0:00

Music Welcome

0:28

to Crawl Space. I'm Tim here today

0:30

with Lance. Lance, how are you today?

0:32

I'm doing fantastic today, Tim. It is

0:34

always a pleasure to introduce friends of

0:36

ours who have joined the show numerous

0:38

times because they work on such amazing

0:40

projects and we want to make sure

0:42

that our listeners can experience their amazing

0:44

projects. And one thing that our listeners

0:46

have not experienced yet, Tim, bless you,

0:48

you just sneezed, one thing they have

0:50

not experienced yet is your mood, which

0:52

we need to get that out of

0:54

the way ASAP. I'm doing well, thank

0:56

you. And I was just blessed, so

0:59

I'm even better now. Yeah, I'm

1:01

really excited to introduce this conversation.

1:03

We spoke with our old friend

1:05

at this point, Casey Sherman, who

1:07

is an amazing author. He's written

1:09

some fantastic books. We've interviewed him,

1:12

I want to say, at least

1:14

three or four times now. Once

1:16

on Empty Frames, our podcast about

1:18

art crime. And he brings it

1:20

again with this interview. It's about

1:22

his newest book that is available

1:24

to purchase as of February 13th,

1:27

2024. It's called A Murder in

1:29

Hollywood, the untold story of

1:31

Tinseltown's most shocking crime. And

1:33

it's a really wild story.

1:35

It's about Hollywood starlet Lana

1:37

Turner and her boyfriend, mobster

1:39

Johnny Stompanado, who was found

1:41

dead on her bedroom floor.

1:43

This is really the beginning

1:45

stages of an early Me

1:47

Too movement. This is also

1:49

pulling the curtain back on

1:52

the abuse that these stars and starlets went

1:54

through that they endured in the 30s, 40s

1:56

and 50s in Hollywood and the corruption. So It's a

1:58

really good idea to do that. The Glimpse

2:00

into the dark underbelly of Tinseltown and

2:02

it's getting great reviews. By the way,

2:04

I don't know if you've checked other

2:06

reviews is getting great reviews. Casey himself

2:08

narrates the audio version, so if you

2:10

want to get that story with that

2:12

Casey sermon vocal effect, I think people

2:14

will enjoy that. Well, of course it's

2:17

getting great reviews. Lancets Casey Sermon were

2:19

talking about here. He is a i

2:21

want of a kind author actually and

2:23

and several of his books have been

2:25

made into movies too and I think

2:27

he spoke about this one being made

2:29

into a Tv. Series potentially so we

2:31

wish him the best of luck with

2:33

that. Go check out Murder in Hollywood.

2:35

you'll definitely dig and Tim people will

2:38

definitely dig listening to this episode with

2:40

out the commercials but they might not

2:42

know where to go to get this.

2:44

Could you please enlighten us? Your are

2:46

good listeners can now find Crawl Space

2:49

Premium on Apple podcasts. You can subscribe

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right there in the podcast app but

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for ninety nine a month you get

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ad free episodes, early releases and are

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bonus show that everybody loves so make

3:06

sure that set that I were going

3:08

to break real quick for a commercial

3:10

and be will be right back with

3:13

renowned author. Mr. Casey

3:15

Sherman. Hi,

3:28

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Add life to cart. Thanks to our

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sponsors and now we're back to the program. Welcome

4:59

back to the podcast. Author Casey Sherman, how

5:01

are you today? Hey, good to you gentlemen.

5:03

Thanks for having me back. Oh, you're always

5:05

welcome on the show because you always have

5:08

these stories that you're telling you're a prolific

5:10

writer. So there's always a book that is

5:12

in the works or about to be released

5:14

in the next few weeks. We

5:17

just love the way you put those stories

5:19

together but you finally today have given me

5:21

the opportunity to live a dream and introduce

5:23

a guest from the car like they do

5:25

in space. It's sports talk radio. So joining

5:27

us now is Casey from the car.

5:29

I appreciate it guys and I'm calling from

5:31

the car because I'm out in the field

5:34

today. I'm working on a case of a

5:36

wrongfully convicted killer, so to speak in Massachusetts.

5:38

So I'm just doing some gumshoeing and then

5:40

I had to pull over and speak to

5:43

you guys. Very cool. Wow.

5:46

Okay. Is that for a future

5:48

book? It's for a magazine piece that I'm working

5:50

on for Boston magazine and potentially a book as

5:52

well. It's a wild story. I'm just dipping my

5:55

toes into it now. Hopefully it'll

5:57

be a great yarn like the rest

5:59

of the book. my books. Yes, and

6:01

they sure are. You said

6:03

that right. Your latest book, A

6:05

Murder in Hollywood, the untold story

6:08

of Tinseltown's most shocking crime, is

6:10

another example of just great writing

6:12

and compelling stories. My first question

6:14

is, do you ever stop writing?

6:16

No, if I'm not physically writing,

6:18

I'm writing in my head or

6:20

I'm out in the field looking

6:22

for my next project. So again,

6:25

the writing is the thing for

6:27

me. That's what really gets my

6:29

juices flowing. So I'm already thinking

6:31

about not only the next book,

6:33

but the next three to four

6:35

projects that I might want to

6:37

lend my voice to. Well, this topic,

6:40

Tim introduced the book, A Murder

6:42

in Hollywood. It covers an area that I am

6:44

so fascinated with, which is the dark side of

6:46

old tiny Hollywood and those stories that you don't

6:48

hear in the main media. Like you got to

6:50

dig a little bit for it. But before we

6:52

get to that, can you let our listeners know

6:54

how the new year is treating you? I mean,

6:56

you're super busy, but how's it going? How's it

6:58

going so far in 2024? Yeah, 2024 has been

7:00

pretty interesting already.

