0:00

This is a Glassbox Media Podcast.

0:34

Welcome to Crawl Space. I'm Tim

0:36

here today with Lance. Lance, how are you

0:38

today? I'm doing fantastic today,

0:40

Tim. I hope everyone out there, I hope they're doing

0:42

just as fantastic. This guest that we have

0:45

on is bringing to the table the really

0:47

tragic death of an individual.

0:49

And as you look into this more

0:52

and you dig deeper, you do find

0:54

that this death is probably most likely

0:56

a homicide. And that is exactly what our guest

0:58

is going to be talking about today. But Tim, what

1:00

I want to be talking about right now is

1:03

your mood. How

1:04

are you? I'm doing all right. Thanks

1:06

for asking. I'm excited to be here. We are

1:08

continuing our series

1:10

of post-Crime Con interviews.

1:13

And we met Melissa Sandberg at Crime

1:15

Con, and she was speaking very passionately

1:17

about investigating the unsolved

1:20

murder of Judith Petty. And

1:22

she's teamed up with a group

1:24

of investigators. In fact, it's called the American

1:27

Military University Cold Case Investigations

1:30

Team. And they're from Charlestown, West

1:32

Virginia. But they're

1:34

also known as the Safe Haven Team. And

1:36

Safe Haven is the name of their podcast

1:39

as well that is looking into Judith

1:41

Petty's death. And she was 48 years

1:43

old when she went missing, and her body was

1:46

found in February of 2008. And

1:48

we get into all of the details here in this conversation

1:51

with Melissa. But Tim, if people want to listen

1:53

to all of these details and not get interrupted by commercial

1:56

breaks, where would someone find

1:58

this episode? Plus every single-

1:59

other episode that we've done without

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and our weekly bonus show that everybody

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media at Crawl Space Podcast or Crawl

2:23

Space Pod. Alright we'll be right back with

2:25

our conversation about Judith Petty with

2:28

Melissa Sandberg right after

2:30

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month of our basic tier. And now let's

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start the episode.

3:11

Hi my name is Mark Chavez and I'm

3:13

the host of Let's Make a Horror, a podcast

3:16

where three comedians try to make a horror

3:18

short film. Why

3:20

am I laughing like a ghost? This is scary for

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exactly a different reason than I thought

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it would be. It is the hardest thing we've ever

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we consult Hollywood horror experts,

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to Leprechaun. To

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be clear this film has zero percent on Rotten Tomatoes.

3:39

Let's

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Make a Horror everywhere you get your podcasts.

3:44

I'm Kathleen Goldhar

3:46

and I'm the host of a new podcast, Crime

3:49

Story. Every week we bring

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you a different crime told by the storyteller

3:53

who knows it best. You got one witness

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who can't be found. You got another witness

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Every crime in one way or another is

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as a city, as a country.

4:11

Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

4:15

And a thank you to our sponsors. Back

4:17

to the program.

4:20

Welcome to the podcast, Melissa

4:22

Sandberg. How are you today? I

4:24

am good. How are both of you? We're

4:26

doing great today because we're

4:28

talking with you about this really frustrating

4:31

homicide. The reason why this is

4:33

such a great moment and it's going to be such

4:35

a great conversation is because we met you at CrimeCon

4:38

and this is one of those byproducts of going

4:40

to CrimeCon or going to one of these festivals,

4:42

meeting people, hearing what they're passionate about,

4:45

and then bringing you on to extend

4:47

the platform that you have already developed

4:50

with this homicide. Feel free to use it however you

4:52

want. We're just in such a fortunate position to

4:54

meet you and have you come on.

4:56

Thank you so much. I'm like starstruck

4:58

right now. I keep staring at both of you and like,

5:00

oh my god, I can't believe this is my life right now. Story

5:02

of my life every morning. I look in the mirror. So

5:06

I'm just so excited that you both were so

5:09

awesome at CrimeCon and that was my first

5:11

time there and I've been a fan

5:13

of yours for years. Of course, you

5:16

know, listening from the Mora Marie onto

5:18

the missing, just a big fan of both

5:20

of you and you were so kind at CrimeCon and

5:22

as I mentioned, I had some drinks and I was, you

5:25

know, oh my god, I have to go talk to the Mora Marie

5:27

boys as I refer to you. Well,

5:29

we're glad you did. You

5:31

came well-researched about

5:34

the unsolved murder of Judith Petty

5:36

and that's what we're gonna talk about here today.

5:38

What got you interested in Judith's

5:41

case? Me and my

5:42

team were from the American Military

5:45

University and it's a cold case investigative

5:47

team and it's led by Jen

5:50

who is, has a background in military

5:52

and interrogation and so we developed

5:55

a cold case team and we started looking at

5:57

cases that were submitted to us. case

6:00

was submitted to us and there was something

6:02

about Judy's that really stood out to me that I

6:04

was like, this is the one that I want to take. Given

6:06

her age, victimology is really low

6:09

for Judy and yet she was found on her

6:11

family's farm 13 miles away.

6:13

So there was just something about this case and

6:15

then we met the family of course and fell in love

6:18

with them. So that was a big

6:20

reason for us taking on Judy's

6:22

case. And tell us a little bit about yourself

6:24

and your background and what is

6:26

it about you that makes you

6:28

so well equipped to handle a story like

6:30

this? Because you certainly are. Tim said you

6:32

came well researched and it's some of the best

6:35

research that we've received through a chance

6:37

encounter at CrimeCon. Well, thank you. I'm

6:39

not quite sure. My

6:40

background is actually I'm a hospice social

6:43

worker. My title is a licensed

6:45

clinical social worker. So I'll CSW,

6:47

but I've worked in hospice 20 years, but

6:50

I've worked with domestic violence victims, things like

6:52

that. But I've always had a passion for solving

6:55

cool cases. When I was in college back in

6:57

the day, as I say, they didn't have a lot of options if

6:59

you didn't want to be a cop. I've always wanted to be

7:01

a homicide detective. Clue is my

7:03

jam. You know, I'm always Miss Scarlett, but you

7:05

know, they didn't give you a lot of options back then

7:07

of like, Hey, if you don't want to be a cop, here's these

7:10

other avenues that they have today.

