4:00

Seriously, we covered it a couple years ago,

4:02

so I was shocked that there's

4:04

not more out about it because

4:06

it's pretty crazy. It's the

4:09

hardest thing is to pick the cases. Even

4:11

then, because we do unsolved, that

4:14

narrows it down a little bit further, but then

4:16

the longer we do this, the harder it

4:18

is to pick, in my mind. Right.

4:20

I imagine that it's hard to find,

4:22

especially when you're covering only unsolved cases,

4:25

ones that have more than 10 minutes

4:28

worth of information. The

4:30

ones that only have 10 minutes worth of

4:32

information, sometimes it's more important to get those

4:34

out there because obviously nobody's talking about them,

4:37

so they're falling away from people's ears and

4:39

their eyes and they're not thinking about those

4:41

cases. But I mean, it's really hard.

4:44

Crime lines is kind of a longer show, so

4:46

I have the problem that sometimes I'll find a

4:48

case and there really is only 20, 25

4:51

minutes worth of information. If

4:54

I come up with that, I usually release those

4:56

as bonus episodes, but I mean, it's

4:59

tricky. It is. That's

5:01

why we have so many episodes of ours that

5:03

are shorter because it's, well,

5:05

this deserves due diligence or

5:08

it deserves our due diligence of sharing

5:10

this information, but this

5:12

is the very little information that's available.

5:15

With them all being unsolved, us

5:18

getting decent information from law enforcement

5:20

or things like that is slim

5:22

pickings because they're always active cases

5:24

and they're not willing to give

5:26

us much. Usually an

5:28

incident report, if we're lucky, rarely

5:31

any in-depth information.

5:34

One of the things with these cases that we're

5:37

going to talk about is I know you're victim-centered.

5:39

I always try to give back story about

5:41

the victim so people see them not just

5:43

as the worst thing that ever happened to

5:45

them, but as a whole person. But

5:48

because of the lack of coverage, the

5:51

first case we're going to talk about is

5:53

Dolores Aliauts and I looked up

5:55

her obituary and it basically was like name,

5:58

date, parents, names, brothers. that

12:00

like they once did. So

12:02

there has to be something more for

12:04

them to automatically kind of close in

12:06

on those two professions.

12:10

One of the things they also said is

12:12

they believe he may have cut himself, but

12:14

they didn't say that they found male DNA

12:16

at the scene or they found his blood.

12:18

So I'm not sure if they're saying he

12:20

may have cut himself just because if you

12:22

stab someone 55 times, it's

12:25

such a graphic thing to think about. And

12:27

I hate thinking about it. But if you've

12:29

ever washed dishes and you have a wet

12:31

knife in your hand, it's slippery. When you

12:33

stab someone 55 times, that

12:35

knife is getting wet and

12:38

slippery. And people regularly cut

12:40

themselves during stabbings. It's

12:43

possible he did that. The

12:46

fire, especially if it was

12:48

on her clothes or her

12:50

body, may have destroyed

12:52

if he did leave DNA behind. Yeah,

12:55

very true. And I know perpetrators set

12:57

these fires to cover up evidence, but

12:59

I'm like, I feel like that just

13:01

brings so much more attention to it.

13:03

I mean, at the same time, you

13:05

are covering up evidence, but you are

13:07

bringing attention to it right

13:09

away versus if you just left. Especially

13:12

in these cases of these older women living

13:15

alone. Honestly, if he had just walked out,

13:17

how soon would they have found Dolores when

13:19

her male piled up? When you know, nobody

13:21

brought in the paper for a few days.

13:24

I mean, I don't think she

13:26

would have been, her body would have been found so quickly

13:28

if there was not a fire. Agreed.

13:30

Agreed. Having the timeline is so

13:32

significant, a very narrow timeline. And

13:34

so the fact that a

13:37

fire was set makes it like, oh,

13:39

they know exactly when she was killed

13:41

and can narrow down a lot of

13:43

information based off of that. It

13:46

also wasn't a small fire. It was a

13:48

large fire, like a two alarm fire that

13:50

required the big truck that had to bring

13:52

in the big, the big water hose with

13:54

the ladder from the top. Huge, huge fire.

