0:28

Welcome to Crawl Space. I'm Tim here today

0:30

with Lance. Lance, how are you today? I'm

0:32

doing fantastic today, Tim. I hope everyone out

0:34

there who's listening, I hope they're doing just

0:37

as fantastic, if not better. I love it

0:39

when we make new friends. And

0:41

a few weeks ago we made a

0:44

new friend, Jerry Colbert, who is one

0:46

of three responsible for a great new

0:48

podcast that's out there. But Tim, you're

0:50

responsible right now for telling not only

0:53

me, but everyone out there how you're

0:55

doing today. Doing alright today.

0:57

Thank you for applying that pressure

0:59

to my answer. It's probably not

1:01

gonna change ever in these intros.

1:03

But no, I'm doing good. Yes,

1:05

we spoke with Jerry a couple

1:08

weeks ago and now we spoke

1:10

with Kim and Adam. So we've

1:12

had all three of the hosts

1:14

of Slaycation on our Crawl Space

1:16

airwaves and really we've had a

1:18

lot of fun talking with them.

1:20

We really have and this is

1:22

a true crime podcast with a

1:24

comedy element to it. But Kim's

1:26

background was centered in the area

1:28

of domestic violence and working with

1:31

shelters for domestic violence survivors, really

1:33

making a change, making a difference

1:35

in those communities. So there's this

1:38

level of real world application that

1:40

goes into the stories that they

1:42

tell. And Adam is there

1:45

for those moments that need the comic relief.

1:47

This is such a fun conversation and also

1:49

a wonderful glimpse into the married life of

1:52

two podcast hosts. Yeah, absolutely. And

1:54

I was talking about you and me. Of

1:56

course. Yeah. And Adam, Tex Davis,

1:58

he actually. wrote the movie with

2:00

Ryan Reynolds called Just Friends, which was pretty

2:03

cool. I know I'm sure

2:05

a lot of our listeners recall that

2:07

movie fondly. Very funny movie. Very cool

2:09

guests and yeah, we hope you enjoy

2:11

this conversation. And Slaycation covers a number

2:14

of these stories, so be sure to

2:16

check out their podcast wherever you get

2:18

your podcast. But in this episode, we

2:21

talk about the stories of Tina and

2:23

Gabe Watson, Tony and Harold Henthorn, and

2:25

Shancuela Robinson. So we covered

2:27

three of the standout stories that they've

2:30

talked about in episodes of Slaycation. Alright

2:32

everyone, we're going to break quick for

2:34

commercial here. Make sure to check out

2:36

Crawl Space Premium that's now on Apple

2:39

Podcasts. You can get ad-free episodes, early

2:41

releases and our bonus show. So check

2:43

that out. And if you're not an

2:45

Apple user, go to crawlspace.supportingcast.fm for

2:48

that same product. Okay, we're going to break

2:50

quick for commercial and we'll be right back

2:53

with Kim and Adam. Get

2:58

go. Super Bowl 34. The

3:01

Titans Rams 2000 Super Bowl and

3:04

Instinct. Hours

3:07

after the game, two men were

3:09

stabbed in the street accused of being

3:12

in the middle, the greatest linebacker

3:14

in NFL history. Ray Lewis and

3:16

two friends are charged with murder.

3:19

The nation's eyes were glued to their

3:22

televisions. The trial concluded and

3:24

the verdicts came back. Not

3:26

guilty. What you can learn from all

3:28

this is that big cases make for

3:30

a big mistake. Look what happened in

3:32

our case and look what happened in

3:34

Ray Lewis. Lewis went on to

3:36

have a Hall of Fame career. But questions

3:38

around that night in Atlanta still

3:40

remain. What do you think about it?

3:42

They know what happened. They know exactly

3:45

what happened. After 20 years, it's time

3:47

to get to the bottom line from

3:50

Tenderfoot TV. I'm Tim Livingston

3:52

and this is the Raven. Listen

3:55

for free on Apple podcasts or wherever

3:57

you get your podcasts for ad

3:59

free listening. Early Access. Subscribe

4:01

to Tenorfoot Plus on tenorfootplus.com.

4:06

Thank you to our sponsors. Back to the

4:08

program. Welcome to the podcast.

4:10

Kim and Adam Davis, how's it going today?

4:12

Hey, good. How's it going with you guys?

4:14

We're doing great. We always love, and I

4:16

say this every time we have an interview

4:19

on Friday, we tend to schedule our Friday

4:21

interviews to be a little less heavy than

4:23

the ones that we do during the week

4:25

where we cover a lot of true crime

4:28

and serious topics. We'll get some serious topics

4:30

here, don't get me wrong, but we were

4:32

so excited to get the opportunity to speak

4:34

with the two of you about your show

4:36

and beyond. Because just in the email exchanges that

4:39

we've had, we knew that this was going to

4:41

be a delight. So just thank

4:43

you so much for rounding out our week in

4:45

a nice, positive way. Well, how dare you say

4:47

it's like, patient is not a heavy, heavy topic.

4:51

How's Jerry, sir? Well, thanks for

4:53

having us. Yeah, thank you. And if you have anything bad

4:55

to say about Jerry, you should get it off your chest

4:57

now. It's just the four of us here. Well,

5:00

that's what the podcast is for. You get

5:02

to unload on him there. You

5:05

know, Jerry's great. And I saw the interview you

5:07

guys did with him. He set a high bar.

5:09

He's a lot of

5:11

fun to speak with. Absolutely. Yeah, as

5:13

you both know, because you host a

5:15

podcast with him. Yeah, so we had

5:17

Jerry on a few weeks ago speaking

5:19

about this great new podcast called Slacation.

5:21

But before we get into Slacation, can

5:24

we get a little background on you

5:26

both? And what made you guys decide

5:28

to do this podcast? He's

5:30

far more interesting than I am

5:33

in the respect of theater

5:35

or film and

5:37

even podcasting. A lot of my

5:39

work is in my past life.

