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1:06

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

1:14

Will it ever end?

1:17

Two parents seemingly locked

1:21

in endless combat after

1:25

the brutal death of

1:27

their gorgeous, and I mean gorgeous

1:29

on the inside and the out,

1:32

the brutal stabbing

1:35

death of their daughter, Ellen.

1:40

This young girl who had just

1:42

sent out the save the dates

1:44

for her wedding is found

1:46

dead in

1:49

her own kitchen with multiple

1:52

stab wounds. And you know what? Multiple

1:54

is not really the right word. At

1:57

least 20 stab

1:59

wounds. including to

2:02

her back. Shockingly,

2:04

at

2:05

least one of them

2:07

believed to be post mortem.

2:10

After she's dead, another

2:12

stab wound?

2:13

One of the stab wounds so

2:16

deep it would have paralyzed

2:18

her and yet there were more stab wounds? Now

2:22

here's the kicker. It's

2:24

declared a suicide. How

2:27

in the H-E-L-L do

2:29

you stab yourself? 20 plus

2:31

times including in the back, in the back

2:33

of the head, in the back of the neck. Post

2:36

mortem,

2:38

it's a suicide? That is total

2:40

BS. I can't scream

2:43

it loudly enough. So

2:45

why are the parents, who

2:48

I now consider to be friends, still

2:51

locked in moral combat

2:53

with

2:54

the authorities that should be their advocates?

2:58

Why can't this case

3:02

be treated like other cases?

3:05

Why has this been deemed a suicide

3:08

when it's so obviously a homicide?

3:12

With me, Ellen

3:14

Greenberg's parents speaking

3:17

out, is there a glimmer

3:20

of hope at the end

3:22

of this hellish tunnel? I'm

3:25

Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

3:27

I want to thank you for being with us today

3:30

at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111 for

3:33

a story, as some people call

3:36

it, but it's no story.

3:38

It's real. There is

3:40

a real grave that

3:42

I've been to. There

3:45

are real people and

3:47

I'm referring specifically to

3:50

Sandy and Josh Greenberg,

3:52

who are suffering. And

3:55

God help me. I want

3:58

justice. How

4:01

this is all dwindled

4:04

down to politics, rank

4:08

politics, standing in the

4:10

way of justice. I

4:12

don't know. First

4:15

of all, I want you to take a listen

4:17

to our

4:20

friends at Oxygen. Suicide

4:23

was the farthest thing from Ellen's

4:27

Sandy told investigators Ellen might have

4:29

experienced some anxiety about her job

4:31

and the wedding, but Sandy wasn't concerned.

4:34

She was getting up and going to work

4:36

every day, functioning, but

4:39

stressed. She had

4:42

told me that she felt anxious and overwhelmed

4:44

about her teaching and

4:47

planning a wedding. Still,

4:49

Ellen's friends

4:49

were stunned by the news. Suicide

4:52

didn't make any sense. She was over

4:54

the moon about her engagement. Four days

4:57

before Ellen's death, we all received

4:59

the save the date in the mail. I remember calling

5:01

her on the phone saying, oh my God, they're

5:03

so beautiful. And she was so excited. Having

5:06

dealt for years and years and years

5:09

with the methods and assessment of

5:11

homicide and suicide, I just don't see

5:13

it. Forget about all the

5:16

obvious hard evidence that this is not a suicide.

5:19

Behaviorally speaking,

5:21

you don't come home

5:24

from school early. Ellen was a school teacher

5:26

in a blizzard. Call all

5:28

of the students' families, their parents, make sure

5:30

they all got home okay. Go

5:33

in your kitchen and start making a fruit salad.

5:35

And right in the middle of chopping up the bananas

5:37

and the apples, you go, hey,

5:40

I'm depressed. I'm gonna kill

5:42

myself. Right here in the kitchen, in the

5:44

middle of my fruit salad, that's not the way

5:47

suicide goes down.

5:49

It never has, and it never will.

5:52

And statistically, it is highly

5:55

unlikely that a young girl

5:58

of this age would...

5:59

stab herself dead much less

6:02

in the back 20 times. But

6:05

now I want you to hear this before we

6:07

kick it off with the guests. This

6:09

is Brian Sheehan, NBC. The

6:11

AG's office, led by Josh Shapiro,

6:13

the current Democratic nominee for governor,

6:16

has long insisted evidence proves

6:18

the 27-year-old died by suicide.

6:21

She was found by her fiancé with 20 stab

6:23

wounds inside their Manionk apartment in January

6:27

But the Greenburgs are convinced she was murdered,

6:29

and they're currently suing the city's medical examiner

6:32

with the hope of reopening the case.