13:57

So there's got to be some sort of other

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21:07

did not use the word gadfly in

21:09

your episode. I did not. I

21:12

absolutely used it because I was like, were

21:14

these articles written in the 1930s? This

21:17

is amazing. But yeah, she,

21:20

I mean, that's pretty much how she was

21:22

being portrayed in every article, wouldn't you agree

21:24

that she was just this critic of the

21:26

government? She was. And she

21:28

would do her due diligence at making

21:31

sure they were walking a fine line

21:34

in her community. I

21:36

don't know how like broad she

21:38

would get if it was, you

21:40

know, United States government as well,

21:42

but I know definitely in her

21:44

town, she was meticulous at checking

21:46

everything that the local government did

21:48

down to a fine-tuned comb about

21:50

the financials, making sure a penny

21:52

was where accounted for. She

21:55

would go and get the look over to

21:57

City Council minutes, you know, they have to

21:59

post the. She

24:00

was harmless. She cared a lot

24:03

about issues. She cared about racial

24:05

justice. One of the things that

24:07

got her really into the local government was

24:10

when a police officer in T-NEC shot a

24:12

black teenager. That's what really

24:14

got her started with going. She cared

24:16

about the environment. She

24:18

cared about how they treated employees, like when

24:21

they'd want to bring in contractors. She's like,

24:23

this just feels like you're pushing out our

24:25

employees. And then she didn't

24:27

like spending, you know, she was very anti-dense. She

24:30

was very anti-wasteful spending. So she

24:32

would go and she'd talk about those things. She

24:34

cared a lot. Yeah, it

24:36

just seems like she loved her

24:38

community and she wanted the best

24:40

for it. And

24:42

she was going to do her the work

24:44

to make sure everything was good for her

24:46

community. And I love that, honestly. There's

24:48

not enough people like that anymore. The

24:51

thing that really surprises me about her is

24:54

she's someone who cares very much about people

24:56

and had like zero relationships with people. When

24:59

the Gulf War broke out in 91,

25:02

she started going to anti-war protests

25:04

where she met the people at

25:06

those protests, the Quakers. They're always at

25:09

those protests. And so she started

25:11

attending their services. But

25:13

the political activism does not go into

25:15

their services. That's left at the door.

25:18

That was hard for Joan. And so she'd go and she'd

25:20

want to talk about all these political issues because she found

25:22

like-minded people. But that church

25:24

within their walls was not the place.

25:27

So she ended up feeling on

25:29

the outside and she stopped going. And I think

25:32

that is something- I think she had a hard

25:34

time fitting in. It was definitely

25:36

not the platform for her. She was

25:39

looking for a group of

25:41

people that were willing to discuss these

25:43

issues and have more of a collaborative

25:45

effort. But that particular place

25:47

was not it. So

25:50

she was very private about her life

25:52

other than her political views. Literally

25:55

everybody in town knew her political views. It's

25:57

so interesting to have this woman who was

25:59

just such a- a loner. She didn't

26:01

speak with her family. Her sister

26:03

used to write to her, but Mary ended

26:06

up with a neurological condition towards the

26:08

end of her life, so she couldn't

26:10

write letters anymore. So they just completely

26:12

fell out of contact. She was

26:14

not in contact with her nephews at the time of her

26:16

death. So she really

26:18

had nobody, but literally everybody in town knew who

26:20

she was. When

26:23

she died, it was in the New York

26:25

Times. I mean, it's just such an interesting

26:27

kind of dichotomy of a life. And

26:30

I find her as a

26:32

human being so fascinating. So

26:35

fascinating. But of course, we

26:37

wouldn't know anything about Joan Davis if

26:39

something terrible didn't happen on August 17

26:41

of 2010. And I don't know if

26:43

you guys want to go ahead and cover that a little bit. Sure.

