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Listener discretion is advised. Hello

1:07

everyone and welcome to episode 301

1:09

of the Criminology Podcast. I'm Mike

1:11

Ferguson. And this is Mike

1:13

Morford. Morford, how you doing, man? Doing good.

1:16

Just keeping busy with sports, fishing, a little bit of

1:18

relaxing when I can, but excited to get into this

1:21

episode. Yeah, yeah,

1:23

me too. So let's not waste

1:25

any time. Let's go ahead and give

1:27

our Patreon shout outs. We had

1:30

Barb Suquetti and Sarah

1:32

Pugh. So some great new

1:34

support. We really appreciate it. Yeah.

1:37

Thank you so much to everyone that takes the time to support the show. It

1:40

helps us out a lot. And if

1:42

you're interested in supporting the show,

1:44

you can go to patreon.com/criminology. So

1:46

in the last episode, in part

1:49

one of our John Bonet Ramsey coverage, we

1:52

left off talking about how

1:54

the Ramses had essentially left

1:56

Colorado for Georgia to mourn

1:58

the death of John Bonet. And

2:00

many people that knew the Ramses felt

2:03

that they may never return to their

2:05

Boulder, Colorado home. At the

2:07

time police were working hard to

2:09

solve the case. On April 4th, 1997,

2:13

John Ramsey returned to work on

2:15

site at the access graphics office

2:18

on Pearl street. By then the

2:21

cost of the investigation had topped

2:23

$110,000 near the end of the month. John

2:27

and Patsy sat down for separate

2:29

interviews with the Boulder police department.

2:32

By May, 1997, Patsy

2:34

Ramsey had provided five different handwriting

2:36

samples to authorities for comparison to

2:39

the ransom note by July,

2:41

the Ramsey family was living in Atlanta

2:43

full time on November 17th, 1997, John Ramsey

2:45

stepped down as CEO

2:49

of access graphics and

2:51

took on a consultancy role with Lockheed Martin.

2:53

In June, 1998, 11

2:56

year old Burke Ramsey was interviewed by

2:58

Broomfield police detective Dan Schuler for

3:00

about six hours over three days. It

3:03

seems that police were looking closest at John

3:05

Bonet's family. And while many people even

3:07

to this day suspect the Ramses, many

3:09

other people feel that the Boulder police

3:11

locked in on them early and didn't

3:13

consider other possible suspects. So

3:15

I had a couple of thoughts here more. You

3:18

know, one is that, yeah, obviously the

3:21

police are going to look at the family. Because

3:23

of how everything is

3:26

thought to have transpired. John

3:29

Bonet is found in the basement. No

3:31

doubt they're going to want to talk to the people in

3:33

the home. And then I had this

3:36

other thought of people speculating

3:38

that the Ramses probably

3:40

wouldn't return to their Boulder home. I

3:43

think it would be very tough to go

3:45

back and live in that house.

3:48

I mean, how could you not walk

3:51

in and around every corner?

3:53

Just be reminded of what

3:56

had happened. Yeah. And I think that

3:58

would be so difficult to remember. Especially

4:01

for john finding his daughter that

4:03

condition he'll probably never get that

4:05

out of his mind

4:07

and that would just be a constant

4:09

reminder every day so i. I can

4:12

understand that but i think some people that

4:14

suspect them they look at

4:16

the move as an escape almost as

4:18

to get away to distance themselves. From

4:20

it so i think people have thought

4:23

that in the people

4:25

that leave the heads involvement but i just wanna

4:27

go back to one thing you touched on. It's

4:30

a known fact that in

4:32

murders the overwhelming majority of

4:34

time the victim. Is killed

4:36

by someone they know not a stranger to

4:38

usually somebody close to them so

4:41

that's why police investigations start with

4:43

those closest to the victims and

4:46

then fan out from there is able to. To

4:48

rule them out and

4:51

move on to other people so

4:53

you would think that the police did the right

4:55

thing by looking at the ramseys but a lot

4:58

of people think they just focus solely on them

5:00

and never found out anyone beyond them. In

5:03

august 1998 district

5:05

attorney alex hunter announced that he would

5:07

present the case to a grand jury.

5:09

Knowing that he and his wife

5:12

priscilla would likely be subpoenaed to

5:14

testify which meant a complete

5:16

gag order on him regarding the

5:18

case fleet white junior decided to

5:20

publish a letter to the public. According

5:23

to the daily camera the letter read

5:25

in anticipation of

5:27

receiving a subpoena to appear

5:29

before the grand jury we

5:31

wish at this time. To address

5:33

matters concerning the investigation which we

5:36

feel are of great importance to

5:38

the people of colorado and

5:40

the boulder community. They found it

5:43

important to mention that the

5:45

attorneys the ramseys hired had

5:47

connections to prosecutors the

5:50

denver and boulder legal

5:52

and judicial communities state

5:54

legislators and high ranking

5:56

members of colorado government.