6:34

I've lost count of all the amount

6:36

of monies and efforts

6:39

and emotions that we've been working

6:41

at to try to clear

6:44

our daughter's name and get justice for

6:46

Ellen Rae Greenberg. She was stabbed 20

6:49

times, half of the wounds to the back

6:51

of her neck.

6:51

She talked to any reasonable person,

6:54

and they all say, what

6:57

the hell is going on? Tom Brennan

6:59

logged 25 years with the Pennsylvania

7:01

State Police and worked at the FBI's

7:04

Behavioral Science Unit in Quantico, Virginia.

7:06

Now retired, he has worked nearly seven years

7:09

pro bono with the Greenburgs investigating

7:11

Ellen's death.

7:12

I said this is a homicide. Wow, seven

7:15

years pro bono for

7:17

free?

7:18

This

7:20

guy believes in it, and he is

7:22

a veteran law enforcement officer

7:24

with me, an all-star panel to make sense of

7:27

what is happening in the Ellen

7:29

Greenberg investigation. But before

7:31

I go to our panel,

7:34

I first want to go to two very

7:37

special guests that I now consider my

7:39

friends, Josh and Sandy

7:42

Greenberg, Ellen's parents. And

7:44

I want you to know you can find

7:46

them online on Twitter, at

7:49

JusticeForEllenTW,

7:50

and

7:53

on Facebook, at JusticeForEllenFB.

7:57

Sandy and Josh, thank you for being with us. Sandy,

7:59

have a great day.

7:59

How do you keep getting up in

8:02

the morning and continuing this fight?

8:05

Well, we have a mission and a

8:07

purpose, as my husband says all

8:09

the time. And

8:13

I'm just convinced that we

8:16

will clear her name. It's obviously,

8:18

they're trying to wear us down

8:21

and delay and use every tactic

8:24

in the book. There's too much

8:27

publicity right now and the facts

8:30

are in the universe and now it's

8:32

just a matter of time till

8:34

things

8:36

catch up with

8:38

the politicians and the bureaucrats

8:41

because this is not

8:43

a made up story.

8:45

If this wasn't my life, I wouldn't

8:47

really believe it. It was hard for me to

8:49

believe as well. I thought

8:52

certainly someone was

8:54

just making up a crazy headline and

8:57

that when I read the true facts,

8:59

it wouldn't be real.

9:02

It is real. You know,

9:04

Josh, you and I have talked so

9:06

many times, I love

9:09

my mother so much,

9:13

but there's something, there was something about

9:15

my dad. I still consider my

9:17

dad

9:19

to be my soulmate and

9:21

I miss him every single day.

9:25

And I believe you feel the same

9:27

thing about Ellen and

9:30

I want to know

9:31

how you get up in the morning

9:33

and keep going. Nancy,

9:36

I don't know another way. This

9:39

is the way my parents brought me up. This

9:41

is the way I feel I have to be. We

9:44

had reached the point at one time recently

9:46

where maybe we were going to stop and

9:49

I got physically ill. I just

9:51

couldn't deal with it. I

9:54

don't know how, as two other people

9:56

have tried to suggest to me, you could

9:58

just leave your daughter. knowing what

10:00

the truth is. And the truth here

10:03

is Ellen was murdered brutally

10:05

with probably

10:07

at least 18 or 19 stab wounds

10:09

while she was still able to feel

10:11

possibly. I'm not a

10:14

neurobiologist by trade, so

10:16

I can't really say what the

10:19

stab wound to her brain did.

10:22

But

10:23

I just get up every day and that's

10:25

what I do.

10:26

That's what I have to do. I

10:28

don't think about it. Anything special.

10:30

I'm not a special person. And

10:32

I don't see how I

10:34

get the,

10:36

it's called lack of a better term, adulation

10:39

for others who say they can't believe I go

10:41

on like this. I don't know another way

10:43

to go on. I really don't.

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and qualified returning subscribers only. Renews for $10.99 a month

12:02

until canceled. See full terms at pressplayandsummer.com.

12:04

We know you'd rather not be listening to an ad, but

12:07

if you have to, a mini ad is better.

12:09

Maybe even a Pepsi mini ad. Still

12:11

all the flavor of the full-size thing, just

12:14

mini-er. Pepsi minis. That's

12:17

what I like.

12:25

Prime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys,

12:28

I'm gonna bring in the rest of our All-Star

12:30

panel. When I say All-Star, I mean it.

12:33

I want justice so

12:36

badly for Ellen and her

12:38

parents. I

12:41

want her name

12:42

cleared, as they say. This

12:45

girl, this beautiful young woman, did

12:48

not commit suicide. And

12:50

how this has turned into a

12:53

mud-slinging political

12:56

football, I just don't understand it.