26:46

On August 17, 2010, at around 10 50 p.m. Joan lived on

26:48

Alpine Drive and yet another house

26:54

fire broke out. It was there

26:56

that they found a body inside again,

26:58

which is very much like Dolores. And

27:01

unfortunately, they had to use dental records

27:03

to confirm that it was Joan. She

27:06

also had died from a combination of blunt

27:09

force trauma and multiple stab wounds. But

27:12

something that's a little bit different is Joan

27:14

was bound at her hands and feet before

27:16

this fire was set, which

27:18

Joan sounds like she would be a

27:20

little bit more vocal if someone was

27:23

attacking her than Dolores. So perhaps that

27:25

was precautionary measures for her perpetrator because

27:29

she's going to run out and make some noise. That

27:31

was 100 percent my thought

27:33

is that just in what

27:35

I know of their personalities, like someone

27:38

could come into Dolores' house and she

27:40

might not fight back. But I can't imagine

27:43

Joan didn't have a frying pan in her

27:45

hand as soon as she saw someone in

27:47

her house. Like I just see

27:49

Joan not even thinking twice about fighting

27:52

back. Yeah. And in this case, I

27:55

don't necessarily believe a person could

27:57

pretend to be a landscaping company

27:59

or a realtor to get

28:02

access to her house because she was

28:04

so private. Exactly. So he

28:06

might have had he she might have

28:08

had to break actually break into Jones

28:10

house. I also feel like Joan would

28:12

know every licensed landscaper and real estate

28:14

agent because she has gone through the

28:16

city records and would know every person

28:19

so if someone that she hadn't recognized

28:21

before she would not have been opening

28:23

that door. And it's interesting because

28:25

she had a sign on her door. This

28:27

is how I found out about the Quaker

28:30

Association that she had is because

28:32

the sign said friends for peace. So

28:34

I screenshotted the sign and I

28:36

did a reverse Google image search to figure out

28:38

where it came from. And it's on the Quakers

28:40

website. And that's that sent me down the rabbit

28:43

hole of how I found out she went to

28:45

the Quaker church for a little bit anyway, a

28:48

little glimpse into my ridiculous research

28:50

process. But she has a

28:52

sign that says friends for peace. So

28:54

I think anyone breaking in would not

28:56

expect to find Joan Davis. Like I

28:58

mean, she cared a lot about peace, but

29:01

I think she would have protected herself. I

29:03

agree. Agreed. And I was gonna ask you

29:05

about the Quaker aspect of it

29:07

because I didn't find that I knew she had

29:09

that sign on there, but I didn't find the

29:11

Quaker aspect. And I actually had asked Whitney what

29:13

a Quaker was earlier. But yeah, so

29:16

that's definitely an interesting aspect of the

29:18

case that I didn't even find. I

29:21

think it just gave me another glimpse into

29:23

who she was, you know, it doesn't really

29:25

have anything to do with anything. I do

29:27

not think the Quakers killed her, but just

29:30

that connection. But also she found like minded

29:32

people, but she still didn't feel like she

29:35

fit in because she's

29:37

just a different kind of person. Like

29:39

I said, she fascinates me. I

29:41

do think it's interesting how quickly rumors

29:44

grew around Joan, though, because she was

29:46

so good at digging in deep and

29:48

finding all of the nooks and crannies

29:50

of where did this penny go? And

29:53

where did that penny go? Or asking

29:55

those difficult questions that the rumors saying

29:57

that she uncovered something sinister and some

30:00

conspiracy theories for that to immediately

30:02

come forward after her death. I

30:04

found that interesting. Yeah,

30:06

that was the main rumor. And you can

30:09

see why. I mean, it was her entire,

30:12

she made a career out of it, out

30:14

of keeping an eye on the government, but

30:16

she never made it on the inside. She

30:18

had run for the council a couple of

30:20

times in the 90s, never

30:23

got elected, which is actually the

30:25

only reason people knew anything about her education

30:27

was because you kind of disclosed that sort

30:29

of thing when you're campaigning. But she

30:32

had done that, but she had never been

30:34

in a position where she would have seen

30:36

something. Every single thing she had access to

30:38

was a public record. Every single

30:40

thing in there anyone else could have found. I think

30:43

people were grasping at straws to try to

30:45

understand it, but also feel safe in their

30:47

neighborhood because if Joan living

30:49

in a nice house in a nice

30:51

neighborhood wasn't safe, then who was? Exactly.

30:55

It's definitely scary. This

30:57

case also went cold, just

31:00

like Delores' case. And in the news,

31:02

I'm sure you saw in the newspaper

31:04

archives, the attempts to link these two

31:06

cases was pretty big. And

31:10

the police, I'm like, get some consistency

31:12

in messaging. They would go back and

31:14

forth. In some articles, they're like, we

31:16

don't believe they're connected. In others, two

31:18

weeks later, they're like, we're exploring

31:20

the possibility. And I was like, okay, guys, make up

31:22

your mind. But I think they don't

31:24

want to connect to unsolved murders because

31:26

they don't want other people to become fearful

31:29

and then that take over. It

31:31

didn't help. People were still not wanting

31:33

to go out on their back decks at

31:36

night, making sure their doors were locked seven

31:38

times over. People were

31:40

nervous in the aftermath of these,

31:42

especially as it kept going and

31:44

they were not solved. And I

31:46

think keeping them separate helped keep

31:49

the police from having tunnel vision on

31:51

one thing. Let's keep them separate until

31:53

there is something tangible that links them

31:55

together. Otherwise, they could be

31:57

missing an opportunity to look at it.

32:00

a certain person for each of them

32:02

separately. Because that's something we're

32:04

going to talk about with two other

32:06

cases that happened in the county. Both

32:08

of those have since been

32:10

solved because it was somebody connected to

32:12

them. So if they connected these

32:14

two cases, then they're not looking at

32:16

someone who Dolores knew, who had a

32:19

problem with her, or someone Joan may

32:21

have known who might have, they might

32:23

have had words with someone. Keeping it

32:25

separate and keeping the investigation separate was

32:27

really important. And we

32:29

got a lot of information about

32:31

these cases because a cold case team

32:34

came in, in Bergen County. These

32:36

are not the only two cold cases they

32:38

were looking at. But

32:40

when they have them listed on their

32:42

website, they're listed together. So

32:44

every other case is its own entry.