5:58

While the community may. felt relieved about the

6:01

news of progress in the case, finally

6:03

a grand jury would hear all of the

6:05

evidence and maybe someone would finally be held

6:08

accountable. But Fleet and Priscilla White

6:10

were not convinced that justice was the goal

6:12

of these proceedings. Referencing the

6:14

White's letter once again that they had published, they

6:16

wrote, There's compelling evidence that their

6:19

motivation for presenting the case to a

6:21

grand jury has little or nothing

6:23

to do with obtaining new evidence. Thrilling

6:25

reluctant witnesses were returning

6:27

an indictment and everything to do

6:30

with sealing away facts, circumstances,

6:32

and evidence gathered in the investigation in

6:35

a grand jury transcript. It

6:37

seems clear that the Whites found

6:39

it interesting and many others do

6:41

too, that the grand jury

6:43

set to hear the Ramsey case was

6:45

the first grand jury scheduled after

6:47

a new statute concerning grand

6:49

jury reporting procedures would take

6:52

effect. The letter ends on a

6:54

very strong point. We must be

6:56

mindful, however, of the first

6:58

cause of the investigation's failure, the

7:01

refusal of John and Patsy

7:03

Ramsey to cooperate fully and

7:05

genuinely with those officially charged

7:07

with the responsibility of investigating

7:09

the death of their daughter,

7:11

John Bonnet. On

7:13

October 13, 1999,

7:16

District Attorney Hunter announced that the

7:18

grand jury had finished, but

7:20

that there had not been enough evidence to

7:22

charge anyone. They had given it

7:25

their best shot and come up short. So

7:28

the investigation transpired over a couple

7:30

of years. They

7:33

finally made it to this point where

7:35

they were going to present the

7:37

case to a grand jury. This

7:40

letter by the Whites, to

7:42

me, is very interesting.

7:45

It seems more to me that they're

7:48

kind of taking some shots at

7:50

the Ramses, basically saying

7:53

they didn't cooperate fully. What's

7:56

your take on it? Yeah, I took

7:58

it the same way. And but

8:01

I also thought they were critical to.

8:03

Of the grand jury gathering to

8:05

begin with it, Maybe the da.

8:09

Was. Lacking in some regard

8:11

and. The. Whites felt that

8:13

once. A gag order was in

8:16

place. They wouldn't be able to talk about

8:18

this later, so they preempted it with this

8:20

this letter. But it does seem like it's

8:22

critical of everyone involved. Why? Even

8:24

to the point to the talk about

8:26

the attorneys that the Ramseys higher. Having.

8:29

Connections with. You

8:32

know, prosecutors, legislators, all

8:34

these different. People. In

8:37

government. It. There's a little bit

8:39

of our. Conspiracy Theory

8:41

Town. To it.

8:43

But really? Not much of

8:46

anything. Comes. Out of the

8:48

grand jury Raden no one is

8:50

charged. And. Really. After

8:52

that the investigation stop.

8:55

A. Cloud of suspicion hung over the

8:57

Ramsey family for years. Phone: Japanese murder.

9:00

On. June Twenty fourth. Two Thousand and six. Patsy.

9:03

Ramsey passed away about three years

9:05

after recurrence of ovarian cancer. She.

9:08

Says forty nine years old. John. Was

9:10

by her side of your parents' house until the

9:12

very end. Patsy. Was laid to rest

9:14

right next to Jon Benet. In. December

9:16

two months after Patsies death. Investigation

9:19

into Japanese death which have

9:21

been dormant was renewed. A.

9:23

Sample of blood taken from her underwear was

9:26

sent to the F B I for dna

9:28

testing and analysis. In two

9:30

thousand eight after years of

9:32

suspicion hanging over the Ramseys

9:34

had em police doing nothing

9:36

to. Ease. That suspicions,

9:38

Border District Attorney Mary Lacy

9:40

formerly cleared the entire Ramsey

9:43

family. Of involvement in Jon

9:45

Benet murder in issued a public

9:47

apology. The. Statement read in part.

9:50

To the extent that we may have

9:52

contributed in any way to the public

9:54

perception that you might have been involved

9:57

in this crap, I am deeply sorry.