7:03

I'm just about to go on a

7:05

national book tour for A Murder in

7:07

Hollywood. I've just completed my 17th book,

7:09

which will be out next year, which

7:11

focuses on the Nathan Carmen case,

7:13

which was a wild murder case on

7:16

the high seas 2016 here in New England.

7:18

And that's a story that came out a

7:20

lot differently than I had expected it to,

7:23

which is always great for me. I love

7:25

to get my head turned around when I

7:27

jump into a project. And I think I'm

7:29

going to go into one direction and the

7:31

evidence and the information pulls me into the

7:33

complete opposite direction of where I thought I

7:35

was going. Wow, very cool. Well, definitely can't

7:37

wait to read that one. And it was

7:39

great to finally get to meet you this

7:41

year at CrimeCon. Yeah, no, that

7:43

was a unique experience for me.

7:45

I mean, writers, we live kind of a

7:48

solitary life. So the opportunity to get out

7:50

there and talk to, you know,

7:52

true crime fans, people that really

7:54

love to read about investigations and kind of a,

7:56

you know, the dark side of life was really

7:58

interesting for me. Me. I'm excited

8:00

that I'll be back at Trump! Gone in

8:03

Nashville this coming May so I'll continue to

8:05

have you don't visit if I can and

8:07

I just really give a shoutout to your

8:09

publishing company, The Source Books and Madeline who

8:11

always reaches out to us for your books

8:13

to make sure that you know you're getting

8:15

the publicity that you deserve. But that's an

8:18

impressive company that used connected yourself with Get

8:20

On It! I've worked with a lot of

8:22

different publishers and all the biggest publishers in

8:24

the world and you know what? I partnered

8:26

with The Source Books for Fell Down. It

8:28

was just a perfect. Marriage and I

8:31

want to stay with his publisher or

8:33

hopefully for the rest my career because

8:35

they are true partners and not only

8:37

the creation of the idea but also

8:39

you know making sure that a lot

8:41

of people have knowledge of this book

8:43

being out and the stories that I

8:45

cover. How did you find this story?

8:47

One of my favorite films of all

8:49

time is L A Confidential. Some I'm

8:51

a sucker for those of all time

8:53

Hollywood stories that film the war era

8:55

are in most filmmaking and publishing. The

8:57

Raymond Chandler's of the World's why I

8:59

was. Looking dylan my voice. Somewhere

9:02

into that whole world. In

9:04

My agents Peter Steinberg at the

9:06

United Talent Agency T have. Sent.

9:09

Me this, it'll just a little blurb about the

9:11

Lana Turner to has grown up. I know about

9:13

it a little bit. Mom. I thought

9:15

I knew what I knew what she said

9:17

like you know your publisher wants a big

9:19

story from U L time of the biggest

9:21

story so this might be a crime that

9:23

was Oprah. Look you know, Especially you know

9:25

that the later decades. It was certainly

9:28

sensational. When an app and the first spent

9:30

forgotten by history send you bring something new

9:32

to the conversation and I said give me

9:34

a week a lot me see if I

9:36

can start to dig in here and I

9:39

began to collect all the primary source documents

9:41

read up on every news article can assess

9:43

talk to see how not always rise of

9:45

organized crime or states but the rise of

9:47

of Hollywood back in the golden era or

9:50

was shaped as well and I thought you

9:52

get to industries basically on a collision course

9:54

the studio industry of Hollywood and organized crime

9:56

with Bugsy Siegel. Mickey Cohen and

9:58

others all work. and competing

10:01

with each other in a very small town, which was

10:03

Hollywood back in the 30s, 40s and 50s. Yeah,

10:06

it's really fascinating and incredible to see how

10:08

those two worlds come together. And when you

10:10

hear the name Lana Turner, you don't think

10:12

organized crime. I mean, that's the last thing

10:14

that you'd think of just as a regular

10:16

person who's a fan of movies, you typically

10:18

don't think about organized crime. But what is

10:20

the premise of this? Let our listeners know

10:22

like, what does Lana Turner have in connection

10:25

to organized crime? Yeah, so, you know, from

10:27

a 30,000 foot view guys, imagine

10:29

that Margot Robbie or

10:32

Jennifer Lawrence woke up one

10:34

day to find a dead gangster on the

10:36

bedroom floor of her Beverly Hills mansion. That's

10:38

basically the story in a nutshell, how

10:40

Hollywood's biggest star at the time, Lana

10:43

Turner, you know, some people don't remember

10:45

her, but she was Marilyn Monroe before

10:47

Marilyn. In fact, Marilyn had basically

10:49

stolen her entire identity, if you

10:51

will, from Lana Turner. She was

10:53

Lana's biggest fan. So Lana is

10:55

the biggest thing in Hollywood for

10:57

decades, but she's starting to age

10:59

up. She's getting into her late 30s and

11:01

she's not being offered those glamor roles

11:03

that she was once offered as

11:05

the ingenue or the most beautiful actress

11:08

in Hollywood. And she's gone

11:10

through a series of very violent and

11:12

abusive relationships with men whom she later

11:14

married. You know, Lana Turner had several

11:16

marriages during the course of her life.