7:12

So I've always been interested in following

7:14

along. And when I got this opportunity, I was

7:17

like, Oh my God, it's my dream. How did this group

7:19

form? And do you have several cases

7:21

with this group? The first

7:22

case I worked with them on was at a

7:24

Lubbock, Texas in 1975. They had presented at

7:28

crime con a couple of years ago, author

7:30

George Jared is also part of this

7:32

group. So I had joined because we

7:35

do crowdsourcing. So

7:37

I joined and I was like, you know, doing all

7:39

this research on my end and sending it to

7:41

them. And then I said, Hey, if you're ever going to Lubbock, I'll

7:44

go to and they're like, well, we don't pay

7:46

for you. I was like, that's fine. I'll pay myself. So

7:48

then that's how I kind of got involved. And then

7:50

from that point, Jen and George

7:52

are like, Hey, we want to tackle two cases.

7:55

If you want to lead one, we'll do another

7:57

one. So I don't know if you're familiar with

8:00

George Jared and Jen Volkholz,

8:02

but they were the ones on the Rebecca Gould

8:04

case. So they had crowd sourced and

8:06

lured the killer onto

8:09

the Facebook. So Rebecca Gould out

8:11

of Arkansas, the killer got onto

8:13

the Facebook and was communicating directly with

8:16

Jen and Jen has paid visits to him

8:18

in prison. So he's the only one who has allowed

8:20

Jen to come in and talk to him. William

8:22

Miller. Yeah. So it was really interesting.

8:24

So they're working another case right now out of Port

8:27

Orchard, Linda Malcolm. And so they're

8:29

taking that one and I've taken Judy Penny. They've

8:31

written a few books too.

8:32

You had said that there was something

8:34

about Judith that stood out

8:36

to you and you mentioned her age. Do

8:39

you want to get into the circumstances

8:41

of the crime now or is there

8:43

more background that you think is relevant beforehand?

8:45

No, I think we can get into her case because

8:48

on the top of it, you look at it and it doesn't

8:50

seem that not interesting,

8:52

but you're kind of like, what are you going to do with this? Right. But the

8:55

more you dug in and the more that we've

8:57

gained in over a year, it's kind

8:59

of how many turns can this case take?

9:01

And there's so many things that went wrong in

9:03

the investigation back in 2008, just

9:05

to kind of give the overview. So Judith

9:08

Petty was 48 years old. She

9:10

lived with her grandmother in Parkersburg,

9:13

West Virginia. She was the full-time caregiver

9:15

of her grandmother who had some dementia Alzheimer's

9:18

at that time. I mean, Judy was never married.

9:20

She had no kids. She never dated.

9:22

She didn't go to the bar. When you look at victimology,

9:24

she doesn't have a lot of marks

9:27

on the victimology.

9:28

So just to interject really quickly, you

9:30

said that she was 48 years old and lived

9:33

a mostly simple life. You said

9:35

she didn't drink. She wasn't somebody who would go out and party.

9:38

She didn't have any kids, right? Correct. When

9:40

you're looking at people who become

9:42

victims as she did, they typically

9:45

put themselves out there a little bit more. Is that statistically

9:47

what we're talking about is people who are

9:50

more social and they've interacted

9:52

with more people. They just have a statistically,

9:54

I guess, worst chance of encountering

9:57

somebody. Yeah. If you're married,

9:58

right. Then you have a next. husband or

10:00

a husband, you have kids, then

10:02

you have friends of kids, the

10:04

circle widens. And in Judy's case,

10:07

the circle is only her family. She

10:09

wasn't working outside the house. She wasn't

10:12

involved in social things.

10:15

She's truly just a family person. There

10:17

wasn't anything else we could explore, like was

10:19

it a job related? Did she have an affair

10:21

with somebody? I mean, there really wasn't anything

10:24

to show that

10:25

the likelihood of her getting murdered by somebody

10:28

she knew or related in that way was

10:30

very low. And what happened was one

10:32

day on February 6, 2008, she

10:34

told her sister and nephew

10:37

that she was going to go return some books at the library.

10:39

Judy walked everywhere. She was diabetic.

10:42

She was overweight. And so her

10:44

doctor said, yeah, you should be out walking more. So

10:46

she walked everywhere. So she walked to the

10:48

library and returned books,

10:50

and they never saw her again. They were driving

10:52

all around at night trying to find her

10:55

where she at, where she had, she never came back.

10:57

They grew up on a family farm 13 miles away.

11:00

Finally, you know, the dad was driving,

11:02

you know, back and forth from the farm like

11:04

she wouldn't be out here walking. It was February.

11:07

It was nice out that day. But

11:09

as it got darker, it gets darker earlier,

11:11

right in February. Like she was in hiking

11:14

boots, like she wasn't dressed

11:16

to be walking out to the farm. So

11:18

the next day, her dad went back out to the family

11:21

farm and the whole farm was in fire

11:23

in Goughton flames,

11:24

the whole house, the cellar, his whole

11:26

property, their driveway is a third a mile

11:29

up from the road on a mountain. So you can't

11:31

even see just driving past

11:34

if anything was going on up there until he got

11:36

halfway up and he saw

11:37

everything on fire. Where was Judy

11:39

at that point? So

11:40

they still couldn't find Judy. So the dad

11:42

shows up and the house is on fire. He

11:44

runs down the hill because there's zero

11:46

cell reception up there. He runs

11:48

down the hill to the neighbors to use their

11:50

land phones. By the time the police

11:53

got there, the fire trucks, it was so muddy.

11:55

They had snowed and rained the night before

11:58

the trucks could not make it up that drive.

11:59

They had to use

12:01

brush trucks.

12:02

Well, the brush trucks wouldn't put out this mass of

12:04

fire that was in the cellar and

12:06

the house. So they let it burn

12:08

out. And the dad is saying to everybody,

12:11

listen,

12:12

my daughter is still missing my house's

12:14

properties on fire. Like there has

12:17

to be a relation here. Like what's

12:19

going on? Like we still can't find my daughter.

12:21

It wasn't until three days later once

12:23

they let the fire burn itself out, the

12:25

cadaver dogs were brought in, they were circling

12:28

the cellar, kind of hitting on the cellar.

12:30

And that's when Judy's jawbone

12:33

and some bones were recovered. Judy was

12:36

cremated, if you will, in the cellar.

