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1:05

The eighties had the general. The

1:07

nineties had John Gilligan. In

1:09

the noughties, it was the reign of

1:12

Martin Marlowe Highland. His

1:14

was a familiar path with success and

1:16

power. And then the

1:18

recklessness he had to go. As

1:21

with him, an innocent young man doing

1:23

an honest day's work died. Crime

1:26

World presents Caught in the

1:29

Crossfire, the unsolved murders of

1:31

Coke Kingpin Marlowe Highland and

1:33

innocent Anthony Campbell. Available

1:36

now on all podcast platforms.

1:41

He lets me off at a TA truck stop

1:43

right in Nashville, right off the highway. And

1:45

I'm in the shower and I

1:47

start thinking about where I am. And

1:50

I realize I am in the truck

1:52

stop where two women were killed and

1:54

dumped by a notorious

1:57

trucker killer named Bruce Mendenhall.

2:00

I got out of the shower, I got on my phone on the internet,

2:02

and I'm like, God darn it, I'm right

2:04

here where they were killed. I'm

2:06

Nicola Tallant, and you're listening to Crime

2:08

World, a podcast about

2:10

criminals, drugs, and the sins of

2:13

the underworld, in Ireland and

2:15

across the globe. The former

2:17

deputy head of counterintelligence at the

2:19

FBI, Frank Figuizuli, has spent his

2:21

life tracking down spies and keeping

2:23

some of America's biggest secrets. Following

2:26

his retirement from the Bureau, he

2:28

began investigating a very specific type of

2:31

serial killer, long-haul truckers.

2:33

In his new book, Long Haul, Frank

2:35

takes to the road as he delves

2:38

into profiling the suspects in a series

2:40

of serial killings in which the victims

2:42

were found adjacent to highways across the

2:44

United States. Speaking to me

2:46

at Crime Con, Frank tells me about his

2:48

career, his new book, and exactly what he

2:50

thinks of the Kinnahan cartel. I'm

2:52

Code Meney, and this is Crime World, a

2:55

podcast from sundayworld.com. So,

2:58

I suppose we'll start at the very beginning, and I want to

3:00

let you know, how did you come to join the FBI? Because

3:05

you originally had a degree in literature, right?

3:08

True, yeah. So,

3:12

I wanted to be an FBI agent since I was

3:14

11 years old, and the story with

3:16

that, I think, is really geared around where I lived

3:18

at the time, which

3:21

was I was in the greater New York

3:23

news market. And

3:26

at the time I was a kid, the

3:28

FBI was busting the mob, the mafia, and

3:31

they were on the news all the time. And I

3:34

thought, who are these good guys, fighting

3:38

the bad guys, with

3:40

suits and ties and brain power? I kind of

3:43

like that. And then, I was raised in a family

3:46

that was very much a family that had a

3:48

foundation of values, but

3:51

also very much taught that there was good in this world,

3:53

and there was evil in the world. And

3:57

you wanted to be sure you were on the side of good, just,

3:59

and good. and

4:01

fairness. So that caused me

4:03

at age 11 to write a letter to

4:05

the head of the FBI in Connecticut. Wow.

4:09

The head of the field office there, and he

4:11

wrote me back. Wow. And

4:13

he said, hey, kid, you know, stay with

4:15

good grades. Here's what you need to

4:17

do, and you know, get back to me in 15 years.

4:20

Wow. Well, one of

4:22

the ways to get into the FBI back then, and still

4:24

now, was to go to law school. So

4:26

I did get an English literature degree.

4:29

That, and of course my parents were like, what

4:31

are you going to do with an English lit degree?

4:35

I since have written two books, but they

4:37

aren't a life test. They have seen that

4:39

happen. They would have enjoyed

4:41

that. But I did go to law school. And

4:43

in law school, I figured I'm

4:45

either going to become a prosecutor, again, with

4:47

the bad guys and the side of justice. And your suit. Yeah,

4:50

that's right, the suit and tie. Or

4:53

I'm going to go to the law enforcement side. And of

4:55

course there's no better, really, in federal law enforcement

4:57

than the FBI. And

5:00

it worked out. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty

5:03

well. Yeah, it is. So you worked in, I suppose, we'll

5:05

come on to the book in a little bit, which is

5:07

I think a very different, maybe not a step away,

5:10

but a step to the side from

5:12

counterintelligence, which is what you did. What

5:15

is a counterintelligence division? Because

5:17

we don't have anything like that in Ireland that we know of. That

5:20

you know of. That you know of. Yes, that's right.

5:22

That's probably a good thing. So look, the

5:25

easy way of describing counterintelligence

5:27

is that we catch spies.

5:30

Yeah. We catch spies. And

5:33

that means we work espionage cases.