5:41

I was mostly in social work,

5:44

social services. I

5:46

worked in a crisis shelter for

5:48

victims of domestic violence, worked with

5:51

women in particular that

5:53

dealt with homelessness, addictions. I've

5:55

done some acting. I've done, you

5:57

know, stage managing. In

6:00

it's rare I am studio but the

6:02

one constant with me if my obsession

6:04

with true crime sachs the constant like

6:07

I was into. To climb before they even

6:09

knew who the Green River killer was. So. I'm

6:12

a film guy you know Jerry night we

6:15

met at from school talking like eighty nine.

6:17

He was doing more theater and and he

6:19

got more to tv I was doing more

6:21

film. I was always doing comedy stuff. I

6:24

wrote the movie just friends with Ryan Reynolds

6:26

but I always had this this cool obsession

6:28

with serial killers and like dark stuff in

6:30

my spare time. I also feel right harm

6:33

movies and and you know try to come

6:35

up with our concepts. you know I met

6:37

him and Tim was like. The.

6:39

Only person who had seen Henry portrait of a

6:41

serial killer and like he was. I make a

6:44

joke on the first time I went to her

6:46

house like you know her bedroom it look like

6:48

the crime section of the library with all these

6:50

books on the shelves and I was like holy

6:53

crap are you in Northern Maine hunting humans? Parts

6:55

two and three like this is amazing. He or

6:57

she had a very dark job and my job

6:59

was to make her laugh and to find ways

7:02

of being funny to get her to not just

7:04

the crying all the time about all the the

7:06

hell and as a as a as a domestic

7:08

violence you're having to sparrows. Var fellow human

7:11

yeah you know I'm always thinking about ideas

7:13

for crime shows and stuff and I saw

7:15

case where people went on vacation and one

7:17

kill the other tried to make it look

7:20

like an accident and I just said the

7:22

word slate asian and she parked out front

7:24

use like that exist and I was like

7:26

ah let's what know it does not. You.

7:29

Know Jerry fees on the fence about true crime He

7:31

you know he's worked in it and he's done it.

7:33

but at the same time it's not his favorite trees.

7:36

it's dark and that you know he's very because very

7:38

emotional. A similar i have a

7:40

strange way of detaching so that we don't

7:42

feel those the heaviness too much. I mean

7:44

probably gonna from social work well sort of.

7:47

Compartmentalizing. In a

7:49

healthy way Does were like let's do it

7:51

but let's make sure we have fun and

7:53

be entertaining. But I mean obviously want to

7:55

be respectful to the victims and stuff and

7:57

mean these are real people. You know the

7:59

concept of. Jerry and Tim know the

8:01

the story and I don't so they're

8:03

telling it to me in real time

8:05

so I can make comments, ask questions,

8:07

make jokes that die some people like

8:09

and some people don't like. Yeah, Sicily

8:11

don't like. I

8:14

feel like you are of the perspective of

8:16

the audience Adam where you're learning about it

8:18

and you're thinking okay the audience is probably

8:20

thinking what about this song and ass this

8:22

or you know he might be a little

8:25

bit of Gallows humor by you make a

8:27

joke right? I feel like Kim your background

8:29

with the Crisis. Shelter and working with

8:31

domestic violence survivors. I feel like

8:33

that lends so much credibility to

8:35

the show. Because you've been there

8:37

and you've seen this, There's no

8:39

amount of gratitude and respect the

8:41

Tim and I can give to

8:43

you putting yourself in that position

8:45

to help people. Will thank you.

8:47

I appreciate that You know the thing to.

8:50

It's not the kind of work that you

8:52

do for the money because there is none.

8:55

Of. It's tough.

8:57

It's tough And. I think. Also, the

8:59

thing that makes it additionally hotter is. Just

9:01

realizing how awful we we are to

9:03

each other and I think also just

9:06

you know doing this it gives you

9:08

also an opportunity. This sort of encourage

9:10

everyone to. Be. A little kinder

9:12

say even in a very small way. For

9:14

hims credit like I you know I was

9:17

working. I think it was working in a

9:19

car wash factory at the time, like up

9:21

at a factory in Hackensack, New Jersey that

9:23

made car washes like all the machinery that

9:25

in a car wash and I was writing

9:27

on the side. And then I finally got

9:30

my big break and sold a couple of

9:32

scripts and I said the kim I was

9:34

like hey told us the shelter you're done,

9:36

you don't have to work there anymore. as

9:39

she was like what know Nc state and

9:41

she worked. For. Several. More

9:43

years because she knew she was helping

9:45

when the bureaucracy they got to out

9:47

of control things always always always. Politics

9:49

and bureaucracy. It follows

9:51

you in all aspects.

9:54

A statistically fired like to people and then said

9:56

what, we don't have to hire anyone, You could

9:58

just covered all Roka says. And. Then he

10:00

was like i think I'm done Yeah, I

10:03

mean we hear the stories all of the

10:05

time because we do have individuals on the

10:07

show. A lot of that comes from a

10:09

lot of that abuse. A lot of the

10:12

result someone going missing comes from domestic violence.

10:14

And we do speak with people who work

10:16

in shelters and work with domestic abuse survivors.

10:18

And there's always that moment that they say

10:20

this is where the system failed us. Oh

10:23

yeah, absolutely. It's unfortunate because. At the end

10:25

of the day it's of groove news

10:27

and it will. Always take

10:29

precedence. Even over people

10:31

you know a lot of mine I

10:34

as a T because I remember you

10:36

know walking in their. Sort of

10:38

like okay, I'm you Health, I'm

10:40

here to help. I'm here to

10:43

change lungs and you soon realize

10:45

like, yeah, Not quite

10:47

how that works. The. Mean

10:49

you could try squeeze that in. It can

10:51

be very. Emotional. I

10:53

remember when they do these things

10:56

where the evaluate your performance. I

10:58

remember the a nice evaluation it

11:00

was isn't supportive of tough. Administrative

11:03

decision. Because I would you

11:05

know, sort of advocating on the side

11:07

of this is a human. This is that

11:09

he time. And there's a part of

11:11

that. While I really. Cared about the

11:13

work. I don't miss. It Sounds like

11:16

you need a sleek Asian right is

11:18

exactly that. Were just have a list

11:20

of a case of we had. A

11:23

Kim Where did this love of

11:26

true crime come from A new?

