0:01

Hey everybody, welcome to Co Pilots.

0:04

I am Sean Conroy and I'm

0:06

Andy Secunda. On this podcast, we talk

0:08

about TV pilots, the first episodes

0:10

of television shows. Sometimes pilots

0:13

become long running series. Others

0:15

don't make it past that first episode. We're going

0:17

to talk about all of them. The great pilots,

0:19

the bad pilots, weird pilots, the forgotten pilots.

0:22

We are TV writers, but it should be noted that we

0:24

are the dumbest TV writers, you know, so

0:26

all of these are just our dumb opinions. So

0:29

dumb.

0:32

Alison Becker, thank you so much for joining

0:34

us. We're just going to roll right into this.

0:36

Okay, thank you for having

0:38

Alison, would you say your claim to fame

0:40

is Parks and Rec?

0:42

That's, yes, that's the most known thing I've I

0:44

think.

0:44

Right. Um, Shauna, how

0:48

Mulway Tweet.

0:50

Shauna Mulway, Mulway? Mulray?

0:53

Nope.

0:54

Mollway.

0:55

is going to be the whole episode

0:58

Yeah, yeah, We, you've already lost

1:00

so many

1:00

the kind of things we're going to be, uh, we're going to be

1:02

cutting out.

1:04

sorry. I was lost in thinking about that. Was it Moway

1:06

or Mowray?

1:07

No, I'm not going, we're not going back

1:10

Uh, Sean, we're actually cutting some

1:12

of that out. Sean and I had a

1:15

discussion the other day and we're actually

1:17

I'm not saying anything else.

1:21

Cause he has a good improviser. We'll keep building on

1:23

stuff. And I'm like, no, Sean, we're actually cutting

1:25

that out.

1:28

Andy does that in the middle of the show. Like,

1:30

he's just like, we're going to cut that.

1:32

And I'm like, yes, let's cut it. I'm

1:35

the cut guy. You know, like that kind of stuff.

1:37

Andy also does that in real life. Like

1:39

sometimes I'll just be having conversations with him. He's like, we're going to

1:41

cut that. I'm like, no, this is life.

1:44

No, didn't happen. Did that really

1:46

happen? There's no way of going back. Uh,

1:49

Allison is also a,

1:51

an incredibly successful writer, uh,

1:53

both for TV and for film.

1:56

and, uh, she is, uh, furthermore,

1:59

the person who recommended

2:02

in the first place insisted she beat

2:04

Sean to it, even though Sean was also fan.

2:06

Mm-Hmm.

2:07

uh, recommended patriot. The

2:09

topic of today's show. I

2:11

would say I, I almost owe as,

2:14

as big a gratitude, a debt of gratitude

2:16

to Alison for recommending that

2:18

show as I do to Sean for recommending the wire.

2:21

It's,

2:21

Oh, bullshit.

2:25

You know, you don't stack them, uh, equally, huh?

2:28

You don't stack

2:28

Come on, give me a fucking

2:30

break.

2:32

Sean.

2:32

I just love that your debts of gratitude are

2:34

not for like life saving things. It's just like

2:36

for recommending TV shows.

2:39

No, I recommend I, owe the debt

2:41

of gratitude for the things that make me happy. Not

2:44

anything from life. Um, anyway,

2:48

uh, and she insisted, uh,

2:50

I think much like Sean insisted for The Wire, and

2:52

it's just, just immediately

2:55

was just went to my top five,

2:57

it's just.

2:58

and it's a show that most people have

3:00

never heard of.

3:01

Yeah.

3:02

other crazy thing, is

3:04

that both of you know it, and

3:06

now I know it obviously, and,

3:10

you run into people who of course are

3:12

just like, oh my god, that's crazy.

3:15

And most people don't even know it. it's

3:17

sardonic, it's heartfelt,

3:19

it's badass, it's

3:22

well

3:23

funny.

3:24

it's funny, it's just, it's

3:26

got it

3:26

beautiful.

3:28

Yeah, it's, it's cinematically,

3:30

you know, uh, crafted. just,

3:33

uh, it's just a wonderful show.

3:35

My theory is they, Shouldn't

3:37

have named it Patriot.

3:39

I think that's definitely a, a huge

3:41

aspect. And the,

3:44

the advertising for it off

3:46

base.

3:46

Non existent, yeah.

3:47

Well, I I like how,

3:49

advertising before it was recommended to me. And

3:51

I was like, meh, that doesn't look That

3:53

spy, that sardonic spy

3:56

show doesn't look interesting to

3:58

me.

3:59

Um, I like how, first of all, the tech

4:02

bros have fixed television by inventing all

4:04

the streaming services. It's really working

4:06

out great for know?

4:09

Um, and also I love

4:11

asking people if they've ever seen Patriot and everybody

4:13

goes, ah, Mel Gibson's an anti Semite,

4:16

you know?

4:16

Yeah. actually saw

4:18

and watched it in preparation for this.

4:20

I watched an interview with Steve Conrad who,

4:23

who wrote it and created it. and,

4:25

uh, the woman who called

4:27

him a genius at the beginning of the interview kept

4:30

referring to it as the Patriot. Well,

4:33

it was

4:33

it you, it was originally. but

4:36

it was originally called the Patriot.

4:38

Oh, was it?

4:39

It was. And then after they shot the pilot, they

4:41

changed it to Patriot. But it is

4:43

Let's change it a tiny bit.

4:45

That'll clear everything up.

4:48

assume that was a legal or

4:50

a confusion issue.

4:52

I

4:52

I don't

4:53

well,

4:55

What's weird is Mel Gibson's movie was originally

4:57

called Patriot and then they renamed it the

5:00

Patriot. I mean, we're

5:02

cutting that.

5:04

We're cutting that.

5:05

that. joke? The Mel Gibson joke? Yeah.

5:08

We don't want to stir up the Mel Gibson supporters.

5:12

whatever the case, I'll ask this first,

5:14

uh, Alison, how did you come because

5:17

it was such a, an unusual find?

5:19

How did you come to Patriot?

5:21

Um, Max, who I was dating

5:23

at the time, it to me

5:25

and he stumbled across it accidentally too.

5:27

He, like somebody left a TV on

5:29

and you know, when you finish a series, it just like automatically

5:32

randomly picked that.

5:34

And he was like, what is this show? It looks amazing.

5:36

And then he got on me about watching

5:38

it. And I was like, same

5:40

thing. I was like, this doesn't look like something I'd be interested in.

5:43

It's a bunch of dudes. There's not a lot

5:45

of women in it. And I was just like, this, it's

5:47

not my style. But he also

5:49

just forced me to watch it and I was like, holy

5:51

shit, beautiful, perfect. It's a perfect

5:54

television show.

5:55

It's perfect.

5:56

And I I told you that I met Steven, that I stalked

5:58

Stephen Conrad, right?

5:59

Yes.

6:01

Steven

6:02

yeah, go ahead.

6:03

Steven, Conrad, the creator is,

6:05

it's just, he, he just

6:08

made such a perfect show. And I reached out to him

6:10

Twitter and I was Hey,

6:12

I, love Patriot

6:15

and he was like, Oh, that's so awesome. Do you want to get a cup

6:17

of coffee? And I was like, yes. So

6:19

I went to his office and met him and

6:21

we just chatted about TV

6:24

and film and just

6:27

so accessible. And

6:30

and I know what you're thinking, Andy, you're going to be like, thought it was a date. He did not

6:32

think it was a date. He had a girlfriend and he talked

6:34

about his girlfriend and I had a boyfriend. that did

6:36

not want to date him. but

6:38

dates with other people when they, when the other person

6:40

I don't. Um,

6:43

but it was, it was, um,

6:45

it was very professional and. I

6:47

was just so shocked at how like down to earth

6:49

and accessible he Because Because

6:51

no one watches the show!

6:53

I know! That's the, that's, well, now

6:56

I, now I think, I think it is, is slowly

6:58

risen in in cult standing. So

7:00

now I think that there is a little bit more of a following.

7:03

I, I, uh, I reached out

7:05

to him on Twitter and never never heard back.

7:09

Well, they Twitter, I don't know if you heard what happened at Twitter.

7:12

That's true. That's true.

7:14

maybe

7:14

get some stuff about Tommy Chong's

7:16

So I'm excited about

7:17

that, but Sean, you're in a very complicated

7:20

polyamorous relationship and that's the

7:22

reason, you know,

7:23

you have no idea. There's diagrams,

7:25

there's charts.

7:27

The lines are

7:28

Yeah.

7:29

You didn't want to get involved Um,

7:31

Sean, how did you come to Patriot?

7:33

You know, I honestly don't remember, but I

7:35

think I just read like some,

7:38

Review of it somewhere from somebody

7:40

I trusted. I I don't know if it was Alan

7:43

Sepinwall who I always read and I'm

7:45

like if he likes the show I'm gonna like the show

7:47

but it was somebody that I read a oh,

7:50

Let me try this and like you guys I

7:53

was immediately think

7:55

I probably watched the

7:58

whole first season in two

8:01

days,

8:01

it's also a show that I have re watched many

8:03

times

8:05

I, I've definitely rewatched it it at least once.

8:07

I don't know that I've rewatched it many times cause that seems

8:10

crazy. um,

8:12

fair.

8:13

no, but I get it. There's so much to it. And

8:15

like, even when I was just watching this

8:17

episode, I kept being like, ah,

8:20

I forgot about that. It's like

8:22

moment after moment. That's so great.

8:24

You know,

8:25

that's what I mean. Like the second and third viewing, you're like,

8:27

Oh, I didn't even notice that that connected

8:29

to this. because so well

8:31

crafted.

8:32

I just want to point out, cause you know, Sean,

8:34

you're slamming the tech feels like

8:36

the algorithm also pointed you towards

8:39

So I feel like the algorithm

8:41

is actually working pretty well, guys.

8:44

Yeah, Oh, absolutely. And it pointed me

8:46

towards the, the new Lord of the Rings

8:48

as well, which amazing

8:51

if you I love it. It's so good. good.

8:54

It's not a

8:54

hundred percent.

8:56

all right, let's talk a little bit, about.

8:59

Stephen Conrad, Conrad,

9:03

like Allison call him, um,

9:05

tight. You could probably get them on the show, guys.

9:09

You're talking about Coffee Steve Conrad?

9:12

Yeah.

9:13

he wrote the, it's a

9:15

little bit unclear to me, I think that he went in

9:17

with Gil Bellows, is

9:20

both in the show and wrote the story

9:23

with him. he was an incredibly successful,

9:26

uh, screenwriter, um,

9:28

he sold his first screenplay at like 19,

9:30

I think it was made when he was 24, which was wrestling Ernest

9:33

Hemingway, he's written The Weatherman,

9:35

he wrote The Pursuit of Happiness with Will Smith,

9:38

he wrote The Secret Life of Walter Mitty, uh,

9:40

one of the things that's delightful about,

9:42

uh, Conrad is, uh, He

9:45

himself is just like some of those movies,

9:47

you know, had good stuff in them. Some of them didn't.

9:50

It's all about tone. Uh, you

9:52

know, you don't have control as a screenwriter. generally

9:55

speaking, and, he took

9:57

this concept. To,

9:59

Gil Bellows to FX, they

10:02

pitched it, but one thing that's

10:04

fascinating, cause I'm always, as I'm sure you guys are always fascinated

10:06

with, like, how did they convince them

10:08

to do this? And my thought sight

10:11

unseen is I bet you, this happened

10:14

that one. We might call it

10:16

the AMC moment of Amazon.

10:19

I'm sure there are other examples, but AMC,

10:21

as I've said before, put on Mad

10:23

Men and Breaking Bad in a moment. They were like,

10:26

we're trying to build up our reputation. We'll just throw

10:28

stuff on. It's like, Oh, you just threw on some

10:30

of the greatest television shows ever made because

10:33

you weren't holding the stranglehold

10:35

on it. That, uh, that often

10:38

happens in development and, and

10:41

his own, uh, perspective,

10:44

uh, comrades, that is exactly what happened.

10:46

It was this brief moment. Not

10:48

with FX, but with Amazon, where

10:51

they were open to, Hey,

10:53

let's hear a different voice. The, you

10:55

know, let's explore something.

10:58

also that he was able

11:00

to have so It's Not just

11:03

his script, but he was able to direct so

11:06

much control.