12:39

Everything had fallen on top of her. And

12:41

because they had allowed it to burn itself

12:44

out, when you picked up her bones, they went

12:46

to dust. The only thing that survived

12:48

was her jawbone, and that's how they identified

12:50

her and her liver, thankfully.

12:53

So we know that she was dead prior to

12:55

the fire because her liver had no

12:57

gases to show that she was inhaling

13:00

anything. And it also showed that there was no like

13:02

drugs or alcohol in her liver.

13:04

So thankfully her liver survived.

13:06

It was like a softball size. But that's how

13:09

we know that she was dead

13:10

prior to the fire. When you said that they

13:12

allowed the fire to burn out, did they not

13:15

call the fire department? Or that was

13:17

what the fire department had recommended, just

13:19

to allow it to burn out? Yeah, so the fire department

13:21

was there. Everyone was trampling around everything

13:23

because they still didn't know where Judy was. So

13:26

they were treating it as like an arson case.

13:28

But the data saying, but my daughter's missing,

13:31

and now this is on fire. But the

13:33

problem was the big fire trucks

13:35

couldn't get up that driveway to put out the fire.

13:38

So they would fill these little brush

13:40

trucks and try to take that up there. But

13:43

it wasn't enough to extinguish it all

13:45

right on that day. So they're like, we're

13:48

just going to allow it to burn itself out.

13:50

Because by the time the dad got there, I should clarify,

13:53

everything was already on the ground. The house

13:55

was on the ground. The structure there was,

13:57

you know, two feet of flames like it was.

13:59

up in flames it had already collapsed

14:02

everything.

14:03

So were you able to

14:05

learn the cause of Judy's death?

14:07

It's undetermined. The ME did say

14:10

to investigate it as suspicious

14:12

due to deliver not having any

14:15

gases in the condition of her bones and being

14:17

found in the cellar. So where Judy was found,

14:19

so there's the house structure, and

14:21

back then they had a separate cellar. Kind

14:24

of like Wizard of Oz where you go hide

14:26

in the cellar and you have those doors. There

14:28

were stairs going down and they just kept canned

14:30

foods down there. Mr. Petty

14:32

kept a lot of the farm tools

14:34

there and Judy hated the cellar

14:37

and that's something so important in this case. She

14:40

hated and was afraid of the cellar because of

14:42

snakes growing up. She never went down there.

14:44

It was creepy. That is where she was found.

14:46

The doors to open up the cellar weren't

14:49

there. So we believe that

14:51

she was dragged backwards down the stairs

14:53

because she was like 250 pounds. So

14:56

use gravity and you pull her down the stairs

14:58

and she was just laid right there like

15:00

right at the bottom of the stairs and turned like someone

15:02

dragged her down enough to get her in, turned

15:05

and then our fire experts that we have on

15:08

our team reviewed all the photos, everything

15:10

and believed that I was poured

15:12

on Judy and then up the stairs. So we believe

15:14

the fire started in the cellar

15:17

to get rid of her body and the evidence

15:19

and then it caught the house on fire. Alan

15:21

Haskins, he's part of our team now and he

15:23

teaches a fire class. He's a fire

15:26

expert, I call him. But he looked at everything,

15:28

looked at the photos and he can see the

15:30

spalding and the cement and the accelerant

15:33

and you can see where her body is positioned

15:36

and that that's where the hottest fire was,

15:38

was right where her body was. Now, there was

15:41

a lot of stuff in the back of the cellar.

15:43

So I don't think they could get her in that far.

15:45

So they just brought her in enough just to

15:47

lay her there. And then the winds that night

15:51

were blowing towards the house. So

15:53

you set the cellar on fire, the wind direction

15:55

and the speed of the wind, it was all

15:57

going towards

15:58

the house. Were there

15:59

arson investigators from the

16:02

police from the official investigation

16:05

who looked at this as well.

16:05

They did unfortunately what happened

16:08

is

16:09

Everything was all trampled on right

16:12

because they didn't find her for three days So

16:14

they didn't protect the crime scene. They didn't treat

16:16

the fire as Related to Judy

16:19

at the time. So nothing was roped off Nothing

16:21

was changed the fire investigator

16:24

only collected the part around Judy

16:26

and that was it and we're saying Why wouldn't you clear the

16:28

whole seller out? Because who knows

16:30

what's behind her and so when

16:32

we've gone back into the cellar because the family

16:35

has preserved everything So we've been back

16:37

three times and down in that cellar I

16:39

brought Alan with us to start

16:41

going through the cellar But yeah They

16:44

only got the the remains

16:46

and stuff that was circled around Judy and they didn't

16:48

go all the way back further Which there

16:51

could have been a bullet casing, right? There could have been some

16:53

things back there

16:54

If you don't mind take us to the

16:56

day where she leaves and she's going to return

16:59

the library books I don't mean

17:01

this to sound like a joke, but did

17:03

she end up returning the library books?

17:05

Yes, they were returned but we don't

17:07

know going back to

17:09

all the records. There wasn't a great note

17:12

Taken as to was

17:14

it did anyone see her in the library drop them off?

17:16

Did she do it in the drop-off box or?

17:20

Heck in the beginning we're like, how do we know it was her

17:22

that returned it? You know when we're looking

17:24

at the family or looking at everyone and we're like,

17:27

how do you know that it was actually Judy? Right,

17:29

but back in 2008 they didn't have cameras

17:32

outside the library There was no way of knowing

17:34

who returned those books unless they had asked those

17:36

questions

17:36

back in 2008 And has you and your

17:39

team interviewed several people in this case?

17:41

I know you mentioned Judy's family Yeah,

17:43

so we started with the family

17:45

as we talked about to go back

17:48

and we brought them all in and I've been working with the

17:50

prosecuting attorney Detective

17:52

assigned to the case and so we brought

17:54

each individual family member in and re-interview

17:57

them start from ground zero We interviewed mr.

17:59

Petty hard, right? Because everyone's like, he

18:01

found her, you went out there. So we

18:03

interviewed the sisters, the nephews,

18:06

everybody, everyone answered,

18:08

there was no red flags, there was nothing to

18:11

further investigate them. So

18:12

there was an individual who picked

18:15

Judy up. And this is where

18:17

things can get a little bit even more complicated.