11:28

It's always been of curiosity of

11:30

mine I always try to figure

11:33

out or try to see if

11:35

I could glean. some clues are

11:37

hints of what creates these people,

11:39

What makes that serial killer? What.

11:42

Nate that person that's like I'm gonna

11:44

take my. Wife. On vacation

11:46

or my spouse and shove him

11:48

off a cliff while I have

11:50

no answers. Haven't found any. Answers

11:53

The quest continues. It's just always

11:55

been something that sort of driven

11:57

me to try to find. And

12:00

I guess in a way make sense of it

12:02

and still I haven't been able to do to

12:04

the success of on the other hand I can

12:06

think of a long rees list of reasons to

12:08

shove a wife off a cliff. All

12:15

that that awkward silence you can. See

12:19

the way she load the dishwasher? Oh My. God.

12:22

I am the dishwasher loader in our household

12:25

as well. right? There are certain things that

12:27

don't go in certain spots. Turn.

12:29

It's obvious I say well he was free

12:31

to do it is he why do it

12:33

I do it twice I do it when

12:35

I do it and I do it when

12:37

she does it up because I want the

12:39

dishes to get clear. hi all alone a

12:41

guy heart see and we talk about like

12:43

you know like are birds and and raising

12:45

a kid on the show and stuff so

12:47

we try to bring some of that frontier

12:49

it for people that would find out from

12:51

of nervous as a part of a glimmer

12:53

that look as done that with every day

12:55

for twenty five years. So what kinds of

12:57

the stories are you telling on publication. Okay

13:00

so I I I say that the stories

13:02

that we do come in three. Three.

13:04

But it's basically. There's.

13:06

You know if been a vacation

13:09

that is planned solely to commit

13:11

a murder? And. To try

13:13

to use the vacation. Like.

13:15

As a cover like it's an accident

13:17

and it's It's like you know, somebody

13:19

murdering their spouse with murdering a friend

13:22

or something like that, where it's a

13:24

premeditated vacation. so leaves for the murder.

13:26

Then there's the other bucket which is

13:28

you go on vacation and you get

13:30

murdered. You know, just one person or

13:33

or both people or whatever. but they

13:35

they get murdered. and then there's like

13:37

a non premeditated murder that happens on

13:39

vacation. Maybe it's the people that go

13:41

on vacation, murder somebody, or maybe something

13:44

else happens and then suddenly. It leads

13:46

to a murder. You also forgot some

13:48

time we don't know what

13:50

happened sometimes. it's mysterious Nine,

13:52

right? Oh but mysterious

13:54

death and was obsessed. With the

13:56

murder component, maybe I should be a little.

13:59

Give us a hand signal if I

14:01

had no right. this is a load.

14:03

The dishwasher correctly that Iran had trouble

14:05

of out of your size of. Women

14:09

The process. Adam: did you identify that there

14:11

were categories or was that sort of a

14:13

known? Been going into it when we first

14:16

were like figuring out the format of the

14:18

shall. We knew that we wanted to both

14:20

be on it. you know, husband and wife

14:22

and and of course we want to Jerry

14:24

as well. And then it's like, you know,

14:26

But if all three of us know the

14:28

case, it's a little less. Fun! It's a

14:31

little less interesting. It was like okay, but

14:33

we also wanted to make sure there were

14:35

enough ceases to do a show. So when

14:37

the initial. Research. We started

14:39

looking up murders that happen on vacation and

14:42

we realize okay there's a lot of ones

14:44

where it's somebody killing their spouse but there's

14:46

also a lot of ones where someone's just

14:49

getting killed or organ of mysterious death. So

14:51

you know what? Let's keep it open your

14:53

the twisty turning one's are that are my

14:55

favorite if if I had say favorite what

14:58

the ones that keep you guessing. The third

15:00

one we did was given Tina Watson and

15:02

it was a scuba diving one end to

15:05

this day I still am not sure whether

15:07

it was a murder. Or just hubris

15:09

leading to an accident. Those are like

15:11

the quintessential. I call those the quintessential

15:13

slackers and you know some of them

15:15

and more straightforward. you know a meeting

15:17

their doom and then what are the

15:19

events that led up to that and

15:21

what does the aftermath? Did they catch

15:23

the person or not and in some

15:25

places blows the lid off of of

15:27

major corruption or major, you know? Ah

15:29

well. There's a whole culture of of

15:31

of violence here that's being swept under

15:33

the rug because they want the tourist

15:35

industry to thrive. and if you. Are.

15:37

saying all this murders here all the time like

15:40

people don't go to so we realize okay miss

15:42

plenty cases then i remove myself from the case

15:44

finding process so that i could be the proxy

15:46

for the listener you mention the i gave and

15:48

tina watson case and that i think was one

15:50

that him and i both had on our lives

15:53

to talk about can you talk about that when

15:55

in a little more detail without giving away too

15:57

much because we do want me to the people

15:59

listen to that episode, but it is a twisty

16:01

turny one. I mean, like I remember

16:03

like when I was telling and

16:06

when Jerry and I was sort of going through

16:08

the events, you know, I was

16:10

like, what, what? And essentially,

16:12

there was there was many different things

16:14

that sort of made this case. You

16:17

know, one of the things was the fact

16:19

that they were a couple,

16:22

they were together, they were married.

16:24

And he was a big, big

16:26

into scuba diving and was very

16:29

interested in having her scuba dive.

16:32

And she was not as interested. I'm

16:34

a knitter, right? It's as if I'm like,

16:36

Adam, you need to learn to knit. This

16:38

is how much of a knitter she is.

16:41

She's literally knitting during this interview. You're

16:43

knitting right now. She's knitting right now. What are

16:46

you knitting? She's a scarf being made. Lovely. That's

16:49

amazing. I

16:51

feel like I'm fiddling with my pens all the

16:53

time. I should be knitting instead. Exactly.

