought

30:38

about what you've done long and hard. Yeah.

30:43

Sorry, it's like sex,

30:47

and so I just want

30:49

it remembered that all this shit is connected.

30:52

The gay women prisoners, including Tupac Shakur's

30:54

mom, are among the Stonewall rioters, and

30:57

that the Gay Liberation Front formed to be in

30:59

solidarity with those women, that

31:01

sex workers and trans people and sis people and

31:03

people of every sexuality, even straight folk

31:06

singers were all involved. And

31:08

then all of our struggles are connected. The

31:11

Gay Liberation Front formed and it did

31:13

its thing. I hope we talked about it more in the future Star.

31:17

I promised you a s oh yeah throwback

31:19

to however long ago that the

31:22

episode one. Yeah,

31:24

the Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries

31:26

were formed by Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia

31:28

Rivera, and they provided

31:31

housing and helped LGBT youth and sex workers

31:33

in New York. And they were an organization

31:35

whose charity was funded largely through sex work.

31:38

Well, that's cool. On

31:40

the first anniversary of Stonewall,

31:44

a parade was called for the Christopher Street

31:46

Liberation Day. Every

31:48

gay group in town like got together and voted

31:50

for it in their big conferences. They would have accept

31:53

the Machine Society. Oh god,

31:56

they really went downhill, they really

31:58

did? They abstained? Yeah?

32:02

How the how the mighty Fall's?

32:07

Yeah, I know, I know there's a there're saying I was

32:09

trying to get right, but I know sayings

32:11

correctly in English, though I should have tried.

32:14

That's fine. Um you

32:17

say, is there a good Arabic phrase for

32:20

it? That's pretty on the

32:22

spot. I can't there's something that

32:24

directly translates into that. But there's

32:26

a lot of like disappointments and stuff

32:29

like, I don't know, I'll

32:31

think about it. Hit like, let's circle

32:33

back to that after the show. All right, all right,

32:37

So the Christopher Street

32:39

Liberation Day parade, more than two thousand

32:41

people came. Most numbers say between

32:43

three and five thousand. More and more

32:45

people join the march as it went on. Some people say

32:47

twenty thousand. I usually

32:50

when people provide

32:52

numbers, none of them are true, right, frankly,

32:55

we're all made up. Yeah,

32:57

oh my god, one day there's going to be like a little like a eye

33:00

drones that actually count every single

33:02

person. I

33:05

feel like we're already there. We're just don't know. Yeah,

33:08

that's actually probably true. Other

33:11

cities followed suit. And this

33:13

is why Pride is in June, because

33:15

we remember that we can bite cops and kick

33:17

them in the chest with high heels, and we can scare

33:19

them into barricading themselves into buildings, and we can

33:21

fucking come close to studying them on fire if we need

33:23

to. So that we can dress how we

33:26

want and love who we want to love. That's

33:29

that's something to be proud for. I think, yeah,

33:32

yeah, I you know, it's

33:34

funny because I like I

33:36

never really thought I was like queer enough. Yeah,

33:39

same, And you

33:41

know, even like like when I identified as

33:43

like a transvestite for a long time, as I was like, oh, I'm just a cross

33:46

dresser, you know, I'm a cross dresser

33:48

named Margaret whatever, you

33:50

know, And

33:53

and so I never really felt super connected

33:56

to a lot of the Like I don't regularly

33:58

go to Pride or anything like that. I don't love cribs

34:01

same like I

34:04

I like riots more than I like calm

34:08

celebrations, um and

34:10

like and so yeah like I

34:13

but I you know, the more

34:16

I hear about the history, the more I read about

34:18

the history and stuff, the more I am like, No,

34:21

I really am actually like proud,

34:24

like because of how fucking hard

34:28

the human battery and rams have fought,

34:31

you know. Yeah, No, I think, I

34:34

mean the origins

34:36

of it are really good to know because I think there was a

34:39

good amount of time before I got like just

34:42

into like a pure marketing scheme. Like I

34:44

feel like pride is just like not

34:48

what it needs to be. It's genuinely like

34:51

used against us. Yeah,

34:53

but yeah, I think, uh, knowing

34:55

the history of what it actually started as before

34:58

fucking corporations caught

35:00

on to the total to the

35:02

thing is important because I think now it's

35:04

almost like I know, he just kind of gets

35:06

some like well deserved hate

35:09

because it's just become

35:12

like rainbow pins

35:14

and rainbow lugs from so and so

35:16

company and like whatever, yeah, made

35:18

by people who working for terrible pages

35:21

in other countries, and like it's

35:23

the new gayola. Like we used to pay

35:25

off the mafia and now we pay corporations

35:28

who are doing more evil for the world

35:30

than the mafia could ever dream

35:32

of, not because the mafia is good, but

35:34

because giant corporations are because capitalism

35:37

is the biggest evil. That's really what it is.