5:36

And the job, of course, is what we call the

5:38

three Ds. Detect, deter,

5:41

and defeat foreign intelligence

5:44

services who are working against

5:46

U.S. interests. That means they're

5:48

working here in the United States. And

5:51

they do. This isn't the stuff of just

5:53

movies and James Bond. The United

5:56

States is loaded with foreign intelligence

5:58

officers. Some declare it. declared like

6:01

they're attached to a consulate or

6:03

an embassy and it says on their business

6:05

card, you know military intelligence officer or what

6:08

have you but many many more

6:10

undeclared either working under

6:13

the cover of diplomatic cover like

6:15

oh, I'm the first cultural attaché

6:17

at the consulate But we

6:19

know different Some

6:22

of them not attached to a diplomatic Building

6:25

at all but in

6:27

our penetrating our economy our

6:29

our society Those are

6:31

harder to ferret out but the FBI is

6:34

in addition. Where's two hats, right? The

6:36

FBI is both a law enforcement criminal

6:38

law enforcement agency And

6:41

it's a national security agency that catches spies

6:43

and terrorists two different sides

6:45

of the FBI often working together. I

6:49

I worked counterintelligence early

6:51

in my career Then

6:54

became a supervisor and rose

6:56

up through the leadership ranks to a very

6:58

senior level lead field offices and squads But

7:01

ended my career as the head of

7:04

counterintelligence for the entire FBI Which

7:06

I thought was really a dream come true for someone

7:08

who started their career in counter-intel To

7:11

end it that way and I

7:13

that meant I was in charge of all

7:15

espionage investigations across the United States government That's

7:17

like an incredibly thrilling job by the

7:19

sounds of it like a very exciting

7:22

I'm sure people and myself are like

7:24

I'm extremely curious about what a day

7:26

in the life of That

7:29

job would be like for you What sort of would

7:31

your typical things be that you would do if

7:33

you're a counterintelligence agent in the

7:35

FBI? I you know obviously at a senior

7:38

level running things you're a headquarters bureaucrat running

7:40

programs across the world if you were signed

7:42

on the street to counter-intel You

7:45

are literally Trying to ferret

7:47

out the spies Often

7:49

surveillance is involved often electronic surveillance

7:52

and intercepts Which is where you

7:54

get some pretty good lead information,

7:57

but also physical surveillance of suspect

7:59

suspected spies and watch, the

8:02

FBI has special teams of people who

8:04

watch suspected spies because they're highly

8:06

trained, these FBI teams, to see

8:09

something that you or I might

8:11

not see happen. Like a

8:13

dead, a dead, a dead brush pass, a

8:16

dead drop, a

8:19

signal mark of chalk on a

8:21

telephone pole that says I'm

8:23

filling the drop or don't come out

8:25

today. All of

8:28

that might elude most of us,

8:30

but the highly trained surveillance experts

8:32

know what they're looking at. And

8:35

then of course the ultimate in the

8:37

counter-intel game is to recruit

8:40

a foreign spy to work for

8:43

the West, to work for Team America

8:45

and our allies. That is

8:47

the ultimate. Some people say,

8:50

oh Frank, isn't that about, isn't the ultimate

8:52

to arrest and handcuff a spy? I

8:55

look at it differently. I say that's a

8:57

failure. If it comes down

8:59

to arresting a spy and trying them in

9:01

court, you've actually failed

9:03

because the ultimate goal is to

9:05

recruit them in place. We

9:08

call that an RIP, a recruitment in

9:10

place. And they could work for years

9:12

at their job in the Kremlin

9:15

in Moscow or in Beijing and

9:18

report back to you on what's

9:20

going on. That's the ultimate goal. That's

9:24

fascinating. That is something again

9:26

to me that's like Hollywood film sort of

9:28

thing. You don't realize that this is an

9:30

actual job that people do. When

9:33

you started doing the job, were you kind of

9:35

getting with excitement or was it kind of a,

9:37

what was it like? I was young and

9:39

excited. They could have put me

9:42

in any work the FBI does. Let me

9:44

tell you, the FBI has priorities. Counter-terrorism,

9:47

preventing the next act of

9:49

terrorism is the number one

9:51

priority, but the number two

9:53

priority is counter-intelligence. Catching spies,

9:55

protecting America's secrets. Right. And

9:58

protecting America's secrets. You know, it

10:00

used to be entirely military, you know, we

10:02

that's what we were defending But

10:05

I'm here to tell you today's secrets are

10:07

not just military secrets that other countries want

10:09

other countries want our trade

10:12

secrets intellectual property the latest

10:16

Widget that some company American companies doing

10:18

differently than anybody else. It's

10:20

an economic situation right now as well

10:23

so I was thrilled to be assigned

10:25

very early to counter-intel it is a Thinking

10:28

man's and woman's game. It's like a

10:30

chess game, but a chess game with

10:33

deadly consequences If

10:36

they get the secrets that end up hurting

10:39

us in a war killing

10:42

someone catching a

10:44

source of yours and Killing

10:47

that source. It's

10:49

a deadly chess game. So I was thrilled to do

10:51

it early in my career People

10:54

need to understand. Wait a minute. You were assigned to

10:56

a field office. My first office

10:58

was Atlanta, Georgia Are you telling me

11:00

the FBI has a squad of agents

11:03

in Atlanta, Georgia working counter intelligence? Yes,

11:06

they do and in fact, I'm here to tell you Every

11:09

one of the 56 field offices

11:11

in America has a count at

11:13

least one counter intelligence squad Because

11:15

our secrets are everywhere Yeah,

11:18

and you know, it's it's a big tease that I'm

11:20

a journalist sitting here with you and I don't get

11:22

it Probably I can't ask you all the questions. I

11:24

would love to ask some of which I couldn't answer

11:26

probably no, I know I

11:28

know I know and I could just I can I

11:30

can feel myself if I was listening to this screaming

11:33

asking max Ask him why and but

11:35

let's talk a little bit about I suppose

11:37

you you know You're talking about counter intelligence

11:39

with terrorism And I suppose one thing that

11:42

we speak a lot about on our podcast

11:44

on crime world We'll talk about is drugs

11:46

and drug trafficking and narcotics and at the

11:48

moment, you know, three of Ireland's Finest

11:51

and I put that in air quotes

11:53

drug lords are wanted by the FBI

11:56

five million dollars for any information I'm

11:58

in the Kinnahan family When

12:00

it comes to counterintelligence and narcotics,

12:02

how does that work? I mean...