16:56

Exactly. It's a great way

16:58

to channel that ADHD or OCD. But

17:01

the thing is, is that Gabe was very

17:03

interested in having Tina and because she loved

17:05

him, you know, she went, she took some

17:07

scuba lessons. It was clear

17:09

just from the reports and everything that I

17:11

read is she had

17:14

great anxiety about scuba

17:16

diving. It really just wasn't something

17:19

that she was into. Right. And,

17:21

you know, she planned their honeymoon to

17:23

go to the Great Barrier Reef in

17:25

Australia to do a fairly

17:28

advanced dive. Exactly. She

17:30

had no business doing. Yeah. And

17:33

in fact, it was so advanced and

17:35

she was so novice. And inexperienced. That

17:37

he lied to the scuba masters. You

17:39

know, they're supposed to interview people separately,

17:41

couple separately. He made them interview together

17:43

so he could do all the answering

17:45

and basically forced it so that she

17:47

would do this dive and said, don't

17:49

worry. I'm a master diver. I can

17:51

take care of her. So that's where

17:53

like the hubris comes in. And who

17:55

knows? Was it because he was

17:57

really, you know, methodically planning to.

18:00

Do away with his wife Or was

18:02

he just. This. Arrogant jerk

18:04

off that's just was like a

18:06

got it all under control. So

18:08

without doing anything else away let's

18:11

just say to people go diving

18:13

one comes back and three series

18:15

of like a witness thinks they

18:17

see something that could have indicated

18:19

something. There was also a problem

18:22

with the equipments that they thought

18:24

he had. Tampered with pretend it

18:26

turns out he may be didn't and also

18:28

like people's behavior you know plays a huge

18:30

factor. Like you know he went back to

18:32

the surface, hidden and let her down there.

18:35

and yet he saying. He's amassed a diver

18:37

you trying to translate and understand like

18:39

what is it all mean And that's

18:41

the thing too, because they're sort of

18:43

this notion that you behave. In a

18:45

certain way this is what you're supposed

18:47

to do for when deviate from that

18:49

it gives a different impression. Again, people

18:52

are left with all these different impressions

18:54

of has literally had me go back

18:56

up for oh it's a murder. Oh

18:58

it's an accident. Oh it's a murderer.

19:00

Doesn't it ultimately come down to if

19:02

the person took out all life insurance

19:04

policy before the trip Almost always. Get.

19:07

Sick. Not. This case, the.

19:10

Okay, wow. The. Life insurance

19:13

was like minimal and and she had

19:15

a ton of debt that he had

19:17

taken on. Now the other thing yeah

19:19

there was like it didn't fit. slick.

19:21

There have been cases and you know

19:23

we We jokingly say like how long

19:25

after you take out the life insurance

19:27

policy? can you kill someone without it

19:29

looking suspicious? How long do you need

19:31

to wait? What does that not suspicious?

19:33

Time for months? What? What Does it

19:35

for months. Ago.

19:38

Ah feels a little third from what

19:40

I well I took up a life

19:42

insurance policy and him in October of

19:44

one okra you didn't have had on

19:46

I was muted and a half usa

19:48

than a mute. Jerry. And I

19:50

have like on each other So we

19:53

always say let's make sure that the

19:55

company is doing better than the insurance

19:57

for a mutual destruction that does seem

19:59

to be. Kind of a common occurrence in

20:01

some of these cases though. you have? You found

20:03

that. Yeah, I mean

20:05

Embers case? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

20:07

I mean definitely are up

20:09

in our first case, The

20:12

Hawthorns. I mean, he had

20:14

quite an extensive number of

20:16

policies out on his wife.

20:18

It really definitely made him

20:20

look very suspicious because. of

20:22

that fighting gave and seen as

20:24

that that was a missing component,

20:27

no insurance. There was nothing. Certainly

20:29

for him to gain financially from Tills

20:32

wife. Yeah, they were just married for

20:34

like ten days or something. Eleven days

20:36

right there. and then he took on

20:38

her dead after she died. Which

20:41

is the exact opposite of what mostly

20:43

right here with these types of murders.

20:45

It is a head scratcher. I mean

20:47

in your gut. What do you think?

20:49

though? I don't know what he did

20:51

it. But I guess what

20:53

I would say as if I was sitting. On

20:56

a jury. I. Don't know

20:58

that I would be able to say

21:00

he's guilty of murder beyond a reasonable

21:02

doubt. In other words, I

21:04

don't know whether an hour he. Did it. but

21:07

I don't know that the evidence proves.

21:10

That. He definitely did it. But.

21:12

My dad says. A

21:14

I don't. Be

21:19

fooled against the best answer I can get

21:21

there. If I was on a jury I

21:23

would have to say the evidence is not

21:25

there. He's not guilty. Stephanie.

21:28

The longest answer you could do? Yeah. Well,

21:30

that's what I'm good for that. It's too

21:32

bad, I just what does up to confirm

21:34

it? She was twenty six years old. Yeah,

21:36

Yeah. I mean, they were

21:38

college sweethearts. There was any indication

21:40

of abuse prior. The. Only thing that

21:42

sort of stood. Out for me was

21:45

her parents hated him. They.

21:47

Did not like him. I couldn't

21:49

really understand why they didn't like

21:51

and it just felt like they

21:53

didn't think. He was good enough for

21:55

her and Ness a whole other. issue

21:58

i don't know that i sound But anything

22:00

that went on between them

22:02

was unusual or raised any red

22:05

flags. How long were they together before

22:07

they got married, do you remember? I

22:09

think they were together a couple years.

22:11

So was it like, because we have places where

22:13

people get married after like, three days or

22:16

a week. And it's like, Hmm, okay. And

22:18

it turns out they had a huge policy on them.