12:58

But here, I want you to hear what

13:01

we know. This

13:04

is my friend and colleague,

13:07

Joe Scott Morgan, and here we are

13:09

on Teacher Death Mystery on Fox Nation.

13:11

Listen. When I was so deep, it

13:14

actually nixed the spine.

13:15

But you know, here's the rub. There's

13:18

no hemorrhage. There's absolutely no hemorrhage

13:20

in this insult. In other words, no bleeding.

13:22

No bleeding whatsoever.

13:24

Which means, by the time she was stabbed

13:26

in the back, on that

13:28

particular stab, there was no bleeding

13:31

because her heart was no longer pumping.

13:33

There is no blood where

13:36

the stab occurred. That means

13:38

that Ellen didn't have a pulse when that stab

13:40

occurred. A post-mortem wound

13:43

cannot be done by the victim. By

13:45

definition, a post-mortem wound means you're

13:47

dead. Somebody else is administering

13:49

that wound.

13:50

Joining us also, Gavin Fish,

13:52

investigative journalist. You can

13:54

find him at GavinFish.com. Gavin,

13:57

you have been on all over.

13:59

this case. Tell me

14:02

what is the very latest? Yeah.

14:04

I've been on this case since a viewer of mine told

14:06

me to check it out and it just

14:09

sucked me in. I would look at

14:11

pictures of Ellen and think if this

14:13

could happen to this young woman, this could happen

14:15

to any young woman. So everybody

14:18

should care. And the

14:20

latest on this is that the

14:22

case has been re-opened, so

14:24

to speak. It has been referred out of the attorney

14:27

general's office and is being investigated.

14:31

I hope it's being investigated by the Chester

14:33

County District Attorney's office

14:36

and West Chester's DA, which is just south

14:38

of Philadelphia. Well, you know what, Gavin? That's

14:40

a fine how do you do? That the case

14:42

has to be removed from the top cop,

14:45

the one you're supposed to trust the most in

14:47

the entire state. You have to take

14:50

it away from them and give it to somebody

14:52

else to investigate. Why is the case

14:54

being taken away from the attorney

14:57

general?

14:57

I was given a tip from

14:59

a viewer stating that the then

15:02

attorney general, Josh Shapiro, was

15:05

personal friends with members of the

15:07

family of Ellen's fiancee. And

15:09

I was able to verify that and

15:11

I published that. And

15:14

shortly thereafter, Shapiro's office

15:16

very quietly on a Friday afternoon

15:18

said, yeah, there's an appearance of a

15:20

conflict of interest here. We're not going

15:22

to look at it anymore. It's going to go somewhere

15:25

else.

15:25

Appearance of a conflict of

15:27

interest. Let me understand what you just said. Gavin

15:30

Fisk joining me, investigative journalist. Gavin,

15:33

you're telling me that

15:34

you believe the

15:36

fiancee, who was

15:39

with Ellen the day of

15:41

her murder, he had come

15:43

to the apartment. He said he left

15:45

the apartment to go downstairs to

15:48

work out in the workout room. He

15:50

came back upstairs. She

15:52

wouldn't open the door. He tore

15:55

the door down after he said he texted

15:57

her for nearly 30 minutes trying to get her to open the

15:59

door. the door and she did not respond. He

16:02

tears the door down and he just finds her

16:05

there dead in the kitchen floor. That

16:07

fiance, is that the one that

16:09

says he's gone for what? 45 minutes, 40,

16:12

40 minutes to work out and lo and

16:15

behold, and those 40 minutes,

16:17

poof, somebody comes in and kills

16:20

her or she kills herself in the middle of

16:22

a fruit salad.

16:23

That guy, that's the guy. Yeah. They're

16:25

stinking rich. Can I just put that out

16:27

there? They're dripping in money. Okay.

16:30

Now, hold on. So

16:33

the fiance who

16:36

finds Ellen dead father

16:40

donated money to the

16:42

elected attorney general. The AG,

16:45

is that what you're saying?

16:46

Yeah. According to the public records, I

16:48

went through the Hankin family,

16:51

which is the kind of generationally wealthy

16:53

family that Sam Goldberg comes from, through

16:56

various different people and various different

16:58

organizations have donated to Josh

17:01

Piero from the time

17:03

that he was a state congressman,

17:05

a state assemblyman. So they've

17:07

known him a long time. Their

17:11

family members went even to school

17:13

with him, high school with him. They've

17:16

known each other a long, long time.

17:17

Okay. Wait, what? I

17:19

didn't know that part.