11:09

I, sorry. I I feel like when

11:11

you watch this, you see

11:13

his whole brain Like

11:16

I find that's what's most compelling about

11:18

it is it's like one and that's what makes

11:20

it great is it feels like it's one person's

11:23

vision of the story vision of the world

11:25

vision of interesting and unusual

11:28

and weird in our day to day world,

11:30

like little Obsessions of his

11:32

and so I think to to

11:34

your point weird moment

11:38

sort of slipped one through without attention

11:41

There was nobody to blur it of

11:43

making it

11:44

the other aspect that I had skipped over was

11:46

that he? sold it to FX

11:49

And apparently they, like played songs

11:51

and stuff in the pitch because that

11:54

to Conrad's perspective is

11:56

the thing that communicates tone

11:58

Yeah.

11:59

of the show better than anything, which I think is genius.

12:01

but they sold it to FX, he wrote the script,

12:04

and FX passed, and apparently

12:08

Grace's follow up too. and then

12:10

Amazon picked it up just because it was a finished

12:12

script and I guess it communicated the idea

12:15

better. And they, as we're talking about, were

12:17

willing to roll the dice. they

12:20

apparently characterized themselves as the filmmaker's

12:22

studio. You know,

12:24

one moment in time, and we're up

12:26

for making ambitious and,

12:28

I mean, just to be clear, ambitious television, new

12:31

voice, still, still a white guy.

12:34

Well,

12:34

I love his work, but just to be clear, they

12:36

weren't doing anything crazy, uh,

12:39

groundbreaking, but they were in, in,

12:41

in that they were letting one person

12:44

have control over something. And

12:47

I don't think I'm, I mean,

12:49

I'll tell you a story. Well, first of all, two Stephen

12:53

Conrad's brother. is

12:55

also in this world. plays Dennis,

12:59

um, and Stephen Conrad

13:02

refer he's ripped. Stephen Conrad

13:04

refers to his brother as Conrad.

13:07

Oh, that's hilarious.

13:09

So yeah, I guess everyone just calls

13:11

him the brother. but

13:14

I don't think I'll be speaking out of turn when I say but

13:16

I won't say the name of the actor that he said, um,

13:19

yeah. was telling me, I was asking

13:21

him about, and again, I don't think this

13:23

is a spoiler, but I will just say there is a

13:25

monologue at one point that,

13:28

uh, in the that, uh,

13:30

the character Leslie does that I think is one of the

13:32

best monologues, if not the best monologue

13:34

from television, way it's shot

13:37

and the way it's It's absolutely incredible. And

13:41

was asking so what'd

13:43

you say?

13:43

I concur. You didn't

13:45

concurs.

13:45

but I did.

13:46

I did. I did. Um, but

13:48

I was asking, uh, Stephen Conrad about

13:50

that, and he said that in some of his earlier

13:53

projects, like some of the ones you mentioned, he

13:55

had a bunch, of when he didn't have as much creative patrol,

13:58

where he was just the screenwriter and not he

14:00

had written so much. similar speeches

14:03

that were meant to be shot in take. And

14:05

he was very frustrated with Certain

14:08

a certain actor who could not learn it

14:10

in and it had to be he

14:12

was just like adamant. He's has to be

14:14

one take. This has to be one take. The whole point of this is has

14:16

to be one take. The actor has to know this, this dialogue

14:18

so intimately. And everyone was like, yeah, yeah,

14:21

yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah, And then he said he showed up on set and this

14:23

actor was just like, yeah, we're gonna have to cut this up.

14:25

Like, I didn't this. And

14:27

I know who it

14:28

just doesn't have the same power.

14:31

Well, this is a, who do you think it was?

14:34

I'm

14:35

I'm not going to say,

14:36

He just wants to say, okay, no problem. it

14:38

kind of points out also and

14:40

I, again, Conrad speaks to

14:42

this, not just From the brain

14:44

that, that created it, or the,

14:47

the writer's room behind it, which is also

14:49

an unorthodox process, the way he describes

14:51

it, which is he has this, this think tank

14:54

of younger people and friends and

14:56

all these people with like sensibilities and

14:58

they all just sort of think about genre

15:00

and think about how to put twists on it. And

15:03

it's just. just, it's this amazing

15:05

creative lab that he's created. But

15:07

in addition to that, I think you can

15:10

feel that these

15:12

actors, many of them who are these journeyman

15:14

actors that have been in endless things, you

15:16

know, Terry O'Quinn, it was Locke on Lost

15:18

and Kurtwood Smith, you know, from

15:21

RoboCop on down and all these

15:23

people, you can feel them,

15:25

even if they're in the smallest part, which

15:27

often in Patriot will become a much

15:29

larger explored part later.

15:32

can feel them as actors, just,

15:35

this is a perfect steak

15:38

of a meal that he is serving them,

15:40

and they are going to do their

15:43

best job. They are going to approach

15:45

it with the craft that

15:47

he is approaching it with, uh, on the writing

15:50

side. And it's not, it's

15:52

not universal. Even though, you

15:54

know, we've all worked. Uh,

15:57

let's say near the top, um,

16:01

of the

16:01

top adjacent.

16:04

uh, it's not, it's not constant

16:07

that, that everyone approaches their job.

16:09

Like, All right, I'm going to do the best job

16:11

I can today, and everyone in the

16:13

show, from the top of

16:15

the call sheet to the bottom of the call sheet, is delivering

16:18

a hundred

16:18

nailed it.

16:19

Do you, Do you think that has to do with

16:23

him sort of having

16:25

people in mind when he wrote stuff?

16:28

I think so. I mean, like, with the example

16:30

of his brother, yes, I I

16:33

think he had to, but I don't know, I don't think that's

16:35

true with every single part, I

16:38

And with his brother, I think it's a perfect example

16:41

of, uh, intuitively

16:44

sense. Oh, I don't

16:46

know who this person is and

16:48

they're nailing it, which

16:51

means he either got super

16:53

lucky in the casting

16:56

right.

16:56

he knows this person. course he knows this

16:58

person better than any brother.

17:01

And it's just like, what a

17:03

delight.

17:04

so funny. So funny.

17:07

So perfect. perfect. And

17:10

he just gets better as the show goes on. That

17:12

character just gets better. Is

17:14

that a spoiler? He gets better.

17:17

See now? What would you say, Allison?

17:20

What would you say if someone

17:21

I wouldn't want to know that but listen,

17:24

I I

17:25

for this character to get better. I wonder if this

17:27

is the better he gets.

17:30

oh, it's still in the back of my mind. He gets better.

17:32

didn't seem better. Where's the better? Allison,

17:36

I'm watching this

17:37

show. This

17:37

character stayed the same.

17:39

He's great, but he's not better. It's

17:41

hard to get better than great, but I'm waiting

17:44

for it.

17:44

it. Um, so

17:46

anyway, Sean, do you want to jump

17:49

in Yeah.

17:50

so the very first thing we see

17:52

is is just a definition what

17:55

a a knock is, which is

17:58

non official cover

18:00

for CIA agent

18:04

who goes into foreign countries

18:06

to sort of do CIA

18:09

things. So spy.

18:10

A very Run of the mill A

18:12

very run of the mill job that they have to do. In

18:14

tandem with being a spy, They have to So

18:17

everyone around them thinks that they are plumber

18:20

or whatever.

18:21

With, with less governmental

18:23

protection accessibility

18:27

than one would have if one was,

18:30

S embassy somewhere, or one or one of the places

18:32

that the CIA is often is

18:34

often stationed. So I

18:36

just, I'm always a fan of the

18:39

written, explanation at the beginning

18:42

of, of of the movie, you know, like a Star

18:44

Wars kind Fargo or,

18:47

this is information you need to know that we don't

18:49

want to give in exposition.

18:51

I always get stressed. I gotta be honest. I get

18:53

stressed when they show text on screen. Cause I'm like,

18:55

I want to read it all. I want to read it all. And I read it too fast.

18:58

And then I didn't get any of it. So then I go

19:00

back to read it slowly a second time, but I only make it

19:02

halfway through. because I wasted the time reading the It's

19:05

only me.

19:06

Ultimate good student. What

19:09

if the second page after the first page

19:12

of information was a quiz?

19:14

Oh, I would nail it.

19:18

But

19:19

But a peek, it's a peek into this

19:21

very specific

19:23

subset of a subset of government

19:26

agents.

19:28

And I'm sure it's been covered in

19:31

media before in various forums,

19:33

but such

19:35

a gimme. It's such a great

19:38

comedic

19:39

Yes, Cause we have to watch this person do

19:41

two jobs.

19:43

Also, the most Like

19:45

to our minds, mundane job

19:47

that you have to nail or the country

19:50

is at stake in their minds. Um,

19:53

you, and you have to nail this mundaneness

19:56

and we can follow him interacting with those people

19:58

and also put

20:00

cool actions, you

20:02

know, intense spy shit in. It's

20:04

such a, such a brilliant concept.

20:07

It really is. And I wonder how he stumbled

20:10

on it or discovered it himself, because you're

20:12

absolutely right. He's. The main characters dealing

20:14

with these absolutely life

20:16

or death situations. Meanwhile,

20:18

his boss is like yelling at

20:20

him cause he took the wrong parking spot and he has

20:23

to give them equal attention. Otherwise,

20:25

it'll mess up his, the whole, the whole project.

20:27

So wonderful. This is, this is again, is what

20:29

I inferred because the story

20:32

is by Gil Bellows and Steve Conrad.

20:35

But he wrote everything after that and Gil Bellows

20:37

didn't write that much, even though he, you know, has

20:39

written journeyman

20:42

actor. My theory is

20:44

Gilbello's either with Steve Conrad

20:47

came up with the idea or said, you

20:49

know, I read about this thing. If you ever

20:51

want to do anything about this and Conrad

20:54

being, it seems the generous,

20:56

uh, creative person that he is was just like, all right,

20:58

I'll give you a story by on this.

21:00

I had the same thought not to jump on

21:02

the the Andy Secunda bandwagon, but I had the same

21:04

that that would be why. Bellows

21:07

was involved. And there actually is

21:09

an article you can find online in mother

21:12

Jones about. This

21:14

part of of the CIA that there

21:16

are knocks out Apparently there at

21:18

the time the article was written, there about about 110

21:20

around the world. So, you

21:22

it, does.

21:24

Andy, are you one of them? Are

21:26

you fronting as a television writer

21:28

because you're actually a spy? Ha

21:30

I mean, we're going to have to cut this because even

21:32

just you

21:32

ha.

21:33

it going to throw a question

21:35

on the situation.

21:36

But, but here's the other thing about the

21:39

thing being defined as a spy stuff

21:41

at the beginning is it totally

21:43

loads the first scene.

21:46

Because otherwise, it's just a boring

21:49

job interview, but because

21:51

we know there's something else going on,

21:55

incredibly tense in a you

21:58

know?

21:59

does the thing, and this is why

22:01

it's really brilliant, uh, writing,

22:03

even though they're using the trope of the, the,

22:05

the text. Which I think is usually

22:07

defensive. It frames everything

22:10

immediately. It frames the entire story

22:13

without giving away the, you know, other than sort

22:15

of setting the tone because of the, the text

22:17

itself is very specific font

22:20

and it's little too verbose.

22:22

it's just like everything that like the job,

22:25

the real, the, the, the engineering job

22:27

will also be, it kind of feels

22:29

like that. So both sides have this,

22:32

but it also just like, is immediately like, Oh, that's

22:34

what I'm going to be watching.

22:36

And both sides also have the theme

22:38

of getting something from to B,

22:41

getting something one place to another. you

22:43

know, the piping all they're doing

22:46

is following the movement of one thing.

22:48

To another place and the whole, or the whole

22:51

mission on the spy side is

22:53

getting this one bag point A to point And

22:56

I love that they line up that way.

22:58

You're saying it's a metaphor in a in a sense.

23:00

It's a metaphor in,

23:03

an only sense, yes.

23:05

Now who's the nerd? uh,

23:08

so, okay, go ahead, john.

23:09

Okay. we start with him running. He's just

23:11

running. He's late for something. And

23:13

then we see that he was late for his job interview. And he's

23:15

in this room with a bunch of guys who

23:17

are interviewing him about, and,

23:20

and, you know, Ultimately, you know what it is,

23:22

but it's just crazy jargon,

23:24

which I'm always a fan of. Like

23:27

it just is nonsense words

23:29

as most people would be concerned.

