0:00

Music Welcome

0:28

to Crawl Space. I'm Tim here today

0:30

with Lance. Lance, how are you today?

0:32

I'm doing fantastic today, Tim. You know

0:34

why I'm doing fantastic because you're part

0:36

of this conversation that's coming up with

0:39

a friend of ours, someone that we

0:41

are honored to have in our lives

0:43

both personally and professionally because that tends

0:45

to sort of merge in with one

0:47

another from time to time. And he's

0:49

a repeat guest here and he's got

0:51

a lot of good information. But Tim,

0:54

you have some good information. Some of that

0:56

is how you are doing today. How are

0:58

you, sir? I'm doing well. Thank you for

1:01

asking in that way. A

1:03

natural way. Very excited

1:06

to introduce our newest conversation with

1:08

Bill Thomas of Mind Over Murder.

1:10

That's a podcast you can find.

1:12

Go check that one out in

1:14

your favorite pod catcher. He does

1:16

that with his friend, Kristen Dilly.

1:18

They've both been on the show

1:20

several times, but Bill Thomas is

1:22

coming back this time because he

1:24

is the brother of Kathy Thomas,

1:26

who was murdered as a part

1:29

of the Colonial Parkway murders. And

1:31

there was recently some news in

1:33

the Colonial Parkway murders. It's actually

1:35

a lot of news, a lot

1:37

to suss out if you're

1:39

the brother of one of the murder

1:42

victims in this case. And that news

1:44

you speak of is the release of

1:46

a man named Alan Wade Wilmer, he

1:49

was named as the prime suspect

1:51

in connection to the murders of David

1:53

Nobling and Robin Edwards through DNA. And

1:56

you would think That this is...

2:00

Something that is. Universally.

2:02

Good News or Bill and the families

2:04

of these two as well as the

2:06

families of the other Parkway murder victims.

2:09

But as Bill will explain, there's a

2:11

whole lot of politicking and red tape

2:13

paper coverups that happened throughout this investigation.

2:15

So while it is good news, it

2:18

comes with this additional caviar to of

2:20

why did it take this long and

2:22

how did this guy even get on

2:25

the radar and why was he not

2:27

served any form of justice prior to

2:29

this? Yeah, all gray questions and. The

2:31

alley in that way to Wilmer

2:34

Senior died in twenty seven seen

2:36

at the age of sixty three.

2:38

But the F B I is

2:40

asking for your help. If you

2:42

have any information on Allen Wade

2:44

Wilmer Senior, please call one Eight

2:46

Hundred A Call F B I

2:48

or you can submit a tip

2:50

online Tips.f B I.gov or email

2:52

at questions at the S P

2:54

Dot, Virginia Dot G O V

2:57

When this news came out they

2:59

announce that Allah no Way that

3:01

Wilmer Senior. Was also responsible for

3:03

the murder of Teresa Lynn Howell,

3:05

who was a missing person as

3:08

of Nineteen Eighty Nine, and Wilmer

3:10

is also circumstantially connected to Cassandra,

3:12

Haley and Richard Calls disappearances. They

3:15

are more traditionally known as part

3:17

of the Colonial Parkway murders, whereas

3:20

Theresa how old was not That's

3:22

correct. Risa How was a bit

3:24

of an outlier because the Parkway

3:27

murders essentially took place involving couples

3:29

that were murdered in their cars.

3:31

And that was the case with Bill

3:33

sister, Kathy, Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Douse.

3:36

He are a couple that was murdered

3:38

in their car and while they're not

3:40

connected to Allen Wade Wilmer Senior as

3:42

of yet, we do expect some news

3:44

coming down the line at some point

3:46

that he's going to be late, possibly

3:49

to those to buy as Bill believes

3:51

perhaps several more rape and murder victims

3:53

that happened during that time period around

3:55

that area and him as people wanted

3:57

to listen to this episode and Bills

3:59

Beautiful The Boys without being interrupted by

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And. A thank you to our sponsors. Back

6:08

to the program. Welcome back to the podcast

6:10

The Bill Thomas how are you today? I'm

6:13

good. You know it's funny that platform you

6:15

guys used to record this thing makes it

6:17

even more exciting. Tim, you and Lance you

6:19

know say okay we're going to start and

6:22

then it does this. Count down, five, four,

6:24

three, two one was just makes it that

6:26

much more exciting to see you guys. And

6:28

we used to have the countdown starting at

6:30

ninety seconds but out of to the filled

6:33

with. The anxiety

6:35

just took over. We realize. That we

6:37

had to started five. but Bill Thomas is

6:39

joining us again. I don't know how many

6:41

times you've joined us, it's really countless at

6:44

this point. You, as they say, need no

6:46

introduction by just for the sake of formality,

6:48

you want to give a little bit of

6:50

an introduction here. Who's Bill Thomas? Why are

6:53

you in our world? Wonderfully in our world?

6:55

Well yeah, man, I'm excited to be in

6:57

in length and ten world. My name's Bill

6:59

Thomas on the older brother of Kathy Thomas

7:01

who together with her girlfriend Rebecca Douse Key

7:04

or the first two victims and the so

7:06

called. Colonial Parkway Murders and we've

7:08

had really significant an exciting news

7:10

in the Colonial Parkway Murders. It's

7:12

now over the last two weeks

7:15

or so since the F B

7:17

I, the Virginia State Police and

7:19

the Hampton Virginia Police Department held

7:21

a joint press conference on January

7:24

Eight: Two Thousand Twenty Four Can

7:26

you tell us a little bit

7:28

about your sister and dumb? Could.

7:30

You tell us a little bit

7:33

about the other cases that had

7:35

been considered part of the Colonial

7:37

Parkway murders or the case kicks

7:39

off in Nineteen Eighty Six. My

7:41

sister Kathy Thomas who the youngest

7:43

of four kids in my family

7:45

and her girlfriend Rebecca douse key

7:47

or found murdered on the Colonial

7:49

Parkway. This twenty three mile long

7:51

ribbon of land to national Park

7:53

located in Virginia a connects Colonial

7:55

Williamsburg with two other historic sites.

7:57

James. Town and Yorktown a lot

7:59

of. Oh from. That. Part

8:01

of the country know it from

8:03

class trip and that sort of

8:05

thing cause it's this historic district.

8:08

so caffeine back here from murdered

8:10

and fall. Nineteen Eighty Six. Kathy

8:12

was a Naval academy graduate, had

8:14

served on active duty in the

8:16

Navy for five years, and had

8:18

just left the Navy prior to

8:20

her. Murder and

8:22

then her girlfriend Rebecca Dow ski was

8:24

a senior at William and Mary which

8:27

is in Williamsburg. So they're double homicide

8:29

which is an F B I case

8:31

because it happened in a national park

8:33

is followed by a second murderer a

8:36

year later on a very similar circumstances.

8:38

A young couple who met

8:40

that day actually Robin Edwards

8:43

and David Knob Lane or

8:45

murdered about a half an

8:47

hour away at the Ragged

8:49

Island Wildlife Refuge. There's no

8:51

immediate. Connection made between the murders

8:53

but obviously lot for some with her

8:55

concern because double homicide your rare. Both

8:58

of these occurred in like Lubbers Lane

9:00

situations where couples go to make out.

9:02

I'm told by the experts that double

9:05

homicide or rare and lovers lane murders

9:07

are actually quite rare that Nineteen Eighty

9:09

Seven in the fall the following spring.

9:11

Now we're up to April Nineteen Eighty

9:14

Eight A young couple go missing lot

9:16

of first state and their names are.

9:19

Keith. Call and Cassandra Haley Keith

9:21

say at a Celica is found

9:23

abandoned basically on the Colonial Parkway.