18:19

An individual picked Judy up his

18:22

timeline changes quite a bit. But

18:25

he says he picked her up around 1030

18:29

11 o'clock. And he only drove her

18:32

maybe point five miles and dropped

18:34

off at the farm. He's been the main person

18:36

of interest for 16 years. He's the last

18:39

person to see her. He picked her up. He said

18:41

he dropped her off at the farm. And one of the hardest

18:43

things for us to get past is Judy was

18:45

very shy, very naive. Other

18:48

people had seen her walking during

18:50

that night and had offered her a ride and she declined.

18:53

Think she was okay. She was just out walking.

18:56

But

18:56

the problem is how come this guy comes

18:58

along in a truck,

19:00

big guy says,

19:01

Hey, do you need a ride? And Judy says, Okay,

19:04

she's almost there. I mean,

19:06

it was not a far drive. And so we're like,

19:09

how does that make any sense? Right? She's

19:11

almost there. Why would she get in this vehicle with this guy?

19:14

That doesn't seem likely. And we

19:16

interviewed him for over two hours. No

19:18

attorney president, he's taken polygraphs, he's

19:20

passed them. He really says I've been attached

19:23

to this for 16

19:24

years. When I dropped her off, she was fine,

19:26

dead look in the eye, just nothing

19:28

to suggest he wasn't lying. I think his timeline

19:31

is wrong about picking her up because he

19:33

was on pills, he was out at the bar, the bar

19:35

closed early. So I don't think he realized

19:38

what time he actually picked her up. But we

19:40

have tracked her movement

19:41

and her pace.

19:43

And it would have put her out there to pick him

19:45

up. Now why she got in that truck? Is it

19:47

because she noticed that her blood sugar was dropping

19:50

big diabetic, she didn't have insulin,

19:52

she was insulin dependent and pills. Did

19:54

she like realize she needed a break and was like,

19:57

I'm going to take this or did something else frighten

19:59

her? Chris said she acted fine in

20:01

the car. She didn't act drunk like, you know, when

20:03

your sugar drops, you can seem like you're intoxicated.

20:06

She was very quiet. She didn't talk. And

20:09

he said that right when they got up to the farm

20:11

gate, she just said, stop here. And she

20:13

got out, and he drove away. But

20:16

what's crazy is where he was staying at the time

20:18

is the property on the backside

20:20

of the Petty property. It was all like, okay,

20:23

so you dropped her off, and then she ends up dead,

20:25

and you're

20:25

staying at this property. It's

20:28

a big property?

20:29

It's a huge property, and what you can do

20:31

is you can use ATVs, and

20:33

there's trails. We actually walked through

20:36

the trail to this property he was staying

20:39

to see how easy it was to get there. It's

20:41

very easy. You can walk it, and you can

20:43

ATV it. So did Judy know him? No. They

20:46

weren't even familiar with each other? No.

20:49

So that's kind of a weird coincidence then, if he stops

20:51

to pick her up, and they happen to live on the same

20:53

property.

20:54

On the backside, yeah. He was staying there with

20:56

a friend, and so we were like, well, why

20:58

would she get in the car with you? She doesn't know you.

21:00

She turned down female people earlier.

21:03

And he's like, I don't know. He's like, I just asked

21:05

because it was a dangerous road. West Virginia,

21:07

the roads are like this. It's

21:09

crazy. It's dangerous.

21:11

I don't know what she was doing. He's like,

21:13

I saw a female out there walking, and I was like, this

21:15

is dangerous, and it's cool though.

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23:03

I'm wondering if like the other people you said

23:05

offered her rides, maybe a few

23:07

offered her a ride and like two or three offered her

23:09

a ride and she said no and this guy came along and she's like

23:11

maybe there's some sign here

23:14

that I should accept a ride.

23:16

Yeah. Maybe something changed. Yeah, it got

23:18

too cold or something. So many people like

23:20

offering her rides at some point she's going to be like maybe

23:23

I should actually. Yeah. Maybe

23:25

someone knows something I don't. Does this person have a

23:27

violent criminal record since Judy

23:29

was murdered?

23:30

So I did talk to some ex-wife

23:32

who said yeah, there was physical violence at times

23:35

between the both of them. He drank a lot.

23:37

He would take pills. There was no arrest records

23:40

for him. There was no domestic violence

23:42

reports. Of course, not every female

23:44

calls it in. So I believe that ex-wife that

23:47

things did happen. So other than that, I couldn't

23:49

find anything else

23:50

even afterwards that he was in

23:52

trouble with anything. You mentioned that you

23:54

were

23:55

able to question him without a lawyer present

23:57

and do you say he passed two polygraphs

23:59

or just

24:00

One of them was he passed

24:03

it, but then they did it again because I guess the

24:05

people back then like it was Not

24:07

the best practice on how they did it So they did

24:09

it again and it was inconclusive

24:12

because the one question he answered about Do

24:15

you know who killed Judy? He answered

24:17

no and

24:19

it flagged it

24:20

But his reasoning for that is because

24:23

he thinks somebody else killed Judy So

24:26

he kind of knows but he doesn't know

24:27

for sure so when you were

24:29

asking him if you can question him Did

24:32

you say listen you can get a lawyer here

24:34

if you want?

24:36

He actually came down to the station

24:38

We actually had him in an interview room So

24:40

it was him and the detective

24:43

and Jen came in because she had done You

24:46

know interrogation in the army and

24:48

so she's very well versed

24:50

in body language and questioning And

24:52

so we had her go in with the

24:55

detective and for over two hours He

24:57

sat there and

24:58

we got out a big map and said show us where

25:00

you picked her up and you know He

25:03

took the sisters out to where he

25:05

said he thought he picked her up at so he's been

25:07

cooperative But then you have to think is he inserting

25:09

himself is he too helpful? There

25:12

wasn't anything after that two-hour interview

25:14

that showed that we could continue on

25:17

this road with him that we had to

25:19

Re-look at it because he's been the top guy for 16 years

25:23

And maybe that's why it wasn't being solved is it

25:25

wasn't him

25:26

I don't know if you mentioned this

25:28

earlier and I forgot to ask but was there anything

25:30

missing from the house that is known? I know

25:33

there was a fire and a lot was

25:35

destroyed, but was anything missing

25:36

not that anyone can tell so what's interesting

25:39

Is that the petty farm? It's a great place

25:41

to hunt So they have a bunch of people that

25:43

would want to hunt on their property and

25:46

they had a lot of things there that The

25:48

neighbor to the right side his

25:50

name is Billy Billy Schrockengoff And

25:53

he is now dead by suicide

25:56

and he lived to the right side of the putty

25:58

they would often come on

25:59

the Petty phone and steal stuff. So

26:02

Billy had an auction house. And so

26:04

Mr. Petty knows that they were coming on his

26:06

property and stealing stuff

26:07

and then selling it at the auction house. And

26:10

Mr. Petty has found some of his stuff on

26:12

Billy's property. Things were coming

26:14

were being stolen until after Judy died.