23:32

And these guys are so

23:34

super serious And

23:36

he's clearly fucking it up and has

23:38

no idea what he's doing. supposed to

23:40

Which just to address, uh, right off

23:42

the top, because it is, you know, Allison

23:46

is right. you know, uh, it

23:48

was written by a white

23:50

guy of a certain age. I do

23:52

feel like immediately right

23:54

off the bat, this

23:56

is, a kind of,

23:59

I don't even know if it's a kind of white guy or this is

24:01

just all like, all the entire

24:04

patriarchy as a whole,

24:06

but it's just like, it's so

24:08

great I think that the, the job

24:10

itself is real, but I believe

24:13

after, cause I kept feeling like, is this jargon

24:15

real or not? I believe the jargon is, for

24:17

the most part fake.

24:18

I believe, I think the jargon is for the most part.

24:21

Fake, but it is so brilliantly

24:24

Just like, how many fillet walls

24:26

would you put on the cracked or uncracked quad?

24:28

And you're just, they're saying it so effortlessly. You're

24:30

just like, wait, is, you're just so drawn

24:33

into

24:33

Again, going back to the performances and how it's

24:35

delivered, it becomes poetry, even

24:38

though it's the most dry,

24:40

technical information. But the seriousness,

24:43

And uh, you're in our world now, bro.

24:46

So this is how we're gonna like that whole

24:48

tone of, you know,

24:50

all right, you, you were off base

24:53

on that. And I think we're all in agreement

24:55

that he was, and just that there's,

24:58

there's a little bit of, uh,

25:00

of a sort of racist swipe

25:02

at the Asian character. There's a little

25:05

bit of sexism in these

25:07

meetings. It's all white dudes to

25:09

me, even though.

25:11

It's a heavily male wayed show, which

25:13

was your first not having seen it perspective

25:16

on the show, Allison. I think it really

25:18

is like, it's a satire of this kind

25:20

of

25:21

it exactly,

25:22

specific way.

25:23

Exactly, that's exactly what it is. And that's why

25:25

I was like, oh, okay, I'm in.

25:28

Just to add one one more thing, as far as it

25:30

being a pilot, uh,

25:32

a big and

25:34

lots of of characters in it. And

25:36

I love that they don't care

25:39

about going, this guy's great

25:41

and this guy's great. And this guy's great. Like

25:43

they're just a bunch bunch of dudes

25:46

that scene. And it's clearly focused on

25:49

main character. we sort of get

25:51

to know all these guys later on

25:53

as the show goes on instead

25:55

of. Right away. And they are,

25:58

I was surprised at how many

26:00

of those characters are established

26:03

in that

26:03

Yeah

26:04

in little snippets of dialogue that of course

26:06

at the time it sort of washes over you

26:08

Right, right?

26:09

That pilot was shot like two years

26:11

before the show, or

26:13

at least a year. and a half, It was shot. It was, was

26:16

some, or at least a year and a half.

26:19

It was just a, the timing was all wild.

26:21

So the fact that they were even still available

26:23

and like, it's just, Yeah.

26:25

That actually makes sense because one of the other things Conrad

26:27

was talking about was that, and I remember this, and

26:29

I don't know if you guys remember, when they were telecasting pilots,

26:32

and then people were sort of, they would,

26:34

based on metrics, they were getting, you know,

26:37

Amazon was getting information.

26:39

Yeah.

26:39

Weren't they, Weren't weren't people voting on them

26:41

at that time? Wasn't that a thing with

26:44

Amazon?

26:44

that in and of itself is kind of, I

26:47

mean, I'm not necessarily against

26:49

it, because then you can kind of at least,

26:51

you know, get feedback directly

26:53

from the audience. The thing that, the

26:55

thing that, uh, that, that Conrad

26:57

specified though, which is of course, perfect.

27:00

And you kind of got to say understandable

27:02

is it didn't matter how many people

27:04

liked the show in the metrics. What mattered

27:07

is how many people that bought a lot of stuff

27:09

on Amazon, like the show.

27:10

Oh my God. Oh

27:12

my God. That's such a bummer.

27:15

Steven.

27:16

gotta be a way we can wring more

27:19

money out of the world. Gary,

27:21

we're gonna do it, it,

27:23

but I am sort of surprised that it, it

27:26

must have done well enough in those metrics unless

27:28

they were just like, this is a good show. We have to go with

27:30

I think that. It got, that

27:32

it went to series or that it went to season two.

27:34

it went to series because that makes sense that there was

27:36

that much of a gap that they had the pilot. And

27:38

then they did all this testing and there was a pause and

27:40

all this stuff. I just wonder what

27:43

that decision process was.

27:44

In my mind, I can't remember if somebody

27:46

told me this or it's just what I'm imagining.

27:49

But in my mind, it was just an I

27:52

love this I want it to come back. Because

27:55

it's just didn't have the following.

27:57

It didn't have and still doesn't have the

28:00

to, To make, for, for, Mutt, to make money.

28:03

if the, if the, if the voting was

28:05

influenced by how much people buy on Amazon,

28:07

do you think Steve Conrad was going on his

28:09

computer everyday and just buying shit

28:12

because he voted for his own

28:13

He has warehouses full

28:16

of just slippers. going

28:18

to do with all this.

28:21

Okay. So he comes out of the interview. He's

28:23

pretty sure he fucked it up pretty badly

28:25

because he did fuck it up pretty badly. And

28:27

then he hears the, people inside talking

28:31

and talking about how this other guy

28:33

did better than than him. And

28:36

realizes job

28:40

that the world.

28:43

So he's walking out of the

28:45

building. I mean, that's the other thing. The setting

28:47

of this is so great. The industrial,

28:50

like, weird plant in the in

28:52

the middle of nowhere. Not that,

28:54

Not that Milwaukee is nowhere. Yeah, Yeah, exactly.

28:58

it's just so, it it, it's like

29:00

a dingy sort of grimy

29:03

has definitely seen better days kind

29:05

of of area, you know,

29:07

it has like a purgatory like feeling,

29:10

which is appropriate for his mental state.

29:12

but there is. with

29:14

the language there is this to

29:18

the mundane ness and how it's shot.

29:20

It's just so

29:22

so as he's walking out he runs

29:24

into the guy who is his rival

29:27

for the job and they're walking and

29:31

uh I mean,

29:33

it's such a a great

29:36

to end cold open because

29:40

he this guy is his rival

29:42

and he needs to do something about it, so

29:44

he pushes him in front of a truck.

29:48

So this is Marcus Toji, uh, playing

29:50

the character Stephen Chichu,

29:54

I accosted him once at an audition. I saw

29:56

him at an once and made him take a picture with me.

29:58

Oh yeah. That's definitely one. You gotta, you

30:00

gotta, you gotta get the,

30:01

I I watched, uh, I watched

30:03

several episodes of West wing over the

30:06

that long was

30:09

like a high And it was one of those things

30:11

where I was like, holy shit. there he is. You

30:13

Steven.

30:14

Yeah.

30:16

That moment. Which is, by the way,

30:18

under four minutes into the show.

30:21

And all of us being professional writers,

30:23

and something we've talked about before, the, the

30:25

amount of pressure, um,

30:28

on a show, for you to establish

30:30

the character's motivations, establish their

30:32

likability, establish their competence,

30:35

And keep it entertaining.

30:37

Keep it entertaining. In the first

30:40

Few minutes of this show, we

30:42

see this character be late, blow

30:44

an interview, and push apparently,

30:47

a very apparently sweet and innocent

30:50

person, who is more competent than him,

30:52

in front of a truck. And

30:55

everything that Sean said about him saving

30:57

the world, we find that out as the show

30:59

is doled out, but we don't know any

31:01

of that at this point, we just know this guy.

31:03

And it's also, the, one of the things that's

31:05

impressive about this show, is

31:08

the violence in it is not

31:10

like fun spy violence

31:12

it you really feel the fun

31:14

Mm hmm.

31:15

truck hits him

31:16

yeah

31:16

it's like this is This is awful.

31:20

But of course it's brilliant.

31:23

It's just like you're starting your

31:25

show there with your main character

31:28

It's, it's amazing. And

31:30

they do it they do it also the

31:32

the steven character. Um,

31:35

really I think

31:37

opens the door to the Most

31:40

absurdist of all the storylines,

31:42

I think the one that's I think

31:44

least grounded in reality Um,

31:47

and it's still just balanced

31:50

and perfectly done, but would you agree

31:53

yeah, would you agree that the, again,

31:56

I don't want to give you agree that the Stephen

31:59

thread throughout the series?

32:01

I think is grounded

32:03

in

32:04

Well, I think it's, I think what you're talking about, if I'm, if

32:07

I'm not mistaken, is the, is

32:09

the idea that this guy is him

32:14

memory is slowly coming back and

32:17

there, This is all in the pilot. He's there

32:20

uh, correct

32:23

his work. I forget what even the work

32:25

Right. but even the, Even the point that somebody

32:27

would bring in, the,

32:30

The part that I, when I say it's not grounded, I would

32:33

bring in interviewee

32:36

who is now, has a severe brain

32:39

to correct the work of

32:41

the actual employee, like, that is

32:43

not grounded in reality, but I'm not saying that as

32:45

a knock, I'm saying that, not pun I'm

32:48

saying that as That is,

32:50

adds to tone

32:52

of this show is slightly

32:57

And that storyline really

32:59

makes that absurdity clear in a

33:01

really cool way.

33:02

There is an element that I kind of, and maybe

33:05

this is just, uh, as we call it in the geek

33:07

world, headcanon, that I am explaining.

33:09

But, uh, There's part of it that

33:11

a lot of the things like that, that

33:14

are like, oh, well, he would be fired or he would

33:16

be gone. Some of that comes from

33:19

that Leslie Claret played by Kurtwood Smith,

33:22

just this.

33:24

It just, that's Some of the best

33:26

acting ever seen.

33:27

I absolutely agree. and,

33:29

uh, he's doing, he's going

33:31

to his, his toolbox. Like Kurtwood

33:34

Smith has been playing this on that seventies show. He's

33:36

been playing variations of the

33:39

ultimate intimidating authority

33:41

dad figure in various different

33:44

things. So he like has

33:46

that, and this is this refined

33:48

version. And one of the, one

33:50

of the refinements. is

33:53

Kurtwood Smith is justifiable

33:55

in everything that he's doing. Lake, Lakeman

33:58

is, is screwing up every step

34:00

of the way. The point I was trying

34:02

to get to is it

34:04

feels like, uh, some

34:07

of this is government nepotism,

34:09

like there are hands behind the scenes.

34:12

That are making sure that he stays

34:14

in place. Obviously his sort

34:16

of resume was rigged and his recommendations

34:18

were rigged. But I feel like my

34:20

headcanon is there's a lot of stuff

34:23

going on that we're not seeing

34:25

that is keeping him in that Which

34:27

may not be true, So

34:29

that to me leavened some of the,

34:32

the absurdity of it.

34:34

Absolutely. Yeah.

34:36

And so they're bringing to

34:38

chew back in. It's like, all right,

34:40

well, we're stuck with this guy, so

34:42

we can't fire him. Let's just bring the other guy

34:45

back in is, was my reasoning.

34:48

also those

34:50

moments, one of those, like. You're

34:53

watching something and holy

34:55

shit. Like it's just so

34:58

over the top in that moment when he pushes

35:01

him in front of the Like I, I never felt

35:03

like, Oh,

35:05

I know what's going to going to happen here. such

35:07

a big, It was such a big move

35:09

that I, that I also was was like, okay,

35:12

I'm in a hundred percent I

35:15

don't have to wait till Andy's episode for

35:17

her.

35:18

How many people did I

35:21

have a theory that absolutely

35:23

true. I've never done a lot of great shows.

35:25

They don't click in until episode four, which

35:28

Sean has been fighting me on. Uh,

35:31

but this episode, this show absolutely immediately.

35:33

I was like, Oh my God, this may be my favorite

35:35

show. what, how many

35:37

people do you think watched it? And

35:40

we're screw this

35:43

for, that seems like reasonable. Sean, what's your guess?

35:46

She's at four, four people.