12:05

Well, that's interesting. Our

12:07

focus, of course, is on

12:10

foreign intelligence officers, foreign government,

12:12

state-sponsored spying. But

12:14

of course, we get into individual spying. Americans

12:17

volunteer to spy for adversaries

12:19

at an alarming rate, largely

12:22

because they're greedy, but

12:24

also because of their ego. But when you're talking about

12:26

mixing, counter-intel,

12:29

counter-terrorism, and

12:31

drugs on a global level,

12:33

there are connections. So

12:36

for example, oftentimes

12:39

foreign intelligence services

12:41

will get into the

12:43

drug business or look the other way

12:46

in exchange for something of value.

12:48

So let's say, for example, that

12:51

Iran needs weapons. And

12:56

there's a drug cartel somewhere in

12:58

South America that has their hands

13:00

on a lot of weapons. And

13:03

so maybe that drug cartel

13:05

will exchange their weapons for

13:07

some poppy opium

13:10

that comes from Afghanistan that Iran could help

13:12

with. Examples of a

13:15

kind of a bartering system that can go on.

13:17

And also there are freelance people. Smugglers,

13:21

for example, are often

13:23

human smugglers, which is a

13:25

huge problem in the United States, on the southern border.

13:29

They will take all comers. And if you pay the money,

13:31

they'll do anything. So if they can smuggle people, they

13:34

can smuggle drugs. And very

13:36

often those smugglers do work.

13:38

There's a huge smuggling, organized

13:41

crime facet to

13:43

human smuggling, where the

13:45

drug cartels are behind that smuggling operation.

13:47

Because smuggling people and drugs are pretty

13:49

much the same thing. Big money in

13:52

both. They don't care if

13:54

they get caught once in a while. Who cares? These

13:56

people are expendable. So it's there. And

13:58

you're telling me about the evidence. The

14:00

FBI wants, is looking for

14:03

these Irish drug members, drug cartel

14:05

members. When you talk about a $5 million

14:07

reward, that's

14:09

virtually unheard of. So that

14:12

means these are major, major players if

14:14

that kind of money is being offered.

14:18

Yeah. Without a doubt, I mean, they're in

14:20

Dubai at the moment. Garde in

14:22

Ireland have been in Dubai. There's kind of this pure

14:24

campaign going on. Don't know if we'll ever be handed

14:26

them back. Don't know if the US will ever be

14:28

handed them over. I mean, the time is ticking down

14:30

on them, but

14:32

it is something that we are

14:35

watching with keen interest. Yeah, this

14:37

is often solved on a diplomatic

14:39

level. Yeah. Particularly with a Middle

14:41

Eastern country and might be something

14:43

involving an exchange. You know, you

14:45

give me these folks, we give

14:48

you this. Those are

14:50

tough decisions made at the State Department. Yeah.

14:53

And the White House. that Ireland would

14:55

have anything to offer, you

14:57

know, in exchange for these. But

15:00

if we're talking about the US prosecuting, we

15:03

probably have something to offer, particularly

15:05

to the UAE, Dubai. Oh,

15:08

absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean,

15:10

there's no extradition. Extradition

15:13

treaty in place. I know. That's

15:15

probably why they're there. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

15:19

So your new book, like I said,

15:21

it's not really a step away from what you're

15:23

doing. I'd say it's more of a shuffle to

15:25

the side because it's all about the highway serial

15:27

killers. What

15:30

is the Highway Serial Killings Initiative? Because this is

15:32

something I've never heard of. And like you said,

15:34

many of the attendees here at CrimeCon who are

15:36

avid crime followers may have never heard of it

15:38

either. Well, I'll go a step further. I

15:41

spent 25 years as an FBI

15:43

special agent and my work never

15:45

really caused me to look at

15:48

the Highway Serial Killings Initiative. So I

15:51

found out about this when I bumped into

15:53

a woman who said, yeah, I work for

15:55

the FBI. And I was retired. I've

15:58

been retired. And I so. What do

16:00

you do at the Bureau? And she said I'm

16:02

the head of the highway serial killings initiative And

16:05

I said I have no idea

16:07

what you're talking about and she proceeded

16:09

to give me some startling numbers Here's

16:11

some numbers Murders

16:17

of women Along American

16:19

highways in just the last few decades and

16:21

that number is just what the FBI knows

16:23

of not what they don't know Those

16:26

women victims tend to be at like a 98% level

16:30

sex trafficking victims More

16:35

startling the FBI says with high

16:37

confidence that these murders are largely

16:39

committed by long-haul truckers 200

16:43

of those 850

16:46

cases are considered unsolved and

16:48

pending and the

16:50

FBI says they're working 450

16:54

suspects right now that means

16:56

the potential of over 400

16:59

homicidal maniacs that are

17:01

out there on our nation's highways We

17:05

know that Long-haul

17:07

trucker is the number one

17:09

profession of serial killers number

17:12

one Wow not teachers not accountants long-haul

17:15

truckers right and the Reality

17:19

is that there are already 25

17:23

long-haul truckers currently in prison

17:25

for multiple homicides and still

17:27

these cases go on Killing

17:30

continues and the historic

17:32

cases are still not all solved Even

17:35

though 25 truckers are actually

17:38

serving time. So this book is about

17:42

That highway serial killings initiative if

17:44

the FBI first publicly acknowledged the

17:47

initiative In 2009

17:49

only in 2009 because they had

17:51

to because the cases were so out of

17:53

control that they needed the public's help Where

17:56

did it all start? It started in the

17:59

heartland of America in Oklahoma,

18:02

where a female crime analyst for

18:05

a state police agency, this is

18:08

a long time ago now, we're

18:11

talking late 90s, early 2000s, she

18:15

realizes that there are

18:17

young ladies from Oklahoma who

18:20

are turning up dead across the United

18:22

States. She further realizes

18:24

that many of those women are sex

18:26

trafficked and

18:28

she further theorizes that

18:31

they're all found in close proximity to

18:33

truck stops and that

18:35

truckers are probably the primary suspects.