11:19

And then, you know, out of the blue, a

11:22

gangster named Johnny Stappanado begins

11:24

to send her flowers and

11:27

begins to send her candy and begins to

11:29

send her all of these gifts in

11:31

hopes of seducing Lana Turner. Now, Lana

11:33

Turner had no shortage of, you know,

11:35

male admirers, but there was something unique

11:37

about Johnny, something that, you know, obviously

11:40

she didn't know. Johnny was a tough

11:42

guy. She didn't know that Johnny was

11:44

the right-hand man of basically the godfather

11:46

of Los Angeles at the time, Mickey

11:48

Cohen, and Mickey Cohen and Johnny Stappanado.

11:50

They didn't look at Lana Turner as

11:52

a love interest for Johnny. They looked

11:54

at Lana Turner as a mark, as

11:56

a target, as somebody that they could

11:58

exploit and ext... The work put into

12:01

compromising positions and then bleed or for

12:03

also was worth financially and that's that's

12:05

what they try to do on our

12:07

course of well over a year until

12:09

Lana Turner decided to take your life

12:12

back. Can you tell us a little

12:14

bit about Liners? Rise to fame in

12:16

the film business was it? It's one

12:18

of the most iconic stories get all

12:20

of Hollywood history. It was Lana Turner

12:22

who was sitting on a stall at

12:25

an ice cream found in Hollywood when

12:27

she was fifteen years old. When she

12:29

was ultimately discovered. By a Hollywood

12:31

talent agent. Now that story has

12:33

become part of Hollywood's. Legacy because

12:35

once Lana Turner was discovered and

12:37

put on the big screen, thousands

12:39

of young women across. The United

12:42

States cobbled together. Or bus fare

12:44

and train fare. and they all travel

12:46

to Hollywood because they wanted to be

12:48

discovered like Lana Turner was so lot.

12:50

Of was discovered when she was fifteen years old

12:52

and she was originally got the. Sweater Girl

12:54

because you know even when she

12:56

was under age he them sexualized

12:59

by brewster of still putting. Her

13:01

in there said close putting our into compromising

13:03

positions on screen including the scope of screen

13:05

siren for this you know on your age

13:07

teen it and one of the things that

13:10

I thought was interesting guys when I was

13:12

researching now you know I I wrote I

13:14

read a lot about of organized crime in

13:16

the book but I really want to do

13:19

what we can a lift the veil for

13:21

of the Hollywood system and show you what

13:23

that was like back in the thirties and

13:25

forties or mean we're dealing with follow of.

13:28

Of that culture. Now you know with

13:30

Harvey Weinstein aims and with the meteor

13:32

to all of that goes way back

13:34

you know to the revealing moments in

13:36

Hollywood where you've had these young stars

13:39

who were victimized, the brutalized by the

13:41

studio. A lot of talk on I

13:43

came up with usually girl. Dorothy

13:45

from was it a Boss and

13:48

they were being forced by the

13:50

studios towards seventy hour work weeks

13:52

to support their family friendly studio

13:54

films. Meanwhile, these kids are exhausted.

13:56

These kids are being put on

13:59

amphetamine drugs. They're given a diet of

14:01

chicken broth and cigarettes to keep going

14:03

and keep their figures. So they're being

14:05

destroyed from within, you know, very early

14:07

on in their careers. Yeah, that's a

14:09

really remarkable part of the story because

14:11

when you hear in today's worldview, the

14:13

Me Too movement is typically considered something

14:15

that happened around like 2015, 2016,

14:19

you know, in that three or five

14:21

years around that time period. But this

14:23

is something that really, really goes far

14:25

beyond that. This started decades and decades

14:27

earlier. How was Lana Turner a pioneer

14:29

in that movement? Yeah, well, I mean,

14:31

that's a great question. You know, she originally

14:33

didn't think of herself as a pioneer in

14:35

that movement, but, you know, she was subject

14:37

and victimized, you know, by the studios who,

14:40

again, when she was 15 and 16 years

14:42

old, they would use her as arm candy

14:44

for their leading men on the red carpet

14:46

of Hollywood, you know, with the pre-presidential Ronald

14:48

Reagan, who was in his late 20s, early

14:50

30s, was walking around with a 15-year-old Lana

14:53

Turner on his arm in Hollywood. And nobody

14:55

added an eye to what male

14:57

actors were doing. But every female

15:00

actor in Hollywood had a morality clause.

15:02

The reason why Lana was married so often

15:04

is because she could not just have a

15:07

boyfriend or she could not squire up, you

15:09

know, an actor around town if she fell

15:11

in love with somebody. She had

15:13

to marry that person in order to

15:15

be seen with them. And oftentimes those

15:17

relationships turn very dark. And I think

15:19

Lana was always drawn to dark

15:21

men in her life because her

15:24

father was the victim of an unsolved

15:26

murder in the 1930s in San Francisco.

15:30

And he was a small-time gambler who got

15:32

in with the wrong crowd and ended up

15:34

being beaten to death on the

15:36

streets of San Francisco. And Lana grew up

15:38

without a real strong male person in her

15:40

life. And I think that's

15:42

why she was, again, driven to these

15:45

dark figures. And once she got into

15:47

these relationships, the only way out for

15:49

her at that time was to divorce these men.