9:59

there There are many people who

10:02

discount this exoneration in public

10:04

apology. Stan Garnett, the

10:06

Boulder District Attorney after Mary

10:08

Lacy said that Lacy's exoneration

10:10

was just that, Lacy's

10:12

and Lacy's alone. According

10:15

to ABC News, Garnett said, This

10:18

letter is not legally binding. It's

10:20

a good faith opinion and has no

10:22

legal importance, but the opinion

10:24

of the person who had the job

10:26

before I did, whom I respect. In

10:29

short, Garnett was saying that the Ramses

10:31

were not cleared. Years later, in 2015,

10:35

former Boulder County Police Chief

10:37

Mark Beckner participated in an

10:40

AMA, Ask Me Anything,

10:42

on the subreddit Unresolved

10:44

Mysteries. He wrote that he

10:46

did not discount the importance of the

10:49

DNA evidence, but felt that there was

10:51

other evidence that should be given equal

10:53

weight. He also wrote that

10:55

DA Lacy had, quote, made up

10:57

her mind years before that

10:59

a mother could not do that to a

11:02

child. Thus, the family was

11:04

innocent. Essentially, the exoneration

11:06

was based on emotion, not

11:09

the facts of the case. It was

11:11

clear that officially the Ramses were still

11:13

under the microscope. And more

11:15

if you said it, there's really no

11:17

way around it in this case. There

11:20

are many people who to

11:22

this day feel that

11:24

the Ramses or someone

11:27

in the family was involved

11:29

in John Bonet's death.

11:32

We talk a lot about people

11:34

who for many, many years

11:37

walk around with this

11:39

cloud of suspicion hanging over their

11:41

head. That's exactly

11:43

what happened here. And

11:46

then you have a new DA

11:48

who comes out and says, not

11:51

only are we exonerating the

11:54

Ramses, we're also

11:56

apologizing for anything that we

11:58

did to make the public. public thing that you

12:00

might have been involved. Yeah, and then

12:03

right after that, the new DA comes out

12:05

and backtracks on what that former DA says

12:07

and says, oh, no, that's just her

12:09

opinion. There's nothing legally clearing them.

12:12

So to me, that back and

12:14

forth from the DA's office, that

12:17

inconsistency, that unsureness,

12:21

it doesn't inspire a lot of

12:23

confidence in me. Well, and it's

12:25

another thing that we'll be talking about

12:27

as we continue throughout this

12:29

case. Yes, a lot of

12:31

people suspect that maybe the

12:34

Ramses were involved, but then you have

12:36

a lot of people who look at

12:39

kind of the whole Boulder system

12:42

back then and think that

12:45

they possibly bungled this whole case.

12:49

I mean, there's no getting away from that either.

12:52

In 2013, it was revealed that

12:54

the 1999 grand jury had

12:56

returned an indictment that actually

12:58

charged both John and Patsy Ramsey with

13:01

two counts each of child abuse resulting in

13:03

death. The charges weren't accusing

13:05

them of directly murdering John Bonet. However,

13:08

the grand jury did believe that the Ramses

13:10

had placed her daughter in a dangerous situation

13:13

and that they had aided her killer. This

13:15

indictment seems to line up with what authorities have

13:17

believed and hinted at all these years. According

13:20

to former Boulder police chief Mark Beckner

13:22

in a deposition transcript, no

13:24

note has ever been written at the scene and

13:27

then left at the scene with the dead

13:29

victim at the scene other than this case. We

13:32

specifically looked into this and had the FBI

13:34

check the records for any similar case and

13:37

ours was and to my knowledge still is

13:39

the only case in history where

13:41

a body was found in the same house as

13:43

a ransom note demanding money. I

13:45

get what Mark Beckner is saying and

13:48

it's tough to discount but

13:50

there is always a first time for

13:53

everything. I mean, there's that saying

13:55

for a reason. It's because it's true

13:58

but it's still very odd. I mean,

14:00

I think we touched on it in episode

14:02

one. Yeah. And I think we also

14:04

have to remember that no two murders

14:07

are identical in every aspect or the

14:09

killers aren't identical. There's going to be

14:11

some kind of deviation. So just because

14:14

they haven't seen this or it's not common,

14:17

doesn't mean it couldn't have happened in this one

14:19

instance. Yeah, I get that.

14:21

But does it make sense? And

14:23

that's the filter through which I kind of

14:26

look at everything, you know, as we

14:28

go through these cases, does it

14:30

make sense? And I think a lot

14:32

of other people have asked that question, you know,

14:34

in regards to this case, why

14:37

the need for the ransom note if

14:40

John Bonnet was murdered. Did

14:42

they write it before and then

14:45

something happened? Then why

14:47

leave it? I mean, there's just, there's a

14:49

lot of questions surrounding it. So

14:51

the indictment points to the Ramsey's

14:53

involvement, but it

14:56

doesn't seem to name either of

14:58

the Ramsey's as the actual individual

15:00

who killed John Bonnet. Is

15:02

there a third person the grand jury

15:04

had in mind? Why were no

15:06

charges brought against the Ramsey's if there

15:08

had been an indictment? So,

15:11

you know, you go down this road and it's

15:13

like, okay, what are we missing here

15:16

about what the grand jury knew? How

15:18

is the case still unsolved? How

15:20

do we figure out what the

15:23

grand jury believed happened?