9:25

So now we're back onto the

9:27

Colonial Parkway. This is an F

9:29

B I case again and Sandy

9:31

go missing and have never been

9:33

found. So what to been? thirty

9:35

six years free of my math

9:37

they'd never been found so I

9:39

think it's pretty safe to assume

9:41

that kid com Cassandra Helio not

9:43

gonna walk through the door tomorrow

9:45

they are missing and presumed. To.

9:48

Be another double homicide in

9:50

this Colonial Park mercenaries. And

9:52

then finally to people who

9:54

are travelling together they're not

9:56

really a couple. Anna Maria

9:58

Phelps and Daniel Loud. Or

10:00

go missing on Interstate Sixty Four

10:02

heading down to Virginia Beach where

10:05

they had recently moved. When I

10:07

said i'm not a couple the

10:09

really traveling companions and was engaged

10:11

to Daniels brother, they are heading

10:14

down to err on the interstate.

10:16

Interstate Sixty Four. It appears that

10:18

someone stop them or they stopped

10:21

and a rest stop they go

10:23

missing. His car is found. On.

10:25

The opposite side of the road on

10:27

Interstate Sixty Four heading back in their

10:30

direction of travel. Very sadly their bodies

10:32

are not sound for six weeks and

10:34

their found that a have club. Off.

10:37

Interstate Sixty Four. The. Murders

10:39

would have happened on Labor Day weekend

10:41

Nineteen Eighty Nine. and they're not found

10:44

until mid October, Nineteen Eighty Nine. So

10:46

who got the murder of For couples

10:48

approximately one couple year? It's actually a

10:50

three year period, but it's Eighty Six.

10:53

Eighty Seven, Eighty Eight. Eighty Nine Forgive

10:55

me for the long answer. I mean,

10:57

it's kind of difficult to not have

10:59

an answer to that question without it

11:01

being a little bit extended. And I

11:03

think that's really necessary because you're the

11:05

brother of one of the people who

11:07

lost their lives in a series of

11:09

murders. So for you to truncate anything

11:12

and try to condense an explanation I

11:14

think would be impossible and I would

11:16

wonder honestly, like what's wrong with Bill.

11:18

If. He's not giving an authentic most complete answer

11:20

is possible because that's honestly very respectful to

11:22

all of the victims including your sister And

11:24

I want to hear that I know the

11:26

listeners one here that can you remind us

11:28

of when did you decide that this was

11:31

going to be something They became your life

11:33

because you had you know a number of

11:35

other careers Like really sounds like he had

11:37

a like very fun careers in the music

11:39

industry and all of that since you started

11:41

the podcast this has been primarily your life.

11:43

When did that transition happen? You know it's

11:45

funny as you were saying that Lance I

11:47

was thinking about how many hours. You and

11:49

Ten and I and my podcast

11:52

partner Krista Delhi for mind over

11:54

matter how many hours we've spent.

11:56

In reason for worth talking

11:59

about. The. The only A Parkway

12:01

murderers and your views on things. He

12:03

A and I welcome everybody's perspective in

12:05

talking to the two of you. Over

12:08

the years on and off the Air

12:10

has been incredibly helpful. I got more

12:12

heavily involved in the Colonial Parkway murders

12:15

in. Fall. Two thousand Nine

12:17

So this is twenty three years

12:19

after Cathy I'm were murdered. I

12:22

stumbled upon news stories.

12:25

From. Virginia the Cbs affiliate in

12:27

Norfolk, Gabi T. Say are there

12:29

was an investigative reporter Really great

12:32

guy named Mike and he did

12:34

too long stories five minutes or

12:36

longer which is a lot of

12:38

time on local news. He did

12:41

his investigative reports that said that

12:43

the F B I had lost

12:45

control of seventy Eight. Highly graphic.

12:48

and I mean really graphic. Crime.

12:50

Scene photos of my sister Kathy.

12:53

And. The other victims in the colonial

12:56

programmers these have been shot by.

12:58

Virginia. State Police and F

13:00

B I photographers over a

13:02

period of years and a

13:04

non F B I agent photographer

13:07

for the F B I

13:09

had retired. And. He had

13:11

stolen. A copy probably electronic,

13:13

but it could have been on paper

13:15

and stole in a copy of the

13:17

Seventy Eight. Highly graphic crime

13:19

scene photos and he was using

13:21

them without authorization at a training

13:24

academy now defunct called the Mid

13:26

Atlantic Training Academy. We became aware

13:28

of this in Fall two thousand

13:30

and Nine, and that's how I

13:32

initially got involved in Kathy Mbeki

13:34

and all of the victims in

13:36

a more serious way. So that

13:38

origin of my much more direct

13:41

involvement was at the twenty three

13:43

year mark. and now we're at

13:45

the thirty seven year mark self

13:47

about fourteen years ago. Very good

13:49

and you in Kristen Gilley have

13:51

a fantastic podcast called Mind Over

13:53

Murder that we highly recommend Everybody

13:56

check out and you've been doing

13:58

some updates on the color. Parkway

14:00

murders which I've been

14:03

listening to is very informative. Can

14:05

you tell us about the recent

14:07

news developments? Well we got some

14:09

really exciting news in the Colonial

14:11

Parkway murders in that finally a

14:13

suspect has been identified in the

14:15

Colonial Parkway murders. Unfortunately he's deceased

14:17

and no surprise when a

14:20

case drags on for more than three

14:22

decades sometimes your offender or offenders are

14:24

dead. It was announced two weeks ago

14:27

now by FBI Virginia State Police and

14:29

Hampton Virginia Police that they had identified

14:31

a man named Alan Wade

14:34

Wilmer W-I-L-M-E-R

14:38

Sr. We have to be careful because

14:40

there's also a junior who's his son

14:42

who was eight years old at the

14:44

time of the Colonial Parkway murders so

14:46

this doesn't involve the son but the

14:48

man Alan Wade Wilmer Sr. has

14:50

been linked via DNA to

14:53

the murder of Robin Edwards

14:55

and David Nobling at Ragged Island

14:57

so that's incident number two in

14:59

the Colonial Parkway murders as

15:02

well as the murder of a

15:04

lovely young woman named Teresa Howell

15:06

and Teresa was murdered in 1989

15:08

and they believe that she met

15:15

Wilmer at an after-hours club

15:17

in Hampton Virginia called the

15:19

Zodiac Club. These three examples

15:22

these all involve rape and murder. Wilmer

15:24

is attacked by a gang of couples

15:26

as well as single women

15:29

linked by DNA and he officially

15:31

meets the criteria for a serial

15:33

killer if you kill two or

15:35

more people in two separate incidents

15:37

you're considered a serial killer. Now

15:40

Wilmer Sr. is also suspected in

15:42

a number of other rapes and

15:44

murders in Virginia and may extend

15:46

into neighboring states as well.

15:48

We're looking at some cases in North

15:50

Carolina and we're hearing rumors of trips

15:53

that he made to Maryland as well because

15:55

Virginia's you know right there in the middle. This

15:57

guy's a waterman he was 63 Years

15:59

old. That the time of his death he

16:02

died two thousand and seventeen actually died

16:04

was sounds like a horrible death. He

16:06

died at home and his. Home.

16:08

In Lancaster County, Virginia which is a

16:10

couple of hours away from where the

16:12

Colonial Parkway murders took place. Apparently he

16:15

was not found. We're hearing for as

16:17

long as a month is hunting. Dogs

16:19

got at the body and. Apparently

16:21

was a really really ugly see

16:23

Dna was taken at that time

16:25

because when you find someone in

16:27

such an advanced state of decomposition,

16:29

usually the medical examiner will take

16:31

a Dna test because you just

16:33

have to figure out is this

16:35

the person we think. It. Was

16:38

because they've been dead for a long

16:40

time. Conditions are pretty terrible. So.