32:47

These two, you click one button to

32:49

get to both of them. So I'm

32:51

going to say that the cold case

32:53

team is likely looking

32:55

at these as together now.

32:58

They released more information than we

33:00

had and primarily in Jones case.

33:03

And this is something I'm going to ask

33:05

you. So they released security footage from near

33:07

Joan, from like the outside of Jones neighborhood

33:10

from the night of the murder. They

33:12

did not release this for 11 years. What

33:16

do you guys think about that? This is

33:18

one of those things that I struggle with, with

33:20

law enforcement, because you try to trust them that

33:22

they know what they're doing, that they, in

33:25

their experience and their training, that yes,

33:27

they have to keep things close to

33:29

themselves to verify that

33:31

information when it comes down to

33:34

actually charging someone with these crimes.

33:36

But at the same time, when

33:38

you have surveillance footage, a

33:41

still from that footage, you don't have to

33:43

give all of the information out, but give

33:45

a little bit the public can help. I

33:48

also think that times were different

33:50

even from 2010 to now

33:52

of law enforcement being

33:54

willing to share information, they realize

33:56

that the majority of the

33:58

population wants to help. So yes,

34:00

people are going to start looking at those photos

34:03

going to start thinking hey, I do know a

34:05

guy that's that taller Oh, I do know a

34:07

girl that has a purse like that people are

34:09

thinking more in an advocacy

34:11

Mindspace of let how can I help as

34:13

opposed to we have to keep all of

34:16

this information? Because we don't

34:18

want the other jurisdictions to have it or we don't

34:20

want the public to have it because that's the only

34:22

information That's going to get a conviction. We're not in

34:24

that type of world anymore So

34:27

I can see where then they might have

34:29

been a little more closed-lipped about it And

34:31

now they're willing to release some things a

34:34

little bit more but something as easy as

34:36

surveillance footage Just a

34:38

still photo. You don't give any additional information a

34:40

still photo could have done a lot then and

34:43

you can easily say This could be a witness

34:45

this person was in the area You don't have

34:47

to say they were a suspect but 11 years

34:50

is a very long time that person

34:52

probably looks Completely different now. I think

34:55

if they put it out within even a just

34:57

a couple of months It could have made a

34:59

big difference in this case. I

35:01

also can't remember anything for a day let alone

35:04

11 years So I'm not going to remember that

35:06

someone was in the neighborhood walking through 11 years

35:08

later One of the

35:10

things with this footage is When

35:12

someone is walking so it always goes back

35:14

to the Missy Beavers case and the person

35:16

with the weird gate the way someone walks

35:19

Can matter and so I just

35:21

don't know why they held it back for as

35:24

long as they did I think it was the

35:26

right decision to eventually release it. I think it

35:28

would have been the right decision Years

35:31

ago to also release it. I'm

35:33

going to link the Bergen County

35:36

Video to their it's on their YouTube page.

35:38

There's a whole little video

35:40

on the cases and They

35:42

show this the video footage there So

35:45

a link that in the show notes and on

35:47

my website for anyone who's listening because again, this

35:49

is audio as you know So we can't really

35:52

show it But the thing is there

35:54

are two videos and the first one

35:56

was at approximately 10 p.m And

35:58

you see a man who he looked like a man It looks to

36:00

me to be wearing shorts like basketball

36:02

shorts and a light colored t-shirt.

36:05

It looks white, but again, this is a

36:07

grainy nighttime video, so it could just be

36:09

a light color. He's walking

36:11

from a bench on T-neck Road near

36:13

Route 4 and he's carrying, they

36:16

describe it as a satchel style backpack.

36:18

I don't think I saw that much detail. But

36:21

the man then took a left

36:23

onto Minnell Place and Joan lived

36:25

on the corner of Alpine and

36:27

Minnell. And so he's

36:29

walking in the direction of Joan's residence

36:32

shortly before 911 is called. The

36:36

second video comes from shortly before

36:38

midnight, so like an hour and

36:40

50 minutes later. So

36:43

again, this is after 911 has been

36:45

called and he is leaving the area.