26:16

What kind of things were being stolen?

26:19

So a lot of Mr. Petty's tools,

26:21

a lot of metal, a lot of things that

26:23

you could,

26:24

you know, pawn and get money for or

26:26

for to make meth, you know, which is

26:29

where we're at today is that this is

26:31

related to things being stolen off

26:33

their property having to do with Billy

26:35

being involved. When you had

26:37

said that you were questioning people, I think

26:40

I heard you say that you went hard on her

26:42

dad. Yeah. What were those types of questions?

26:45

And when did you decide to take that

26:47

interview to the next level? Well,

26:49

because there's a lot of unknowns with

26:51

what happened. And so we knew

26:54

that we were going to get a lot of questions. And I did, too.

26:56

How did you decide to go out to the farm? What made you decide

26:59

to go out to the farm? Because there's a lot of rumors. You found

27:01

Judy's bones, right? How do you know

27:03

that it was there? Because there was literally,

27:05

you wouldn't know a body was there if you didn't know

27:07

a body was there. We have the photos, you look at

27:10

it, and you can't even tell that

27:12

that's a human remain right there. So it's

27:15

like those kinds of questions that we

27:17

knew we were going to get from the listeners, but also ourselves.

27:20

We had to ensure that something that happened

27:22

within the house at grandma's house, a

27:24

fight, and then she was taken out to the family

27:27

farm and to separate, right? So

27:29

we wanted to start with

27:31

the inner circle, of course, and then go

27:33

through. Now, Mr. Petty is

27:35

the most adorable man I will ever see

27:37

in my life, Mr. and Mrs. Petty. They are

27:39

so adorable, but Judy was a pretty

27:42

large woman, right? And Mr. Petty has always

27:44

been very small and to even move her

27:46

would be a task. But again, burning

27:49

the family farm down would not have been something that

27:51

he would have done. And people are like, well,

27:53

why didn't he call from a cell phone? He didn't have

27:55

a cell phone. He's kind of old school. You

27:57

have no cell up there anyway. People

28:00

were like, well, why did he call his daughter and self calling 911

28:02

first, right? Because

28:04

he called his daughter first to be like, oh my God, our property's

28:07

on fire and ran back up.

28:10

So she called 911. When asked

28:12

that Mr. Pei goes, I don't know, like I was just like,

28:14

oh my God, this can't be happening. Like

28:16

my property's on fire. I called my daughter

28:19

because I don't know what's going on. Right?

28:22

And so we really wanted to

28:23

clear up and ask him the hard

28:26

question before we continued.

28:27

That must have been pretty difficult for you to

28:30

have to ask these questions because after

28:32

seeing his picture and hearing a description of him,

28:34

I mean, you want to be compassionate

28:37

to this man.

28:38

Okay, so here's the truth on this one. I

28:40

didn't interview Mr. Petty for that reason.

28:42

I sat and watched in another room

28:45

because I were

28:47

too involved and

28:50

I didn't want to jeopardize that because

28:52

when he starts crying and he blames himself,

28:55

he drove the main road thinking

28:57

she would have walked that and she took back room. So

29:00

you start talking to him and he starts bawling.

29:02

Did I miss her?

29:04

I didn't see her. Could I have gotten there?

29:06

And so we all agreed as a team,

29:09

I wouldn't be the best person to go in and talk with

29:11

Mr. Petty. I'm just too emotionally

29:13

invested and he may not be honest if I'm in there,

29:16

right? He may say something or

29:18

do something because maybe he doesn't want to disappoint

29:20

me or, you know, the team.

29:23

And so I watched as

29:25

Doug interviewed him. And it's a good thing too

29:27

because I was like bawling and Doug

29:29

came and I was like, why

29:30

are we so mean to Mr. Petty? Well,

29:32

everyone seems pretty satisfied

29:35

with the Petty family and them not

29:37

having involvement.

29:39

Yes, yes. They answered

29:41

all the questions. Everything seemed

29:43

to line up. There wasn't anything further

29:45

that we felt like, and there's some red

29:47

flags here, let's keep going. So

29:49

we then went on to Chris, right? Because

29:51

then we're like, okay, so now let's talk to Chris,

29:53

who's the last guy to

29:54

see her alive,

29:56

really, as far as we know. And he admitted

29:58

that himself, you know, he was at a bar.

29:59

one night and her picture

30:02

came up and he's like, hey, I think that's the chick

30:04

I dropped off. And then someone heard

30:06

him say that and called Mr. Petty. So

30:08

I mean, if you did something to Judy, you're

30:10

not going to be like, hey,

30:12

I picked her up. I mean, no one would have any

30:14

idea until you said something. But

30:16

again, is that someone who has a big ego?

30:18

Yeah, could have been just like a half truth or

30:21

something like that, or could have been just the

30:23

absolute truth. Right. And you mentioned

30:25

Billy. So Billy committed suicide

30:27

in 2015. Was

30:29

he ever confronted about stealing from

30:31

the Petty family?

30:33

No.

30:34

So what we end up finding

30:36

out through our investigation is

30:39

through 15

30:39

years,

30:41

Billy's name and his nephew, Mitchell,

30:43

were never interviewed, never in the case files,

30:46

names never mentioned. And they lived

30:49

next to the Petty farm and there was stuff

30:51

being stolen. Mr. Petty has that in the case

30:53

file. Him saying, Billy

30:56

and the Wright family were stealing off my

30:58

property. But

30:59

there's no follow up with them. There's

31:01

no conversation with them anywhere. So

31:04

what I did is, of course, I'm calling everybody

31:06

up and down, you know, who lived

31:09

up and down the road here from the Pettys. And

31:12

everyone's like, I'm surprised the cops never came and

31:14

talked to me. And so I did finally

31:16

and talking to different people because Billy has always

31:18

been the name that when you talk to community

31:21

people, everyone thinks Billy killed her. It's

31:23

like that town rumor, or maybe

31:25

it's true. Billy, Billy, Billy,

31:27

Billy, Billy did have mental health issues.