18:38

Now she starts really alerting

18:40

her leadership in that Oklahoma state agency.

18:44

Now 40 years ago or so, a female

18:46

crime analyst who's making a big noise

18:48

about something might not have

18:50

gotten the attention they'd get today. That's

18:52

just reality. They might get asked to go get

18:55

some more coffee for the detectives, but

18:57

she doesn't do that. This woman is Terri

18:59

Turner, she's a hero in my book. She

19:02

says, look, I'm telling you, we

19:05

have five, six, seven, eight, then

19:07

nine, then 10 murders

19:09

of girls from Oklahoma in

19:12

a span of a few months

19:15

and we've got to do something about

19:17

it. So they say, okay, okay, okay,

19:19

Terri, go ahead and do your suggestion

19:21

of putting out a teletype to detectives

19:23

around the country. If they have similar

19:26

cases, female, possibly sex

19:28

trafficked, maybe a trucker did

19:30

it, found last seen near

19:32

a truck stop or the highway, dumped near a

19:34

highway, go ahead and put that

19:36

out, have your meeting, buy some coffee and donuts. She

19:40

thinks maybe she'll get six or 10 detectives

19:42

to show up. She

19:45

gets dozens of detectives showing up who

19:47

say I have similar cases. She

19:50

then demands that the FBI show up.

19:53

She's been pestering the local FBI office

19:55

and they've been kind of blowing her off quite honestly. They

19:58

don't believe this. They come

20:00

to the meeting, they hear all these cases, and

20:02

they say, okay, you

20:04

have checked the box for serial

20:06

killings. We're in. We're

20:09

in. And that's when they start

20:11

the FBI's Highway Serial Killings Initiative.

20:13

So, like you said, truck drivers,

20:15

number one profession for serial killers,

20:18

is it a case that the job attracts

20:21

a predator thinking, I know how I'm going to do what I

20:23

want to do? Or is

20:25

it like this perfect storm of

20:28

being on the road long

20:30

unsociable hours, you know,

20:32

and that is what makes somebody think,

20:34

oh, maybe I will do this. Or

20:36

is it a mix of both? This

20:38

is the age-old nature versus nurture question.

20:41

Which I absolutely ask in my book.

20:43

I ask a lot of questions in my book

20:46

because I'm an investigator. And I

20:48

put on my investigator hat, I also put

20:50

on a hard hat, and rode

20:52

2,000 miles in a big rig

20:54

to figure out this subculture. And does that make

20:56

me an expert on long haul trucking? No. But

20:59

I wanted to get a feel for this and then I dug into

21:01

the research. So, I asked

21:03

everybody I could about this. Question,

21:07

what makes a serial killer? Do they

21:09

choose long haul driving because they are

21:12

exploiting the jurisdiction? So, you know,

21:14

they're taking a body in one

21:17

police jurisdiction. They

21:19

kill or rape the victim in a

21:21

second police jurisdiction. Remember, we have a

21:23

moving crime scene with his truck. Yeah.

21:25

And then they dump the

21:27

body in a third police jurisdiction.

21:29

That really wreaks havoc with

21:32

the police issues

21:34

of whose case is this?

21:37

Right. Do we care? Does

21:39

this very rural county sheriff's

21:41

office even have detectives, let

21:43

alone homicide detectives, let alone

21:45

intelligence analysts? No, probably

21:47

not. Do they know about

21:50

the FBI's Highway Serial Killings Initiative? Can

21:52

they fill out the 200 question survey

21:54

about their crime scene and get it

21:56

entered so the FBI can help? No.

22:00

So do truckers know that? Yeah,

22:02

I think they do. Who gets attracted

22:04

to long haul trucking? Look,

22:08

there's no question that a

22:10

job won't make you a serial killer.

22:13

But for sure, it can help

22:16

foster, facilitate

22:20

your mindset and your

22:22

anger and resentment. But

22:25

I do believe that there are a certain group of truckers

22:27

that are attracted to the job because they

22:29

are loners, anti-social, aren't

22:33

looking for human engagement. In fact, kind

22:35

of hate human engagement. And

22:38

we know that there are different kinds

22:40

of trucking. So I get into this question. Okay. There's

22:44

different kinds of trucking. They shouldn't be all lumped together. There's

22:47

the dry vanner, which is the guy, or

22:50

gal, who's hauling dry goods, box

22:52

of paper towels across the United

22:54

States. There's,

22:56

I rode flatbed, which means high

22:59

engagement with the load. We are loaded up to 80,000

23:01

pounds when we're full. And

23:06

it's a flatbed trailer. So one day

23:08

we're carrying drywall. It's from a gypsum

23:11

factory. The next day we're carrying aluminum

23:13

rods to make ammunition. The next day

23:15

we're carrying a steel coil called

23:17

a suicide coil that has

23:20

to be chained down precisely. You have to know

23:22

math and physics and weight distribution and points of

23:24

securement. Can I fill up my gas tanks today?

23:26

Or will that put me overweight? Do I have

23:28

too much weight over one axle? That is very

23:30

different than a dry vanner who has

23:33

no mental or physical engagement with the

23:35

load. Okay. Right? And

23:37

then there's everything in between. You've got low buoy trucks,

23:39

which you may have seen, because they have very tall

23:41

loads. So the trailer rides right off the ground. You

23:44

have highly paid hazmat tank drivers. You

23:46

have a reefer trucks, which

23:49

are refrigerated trucks that carry produce, vegetables,

23:51

and fruit. Those, believe it or not,

23:53

those drivers are engaged with their load.