15:52

And that's after they had beaten

15:54

her physically, roughed her up emotionally,

15:56

and basically stole every penny that

15:58

she had. That

16:01

is so sad. And then how did

16:03

she get involved with Stompanado? Again,

16:05

another dark character enters her

16:08

life and she just thinks

16:10

that he's fallen in love with her. He

16:12

doesn't know that she's an extortion victim and

16:15

that all the money that Johnny Stompanado is

16:17

spending on Lana Turner comes from Mickey Cohen,

16:19

the gang boss of LA. And

16:22

again, they're using that to lure

16:24

Lana Turner into these compromising positions

16:26

and drugging her, putting her in

16:28

bed with a young woman filming

16:30

her and then selling that footage

16:33

back to Lana Turner for millions

16:35

of dollars. That's what Johnny Stompanado's

16:37

mission originally was when he started

16:39

to seduce Lana. But over the course

16:41

of their relationship, Johnny Stompanado almost looks

16:44

at himself like that character

16:46

of Philip Palmer in Dead Shore, the

16:48

gangster who becomes a movie producer. He sees

16:50

the success that Lana's having and he wants

16:52

to get away from the leg breaking of

16:55

Mickey Cohen and his goons. And

16:57

he feels like he can become a major

17:00

player in Hollywood. And as

17:02

he's doing that, he's subjecting

17:04

Lana Turner to mental

17:07

and physical abuse. And Lana at the

17:09

time, which is really interesting, she had

17:11

started her own production company in Hollywood,

17:13

which is something no actress did in

17:15

the 1950s. So she's

17:17

a pioneer there where nobody

17:19

else was doing it. She wants to really

17:22

gain control of her own career and

17:24

she's doing so and she realizes the only

17:26

way I could be a success is if

17:28

I cut ties with

17:31

Johnny Stompanado, who she now realizes

17:34

is a very violent and

17:36

deadly gangster. And when

17:38

she tries to break it off with Johnny, Johnny

17:40

not only beats her and he's done that

17:43

a number of different times, but he threatens to kill

17:45

her and then he threatens to kill

17:48

Lana's teenage daughter and

17:50

Lana's mother. And I think

17:52

at that moment, something shifted Lana's brain. She

17:54

realized the only way to get rid of

17:56

Johnny was to take him off the

17:58

map as a rival guy. gangster would. So

18:01

she killed him in the bedroom of

18:03

her Beverly Hills mansion. You know, you'd

18:05

said imagine one of the stars today

18:07

waking up with a dead gangster in

18:09

their bed. How did this happen? How

18:11

did it come to pass that Stompanado

18:13

ends up dead in her mansion?

18:15

Well, a couple of weeks before the murder,

18:18

Lana Turner is nominated for Best

18:20

Supporting Actress at the Oscars. And

18:23

she will not allow Johnny Stompanado

18:25

to escort her to the Academy

18:27

Awards. And so then she brings her

18:29

mother and her young daughter and they have the time

18:31

of their lives. You know, the career high point for

18:34

Lana Turner. He doesn't win the

18:36

award, but she felt like she

18:38

finally, you know, gotten the recognition

18:40

of her peers in Hollywood. And

18:43

at the end of the night, walking into

18:45

her rented bungalow in Beverly Hills and putting

18:47

her daughter to bed, she opens her bedroom

18:49

door, and she sees a lit cigarette in

18:51

the corner. It's a dark

18:54

room, but she knows Johnny Stompanado

18:56

is there. And Johnny Stompanado is

18:58

enraged. He can't believe that Lana

19:00

has embarrassed him by not

19:02

allowing him to be her date at

19:04

the Oscars. So on the greatest night

19:06

of Lana's life, Johnny beats

19:08

her within an inch of

19:11

life while her young daughter is hearing

19:13

the screaming and the abuse from the

19:15

room next door. Cheryl Crane almost called

19:17

the police and she didn't. So

19:20

the next day Lana is cleaning up her

19:22

bruises, covering them up with a pound of

19:24

make-up, and then she realizes, I've got to

19:27

kill them. And as

19:29

she's buying things for the household,

19:31

pots, pans, she buys an eight-inch

19:34

serrated knife. One

19:36

that really you wouldn't use to cut

19:38

chicken breasts or to cut vegetables. She

19:40

realized that this would be the murder

19:42

weapon that she would ultimately have to

19:44

use against Johnny because Johnny would turn

19:46

violent against her. Again, it was part

19:48

of their relationship. So

19:50

he was going to beat her and

19:52

the next time that happened she was

19:54

going to take her life and her

19:56

daughter's life into her own hands and

19:58

kill Johnny when he's dead. when

20:00

he was close to her. And that's what

20:02

she did. Now, as Johnny is lying

20:04

dead on the rug of her Beverly Hills,

20:07

mid-anchion, she calls a doctor and

20:09

then she calls her lawyer, an

20:11

attorney named Jerry Giesler. Now, you

20:13

guys remember Johnny Cochran and his

20:15

representation of O.J. Simpson. Jerry Giesler

20:18

was the Johnny Cochran of the

20:21

1950s. He was the ultimate fixer. Every

20:23

celebrity who got in trouble hired Jerry

20:25

Giesler. You know, Johnny Cochran was actually

20:27

the Jerry Giesler of the 1990s and

20:29

2000s, quite frankly. So this guy shows

20:33

up at the Beverly Hills mansion and

20:35

sizes up the situation. You've got

20:37

a young man, 35 years old, dead

20:40

or 33 years old, dead on a carpet.

20:43

You've got a bloody knife and you've

20:45

got Lana Turner. So there's no doubt

20:47

that Lana Turner would have been arrested

20:49

for first degree homicide. You know, they

20:51

call police right away. So

20:54

Jerry starts to think, all right,

20:56

so she's arrested for first degree

20:58

murder. There's a likelihood that an all-male jury

21:00

is going to convict her. There's also a likelihood

21:03

that she's going to be put to death because

21:05

the death penalty in the gas chamber were certainly

21:07

in use in 1958 in California. Well,

21:10

what if we put the knife

21:13

in Lana's daughter's hands? Cheryl Crane,

21:15

Lana's daughter, is 14 years

21:18

old. Now, if the

21:20

daughter had wielded the knife and not

21:22

Lana, there's a likelihood that it

21:24

would be called justifiable homicide because

21:27

everybody, including an all-male jury, would

21:29

have some empathy and sympathy for

21:31

a young girl. That kind

21:33

of sympathy was not available for Lana

21:35

Turner. And that's, I think, what happened, which

21:39

really dictated the rest of this crazy,

21:41

crazy story. And we'll be right back

21:43

after a quick word from our sponsors.