35:47

I always go over, so I'm going to

35:49

say five, but I

35:52

actually feel like if you're somebody who found

35:55

this show and you got to that moment, there's

35:57

no way you could just walk away away at that. Agreed.

35:59

You

36:00

mean if the robot overlords decided you

36:02

should watch this show

36:03

Yeah.

36:04

there's always hands behind the scenes That's my

36:06

head canon is that the people who watched it there

36:08

was pulling strings no,

36:12

I just feel like it's it's

36:14

such a perfect cold

36:16

open because you

36:19

said it establishes everything about the main character

36:21

and the tone of the show and everything. and then it also

36:23

Story wise makes you go, Holy

36:26

shit. This guy's in huge trouble.

36:28

What's going to happen next? And you want

36:30

to see, you know, um,

36:33

and then we get a bunch of exposition about

36:35

what's going on, which again is

36:37

hard to do, but it's done in kind

36:39

of a cool way because it's,

36:42

the sound of a newscast

36:45

slow motion

36:47

was killed

36:48

what the newscast describing.

36:51

As a big problem. We

36:53

The guy that they wanted to

36:54

some nuclear shit going on in Iran,

36:56

which I believe is, is still the case.

36:58

case. If I'm

36:59

Right.

37:01

there's all kinds of, uh, him have

37:03

this. Let's not let him have this, whatever the

37:05

case, there's an election coming up in Iran,

37:07

and this is trying to get to

37:09

get involved

37:11

The good guy was killed in

37:14

the crash.

37:15

Or the guy, yes, The guy that they

37:17

wanted to to win. The guy that

37:18

they wanted to win the election is killed on the

37:20

crash.

37:21

Who's going to keep Iran from having nuclear

37:23

weapons. Right. the bad guy

37:26

is is going to, is going to, so they need

37:28

to stop that by doing

37:31

CIA things, which is

37:33

what they get uh, later. And this is

37:35

where we see. Terry O'Quinn as Tom Tavner

37:37

calling and getting his son, his son

37:40

to come over. He's like, cancel your

37:42

plans and get over And,

37:44

uh, we start to, then

37:47

he has his conference with a

37:49

woman. See, again, I love the spy

37:51

shit. Like, they're not in an office anywhere.

37:53

They're just on a weird balcony backlit

37:56

like Andy is right now. Having

37:59

a conversation. I set

38:01

the backlighting.

38:02

it was an homage.

38:03

That's right.

38:06

But we find out that the guy

38:08

that we've already seen is the son of this other

38:10

guy and that he's a spy and he works for the CIA

38:13

superior and it's a little weird. I mean, it's just such

38:16

a great and it, never felt

38:18

there's so much information there and it never felt

38:21

clunky to me, which is, which is

38:23

where you get in

38:25

Yeah, you're right. And I don't know,

38:27

I like, I'm so, I

38:30

respect it so much. I'm also so jealous

38:32

of the writing because it, so

38:34

much but you're never,

38:36

and even for me, like the

38:39

first time I watched it, there was so much going on that I was

38:41

like, I don't, if you wanted me to give,

38:43

write a book report on this show, what happened? I don't

38:45

know if I could time I watched it,

38:47

because there's so much going on, but I

38:49

couldn't stop watching It It was

38:51

just done in such an artful way.

38:55

Well, that's the other thing is that they have, uh, it

38:57

was a term that that Conrad and his people

38:59

have that they use something that's

39:01

sort of just general plot

39:03

exposition. You don't have to follow that's

39:05

from team America. And then they combine it with Treadwell

39:08

from from born identity.

39:10

And it's basically just like, this is just stuff,

39:13

we're gonna, we're gonna get it all right, but

39:15

you don't need to process it.

39:17

right?

39:18

and, and this is exactly like that. The

39:20

only thing that is the main information that you get

39:22

from that Terry O'Quinn scene, also

39:24

just breathtaking in this series, Yes. uh,

39:27

that he's basically admitting that his

39:29

son is a little bit off the

39:32

rails. He's like, he's good, you know, he's good

39:34

at the job, but he's been singing these

39:36

songs that are, you know,

39:38

basically revealing some of his mission,

39:40

which obviously is not good for a spy.

39:43

And then he sort of has the side, like

39:45

dad thing of like, the songs are

39:47

actually pretty good.

39:48

I mean, maybe I'm biased. I'm his dad. I

39:52

was wonderful. It's like, I kind of like,

39:54

it's hard to get a sense of him and they

39:56

take their time in this pilot. So later

39:58

you see the, you see him singing

40:00

with his son and there's

40:02

this bond between them. You're kind of like, Oh, that

40:05

kind of origin story

40:07

reverse explains why

40:10

he would, you know, be like, the songs

40:12

are kind of good. My question to

40:14

you guys right off the top, and this

40:16

might be tough without spoilers, but do

40:19

you feel like

40:21

he is putting John

40:24

in this, in

40:26

this mission because

40:29

you think he's, he thinks he's the best?

40:31

He'll be the best for it? That he

40:34

can control him, or

40:36

that he's trying to help him. Like,

40:40

he wants to be connected to his son, and

40:42

he he just is better if he's in

40:44

the field.

40:45

I think it's it's all of them.

40:47

Right, right. And,

40:49

know, it, it really brings up they

40:52

also get into this delicate dance,

40:54

which they do in the first episode. Not

40:56

even delicate, just an outright dance of

40:59

the, the relationship between the two

41:01

brothers how, you know,

41:04

John is really the alpha and

41:06

Ed is just so in awe of his brother.

41:08

And the, the, scene in the, pilot where Terry

41:12

O'Quinn asks, um, Michael

41:14

Chernus about the incident

41:17

from when they were little kids is such

41:19

a, such a, funny and

41:21

cool and interesting way. for

41:25

Terry O'Quinn to ask his son, because

41:28

basically he's asking that question because he wants to know

41:30

if this guy will put his life on the line for

41:32

his brother. That's what he wants to know. He's like, will you,

41:34

he can't outright ask him your

41:36

life on the line for your brother? Will protect

41:39

your brother at all costs? Instead, he says,

41:41

did you break my. camcorder

41:45

and he's like, no, I didn't. And

41:47

that

41:48

so committed to the

41:49

oh, He's so committed to the lie.

41:52

And what a great way to get that And

41:54

that is something, like, as a writer that

41:56

I love. It's like, we

41:59

need to get this information to the audience.

42:01

We could do it in a really boring way. or we

42:03

could do it in a really fun, roundabout

42:05

way that's so interesting to watch.

42:07

What's

42:08

oblique angle to

42:09

to come in at? I totally

42:11

agree with you and I think it also is like, it's

42:13

a great way that the opening credits,

42:16

which we skipped over, is this like Super 8

42:18

ish. kind of old footage of them as kids

42:21

kind of playing and shooting and

42:23

doing the stuff that's like with this

42:25

eerie folk music that's

42:27

again a perfect tone

42:28

Yeah.

42:29

it's like what kind of spy show is this and

42:32

and it ties back with the camcorder

42:34

of them playing as kids busting the camcorder

42:36

and he's watching like why am I watching this? I

42:39

was wondering also if there's some level

42:41

and I think that what you're saying is probably more

42:43

dead on, but I wonder if there was some level in that scene

42:46

of Terry O'Quinn testing, are

42:48

you still

42:50

CIA material that you're just going to lie

42:52

straight down the line and not,

42:55

not blink, as

42:57

it was more

42:58

it's more about protecting. Yeah,

42:59

protecting, protecting

43:01

his brother, but maybe it was because, it, because the

43:04

otherwise he wouldn't, he didn't get the outcome

43:06

he Right. Right.

43:08

Um, so this is also

43:10

where we find out that the the son is in Amsterdam

43:13

and then we, then we over

43:15

there and he is singing

43:18

folk songs. I,

43:20

to your point, Andy, I think it is about, Sure.

43:23

this guy is great at being a spy,

43:26

but the father also knows that he's kind

43:29

of mentally unraveling because

43:31

of what what he's been through, which we

43:33

find out a lot more about later, including

43:35

murdering an And that's

43:38

really undone him.

43:40

And, uh, so I think it is about

43:43

accidentally murdering.

43:44

yes, Yes. it was, he got bad

43:46

information. Um,

43:50

he sings a song about why are there mail maids

43:52

in Egypt or whatever it is and nowhere else.

43:55

Uh, but, uh,

43:57

but you know, this is an opportunity

43:59

for him to reclaim

44:01

his sanity and his, know, sense of himself.

44:04

Because he feels feels so badly about

44:06

having you know, um,

44:09

so we get to see him just getting in

44:12

and riding his bike and singing songs

44:17

hilarious

44:18

to talk about, um, uh, Michael

44:20

Dorman for a second. Just

44:24

such a difficult part and so

44:26

compelling. And that scene

44:28

you're describing is like an example of that,

44:30

of like, there's this softness

44:33

and vulnerability and like, when you see

44:35

his joy it makes you so happy. 90

44:38

percent of the show is him with the smile. He's

44:40

got this blank faced weight

44:42

on him.

44:43

like when he when he sees his brother,

44:46

when he's high and he looks up in he

44:49

sees his brother, this is the smile. You just like feel

44:51

it all over your whole body.

44:53

Yeah. also, uh,

44:55

he's from New Zealand, which I

44:57

Yes!

44:58

idea because the other thing that,

45:00

that, uh, Sean and I know him from is for

45:02

all mankind is Gordo. another,

45:06

you know, just

45:06

Which He's also great. in.

45:08

Yeah. He's also great in and a

45:10

different part.

45:11

very different.

45:12

Yeah. Although

45:13

Um,

45:15

have you seen for all mankind

45:16

I have not.

45:17

Oh, right up your alley. You would

45:18

Alright. It's got man

45:21

in the title. So it must be,

45:24

this is also to me, this was also

45:26

the first moment. I guess there was a

45:29

couple couple of them. Uh, this

45:31

sequence, first moment where

45:33

I'm watching it and I'm becoming aware

45:35

of how really,

45:38

out of the way they've gone with cinematic

45:41

uh, shots, like the

45:43

shot of him sitting on the the bench.

45:46

In the park, it's an overhead shot

45:48

and there's all these different paths leading

45:51

in different directions and the cop

45:53

is just such a fucking cool

45:56

thing. And and looking at the birds,

45:58

I don't know. It was just that whole sequence

46:00

was so impressive

46:03

and, to your point about like the when you're

46:05

listening to the newscast, but you're watching the slow motion

46:07

helicopter blade sort of spin across

46:10

and in shots like you're describing.

46:12

And there's tons of shots in this. that

46:15

are either, uh, long oners,

46:17

just one shot which is what the end

46:20

of the show is. And, or,

46:22

you're watching one person in focus and then there's another

46:24

person out of focus that's talking. And

46:27

all of this really reads very cinematic

46:29

and very indie film. Like,

46:31

not even, not even

46:33

like, big Hollywood film.

46:35

Right!

46:36

odd visual choices.

46:39

Yeah, some of it is like the, like that shot

46:41

that you're describing, Sean, looking down. It

46:43

feels very Wes direct

46:47

direct shot and

46:49

it's, but you're right, it feels like an indie film.

46:52

so then we see Edward canceling

46:54

his plans with a a little kid who

46:57

is ostensibly his,

46:59

I don't they called it, friend

47:01

and in the

47:02

Beltway buddy.

47:03

Yeah. Yeah. Beltway buddy. establishing

47:06

a bunch of characters. We see Edward,

47:08

we see Tom go by the school to see

47:11

John Lakeman's wife, who he

47:13

hasn't seen in a long time and sort of say,

47:16

He's going to be back, but then he's going to leave again.

47:18

So just be chill, you

47:21

know? see

47:23

in that character, the difficulty of being

47:25

involved with somebody who who does the stuff

47:28

This main how hard

47:30

that And that's played

47:32

by Kathleen Monroe

47:34

is Alice's wife. And 1 of the

47:36

things that Conrad talked about that really

47:39

essential for the show is

47:41

that they, they sort of in trying to put

47:43

twists on some of the tropes. You

47:45

know, the, the classic one being with the spy

47:47

is the big womanizer. Um,

47:50

they wanted to have, he'd be thoroughly

47:52

committed and in love with his wife. and

47:56

it's so heartbreaking because of course,

47:58

if you're in that position and you're a spy and you're constantly

48:01

overseas in danger and you can't get in touch

48:03

and you can never relax,

48:05

even, you know, when you're home, it's like

48:07

when they're together, it's so beautiful.