23:55

They are climate control for their load.

23:57

They know the humidity and the talent.

24:00

temperature, no moisture. So you

24:02

can't lump everybody together. But what I theorize

24:04

in the book is if you

24:06

want to narrow down 450 suspects

24:09

to a manageable level, you're probably

24:11

not looking at a

24:13

flat better as much as your

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24:49

This is what I was going to

24:51

ask you. When it comes down to

24:54

that and profiling, I suppose you have

24:56

these original criminal profiling

24:58

where it's unorganized and organized. One is high

25:00

intelligence, one is low intelligence. Not low intelligence,

25:02

but if you had a body and you

25:05

figure out, this is a high intelligence person,

25:07

are you looking at that as a flat

25:09

loader? Is that how that works? You're able

25:11

to break it down? You can look at

25:15

the crime scene, the victimology, which

25:17

is the study of how the victim

25:19

was selected and left. You

25:22

can tell a lot about the killer, how

25:24

smart they are, the knot they

25:26

use to gag or strangle a

25:28

woman. Is that a Navy

25:30

knot? Is there

25:33

some intricacy to that knot? Are

25:35

they making an effort to hide their

25:38

identity, but also have they stolen the ID

25:40

off the victim so it's going to take

25:42

longer to figure out? Some

25:45

of these cases are 30 years before they

25:47

figure out who the victim was because there's

25:49

no ID. Yes,

25:51

you can tell that. I do theorize

25:54

that we're probably dealing more with drive-iners.

25:56

I also think we're probably

25:58

dealing more with owner- operators

26:01

of trucks as opposed to big-time corporate drivers.

26:03

Okay. Who drive for some of the big

26:05

names in the United States, J.B.

26:08

Hunt, Werner, big names you see emblazoned on

26:10

trailers, right, on the highway. Why?

26:14

Those big corporate drivers are highly monitored.

26:17

Trucking is high tech today. Your

26:20

GPS, your navigation system is tracked.

26:22

The company knows your speed, your

26:24

location. It's hard to

26:27

commit crimes. But just as I theorize

26:29

that, I find cases that

26:31

involve corporate truckers who

26:34

park their rig for their mandatory

26:36

federal downtime, 36 hours of downtime

26:38

every week, usually weekend. They

26:41

park the rig at the truck stop. They

26:44

get an Uber. They rent

26:46

a car. They go off and do their

26:48

killing. So you

26:51

can't just say, oh, it can't be a

26:53

corporate driver. They're tracked. They're not

26:55

tracked on their downtime. They're not tracked when

26:57

they get out of that rig. So

27:00

it's tough. I ask a

27:02

similar question of victims. Which

27:04

kind of trafficking victim is

27:06

more likely to be killed?

27:10

And I find out there are three

27:12

kinds of work styles for

27:15

trafficked women. There's

27:17

pimp controlled. Yes,

27:19

they are tightly controlled and monitored, not only by the

27:21

pimp, but by his bottom, his

27:24

deputy pimp, the girl who kind of supervises

27:26

the rest of the stable. This is a

27:28

language I describe in the book. They have

27:30

their own vernacular. So are they

27:33

more likely to be killed because they're so closely monitored? Or

27:35

is it the second work style? So you have pimp controlled.

27:38

You have renegade, which is a

27:40

woman doing this on her own or with a friend,

27:42

no pimp. Then

27:45

you have outlaw, which is

27:47

there's no sex going to happen at all. This

27:49

is a crime waiting to happen. They're going to

27:51

rip off the victim. They

27:54

are the criminal. And they're going to rip the

27:56

trucker off. He's going to lose

27:58

some cash at least. Yeah. Which

28:00

one do you think is more likely

28:02

to get hurt? Now you might say, well, that that

28:05

outlaw sounds like it's dangerous. You're ripping the cash

28:07

off of a trucker. He's going to hurt you.

28:10

No, they don't get hurt that much. You know why? There's

28:13

embarrassment. The trucker is not calling the police

28:15

and saying some, I think a prostitute just

28:17

ripped me off. Right? Yeah. You

28:20

say, well, the pin control, they're tightly monitored. They're

28:22

probably not getting hurt. Nope. They

28:24

get killed almost in equal numbers as

28:26

renegades get killed. So

28:29

it's tough, but I theorize throughout

28:31

the book to try to get

28:34

this narrowed down. And

28:36

just like there's commonalities in serial

28:39

killer truckers, what are

28:41

those commonalities? We talked about their

28:43

backgrounds, their antisocial

28:45

proclivities. There's a lot of

28:47

drug addiction and alcohol abuse

28:50

amongst serial killer truckers. There's

28:53

a lot amongst truckers generally. They have

28:55

to stay awake. They take,

28:58

they self-medicate. They're bored

29:00

often. They take a lot of caffeine or

29:02

something to stay up. And then they have

29:04

to take something to come down at night.

29:07

They must get their sleep. They must

29:09

have reason to take

29:11

something to get to sleep. What

29:14

else about serial killers is common?

29:16

There's two kinds of serial killers,

29:19

just like there's three kinds of trafficking

29:21

victims. Two kinds of truckers, serial killer

29:23

truckers. The kind

29:26

that like to control the outcome.

29:28

This killing is about power and

29:31

control. What does that mean?

29:34

It means they want to prolong

29:36

the torture, the sex abuse,

29:39

the rape as long as possible.

29:42

They like that control. And then

29:45

and only then when they're done with

29:47

that, it could be weeks or months

29:49

in some cases, they

29:51

will then kill. There's

29:54

another kind of serial killer and

29:56

that person's all about the killing, the

29:58

power of life and death. and they

30:00

kill quickly. And very often,

30:02

there's no sex involved at all. They may

30:04

get aroused or get off on the killing,

30:07

but this is not about sex for them.