22:20

You know, yeah, this one was a real head scratcher,

22:22

as Kim said, I know a lot of guys who

22:24

are the people that no, no, no, I got this,

22:26

I got this, don't worry about it. And then when

22:28

shit goes bad, they freak out and

22:30

they can't handle it. And what do you think? Do

22:33

you think? Do you think he's

22:35

guilty? What does your gut say? No.

22:38

No. All right. Yeah.

22:40

He went back to Australia, like they were,

22:43

you know, he was here in the States,

22:45

he got out, there's no extradition to bring

22:47

him back. But he went back on

22:49

his own. That doesn't feel like what a guilty person does.

22:51

Well, to be fair, there

22:53

was murmuring that he

22:56

had made a deal with

22:58

them prior to that return. He

23:00

had made a deal with the authorities

23:02

that like, okay, you're going

23:04

to serve this time and we'll, you know,

23:07

drop it down to this. But still, a

23:09

guilty person might not even make a deal.

23:11

They're just gonna. That's true. Now, right? It

23:14

depends. See, we don't know. We don't

23:16

know. We could go back and forth with this all day long. It's weird that

23:18

he was sitting on a boat and his wife

23:21

was either dying or dead. And

23:23

he's not like overly concerned about

23:26

her well-being. But then maybe he's

23:28

just trying to disconnect and not freaked

23:30

out because how is that going to

23:32

be helpful? We may or may not have given

23:34

away too much. Well,

23:38

I mean, that one seems to definitely sounds like

23:40

one that it would be hard to convict him

23:42

in a court of law. Opinion

23:45

wise, I don't know. It's a

23:47

little bit of a different story.

23:49

It is interesting how, you know,

23:51

the way people act during, after

23:53

police interview, 9-1-1 call, like all

23:55

those things really just play into

23:58

how the public is going to proceed. You.

24:00

And. If you do the wrong thing you

24:02

know in the eyes of the public you

24:05

will be seen as guilty. We just watch

24:07

that you know American Nightmare on Netflix and

24:09

it's like more of the same like they

24:11

didn't behave the right way. So now hold

24:13

on. haven't seen it all. I can it

24:15

this weekend. Oh yeah let's not ruin anything

24:17

they studying and yet I'm sorry. I am

24:19

so sorry. No. No no, no endorsement

24:22

is making me more eager to check

24:24

it out, so I appreciate we got

24:26

yeah We responded in happen on vacation.

24:30

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26:49

Tell us a little bit about this Harold and Tony

26:51

Henthorne case. I know we we've kind of

26:53

talked about it a little bit. This guy

26:55

pushed his wife off of a

26:58

cliff at Rocky Mountain National Park.

27:14

Yeah. He's gone through the weather and

27:16

the wind and things like that. I'm

27:18

he. Often times I feel like they're

27:20

very weird when they're played in a

27:23

true crime podcast of one was very

27:25

suspicious or usually it's like stop asking

27:27

me questions. Get over here. And

27:29

who's doing the opposite is? so they

27:31

met through a Christian dating site. Second

27:33

marriage for the both of them

27:36

I think see in particular was

27:38

very vested in this working out

27:40

and I think she was very

27:42

interested in starting a family and

27:44

just really settling in. That's what

27:46

they did in this case. they

27:48

were number of red flags. One

27:51

red flag was she was. The.

27:53

One that generated the income.

27:55

but he managed to. Take.

27:58

Over and sort of you. unilaterally

28:00

manage their finances. The second

28:02

thing was was that he

28:04

began to start isolating her

28:07

from her family. At one point,

28:10

they moved from their home down

28:12

south and moved to Colorado.

28:15

So that was another thing. He had it

28:17

arranged so that like if she gets a

28:19

call on her cell phone, he also gets

28:21

the call. Weird. So

28:23

he can listen in and surveil. Some might

28:25

say that's a red flag. Yes, yes, yes.

28:28

Some might also say like the last thing

28:30

I would want is to have to listen

28:32

to her calls. There

28:36

is no way. There is no way. Anyway,

28:38

sorry. Tim and I have the same program

28:40

on our cell phones, but it's just strictly

28:43

business. Right, right, right, right, right.

28:45

But that's it. You know, that's the thing though. And

28:47

of course, he was it was

28:50

really just to keep her under

28:53

his thumb and to monitor even

28:55

so what she could share

28:57

about what was really going on

28:59

in their household. They plan say

29:01

an anniversary getaway. Exactly. It's

29:04

12 years of togetherness. He

29:06

reaches out to the office

29:08

manager of her office and

29:10

sets up a time

29:12

when he's basically going to walk in

29:15

and whisk her away to

29:17

their sweet honeymoon

29:19

gala. But of course,

29:22

he comes. He's already packed

29:24

her things. There is no world where

29:27

he would show up and say we're

29:29

going away. And I'd go,

29:31

okay, great, but we need to stop at the

29:33

house first and him go, but I have

29:36

everything that you'll need. That's great. But we

29:38

need this. But that's not what happened here.

29:41

So that's another red flag. Yeah, he packed

29:43

her things, picked her up and they

29:46

went straight to the Stanley Hotel, which

29:48

is the signing the hotel from the

29:50

shining. This is clearly going to end

29:52

badly. Exactly. Then he takes her like

29:55

on a picnic or whatever romantic picnic

29:57

to like the most remote cliff Nobody

30:00

goes to. Yeah, even the Rangers that

30:02

were, you know, part of the investigation

30:04

was like, this is really

30:06

remote. Nobody really comes to

30:09

these parts. Except for him. Except

30:11

for him. And it didn't help his

30:14

case either that they found a map

30:16

in his car with an X marking

30:18

the spot on that weird remote cliff

30:20

area where she wound up being found.

30:22

The point is, yeah, so then yeah,

30:24

she quote unquote fell. And

30:26

then he made the 911 call. And

30:28

rambled on. And then it was

30:31

like, okay, well, there was nobody there,

30:33

no witnesses. But then they started finding

30:35

things. And then also his past was

30:38

just, it was devastating. Red flags. Just

30:40

red. This was a case of red flags

30:42

all around. Like it not even flags,

30:44

just read everything. Just red,

30:47

red rum, red, everything.