35:39

It's just like, if it all boils

35:41

down to people doing things for money, you

35:43

know that you were fun. Yeah, yeah,

35:47

but that said, it went from two thousand

35:49

people in nineteen seventy

35:52

the fiftieth anniversary in twenty nineteen,

35:55

more than five million people celebrated in New

35:57

York City. And this is the largest

36:00

aid in New York City's history. Wow.

36:03

And that's just fucking as as

36:05

messy as it is. Yeah,

36:07

it's still fucking rules that like, and

36:10

it's just so and we

36:12

thought we made it. We're like that interviewer in

36:14

nineteen ninety eight who was like, Hey, Harry,

36:16

Harry, isn't it great that we've made

36:18

it? And he's like, no, they will

36:21

rip that away from you. You know,

36:23

he was right. Yeah, I didn't realize

36:25

it was the biggest riot or a parade

36:27

rather in New York history. That's really

36:30

amazing to hear that. I know, Yeah,

36:33

I know, I like, yeah, I didn't

36:35

know that either until I was just like, yeah,

36:37

doing that research and I'm like, oh shit, yeah,

36:40

and I'll close out

36:43

by returning to the skull. Oh yes,

36:45

oh I forgot Okay, tell me what happened to

36:47

the skull? To mother to mother.

36:51

For his part, the Skull turned

36:53

a new leaf after Stonewall, he

36:55

became a community organizer. He spent all of

36:57

his time helping street youth, working hard with

36:59

the AIDS crisis, and teaching condom use.

37:02

He possibly he

37:04

was like one of the founders at the Christopher Street Festival

37:07

that became Pride. He came

37:09

out it's a big part of all of us,

37:12

and he became the kind of guy who like dress up at

37:14

Santa as Santa Claus for events, Like he

37:16

just became like everyone's like fucking an

37:18

endearing man. And

37:20

at that point he's like older because he like spent multiple

37:23

times in prison and like whatever. Yeah,

37:25

he fought in World War Two, right, oh yeah, so he's

37:27

like getting there, Santa Claus, Santa

37:29

Claus. Yeah, yeah, yeah totally.

37:32

And he works really

37:34

hard to keep Pride focused

37:37

exactly what we were just talking about. He works

37:40

hard to include people of color and working

37:42

class white folks and Pride and also

37:44

to make sure that X cons feel welcome and basically

37:46

like he pride like

37:50

not for rich people. Right,

37:53

he gets one of his ex cop buddies

37:55

from when he was like when he was

37:57

doing that scam with the corrupt cops.

38:00

He gets one of them to turn a new leaf and become

38:02

a community activist instead of a couple. That's

38:05

pretty cool. That's pretty cool. Skull he

38:07

fucking he fucking yeah. Like, and

38:11

he died of aids on

38:13

February twenty eighth, nineteen eighty nine, sixty

38:16

three years old. At his funeral

38:18

at Saint Veronica's Roman Catholic the

38:21

priest said, if ed Murphy

38:23

is not with God, then there is no God.

38:26

Wow. If

38:29

you can get it full, yeah,

38:31

if you can live your cat your like gay

38:34

Catholic life or like you know, like

38:36

like if you can get a Catholic priest to say this

38:38

at your funeral after everything you've done

38:40

good and bad, you know what I mean? He was not a

38:43

saint by Eddy Saplings, and

38:45

the fact that he did

38:47

so much good that almost outweighed all of that.