30:10

This is about killing. And

30:13

they often have deep resentment about

30:15

their childhood, their mother, that it

30:17

seems like they're projecting their anger

30:19

about their mom or absent mom

30:21

onto the woman. These

30:24

are scary, scary people, both of

30:26

those categories. And you

30:29

obviously went on a ride along with the

30:31

trucker for across 2,000 miles. Over 2,000 miles.

30:34

What was that like? What was

30:36

that like for you to have gone from,

30:38

like it's obviously research, but also

30:40

I can imagine the lifestyle was just probably

30:43

a bit of a culture shock? Well,

30:45

for me it was. I mean, this is not a Ritz

30:47

Carlton hotel. I slept in

30:49

the upper berth of the back in the bunk bed

30:51

in the back. We

30:54

ate a lot of our meals in that truck.

30:56

We cooked some meals in the truck. Oh really?

30:59

The driver happens to be a graduate

31:01

of the Culinary Institute of America. Oh

31:03

wow. And he worked as a chef until

31:05

he decided being a chef was not for

31:08

him. And by the way, he could make

31:10

a lot more money in long haul trucking. This is

31:12

a six figure income for some of the better truckers.

31:16

So I was proud to be driving with

31:18

someone who could cook. So we

31:20

had an electric frying pan when

31:22

we had a hot plate. We

31:25

got our groceries at Walmart,

31:28

and we did some of that. We did a

31:30

lot of door dasher grub hub

31:32

ordering to the truck. They come to the

31:34

truck by the way, in

31:36

the parking lot of a truck stop, they'll

31:39

deliver. Wow. Yeah. And so

31:41

as you know, kind of the little kid in me

31:43

was like, this is pretty cool. I

31:45

get to ride high above the traffic. There's

31:48

all these bells and whistles. And

31:51

I like that for about a day. I'd

31:53

say so. I'd say there was novelty war off the

31:55

top. Yeah. And then you're like, I need a

31:57

shower and a hot meal. And

32:00

I'm kind of tired of relieving myself

32:02

in a gallon jug in

32:05

the truck because you don't want to

32:07

stop for the bathroom. And this guy

32:09

had like a, he must

32:11

have had a cast iron bladder because he could go

32:13

forever. Right. Go forever. The other kind

32:15

of thing is I like my coffee in the morning

32:19

and he didn't like coffee. So

32:21

we weren't stopping for coffee until I insisted

32:23

we were. And some of

32:25

the showers I insisted on too. Okay. Yeah.

32:28

One of the most eerie things that happened

32:30

on my journey and a lot of

32:32

strange things happened was we end

32:34

up, at the end

32:36

of my week riding, I

32:39

have to go home. And I didn't know where

32:41

I would end my trip. You

32:44

don't know. That's pretty cool. You don't know

32:46

on a day-to-day basis where you're

32:48

headed. The dispatcher calls you and

32:51

says today you're picking up lumber in

32:53

Wisconsin and you're bringing it to Ohio. You

32:56

don't know that until that dispatch calls. Okay. So I

32:58

didn't know where I would end my trip. I didn't

33:00

know where we'd be every day. We

33:03

were up in lumber country way up north near

33:05

Canada in Wisconsin.

33:07

We've been Ohio, Indiana. We

33:09

were everywhere. But

33:12

I go, okay, at the end of the week, next big city

33:14

with an airport. I got to get off. I

33:17

got to get off and I'll book a flight.

33:19

Yeah. So he goes, okay, next big city coming

33:21

up is Nashville, Tennessee. Oh, wow. Yeah. So right

33:23

here. Yeah. And he

33:26

lets me off at a TA truck stop. It's a

33:28

big truck stop company right in

33:30

Nashville, right off the highway. And

33:33

I get a shower in at the truck stop.

33:36

And I'm in the shower and

33:38

I start thinking about where I am. And

33:41

I realize I am in

33:43

the truck stop where two

33:45

women were killed and dumped by

33:48

a notorious trucker

33:50

killer named Bruce Mendenhall. I

33:53

could not. I got out of the shower.

33:56

I got on my phone and on the internet and I'm like, God

33:58

darn it. This I'm right here where they were. Ironically,

34:01

it's also where Bruce Mendenhall was arrested by

34:04

a Nashville police detective who

34:06

had been surveilling him. And he

34:09

finds the cop walks up to Bruce Mendenhall in the

34:11

rig. He looks at Bruce and he goes,

34:13

are you the guy we're looking for? And

34:17

Bruce Mendenhall shrugs his shoulders and says, did you say so? Okay.

34:22

When they looked in his truck cab, it

34:25

was a torture chamber. There

34:27

was a rifle, duct tape, hand cuffs, sex

34:30

toys, latex gloves, and

34:33

a bag of bloody clothing containing the

34:36

DNA of five women. Wow.

34:39

That's right here where we have crime code

34:41

going on, right here in Nashville. And

34:44

I have story after story of

34:46

that in the book. The

34:48

most heinous killers and killings that

34:51

I've ever heard of, the evil and

34:53

torture. There's a case of one of

34:55

the notorious killers, truckers

34:58

Robert Ben Rhodes. He,

35:00

one of his victims was 14 year old

35:02

Regina Waters. She was hitchhiking with

35:04

her boyfriend outside of Houston, Texas.