36:50

It's the same person wearing the same

36:52

thing and he's leaving from the direction

36:55

of Joan's house. And at

36:57

this point, he is not strolling. Like he strolls

36:59

in the first video. In this one, he is

37:01

walking quickly. He looks like he has

37:03

a cell phone to his ear. He's holding something to his

37:05

ear. We have to assume it's a cell phone. He

37:08

passes the bench, even passes a fire truck

37:10

that was responding to the scene as

37:12

he's making his way out of the area. So

37:15

this man is seen going towards her house

37:17

near the time of the murder, leaving quickly

37:20

shortly after. Now he could be in the area doing

37:22

a drug buy and then all of a sudden sirens

37:24

come and he books it out of there. Like, you

37:26

know, he could have been there for other reasons, but

37:28

it would be nice to know that he

37:30

may have seen something. He may know something or

37:33

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38:31

makes sense for you and your

38:33

entire family. Happy fishing,

38:35

soldier. Metal

38:37

supermarkets. Come on in and browse

38:40

our inventory. The

38:49

video is the quality you expect from a

38:51

camera. It looks like it's almost up on

38:53

a building and he's on the sidewalk. So

38:55

there's a distance between him and the video.

38:58

It's higher than him and it's

39:00

nighttime. So it's got all the great quality you would

39:02

expect. So they don't

39:04

give any details. Like they're not

39:06

saying race or ethnicity in their

39:09

reports. You know, and then

39:11

also approximate age hasn't been released.

39:14

They have released his shoe size though.

39:16

Maybe not the man in the photo,

39:18

but the man in Jones house. To

39:21

me, it looks like they they've released the photo of

39:23

this footprint that was left at her

39:25

house. And to me, it's in a sink, right? It

39:27

is in the kitchen sink. That's like a drain,

39:29

right? In the middle, they have a ruler over

39:32

it, but it looks like a drain and a

39:34

metal sink. And there's a footprint in

39:36

the sink. And that

39:38

also gives me the idea that he

39:40

broke in, maybe climbed in a

39:42

window and stepped on the sink on his

39:44

way in. My thought was yes. Or

39:48

if this is someone, if you

39:50

go with the theory that Dolores

39:52

or Joan knew who was

39:54

there or had opened the front door, he

39:56

exited or they, because we don't know, man

39:59

or woman. they exited through

40:01

a window. And perhaps that was a

40:04

countermeasure, again, covering up further evidence

40:07

of maybe, we

40:10

don't even know how long they were in

40:12

the house. So did he lock the door?

40:14

Did this take an extended period of time,

40:16

which is absolutely heartbreaking to think about, which

40:19

it had to take some time because 55 stab

40:21

wounds on Dolores and multiple on Joan,

40:23

that's, that's very difficult. And

40:26

I just, yeah, we're not gonna get into the

40:28

details of that. But they exited or

40:31

stood in the sink somehow, right? And the only

40:33

thought is that there has to be a window

40:35

over the sink, like you said, for them to

40:38

leave because, well, it's hard to tell from

40:40

this photo, to be honest, which way which

40:42

way is the shoe print facing? I'm looking

40:44

at it like I'm looking down in a

40:46

sink. So the shoe print is pointed towards

40:48

the faucet along the back of the sink,

40:50

which I would assume would be on a

40:52

wall. Yeah, the picture doesn't show us

40:54

where the faucet is. But you have to assume that's the

40:56

way you would take a picture of a sink.

40:59

And so it does look like the person standing

41:01

there may be climbing out. Or

41:03

I think another possibilities if there's a

41:05

window there, someone is standing there and

41:07

throwing things they stole out the window.

41:10

That's another possibility. Maybe they

41:12

had someone else with them. And that

41:14

person's handing them things and they're throwing it out the

41:16

window as they're getting away. We don't

41:18

know. They did release a

41:21

picture of the shoe print, which I

41:23

don't know what it's supposed to tell us. I mean,

41:25

I don't know if anyone recognizes those ridges. I'm sure they

41:27

ran it through. There's actually a database of this. It's

41:29

come up in another case of mine. I'm sure they ran

41:31

it through the database of shoe patterns.

41:34

But yeah,

41:36

they say it's approximately a size nine

41:38

or 10 men's shoe, or at

41:40

least that's the men's shoe size. And then

41:42

based on the footage and the camera, the

41:45

person who was walking away from the scene,

41:47

all they've said is they can tell that

41:49

he's under 160 pounds. But

41:52

like with the angle of the camera and everything, they

41:54

can't tell height or anything like that. So

41:57

and this might be just a little

41:59

outlandish. There's the guy on TikTok that

42:01

can tell someone's height based on its

42:03

surrounding factors, which I think

42:05

is an extraordinary skill. A lot

42:08

of math. Yeah. Where he measures

42:10

the refrigerator behind them, the doorframe,

42:12

whatever comes up with like shin

42:14

links. It's amazing and way beyond

42:16

Whitney's scope of math. I

42:19

wonder if there's something that you could,

42:21

some way to figure that

42:23

out from here, because I'm assuming they know where

42:25

this camera footage was taken from. Based

42:27

on this footage, on the

42:30

ground, there is a square whether that

42:32

is a drainage grate, whether it's a

42:34

new piece of concrete or something on

42:36

the road, there's a clear definitive space.