15:25

These questions hung over

15:27

the case for years and really they

15:30

still do to this day. But to

15:32

figure out what happened, maybe

15:34

we need to go back to the beginning. Yeah,

15:37

there's definitely some things that happened in

15:39

the days leading up to John Bonnet's

15:41

murder that we need to discuss. The

15:43

Ramsey's were looking forward to a quiet Christmas day

15:46

in 1996, before traveling

15:48

to see their family in another state. They

15:50

had just participated in Boulder's annual

15:52

holiday home tour in which

15:54

their decorated home was open to the public and

15:57

reportedly well over 1000 people were to

16:00

walk through the Ramsey home and

16:02

taking its beautifully decorated scenery. Some

16:04

sources say that that number of strangers allowed to

16:06

walk through the home was as high as 2,000 people. A

16:10

friend and neighbor of the Ramseys, Bill McReynolds,

16:13

had dressed up as Santa Claus to entertain

16:15

neighborhood children in the Ramsey home. He

16:18

called Jambene his special friend and

16:20

promised the six-year-old a secret visit on Christmas

16:22

Day. So Jambene was excited

16:24

for Christmas to arrive and following

16:26

a busy week, it would be

16:29

a quiet, relaxing one for the four

16:31

Ramseys, John, Patsy, Er, and

16:33

Jambene. As far as we

16:35

know, Jambene had a normal Christmas on

16:37

December 25, 1996. Everyone

16:41

woke up around 6 because as

16:43

many parents know, that's about as long

16:46

as the kids can wait to open

16:48

up their presents. So it's usually a

16:50

day when kids don't have

16:52

much trouble at all getting out of bed.

16:55

After all the presents were opened,

16:57

Patsy made pancakes for breakfast. Burke

17:00

was already glued to his Nintendo 64.

17:04

Jambene loved her jewelry-making kit.

17:07

One discrepancy is that John

17:09

and Patsy claimed that only

17:11

Jambene got a new bike for

17:13

Christmas, but years later as an

17:15

adult, Burke would claim they

17:18

both got bikes as presents. Patsy's

17:20

big present to Jambene was

17:22

a MyTwindle, which was based

17:25

off of photos of her and was

17:27

supposed to look just like her. Usually

17:30

the Ramseys would record their

17:32

Christmas celebration, but there was

17:34

no video. From that morning, the

17:36

last Christmas together because John forgot

17:38

to get batteries for the video

17:40

camera. There were batteries, however,

17:43

in the film camera, so a

17:45

few photos were taken. And

17:47

my kids are grown. They're

17:49

off to college. I mean,

17:51

Christmas is different now. But

17:54

when I think back to when they were young,

17:56

you know, this is what we

17:58

experienced as well. I mean, they

18:01

woke up before I ever wanted to

18:03

get out of bed, but there

18:05

was no, you know, holding them off.

18:08

They were so excited, you know,

18:10

jumping on the bed, get up, mom, get

18:12

up, dad. And then I was

18:15

always in charge of the video

18:17

camera and it was just

18:19

always amazing to see how

18:21

excited they got over certain

18:24

presents and I always

18:26

just thought it was a magical day. Yeah,

18:28

and this Christmas for the Ramses seemed like

18:30

a pretty normal one,

18:33

one that a lot of us probably have just

18:36

laying around, open presents, not

18:38

in a hurry to do much. Everybody's sort

18:40

of doing their own thing, playing with their presents that

18:42

they got. So nothing

18:45

unusual up to this point of that day. Later

18:48

that day, some of the neighborhood children came over

18:50

to play at the Ramses house. At

18:52

night, the Ramses went to the home of their good

18:54

friends, Priscilla and Fleet White Jr.

18:57

who lived about a mile away. The

18:59

Whites had a daughter that was John Bonet's age

19:01

and a son, Burke's age. Priscilla made

19:03

sure to save a plate of cracked crab for

19:05

John Bonet because she loved it so much. The

19:08

last photo of John Bonet looking up into

19:10

the camera was taken here during this gathering

19:13

on their way home from the Whites party. The

19:15

Ramses stopped by the homes of some friends to

19:17

drop off presents. First, the

19:19

Walkers, then the Stines. According

19:21

to Patsy, John Bonet had fallen

19:23

asleep and it was late, so they decided not

19:25

to drop off their final gift for the Fernies.

19:28

That would have to wait. Now we

19:30

said this seemed like a normal Christmas that

19:32

maybe a lot of us have

19:35

experienced. I will say this.