35:07

He picked them up, 14 years old. He

35:10

quickly kills the boyfriend. The boyfriend's a speed

35:12

bump in the way. He

35:15

then proceeds on a cross

35:17

country trip with Regina where

35:19

he rapes and tortures her for

35:21

weeks in the truck cab. He

35:24

hangs her from fish hooks from the roof

35:26

of his cab. She's

35:28

finally dumped and killed in

35:30

a abandoned farmhouse in Illinois.

35:34

And I have to tell you, even

35:37

though I've seen some heinous crime scenes

35:39

in my FBI career, mostly blood, guts,

35:41

decomposing bodies, this

35:43

last image, the last

35:46

photo ever taken of Regina alive

35:49

is one of the most ghastly things I've ever seen.

35:51

She's fully clothed. That's not the problem.

35:54

There's no blood or guts,

35:56

but it's the context, not the content.

35:59

The context is She

36:01

knows she's about to get raped or killed again. She's

36:04

gonna get, something bad's about to happen again. She

36:06

has her hands outstretched in front of her like

36:08

she's pleading. The

36:11

look on her face is like, please God, not

36:13

again. And she's dressed in a

36:15

black dress that

36:17

Robert Ben Rhodes made her put on for

36:19

him and high

36:22

heels shoes that he made her put

36:24

on. And her

36:26

hair has been cut extremely short. That's

36:28

all him. Even as

36:30

he kidnapped her, he called her father

36:33

anonymously and said, I've

36:36

made some changes. I cut her hair. And

36:39

that photo, of course, confirmed that.

36:41

The FBI agent assigned to this

36:44

case said that that scene with

36:46

her decomposing body eventually found was

36:50

extremely significant forensically. Because he

36:52

was looking for signatures. You know, we're all looking for the

36:55

signature of a specific killer. That not, that method of tearing

36:57

the clothing, whatever

37:01

that links the crimes. This

37:04

signature that the FBI found was that Regina's pubic

37:07

hair had been shaved prior to death.

37:09

And that was a link

37:11

to all the other killings by Robert Ben

37:14

Rhodes. How many other killings? As many

37:16

as 50. Wow.

37:19

And you were able to, they were to match

37:21

with that. They all had the same signature? They

37:23

almost all had the same signature. Robert Ben Rhodes

37:25

was finally captured by

37:28

an Arizona state trooper who saw

37:31

a big rig with its hazard lights flashing on

37:33

the side of the highway. The

37:36

trooper pulls up behind it. Trooper puts his trooper

37:38

hat on, strolls up to the big rig, and hears a

37:40

woman screaming. The

37:44

woman is shackled in the back of the cab. She's

37:47

naked, except for bedroom

37:49

slippers. And that starts the downfall

37:52

of Robert. Ben

37:54

Rhodes, that's when they realize this

37:57

guy's good for a lot of murders.

37:59

Yeah. And I suppose

38:01

him dressing her up, putting the dress

38:03

and the shoes on, was he making

38:05

her imitate somebody? Or

38:08

was that just- Yeah, the theory there is this has

38:10

something to do with his mother. Okay,

38:12

that's where I was. I hate to keep blaming mom. I'm

38:14

gonna go over that. We don't wanna blame mom all the

38:16

time, do we? You know, I just spoke to Ann Burgess,

38:18

and she was talking about how mothers are always blamed, but

38:20

she was like, you know, what they don't realize is that

38:22

there was an absent father. Yes. And

38:25

the mother was trying to be their mother

38:27

and father. Yes, I'm with Ann. I

38:29

think the father plays into these far more

38:31

than we realize. Exactly, yeah, yeah, you know.

38:34

But you spoke to, obviously, a long-haul trucker.

38:36

You also spoke to some of the survivors

38:39

of long-haul trucker serial killers. What is the

38:41

most important thing that you learned from them

38:43

that you were able to take into your

38:45

research? So first of

38:47

all, I had to abandon my biases. We

38:50

all may have in our head certain ideas

38:53

about who becomes a trafficking victim.

38:56

Namely, it couldn't be anybody

38:58

in my family. It couldn't be anybody in

39:00

my network of friends or neighbors or relatives.

39:03

Certainly not. It's somebody

39:05

else. What's wrong? The

39:08

women I talked to who survived being

39:10

trafficked to truckers, one of them

39:12

was a preacher's kid, daughter

39:14

of a pastor. Another

39:16

one was a Midwest

39:19

American girl who went to college,

39:22

had some law enforcement in her family.

39:25

Very bright, very bright people. So you

39:27

gotta throw out your ideas about this.

39:30

The mean, vulnerable people. Yeah, well, I

39:34

wanna educate people who say, I

39:36

don't need to read this book or worry about

39:39

trafficking because my kid would never fall prey to

39:41

this. You're wrong. And

39:44

here's what you need to look

39:46

for because there's commonalities in killers and there's commonalities in

39:48

victims. The

39:50

experts that I interviewed, and boy, did I interview some

39:52

of the top experts in the country, they told me,

39:55

look for these commonalities. And as I'm talking to

39:58

these women, the checklist is... I'm

40:00

checking off the boxes in my head. Oh

40:02

my God, the experts are right. What

40:05

are those things? Early

40:07

childhood trauma, often in the form of

40:09

unwanted touching or sexual abuse. Number

40:12

one. Number two, there's

40:14

kind of a tower of trauma that stacks up.