31:30

He was a drinker. You know, he would sit at

31:32

the bar and talk to himself. People describe

31:34

him as creepy and they would stay away from him.

31:37

He had really bad hygiene. Like he was just one of

31:39

those people that people didn't have to associate with. They

31:41

didn't have to. So everyone would say Billy, Billy,

31:43

and we're like, this guy's being a scapegoat because,

31:46

right, because of all these things. It turns out

31:48

that when we look at everything and

31:50

I talked to an ex-girlfriend of Billy's

31:52

back then,

31:53

he has a very physical background. He

31:55

has a hot temper. He always carried

31:58

a gun on him 24 seven.

31:59

I spoke to somebody who said, well, Billy

32:02

told somebody that Mitchell, his nephew

32:04

killed Judy and

32:06

that they burned her up in the cellar. For 16

32:08

years, nobody has ever mentioned Mitchell's

32:11

name or Billy saying he knows

32:13

who did it. So that was a big

32:16

breakthrough for this case

32:17

since nobody has ever heard those two names.

32:20

For Billy, I don't think Billy would call somebody

32:22

up and say, hey, this person killed Judy

32:24

for shits and giggles. I mean, it's not something you

32:26

just say. And he had details

32:28

about what happened. This person asked Billy,

32:30

were you there? Were you part of it? He

32:33

didn't deny it. It's like this crazy like,

32:35

mom and dad, Chris, and then you've got

32:37

Billy and then you got the nephew and it's like...

32:40

And so Billy and his nephew, they

32:42

lived on the property. Billy

32:45

was seen around town talking to himself.

32:48

Do you know if he was hearing

32:50

voices back? Yeah, people would

32:52

say like he would have full blown conversations

32:54

to himself out loud. But then people also

32:56

describe him as very smart. Hard

32:58

enough to get away with something. Someone

33:01

told me that they told somebody at the bar, don't

33:03

fuck with Billy. He's very smart and

33:05

he could get away with murder. And I'm like,

33:07

that's very interesting.

33:09

So people would say you would have conversations

33:11

with Billy. He'd be off in his own world. But if

33:13

you said, hey, Billy, he

33:15

could

33:16

snap out of it and have a conversation

33:18

with you. And I just got confirmation the other

33:20

night, he would use the trail. So

33:23

there's a trail from Billy's house to the

33:25

Petty property. Back then they could use ATVs,

33:27

they could use tractors. Billy and his family

33:30

would go up and steal from the Petty property and

33:32

then take it back.

33:33

And Billy had told this person that

33:36

the reason Judy was killed was because she

33:38

knew too much. And I'm like, what the hell would Judy

33:40

know? But I do believe she showed up

33:42

and surprised them.

33:44

They're either stealing stuff from their property.

33:46

The other thing to know is that Billy had a huge crush

33:48

on Judy. Huge crush on Judy.

33:51

So she shows up. I mean, it's a crime

33:53

of opportunity. I'm not quite sure. So

33:55

it's just interesting how she

33:58

was burned in the place she hated.

34:00

And she just happened to show up on her family property

34:02

and

34:03

this happened. The question

34:06

that you said Chris was inconclusive

34:08

is whether or not he knows who

34:11

killed Judy and he said no. Had

34:13

he ever mentioned Billy or Mitchell in

34:15

any circles before?

34:16

Yes, Billy. So Billy would always

34:18

be at this bar,

34:20

the same bar that Chris was at. But Billy always

34:22

sat by himself. No one really talked to

34:24

Billy. But I just looked it up. I forgot.

34:27

From Billy's house to the petty property

34:29

at 64 yards.

34:31

I know Mitchell was Billy's nephew.

34:33

He's also not with us anymore. What's the age

34:35

difference there? I guess how old was he at the time

34:37

of Judy's death? He

34:39

would have been I think in his 20s. He

34:41

died from a drug overdose

34:44

from heroin. And what we know about Mitchell

34:46

is that

34:47

he was always going on people's

34:50

property. He was known as the town thief. So

34:52

Mitchell would scope out places during the day,

34:54

go at night, write his ATV. He

34:57

would steal things to then sell for

34:59

his pill addiction. He then got into meth

35:01

and would make meth out in the woods, the shake and bake

35:03

method as I'm learning.

35:05

So the best place you could do that is a property

35:08

like the Putty's,

35:08

right?

35:10

It's 65 yards from your uncle's property.

35:12

You've been up there. You have a seller from the

35:14

elements, right? You can go down the steps and

35:16

you have protection. But

35:19

also I'm learning is it metallic

35:21

that you would pawn off to then

35:24

make meth? So it's just interesting

35:26

because then you have Billy took

35:28

his life. When I looked at it, it shocked

35:31

me. He died January 24th

35:33

of 2015,

35:34

which is coming up to Judy's

35:37

anniversary of her death, which is February 8th.

35:40

And when I took a look at that, I thought, well,

35:42

that's interesting because

35:44

every year Parkersburg does big

35:46

news, the family, they put

35:49

it back out. But we believe,

35:51

I believe that Billy Mitchell

35:54

and

35:55

Billy's sister, Kim Wright, who's

35:57

alive, is all involved. Kim won't

35:59

talk to us.

36:00

She refuses to talk.

36:01

She slams the door. She won't answer questions.

36:04

She says we're trying to kill her. So

36:06

she's not willing to try to help clear

36:08

her brother or her son. And you have

36:10

to wonder why when everyone else is talking. I

36:13

just found out too, she would also be up on the

36:15

Petty Firm ceiling. So

36:16

I'm like, oh my god, how many people,

36:18

and I think that's why it hasn't been solved

36:21

or people talking, is because it's this

36:23

little, this family. Everybody that

36:26

I've talked to

36:28

doesn't have nice things to say about this family. And

36:30

so I think that's why it's been able

36:32

to been kept so small.