16:42

A Dna sample was taken

16:44

at that time. Moving forward.

16:46

Now we knew. Several.

16:48

Months ago that this announcement with coming

16:51

I had heard from media sources that

16:53

a significant and else was where did

16:55

he made in the Colonial Parkway Mars

16:57

current. Fortunately when the actual announcement was

17:00

made on January eighth it was made

17:02

in a way that was a very

17:04

very confusing. And. A lot

17:06

of people, people that have been

17:09

following this case for thirty plus

17:11

years and media people, reporters and

17:13

others were like, what the heck

17:15

was that? It's like they deliberately

17:18

made the news. the announcement confusing,

17:20

how so well my from the

17:22

start. We. Had heard in

17:24

October. That this announcer was

17:27

coming in at the time my

17:29

media sources approached me, they were

17:31

able to give me very specific

17:33

information. They knew the names of

17:35

the suspects plural they knew there

17:37

was going to be a Dna

17:39

created link and the house that

17:41

length album weighed Wilmer Senior to

17:43

the murder of Robin Edwards and

17:46

David Nobly and the sexual assault

17:48

of Robin Edwards as well as

17:50

the rape and murder of Theresa

17:52

How. They. Also said been

17:54

match to to of the Colonial

17:56

Parkway murders Now Kristen Gilley, my

17:58

podcast partner and I. Being. The

18:00

eternal optimist that we are. We. Were

18:02

hoping that meant to pairs of

18:05

victims not to individuals are media

18:07

contacts Also told us that this

18:09

did not involve this Dna match,

18:11

did not involve Thomas Endow Ski

18:13

so it did not have all.

18:15

My sister Kathy and her girlfriend

18:17

Becky douse get that clue that

18:19

off the table feel for the

18:21

moment. So we were super excited

18:23

about this now. We did not

18:25

say a word to anyone but

18:27

there was an express concern made

18:29

to me directly or that they

18:31

were concerned about media. Lakes. I

18:33

did not say anything to the F

18:35

B I or the Virginia State Police

18:38

about what we knew. We said nothing.

18:40

The bizarre thing is when the an

18:42

actual announcement has made on January Eighth.

18:44

First of all, they made this significant

18:47

effort to not call the case the

18:49

Colonial Parkway Murders actually I think made

18:51

up another name. Suddenly they're calling. Robin.

18:54

And written David Na Blinks Murder The

18:56

Isle of Wight Murders. Now I've been

18:59

involved in this case for thirty seven

19:01

years. No one has ever called. Robin.

19:04

Edwards and David Now blink murder

19:06

of the Isle of Wight Murders.

19:09

It did happen in Isle of

19:11

Wight County, but most people would

19:13

be the referred to this as

19:15

one of the Colonial Parkway murders

19:18

or the Ragged Island case because

19:20

that's the specific location, right? some

19:22

the get go. The language used

19:24

by Virginia State Police in F

19:27

B I spokespeople was very distancing

19:29

and confusing. Things were left out

19:31

of the press conference despite reporters

19:33

asking specific questions. So for instance,

19:35

one reporter and Fox has been covering

19:38

this case since Nineteen Eighty Six. He.

19:40

Knows this case very very well.

19:42

Any thoughts asked twice Something along

19:44

the lines of may we ask

19:47

when Alan Way to Wilmer Senior

19:49

first came on to your radar

19:51

and they said no twice, just

19:53

flat out refused to answer the

19:56

question, didn't say why they wouldn't

19:58

answer the question, they just turned

20:00

him down flat And then oddly,

20:02

despite the fact of this is

20:05

supposed to be a professionally run

20:07

press conference and I've run press

20:09

conferences, there was no Mike in

20:11

the room so it was very

20:14

hard to hear. What? The

20:16

question or the reporters were asking.

20:18

The people at the front of

20:20

the room didn't do what you

20:22

see a lot at press conferences,

20:24

which is they repeat the question

20:26

because it is often hard to

20:28

hear what the reporters are asking.

20:30

but they didn't do that either.

20:32

And the reason they didn't do

20:34

that is because they were glosses

20:36

over and incredibly important point. This

20:38

same suspect Alan Wade Wilmer Senior

20:40

was also. The. Leading suspect in

20:43

the disappearance of he's call and

20:45

Cassandra Haley and the F B

20:47

I knew produced a police. Didn't

20:49

want to say that they didn't want

20:51

to say it for a highly embarrassing

20:53

reason. Now. I've known about this

20:55

since as far back as Nineteen Eighty Eight

20:58

when it happened. It takes me a minute

21:00

to tell the story, but it's important and

21:02

I hope that's okay with you guys and

21:04

will be right back After heard from our

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24:22

Yeah absolutely. It feels like this person was sort

24:24

of plucked out of the ether when there's no

24:26

indication of what put him on the radar in

24:29

the first place. So yes please take as much

24:31

time as you need in explaining this embarrassing thing

24:33

that they were trying to prevent from going out

24:35

there. Well we need to set the Wayback Machine

24:37

to 1988 and I'll do my

24:40

best to tell you the story. This is a

24:42

story I heard from my father in 1988 and

24:45

he heard it directly from the FBI

24:47

agents who were involved. We heard the

24:50

story again when I met with Irv

24:52

Wells who was the former

24:54

SAC Special Agent in charge of

24:56

the FBI Norfolk office called a

24:59

field office during the time of

25:01

the investigation of my sister's murder

25:03

together with Becky Dowski so 1986

25:05

and he was

25:08

continuing to be in charge of the

25:10

overall investigation in 1988 when Keith Collin

25:14

Cassandra Haley disappeared. Those are the

25:16

two FBI cases. So in April

25:18

1988 when Keith

25:21

Collin Cassandra Haley went missing, Keith's

25:23

car was found on the Colonial

25:25

Parkway as we talked about. His

25:27

Toyota Celica is abandoned on the

25:29

Colonial Parkway and it's only about

25:31

a mile or a

25:34

mile and a half, very similar

25:36

location along the Colonial Parkway next

25:38

to the York River, very beautiful spot, very

25:41

similar location to where Kathy and Becky's car

25:43

have been found a mile and mile and

25:45

a half and about a year and a

25:47

half prior. So in April 1988 the FBI

25:50

realizes they have a very serious problem.

25:52

A young couple has gone missing, a

25:55

car has been found on the Colonial

25:57

Parkway. Keith calls Toyota Celica. Immediately,

26:00

there's something seriously wrong here.

26:02

They've already had two double

26:04

homicides Kathy Thomas and Rebecca

26:06

dowski in fall 86 on

26:09

the colonial Parkway and then

26:11

Robin Edwards and David Nobling at ragged

26:13

Island about a half an hour away

26:15

in fall 1987

26:18

now, it's April 1988. They've got a missing

26:20

couple the FBI Throws resources

26:22

at this case because they realize

26:24

there's a strong possibility this couple

26:26

that's gone missing is part of

26:28

this series of double homicides because

26:30

where the heck is this couple the FBI Puts

26:33

a bunch of agents on the case

26:36

and they rent out an entire hotel

26:38

on the colonial Parkway That's a motel

26:40

still there actually and they're working this

26:42

case 24 7

26:45

trying to figure out what happened to

26:47

this couple This is a pre-internet pre

26:49

cell phone environment and I know our

26:51

younger listeners look at me sometimes like

26:54

what? But in 1988

26:57

most people didn't have a cell phone

26:59

and there really wasn't much internet And

27:01

so the agents themselves are communicating by

27:03

radio and this becomes critical. They are

27:06

discussing leads that are being developed, you

27:09

know pretty much on the fly and

27:11

as part of their kind of all

27:13

points bulletin outreach They start

27:15

getting reports from a number of people

27:17

that were on the colonial Parkway the

27:20

night that Keith called Cassandra Haley went

27:22

missing And these are couples mostly involved

27:24

in making out at

27:27

these little half-moon pull-offs Along

27:29

the York River. It's so lightly patrolled

27:32

Everybody knows that if you want to go

27:34

engage in romantic or sexual behavior You

27:37

go to the colonial Parkway because it's

27:39

very lightly patrolled National

27:42

Park Service Rangers actually patrol it

27:44

but not heavily So

27:46

you can pretty much do whatever the

27:48

heck you want on the colonial park

27:50

waves one Longtime law enforcement officers said

27:52

to me built with the Wild West

27:54

out there beer drinking

27:56

pot smoking sex Kay

27:59

and straight pretty much anything went

28:01

after hours on the Colonial Parkway. So

28:03

they start getting these multiple reports of

28:05

this very distinctive truck that a number

28:08

of people saw in the Colonial Parkway.