42:38

So you should be able to measure

42:40

some distance where we could get a

42:42

little bit more information about this person.

42:45

In the full video where

42:47

it's panned out a little bit more, there

42:49

are other things or cars, there's

42:51

a bench, you know, I think maybe

42:53

if they took this to someone, they

42:55

could get more information on him. But

42:57

I think they're just not quite ready

42:59

to even start going down

43:01

that path if they're really hoping someone just

43:03

recognizes him or recognizes his walk. In the

43:05

full video, you can see how he walks.

43:07

And I mean, it's not terribly unique. But

43:10

you know, I recognize my husband's walk if

43:12

he's coming out of a store and I

43:14

look in the rearview mirror, I know it's

43:16

him even if I don't see his face,

43:18

because I can recognize how he's walking. And

43:21

so someone who knows him might recognize his

43:23

walk. So these are the

43:25

unsolved cases. And, you know, I covered

43:27

the Rob Cantor case, which is how

43:30

I came across these, and he was

43:32

killed March 6. But the

43:34

911 call came in just after midnight on March

43:36

7. He also lived in

43:40

Teaneck, New Jersey. And so Joan

43:43

lived in Teaneck, and she was murdered and her

43:45

house was set on fire in August. And then

43:47

in March of the next year, we have

43:49

another person who lived alone, who was

43:51

murdered, the person set the house on

43:53

fire. And it's like, what in the world are the

43:56

odds, right? But when you look at

43:58

the cases more, there's really... not

44:00

a lot of similarities. Rob was, I

44:03

think, like 15 years younger than Joan.

44:06

He was also a marathon runner.

44:08

He wasn't exactly a vulnerable person

44:11

living in their home. He

44:13

was shot once in the head,

44:16

and then the fire was set. He was

44:18

not stabbed, and he was not beaten. And

44:21

they had a solid suspect from day one.

44:23

He was in a relationship with a woman

44:25

whose soon-to-be ex-husband wasn't happy

44:27

about it. And that same day

44:29

that Rob was killed,

44:31

he had met one of their children

44:34

for the first time. And it was

44:36

shortly after the guy had been served

44:38

with divorce papers, so they think it

44:40

was just, he just flipped out. He

44:42

was tried, his name's Tony Tongue. He

44:44

was tried and convicted. He appealed successfully,

44:46

and then he was tried and convicted

44:48

again, which is pretty much the same

44:50

thing that happened in the next case,

44:52

which you covered, not Rob Cantor's case,

44:55

but you covered the other case, which is

44:57

the case of Barbara Venieri. So do you

44:59

want to tell me about that case? Yes.

45:02

So just like the two

45:04

unsolved cases, Barbara was an

45:07

elderly woman, 70 years

45:09

old. She lived alone. Her husband had

45:11

died a few years prior to this

45:13

event. And this was September 14th of

45:15

2012. Around

45:19

noon, neighbors heard

45:21

a smoke alarm going off, and so

45:23

they were like jumped on it, and

45:25

very quickly called a 911 to

45:28

report this fire. This

45:30

happened way quicker, I believe,

45:32

than the other two cases.

45:35

Authorities were able to get there quickly. She

45:38

was found nude, though, and she did

45:40

have burns all over her body from

45:42

the fire. The accelerant was applied directly

45:44

to her body, which I don't believe

45:46

we know that in the other two

45:48

cases, if that had happened

45:50

to them, or if the accelerant was just

45:53

around the house. This one, like

45:55

you said, is a solved case as well. It

45:58

ended up being the same. son of

46:00

her boss was convicted, there was

46:02

an appeal process, and

46:05

it ended up being retried and he

46:07

was convicted again. So very

46:09

crazy case. He wanted, he needed to borrow

46:11

money or something like that. I can't remember

46:13

all the details in that one. But I

46:15

knew it was all about he needed money

46:17

to pay off a loan or something of

46:19

that sort. And if I

46:21

remember correctly, Barbara was a well known

46:24

real estate agent in the community.