19:38

I think the Ramses had a lot more money

19:40

than most of us do. I

19:42

don't remember ever, you know, breaking

19:44

out the cracked crab for

19:47

Christmas. Yeah, I think for a

19:49

lot of us, it's cold cuts and lunch meat

19:51

and stuff like that. At around

19:53

10 p.m. on Christmas night, the Ramses

19:56

returned home. The versions vary

19:58

here. and John

20:00

have generally claimed that John Benet fell

20:02

asleep in the car on the way

20:05

home from the White's house and that

20:07

John carried her upstairs to bed. Burke

20:10

Ramsey later as an adult

20:13

recalled her walking up the stairs that

20:15

night. In his memory she did

20:17

fall asleep in the car but woke

20:19

up to help deliver presents to the

20:21

Stines and walked inside the house

20:24

with everyone else when they got home. Once

20:26

in her bedroom however they got there,

20:29

John said he took her

20:31

shoes off but left her in

20:33

what she was wearing, figuring Patsy

20:35

would change her into a nightgown

20:38

or pajamas. Patsy originally

20:40

said she didn't change John Benet out

20:42

of the white long sleeve top and

20:44

black velvet pants she was wearing at the party. Both

20:47

John and Patsy apparently told officers John

20:50

Benet had last been wearing a red long sleeve

20:52

turtleneck when she went to bed. This

20:54

inconsistency in what she was last seen

20:56

wearing and whether or not she was

20:59

even awake is part of what makes people wonder whether

21:01

or not John Benet ever made it to bed that

21:03

night. One of the first reports

21:05

was that John Ramsey read to John Benet after he

21:07

put her in bed. This like many

21:09

things would change. It's unknown

21:12

exactly when John Benet was

21:14

attacked. There is basically

21:17

a gap from 10pm when

21:19

the Ramses claimed to have placed her

21:21

in bed until 5.52am the next morning.

21:25

In the morning Patsy appeared to be wearing

21:27

a full face of makeup and had on

21:29

the same clothes she was wearing to the

21:32

whites Christmas party the night before. This

21:34

is something by all accounts Patsy never

21:36

did. She was not one to

21:38

re-wear an outfit so it only

21:41

stood out as suspicious and out of

21:43

character. Whatever you make of

21:45

Patsy wearing the same clothes and makeup from

21:47

the night before when she

21:49

woke up and headed down the spiral

21:51

staircase. That's when she claimed she

21:53

found the ransom note on the

21:55

bottom step. To me more if

21:58

there is a lot of things here that people are looking

22:00

for. make something out of

22:03

it could be something it could be nothing

22:05

would it be strange to

22:08

find the ransom note call

22:10

the police and then go

22:12

in and and put

22:14

on makeup I think it

22:16

would be but the makeup

22:19

combined with wearing the same

22:21

outfit it leads many to

22:24

think that she either

22:26

went to bed that way woke up

22:28

that way or didn't sleep

22:30

much and the one thing I

22:32

don't know is whether she was

22:34

drinking going to these different homes

22:36

maybe they were having drinks and maybe by the time

22:38

she got home she was tired maybe

22:41

a little drunk and I've been

22:43

here for I've had a few drinks and just crashed

22:47

late at night and with whatever

22:49

I was wearing woke

22:51

up in the morning and took a shower and got changed

22:53

maybe that was her plan I don't know so

22:56

and you decided not to take your makeup off

22:59

well now the makeup part I didn't

23:01

have to worry about but the

23:03

closed part I can I can understand yeah

23:06

I just think it's one of those

23:08

things that and there were a lot of this

23:10

type of stuff right in this case does

23:13

it mean something or does it mean nothing

23:15

at all we

23:17

did discuss a lot of the ransom note in part

23:19

one of our John Benet coverage but one

23:21

thing we didn't touch on is the cinematic theme of

23:23

some of the statements in that note it

23:26

almost reads like someone is copying ransom

23:28

calls from movies they're meant to

23:30

sound tough and intimidating in regards to the

23:33

theatrical hints in the ransom note former

23:35

Boulder district attorney Mary Lacey told

23:37

ABC News the Boulder police should

23:40

have checked all the video stores to see

23:42

who was running those movies and they never

23:44

did it is true some of

23:46

the lines from the ransom note are very similar

23:48

to lines from movies the 1994

23:51

movie speed starring Keanu Reeves includes

23:53

the line do not attempt to

23:55

grow a brain which is included almost

23:58

verbatim in the ransom note the

24:00

The 1971 movie Dirty Harry includes

24:02

the line, If you talk

24:04

to anyone, I don't care if it's a

24:06

Pekingese pissing against a lamppost, the girl dies,

24:09

which is very similar to the stray dog reference

24:11

in the Ramsay Ransom note. The

24:14

1986 movie Ruthless People

24:16

includes the lines, If

24:18

you notify the police, your wife will

24:20

be killed. If you notify the

24:22

media, she will be killed. If

24:25

you deviate from our instructions in

24:27

any way whatsoever, she will be

24:29

killed. Do you understand? These

24:32

are very similar to the Ransom note too.