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22:56

It actually was the knife that Lana Turner

22:58

had purchased, the serrated knife that was the

23:00

murder weapon. That's correct. And how did they

23:02

sort of weave the story to work Cheryl

23:05

into it? You know, it was, I mean,

23:07

kind of blind, blind allegiance from a lot

23:09

of the prosecutors and police officers at the

23:11

time. And they listened to Jerry Gieslitt. They

23:14

how Cheryl was woven into the story was

23:16

that, you know, Gieslitt put the knife in

23:18

her, her hands and said that Cheryl had

23:21

broken up a very violent struggle between

23:23

Johnny and her mother and she was

23:25

protecting her and saving her mother's life.

23:27

Therefore jumped in and tried to stop

23:29

the fight and the knife was used.

23:31

Nobody in Hollywood believed that was the

23:33

case at all. Not Johnny Stompinato's boss,

23:35

Mickey Cohen, who was on a tear

23:37

through Hollywood, the fine Lana Turner and

23:39

possibly killer with his bare hands. Johnny

23:42

Stompinato's own family didn't believe it.

23:45

They called bullshit on it because here's Johnny

23:47

Stompinato, a combat veteran from the Pacific War

23:49

in World War Two. How was a 13

23:51

year old girl for

23:53

the knife going to sneak up on him and stab him in

23:55

the torso and kill it just didn't make a lot of sense

23:58

for anybody that was smart enough to do that. in

24:00

the room, but this was a great

24:02

public relations campaign that Harry Geisler, you

24:04

know, kind of pulled over on the

24:07

public and the Hollywood press at the

24:09

time and therefore, you know, the police

24:11

officers and the DA's office ultimately led

24:13

to an inquest which was kind of

24:15

a truncated murder trial for

24:17

Lana Turner where she had to basically

24:19

give the performance of her life and

24:22

tell the jury, and tell the press, or

24:24

tell the judge rather, and tell the press

24:26

that it was Cheryl that killed Johnny

24:28

and not her. Now that was a

24:30

gamble that Jerry Geisler decided

24:33

to make because there was really

24:35

no guarantee that Cheryl Crain would,

24:37

you know, would have been let

24:39

go or kind of led

24:41

off by this crime and she

24:43

ultimately went to juvenile hall, spent

24:45

several weeks there before the judge

24:48

decided that it was justifiable homicide

24:50

and she was allowed to leave.

24:53

And what I do like about this story, guys, is

24:55

Lana Turner has been looked at as a

24:58

femme fatale for 60 years in Hollywood history.

25:00

However, I think this story kind of elevates

25:02

her and puts her on that pedestal as

25:04

a feminist icon because what she really

25:06

had to do was take her life back. You know, if

25:08

she was murdered then nobody

25:11

would have been able to raise her

25:13

daughter Cheryl Crain. If Cheryl Crain was

25:15

murdered by Johnny Stampanato, well then,

25:17

you know, Lana Turner, you know, would

25:19

probably have taken her own life at

25:21

that point. So she had to deal

25:23

with evil and she did it the

25:25

only way she knew how which was

25:27

defending herself. Hey, you just mentioned that

25:29

Cheryl ran the risk of being murdered

25:32

by the mafia because of this. I'm

25:34

sure Lana Turner also did and there

25:36

was some danger that came with it

25:38

after because Mickey Cohen was going through

25:40

Hollywood on a rampage, but how does

25:42

that relate to the relationship between Cheryl

25:44

and Lana? What was their relationship like? Was

25:46

it strong enough where they could both understand

25:48

like this is going to put us both

25:50

in danger? Well, I mean, it ebbed and

25:52

flowed. It was a very, I would say

25:55

troubled relationship because every man that Lana introduced

25:57

Cheryl to not only abused Lana, but abused

25:59

Cheryl. Alana's husband's

26:01

prior to Joni Stampanato's involvement was

26:03

an actor named Lex Barker, who

26:06

took over the Tarzan role on the

26:08

big screen from Johnny Weissmuhler. Lex

26:10

Barker sexually assaulted the

26:13

girl for several years before Alana

26:15

found out about it and

26:17

ultimately divorced Lex Barker and

26:19

tried to shield her daughter

26:22

from any wrongdoing in the

26:24

future. But again, Alana was her own forced

26:26

enemy at times because she was always drawn

26:28

to dark men. Including Joni Stampanato, who she

26:30

didn't know was a gangster when they met.

26:32

But ultimately when she found out, evil and

26:34

dangerous he was, he tried to break off

26:37

the relationship and he just wouldn't let her

26:39

do it. So I think Cheryl

26:41

being the teenager that she was,

26:44

listened to her mother, but more importantly, listened

26:46

to her mother's lawyer, Jerry Geese, and

26:48

put all of her faith kind of in his

26:51

word and his work. And

26:53

ultimately, she came out

26:55

of it as did Alana. Their

26:57

relationship as mother and daughter continued

26:59

to ebb and flow for decades.