36:34

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After 12 years of searching

38:14

for the Long Island serial killer, a

38:16

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38:18

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38:20

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38:22

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38:49

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38:51

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38:53

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38:56

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38:58

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39:01

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39:03

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39:05

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39:24

Man, I feel terrible for the Petty family. I

39:26

mean, everyone's stealing from them, and then this happens.

39:28

And what kind of community are you

39:30

trying to be a part of? How did they even

39:32

manage to remain there?

39:34

The rest of the community has been great. And what

39:36

has happened since our investigation is everybody

39:39

wanting justice for the Pettys.

39:41

And, you know,

39:41

really coming together, we had a hell

39:43

of a benefit there in Parkersburg last

39:46

February for the anniversary. People donated

39:48

items. We raised money to increase the reward

39:50

fund. You know, I'm getting more leads this

39:53

week in regards to Kim's involvement.

39:55

And everyone's just saying, you know, Kim's not gonna talk. Kim's

39:57

not gonna talk. And she hasn't been, but what's it's been.

40:00

interesting too is that we have strong

40:03

reason to believe and a lawyer did confirm

40:05

this that Kim wrote Billy's suicide

40:08

note leaving the property to herself.

40:09

Now how did a lawyer confirm

40:12

that?

40:12

So we've talked to somebody who said that

40:14

they compared Billy's handwriting to Kim's

40:17

in regards to the

40:19

will testament that was written. It was

40:22

one of the other siblings who was left out of

40:24

this. He didn't want to press charges or

40:26

go after them because they didn't have anything. He just

40:28

wanted his entitlement. Billy had a lot of money. He

40:30

had a lot of money coming from mineral rights that

40:33

was in the mail when he killed himself. The check

40:35

that hadn't been received yet.

40:36

What is that? It's like the property the oil

40:38

on

40:39

the oil rig up there so

40:41

they have oil and so Billy would get thousands

40:43

of dollars for the

40:45

mineral rights. Was the check

40:47

cashed? I don't know if it was cashed.

40:49

I know that Kim managed

40:51

all the financials. It's a weird thing if

40:53

you ever get a chance to look on our Facebook. We

40:55

posted the side by side of Billy's actual

40:58

signature that was on court documents and the

41:00

Kim signature and you can tell that it's

41:02

not

41:02

the same handwriting. Apologies if I

41:04

missed it during this conversation but how did

41:06

Billy kill himself? A shotgun.

41:09

His house

41:10

and the auction house that's his

41:12

property that now Kim owns.

41:15

He drove from his driveway, went around,

41:17

went to the auction house, got out and then

41:19

shot himself. Had he ever expressed the

41:22

desire to commit suicide in the past?

41:24

Nobody has said that. We've had a lot of people

41:27

really struggling the fact that

41:29

he did that. A lot of people were like no way. You

41:32

know there's no way he would do that. He had

41:34

this money coming. There was no reason

41:36

for him to do this

41:37

and then we have other people saying well he was very

41:40

afraid of Mitchell because Mitchell was always coming

41:42

around for money at that time

41:45

wanting money for drugs. Now I

41:47

have to wonder is there not this correlation

41:50

of knowing what happened to Judy, pressure

41:52

to keep quiet, the weight of it all.

41:55

Was there blackmail going on? And that's what

41:57

I mean. There's so much to this. It's hard

41:59

not to.

41:59

to try to get lost

42:01

in the weeds. So I might have gone too far

42:03

down in the weeds with

42:05

throwing everybody in here, but it's a

42:07

crazy dynamic. So what are

42:09

your thoughts on this being

42:11

one person who may have done this

42:13

or more than one? I think there

42:15

was definitely more than one. I think that

42:17

Billy himself, according to our source,

42:20

didn't deny being there, didn't deny being

42:22

involved. And based on what Billy himself

42:24

had said, I believe that it very much

42:26

could have been Billy and Mitchell up there

42:28

stealing

42:29

something happened. And then,

42:32

you know, they called Kim who then helped clean it

42:34

up. So Kim is like the mother hen. So

42:36

everything funneled through Kim, all

42:39

decisions, the money. They

42:41

were into selling pills

42:44

illegally through the auction house. They

42:46

also went through, they had marijuana

42:49

plants growing on the line

42:51

of the petty firm. So you could say, oh, it's not mine,

42:53

it's theirs kind of thing. So there is

42:55

a lot of things that were going on back

42:57

then. So I think there's more than one, for

43:00

sure. And either, you know, Mitchell

43:02

did kill Judy and Billy was

43:04

there or knows about it.

43:06

Either way, Kim knows what happened.

43:08

Either it was Billy or it was Mitchell. You know, I'm

43:10

tending to go towards more towards Billy

43:12

given he had the crush on Judy. I've

43:15

heard from another source that they

43:17

heard that he raped her and then killed her. I guess

43:19

I can't confirm any of that. But

43:22

the more people that are kind of saying the same thing,

43:24

there has to be some truth in that

43:27

as we continue to build a case for the prosecuting

43:29

attorney. These things that you've heard people

43:31

say are those things that are submitted directly

43:34

to law enforcement as tips.

43:36

Yeah, so I'm working again with the

43:38

detective for the press King attorney. His name is

43:40

Doug, and I give him everything

43:42

that I have. He has sat

43:45

in on interviews with phone calls

43:47

that I've had. He's spoken to people that I've spoken

43:50

to. And so right now I'm looking

43:52

at putting it all together. My understanding

43:55

is that because both

43:57

Billy and Mitchell have died, that

43:59

What we need to do is build a case, a

44:02

circumstantial case, which I have a ton of circumstantial

44:04

evidence that puts them up there, puts

44:07

the violent history, all of that there. Enough

44:09

for the sheriff to say it's reasonable

44:12

to believe that

44:12

this person was involved and can close it that

44:15

way. And at the beginning of this conversation,

44:17

I had said homicide, but that's just my own personal opinion.

44:19

I just want to be clear about that. I said homicide just

44:22

based on like reading what you've come up with in the

44:24

research and everything, but what is it actually

44:26

classified as officially? Undetermined.

44:28

I'm calling it a homicide. Because

44:30

we want to treat it as a homicide until proven

44:32

otherwise. The saving grace was her liver.