17:21

Tell me about the high school. They went to high school together.

17:23

Yeah. The tip that I got, it

17:25

was an anonymous tip on my website was, you

17:27

know, judge Schwartzman who was

17:29

Sam who was on scene that night.

17:32

He was one of the first people

17:34

that Sam talked to even before he called 911,

17:38

his uncle, judge James

17:40

Schwartzman. His

17:42

daughter went to school with

17:45

Josh Piero and you can even go back and look at Josh

17:49

Piero's Twitter feed. And as recently

17:51

as just in the last few years,

17:53

he calls her, my friend can

17:56

be Schwartzman. They're, they're close. They're family

17:58

friends.

17:58

Sandy,

18:01

did you have any idea that

18:04

your daughter's fiancee, who was with

18:06

her,

18:07

with her in the apartment complex,

18:11

at the time she died? Did

18:14

you have any idea his family

18:16

was friends with AG and had donated

18:19

money over years and years and years

18:21

to the AG and went to high school

18:24

with the AG? Did you know that? No. No idea whatsoever.

18:29

They should have recused themselves on day one

18:32

instead of claiming this is a suicide. Guys,

18:36

speaking of the fiancee, remember

18:38

I started this whole thing by telling you about a

18:40

save the date that Ellen had

18:42

just sent out

18:43

and then suddenly she commits suicide? Uh-uh.

18:47

No. I want to talk to you

18:49

about the 911 call. But first to

18:52

Dr. John De La Torre joining me, psychologist

18:55

and mediator specializing in

18:57

forensic psychology. Dr. De

19:00

La Torre, thank you for being with us. I

19:02

had to study word

19:03

for word, learned

19:08

treatises on the method

19:10

and assessment of homicide and suicide. And

19:12

I am just telling you that over

19:15

many, many years, 50 plus

19:18

years, these methods have

19:21

been assessed.

19:22

And it will be a cold day

19:25

in H-E-L-L that

19:28

a woman like Ellen Greenberg,

19:31

her age, her sex,

19:34

her education, her background,

19:37

everything that we know about her is

19:39

statistically inconsistent

19:42

with not only a suicide

19:44

of this ilk, but being found

19:47

in this manner. She would never

19:49

do that. Knifing herself to

19:51

death?

19:59

Right? When you think about when women

20:02

commit suicide, we often have

20:04

this sort of gendered stereotype that

20:07

women don't want to leave a mess. And so they

20:09

try to find places like a bathtub or something like

20:11

that, where they, if that's the

20:13

thing that they're going to do, they want

20:15

to ensure that there's no sort of disruption

20:18

to the rest of the world around

20:20

them. They kind of want to just kind of be let

20:23

go. But looking at renderings

20:25

that I've seen of all these staff, there

20:27

is no possible way that

20:29

she would have the emotional experience necessary

20:35

towards herself to engage

20:37

in this particular set

20:39

of behaviors.

20:40

And I want to point out, it's not just a stereotype

20:44

that this is how women do

20:46

or do not commit suicide. This is

20:48

backed up with decades and

20:50

decades of statistics to show

20:52

it. Very rarely will you

20:55

see a female, especially

20:57

of her age and her background, for

20:59

instance, shoot herself in the face.

21:01

That doesn't happen. I mean there are

21:03

rare instances where it does happen, but

21:06

it's a tiny, tiny percent

21:09

of female suicides. It

21:11

typically goes down with a woman that

21:13

they take an overdose. They

21:16

inhale carbon monoxide, some

21:19

jump to their death. Some of

21:22

them even dress up

21:24

and get totally done and hair and makeup

21:26

before they kill themselves.

21:28

They go off to a secluded spot.

21:32

They're just

21:34

textbook characteristics of female

21:36

suicide. This meets none of them.

21:39

But I want to get back to the fiance

21:42

and his family that have been donating to the

21:44

attorney general, according to many sources for years

21:47

and years and years through the Henkin family,

21:49

they went to high school with the attorney general. Now

21:54

I want to focus on what happened that day, that

21:56

day after

21:57

Ellen Came

22:00

home in a blizzard.

22:02

School was let out early.

22:04

She comes home, calls all

22:07

of her students' families to make sure they got home okay,

22:10

starts making lunch, and

22:12

then suddenly on a whim decides

22:14

to kill herself. That's so much BS

22:17

right there. Take a listen to our Cut 29, the 911

22:19

call. Help! I just walked

22:21

into my fireplace. She answered on the

22:23

floor with blood everywhere. What is the address?