27:02

And Cheryl Crane never came clean, so

27:05

to speak, and told the real story

27:07

about what happened in that bedroom. And

27:09

I think she did this to protect

27:11

her mother because there was

27:13

no statute of limitation on murder. And

27:15

at any time, Alana Turner could have

27:18

been charged with first

27:20

degree homicide. And the reason why I

27:22

feel so strongly about this guys is

27:24

that Johnny Stampanato's family ultimately

27:26

filed a wrongful death suit against

27:29

Alana Turner, and was about to take

27:31

her to civil trial. Now, Alana Turner

27:34

was innocent in the episode, kind

27:36

of happened the way it was

27:38

told to the media. There

27:40

was no reason for Alana Turner not to

27:43

take the stand again and describe what happened

27:45

in her bedroom. But instead she settled that

27:47

lawsuit because she knew that

27:49

any more testimony on her side would

27:51

have opened her up to criminal

27:53

Charges. How Did it go down

27:56

inside the bedroom? How Did it

27:58

actually... Work. And

28:00

how long was Lana planning this like did

28:02

she? She hit a knife and and was

28:04

ready to use it at when he was

28:06

abusive. I guess they're always really three people

28:09

that know exactly how it happened. Of those

28:11

of a free people there were if the

28:13

math that evening dry stomping on a lot

28:15

of and sugar. Than. And I think

28:17

it was probably a subconscious purchase of

28:19

lot of the day before the murder

28:21

of make that that purpose of that

28:23

so called murder weapon he didn't know

28:25

when she was going to use it.

28:28

She. Knew that she would ultimately use

28:30

it because every argument with her boyfriend

28:32

Johnny stop an auto ended up violently

28:34

ended up with her being smacked around

28:36

her bedroom or anywhere else that those

28:39

two cohabitate good with each other. So

28:41

I think that you know the night

28:43

of of the murder, they got into

28:45

an argument. And. One of the reasons why

28:47

they were. Putting on this night

28:49

is because. No. One of

28:52

Chinese old friends a surprisingly showed up

28:54

at Lana Turner Manson. And. Told

28:56

wanna a different version of Johnny's.

28:59

Background. And John his life them lot a new.

29:01

Journey. Was actually much younger than he

29:03

told lot of he was. In.

29:06

The in the nineteen fifties you know an older

29:08

woman dating a younger man was a big noted.

29:11

In line I was pissed off in

29:13

Stockton and in embarrassed by no thanks

29:15

we can at a when she's expressed

29:17

those concerns with Johnny. He. Knew

29:19

Johnny was gonna get raided. He knew Johnny

29:21

was gonna be the earth's of oh that's

29:23

when she grabbed a knife. Brought.

29:25

It to the bedroom when johnny foul odor.

29:28

Shift. In the door they thought. They.

29:30

Get stabbed. And. He does. What

29:32

does that say about? I mean I guess

29:35

we know what that says about the gender

29:37

roles and in Old Hollywood and also I

29:39

mean current gender roles in Hollywood. split. An

29:41

example of this is the difference between Humphrey

29:44

Bogart, Lauren Bacall was like twenty five years

29:46

but that was fine because he he was

29:48

the older one right. Then I get an

29:50

alert alarm because ninety. An. Hour

29:52

energy and I think you nobody was forty

29:55

five. When. they started to date which

29:57

would shock people today hopefully it's a battle

29:59

to your point back in the 1950s,

30:02

if it was a male actor,

30:04

or just a male in society,

30:06

doing those things to a female,

30:08

nobody cared. You know, I

30:10

mean, again, this is the era where

30:12

you had ads in magazines, showing

30:15

a husband spanking his wife,

30:18

you know, in a pictorial, you know, that

30:20

sold coffee or, or, you know,

30:22

house cleaning apparatus. And if the house wasn't cleaned,

30:24

you know, the wife's got a beating for it.

30:26

It's crazy to look at in the prism of

30:28

2024, what women as a, you know, as

30:33

a whole were subjected to, you know, back then.

30:35

And Lana, despite being incredibly famous, incredibly wealthy, you

30:37

know, she was, she was also victim to it.

30:40

As a writer in 2024, how is it as

30:42

a male writer in 2024, writing about this, how

30:44

do you approach that?

30:49

How do you tell the story of an

30:51

actress of a woman, and all the inequalities that

30:53

are around that? As a writer, how do

30:55

you approach that? Well, you know, I looked at

30:57

it through the prism of my two daughters,

31:00

who are in their 20s. So

31:02

you know, understanding what they are subject to

31:04

in 2024, and

31:06

what they would have been subject to in 1957 and

31:08

58, it angered me. And I really wanted to give

31:12

Lana her agency, I wanted to give her

31:14

her power back, because I think that's been

31:16

taken away from her. It was taken

31:18

away from her by every male, if you

31:21

ever encountered including John, Johnny Stappanato, it was

31:23

taken away from her by the studio heads

31:25

that, you know, brutalized her, both

31:27

physically and mentally, you know, Lana

31:29

was put under a morality contract

31:31

with the studios, where, you know,

31:33

in the 1940s, she was dating

31:35

a African American jazz musician in

31:37

Harlem. But the FBI was following

31:40

her and creating a file

31:43

based on this relationship, a J.

31:45

Edgar Hoover himself sent to

31:47

the head of MGM, Louis B.