44:35

The killer literally got that lucky. It's

44:37

almost the perfect storm, right? Everything

44:39

collapsed on her. It was an oven, basically

44:42

a tin roof. Nobody knew she was underneath

44:44

it. The one thing that helped was she was curled

44:47

sideways. And I think that's what protected

44:49

her liver. I mean, if they would have put that fire out

44:51

when they saw it, we would have

44:53

had more of her. Her steel toe

44:56

boot was recovered. So that

44:58

was in there from the hiking boots. I guess they're very uncomfortable.

45:01

I've never worn them, but most people say you

45:03

don't want to walk 13 miles in those boots.

45:05

Now, I'm not sure of Judy's personality,

45:07

but do you think she would have confronted

45:10

somebody if she saw them stealing

45:13

from her property or from that property?

45:15

I don't think she would have confronted them. I think

45:17

she would have asked like, what's going on? What

45:19

are you doing here? Very nice, very,

45:22

she was always nice to Billy, not

45:24

because she's rude, but she's just a nice person

45:26

like her parents. You know, that's where I'm wondering when

45:28

Billy's like, oh, she knew too much. So they, you

45:30

know, got rid of her. They burned her up in that corn

45:33

crib. I think that either

45:35

there was doing drugs or doing something, stealing

45:37

something that they knew that she would tell

45:40

her parents. But I'm thinking, what's worse than

45:42

homicide and

45:44

burning? I mean, I don't know the real motive

45:46

behind that.

45:48

Well, it really is such a tragic story,

45:50

because it seems like this person who

45:52

wasn't out to harm anybody, it didn't have

45:55

a bone to pick with anybody and no one

45:57

seemed to have any issue with

45:59

her. seems to be in the wrong place at the wrong

46:01

time. And you're right, I mean, this could

46:04

have been the perfect crime had it not

46:06

been for the discovery of the liver. What is it going

46:08

to take though? What is it going to take for somebody

46:10

to say something about this? Because if it's been

46:12

this long, they're thinking that they've basically

46:15

gotten away with

46:15

it. And that's the thing I've been fighting against too.

46:18

My partner, Justin Rimmel, he does the

46:20

podcast editing of this all. So Justin

46:23

and I are the leaders on

46:25

this. And so

46:27

we've talked about this quite a bit.

46:29

And I think it's ultimately

46:31

going to be the pressure on Kim to

46:33

talk. So Kim's not

46:35

willing to talk and everyone's been so afraid of this

46:37

family, everyone I've talked to,

46:39

they don't want to talk about this family. They

46:41

all think this family's

46:42

into

46:43

a lot of stuff. It's always been hush,

46:45

hush. I have a lot of people who want

46:47

to remain anonymous while talking

46:50

to me. And I think back in

46:52

the day in 2008, I think they

46:54

had a lot of pull. Today, people aren't

46:56

as afraid to talk. So I'm getting a lot more

46:58

information and hopefully Kim

47:02

will show up. Because the other thing I said to

47:04

somebody too, is they're like, you're just trying to put

47:06

it on Billy and Mitchell. They're dead, they can't defend

47:08

themselves. You're looking for a scapegoat, right?

47:11

You get all of that noise and it's coming from

47:13

that family. Well,

47:15

they were okay with Chris Cutwright being the scapegoat

47:17

for 15 years. No one said anything

47:19

about that, but it's their job

47:22

to help defend

47:24

and speak for

47:25

their family member. It's up

47:27

to Kim. I mean, we were just going to ask her basic

47:29

questions such as, Hey, did Billy ever

47:31

tell you anything? Did Billy ever

47:34

mentioned that he heard something that he saw

47:37

something he would walk around at night?

47:39

Do you know? And she would even get on the phone

47:41

and answer those questions. I mean, she doesn't

47:43

even know what we were going to ask her. It's just interesting

47:46

that now it's kind of like, well, it's

47:48

really up to you to defend your family member.

47:50

You don't really think that she cares, right? To

47:52

do it? No,

47:53

no, because I think she knows. I think she has

47:55

some culpability in it, if you will, because

47:58

there's no everyone who I've

47:59

talked to said if Billy did do

48:02

this or Mitchell,

48:03

their first phone call would have been to Kim

48:06

and Kim would have come up with the plan or

48:08

helped.

48:09

So I guarantee you she knows what's going

48:11

on because she's gotten so defensive. She

48:14

refuses to talk. She tells other

48:16

people not to talk to us. She says we're trying

48:18

to kill her and I'm like by doing

48:20

what? Like asking questions and trying to solve

48:23

a murder? How

48:24

are we trying to kill you Kim? Like is

48:26

this much stress because we're looking at Judy's murder?

48:28

If

48:29

you have nothing to do with this and your family had nothing

48:31

to do this,

48:32

why is it stressing you out so much?

48:34

It's a great question. I'd like to think that

48:36

she'd be listening to this program. I

48:39

hope so but

48:41

we'll put this on our podcast of course

48:44

and so everyone can come over and listen and

48:46

we have a huge support

48:48

system in our Facebook group and our page and

48:50

people get excited about our episodes

48:52

and so they will listen to this and I guarantee you

48:55

they will listen. They've been following along. They've

48:58

been listening to our podcast. They have

49:00

people in our Facebook group monitoring

49:02

what we're saying and doing. So Kim,

49:04

call me. Well big thanks

49:06

to you Melissa for coming on and

49:08

helping us learn about Judy's story

49:10

and shout out Justin too because we

49:12

know him and we even did a panel with him

49:15

years ago at a crime con. Thank you very

49:17

much Melissa and where can people find more

49:19

about this case?

49:20

So we have our podcast it's

49:23

called Safe Haven the Unsolved Murder

49:25

of Judith Petty and also our Facebook

49:27

group is the same name. You can find

49:29

us at Safe Haven the Unsolved Murder of Judith

49:31

Petty and it's crowdsourcing. So what that

49:33

means is people come on, send us information,

49:36

tips, ideas, have you tried this, have you looked

49:38

at this? The more people that lay eyes

49:40

on this case might see things we didn't

49:42

see or ask questions that we

49:45

didn't think of. So it's a really great

49:47

way to get people involved in

49:49

true crime who want to help but

49:50

like myself right they're not cops so

49:53

a lot of people in Parkersburg

49:55

are helping.

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you for listening.