22:28

Please come. Help! Oh no! Please

22:31

hurry, please. I

22:33

don't know. I can't tell. You have

22:35

to calm

22:36

yourself down in order to get

22:38

you some help. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm

22:41

looking at her right now. I can't

22:44

see anything. There's

22:47

nothing broken. She's bleeding.

22:49

You don't know where she's bleeding from.

22:52

I think her head. It's everywhere.

22:56

I think she might have fallen. Do you

22:58

know what happened? She may have slipped

23:00

his blood on the table. Her picture

23:03

is a little purple. Okay, hold on

23:05

for rescue for her stay on the phone.

23:07

How can he even say she

23:09

may have slipped? There is

23:11

a knife protruding from

23:14

her chest.

23:16

How is that a slip? Why did he

23:18

say that? And the,

23:20

oh no, oh no. I don't like

23:22

the way this sounds.

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24:07

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

24:10

Joe Scott Morgan is joining us guys and

24:13

he has invested hundreds

24:16

of hours recreating

24:18

the scene of Ellen Greenberg's

24:20

homicide which was then ruled a

24:22

suicide. Professor forensics Jacksonville

24:25

State University, author of Blood

24:27

Beneath My Feet on Amazon, the

24:29

first of a new hit series Body Bags with Joseph

24:32

Scott Morgan. Joe Scott,

24:34

a slip, a slip and fall.

24:37

There's 20 plus wounds including

24:39

a knife protruding from her chest.

24:42

Help me please. I feel like I'm in Alice

24:45

in Wonderland upside down.

24:47

Look, back to what Dr.

24:49

John was saying real quick. I

24:51

worked hundreds of suicides

24:54

over the course of my career with a coroner in New

24:56

Orleans and Emmy in Atlanta. I

24:59

think of only three over

25:02

that course of time where I've had multiple self-inflicted

25:05

stab wounds and

25:07

they have always been on the front of

25:10

the body, interior and

25:12

in every case you're talking about somebody

25:15

that was in a great, debilitated

25:18

state mentally where they were literally

25:20

in a psychotic phase.

25:22

You mean they didn't just send out their save the dates

25:24

for their wedding?

25:25

No, they didn't. They did. At

25:27

best you're talking about anxiety

25:30

and that sort of thing that Ellen was dealing with,

25:32

stuff that many of us deal with day in and day

25:34

out. Wait, Joe Scott.

25:37

You may be a renowned death

25:40

investigator. You may be

25:42

an honored professor at Jacksonville

25:44

State University which has an incredible

25:46

criminal justice program. I

25:49

think you kind of glossed over

25:52

when you said Ellen was facing

25:54

the same things that we all face. You mean

25:56

the happiest time of her life? Planning

25:59

her wedding? literally

26:02

glowing. I mean, Sandy,

26:04

some of the pictures that she has shared with me, she

26:07

actually looks like she's glowing. And that

26:10

smile,

26:11

she's so happy. Yeah,

26:14

she's teaching, she's doing the job she loves,

26:16

she's dealing with the pressure of planning

26:19

a wedding, but

26:20

that's very often the happiest

26:23

time of women's

26:25

life. Nancy, one other thing

26:27

I'd like to add is that she

26:30

on her way home from school in the blizzard

26:32

went to the gas station and filled

26:35

up her gas tank. I still

26:37

have the receipt, got more

26:40

than $40 worth of gasoline.

26:43

If she was planning on committing

26:45

suicide, why the need to

26:47

fill up your car with gas? You know, that

26:50

is classic. Matthew Mangino,

26:52

I haven't forgotten you. Just give me a moment.

26:54

I've got to go back to our shrink. Dr.

26:57

De La Torre,

26:59

she's right. I mean,

27:02

I can think these

27:04

things. I'm conscious of these facts,

27:07

but could you please enunciate for

27:09

us as you can do so well?

27:11

Why filling the gas tank full

27:14

is a red flag. This is not a

27:16

suicide while making lunch

27:19

is a red flag. If you're about to kill

27:21

yourself, why go make lunch? Why

27:24

make a beautiful fruit salad? I know I keep

27:26

saying fruit salad, but why

27:28

do that? If you're about to kill yourself,

27:31

why do all the things she's doing,

27:34

if she knows she's not going to

27:36

be around, it's inconsistent.

27:38

Yeah, it's inconsistent because it's future oriented.

27:40

Here's the thing with individuals who are

27:43

at that place where suicide for them is

27:45

the only option for their lives. They

27:47

have committed to that. They see no

27:49

future in which they end up in their

27:51

lives, being the hero of their own story

27:54

or being happy in any way. So

27:56

they're very past oriented. They're thinking

27:58

about all the difficulties and all the trying.