46:27

She was a little bit more wealthy or

46:29

maybe not wealthy, but well off. And perhaps

46:31

that's why he approached her with I know

46:33

that she fought like heck to fight

46:35

off this murder. And

46:37

the reason that he was caught, I guess

46:39

you would say or the reason that he

46:41

was charged is that his DNA was found

46:43

under her fingernails. So

46:45

in this case was solved

46:48

because they got there before the

46:51

fire destroyed the body, therefore destroying

46:53

DNA. And so there was evidence

46:55

at the scene. And I thought it was,

46:58

as we're talking about patterns and coincidences in

47:00

trial, I thought it was interesting that in

47:02

Rob Cantor's case and in Barbara's case, the

47:05

suspect was someone they knew they had

47:07

a trial, they got convicted, they had a

47:10

successful appeal which barely ever happened. And here

47:12

we've got two of them. And then within

47:14

the last year, they've both been retried and

47:17

both found guilty again. It just

47:19

reminds us that coincidences in

47:21

cases do happen even when they're

47:23

not related. So when

47:25

we're looking at Dolores and

47:27

Jones cases, we have

47:29

to look at the similarities and the

47:31

differences to see if this is really

47:34

more than just a coincidence, it really

47:36

could be a coincidence, it could actually

47:38

even be someone did this to Dolores.

47:40

So whoever did it to Joan copycatted

47:42

it on purpose. That's

47:44

always a possibility. So when we're looking

47:46

at, okay, the differences and the similarities,

47:49

another thing that investigators like to look

47:51

at are what they call the standout

47:53

features. Lots of people are bludgeoned

47:56

to death, lots of people are stabbed and

47:58

fire is a common way to cover up

48:00

a crime. Those similarities are not unique.

48:02

So what is unique about these cases?

48:05

You know, they're elderly women living alone

48:07

who don't seem to have any other enemies.

48:10

Like, I mean, are those really standouts? The

48:12

only thing I found in looking at it

48:14

is I Google mapped both other houses and

48:16

they both lived on corners. Research

48:19

has shown, because apparently they they

48:21

poll burglars, I guess, I don't know, research

48:24

has apparently shown that burglars

48:26

prefer corner houses because they're

48:28

more accessible and they have

48:30

fewer neighbors. I also

48:32

felt that there's multiple escape routes

48:34

because you on a corner, you've

48:36

got likely at least two different

48:38

roads to go down, sometimes three,

48:40

sometimes four, there's multiple ways to

48:42

get away. So I think, I

48:44

mean, the corner house thing, if we're talking about

48:47

a robber, and this was a robbery gone wrong,

48:49

but I still have a hard time seeing

48:52

it that way, because they were both beaten

48:54

and stabbed. So even if Joan wasn't stabbed,

48:56

they haven't released how many times they believe

48:58

she was stabbed, her body was in much

49:00

worse condition, they had to use dental records.

49:03

So it's possible they just don't

49:05

know how many times she was stabbed because

49:07

they can't tell. But beating

49:09

and stabbing, that's a that's a

49:11

lot more than a robber

49:14

trying to just subdue them and get

49:16

stuff and get out. But

49:18

I mean, who's targeting two older

49:20

ladies who didn't know each other

49:22

who didn't have overlapping friends or

49:24

groups as far as anyone

49:26

can tell, I mean, I looked, it's

49:28

not like Dolores attended the Quaker church

49:31

as well. Like I can't find any

49:33

connection there. She left her house to

49:35

like walk to the store and that's

49:37

about it. She wasn't at, you know,

49:39

county political events. So I

49:41

don't really know what their connection is. But

49:44

I do think that it shows

49:46

with these four cases, the two that got

49:48

solved were killed by someone they knew. And

49:51

it's so much easier to solve a case

49:53

when you're looking for someone the victim knew.

49:55

It really is. I like to

49:58

think of it as if you trust everyone. everyone

50:00

you know, then most likely you're not

50:02

going to become a victim. So in

50:04

our line of work, it could become

50:06

very daunting and very scary anxiety-ridden because

50:09

all we're doing is learning about murder

50:11

after murder. But I'm like, most of

50:13

the time it's someone the people knew.

50:15

And so I don't know if that

50:17

makes me feel better or worse, but

50:20

it's a thing. It

50:22

makes me question all of my friends. And

50:25

we are going to be able to question all of

50:27

our friends in person in a couple weeks, because we're

50:29

going to be at the True Cram Podcast Festival. I

50:31

cannot wait. The programming this year,

50:33

there's so many panels. I feel

50:35

really bad that I may not beat our

50:37

table much because I'm going to be in

50:39

the panels, which I'm so glad there's guaranteed

50:41

like gallery hours this year so that we

50:43

will get to have those interactions. But I'm

50:45

excited to listen to several people

50:47

speak this year. And then next year, you'll

50:49

be running a conference. How's that

50:52

going? How's AdvocacyCon coming? I'm

50:54

super excited. We've got some

50:56

really great people coming and I hope that

50:58

this is everything we want it to be.