28:10

And it was described as a blue-green

28:12

work truck. It was an old truck,

28:15

even in 1988. It

28:17

was a big flat-sided truck

28:19

with faded writing on the

28:21

doors and a very distinctive

28:24

rig on the back. To my eye, as a

28:26

civilian, it kind of looked like a tow truck

28:28

rig. But actually what it was is the

28:30

tongs and winches that

28:33

are used for crabbing and

28:35

oystering in all

28:38

the bays and inlets and rivers in

28:40

that area. There's a lot of people they call

28:42

watermen. So this is the kind of truck

28:45

that a waterman would drive to assist

28:47

in his work on the water. This

28:49

truck is super distinctive. It's truly one

28:51

of a kind. They know they're looking

28:53

for this truck. And the full-court press

28:55

is on. Now, remember, we talked about

28:57

the radios. One of the

29:00

support staff is

29:02

responsible for all the radios that

29:04

the agents are using to get

29:07

their orders and

29:09

to share information. He hears all

29:11

this chatter on the radio about

29:13

this very distinctive truck they're looking

29:15

for. A couple of days later,

29:17

so now we're talking about a

29:19

few days after Heath and Sandy

29:21

have gone missing, he, the radio

29:24

operator guy, radios

29:26

in himself and says, guys, I'm on the

29:29

highway and I'm next to the truck

29:31

you all are looking for. Gives them

29:34

a description. They say that's definitely the

29:36

truck. He's able to give them a

29:38

license plate, which is incredibly helpful. On

29:40

top of everything else, it's a vanity

29:42

plate. So it's very easy to remember.

29:44

It's the letters E, M,

29:47

raw. So it's eat-em-raw, which we

29:49

know is a sexual expression as

29:51

well as an oystering joke. So

29:54

now the FBI has a very

29:56

good description of this truck and

29:58

a license plate. Four

30:00

days after Keith Call and

30:02

Cassandra Haley have gone missing on

30:05

the Colonial Parkway, two FBI agents

30:08

roll up on this guy at his

30:10

home, which is up in Lancaster County,

30:12

Virginia. A couple of hours north, they

30:14

call it the upper neck. This is

30:16

a big area for watermen and a

30:19

lot of oyster rain, crabbing, et cetera,

30:21

goes on up there on the Rappahannock

30:23

River. So the two agents roll up

30:25

on this man in his

30:27

dirt driveway at his home, and he's

30:29

engaged in what they regard as really

30:32

suspicious behavior. He's cleaning out

30:34

the truck with some sort of water

30:36

and solvent and repainting surfaces in the bed

30:39

of the truck as well as in the

30:41

interior of the truck. So you guys got

30:43

a picture of this. This is actually a

30:45

1966 Dodge truck. It's

30:49

1988 at this point. This

30:51

is not some fancy truck. This

30:53

is a beater work truck. And

30:55

so why is this guy going

30:57

to these great lengths to clean

30:59

and paint the truck days after

31:01

the disappearance of this young couple?

31:03

The FBI agents are highly suspicious.

31:06

They interview the man right then and

31:08

there. They go back to headquarters and

31:10

they decide this guy's good

31:12

for the Colonial Parkway murders. Plural. They've

31:15

been looking for a waterman all the way back to

31:17

1986 in my sister's

31:20

murder because of rope, knives, diesel

31:22

fuel that were used in their

31:24

murder, which are the tools of

31:27

a waterman. So they

31:29

go back to the motel where they're

31:31

all holed up and they discuss this

31:33

with senior agents. They

31:35

get a search warrant and they go

31:37

back and they search the home. I've

31:39

heard it described as a trailer, sometimes

31:41

as a modest home, but it's a

31:43

small structure that he shares with his

31:45

older brother. They search the home and

31:47

they find what they're looking for. They

31:49

find guns, handcuffs. This

31:51

is very important because they believe handcuffs

31:53

were used in Kathy and Becky's murder

31:56

as well as a pretty extensive collection

31:58

of pornography. We've had several. profilers

32:00

on Mind Over Murder recently, including

32:02

Jim Clemente and Laura Richards. We're

32:04

going to have more profilers on

32:07

next week. These FBI profilers are flipping

32:09

out. This is like red flag after

32:11

red flag after red flag. This is

32:13

the kind of person you need to

32:15

be looking for in a series of

32:17

serial murders. So they search his home

32:20

that he shares with his brother. They find all

32:23

this potentially incriminating evidence.

32:26

Now, again, DNA is

32:28

not as advanced as it is now. Touch

32:30

DNA is not a thing yet. You

32:33

know, it's still the late eighties, but

32:35

they find a lot of evidence. They're

32:37

very hot on this guy without a

32:40

doubt. They bring him,

32:43

Alan Wade Wilmer, Sr. And

32:45

we believe a second man unnamed,

32:48

but possibly his brother, in for a

32:50

polygraph examination, a lie detector test. This

32:52

is key. The man that gives the

32:55

lie detector test, I know his name,

32:57

but I'm not going to say it

32:59

on the air. He's one of the

33:01

top polygraphers, as they call them, the

33:03

people that give the lie detector test.

33:05

He's one of the top guys at

33:08

the FBI. And he's the guy they

33:10

go to for all the spy cases.

33:12

There were a bunch of spies that

33:14

were busted in the eighties and nineties

33:17

connected to the Norfolk Naval Base,

33:19

which is right nearby. And the

33:21

CIA is right nearby. They've got

33:23

a training camp called Camp Perry

33:25

on the Colonial Parkway. There were

33:27

a number of spy cases that

33:29

were broken. And this guy was

33:31

the one who did those tests.

33:33

So this guy is considered like

33:35

the polygraph whisperer of the FBI.

33:37

Like he's the guy that gets

33:39

the truth. He gives polygraph examinations

33:41

to Alan Wade Wilmer, Sr. and

33:43

this other unnamed man. And

33:46

they pass, that is. And

33:49

now we're hearing that there may

33:51

have been a second polygraph examination given to

33:53

one or both of them. And it was

33:55

inconclusive. And we just had a polygraph examiner

33:58

on mind over murder, Lisa Ribicock. And

34:01

Lisa said, you know, when you get

34:03

that neither truthful nor

34:06

deceptive reply, usually you

34:08

have to keep digging. But for whatever

34:11

reason, this doesn't happen. And

34:13

they let these guys go. This

34:16

is the part that doesn't

34:18

come up at the press

34:20

conference. So we have this

34:22

situation where FBI agents were

34:24

absolutely rock solid certain this

34:26

was the guy. And

34:29

Irv Wells is quoted in

34:31

a book on the Colonial Parkway

34:33

murders written by her friend Blaine

34:35

Pardo and his daughter Victoria Hester.