48:10

And you feel so, it's such pain

48:12

for John. No, it is. That he's separated

48:14

from her.

48:15

He's just constantly pining for her. And like,

48:18

you know, at one point he's covered

48:20

in blood and just calls his wife

48:22

and is like, did you set the alarm? It's

48:25

so great.

48:27

and that's, and, and even that character,

48:29

her character, the easy way to

48:31

go, I think would have been that the spouse

48:33

would have been like, is bullshit

48:36

happens, whatever and

48:38

it's this slow burn to she trusts the

48:40

father She knows he

48:42

has to do whatever he has to do,

48:45

and it's just this slow

48:47

burn to any reaction from

48:49

her that kind of

48:51

makes you feel just bad for everyone. You

48:53

immediately have your sympathy for everyone

48:55

in the situation.

48:57

so then we see the, oh,

48:59

so we, we've already talked about this a little bit, but the father assigns

49:02

Edward to go to go to Amsterdam and bring his brother

49:04

back And

49:07

that's when we see that beautiful of

49:10

looking up and seeing his brother and just smiling

49:13

and you feel the, the between

49:15

them. And then And then we come

49:17

to one of the things that again is such

49:19

a holy shit moment, but it's

49:22

so awful, but also so funny

49:24

to me. Yeah. Which is the grandmother

49:26

reading, uh, uh, Mary Poppins

49:28

to the Beltway buddy and

49:31

saying she flew with an umbrella. And

49:33

then that scene of

49:35

him marching across the

49:37

dining room or whatever with the

49:39

Oh my god, my heart was just like,

49:41

UGH! UGH!

49:44

jumping off the building is

49:46

Incredible. Incredible.

49:49

So upsetting. And they don't shy away. The

49:51

kid breaks his, his ankles

49:53

Yeah! It's

49:54

and his

49:54

feet. And. He's in a wheelchair

49:56

the rest of the episode. It's

49:59

just like, that's a child! One

50:01

of the main characters! of

50:03

his fuck up, a kid broke his ankles.

50:06

That's like in

50:08

episode one.

50:09

Yeah.

50:10

so dark. It's so dark. It's, but you're

50:12

right, it's like, how can we make all of this even

50:14

sadder?

50:16

And yet I found it hilarious

50:18

at the same same time. Yeah. You know?

50:20

Cause he doesn't

50:21

Which is like, which is like right in

50:23

my wheelhouse is incredibly

50:25

dark and and incredibly funny at the

50:27

same And to what we were talking

50:29

about before coming at exposition oblique

50:32

angle. We then see,

50:34

uh, uh, the child's mother

50:37

called Edward on the phone

50:39

and is screaming at him about

50:41

how he left the kid with the grandmother and said,

50:43

one of the things she says is, I

50:46

can't believe you're a congressman when

50:48

you would do something like that. I mean, she says it much

50:50

more, much less directly

50:53

than I did But that's where we kind of find out what

50:55

this guy's job is and why he's involved

50:57

in all in all this which Again

51:00

to me, I was like, cool.

51:02

Yeah, Yeah, Um,

51:05

and so John doesn't want

51:07

to leave to leave because he has, he

51:10

has a bull riding contest

51:12

he's gotta win that cash prize. That's how he's been,

51:14

uh, keeping himself afloat.

51:16

And he has this plan. He's going to bicycle

51:18

across Europe. He's going to bring Alice

51:20

with him. It's this, it's this

51:22

beautiful thing that really, even at this point

51:25

in the series, we're just like,

51:28

He wants, he want,

51:30

traffic. We're already rooting for him.

51:32

wants to look at

51:33

at the Spanish birds. Yeah. And,

51:35

so when in that scene, which is also shot

51:37

very in kind of almost a Sam Raimi

51:40

shot of him on the bull and the brothers

51:42

watching, it's so subtle,

51:46

he releases the bull and

51:48

intentionally loses.

51:50

Because of course he could win. He's from Texas.

51:51

He's from Texas. All these other people are

51:54

from, where are they at that point? Is that Amsterdam?

51:56

They're in Amsterdam, but they're like, there's a guy from the

51:58

there was a British guy who went up before

52:00

him, him. Yeah. Yeah.

52:02

So whatever

52:03

But that's his choice. It's his choice

52:05

to say, I choose this. Life

52:08

of chaos and danger, Which

52:11

I think he's addicted to. I don't know why

52:13

at this point,

52:14

Well, but but I also saw it as

52:16

him going, I do want to go home and see my wife

52:18

right now. Like, It's like he to

52:21

go back there and you know, he is from Texas,

52:24

know, it turns out out Texas is a bit of a

52:26

a mixed bag because you do learn

52:28

how to ride bulls, but they also try

52:30

to ban methopristone for the entire mean, there's all

52:33

all sorts of

52:34

Let's talk about Texas for two hours.

52:37

Um,

52:38

Sean likes to dig in on the deep political issues

52:40

right in the middle of our TV pilot podcast.

52:43

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think we live in the real world,

52:45

even though we spend a lot of time in in the imaginary

52:48

world, you know.

52:49

Not me. I'm going right back to Lord of

52:51

the Rings after this. um, yeah,

52:54

I, I really feel like it's. it's.

52:56

tied to stuff

52:58

about the father and obligation

53:01

and like, he

53:03

has so much weight on his shoulders the whole time

53:06

and the understanding of what he, you

53:08

know, he believes what his father believes

53:10

of like, I'm doing this

53:12

for the safety of the country

53:15

and maybe the world. Um,

53:17

but I think it's mostly that that is what his dad

53:19

thinks. So it's this weird, which

53:21

of course, his father is kind of using

53:25

against him emotionally, consciously

53:27

or unconsciously. And so I think that's all

53:29

loaded into when he releases the

53:31

bull, which is crazy.

53:34

Yeah.

53:35

like, how much would you have

53:37

to spell out if this was, you

53:39

know, more of a network pilot?

53:42

Oh God. I couldn't imagine. Can you imagine network notes

53:44

all over this? It would have ruined

53:47

it.

53:47

It would have been a totally different show. But frankly,

53:49

even anywhere, because, and frankly,

53:52

their perspective would have been reasonable.

53:54

It's just like, you're taking a big chance,

53:57

and like, you know.

53:59

Is it possible, is

54:01

it possible for the main character

54:04

not to have assassinated an innocent

54:07

person by accident? No,

54:10

no, it's not.

54:12

not. No. What What if instead he

54:14

helped him from being hit

54:16

by a

54:17

he starts to shoot him. Then he helps

54:19

him clean the room. and

54:22

then, okay. So then we go back, we're back in

54:24

the States with the dad

54:26

briefing John. And again, it's

54:29

a exposition But

54:31

it's really enjoyable to watch because

54:33

they just go through a book like they're playing

54:36

frisbee They're hanging out by the pool.

54:38

They, they interrupted by speculating about Edwards

54:40

like I think that's where the father goes That's

54:43

his kid, right? Like

54:44

Yeah.

54:45

he

54:46

The Beltway buddy, It's probably

54:48

his son. Right,

54:49

Right, Um, but in the

54:51

meantime, we get explanations of what he's and

54:54

why he has to go to Luxembourg because Luxembourg

54:56

is the only country in Europe that does business with

54:59

Iran, All this stuff. That's going to have

55:01

a huge impact later

55:04

on. they sing together. That's

55:06

sort of the end of that sequence what,

55:08

what we talked about before that the

55:10

dad and him are singing together. Um,

55:14

And then we're back in the, in the interview

55:16

day, which happened, obviously we're

55:18

doing a time jump back interview day and

55:20

he has to give them a, urine

55:23

sample so that they can decide trustworthy.

55:28

But of course, he's been doing nothing but smoking weed

55:30

in Amsterdam. Of course.

55:33

Um, and the other thing, just in terms of the

55:35

structure, that's, it's so,

55:38

and I wonder to a certain degree, this is from,

55:40

uh, from Conrad's experience writing

55:43

movies. It's so sure handed,

55:45

the leap time

55:47

wise. And that we're going

55:49

to be on board and figuring it out and everything's

55:51

fine. And it's so effective to

55:54

have it slowly lay out information

55:56

and Um,

56:00

but yeah, then he's where we,

56:02

uh,

56:03

well, but I also want to just mention

56:05

that before we get to the bathroom,

56:08

we get just for a second

56:11

to the character of Jack Birdbath,

56:13

who was A cop

56:15

who accidentally shot some, shot

56:17

a child, I think, right? Wasn't that his, his

56:20

problem? And he,

56:22

uh, so we, we only just see him. We

56:24

don't even. doesn't have an interaction

56:26

with woman in the office

56:30

who's clearly taken with him.

56:31

She's disgraced. He's disgraced.

56:33

disgraced.

56:34

disgraced.

56:35

So just wanting to say it, just want

56:37

to be the first person that says it.

56:39

yeah, Uh,

56:42

but it totally loads. the next

56:44

time we see Jack Birdbath, Um,

56:48

so then we're in the bathroom and that's the scene

56:50

where he meets Dennis for the

56:53

first time. And it's

56:56

And Dennis has to give his pee for America.

57:00

And that, I thought that was really interesting

57:02

because it's like, He basically

57:04

tells him the truth about Like

57:07

he's this super secret spy.

57:09

And he goes, he basically goes, I'm a super secret

57:11

spy with dirty urine. So I need to take yours to

57:13

save the world, you know? And,

57:16

but he's also, it's, it's the judgment

57:18

that he's making on this guy, which he nails,

57:20

obviously he's like, this guy is going to be

57:22

so excited to help with spy shit

57:24

that he is only going to be

57:26

on my no matter what and he's right.

57:29

Yes, and it's a stance that

57:31

is consistent with the Lakeman character

57:34

or the John that,

57:37

uh, that he will, he's always

57:39

put in these situations, either by

57:41

his own screw up or by someone else's screw up.

57:44

he's like, all right. I have to solve this

57:46

situation in possibly

57:49

the darkest way possible, or maybe it'll

57:51

be an easy way or whatever, but I have to solve it.

57:53

And so, he does the thing that no other

57:55

spy would do, which is, this is the

57:57

deal. that's the only way I'm gonna get out of this, otherwise this

57:59

thing's over anyway. So

58:02

I might as well take the chance. And then it

58:04

works. But of course there's always

58:06

repercussions to every decision he makes

58:08

like that.

58:09

And I want to say about screw

58:11

ups in general, there are so many

58:14

tiny and comical screw

58:16

ups that are done by random

58:19

government officials who are just supposed to be like prepping

58:22

John And they cause

58:24

such huge problems. Like they gave

58:26

him the interview. So that's why he

58:28

was late. they did

58:30

terrible out if he was going

58:32

to fly private or commercial. And like these little

58:35

things that just little mishaps

58:38

ruining everything

58:39

Which is by the fact that his,

58:42

uh, I forget what his getaway

58:45

had bad when gave

58:48

him bad also got

58:51

arrested, which is what what put him

58:53

in, Foreign custody

58:55

for a like they're all just a bunch

58:57

of total,

58:59

which contributes to his trauma because he was tortured.

59:02

Right.

59:03

it's just like, there's a lot of things that that's the

59:05

fucking genius of pushing this guy into traffic

59:07

at the beginning is that then the

59:10

pilot and it's just the beginning is a revelation

59:13

of all of these little details. that

59:15

make us go, well, he was first, he was

59:17

tortured. He killed an innocent person

59:20

and it weighs on him in a way that it doesn't

59:22

again, an interesting twist from

59:24

usual action spy movies

59:27

that it's like every death weighs

59:29

on him or every, you know, every time

59:31

he hurts someone, it's like the worst thing ever

59:33

for him. Um, so

59:35

when he kills the, the mail maid later,

59:37

it's just like this thing that's staying

59:40

in his brain and he has to sing songs

59:42

about it to try and get it out. Um,

59:45

and you're totally right, Allison, his, his, uh, his

59:47

contact that's setting

59:49

him up for the, for the, for

59:51

the flight overseas. Is

59:54

is so perfect to me and

59:57

it's so such just like a small

59:59

little character

1:00:00

Yep.