30:50

So they had a child together, correct? They did.

30:52

Yes. A little girl from

30:54

what I understand. She

30:56

ended up being raised by

30:58

her maternal uncle and

31:02

his wife, her aunt, and once, you

31:05

know, which I don't disagree once, has cut

31:07

off ties with her father. It's a shit

31:09

show. It's a total shit show. Yeah. I

31:12

mean, this guy is probably, again,

31:14

what you would think of when

31:16

you would think of as a

31:18

sociopath. The quest is what makes

31:21

those people, what is in

31:23

the DNA? I can't relate to

31:25

that. I don't understand it. I mean,

31:27

it does take like a certain type of

31:29

mentality. When you're with somebody over the course

31:31

of a few years and you've developed a

31:34

relationship and then you have a child, if

31:36

you don't want to be in that marriage

31:38

any longer, there's a number of alternatives. A

31:40

number. Before you get to murder. And then

31:43

the murder on vacation is like, you're setting

31:45

this person up to enjoy themselves. It's doubly

31:47

diabolical to do that to somebody. Once you

31:49

figure that out, or if we figure it

31:52

out, like the why behind all that, then

31:54

we'll be right there accepting our Nobel prizes.

31:56

Exactly. I will say the vacation

31:59

aspect does. lend itself though more

32:01

to potentially getting away with it. Right.

32:03

When you're thinking about the perfect crime,

32:06

that's not shooting somebody that's not strangling

32:08

them in your house. It's Oh my god,

32:10

they fell off a cliff. They fell off

32:12

a boat. We were scuba diving and their

32:15

equipment malfunction. The joke I made it's like

32:17

it seems refreshingly doable in a day when

32:19

it's really hard to get away with murder.

32:21

The slakeation seems almost doable. But then it's

32:23

crazy how these evil geniuses also get tripped

32:25

up by things like leaving a map in

32:27

their car with an X with an X.

32:30

It must be ego that gets in the

32:32

way, I guess, at some point, you think

32:34

you're smarter than whoever's investigating. But I think

32:36

you're right in that pushing your wife off

32:39

of a cliff in a remote area that

32:41

no one else is there like he very

32:43

easily could have gotten away with that. Exactly.

32:45

And the crazy thing is, is that

32:48

that's not the only case. I mean, I can think

32:50

of two right off the top of my head where

32:53

a young kid, you know, early 20s, late teens,

32:55

you know, was in love with this girl and

32:57

they had broken up but you know, was like,

32:59

Hey, let's just get together and hang and what

33:01

does he do? He pushes her off a cliff.

33:03

Can we do this case? No. What do we

33:06

do? Because it wasn't a slakeation. It wasn't a

33:08

vacation. It was just like, I'm gonna pick you

33:10

up and we go for a ride. You know,

33:12

I guess that could be but if you know,

33:14

they weren't going away together. They were just hanging

33:16

out. It really is screws up with

33:18

our home life because she wants to talk

33:20

about the case with me. I do. I

33:22

can't. She's calling Jerry at like one in

33:24

the morning to talk about murder. Yeah, that's

33:26

what it's become. We'll be right back after

33:29

a quick word from our sponsor. And

33:33

a thank you to our sponsors back to

33:35

the program. Tell

33:37

us about your most recent episode

33:39

on Shanquella Robinson, really tragic story.

33:42

There's no better way to describe

33:44

it, my friend, because yeah, essentially,

33:46

she had traveled with a

33:50

group of, you know, I

33:52

want to say the word you

33:54

say is friends, but obviously, but

33:56

people that she knew acquaintances and

33:58

apparently one. One of

34:00

the travelers was a really

34:03

good friend of hers, and they

34:05

had obviously all been acquainted with

34:07

each other. And they traveled to

34:09

Mexico, and they had this beautiful villa.

34:12

And then at some point, something

34:14

went wrong. That's

34:16

not clear even what happened. Nobody really

34:19

knows what happened. But what we do

34:21

know is that she is dead. And

34:25

initially, those people on the

34:27

trip with her were

34:30

saying it was alcohol

34:32

poisoning. The autopsy reports

34:34

indicated, particularly the

34:37

autopsy report in the United

34:39

States, it indicated that it

34:42

wasn't alcohol poisoning. It just

34:44

led into all of these

34:46

questions that can't really

34:48

be answered. And then a video

34:50

surfaced of her being

34:53

essentially beaten up by another woman who

34:55

was on that trip with her. We

34:57

don't know why. We don't know what

35:00

happened. We don't know what happened before,

35:02

where that even came from. That's

35:05

the thing. Nobody's talking. Right.

35:07

So someone released this video purposefully,

35:10

you would think. It's never been

35:12

stated who that was on the

35:14

trip, who released it, or why?

35:16

Nope. Who released the

35:19

video? How weird. Yeah. The

35:21

person in the video that's beating her down is somebody,

35:24

of course, that she was there with. But

35:26

even so, there are fights happen. So

35:28

it doesn't necessarily have to be fatal.

35:32

And then her friend, her good

35:34

friend, is there. You don't

35:36

see him on the video, but you hear him. Right. You

35:39

hear him in the – and he – He's certainly not helping. No, no,

35:41

no. In fact, I think he makes a comment like,

35:43

you're not going to fight back. And then,

35:45

yeah, the initial autopsy done

35:47

in Mexico was not very well

35:49

done. It wasn't

35:52

very clear. It didn't

35:54

help with identifying any

35:56

real answers for that

35:59

family. She was beaten

36:01

up and it was not in

36:03

line with what her

36:06

alleged friends had told

36:08

authorities. What about her background? She

36:10

was 25? I

36:13

mean, she apparently was, had a

36:15

real entrepreneurial spirit. She would braid

36:17

hair. She was known for that,

36:20

particularly kids. She had a clothesline

36:22

that she also was doing

36:24

some designing. I mean, she was

36:27

pretty amazing. Pretty amazing. I

36:30

think that's what gets me every time with these

36:32

stories is that you just see somebody who's 25 years

36:35

old with all this potential. And then there's

36:37

one incident that happens that no one has

36:39

answers to, but now that person is not

36:41

around. And whatever they were going to offer

36:43

the world is not going to be a thing. I

36:46

know, obviously, you both combat this

36:48

with a sense of humor. Is

36:51

that like your main go-to when you

36:53

start really digging into these people's stories

36:55

and start feeling like, wow, I'm

36:57

getting a little down. Because

36:59

it was really shown sort of the dark side

37:01

of humanity. Is the sense of humor the first

37:04

thing that you go to? What's interesting is like

37:06

we almost always start and whether it's like happens

37:08

before we start rolling or not, but like Jerry

37:10

and Kim will look at each other and like

37:12

sigh and be like, oh boy, this one. What

37:15

a mess. And they, you know, so they

37:18

know and I'm just like, okay, what's coming?