40:17

It's not just divorce. It's not just domestic

40:19

violence in the home, but

40:21

it's suicide, early death of

40:24

a parent or loved one. And

40:26

then you've got this early

40:29

exposure to drugs, often starting with

40:31

marijuana. But they

40:33

tell me, and I know this is controversial in the

40:35

United States, but these women told

40:38

me marijuana was their gateway drug to

40:41

harder drugs. I know a lot

40:43

of people don't like to hear that, but that's what they told me. And

40:45

it went to OxyContin, a lot of Oxy,

40:48

Oxy 80s, which they would crush for

40:51

a faster high easily. You can get

40:53

Oxy easier on the street here than

40:55

you can get heroin. And

40:57

it's cheaper. But they

40:59

did use heroin and they used meth. And

41:02

then the really bad decisions

41:04

about boyfriends. Oh my God,

41:07

a series of bad boyfriends,

41:10

sometimes introduced. This is

41:12

where people say, well, I wouldn't happen to

41:14

my kid or my... Well, you're

41:17

introduced by someone you know and

41:19

trust to someone who's gonna groom

41:21

and eventually recruit you into trafficking.

41:25

Today, that moves online. Today,

41:29

the grooming and

41:31

recruitment, boy parents really need to pay attention

41:33

to what their kids are doing online because

41:36

it's happening and you won't even see it. Icons,

41:42

emojis are used instead of words. And

41:45

that friend of a friend and your brother's

41:47

older friend and your sister's buddy, cousin,

41:50

uncle is on there. And,

41:53

hey, grooming, you're great. How about

41:55

this gift? Come out with us

41:58

and eventually the grooming. and the

42:00

recruitment happens, and the drugs cause

42:03

the judgment to go out the

42:05

window. Yeah. Out the window.

42:07

Now you're just living for the drugs. And

42:10

if you're already having sex anyway, these women have told

42:12

me this, the rationalization was, I'm already having sex, I

42:14

might as well make money for it. I

42:16

might as well get paid. And that's certainly the boyfriend or

42:18

pimp telling you this. And then

42:20

this kind of pimp guy, this pimp figure,

42:23

who is now the sole source of your

42:25

affection and the

42:27

ego stroke you're getting, and often

42:29

your source of drugs, and

42:31

your loyalty is to him. This

42:34

happens very rapidly. And

42:36

getting out, I

42:38

ask the experts who do some great work

42:41

with rehab centers and homes

42:43

and residential facilities for women coming out

42:45

of trafficking, I ask them, what's the

42:47

magic? What's the answer? What

42:50

buttons do you press to get a woman out of the trafficking

42:52

trap? And they look at me and they go, there's

42:54

no magic here at all. We don't do very much at all.

42:56

You know what we do? We wait for

42:59

them to be ready. We

43:01

tell them we're here. We give

43:03

them the business card. Call

43:05

us when you're ready to get out and

43:07

escape. That's how it

43:09

works best. And I talked

43:11

to two women who now are out

43:14

and are running resource centers for women

43:16

like them. That's

43:18

incredible. They're doing great work. There's great

43:20

hope in that. The

43:23

other thing I focused on is the partnerships

43:26

of those groups and organizations that help with

43:29

the police departments. There are progressive police

43:31

departments now that are saying

43:33

we get it. The

43:35

idea of handcuffing a victim, a

43:38

trafficking victim, and treating her like a

43:40

criminal isn't working. What does

43:43

that get you? They turn

43:45

around, they get bailed out. You know who they get

43:47

bailed out by? Their pimp. Who

43:49

again is the hero. And

43:52

so all you're doing is driving them closer

43:54

to the pimp. The only one who cares

43:56

about me, he bailed me out of jail

43:58

tonight. The other way

44:00

to handle it that's very successful, and it's being

44:02

done throughout the United States, including Las Vegas and

44:05

Phoenix, is to go,

44:07

look, I'm not arresting you today. I

44:10

have with me a social worker who

44:12

I partner with. What

44:15

do you need to get out from under

44:17

this situation right now? Or

44:19

right now? Yeah. I need to get away

44:21

from my pet. We have an apartment

44:23

for you or we have a shelter. Well,

44:26

I need diapers for my baby. You

44:29

can do that. We have it. Bring

44:31

your baby with you. We have the diapers.

44:33

I really want to be a hair stylist or paralegal

44:35

and I need a certificate. We

44:37

have people in the community who will get you that training for

44:39

free. That

44:41

works. And then once that

44:43

trust has been developed, guess

44:46

what? They now start giving up their pimp

44:49

and giving the intelligence about the

44:51

organization. He's got 12 women in

44:53

his stable. He takes us

44:55

to the Super Bowl, wherever that happens every

44:57

year, to traffic us at the Super Bowl.

45:00

He takes us to the Republican convention

45:03

every four years. You

45:05

start gathering that intel when you build the trust.

45:07

So I suppose a part of

45:10

your work with this unit

45:12

or your research is the unit. Also, steel

45:15

kind of comes back into that

45:17

intelligence. Look,

45:19

intelligence is a fancy word for actionable

45:22

information. And that's what every cop is

45:24

looking for, right? I don't care

45:26

if it's an FBI agent. I don't care if it's

45:28

a CIA officer overseas. It's all about gathering

45:30

the information that you can use. And

45:33

that's what cops want. And when you show detectives,

45:35

vice detectives particularly, who work

45:37

sex crimes and prostitution, if

45:40

you go, look, I could get you every

45:42

pimp in town, you could

45:44

roll up organizations that traffic people here.

45:48

How can you do that? If

45:50

you partner with his social services organization over

45:52

here, they'll tell

45:55

you who's being trafficked and

45:57

they'll work with you to develop trust with

45:59

those ladies. Mm-hmm, and you will take

46:01

down those peps and when they

46:03

see the light it does work. Mm-hmm.

46:05

Yeah. Yeah, fantastic Well, Frank food losing. Thank

46:07

you very much. Yes, my pleasure You've

46:11

been listening to crime world a

46:13

podcast from Sunday world calm produced

46:15

by Ian Mulaney and edited by

46:17

me Nicola talent research

46:19

assistant is Clodham Eney if

46:22

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