1:00:00

And it's like so he's so obnoxious

1:00:03

And all the questions john asked of like

1:00:06

well if it's not a private plane

1:00:09

Then this is gonna they're gonna check my bag

1:00:11

because he's traveling, you know, he's transporting

1:00:13

money at that point They're gonna check my bag

1:00:16

and And, uh,

1:00:18

and the, guy's like, we already did

1:00:20

the research. This is what it's like, this annoying

1:00:23

thing. And who amongst us has

1:00:25

not faced that situation

1:00:27

where we even thought ahead, three steps.

1:00:29

We're like, well, this is the thing that

1:00:32

could go wrong. and I'm going to ask you about this. And

1:00:34

then that person is obnoxious about it

1:00:36

and they're wrong. It's just

1:00:38

like, so

1:00:39

But then to add another layer

1:00:42

onto it, there's another contact

1:00:44

who this episode, but who give

1:00:47

him the information about where

1:00:49

the, the Barros brother took

1:00:51

the bag. he's trying to be

1:00:53

like, John, listen to me. These guys are Brazilian.

1:00:55

And he's like, I don't care. I don't need their backstory.

1:00:58

Brazilian, they know martial arts. And

1:01:00

like, it's so funny. Cause now we have a contact.

1:01:03

John is so used to these contacts being such

1:01:05

dummies that he's like, buddy, I don't

1:01:08

need that information, but he really does need

1:01:10

that It's so great.

1:01:12

great.

1:01:12

And then the one other thing, go ahead. Go

1:01:14

ahead. No, no, no, you go. The one other thing

1:01:16

to tie it back to is just, because

1:01:19

of the bad information, he's late to the

1:01:21

initial meeting.

1:01:23

Yep.

1:01:23

Because he's late to the initial meeting, and the

1:01:25

dialogue really spells this out, that

1:01:27

they're like, I don't know which one, this guy's got

1:01:29

a great resume, great recommendation, Lakeman does.

1:01:32

But the other guy really knows his stuff and

1:01:34

he was on time. And

1:01:36

so that is the turning point,

1:01:39

Yes.

1:01:39

the bad information, which leads to him

1:01:41

having to push him into a truck. If

1:01:43

you, if you're going in John's head of like,

1:01:46

I have to accomplish this mission. And

1:01:48

he doesn't like. So even from John's

1:01:50

perspective, I didn't want to do this. I

1:01:53

was put in this position.

1:01:57

Um, want to go back to what you were saying

1:01:59

and because that was what I took away from the bathroom is

1:02:02

like, he is just constantly

1:02:04

confronted with incredibly but

1:02:08

he has the license to do whatever

1:02:10

he needs to do to solve including.

1:02:15

Not to, you know, say this,

1:02:17

but a license to kill. If he needs to kill somebody,

1:02:19

he can just kill them. And if he needs to tell somebody

1:02:21

the truth, he can do that. And we're just

1:02:23

gonna see that over and over again. Like, how

1:02:25

am I gonna fix this thing that's right

1:02:27

in front of me right And I was also thinking

1:02:30

that in terms of metaphor,

1:02:33

if, if the, mi, this

1:02:36

show, our podcast

1:02:38

is the mission. Andy

1:02:41

is the John Lakeman and I'm the government

1:02:43

official because Andy is always like, What

1:02:45

if this happens? What if we do this? And

1:02:47

I'm like, it's fine. Don't

1:02:50

worry about it. It'll be fine. um,

1:02:53

show,

1:02:54

either person can be wrong constantly.

1:02:56

And that is the only overlap

1:02:58

you have with John Lakeman. Well, I don't

1:03:00

know. We both have icy blue

1:03:02

eyes. We're both, uh, very,

1:03:05

uh, Uh, Certainly both worn

1:03:07

down by life is more

1:03:09

legitimate reasons than I do.

1:03:11

And then we have another, another

1:03:14

great, what I love in this,

1:03:17

it's just a great entrance cause we met

1:03:19

this guy before briefly.

1:03:23

And then while, while John is

1:03:25

screwing the top on the urine. A

1:03:28

nightstick just rolls

1:03:30

out of the stall

1:03:33

very ominously. and it's such a

1:03:35

long moment of just a nightstick

1:03:37

rolling across the floor of the

1:03:39

Because he just audibly admitted that he's

1:03:42

government

1:03:43

Right. And then Jack

1:03:45

Birdbath comes out and says, basically,

1:03:47

I and John is in

1:03:49

trouble because this guy knows everything And

1:03:52

he's disgraced. So what's he going to do with

1:03:54

that that knowledge?

1:03:56

also the great detail that is consistent

1:03:58

with a lot of different characters, which is Jack Bird Beth

1:04:01

is incredibly intimidating

1:04:03

and ominous. And, and it seems

1:04:06

like a threat when the nightstick rolls

1:04:08

out. And, but at the same time, he's

1:04:10

pulling up his as he's

1:04:12

coming out. it's clearly was

1:04:14

a mistake that he dropped uh,

1:04:17

the nightstick. But he's still intimidating.

1:04:20

again, uh, perfectly cast.

1:04:23

Perfectly cast.

1:04:24

Then we see, uh, Edward in

1:04:26

his meeting with, forget

1:04:28

who, but some secretary of something or other, who's

1:04:30

going to make somewhere. And all he cares

1:04:34

badge. He wants an attaché badge.

1:04:36

And the guy's like, I don't think that's that's a thing. Well,

1:04:39

can I make one? So that, the

1:04:41

guy's like,

1:04:42

you can, it'll be weird if

1:04:44

you do that.

1:04:48

and then we go through him taking

1:04:51

this bag money flight

1:04:53

and to be able able

1:04:55

to, uh, on a private jet

1:04:57

and then he's about to take it on

1:04:59

a commercial jet and

1:05:02

you know, to, he has to

1:05:04

check the bag and that becomes an issue when

1:05:06

somebody on the other side in Brazil

1:05:09

finds the money steals

1:05:11

it. and even there, that

1:05:13

character is so tiny, but before

1:05:16

we see money, we learn that

1:05:18

everybody makes fun of him of him because he's,

1:05:21

he's just a you know,

1:05:23

I don't know. I'm curious what you guys take is on this,

1:05:25

but just going back to the original point of like, that

1:05:27

a lot of the, the white guy patriarchy

1:05:30

stuff, even though it's, it's heavily white

1:05:32

guy, uh, uh, Wade

1:05:35

satire and commentary. That

1:05:38

character who's Brazilian,

1:05:41

um, is a small character, but

1:05:43

is dignified. He has a story,

1:05:45

he has brothers. He's being Harassed

1:05:48

by these people, uh, that he works with.

1:05:53

it's just like, it's a, it's a brief but full

1:05:55

character.

1:05:56

has his own little arc, yeah. Like

1:05:59

when He's driving away on the scooter. you

1:06:01

just see this. It's so

1:06:04

funny.

1:06:05

great. And the other thing I wanted to say about that moment

1:06:08

is Because, you would think

1:06:10

that the classic, even if you were doing a reversal

1:06:12

on the spy thing, it would be like, ah, he's actually an

1:06:14

idiot. He's a bumbling, you know, Clouseau.

1:06:17

even in that moment, John

1:06:19

saw this situation coming. When

1:06:22

the bag doesn't come out, he knows something's

1:06:24

up.

1:06:25

He knows where to go, what to do.

1:06:26

He knows what to do. He sees the other

1:06:29

guy with the bag, doesn't hesitate, runs after

1:06:31

him, and peels off, doesn't even keep,

1:06:33

right, he peels off and bashes

1:06:36

the other security guy in the head so he can immediately

1:06:38

check the guy's information. it's

1:06:40

like instantaneous. He's a professional,

1:06:43

and like all professionals, he sometimes

1:06:46

screws up badly or it is screwed up

1:06:48

for him. So it really grounds

1:06:50

it in reality, even as he's being a badass.

1:06:53

and it's a great demonstration

1:06:55

of like, this guy knows

1:06:57

every do, and

1:07:00

he's allowed to do whatever he needs to do.

1:07:01

he's weighing the consequences,

1:07:04

constantly doing the okay,

1:07:06

yep, it's totally worth it to bang this guy over the head,

1:07:09

keep going.

1:07:10

These are also a lot of things that also

1:07:13

would apply to me.

1:07:14

No.

1:07:15

you are the, uh, uh, John

1:07:18

Lakeman of the podcast.

1:07:19

No.

1:07:22

Uh,

1:07:23

Ruining Patriot for Allison. I

1:07:26

can't

1:07:26

watch this.

1:07:27

I keep thinking about Secunda now.

1:07:30

Uh, so then we get all the information about

1:07:32

where the, where the bag is, figure

1:07:36

out who Edgar is when he's on the phone with,

1:07:38

uh, states who's information

1:07:41

who like you said is trying to convince him like be

1:07:43

careful He has five brothers and they all know

1:07:45

Brazilian jujitsu. jitsu. So

1:07:47

just you know um, and

1:07:50

that's when when

1:07:53

Dennis comes in and tries

1:07:55

to convince him that he could use his help is

1:07:58

just

1:07:59

agree. And just Disrobes

1:08:02

show how cut

1:08:04

I'm ripped. I'm ripped, man.

1:08:05

funny. And then turns around. It's

1:08:09

great. It's just a perfect thing. It's an

1:08:10

interesting thing. I'm sure

1:08:12

there are a lot of other examples other

1:08:14

shows and movies we could, we could point to, but just

1:08:16

like, it's an interesting thing. Cause when I saw that scene originally,

1:08:19

that was the moment where I was like, Oh, he's

1:08:21

friends with this guy. Or he knows this guy. There's

1:08:24

no reason you would take this much time with this

1:08:26

character. Unless this,

1:08:28

the creator was doing this person a favor.

1:08:31

And I think it's partly

1:08:33

true. He's clearly wants to give the ball

1:08:35

to his brother because he's his brother, but he also

1:08:38

wants to give the ball to his brother because he

1:08:40

knows exactly what his brother can do.

1:08:42

His brother is going to nail it. His

1:08:44

brother is going to be an incredible asset

1:08:47

to him in the show. So

1:08:50

usually, when that kind

1:08:52

of move is made, either from nepotism or

1:08:54

whatever it is, it's sort of just

1:08:56

like, well, that person kind of stands out they

1:08:59

didn't, they're, they really shouldn't be the guy.

1:09:02

In this case, that should be the guy.

1:09:04

yeah, and it's also a really important character

1:09:07

in terms of how everything

1:09:09

starts to unravel after this

1:09:12

thing happens because,

1:09:15

it's all set up as a mystery, and

1:09:18

Dennis is key to how

1:09:20

things start is

1:09:24

what happens in the next scene

1:09:26

When. Dennis is following him

1:09:29

out on the street and says, I can

1:09:31

help you. And he says, if you don't get the fuck away from me,

1:09:36

And the three things about that are

1:09:39

one, it shows how instantly

1:09:41

ruthless John can be. It's

1:09:44

not, again, as an example of the violence, it's

1:09:46

not like. Uh, it's kind of funny.

1:09:49

It's just like, it feels like, oh, Jesus, he fucking

1:09:51

stabbed

1:09:51

Yeah, he's like, I like you, Dennis. I don't want to stab

1:09:53

you.

1:09:54

can't believe it.

1:09:55

But I give you one more chance. And he does it again.

1:09:57

he stabs him. Just right there.

1:09:59

It's not like, so, so that's funny. And

1:10:01

it's also hilarious that Dennis is like But

1:10:03

then the other thing is, Linkman's already ahead

1:10:06

of it, that's just like, don't go to the hospital,

1:10:08

because he knows what's going to happen if he goes to the hospital.

1:10:12

So he's already ahead of the game.

1:10:14

Um, uh, and

1:10:17

then Dennis is like, don't go to the hospital.

1:10:19

You're a jerk.

1:10:21

You're a jerk. Yeah. Um,

1:10:23

and I also have to point out that this is where we

1:10:25

see, Uh, Gil Bellows

1:10:28

again saying that he hire

1:10:31

Japanese girls to accompany him

1:10:33

to dinner or maybe

1:10:35

to whip the back of his legs with with Twizzlers.

1:10:38

And that'll come back later.

1:10:40

Yeah, it's just so funny that such

1:10:42

a specific um.

1:10:45

it's very much in the background, like that is

1:10:48

almost lost.

1:10:49

right, right.