24:34

The 1995 movie Nick of Time includes

24:37

the threat, you talk to a cop,

24:39

you even look at a cop, too

24:41

long and your daughter's dead. I'll

24:43

kill her myself, cut the head

24:45

off right in front of you, which is similar

24:48

to the Ransom note and in fact, this

24:50

very movie actually aired on

24:52

cable in Boulder at 7.30pm

24:55

on Christmas. We're

24:57

left to wonder whether the author of the notes

25:00

saw these movies or if they were just trying

25:02

so hard to sound like a kidnapper that they

25:04

ended up rewriting things from movie scripts and

25:06

if these quotes were deliberate. Was the

25:08

author just a fan of these kinds of movies? Did

25:11

they need a script or was the use

25:13

of some of these quotes just some kind of message? It's

25:16

debated how many times the author would have needed

25:18

to see these movies to remember the lines so

25:20

closely. In 1996, before the

25:22

internet was widely available, there

25:24

was no way to Google Ransom

25:26

notes from movies. In 1996, the

25:28

author of the note either really liked kidnapping movies

25:31

and was perhaps inspired by them, sought

25:33

out kidnapping movies to help them in their plan,

25:36

had recently seen the movies and the

25:39

lines popped into their head or they

25:41

were trying very hard to sound, intimidating,

25:44

and it ended up sounding very Hollywood. Like

25:46

Mary Lacey said, knowing who had been

25:48

running those movies may have been helpful. As

25:51

far as we know, none of the movies

25:53

we mentioned were found in the Ramsey's personal

25:55

video collection. So, some of

25:57

these lines from the Ransom note. You

26:00

know they're very interesting i want to talk

26:02

about an episode one but we decided we'd

26:04

wait and talk about it in in the

26:07

second one i remember.

26:09

You the line from speed really

26:12

jumped out of where

26:14

dennis hopper says don't

26:17

try to go brag it's such a strange

26:20

saying i don't know how many

26:23

people would use that in their

26:25

everyday. You know the vocabulary

26:29

so for it to wind up in this letter

26:32

along with other quotes

26:34

that seem to come from movies. It

26:37

does make you think that

26:40

the letter was written by someone

26:43

pretending to be a criminal not

26:46

a hard and criminal but pretending

26:48

to be one based off of

26:50

what they had seen in movies.

26:53

And then i think the other thing is

26:55

that the internet was you

26:58

know out there obviously in nineteen ninety

27:00

six. The ramses had money

27:03

what we don't know is you did

27:06

they have the internet did

27:08

the police check their computers i mean

27:10

that would be so. Automated

27:14

today for the police to

27:16

kind of see the computers check the

27:19

search history i don't

27:21

think it was that common back then. Yeah

27:24

it's interesting to think

27:26

about the internet growth because i

27:28

think by that year there was something

27:30

like sixteen million people worldwide that had

27:32

the internet. So not just

27:34

anybody would be able to jump online

27:36

and search up movie

27:38

references so how they were

27:41

able to know all those movie references you

27:43

them where they got that material from. Is

27:46

a very interesting that thing to think about while

27:49

the language in the ransom note

27:51

is clearly interesting it's the

27:53

ransom amount in the know that.

27:56

Has never really made sense anyone and it

27:58

really can't stands out. One

28:01

unnamed source, mentioned by

28:03

the Boulder Daily Camera, stated, it's

28:05

just a weird amount that may have

28:07

been the salary of a disgruntled employee.

28:10

Pat Corten, the Ramses Media

28:12

Consultant, confirmed for the

28:15

Daily Camera that the amount

28:17

roughly matched John Ramses' year-end

28:19

bonus for 1995, which

28:22

he would have received around February of

28:25

1996, almost

28:27

a year before John Bonet was killed.

28:29

It may have been printed on paystops

28:32

and could have been seen by someone

28:34

rifling through papers in the Ramsey home.

28:37

An unnamed source quoted by the

28:39

Boulder Daily Camera said that this

28:41

amount was pretty significant because

28:44

it shows that the person who did this

28:46

obviously knew the family in

28:48

its financial situation very well.

28:51

And I do think that that

28:53

amount has always intrigued people because

28:57

of the fact that it closely

28:59

matched John's bonus.