34:38

They interviewed special agent in

34:41

charge Irv Wells who passed away

34:43

in 2022 about this story. And

34:46

he told them the story. Now in

34:48

the book, Blaine's publishers made

34:51

him change the license plate slightly

34:53

because they didn't want to be

34:55

highlighting a plate that could be

34:58

on by an innocent man. But

35:00

Edom Ra is very clearly what

35:02

the plate says. Irv Wells is

35:05

quoted as saying to the unnamed

35:07

FBI polygraph examiner, you better f&b

35:09

right. Because they were

35:12

certain this guy and

35:15

perhaps his accomplice were

35:17

directly involved in the Colonial Parkway murders.

35:19

But they don't want to talk about

35:21

this at the press conference. So when

35:23

the reporters ask, may we ask when

35:25

Alan Wade Wilmer senior

35:27

first moved on to your radar, the

35:29

FBI is desperately trying not to talk

35:32

about that. What I don't get is

35:34

why if the FBI is for so

35:36

certain in 1988, he was the right guy. Why

35:40

was this never revisited in

35:42

all these years later? Because

35:44

it turns out those FBI

35:46

agents and again, I know them by name. My

35:48

father used to talk to them directly and my

35:51

father would even mention in

35:53

his beautiful voice. My dad passed away a

35:55

couple of years ago at age 90, but

35:57

I remember him saying to us at family

35:59

dinners are talking. age and so and

36:01

so today. Their names were mentioned so

36:03

often in my family's house that we

36:05

knew them by name. Those agents were

36:08

convinced they had the

36:10

right guy and they were right.

36:12

But why in the world was

36:14

that information not conveyed to the

36:17

later case agents who've been revisiting this

36:19

case over the last 15 years? You

36:22

said at the beginning of this that you're going to try to stay

36:24

calm but honestly I

36:27

read a couple of articles that you explain

36:29

your frustration and you're getting into it here

36:32

where this is the source of the frustration

36:34

right? Like why in the world was nothing

36:36

done in the interim before this? Do you

36:38

have any answers on that or are you

36:41

sort of being stonewalled? Well we're

36:43

being terribly stonewalled. I mean it's

36:46

the amount of pressure that the

36:48

FBI has put on me in

36:50

the last year especially and behind

36:52

the scenes is really not

36:55

good. I mean they have amped up a significant

36:58

amount of pressure on me. They've

37:00

actually even threatened me at

37:02

this point. I've been threatened

37:04

with being brought up on

37:07

federal obstruction of justice charges

37:09

because I keep asking questions

37:11

about the Colonial Parkway murders

37:13

and I said on a conference

37:15

call with senior FBI agents a couple of years

37:17

ago, since when did the brother of the

37:20

murder victim become the enemy? Like I've

37:22

become the enemy because I kept talking

37:24

about the Colonial Parkway murders and asking

37:27

questions and questioning the pace of

37:29

the Colonial Parkway murders and quite

37:31

frankly their commitment to solving them. Some

37:33

experts have told me behind the scenes

37:36

and there's a lot of retired law

37:38

enforcement people coming out of the woodwork

37:40

reaching out to me privately and saying,

37:42

Bill you're on the right track don't

37:44

back off don't cave to their

37:46

pressure and these are law enforcement people that

37:49

are saying this stuff. There's a lot of

37:51

things about this case that make me extremely

37:53

uncomfortable and one of them is a number

37:55

of experts have told me behind

37:58

the scenes it feels like they don't want

38:00

to solve the Colonial Parkway murders.

38:02

And the why is really

38:05

troubling and I think this should bother

38:07

way more people than Bill Thomas. People

38:09

are telling me they may not want

38:11

to solve the Colonial Parkway murders because

38:13

they're embarrassing to the FBI and the

38:15

Virginia State Police because of all the

38:18

problems. I mean, I have to say

38:20

this, screw ups, whatever. I'll try to

38:22

keep my language clean here. I know

38:24

you run a family show, but the

38:26

level of, shall I say, papering over

38:28

or shall I say cover up that's

38:30

going on now trying to gloss

38:33

over there, I know there's

38:35

a charitable expression, they're serious

38:38

screw ups in this case. If the

38:40

FBI had done its job properly in

38:42

1988, Teresa Howell would still

38:46

be alive today. After two people

38:48

were questioned, search warrants were executed

38:50

and they were polygraphed, they let

38:52

them go. And then as near

38:54

as we can tell, the agents

38:57

who handled the case in the more recent years, the

38:59

last 15 years, we've had one

39:01

case agent for five years. Most recent

39:03

case agent has been reviewing this case

39:06

for 10 years. There's a

39:08

massive internal disconnect here. Why weren't

39:10

those agents that were so rock

39:12

solid certain that they had identified

39:15

the right person and they

39:17

were right? Why was that never

39:19

conveyed to the case agents that have been

39:21

working the case over the last 15 years? I

39:23

think that's very fair to ask.

39:25

And one quick question here, was

39:28

Teresa Howell, was she ever on

39:30

your radar as possibly a victim

39:32

connected to the Colonial Parkway murders?

39:34

No, not until my media sources

39:36

reached out to me in October

39:38

to say, Bill, there's been a

39:40

significant break in your sister's case

39:43

and there's new information coming down

39:45

the pipe. It doesn't directly impact

39:47

Kathy and Becky yet, but if

39:49

identified a guy, they're going to be

39:51

declaring him a serial killer and there's going to

39:53

be a lot of information. And then what

39:56

ends up coming out is way

39:59

less than. than what we

40:01

were told to expect. So Teresa Howell

40:03

was not really on our radar. I've

40:05

done a bunch of research, watch her

40:07

name has been put forward. We think

40:09

actually if the FBI and the Virginia

40:11

State Police do their jobs now, we

40:13

actually think Alan Wade Wilmer Sr. will

40:16

be linked to a number of

40:19

other rapes and murders in Virginia

40:21

and perhaps in adjoining states. There's

40:24

a lot of unanswered questions about

40:26

this man and his

40:28

long history. He's been linked and

40:31

his brother as well, have been linked to

40:33

murders extending back to at least 1985. We're

40:37

actually hearing and people as you can

40:39

imagine are coming out of the woodwork

40:41

with new information and we're pushing people

40:43

hard to please contact the Virginia State

40:46

Police and the FBI. We totally support their

40:48

effort to learn as much as they can

40:50

about Alan Wade Wilmer Sr. He's been dead

40:52

since 2017, but we

40:54

believe he was an active serial killer in the 80s,

40:58

90s, extending beyond. I never know

41:00

what to call that next decade.

41:02

I hate the aughts, but whatever, the 2000s,

41:06

we believe he was an active serial

41:08

killer for decades. He's

41:10

been basically out there raping

41:13

and killing people for decades

41:15

basically with impunity despite being

41:17

linked to a number of

41:19

different unsolved rapes and murders

41:21

and that's really disturbing. We'll

41:24

be right back after a quick word from our

41:26

sponsor. And

41:29

a thank you to our sponsors. Back to the

41:31

program. I

41:33

Just want to try to center

41:36

where your sister's murder and Rebecca

41:38

Dowsky's was in proximity to David

41:40

Nobling and Robin Edwards. How close

41:42

were those crime scenes? The Two

41:45

crime scenes on the Colonial Parkway

41:47

itself, which are FBI cases. If

41:49

what happened to Keith and Sandy

41:51

happened on the Colonial Parkway, we

41:54

don't know that because all we

41:56

have is a car with the

41:58

clothing inside it. Those two scenes

42:00

or about a mile and a half

42:03

apart along the Colonial Park where if

42:05

you use those two places from Eighty

42:07

Six and Eighty Eight as a center

42:09

point, I don't think that's unfair because

42:11

we know that the double homicide start.

42:13

At. Kathy and Back use Crime Scene

42:16

on the Colonial Parkway. It's about a

42:18

half an hour in either direction to

42:20

answer that number two. Which.