1:10:50

Yeah, it's just color. but then you, but

1:10:53

then

1:10:53

it's not color. It like plays in heavily

1:10:55

as does everything,

1:10:57

Um,

1:10:57

will say. Uh, Conrad also

1:11:00

says, which is, I have, I have

1:11:02

a way that I think about, uh, particularly

1:11:04

television series, although comply to movies to

1:11:07

of that. Some people have a creative

1:11:09

morality and some people don't, uh,

1:11:11

which I sort of see is like. It's like

1:11:14

you're making this pact with the audience, particularly

1:11:16

if it's structured in kind of a

1:11:18

suspense filled, mysterious way,

1:11:21

that you're really going to pay things off, but you're not going to pay things

1:11:23

off. Conrad says

1:11:25

they don't move forward until they know

1:11:28

where they are going and where this, all

1:11:31

these arcs are going to end, which

1:11:33

to me is so unusual and

1:11:35

wonderful.

1:11:36

Yeah. that, that, is so this

1:11:40

series was written, that

1:11:43

he had written the whole series the

1:11:45

pilot Because there's things that are set are,

1:11:48

this can't, this can't unfold

1:11:51

like a normal television show where the

1:11:54

story continues and the story continues, like every little

1:11:56

thing is being set up so early

1:11:58

on in such an amazing way.

1:12:00

I hate to say this, but it's sort of like

1:12:03

of like a good Herald.

1:12:05

Uh, alright, so the next thing we see is

1:12:09

is

1:12:10

where's the eject button? I can't find the eject

1:12:12

button.

1:12:13

The next thing we see is the Brazilian

1:12:15

guy's apartment, which again, is

1:12:17

shot in such a cool way

1:12:21

outside. And then the camera just stays

1:12:23

there as he clearly goes

1:12:25

around the building and breaks in,

1:12:28

and we're just watching this guy watch TV,

1:12:30

And then all of a sudden, comes

1:12:32

in and tells him in very halting,

1:12:35

tone, Portuguese, bag belongs

1:12:37

to me. I'm I'm taking it. Don't move.

1:12:40

then there's that great moment. I mean, your

1:12:44

point before Alison about how it's

1:12:46

a

1:12:46

I think he's speaking French. I just wanted to say that.

1:12:48

Oh, okay. Uh, It's

1:12:50

a little, it's a little, I don't

1:12:53

speak anything. So Um,

1:12:57

But the uh, but the brothers all

1:12:59

coming out of the room, all wearing the exact

1:13:01

same underwear, of them

1:13:03

with anything else all of

1:13:06

them giant and looking like they

1:13:08

know their way around an octagon,

1:13:11

it's, it's both like

1:13:14

a little surreal, but also

1:13:16

just so know

1:13:18

another absurdist thing. I think it's just these

1:13:21

guys just that you don't know any of them are there,

1:13:23

and then like five doors

1:13:24

the music too, makes the whole whole

1:13:26

scene, you

1:13:27

Yeah.

1:13:29

Funny, but it also has

1:13:31

been set up like it's

1:13:32

Yeah. Agreed.

1:13:35

we saw it coming and the other

1:13:37

thing that adds to the, the ominousness

1:13:39

of it, even though it's like hilarious,

1:13:42

is they're all slowly descending

1:13:44

on

1:13:44

Yep. Confident, confidence.

1:13:47

They're going to beat him.

1:13:50

And they start doing all kinds of,

1:13:52

uh, arm locks

1:13:54

and yeah. Yeah. and

1:13:56

he's clearly struggling. Yeah.

1:13:59

And it's kind of like, how's he going to get out of this, which is

1:14:01

again, great writing. If you can paint your

1:14:03

character into a um, and

1:14:05

they set up the knife and he stabs

1:14:08

just the right, you know, person at the right

1:14:10

moment them.

1:14:12

So that's like, that's another thing

1:14:15

that's just like one more, one more, tally

1:14:17

on, on John's, uh, on

1:14:19

John's record, uh, emotional

1:14:21

record. he escapes.

1:14:24

And what we don't know yet, but

1:14:27

we learn very soon, is that there

1:14:29

are to no crime.

1:14:32

There's next to no crime in Luxembourg.

1:14:35

wonder, is that

1:14:35

And certainly not any. And certainly

1:14:38

not any murders.

1:14:39

Yeah, they, they do list it on screen at

1:14:42

2011, zero murders, 2012,

1:14:45

zero murders, 2013, three

1:14:47

murders. So he's really having

1:14:50

an effect on

1:14:52

He really,

1:14:52

he's there. yeah,

1:14:54

some, shone some spotlights on himself.

1:14:56

Right. Uh, so then we go back. We're at dinner

1:14:59

where John is supposed to be. Leslie is furious

1:15:01

that John's not there, Doesn't know where he is.

1:15:04

Um, John is hiding in an

1:15:06

alley somewhere and calls,

1:15:09

I guess, first calls his contacts

1:15:11

at the CIA. who sends somebody

1:15:13

to help him and then then calls

1:15:15

his wife, as you said, to see if she

1:15:17

has setting the alarm. And

1:15:20

it's just a very sweet moment. between

1:15:22

them. After he has murdered

1:15:26

by the police driving by, Edward

1:15:28

shows up uses,

1:15:32

uses his attaché badge

1:15:35

to get the police to to do what he wants

1:15:37

them to

1:15:39

Ah, go fuck him up.

1:15:40

Even in that scene. Go fuck

1:15:42

him up. Even in that scene.

1:15:45

clearly doesn't need to. They don't like

1:15:48

his story. They're like, okay, great. And then

1:15:50

he's like, here's my badge. It's like, it's

1:15:52

just

1:15:52

Yes.

1:15:53

in because he wants to use the badge.

1:15:56

Uh, just a very, very funny

1:15:59

character. then, and then

1:16:01

John up at dinner and Dennis

1:16:03

is at a different table and and make sure John

1:16:05

knows that he because Edward

1:16:07

says there's a clean shirt in the,

1:16:09

in the, bag that he can change

1:16:12

dinner, but then he still has his

1:16:15

neck murdered someone

1:16:17

moments ago. And Dennis

1:16:20

helps him realize that not

1:16:22

get caught caught by Leslie.

1:16:24

Yeah, sort of showing that Dennis is

1:16:27

semi on He's on Yeah,

1:16:29

even though he got stabbed in the thigh. He

1:16:31

still wants to Be cool

1:16:34

with this Then

1:16:36

he's at, he's at I guess Well,

1:16:38

he says, I don't know if this is an open mic. I don't

1:16:40

know what the sign said but he's

1:16:43

performing another song again,

1:16:45

just spilling his guts about what just just

1:16:47

happened to And, and

1:16:50

Edward, uh, comes up and

1:16:52

says, we we, we got to get And

1:16:54

my favorite thing about that sequence an

1:16:56

extra sitting in the front of

1:16:58

the entire thing while he's

1:17:00

playing a song. And when he goes,

1:17:03

I'm, I'm, you know, I'm taking off or whatever. gives

1:17:06

this huge, like. like,

1:17:09

very,

1:17:09

She's like, I was enjoying this

1:17:11

Yes. It was so

1:17:13

good.

1:17:13

good. Do

1:17:14

you think that was planned or do you think the extra

1:17:16

just went It just seemed so over

1:17:18

the top. It seemed like one of those things where

1:17:21

maybe nobody realized until later that that

1:17:23

was the best take they had and she

1:17:25

was incredibly distracting, but they had

1:17:27

to use it, you know. You know?

1:17:30

also such comedy in that scene

1:17:32

where John's

1:17:34

singing the song, clearly giving away

1:17:36

like, very top

1:17:38

secret details about this mission, and

1:17:40

his brother jumps up can't

1:17:42

get to the like a waiter,

1:17:45

then there's another table here, and he just takes

1:17:47

him forever to get to the stage.

1:17:49

getting cut

1:17:50

funny. Yeah, it's like, oh, sorry, okay,

1:17:52

you just go by with that. But he doesn't want to cause too

1:17:54

much he is is causing a scene, it's great.

1:17:57

Um, this is also another

1:17:59

moment where. Edward,

1:18:03

you know, and John, there's

1:18:05

this crazy shit going on and

1:18:07

Edward takes a moment to say, I'm always going to be

1:18:09

there there for you. You know, there's like this

1:18:12

very sweet thing to their

1:18:15

that that even when murder

1:18:17

somebody and I

1:18:19

will you get out get

1:18:21

out of that and then

1:18:23

we meet, Agatha.

1:18:26

the detective

1:18:31

Oui, I get.

1:18:32

a I got, yeah.

1:18:35

Uh, she's speaking French, Um, who

1:18:38

knows?

1:18:41

Who, and, and this opens up a

1:18:43

whole other thing that we'll learn more about later,

1:18:46

but the fact that we'll,

1:18:49

again, I don't want to spoil it, but we learned that

1:18:51

the women detectives in

1:18:54

of homicides because

1:18:56

there are never any homicides.

1:18:58

Yeah.

1:18:59

I was shocked that this was established

1:19:01

this early. I had

1:19:04

no memory that it was in the pilot.

1:19:05

I forgot too. I was like, wow, they really

1:19:07

go through everything.

1:19:09

Which really just shows the level

1:19:11

of forethought that this whole series

1:19:14

had. and

1:19:15

So shh.

1:19:16

of the actors, uh, I don't know,

1:19:18

maybe Allison could do better with this name.

1:19:22

Yeah, that was wrong. I

1:19:24

don't know how you say it, but I know that was wrong.

1:19:26

I'm friends with her. on a Harold team

1:19:28

with me. Um, I, she,

1:19:30

uh, she's so again,

1:19:32

perfect casting. Uh,

1:19:35

just because. immediately

1:19:37

holds your attention and holds a certain

1:19:39

authority, so

1:19:41

little to do in this

1:19:44

show. They show her with her daughter, like

1:19:46

they established so much in

1:19:48

this one hour of television.

1:19:51

She's very, she's obviously, she's very beautiful,

1:19:53

but she also just has a gravity Oh

1:19:56

yeah, this this is a detective who's going to be

1:19:58

a problem. know?

1:20:00

Right.

1:20:00

then we see her at the the

1:20:03

crime scene and she says, make a note of anybody

1:20:06

subscribes to tonight.

1:20:10

good at her job.

1:20:11

job. So good at her job. And that's

1:20:13

exactly the mistake

1:20:15

that Dennis makes in the next scene, as well as going

1:20:18

to the hospital. So there, so it all leads back to them.

1:20:20

They're already asking him

1:20:21

But also that John knows that was

1:20:24

a huge mistake for Dennis to subscribe Like

1:20:27

John immediately goes. You know,

1:20:29

he

1:20:29

knows too.

1:20:30

that somebody is going to after him. Yeah.

1:20:33

don't

1:20:33

know. It's like, is John just

1:20:35

going to kill him? Is that just what's going to happen?

1:20:37

Like, that is a possibility with this character,

1:20:40

even after the time we've taken to

1:20:42

make Dennis sort of sympathetic and

1:20:44

funny,

1:20:46

Mm hmm.

1:20:46

right?

1:20:47

and this is when everything starts collapsing on

1:20:49

itself. And, you know, he

1:20:51

gets the threatening note from the Barrows

1:20:53

brothers. Which to me, I

1:20:56

did not notice it the first time around. It's

1:20:58

a threat from the Barrows brothers

1:21:00

that give us the bag back, or we're going to kill you.

1:21:02

And it has a sketch on

1:21:05

it

1:21:06

Yeah.

1:21:06

did it

1:21:07

It's

1:21:09

either for fun or for like, Oh, maybe

1:21:11

you won't know who we are. Right. You did do a little sketch.

1:21:16

Yeah. It's pretty great. Uh, well,

1:21:19

and then at this point is where he gives the money

1:21:21

he's supposed to be delivering. He, the guy, you

1:21:23

know, he talks to the guy on the phone, The guy tells him

1:21:25

where to meet him. He gives them the money.

1:21:27

And then of course he finds out he

1:21:30

gave the money to the wrong guy.

1:21:32

So this is now gone completely

1:21:35

sideways all fucked

1:21:38

up.

1:21:38

Um, and this kind of builds to this one

1:21:40

shot when they go back. To,

1:21:43

uh, when, when, and Kurtwood Smith is already

1:21:46

irritated with it because he was late for the important meeting.