31:49

Mayer, and Louis B. Mayer did

31:51

not want the starlet of Hollywood

31:53

fraternizing with or socializing with

31:56

or romancing with an African American

31:58

of any kind. So she

32:00

almost lost her job and got drummed out

32:02

of Hollywood based on that. I have to

32:04

make sure I heard this correctly. She was

32:06

dating an African-American jazz musician. And

32:08

who wrote a letter to the FBI? Well,

32:11

J. Edgar Hoover, the FBI director,

32:14

you know, the head of the FBI himself

32:16

had an agent follow Lana Turner in New

32:18

York to these various hotels

32:20

where Lana and this jazz musician were being

32:23

kicked out of because it was

32:25

a, you know, interracial relationship. So there

32:27

is a pretty thick FBI file that

32:29

the director of the FBI sends to

32:32

the most powerful man in Hollywood, Louis

32:34

B. Mayer, who was Lana Turner's boss

32:36

at the studio. And Louis

32:38

B. Mayer, you know, made sure

32:40

that Lana ended that relationship because it had

32:43

broken her morality clause with the studio.

32:45

And she almost lost her entire career

32:48

because she wanted to love somebody that

32:50

wasn't, quote, unquote, wholesome and, you know,

32:52

Midwestern American. You'd think that Hoover would

32:54

have had something better to do. Well,

32:57

Hoover, you know, was putting on nylons

32:59

half the time. You know, Hoover was

33:01

a strange cat and loved

33:03

to pry into the sexual practices,

33:05

especially of politicians and Hollywood stars.

33:08

It seemed that, you know, he

33:10

had a certain sense of

33:12

finding out what people did behind closed

33:14

doors in their bedrooms. And, you know,

33:17

I was startled at how large the

33:19

Lana Turner FBI file was, but I

33:21

was able to get access to it

33:23

for the book and how she

33:25

was followed, you know, city to

33:27

city by J. Edgar Hoover's agents. We'll

33:29

be right back after a quick word

33:31

from our sponsor. Brought

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to you by eBay authenticity guarantee. Everyone

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deserves real. Brought to you

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by eBay authenticity guarantee. Everyone

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deserves real. And

33:44

a thank you to our sponsors. Back to the

33:47

program. Wow. Well, as

33:49

if it wasn't bad enough that

33:51

Hollywood had an underage girl problem,

33:54

a double standard problem. It

33:56

also has a pretty bad racist problem.

34:00

read a lot about organized crime in

34:02

the book. So you've got gangland shootings,

34:04

you've got bombings, it's very action packed.

34:06

But I also you know, you know

34:08

who the gangsters are, you know what

34:10

they do, and they don't shy away

34:12

from it. It's the Hollywood studios that

34:14

try to come across as being wholesome

34:16

as being all American. But you know,

34:18

behind the scenes, you know, they're even

34:20

worse than some of these gangsters are.

34:22

And I wanted to examine the toxic

34:24

masculinity of Hollywood at that time, certainly

34:26

as it relates to today and peel

34:28

the varnish back on on what

34:31

the practices were. Yeah, yeah, very cool.

34:33

Can you talk a little bit more

34:35

about that about how the studios would

34:37

take advantage of their actors is mostly

34:39

by contracts and things like that? Yeah,

34:41

by contracts and you know, overworking their

34:43

actors, as I mentioned, these kids, and

34:45

they were kids, were working 70 hour

34:48

work weeks, because their parents didn't

34:50

have a job. So these kids had to

34:53

support their entire families. And that still goes

34:55

on, you know, with today's child actors. And

34:58

you know, you look at the tragic demise of Judy

35:00

Garland, and how she succumbed to drugs and alcohol when

35:02

she was in her 40s, I think she was 47

35:05

when she died. And everybody focuses on

35:07

her personal decisions that led

35:09

to her untimely death, but she was

35:11

hooked on drugs by the studios

35:13

when she was 13. So her

35:16

demise actually happened when she was wearing

35:18

the ruby slippers, you know, on the

35:20

descent of the Wizard of Oz, and

35:23

working outrageous, you know, work hours to

35:25

crank out, you know, Hollywood and family

35:27

friendly films for the Hollywood studios. And

35:29

when did the change come about? Because,

35:31

you know, the studio system broke down,

35:34

and actors started to unionize and

35:36

gain more rights? When did that start?

35:38

You have, you know, Humphrey Bogart,

35:40

for example, created United Artists back in I think

35:42

it was the early 1950s. I think the

35:46

Red Scare had a lot to do with it. The

35:48

Blacklist era in Hollywood had a

35:50

lot to do with it, where, you

35:52

know, actors, writers and directors were trying

35:55

to gain some type of control over

35:57

the the industry that relied

35:59

on their creativity to

36:01

survive. And I think

36:04

that it's been a slow progression, but

36:06

now you look at every major star

36:08

in Hollywood that has their own production

36:10

company. And I think they

36:12

all need, they all have

36:14

to provide a sense of gratitude

36:17

to people like Lana Turner, who were

36:19

the first to do it. Now, tell

36:21

us a little bit more about this

36:23

Stompanado guy. Was he able to justify

36:25

his own behavior to himself? No, Stompanado

36:28

was a guy that grew up in

36:30

Illinois. Again, he was a combat veteran

36:33

in the Pacific theater in World War II. Had

36:35

a wife and child in Illinois, but could

36:37

care less about them. Saw visions and stars

36:40

in his eyes of

36:42

what he could accomplish in Hollywood.

36:44

And he makes his way to

36:46

Hollywood through his relationship with

36:49

a British member of aristocracy, somebody

36:51

who was very wealthy, a male,

36:53

who supported Johnny as they were

36:55

going out to LA together. And

36:58

Johnny was providing or selling his

37:00

body to this guy in order to

37:02

get financial support he needed to make

37:04

it out West. Johnny goes out West

37:06

and he's got two jobs basically off

37:08

the bat. During the daytime, he's a

37:11

gigolo, lying poolside at the

37:13

Beverly Hills Hotel. And he is

37:15

selling himself to closeted gay actors

37:18

in performance at the time. People like

37:20

Liberace, people like Merv Griffin, who again,

37:22

could not outwardly say who they loved

37:24

because the cabos of Hollywood didn't allow

37:26

them to do that at the time.