42:22

Is the incident involving the rape

42:24

and murder of Robin and written

42:27

David Now blink. That's about a

42:29

half hour. kind of roughly south

42:31

incident number for Animal Yourselves and

42:33

Daniel Lauer go missing on Interstate

42:35

Sixty Four about a half an

42:37

hour. Roughly. North of that

42:39

center point on the Colonial Parkway.

42:41

By the way, Anna Maria Phelps

42:43

and Daniel our our found at

42:46

a have club. Six. Weeks

42:48

after going missing. And this man,

42:50

Allen Wade Wilmer Senior is an

42:52

avid hunter. He's a crack shot.

42:55

He's. A championship Bowman?

42:57

He's one. Archery contest.

42:59

His brother Keith has one

43:01

crack shooting competitions up in

43:04

Lancaster County and elsewhere, so

43:06

these guys are really adapt.

43:09

Woods. Been and waterman. They

43:12

know. The. Woods backwards and

43:14

forwards. They level water incredibly well.

43:16

They're both waterman. They believe that

43:18

Allen Wade Wilmer Senior actually lived

43:21

on his fishing boat. the Danny

43:23

weighed four weeks or even months

43:25

at a time, and doctor in

43:27

the area of the Colonial Parkway

43:30

that actually puts him can minutes

43:32

away by water. And actually now

43:34

the theory is. An. I have

43:37

to criticize myself here. I don't think I

43:39

ever got it. People in talk to me.

43:41

I'm in online forums where do we discuss

43:43

these in other cases and as a whole

43:45

sub group of people that been talking about

43:47

the Colonial Parkway Mers for years. A number

43:50

of them had said they thought that a

43:52

waterman was involved which was one of the

43:54

leading theory that the time even all the

43:56

way back Cathy Mbeki murder and that a

43:58

boat was used and other. The failure

44:00

of imagination on my part. Maybe

44:02

not growing up in that Williamsburg

44:04

York River, James River Just be

44:07

Bay Area, be surrounded by water.

44:09

I never quite got it. So

44:11

I was actually a skeptic at

44:13

the Waterman theory. And further, I

44:15

was also a skeptic up the

44:17

fact that the cloning of Parkway

44:19

murders were linked because nothing scientifically

44:21

even to this day until we

44:23

have this Dna connection links the

44:25

Colonial Parkway Mers, you know. I

44:27

had always said I was prepared.

44:30

To be wrong. But I think I was wrong. On.

44:32

The Waterman theory and I was wrong on

44:34

the fact that I was doubtful that they

44:36

were all collected. The more I learned over

44:38

the years. I think it was wrong about

44:40

that too. It's really interesting because I remember

44:42

we had talked a while ago about the

44:45

person involved might be someone who is familiar

44:47

with the water, had a boat? I think

44:49

maybe the term waterman did come up, but

44:51

I'm not sure. but even in my head

44:53

I was thinking wouldn't that read more eyebrows

44:55

And and as doesn't seem likely until you

44:57

describe the area, you know it's like constant

44:59

Both see, know, it's a lot less obvious

45:01

when both. Traveling in and out and

45:03

and docking in doing what they're doing.

45:05

You know that? Sort of just like

45:08

the daily everyday business of that area.

45:10

Yeah, exactly. And I think because I

45:12

didn't grow up there, I mean I've

45:14

always had visited the site many times

45:16

and Kristen Delhi is from Williamsburg and

45:18

we've worked very closely with the other

45:20

families the call Highly doubt Key family's

45:22

All of us have worked together and

45:24

a number of those families are from

45:26

Virginia and maybe they would get it.

45:29

Better. Than I would. But you're absolutely

45:31

right lamps. there's time to boats. I

45:33

mean hundreds. Fishing. Boats Giant

45:36

United States Navy ships sailing

45:38

right by on these rivers.

45:40

They load heist losses and

45:42

even nuclear weapons about. A

45:45

mile ourselves from the site where

45:47

kathy him back his car was

45:49

found. It's called the Cheatham Annex

45:52

Overlook and see them. Annex is

45:54

part of the Naval Weapons Station.

45:56

They load high explosives on Navy

45:59

ships at. What you're headed out to

46:01

Sea. Or up to and including

46:03

nuclear weapons and either you can see

46:05

all that work in the distance. But

46:08

the idea that everything from small watercraft

46:10

to major. United. States navy

46:12

and freighter type ships or cruising by

46:14

is not out of the ordinary. So

46:17

this guy if he used his boat

46:19

which they're now thinking. He. May

46:21

have done exactly that. would have

46:23

easily just slipped right in and

46:26

out in apparently. He was very,

46:28

very good on the water and

46:30

so he knew that tides and

46:32

weird a dog he could have

46:34

left his boat. Use the truck.

46:37

The one thing that gets very

46:39

interesting Lance and Tim is the

46:41

logistics of moving and staging. That's

46:43

the word they're still using of

46:46

these vehicles. That is the victims

46:48

cars and trucks. Seems so complicated

46:50

that it's. Hard not to think there

46:52

might be a second person involved. Even if

46:54

they're not involved in the killing, they might

46:57

be involved in the moving and staging of

46:59

the vehicles afterwards. Because I've been to some

47:01

of these sites with the investigators in a

47:03

walk me through how they think some of

47:06

these attacks happened. but I have to say

47:08

a number of us including people are farmer

47:10

expert than I am have said you know

47:12

this of be I heck of a lot

47:15

simpler if there was a second driver or

47:17

a second person operating a vehicle. They say

47:19

this guy has been out stalking. Single

47:21

women. And. Couples for decades

47:23

and that he was always on the

47:26

prowl as we've heard about with many

47:28

serial killers. Yeah, that could definitely make

47:30

sense if for talking about two suspects

47:32

here I know going over this in

47:35

the past we of thought there was

47:37

a decent chance of that. Also one

47:39

thing that we had sort of discussed

47:41

in the past was the idea that

47:44

possibly the suspect was impersonating an officer

47:46

on land and that seems like that

47:48

was not the case. Now with Alan,

47:50

we'd Wilmer Senior because of his. Vehicle

47:53

Well let me stop you though.

47:55

People are coming forward again now

47:57

and this is also disturbing news.

48:00

Family people are reaching out to me

48:02

directly and other families. They're saying that

48:04

Allen Wade Wilmer. Did pullover

48:06

people on the Colonial Parkway. He didn't

48:09

try to present himself as a cop.

48:11

Sometimes is driving the very same vehicle,

48:13

which is incredibly distinctive. I'm people remembered

48:15

it. Sometimes he was driving other pickup

48:18

trucks and other vehicles. He had access

48:20

to other vehicles by a number of

48:22

people have come forward and said they

48:24

had terrifying encounters with a man driving

48:26

that truck matching that description. This guy

48:29

by the way, that neatly trimmed beard

48:31

and kind of sandy. Blind Harrys average

48:33

looking I think. but something is very

48:35

distinctive. In this is was not covered

48:38

in the press conference either. He's five

48:40

foot five inches tall, so she's really

48:42

pretty, compact, and he's very, very muscular.

48:44

I was joking on mine over murder

48:47

that he kind of sounds like Popeye

48:49

the sailor man. Who knows like this

48:51

really built guy, but he's really. Small

48:54

people are now coming forward and they're

48:56

saying they had terrifying encounters with a

48:59

man exactly matching this description. He will

49:01

come up to the window sang on

49:03

a windows when these people were parked

49:06

along the Colonial Parkway. Demands driver's licenses.