29:02

It does kind of lend

29:05

to the theory that either

29:08

someone put it in there because they

29:10

knew the Ramses so well, they were

29:12

familiar with what his bonus was, or

29:14

it wasn't someone that knew

29:17

the Ramses well but found some

29:19

type of paperwork inside the

29:21

house that maybe showed what

29:23

his bonus was. Yeah, I think at

29:25

the end of the day, it's a big clue

29:27

because it clearly seems to be connected to that

29:29

bonus, but it also doesn't lead

29:32

anywhere. It's okay, they either knew them

29:34

and knew about this bonus amount or they didn't know

29:37

them and just happened to find it. So it doesn't

29:39

really help us clear things up,

29:41

unfortunately. Yeah, because what does it

29:43

mean? Other than it

29:45

may or may not be linked to this bonus, my

29:48

thought is if you're getting that much from

29:51

a bonus, because that is a boatload of

29:53

money, especially in 1996. Obviously,

29:56

your salary is really high. You have

29:58

a lot of money. You can

30:00

ask for more than than that

30:02

bonus amount it just seems

30:05

specifically odd that

30:08

exact number. So one

30:10

interesting thing would be for second

30:12

let's assume that some outside

30:14

and just find his pay stub and

30:16

use that amount in that letter in

30:18

the question becomes how many

30:20

people. Do about that

30:23

specific amount did they tell anybody about

30:25

it friends or anybody

30:27

in particular or would

30:29

it point somebody that maybe at the

30:31

company that has access to

30:33

it. So if you take

30:35

out the outsider for a moment stranger

30:38

just coming upon that maybe

30:41

that does shrink the pull down of they should

30:43

be looking at. Then again as some

30:46

people suspect if this was written by the ram's is

30:48

the need to would know that amount. And

30:50

in that scenario maybe

30:52

it just came to their mind because it

30:54

was a sizable amount

30:57

that they had gotten during the

30:59

past year i think that's

31:01

what maybe a lot of people speculate

31:03

or something along those lines. The

31:06

ransom note was written on the note

31:08

pad that belongs to the ram's specifically

31:10

patsy the pen was also still in

31:12

the house right where it belonged. When asked

31:15

for handwriting sample it's been reported

31:17

that john ramsey grab patsy's notepad

31:19

then added his own sample on a page he

31:22

has the evidence right over to police. What

31:24

has been called a practice note was found in

31:26

the notepad it just read mister

31:29

and mrs with a down stroke like

31:31

someone was going to write an hour for ramsey.

31:35

The author change their mind decided to address

31:37

the note to only john there were

31:39

pages missing in between the practice page in

31:41

the pages used for the ransom note that

31:43

have not been found. According to

31:45

the denver post handwriting experts at

31:48

the colorado bureau of investigation ruled out

31:50

john ramsey is the ransom notes author

31:53

but they couldn't do the same for patsy after

31:55

comparing one patsy handwriting sample to the

31:57

ransom note check you bozki. of

32:00

CBI concluded, this handwriting showed

32:02

indications that the writer was Patsy

32:04

Ramsey. I think we need

32:06

to point out that handwriting examination is

32:08

not exact science or physical science like

32:11

fingerprints or DNA. It's based

32:13

on someone's opinion. And I

32:16

really do think that the ransom

32:18

note is such a big thing

32:21

in this case for them

32:23

to rule out John, but not

32:25

be able to rule out Patsy. I

32:28

think has led to the

32:30

speculation on the part of many that she

32:33

was somehow involved, just the fact

32:35

that they couldn't rule out that

32:38

she had written the ransom note.

32:40

Yeah, I think this was just one of the things

32:43

that was a check mark for her looking

32:45

guilty to some people, the fact she

32:47

couldn't be ruled out. But had she been

32:49

cleared the way John was, maybe

32:51

it would have been a check mark in

32:53

the other column. While many

32:56

people think some big clues can be

32:58

found in the ransom note, other

33:00

people believe that there is more to the very

33:02

end of the 911 call. Apparently,

33:06

after Patsy thought she hung up, the

33:09

phone remained awkwardly in the cradle,

33:12

not yet ending the call. During

33:14

the Vanity Fair, it's believed by

33:16

some that Burke Ramsey can be

33:18

heard in the background asking, what

33:20

did you find? A terse

33:22

John Ramsey replies, we're not

33:25

talking to you while Patsy

33:27

panics repeating, Oh, my Jesus

33:29

or help me Jesus. This

33:32

language people think they can hear at

33:34

the end of the call is commonly

33:37

used as proof that the Ramses

33:39

lied about the entire morning. Not

33:42

only was Burke not asleep in his

33:44

bed, like John and Patsy told police,

33:47

he was up and speaking to his

33:49

parents, clearly aware something was

33:51

wrong, but very calm. And

33:54

more, if we are talking a lot about

33:56

what some people believe,

33:58

and I think that's. A very

34:01

important point to make. You

34:03

have to talk about those things when

34:06

you talk about this case. Doesn't

34:09

mean they're true. Doesn't mean they're

34:11

not true. And when you listen

34:13

to that end of that 911 call,

34:15

it's really garbled and you could

34:18

ask 50 people and get 50 different opinions

34:20

on what they hear. So again, not

34:23

science, but we're solid

34:26

evidence, but again, just something

34:28

that makes the Ramses look guilty

34:30

to some. And I also

34:32

think it's very natural for people

34:35

to hear something

34:37

that backs up

34:39

what they already believe, right?