27:59

and tribulations that they had to go

28:02

through, that they don't believe that they have a way

28:04

out. There's nothing here, putting

28:06

gas in the car, making food,

28:09

but having sent out the save, that they've

28:11

having called parents. None of these

28:13

are past oriented behaviors. These are

28:15

all considered, right? These are all considerations

28:18

of other people's emotions and being future

28:21

oriented.

28:22

There's no way that this woman

28:24

committed suicide.

28:25

You know, I wanna go back to Sandy

28:27

and Josh. And Josh, please just

28:29

jump in. I'd like to jump in. Let's

28:31

go back to how clean

28:33

women maintain themselves or their

28:35

surroundings. Women allegedly

28:38

do not stab themselves through their clothes.

28:42

They rip open their shirts and stab

28:44

themselves. I don't wanna stab through her shirt.

28:48

I would plan Sandy brought up the part

28:50

about the gas tank. Again, a person

28:52

who has planning

28:54

to do something. And the doctor

28:56

that just spoke, although I only have 13 years

28:59

of psychiatric care since my own

29:01

my daughter's death,

29:03

she had

29:05

ways out, she was planning ways out.

29:07

She had approached a neighbor, a friend

29:10

about leaving the apartment.

29:12

And when the friend

29:14

asked about that the fiance was coming, Ellen

29:17

didn't answer. I never knew

29:20

that until about two months ago. So

29:22

Ellen did have a way out. The

29:25

way out, I think I believe

29:27

was that day she was leaving. Because

29:30

if you look at the pictures,

29:32

something very important to Ellen was stacked

29:34

on her bed and that was her makeup. My

29:37

wife and my daughter do not travel

29:40

without their makeup. No matter how attractive

29:42

they look to you. I've

29:45

learned that over 43 years.

29:47

And these things all add up to the same

29:49

thing. Ellen was suffering

29:52

from anxiety. When

29:55

doctor, I forget the name of the psychiatrist,

29:58

we read her notes, she based the year. She said, oh, it was not

30:00

suicidal after the visit. And

30:03

her diagnosis was anxiety. And

30:06

I'd like to say what anxiety means. Anxiety means

30:08

I'm driving on the Pennsylvania Turnpike, and

30:11

a big truck pulls up next to me. It's sort of, I

30:13

feel squeezed in in that left lane.

30:16

That's not depression. You don't kill yourself

30:18

over anxiety. That's what I've learned also.

30:22

She was not a suicide

30:24

victim.

30:25

She was murdered. She was brutally murdered.

30:28

And she never had the necessary

30:32

mindset to kill herself.

30:34

Sandy, how does she sound on the phone

30:36

when you spoke to her? Oh, she was in total

30:38

control. She was on her way to work.

30:41

And I was putting on my makeup getting ready

30:43

to go to work. And we

30:47

typically would check in with one another

30:49

on her way to work. And

30:52

I was telling her that she

30:55

wasn't always checking the mail because

30:58

she didn't get that much. But the

31:01

tax things

31:03

would be coming in the mail. And I

31:05

wanted her to be sure to check because

31:08

we send our things to our

31:10

accountant and to

31:12

look for that.

31:14

PES, maybe

31:16

three months after Ellen passes,

31:20

our accountant's filing our

31:22

taxes. And Ellen's tax

31:24

return

31:26

check

31:27

was already cashed,

31:29

though someone stole her identity.

31:31

Wow.

31:32

Guys, I want to go back to the 911

31:34

call. But first, Jessica Morgan,

31:37

what was the rest of your thought? Yeah, I

31:39

had a very specific question. I've always

31:42

wanted to ask Ellen's mom

31:44

and dad.

31:45

We talk a lot about

31:47

these injuries, these

31:49

stab wounds over

31:53

these multiple areas of her body. And

31:56

forgive me for talking

31:58

about this. But I've got to ask.

32:01

something I'm very interested in is, you

32:03

know, the ME describes

32:06

multiple and they use

32:08

that term multiple conclusions

32:11

over her upper and lower extremities.

32:15

I have this question to ask, was

32:17

Ellen ever unsteady? Did

32:20

she have an unsteady gaze that would cause

32:22

her to bump into things or unsure

32:25

where to see that sort of thing? No.

32:30

Those bruises

32:32

in the first autopsy were identified by

32:34

Osborne as consistent with

32:36

abuse. And I

32:39

firmly believe those

32:41

theories have

32:43

a major part in my daughter's death.

32:46

Well, something is... My

32:49

brother was abused,

32:51

didn't want anyone else to know. If

32:55

we want to get into abuse, we all know that

32:57

the abused person that

32:59

feels they're at risk, they're wrong.