51:00

We have big hopes and dreams for this

51:02

conference of what it can do and how

51:05

it can help. And I'm just excited to

51:07

see it all kind of come to fruition.

51:10

I'm excited for you. Unfortunately,

51:12

I will not be there for the first year because,

51:14

I mean, our school hadn't released

51:16

their spring break calendar yet or their calendar for

51:18

the next school year. So I was like, yep,

51:20

I'll be there. And then they released the spring

51:22

break calendar. Who put spring break

51:24

at the end of March? Apparently, Kansas

51:26

City, Missouri. I'm still trying to work

51:28

it to where I fly

51:31

in for part of it, but

51:33

it depends on those airline flights

51:36

and the cost. I'm hoping to show up

51:38

even if it's just for a few hours

51:41

because I am so proud of what you're

51:43

doing and how the three of you

51:45

have come together to make this happen

51:47

in a big way for your first year. You

51:50

thought big and you planned as though this

51:52

was going to be a success and it's

51:54

already big and it's not even until March

51:56

of next year. Well, thank you. It

51:58

means the world to have your spring break. Eric

52:01

and Melissa and I talk about this all the time,

52:03

how weird it is. Regardless

52:05

of what you believe, whether it's Kismet, the

52:07

universe, Good Juju, manifestation, whatever.

52:10

But that true crime podcast festival

52:12

in Kansas City changed all of

52:14

our lives in some big

52:17

crazy way. Amazing having your life

52:19

changed in downtown Kansas City. I'm

52:21

happy for it. It brought you

52:23

into my lives and so that's

52:25

great. And now we hang

52:27

out and go do fun stuff and go

52:29

to conferences together. But before

52:32

we wrap up, I just want to

52:34

remind my listeners that you guys are

52:36

navigating advocacy. You're available, I'm

52:38

assuming, on every podcast platform. And

52:41

you guys do YouTube. Listen, we

52:45

we made a goal at the beginning of it.

52:47

Whitney made a goal at the beginning of this

52:49

year to make YouTube a priority. And the first

52:52

six, seven episodes, I did really, really good

52:55

at it. And then something happened and I've

52:57

fallen off the the bandwagon a little bit

52:59

on that. But my goal that week before

53:01

true crime podcast festival, while I'm

53:03

at Colorado, I'm going to sit on the

53:05

balcony with my coffee, stare at the mountains

53:08

and get caught up. I mean,

53:10

there are worse places to have to

53:12

work from, so it's pretty amazing. It's

53:14

very true. Thank

53:18

you to Navigating Advocacy for joining me

53:20

this week. If you know anything about

53:22

the murders of Dolores Aliaz and Joan

53:24

Davis, you can call the Bergen County

53:26

Prosecutor at 201-646-2300. Or

53:31

you can leave a tip at a link that is

53:33

in the show notes. Also in the

53:36

show notes is a link to my website, which

53:38

will have more information on the person of interest

53:40

seen near Joan's house. And while

53:42

you're at it, check out AdvocacyCon,

53:45

which is a groundbreaking conference designed

53:47

to bring together experts, nonprofit organizations,

53:49

families of the missing and murdered.

53:51

And of course, individuals like yourself

53:54

who are passionate about advocating for

53:56

justice. It is in March of 2025 and

53:58

will feature... such

54:00

as Beth Holloway, the Gabby Petito

54:02

Foundation, Julie Murray, and Sarah Turney.

54:05

All this information with everything else is,

54:08

as you know, in the show notes.

54:26

You want the best for your child. K-12

54:28

can help them gain the skills they need

54:30

to reach their full potential, while giving you

54:32

the support you need to get them

54:35

there. K-12 powered schools are tuition-free

54:37

accredited online public schools for students

54:39

in kindergarten through 12th grade. Go

54:51

to k-12.com/podcast today to

54:54

learn more. That's k-12.com/podcast.

54:56

Dominic Dunn, legendary writer,

54:58

investigative journalist, and producer,

55:00

traveled in so many

55:02

circles through the decades

55:04

of his fascinating life

55:06

and storied career from

55:08

the seedy to the

55:10

swells. Dunn and Dunn

55:12

is the podcast that brings these stories

55:14

to you. The history of high

55:16

society families and their scandals, the stories

55:19

of old Hollywood and movie stars, the

55:21

true crimes he covered, and his own

55:23

complicated life, dropping every name he could

55:26

along the way. My name is Alicia,

55:28

and I invite you to join me

55:30

every Monday as we explore and investigate

55:33

the universe of Dominic Dunn on Dunn

55:35

and Dunn, wherever you listen to podcasts.