38:49

It's pretty amazing, right well,

38:51

and like and I think that actually really like, um,

38:55

I try not to like overly talk about religion on

38:57

this podcast. I'm actually not particularly religious,

38:59

will come across it very differently. I'm very interested in

39:01

religious radicals. I'm very interested in people have

39:04

different worldviews and how they apply

39:06

them to the world. And that is like why I find so find

39:09

so much interest in all of this. But it's

39:11

like the Catholic

39:14

whole thing is theoretically about forgiveness

39:16

and people who have like been

39:18

bad do good is like kind

39:21

of almost the core of it.

39:23

And like, at its best, I think it's

39:25

anti carcerol, and I think at its best it

39:27

is like yeah, saying like

39:30

look if this guy didn't get in, I mean,

39:32

I don't think it's like it's like like getting

39:35

freed or like redemption is like a huge

39:37

part of that that journey for a lot of people.

39:39

That makes sense. Yeah,

39:42

and to keep it all super irish. The funeral

39:44

march included someone singing the song Danny Boy,

39:47

and the longest piece

39:50

I was able to find about him, there's like one long

39:52

article that someone wrote about his life and

39:54

it's this like gay Catholic

39:57

piece. It presents him really cynically.

39:59

It's doesn't like him. I think it's like um

40:02

and it it basically claims he is involved

40:04

in charity work for like money

40:06

and clout, and I'm like, what's

40:10

money? Yeah?

40:13

And and I okay, and here's

40:16

this this I

40:18

might regret saying this. I think in his heart

40:20

he was a class warrior, and the extortion

40:23

of rich gays is like, he's

40:25

a poor criminal. He robs rich

40:27

people. He's in the gay scene, so

40:29

he robs rich gay people. Like

40:31

that's not good, but

40:34

it sounds like a quality.

40:36

I know. It's not greedy or selfish

40:38

to rob rich people. It's just a

40:41

sign that your system is economically

40:43

broken. I agree with you one hundred percent.

40:45

I really do. Like I think kind

40:48

of similarly, maybe this is also

40:50

propose that I shouldn't say, but like similarly,

40:53

how I think being a cop trump's everything. I

40:55

think being rich sometimes can trump

40:57

everything else because if

41:00

a certain point where you kind of lose touch or

41:02

not even just lose touch, but like there's

41:05

just it's too much of a discrepancy.

41:07

You know, it's just I don't I don't

41:09

feel bad for you. Yeah,

41:13

so I do think you're right. I think stealing

41:15

from rich people, regardless of who they are,

41:17

is never bad because they'll get over

41:20

it and still be rich. Yeah,

41:22

I mean to a point extorting them obviously extorting

41:25

them about their sexuality, yes,

41:27

not that lead into their suicide and stuff is

41:30

more gay people killing themselves because of that, and

41:32

that is a yeah,

41:34

yeah, obviously not talking about that

41:37

being no, no, I know. But as

41:39

far as like the

41:41

bad things he did, which were horrible, they

41:44

were horrible. I think in

41:46

his life potentially maybe he was

41:48

conscious of it and led it differently

41:50

from that point, because it sounds like later in his life

41:52

he kind of focused on

41:55

being like an activist and helping

41:57

people from what it sounds like. Yeah,

41:59

And one of the pieces I've read a couple of different

42:01

things about his snitching, and one

42:03

of them was like, oh, he's stayed informant for the police

42:05

until the NYPD beat the shit

42:07

out of him, and then he stopped informing for them. Yeah.

42:10

And then in his own words, he's like, no,

42:12

fuck that, I ain't no rat or whatever. But I

42:14

mean that's you guess yeah everyone. Yeah.

42:17

And then Harry hay To

42:21

go more full circle, the communist who started the

42:23

Mattachine Society and then got run out of it. He

42:26

went on to form another movement in nineteen

42:28

seventy nine, this one that is pretty much immune to

42:30

co option. The Radical

42:32

Fairies. Have you heard the Radical Fairies?

42:35

I have? Should I have? I don't know much

42:37

about anything. I have not heard of the routine.

42:40

I knew about them from like being a weird queer hitchhiker

42:42

and hanging out in rural spaces and stuff.

42:45

And I'm not going into them deeply, but they're

42:47

a kind of a new age pagan

42:49

gay rural counterculture, wow, with

42:53

like all kinds of messy stuff. Yeah, and

42:56

many of the people who I'm presenting uncritically in this

42:58

episode have things that could be said about them whatever.