33:01

And the abuser is the rock. And

33:04

she used

33:05

that term. And these are things I've learned over these 13

33:07

years.

33:08

Well, you're right, Josh, because there

33:10

were multiple bruises across her body

33:12

in various stages

33:15

of healing. Matthew Mangino with me,

33:17

high profile lawyer, joining us out

33:19

of Pennsylvania, author of The Executioner's

33:22

Toll. Matthew, jump in.

33:24

Well, yeah, I mean, everything about this

33:26

doesn't add up, Nancy,

33:29

in terms of her history of

33:33

injuries. I mean, the suicide

33:35

aspect is frankly ridiculous.

33:38

The thing that bothers me the most is that the

33:40

medical examiner would come out

33:43

initially and say that this is a homicide.

33:46

And then through the influence

33:48

of the police, it changed

33:50

it to suicide. That

33:52

is extremely problematic

33:56

from my perspective. How can the medical

33:58

examiner be trusted? if

34:00

he's going to make a finding

34:02

and then that finding is going to change because

34:05

of some influences outside of the medical

34:07

examiner's office. That's

34:10

a big concern as far as I'm concerned.

34:14

You don't have to necessarily be a medical

34:16

examiner to understand that it's

34:19

virtually impossible for someone to

34:21

stab themselves 20 or 21 times,

34:24

stab themselves in the back of the

34:26

neck and cause their

34:28

own death. I mean, it's almost a ridiculous

34:30

premise to begin with. And

34:33

then, you know, the medical examiner changing

34:35

his mind only fuels

34:37

the idea that there's some sort of conspiracy

34:40

here to cover this up.

34:42

Well, you're right, Matthew Mangino. Gavin

34:44

Fish joining us, investigative journalist

34:46

on the case since it began

34:49

due to a tip that was

34:51

sent to him by a listener. Gavin,

34:54

thanks again for being with us.

34:56

The conflict of interest between

34:58

the AG and the fiance's

35:01

family, in my mind, is overwhelming.

35:05

But what can you tell me about the

35:07

mayor? What is the very latest

35:10

regarding the possibility

35:12

this case is going to

35:13

be reopened? Well, the mayor

35:16

has the authority in the

35:18

city of Pennsylvania to

35:20

instruct the medical examiner's office

35:23

to reopen their file. And

35:27

so there's an effort right

35:29

now to pressure the

35:32

political body in Philadelphia, including

35:35

Mayor Kinney, to instruct

35:37

the medical examiner's office

35:39

to reopen this case. They've

35:42

got new people there. You know, Dr. Osborne doesn't

35:44

work there anymore. He's down there in Florida. The

35:47

staff that was there at the time

35:49

that Ellen died is no longer there.

35:51

So if we could get an honest look

35:54

from the current staff of the medical

35:56

examiner's office, I think they

35:58

would come to the right. conclusion and

36:01

that is that Ellen was murdered. And

36:03

if I can go back to the 911 call to Sam Goldberg

36:06

when he's sitting there saying she may

36:08

have slipped, the blood's coming from her head,

36:10

I don't know. You know, in that

36:12

scene Ellen was wearing gray sweats

36:15

and a gray hoodie with purple and

36:17

blue writing on it. The

36:19

very first thing that you notice when

36:21

you look at that is a giant

36:24

cut coat knife handle sticking out

36:26

of her chest. It's big. It may

36:29

as well have a neon sign pointed at

36:32

it saying, look at me. It's the very

36:34

first thing that you notice. So I'm just

36:36

completely unconvinced by his

36:39

by his eyes.

36:40

Guys, the Philadelphia mayor

36:42

that has the potential, has

36:44

the power to make a difference in this case

36:46

is Mayor Jim Kinney

36:49

and his phone number is 215-686-2181. And I'm

36:51

sure

36:55

they'd

36:58

love to hear from the public

37:00

what we think about this case. 215-686-2181, the

37:07

case of Ellen Greenberg. Speaking

37:09

of that 911 call, I want

37:12

you to take a listen to our

37:14

cut

37:38

Sure

37:45

won't come off as a zipper. She stabbed

37:47

herself.

37:59

I don't know. Okay, well don't touch it.

38:02

Okay, right there a couple things

38:04

jump out at me. You

38:06

have the fiancé Sam Goldberg who is

38:08

now remarried. Well, let

38:10

me say married,

38:12

because he and Ellen

38:13

never made it down the aisle.