37:29

So Johnny was selling his body to

37:31

these actors. And at night

37:33

he was serving as Mickey Cohen's

37:36

blind side, basically protecting

37:38

his blind side. Johnny became a

37:40

bodyguard and a leg breaker

37:42

and potential assassin for the Al Capone of

37:44

Los Angeles. And this guy was murdered when

37:47

he, you said 32, 33? Yeah,

37:49

he was young when he was killed by Lana. But

37:54

he packed in a lot of

37:57

living in between and

37:59

certainly prayed. on a lot of people.

38:01

He just didn't extort, you know, Lana,

38:03

he extorted, you know, many famous people

38:05

and people that didn't have fame but

38:08

had a lot of money. If you

38:10

had a heavy pocket book, Johnny Stompanato,

38:12

you know, termed you, seduced

38:14

you, and then took you for

38:16

everything you were worth. Well, Casey,

38:18

this has been another great chat.

38:20

We're excited to see your next

38:23

book on sale February 13, 2024

38:26

called The Murder in Hollywood. Is there anything else

38:28

you'd like to say here today? I'm really

38:30

excited about the book launch. You know,

38:32

I've got appearances in LA, Texas, New

38:36

York City, throughout New England. We're

38:38

developing or adapting the book right

38:40

now into a feature film with

38:43

Terrence winter, who created Boardwalk

38:45

Empire, was one of the creative

38:47

minds of the Sopranos, etc.

38:49

Real big power player, great creative

38:52

mind in Hollywood and understands this

38:54

collision course of Hollywood

38:56

gangsters and all time Hollywood

38:58

glamour. And we're, you know,

39:01

we're excited to tell the story on the

39:03

big screen as well. Amazing, amazing. And Tim

39:05

and I will be first in line for

39:07

that movie passes there when that hits the

39:09

big screen. But speaking of movies, you said

39:11

that your big fan, one of your favorite

39:13

movies is LA confidential. That's right. That was

39:16

an influence for me to get involved with

39:18

The Murder in Hollywood. One of my all

39:20

time favorite films, great book

39:22

by James Elroy. But there's a

39:24

scene in LA confidential

39:27

where to the detectives Bud White

39:29

and the detective played by

39:31

Guy Pierce, they stumble into the cafe

39:33

for most of which is a an

39:35

old time Hollywood restaurant that still exists

39:38

in West Hollywood. They approach a booth where

39:40

Lana Turner and Johnny Stompanato are canoodling at

39:42

the time and Lana first a drink in

39:44

one of the actors faces. It's kind of

39:46

a comic moment in the movie. But that

39:48

was really, I would say

39:51

my only knowledge of Lana and

39:53

Johnny before I dove headfirst into

39:55

this writing project. That's cool. It

39:57

actually made me think of my

39:59

close question which is, is there another

40:01

movie that you're a fan of that is set

40:04

in a different time period that you would be

40:06

interested in finding a little nugget of a story

40:08

within that? Well you know that's

40:11

a really great question. There's a great

40:13

book that's already been written you guys

40:15

probably know of it but it's it's

40:17

called I think the Last Goodbye and

40:19

it's about the making of Chinatown. One

40:21

of my all-time favorite films, great film

40:23

noir starring Jack Nicholson and directed by

40:25

Roland Polanski. But I'm always looking for

40:27

you know the story behind the story.

40:30

So I'm open to ideas anybody in

40:32

your you know listening audience wants to

40:34

send me some some ideas. I'm on

40:37

X or Twitter Casey Sherman 123. I

40:40

do have some ideas for a couple of

40:42

the next projects that I have. I mentioned

40:44

to you a book that I have coming

40:47

out next year called Deadly Depths which is

40:49

a story about a young

40:51

man with Asperger's Syndrome who

40:53

took his mother on a deep sea fishing trip

40:55

in 2016 at the boats since she drowns. He

40:57

is a

41:01

castaway on a life raft

41:03

for seven days before he's picked up by

41:06

a Chinese cargo ship. Fishing or I should

41:08

say in the shipping lanes off New England

41:10

a hundred miles off of Martha's Vineyard. So

41:12

right there you've got a pretty wild story

41:15

and this young man is treated as a

41:17

kind of a sullen sad hero when he is

41:20

bound and rescued and ultimately interviewed by

41:22

the Coast Guard and then the press

41:24

understands that while the same

41:26

young man was also the

41:29

prime suspect in the unsolved

41:31

murder of his multi-millionaire grandfather

41:33

three years before who was

41:35

shot three times in the head sleeping in his

41:37

bed in Connecticut. So now you've got

41:40

two crimes that this young man is implicated

41:42

in. So this is the story that

41:44

I weave together for Deadly Depths and

41:47

as I said it's got a very

41:49

surprise ending because I am not sure

41:51

that this young man was guilty of

41:54

the crimes that he was accused

41:56

of. Wow very cool can't wait for that one

41:58

too. This has been great. Casey, thanks again

42:00

for joining us here today. We really appreciate

42:03

it. My pleasure, guys. Always a great conversation.

42:05

Thank you so much. Thank you. Get back

42:07

to your gum chewing. All right, guys. Have

42:09

a great one. While

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