43:01

And in nineteen seventy four, the

43:03

Gay Liberation Front successfully got

43:06

the which is the group that kind of came most immediately

43:08

out of Stonewall, got the American

43:10

Psychiatric Association to take being gay

43:13

out of the Big Book of Mental Disorders, the DSMOR,

43:15

the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual.

43:18

I have opinions on that that we can't get into, but

43:21

yeah, it was

43:24

replaced with being upset about being

43:26

gay was the new disorder in nineteen

43:28

seventy four. Wow, until

43:30

twenty thirteen when we finally got rid of that. I

43:33

mean, you could just call that shame at a certain

43:35

point and just like not making a mental

43:37

disease to feel one way or

43:39

the other about yourself. That's so stupid whatever. Yeah,

43:42

no, what I mean, it's like, why would people be ashamed

43:44

of being gay because society is exactly

43:47

exactly society's

43:50

disease. Yeah, be

43:52

a different book, The

43:55

Conquest of Bread. I don't know, I've never read The

43:57

Conquest of Bread. Because progress

44:01

isn't linear. We're now

44:03

entering an age where if I went and gave

44:05

this as a talk in Tennessee, it

44:08

would have to be at a strip club. Yeah,

44:10

because I can't give a public talk

44:14

in a bunch soon a bunch of states.

44:17

That's we talked. We talked

44:19

about this throughout the whole story

44:21

of this. But like genuinely, history does not

44:25

change. It just changes, like it just

44:27

the flavor is different, but the content

44:30

is the same. Like it's just so scary

44:32

because we want to believe,

44:34

like, oh my god, there's been improvement in there

44:36

has Yeah, but that reality

44:38

is terrifying that like still

44:40

like a century later, you're

44:43

it's not safe for you to

44:45

yeah, to beat in public essentially, Like that's

44:48

fucked up. It's just unreal.

44:50

I yeah, but I

44:53

I will say, I think it's

44:55

not that nothing changes. I think it's that progress

44:57

isn't linear and we actually have to fight.

45:00

That's true, That's that's a less cynical way to think about

45:02

it. And when we fight, we win. We

45:05

win both often we win specific

45:07

strategic victories, everything from the

45:10

reformist convincing the New York Marrier

45:12

to stop and trapping gay men

45:14

to entire huge movements

45:17

that transform the cultural face of the

45:19

world like Stonewall, did you

45:21

know? And yeah, but also

45:24

we win literally because like if

45:27

you pelt cops with donuts and they drive

45:29

away without arresting your friends, you will

45:31

never forget that feeling. Yeah, And

45:34

when you die, you will have done something

45:36

amazing. You will have one because we

45:38

all fucking die, but not everyone

45:40

has scared cops away with donuts.

45:42

That's apparently my takeaway

45:45

that it didn't end intend to land on. I but

45:48

I think you're completely right that that's the highest

45:50

point of life that anyone could achieve. Yeah,

45:52

but I no, no, no, I think your

45:56

take is better. I'm very cynical, and I

45:58

think the only way of progress is even made

46:00

is not to be that way. Like if you have like

46:03

hope that it isn't linear, but

46:05

it's still progressing. That's the only

46:07

way we're ever going to get out of this

46:09

fucking hole we're in, right, So

46:13

I think that's a better way to look at it, for sure. I just I'm so

46:15

I need to not be a cynical. I know that about

46:17

myself. But this is uncaird session that

46:19

we signed up. No, But I mean,

46:22

like I think about this a lot too, right, Like, I'm very um,

46:24

I think some bad stuff were coming. I run a prepper

46:27

podcast, But

46:29

I like, I believe in strategic

46:32

optimism because we can't

46:34

win unless we think we

46:36

can win, and

46:38

so I believe that it is worthwhile

46:40

and useful even if

46:42

we are like cynical, to at

46:44

least fight like we can

46:46

win, even if we don't

46:48

expect to win, right, Because it's

46:51

like my wind condition is really unlikely,

46:54

right, my wind condition is a stateless society without

46:56

capitalism or like systemic oppression of any

46:58

sort along race and you know whatever

47:01

lines right, and like, so

47:03

my win condition is really unlikely to happen

47:05

in my lifetime or anyone's lifetime, but

47:08

it is absolutely worth fighting for. And

47:10

I think it informs my life and gives

47:12

my life. It makes my life better.