38:15

She

38:17

was killed just shortly after sending out

38:19

the save the dates. When the dispatcher

38:21

says start CPR, he

38:24

says I have to write,

38:27

and then immediately he is

38:29

the one that comes up with, oh

38:32

my god, she stabbed

38:34

herself. Then says

38:37

she fell on the

38:39

knife. Sandy

38:41

Greenberg,

38:42

when you hear that portion

38:45

of the fiancé's 911 call, I

38:48

want to know your thoughts. Well, I was heartbroken

38:51

the first time I heard it when

38:54

he said to the dispatcher, do

38:56

I have to? Like, first of all,

38:58

I

38:59

take CPR every two years,

39:02

and you're told in any kind of an emergency

39:05

situation, the very first

39:07

thing you do is call 911. You

39:10

don't call your uncle, you

39:12

don't call your cousin, you don't call

39:14

your father, you get the victim

39:17

help.

39:18

And

39:19

do I have to? She's

39:21

planning on, you know, marrying

39:24

him and

39:26

having a family with him, but

39:28

he doesn't want to try

39:30

to save her life. I was crushed.

39:33

Guys, take a listen to our cut 34, more of

39:35

that 911

39:35

call. What, you were just you there with her?

39:37

Yeah, we're the

39:40

only ones here. And she ran and the

39:42

door, you said, landed shut? No, no, I

39:44

went downstairs to work out, when

39:47

I came back up, the door was latched. It

39:50

wasn't like it was, you know, a little block from

39:52

the inside, and I'm yelling,

39:54

and I'm telling you,

39:57

something's going to happen. No,

40:00

no, no. So, no sign of a break-in? No,

40:03

no sign of a break-in at all. There will be when you get here,

40:05

because I had to break the

40:06

latch to get

40:08

in. Okay, 4601

40:09

Slade Rock, and this is

40:11

the house,

40:11

right? This is apartment, Fire and

40:14

Road, apartment 603.

40:15

Okay, thank you. Oh

40:17

my God, oh my God, all right. Thank you. Thank

40:19

you. Bye. Hmm. Uh,

40:21

Gavin Fish, joining us investigative journalist.

40:25

I'm just curious, how long

40:28

did the fiancé work

40:30

out downstairs? Well, according

40:33

to the, uh,

40:34

the surveillance video, the

40:37

security camera footage, I think he was gone

40:39

about 45 minutes from

40:41

the apartment. So in those 45 minutes,

40:44

Ellen decides to kill herself. Let

40:47

me understand right now,

40:50

the very latest in

40:52

your daughter's investigation, Sandy, is that you are

40:54

asking the mayor to reopen the case.

41:02

Tell me what you hope to achieve. I

41:05

hope to have the investigation

41:08

reopened and give Ellen

41:11

the same rights

41:12

that every other citizen

41:14

in the state of Pennsylvania is entitled to. She

41:17

was a taxpayer. She

41:19

was, you know, had

41:22

a wonderful life ahead of her. And

41:25

this deserves to be looked at. I

41:30

mean, they didn't even take that yellow tape

41:33

and, um,

41:34

cordon off the crime scene.

41:39

The botched law

41:41

enforcement behavior

41:44

is a special thing.

41:46

It's beyond reproach.

41:48

It's disgusting. Gavin Fish,

41:51

are you absolutely positive

41:54

that the records reveal

41:56

the fiancé's family

41:58

had been donating to the agency? Yeah,

42:01

yeah, and not just when

42:03

he was the Attorney General, but early on

42:05

in his political career as well. Nancy,

42:08

I would just say that

42:11

while I understand that's certainly something

42:13

that raises eyebrows, you

42:16

know, Josh Shapiro raised $15

42:19

million when he ran for Attorney General, $72

42:21

million when he ran for governor.

42:24

So, you know, there are a lot of people

42:27

that donate to his campaign,

42:30

and I think that

42:32

should be considered in this big

42:34

picture. Well, I agree with you. There

42:36

are a lot of people that donate. You're absolutely

42:38

correct.

42:39

But not a lot of those

42:42

donors have their son

42:45

on a death scene, as in this case.

42:49

I'm very curious to find out how much money

42:51

was donated and how far back

42:54

the relationship goes. I know it goes,

42:56

and you're sure, Gavin, it goes back all the way to

42:58

high school. The relationship

42:59

goes back to high school, and to

43:02

that point, to me it's less about

43:05

the donations and more about the personal

43:07

relationship. They're family

43:09

friends. They've known each other since at least 1991

43:12

when I saw pictures of them

43:15

in high school together.

43:17

When you say them, you're talking about the

43:19

fiance's

43:20

father?

43:20

I'm talking about Kimberly

43:23

Schwartzman, who is the fiance's

43:26

first cousin. They all

43:28

live in a very small

43:30

area on the main line there in Philadelphia.

43:32

It's a very well-to-do place. People

43:35

know each other.