49:08

Now remember there's already been several murders

49:10

bite his some of these encounters so

49:13

people have been advised to. Slip

49:15

their driver's licenses through a cracked

49:17

window at the top, and several

49:19

people did that. When. I remember

49:22

one woman who just approach me. she

49:24

retired architects. She and a male friend

49:26

were accosted by this man on the

49:29

Colonial Parkway. He's wearing like a mechanics

49:31

uniform is a way she described. He's

49:33

driving that truck, know police lights know

49:36

badge. He flashes some sort of Id

49:38

bad to settle Vegas security company or

49:40

something like that. Nada Cops badge. He

49:43

just in a foot away that at

49:45

them he's pounding on the window demandingly

49:47

role window down and demanding driver's licenses

49:49

that given the driver's. Licenses and then

49:52

he goes back to his proc and he's

49:54

used his headlights to flash them down and

49:56

now we've got the high beams on which

49:58

cops do and she and her. Fran

50:00

are having a quick discussion like this isn't

50:02

a cop, we need to get the hell

50:04

outta here. They refuse to roll the window

50:07

down, he's being incredibly aggressive, but they do

50:09

manage to get away. So they lived to

50:11

tell the tale. But she said to me

50:13

just the other day this guy could barely

50:15

see over the top of their dots and

50:17

be to ten which is a little economy

50:20

car. I laughed because my older brother Richard

50:22

used to have one when he was at

50:24

the Naval academy and she said he is.

50:26

he was looking at him more closely the

50:28

she was on the passenger. Side and

50:30

she realized. He. Could barely see over

50:33

the top of the car and she noticed

50:35

he was pounding on the window using his

50:37

hands trying to get them to put the

50:39

window down and she noticed how large and

50:42

calloused his hands where she she said his

50:44

hands were like out of proportion to the

50:46

size of is relatively small. bought a compact

50:48

body and so she remembered a lot of

50:50

details. Will now it's come out that the

50:53

F B I and the National Park Service

50:55

who. Run. The Colonial

50:57

Parkway had received dozens of

50:59

complaints. About. A man

51:02

matching this description often but not

51:04

always driving the same truck. And

51:06

how they weren't able to put

51:08

all that together is beyond me.

51:10

This guy was out there terrorizing

51:12

people. There's one couple a sold

51:14

us mrs up male female couple

51:16

but the guy had long hair

51:18

but what they billed as a

51:20

suspect. They believe it's warmer. Said.

51:23

Was very odd. He came up and

51:25

banged on the window same thing, very

51:27

aggressive and he said are you girls

51:30

having fun. And then the guy

51:32

turned to him that was in the driver's seat.

51:34

And he had long hair. Wilmer realize

51:36

he's not dealing with the same sex

51:38

couple. he's dealing with a boy girl

51:41

couple and he actually ended up backing

51:43

off. Now interestingly we know a gun

51:45

was used in a number of these

51:47

assaults because Robin Average David novel are

51:49

shot to death so we think what

51:51

he was trying to do was get

51:53

them to roll down the window. But

51:56

back to this couple with a guy

51:58

with the longhair. What an odd thing

52:00

to say or new girl having fine

52:02

considering. The. Murder of a same

52:04

sex couple. Kathy Com is Rebecca Dusky

52:06

My sister has already happened. You know,

52:09

maybe it's a joke, Maybe it's not.

52:11

But it's so weird thing to say.

52:13

What we're disturbed about. is it the

52:15

F B I and the National Park

52:18

Service were getting all these port. Wine.

52:20

With a putting this together. And

52:22

why didn't anybody ever go back

52:25

and take another hard look at

52:27

Wilmer while he was still alive?

52:29

particularly in the last six years

52:31

or so since the goals and

52:33

killer case proved. That. Dna

52:35

could help crack serial murders like this.

52:38

I would have to imagine that nonsense

52:40

and would have had an image of

52:42

Wilmer Senior at a Good Show To

52:45

These people. When they're giving their statements

52:47

about these moments of being accosted by

52:49

this individual that never happened in this

52:51

guy. Who was this guy ever arrested

52:54

for anything Ever. They made some really

52:56

odd comments about the fact that they

52:58

couldn't law enforcement couldn't get his Dna

53:01

because he'd never been arrested for a

53:03

felony. And. Gym Clemente said on

53:05

mind over murdered the other day that's

53:07

a lie He said that's bullshit. That's.

53:10

A lie and he said, how

53:12

do you think they got the

53:14

goal? This a killer case solved.

53:16

They identify the suspect and then

53:18

they went out and collected his

53:20

dna surreptitiously. As we know you

53:22

know from all these other cases,

53:24

they can select your dna from

53:26

a variety of sources legitimately if

53:29

you throw out your trash that's

53:31

considered abandoned property. That's how they

53:33

got the gold. Was a killer

53:35

In so many these other cases,

53:37

they put teams on people and

53:39

followed suspects. Waited till they threw a

53:41

cigarette out the window or a coffee

53:43

shop or whatever. I apparently serial killers

53:46

are very sloppy and not very environmentally

53:48

conscious because I don't for coffee cups

53:50

out the window. All joking aside, there

53:52

were opportunities and gym Clemente and Laura

53:54

Richards, both of whom are have thirty

53:56

plus years in law enforcement. Both of

53:58

them are f. trained profilers.

54:01

Jim was career FBI for 30

54:03

years and Laura comes from New

54:05

Scotland Yard in the UK. They

54:07

were outraged. They said those

54:09

things said at that press conference were

54:11

not true and of course they could

54:14

have collected Wilmer's DNA. What we can't

54:16

believe is what's the disconnect inside the

54:18

Federal Bureau of Investigation? Agents are not

54:21

talking to each other. Yeah that's a

54:23

great point. That seems like a familiar

54:25

story. A couple of different departments and

54:27

the communication lacks and things like that.

54:30

I wonder if that was an issue

54:32

here with you know Virginia State Police,

54:34

National Park Service, FBI. One question I

54:36

have was in the accounts from people

54:39

who claimed that they recall a

54:41

suspect who

54:43

looked like Wilmer who may have pulled

54:46

them over, was there ever a second

54:48

suspect in any of those stories? I

54:50

don't think so and the FBI

54:53

and Virginia State Police and Hampton

54:55

PD really emphasized that Alan Wade

54:58

Wilmer Sr. was a loner. They

55:01

said this a lot. I'm not aware

55:03

of any reports involving

55:05

a second man or anyone else

55:07

in the car or truck in

55:09

many of these examples. That's a

55:12

good question Tim and so far from

55:15

what I'm hearing and talking to retired

55:17

law enforcement, people that have worked this

55:19

case, people that have not authorized to

55:21

speak about this case on the record

55:24

at this point, I haven't heard a

55:26

single report that involves two men in

55:28

a car. What about your personal feelings?

55:31

Do you think Alan Wade Wilmer is

55:33

the guy responsible for Kathy's murder?

55:35

It's certainly worth checking out. The

55:37

FBI has looked at a number

55:39

of other suspects in Kathy

55:42

and Becky's case. I was basically

55:44

begging our FBI agent a week

55:46

or so ago on the phone

55:48

to make certain that she is

55:50

not so tunnel visioned on one

55:52

suspect that she's not taking another

55:54

really hard look at Wilmer

55:56

because obviously he's linked by DNA to the

55:58

murder of Robert Williams. Robin Edwards and

56:00

David Nobling and the murder of Teresa

56:03

Howell. And then certainly more than circumstantially,

56:05

he's also linked to the disappearance of

56:07

Keith Cullen and Cassandra Haley. So there's

56:10

five murders right there. Now I'm a

56:12

civilian, but we don't have to prove

56:14

any of this in court, by the

56:17

way. The man's dead and has been

56:19

dead since 2017. I

56:22

think it's very likely that Wilmer may

56:24

be responsible for Kathy and Becky's death.

56:26

I also think given the Hunt Club

56:28

and a bunch of other details that

56:30

we know from the Anna Maria

56:33

Phelps Daniel Lauer case, incident number

56:35

four in the Colonial Parkway murders.