47:15

So even though it's cynical, not that you know

47:17

that's cliche, but yeah,

47:21

yeah, strategic optim No,

47:23

no, I mean, I'm just gonna strategic

47:26

optimism everyone. That's that's what I'd like to plug.

47:28

Yeah, even if you don't

47:31

believe you'll

47:33

win, you can still act like you might

47:35

and you will have a better time. It's like

47:37

going into plane a board

47:40

game and being like, whatever, I give up, you're not going

47:42

to have any fun playing the board game. I thought you

47:44

were going to say, because I also think this

47:46

applies going on to a plane, and I thought

47:48

you were going to say going out to a plane and I thinking it's going to crash

47:50

versus like things gonna be okay. You're

47:52

gonna have a better time on the plane if you think it's gonna

47:55

be okay versus it's gonna c Also,

47:58

but uh, having

48:01

meaning in your life or like purpose or

48:03

whatever, I think it gets kind of like annoying

48:06

to talk about. But you're

48:09

right in that, Like what is

48:11

the point of this existence if not to like

48:13

constantly evolve and be

48:16

okay doing it? Like why be

48:18

miserable if we cannot If we have the opportunity

48:21

not to obviously there are there

48:23

are exceptions to that when it comes to mental health

48:25

and all that stuff. But if

48:28

our brains are so powerful, like so

48:30

powerful, and I think we don't give them enough

48:32

credit to

48:35

to make our to shape our

48:37

reality. Again, exceptions

48:39

yet, but I

48:41

think about that all the time, especially recently. Like I

48:44

I've just been in this phase of like philosophy

48:46

and like whatever, and it's

48:50

maybe I'm just looking at it from a really like I

48:52

don't know, intense way,

48:55

but I think I I think I think

48:58

I'm mad at myself for making fun of having me, because

49:00

that's exactly why I don't want to happen, because

49:03

it could be cliche. Yeah,

49:05

but literally being alive and being

49:08

like even if I help one person or like whatever

49:10

it is, my life has meaning. I can be a spec

49:13

on this giant fucking universe

49:15

galaxy. But I'm

49:18

a spec that's going to be here as long as

49:20

I can and do as much as I can. Like what

49:22

else is there? There's no other option? So

49:25

yeah, we should have ended when you stopped

49:27

at the optimism

49:29

selective optimism or no no,

49:32

no, yeah, anyway,

49:35

well, guiding the plug sides

49:38

meaning you could

49:40

follow me on the internet Shiro

49:43

hero six six six on Twitter and

49:45

then just Shiro hero on Instagram.

49:48

I rarely post on them anymore, to be honest,

49:50

to circle back to like what is the point of all of

49:52

that? Because that's how I

49:54

I just got into that little cycle of like what is

49:57

the point in

49:59

a facial media? Nothing? Yeah, exactly

50:01

exactly. I just think for a long time

50:04

it was especially like in our quote unquote

50:07

line of work, it feels like the only

50:09

way to stay relevant sometimes, yeah,

50:11

and you have to just kind of step back

50:13

and be like who cares? Yeah, you

50:15

know, but what what is

50:17

your line of work? Do you do any podcasts or anything?

50:20

I do do podcast I do do podcasts.

50:23

I occasionally will host on It

50:25

could happen here. I have my own podcast called

50:27

Ethnically Ambiguous, and I guess

50:30

on a bunch of other shit that you can listen

50:32

to, and I make films

50:34

when I can, and you can watch those

50:36

two if you want to. So that's

50:39

what I got today. Hell

50:41

yeah, And you can

50:44

listen to other cool Zone podcasts

50:47

such as Hood Politics,

50:50

Internet Hate Machine, Behind

50:52

There, Behind the Behind

50:56

the Bullies, Yeah, Batties, pteful

50:59

meanings, The hateful meanis hateful

51:02

meanis pod um and

51:05

hateful meanis that's that's on me. When you wait,

51:07

when you use it, remember me. Yeah,

51:10

when you remember hateful meanis remember

51:12

this's the words cute.

51:15

All right. We will see you. I will

51:17

see you all next week. Bye everyone.

51:21

Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production

51:23

of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts

51:25

on cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

51:28

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