1:21:48

Again, a scene with Kurtwood Smith to me is giving

1:21:50

him too much slack, but I kind

1:21:52

of feel as you get to know that

1:21:54

character more and more and know what he's been through

1:21:57

and stuff like that. It just sort of makes

1:21:59

sense. uh, and he still maintains

1:22:01

that Kurtwood Smith intimidation. But,

1:22:04

uh, it builds to the scene when they're sort of back home,

1:22:07

and it's this long shot that's this

1:22:09

one shot where

1:22:12

all of the threads in

1:22:14

a single one shot are

1:22:16

sort of tied together and heightened

1:22:19

for series.

1:22:20

Yeah.

1:22:20

And it's like, In that way, this

1:22:23

is like, it's, this show is so artistic

1:22:26

and it does so many things to break the form.

1:22:28

But one of the things they always ask an audience

1:22:31

that they're testing a show with at the end is like, well, where do

1:22:33

you think it's going to go? Or whatever, just kind of see

1:22:35

that you're invested. Yeah. Everything

1:22:37

leads to another problem. Like

1:22:40

Birdbath leaves him a threatening note in

1:22:42

the one shot. Um,

1:22:44

Kirtwood Smith is saying you may not be going

1:22:46

on any other trips because you screwed up on this one,

1:22:48

which will of course undermine the whole

1:22:50

purpose of him being there. Uh,

1:22:53

Stephen Tichou shows

1:22:55

up again, has a job there to cover for his mistakes

1:22:58

and in kind of a heartbreaking

1:23:00

performance Because now he's like, injured

1:23:02

his brain and can't even speak right, uh,

1:23:05

but may remember everything

1:23:08

in the future. So that's another thing

1:23:10

that's hanging. Um, and Dennis

1:23:12

says that he went to the hospital and now the police are talking

1:23:15

to him. That's all in one shot. And then it lands

1:23:17

on Kirtwood Smith saying, also

1:23:20

you keep parking in my fucking

1:23:22

parking spot.

1:23:24

Which again, he has to hold

1:23:26

as important as the nuclear

1:23:29

threat. Because if he drops

1:23:31

either ball, the whole mission is fucked.

1:23:34

incredible.

1:23:35

wonderful.

1:23:37

I also just want to mention a scene that we kind of kind of

1:23:39

skipped over because it's such a great scene, even though

1:23:41

it doesn't have anything to do with, it's very

1:23:43

important going forward, but for now it's,

1:23:45

it's, not that important. But it's,

1:23:48

it's, um, Edward

1:23:51

relationship with his son about

1:23:54

how he loved, there was a congressman

1:23:57

who loved to dance and let's call him

1:23:59

cool Rick.

1:24:02

Cool Rick is such a great name.

1:24:04

Yeah. And, and, you know, and

1:24:07

his, Important going forward.

1:24:09

Uh, but, uh, yeah.

1:24:11

So he explains that he got into, to a

1:24:12

certain degree buys back. We were

1:24:14

already like, all right, fuck this character.

1:24:17

And the rest of the time he's obsessed with the badge.

1:24:19

He just seems like a total. And in this moment,

1:24:22

not that it buys back his screw up with the

1:24:24

kid fully with the audience, but at least

1:24:26

we're like, In his own dumb,

1:24:28

completely shut off way,

1:24:31

he's

1:24:31

crying and cares about this kid and

1:24:33

cares about his mother.

1:24:34

Right, and whatever happened, he finally,

1:24:37

for the first time, is telling

1:24:39

this kid that he's his father and that and that he

1:24:41

loves him.

1:24:42

Yeah, and Cool Rick loves you so much!

1:24:45

Yes! So

1:24:48

that's it. then we're then we're hooked for

1:24:50

episode two. two. right,

1:24:52

I hope this gets at least just one

1:24:55

other person to watch this show. It's

1:24:57

such a good show.

1:24:59

I hope so too. it's really

1:25:01

just such a feat of

1:25:03

television and it's, it does make

1:25:05

it even more perfect that it's just like.

1:25:08

quiet, undiscovered thing, other

1:25:11

than by cult, you know, people who are looking

1:25:13

for a cult favorite, it's

1:25:15

just, it was so satisfying. So thank

1:25:17

you, Allison.

1:25:18

Thanks having me.

1:25:19

You're my, you're my number one recommender

1:25:22

now.

1:25:23

I don't want, I don't want that

1:25:25

Well, that's too bad. That's

1:25:26

where Have you heard about Love is Blind?

1:25:30

You're

1:25:31

so Allison, uh, you've had such a,

1:25:34

a,

1:25:35

far reaching career.

1:25:38

You're old?

1:25:40

both as an actor and a writer. Uh,

1:25:42

do you have any, uh, experiences on pilots

1:25:45

that you would like to

1:25:47

Oh, that's an interesting question because I think I'm

1:25:50

in a very, uh, lucky

1:25:52

and unlucky position think

1:25:54

I am one

1:25:57

of, if not, I,

1:25:59

I'm either one of the highest, if not the highest

1:26:03

of have network pilots that I have

1:26:05

tested for and not never booked

1:26:07

one.

1:26:08

Yeah.

1:26:09

mean, I, I'm guessing that at least

1:26:11

two or three dozen I've tested for

1:26:13

a network testing means

1:26:15

it's between you and like two people, you know, you're,

1:26:17

you're really at the end there and you sign the contract

1:26:20

and do, you. do your performance

1:26:22

in front of the execs. And I

1:26:24

just could test and test

1:26:26

and test. And I never booked a network

1:26:29

pilot. and it was

1:26:31

devastating. Every time it happens, is devastating

1:26:33

because you, you sign this contract that's basically like

1:26:36

your life will change. If

1:26:38

you get this job, you sign the paper

1:26:41

and then to

1:26:43

have your final audition, and then, and I was so lucky

1:26:46

that I got where

1:26:48

I got to test but to test. so many times

1:26:51

And never even get one was me,

1:26:53

which is kind of why I stopped acting

1:26:55

so much.

1:26:56

It's a hard business. Yeah.

1:26:59

see them, they show you the money

1:27:01

you're going to make. So it's just

1:27:03

like, Oh man, so

1:27:05

Yeah.

1:27:05

show that to you. They

1:27:07

it's just The amount of nerves

1:27:09

and like, you can't do anything else that day. You have to

1:27:11

do your hair and run your lines. don't

1:27:14

pay you for that day and you can't do anything else

1:27:16

or make any other money. but you, it is just

1:27:19

hardest thing in the world. And

1:27:21

often you're going against your friends too, just

1:27:23

to add more, trauma into

1:27:26

it.

1:27:27

You and I you and I tested, you and I tested

1:27:29

for the same part part at

1:27:30

And you always got it.

1:27:32

Yeah, yeah.

1:27:33

Fuck you.

1:27:35

I ruined, your, I ruined your career.

1:27:37

you. did, you did, many times.

1:27:39

You're going against your friends, you're going against Sort

1:27:41

of different variations of you that offers

1:27:44

like something slightly different. Yep.

1:27:46

Um, and it's several different levels

1:27:49

of, of it can be sort

1:27:51

of, you know, production company, studio,

1:27:53

network, several times at network,

1:27:55

different pairs, pairings to see chemistry.

1:27:59

Um,

1:27:59

and it's, it's every one of them. And

1:28:01

I've been, I've only done it a couple of

1:28:03

times as an actor and mostly

1:28:05

as, uh, you know, on the other side. Okay. And

1:28:08

I always, my heart goes out to everyone going

1:28:10

through that process. and I, I remember

1:28:12

Jon Hamm talking about this, Um.

1:28:20

Andy,

1:28:20

here's

1:28:20

what I think about testing for pilots. But

1:28:23

just being in the same.

1:28:25

Pass me another glass of wine, Andy. And I'll tell

1:28:27

you what I think about pilots. got it,

1:28:29

Johnny. That

1:28:32

he, uh, that he would do the same thing

1:28:34

you're, you're saying and that prior to Mad Men

1:28:36

it would just be like every year just like test,

1:28:39

test, test, not, not getting the part. Test,

1:28:41

test, test, not getting the

1:28:42

And that's Jon

1:28:43

Hamm! And that's Jon Hamm! Uh,

1:28:46

he's much more handsome than you

1:28:47

Yeah!

1:28:49

He, uh, and then with, uh, with, uh,

1:28:51

Mad Men, it was the same thing. It was like an endless

1:28:54

series of testing. And

1:28:56

then he got to the last level and it changed

1:28:58

his career, but it's like, just

1:29:00

as easily could not. It's. so

1:29:03

difficult, but luckily and how

1:29:05

do

1:29:05

you not go into that process

1:29:07

once you've done it a bunch of times

1:29:10

you know, john ham is auditioning for mad men

1:29:12

and he's tested for so many things

1:29:14

and not gotten them How do, you go into

1:29:16

the process and I know you you have to but

1:29:18

how do you not go into the process going like? Well,

1:29:20

this isn't gonna happen. What is the point of You

1:29:23

know,

1:29:23

you do, but then you're also, when you sign that contract,

1:29:26

you're like, Oh, this is, there's

1:29:28

a chance. Also, because I had done

1:29:30

it so many times, everyone from like

1:29:32

industry people family to friends, everyone was

1:29:34

like, I don't, I've never seen someone test

1:29:36

this many times and not get one. Like you're definitely

1:29:39

going to get one at some point. It would be, it would be

1:29:41

like statistically you not

1:29:44

to get one. And I just couldn't get kept

1:29:47

testing.

1:29:48

The most upsetting, well I don't know if it's the most upsetting

1:29:50

or it's the, it's the nice takeaway,

1:29:52

is if you get to that level and

1:29:54

you're testing that much, that means you're great.

1:29:57

That means you do have a look that

1:29:59

kinda they want. It's like,

1:30:01

You're, you have all, they're like, you could get it.

1:30:04

Yeah, you could get it, but it's just like,

1:30:06

and again, just to be it's like, what

1:30:08

the

1:30:09

Yeah, and don't get the money, don't get the experience.

1:30:11

It was just, yeah. Thanks for

1:30:13

reminding me of of that, guys.

1:30:15

Anyway, uh, if you wanna

1:30:17

see her tests, Allison has a YouTube

1:30:19

channel where she puts all of her tests up.

1:30:22

It's just me crying. It's called

1:30:24

career trauma.

1:30:27

Jot net.

1:30:28

Well, luckily for you, Alison, you're multi talented

1:30:30

and now you're killing it as a writer.

1:30:33

thanks Andy. I'm trying.

1:30:35

Um, and you are still out there as an actor.

1:30:38

Yeah. I still do acts. Listen, if someone wants to put me in

1:30:40

a pilot, I won't say no.

1:30:41

And you make your money as a, as a commercial actor.

1:30:44

yeah. Yeah. I'll Also do that.

1:30:46

So this was really more of a like,

1:30:48

just a thorough love fest than any episode

1:30:50

thus far

1:30:52

really

1:30:53

the product. Just because it's like, well, we've had a,

1:30:55

we've had a couple like that, but this one might have been the most

1:30:57

over the top of how much we, we

1:30:59

loved this, you know,

1:31:00

just three people that couldn't say

1:31:02

enough, uh, wonderful things about the show and I,

1:31:04

they all deserved. Yes.

1:31:06

And I agree with Allison. If we could just get

1:31:08

one person to watch the show,

1:31:10

I will feel like mission

1:31:12

accomplished. Same. Yeah.

1:31:14

Yeah.

1:31:15

Uh, thank you so much, Allison Becker,

1:31:18

for joining us. Thank you, friends. Um,

1:31:20

good, good friend, talented

1:31:23

actor, talented writer.

1:31:26

Uh, Queen of, uh,

1:31:28

Los Angeles.

1:31:29

Wow! Thanks! I'll take it! Can't

1:31:32

book a pilot.

1:31:34

uh, alright. ladies and gentlemen,

1:31:36

if you would like to check us out,

1:31:38

We are copilots tv.com.

1:31:42

All of our information is there. Um,

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is it.com ?I don't even

1:31:48

It's dot com. Yes. We tried to get

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wings.

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My wings have still not come. I gave

1:32:14

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1:32:15

No, yeah, I told you Sean, they're not, it's a fake thing.

1:32:17

You just get imaginary pilot's wings.