37:20

And then, you know, they start telling the

37:22

story and in the part before them, you

37:24

know, leading up to the bad stuff. I

37:27

can make jokes and try to be

37:29

funny and whatever. And then they get

37:31

into the shit and it's just like,

37:33

oh my God. And I'm just hearing

37:36

the most horrible, depraved, awful things that

37:38

people do to each other. You know,

37:40

sometimes I blurt out something highly inappropriate.

37:44

Well, maybe highly inappropriate or just like, you know,

37:46

I blurt out something awful, but nowhere near as

37:48

awful as the thing we just heard. That is

37:51

correct. And so in a way, it's real time

37:53

reaction. It's like, you know, it's like you hear

37:55

something awful. You just like, oh, fuck me. What

37:57

the hell, man? Holy. Sure

38:00

what the fuck you do for you know in

38:02

and get in and look for cursing and you

38:04

start getting angry and then combat that you don't want

38:06

to have a show of people being anger season so

38:08

he try to find a way to cut through that

38:11

with a little joke here or there and a lot

38:13

of his timing to I took him to the

38:15

you know tell the story of i have to

38:17

like interrupt her with. A. Joker you know

38:19

a comments and I'm like unfortunately

38:21

the timing is everything and a.

38:23

Joke. Isn't gonna tell itself? So

38:28

I are. You know I'll break the joke but

38:30

I have to like way like is the joke

38:32

worth it or not or whatever. So anyway, the

38:34

point is, I guess I I definitely combat it

38:37

with humor or else I'm just going to be

38:39

angry. You. Know weird humans to we have

38:41

a kid we you know it's like we don't be

38:43

case you do those. it's like. You

38:46

know it's like shit happens and and

38:48

really dark officer for yeah I try

38:50

to you know add some humor to

38:52

at and for me. A lot of

38:54

it is. You. Know Injustice

38:56

Quest is. Understanding There's

38:59

also this quest of.

39:01

What? Can we were and. We talk

39:04

about this. What can be the take

39:06

away? What can we learn? What? How

39:08

can we. Protect ourselves. How.

39:11

Can we be more aware

39:13

of of our surroundings and

39:15

particularly. In this case, the thing that was so. Upsetting

39:18

about it was that there

39:20

was every reason for. And you

39:22

I would be if I was traveling with his or. Her:

39:24

you know who of people that

39:26

I live and one of my

39:29

closest very best friends. With.

39:31

Their there would be no reason for

39:33

her to have felt like she was

39:35

in any jeopardy. I mean her best.

39:38

Friend was there with this person

39:40

that she had vacation with. Not

39:42

only just her in hand with

39:44

her whole family knew this person.

39:47

You're not thinking but it almost

39:49

makes you realize that you can

39:51

never truly let your guard down

39:53

and I think like that again

39:55

when I go to like what

39:57

we. Learn. What?

40:00

we do so that these people that

40:02

have gone, what would they say to

40:04

us if they were advising us, well,

40:06

this is what we should have done,

40:08

we didn't. So that's how I try

40:11

to come at it when I'm taking in and

40:13

consuming all this craziness. At the same time, you

40:15

don't want to blame the victim, you know, you

40:17

don't want to say that they did something to

40:19

bring it on. So right, but the thing is,

40:22

is that it's not blaming the victim,

40:24

they did nothing wrong, but live their

40:26

lives. It makes you realize that you

40:28

have to look out for the predators,

40:30

sort of understand that you almost have

40:32

to look at people as predators until

40:35

they prove that they're not, instead

40:37

of the other way around. That's what you should

40:40

try. Yeah, you have to

40:42

be aware of those red flags and

40:44

they come seriously when they present themselves.

40:46

But yeah, in Chankwella's case, it doesn't

40:48

seem like... Yeah, that's the thing

40:50

that's so frustrating about her. Yeah. Again,

40:53

there was a couple of birthdays in

40:55

that group, they were going to a

40:57

fancy villa, and it was

40:59

just supposed to be hanging out, having

41:01

fun, getting their drink on, and

41:03

just, you know, living their best 20-something

41:06

lives. It is a mystery, really,

41:09

like what set all of this up.

41:11

When the reality is, is that no

41:13

matter what it was, there was no

41:15

excuse for what was done

41:17

there. Yeah, it doesn't seem premeditated,

41:19

but it seems like the international

41:21

jurisdictions might have prevented the case

41:24

from being solved. Do you guys

41:26

feel that way? I feel that

41:28

they dropped the ball. You know,

41:30

the second that she was pronounced

41:32

deceased, they should have all been

41:36

questioned, and that did not happen. And

41:38

in fact, what they did was just

41:41

say, we're going to just head out, get a bite to eat,

41:43

and they got on a plane and went back to the US.

41:46

Like, that should not have been allowed

41:48

to happen. And then once you're now

41:50

dealing with, you know, jurisdictions

41:53

between nations, it becomes more complicated. Yeah,

41:55

you know what, in a way, this

41:57

is different than a lot of our...

42:00

Locations where the person takes someone on

42:02

a vacation in an isolate sums from

42:04

everybody else and then potentially does it

42:06

er doesn't do. In this case, you

42:08

had a whole bunch of people that

42:10

were around when potentially the violence happened.