56:37

And by the way, Interstate 64

56:39

would be one of

56:41

the ways very easily that

56:43

Wilmer would have used to

56:45

drive back and forth between

56:48

the Williamsburg, Norfolk, Hampton area,

56:50

his home base

56:52

of Lancaster County, Virginia. Interstate

56:55

64 is one of the direct routes.

56:57

I think he's actually quite possibly responsible

56:59

for the murder of Anna Maria Phelps

57:01

and Daniel Lauer. His

57:03

brother has been linked

57:05

by circumstances, certainly, to

57:07

an unsolved murder in

57:09

the Rappahannock area on

57:12

the Rappahannock River. There's a fantastic

57:14

article in the Washingtonian magazine called,

57:16

A Murder on the Rappahannock River.

57:19

And a man named Emerson Stevens was convicted

57:21

and sent to prison. And he served 31

57:23

years. They recently let

57:26

him out of prison because he

57:28

didn't kill the victim, a woman

57:30

named Mary Harding. Strange coincidence department,

57:32

shall we say. Mary Harding, the

57:35

victim, who was 24, worked

57:37

at the Lancaster Bank with

57:40

one of the early suspects in that

57:42

case. His wife, Brenda

57:44

Pittman Wilmer, worked at the

57:47

very same bank with Keith

57:49

Wilmer's wife. Keith Wilmer, Alan

57:51

Wade Wilmer's brother, was regarded

57:54

as one of the leading

57:56

suspects in this now unsolved

57:58

murder of Mary Harding. And

58:01

this poor man Emerson Stevens

58:03

served 31 years. The Commonwealth of

58:05

Virginia has not admitted this is

58:07

a wrongful conviction, but it is.

58:09

They recently let him go a

58:11

couple of years ago. But

58:13

this poor man served 31 years

58:15

in jail for a murder he

58:17

didn't commit. And now they're back

58:20

to revisiting, was Keith Wilmer involved

58:22

in this murder? And perhaps did

58:24

his wife, whom he's still

58:26

married to, did she share information

58:28

about abuse within her family or

58:30

other issues with her good friend

58:32

Mary Harding, who ends up being

58:34

raped, murdered, and dumped in the

58:36

Rappahannock River with weight attached to

58:38

her body? I think that kind

58:40

of falls outside of the category

58:42

of the coincidence department though.

58:44

I was thinking the same thing,

58:47

Lance. I think you're absolutely right.

58:49

Look, I'm not saying anyone's guilty

58:51

of anything beyond what law enforcement

58:53

can prove. But I do think

58:56

Alan Wade Wilmer, Sr. will be

58:58

linked to a number of other

59:00

unsolved rapes and murders. And perhaps

59:03

sadly, even some so-called solved rapes

59:05

and murders, I'm hearing from law

59:07

enforcement sources that they fear that

59:09

there are other people who are

59:12

currently incarcerated for crimes that were

59:14

actually committed by Alan Wade Wilmer, Sr.

59:16

Or people even worse that had died

59:18

in prison serving lengthy sentences

59:21

for crimes they didn't commit because Alan

59:23

Wade Wilmer, Sr. was responsible for those

59:25

rapes and murders as well. It's going

59:27

to be amazing to see how this

59:30

all unfolds. You kind of gave us

59:32

some indication of what's next for you,

59:34

but what is your game

59:36

plan as much as you can tell us

59:39

here? How are you approaching everything? One thing

59:41

I figured out is that being a whistleblower

59:43

isn't much fun. I

59:46

think that the FBI, Virginia

59:48

State Police, and local law

59:51

enforcement have to work together

59:53

these cases, so many

59:55

of whom are linked. I think law

59:57

enforcement has to be honest with

59:59

them. The public in Virginia

1:00:01

and across the country and

1:00:04

reveal what they know about

1:00:06

these cases. warts and all.

1:00:08

We understand very very serious

1:00:11

problems in these cases. We

1:00:13

understand that. We. The waiting

1:00:15

for answers. For thirty seven years, we

1:00:17

get the fact that some. Of.

1:00:19

These suspects are dead, but

1:00:21

we're still looking for answers.

1:00:23

What I'm concerned about is

1:00:26

that law enforcement seems to

1:00:28

be scrambling to cover up

1:00:30

their mistakes. and this seems

1:00:32

to be so much more

1:00:34

about reputation Management Benefit does

1:00:36

about. Solving. Cases and

1:00:39

when been I said on

1:00:41

might have emerged the other

1:00:43

day was institutional interests seem

1:00:45

to be superseding investigative. Interests

1:00:48

And that's really troubling, even back to

1:00:50

the January eighth Press conference. If the

1:00:52

F B I had admitted they had

1:00:54

this man in Nineteen Eighty Eight and

1:00:56

let him go either, just admit it

1:00:58

and move forward. Take your lumps. A

1:01:00

When I screw up in my life,

1:01:03

which I do plenty in my personal

1:01:05

life, my professional life, my partner Pamela

1:01:07

can tell you I try real hard,

1:01:09

don't always succeed, but I try to

1:01:11

admit my mistakes, my shortcomings, and try

1:01:13

to let the other person know that

1:01:15

I've tried to learn from that. And.

1:01:17

I will do my best to make

1:01:20

sure that doesn't happen again. If that's

1:01:22

not gonna happen with these law enforcement

1:01:24

agencies, that's a problem. If we can't

1:01:26

admit that there were mistakes made and

1:01:29

move forward together in an open and

1:01:31

honest way, I fear these cases will

1:01:33

not be solved. Several F B I

1:01:35

agents of said to me recently. Will.

1:01:38

Bill your all about transparency. What

1:01:40

they're implying is and they're not.

1:01:43

And that's a problem. and I

1:01:45

think it's terrible for the reputation

1:01:47

of the F B I and

1:01:49

the Virginia State Police. If they

1:01:52

want people to trust them and

1:01:54

look up to law enforcement like

1:01:56

I do, they need to acknowledge

1:01:58

lox we had. Problems remain mistakes.

1:02:01

But. We're moving forward here. The

1:02:03

family's want to support law

1:02:05

enforcement in seeking information about Alan

1:02:07

Weighed Wilmer Senior and we want

1:02:10

the public to come forward.

1:02:12

But while we're celebrating the good

1:02:14

news. For. The.

1:02:17

Edwards know Billing and Howell families

1:02:19

and it is good news. It's

1:02:21

a mixed bag if you know,

1:02:23

and I mean because it's heartbreaking,

1:02:25

but we've been looking for answers

1:02:27

for more than thirty years and

1:02:30

all of these cases Soda Get

1:02:32

Answers is very, very important to

1:02:34

all of our families. I hesitate

1:02:36

to. Go back and revisit

1:02:38

this because every time I do, The

1:02:41

numbers get worse, but you know we

1:02:43

have eight victims and their core Colonial

1:02:45

Parkway murders. So we have sixteen moms,

1:02:47

dads, And. We've lost nine of

1:02:49

the sixteen mothers and fathers in

1:02:51

this case. So let me be

1:02:53

clear her, they went to their

1:02:56

grades not knowing who killed their

1:02:58

loved ones or even what happened

1:03:00

to their loved ones. My parents

1:03:02

are both gone and the call

1:03:04

family. I mean I can just

1:03:06

keep naming names with each year

1:03:08

more and more family members are

1:03:10

dying, literally dying, waiting for answers.

1:03:12

You know? Can we stop with

1:03:14

the with the finger pointing in

1:03:16

the back biting indeed? The

1:03:18

cover up and focus on actually getting

1:03:21

people answers in the Colonial park. I

1:03:23

don't think that's an unreasonable thing to

1:03:25

ask for.