42:13

And yeah they were allowed to leave

42:15

by a nobody was question. This gets

42:17

like more depressing than you think about

42:19

how you you just had like. This

42:21

was not an isolated incident as wasn't

42:23

done in a area where it was

42:25

rare to see people like this. Poor.

42:28

Human beings getting beaten. Yeah, merely

42:30

a known steps him. Nobody.

42:32

Will ever know to proud read his

42:34

There is not something in or saying

42:37

whoa woah woah what it would he

42:39

wouldn't Going on here is no for

42:41

sort of a clear if that fight

42:43

is the cause of death. you know

42:46

one of the autopsy reports they couldn't

42:48

conclusively say that her cause of death

42:50

was from the beating she could have

42:52

aspirated. but what it sounded like was

42:55

that it was the perfect storm of

42:57

everything that created that out them thinking

42:59

that had she not been beaten like

43:01

that she probably. Would still be alive

43:03

Yes, regardless of what the actual cause

43:06

that was. Yeah, you're right, it is

43:08

the perfect Storm. Yeah, that's a very

43:10

depressing and very difficult case. Like you,

43:12

you go off the board a plane,

43:14

you just phone a part of the

43:16

some friends that video releases. Still like

43:18

the strangest thing about it because it's

43:21

just like why is that release and

43:23

who really. Yeah. And

43:25

it obviously with someone their, well, what else

43:27

is coming up on Sli casing? Can you

43:29

give us a tease for any upcoming episodes?

43:33

Amulet. You do that. Well.

43:36

Ah, we definitely have a case that

43:38

takes place on Murder Islands in Thailand

43:41

to tell which is dubbed Murder Islands.

43:43

I mean you know their they all.

43:45

they all suck, their own grizzly, that

43:48

crazy whatever. But I'm in this case.

43:50

The. Kind of blows the lid

43:52

off of a culture of

43:54

violence. And. Mob like. And

43:57

by mob I mean like mafia

43:59

like rulers. This island and and cover

44:01

ups and stuff like that, that's a

44:03

really interesting one. We've got a couple

44:05

of two parties where it's like the

44:08

so much fucked up that we couldn't

44:10

even cover for a So why We

44:12

have like two episodes like. The yeah

44:14

when it involves just a couple

44:16

of. College. Kids to

44:19

saying hey. We're. Done with

44:21

school. Let's. Take the

44:23

kids have a life time before we get serious

44:25

and have to do real jobs And you know

44:27

stuff like that? Yeah that one. the more you

44:30

dig, the more you find and you're like oh

44:32

my god an average of the more confused you

44:34

Ah yes, that's true. Then. We got

44:36

to sort of under these women a

44:38

scape, abuse and then need somebody even

44:40

worse than the abuser that the not

44:43

to broader. It's like yes yeah we

44:45

got. Time As Clancy, there's plenty.

44:47

Yeah. Yeah. Apparently. They.

44:50

Are unfortunately there's plenty so should I be

44:52

worried that him to send me a ticket

44:54

to murder Island for a little getting way

44:56

you like he was like we we need

44:58

some aren't are. I.

45:02

I would be worried. I would. Are

45:05

the women Ah as it. I

45:08

I guess we're taking scuba lessons

45:10

powered. By.

45:12

Buying all these maps. What

45:16

I mean. It's

45:19

is the spot where you way it's a beautiful

45:21

waterfall at all. the beautiful view for see how

45:23

that a group of making jokes though like that's

45:25

the thing it's like we hear all this awful

45:27

were like and his place we have to lift

45:29

ourselves back up. And that, yeah,

45:31

that's kind of what we do. It's

45:33

like you have to build backup or

45:36

else you just let it crushes. I

45:38

feel like their power of humor and

45:40

laughter is often looked upon and with

45:42

an unfavorable light. unfairly. But you know

45:44

you have to laugh at it that

45:46

you can keep going and telling the

45:49

stories. So. that those stories don't

45:51

die because the people don't exist

45:53

anymore but some injustice happened so

45:55

if that's what keeps you going

45:57

it's not disrespectful it's therapeutic well

45:59

Yeah, that was nice. Yeah,

46:02

thank you so much for joining us here today. Well, thank you for

46:04

having us. Thank

46:06

you. Thank you for having us. I'm upset it's

46:08

over. I was looking down and it was like, we're at 50 minutes

46:10

and I was thinking, oh my goodness, I just flew by. I

46:13

know. Yeah, right. Do

46:15

you two have any plans for a vacation coming up

46:17

soon? No way. Are you kidding? The

46:20

two of us, yeah, we're

46:22

going to get separate rooms.

46:25

We're going to have bodyguards.

46:29

I mean, it is funny because there's

46:31

so many things like, oh, you know,

46:33

Gabe got his novice scuba diver. She

46:35

took like three lessons in a pool and now,

46:37

well, we're going to go down to the shipwreck

46:40

that's like way down there. And I'm like, I

46:42

can't even get him to come see me play

46:44

hockey. I can't, you know, she's not doing that.

46:46

She's not, you know, that's part of the takeaway,

46:48

I guess. Don't do things that you're, you

46:51

know, that make you really uncomfortable as far

46:53

as us going on vacation. I mean, we're

46:55

pretty on guard as it is. So, you

46:57

know, yeah, we are. I'm

47:00

fully expecting Kim to hold up like the four

47:03

sweaters that she just knitted. She

47:05

knitted a red flag. She

47:08

literally knitted a red flag. This

47:10

is a sign. Exactly. Look out for

47:12

the red flag. Amazing. And they're on

47:14

film. Somebody asked you for it.

47:18

Well, Kim and Adam, thank you

47:20

so much for joining us today. Thank you, guys.

47:22

You guys are great. It's been fun, yeah. Thank

47:24

you. And stay safe

47:26

out there. She

47:55

just added more lines to her Cox mobile

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plan and saved, making her feel... Exquisite.

48:01

Visit a COC store today.