34:42

If you're in the camp of

34:44

people who believe that the Ramses

34:46

were trying to cover something up

34:48

or something along those lines, well,

34:51

then you want to hear it a

34:53

certain way, possibly. I

34:55

think that happens. Burke has

34:57

admitted to being awake that morning. He

34:59

remembers Patsy rushing into his room in a

35:01

panic, turning on his late and crying

35:03

out about her baby. He also remembers

35:05

John turning off his late and

35:07

officer French arriving and doing a cursory search

35:09

of the room. It seems as if

35:12

Burke was just pretending to be asleep. He

35:14

has never mentioned speaking to his parents

35:16

that morning before police arrived. So

35:18

one thing that, you know, I do want to

35:20

talk about is Burke. Obviously

35:23

he's grown up and

35:26

he has said things over

35:28

the years. He has admitted to

35:31

certain things that

35:33

probably weren't known about during

35:36

the, you know, the first

35:38

parts of the investigation. Now,

35:40

I don't know what they mean, you know,

35:43

admitting to being awake when it

35:45

was thought that he

35:47

was asleep. If he

35:49

had said that, yes, I

35:51

spoke to my parents that morning

35:54

before police arrived, that would

35:56

be, you know, I think something

35:58

to, to look into. remiss

36:00

if I didn't say here

36:02

that there are many

36:05

people who believe it's possible

36:07

that Burke had something to

36:09

do with John Bonet's death.

36:11

And so I think that's why the end

36:15

of this 911 call, Burke's

36:18

statements sometimes get picked

36:20

apart. And I think

36:22

it's pretty clear even if he was awake but

36:24

he never got out of bed that morning, I

36:27

don't think that really proves anything. Certainly

36:30

if he never got out of bed it wouldn't be him

36:32

on the 911 call. But

36:34

if it was, would

36:36

that change your thoughts

36:39

on certain things or

36:41

people's thoughts? And I would

36:43

say, yeah, maybe so. Yeah, because

36:45

that would mean that the Ramses, Patsy and

36:47

John were lying early on and as an

36:50

adult, Burke admitted to being awake

36:52

but never getting out of bed, that would mean

36:54

he was lying too. But there's no

36:56

proof that he ever got out of bed that morning. So

37:00

let's talk about some actual

37:02

tangible physical evidence. The

37:04

broken basement window that Fleet White

37:07

discovered in the basement definitely stands

37:09

out. First, it's odd

37:11

that despite being broken months earlier,

37:13

it hadn't been fixed. I think

37:16

we talked about that a little bit

37:18

in episode one. The

37:21

Ramses had money. It

37:23

wasn't a question of not having the money

37:25

to get that fixed. Maybe

37:27

it was just about time. Maybe

37:29

it was forgetfulness.

37:33

They could afford the extra

37:35

heating, cooling costs. But

37:37

there's also bugs, small

37:40

animals that could get inside

37:43

or children playing

37:45

near broken glass. So

37:48

that question comes up. Why not

37:50

fix the window? On the

37:52

other hand, if the Ramses were

37:55

somehow involved, as some

37:57

believe, why would John immediately

37:59

confess? that he had broken the window

38:01

and that it had never

38:03

been fixed. If he was

38:05

guilty, that broken window would

38:08

only help him look more innocent. So

38:10

it wouldn't make sense to say that he was

38:12

the one who broke it, just

38:14

to paint a better picture of that

38:16

window leading into the basement is

38:19

situated very low on the home and

38:22

to access it, you need

38:24

to lift metal grates and

38:26

climb down to the window in

38:29

order to get through it. The great area

38:31

and window itself was not very

38:33

large, so not every

38:35

person would be able to get in

38:38

and out through it, although we know

38:40

from John Ramsey that he was able

38:42

to do it. Lou Smith,

38:44

a former Colorado detective, came

38:46

out of retirement to assist

38:48

the Boulder DA in building a case

38:51

against the Ramses. Two

38:53

years into his investigation, he

38:55

resigned completely convinced of

38:58

the Ramses innocence and

39:00

he felt the Boulder authorities

39:02

had blinders on, focused solely

39:05

on the Ramses and nobody else.

39:07

He demonstrated for a 2020 camera crew in

39:11

an episode about the case just

39:13

how easily he could make his way in

39:15

and out of the basement, and

39:17

he felt that John Benet's killer could

39:20

have done the very same thing. The

39:23

Ramses actually insisted that all the doors and windows

39:25

were locked when they went to bed and they

39:27

were still locked in the morning when they were

39:29

searching for John Benet. According to

39:31

them, there was no clear point of entry

39:33

or exit, no forced entry that they could

39:36

see. Again, if you're the Ramses and

39:38

you're trying to cover up what you did and point

39:40

to an outsider, why go out of your

39:42

way to say that you can find no evidence of an

39:44

outsider getting into your house? Why would they

39:46

point away from the possibility that an intruder was able

39:49

to get inside the home? For those that

39:51

believe in the Ramses innocence, this seems

39:53

to strengthen the case for them. As

39:55

far as who the Ramses suspected of killing John Benet, they

39:58

were not able to find him. They were not able to find him. John

40:00

seemed to look toward disgruntled

40:02

access graphics employees who

40:04

would not have had keys and

40:07

would have needed to break in, possibly

40:09

through the window while Patsy

40:11

looked to the housekeeper who had

40:13

a key to the home. It's not

40:15

clear how much Boulder police looked

40:18

into ex employees or into

40:20

the housekeeper. In one of these

40:22

scenarios, John bonnets killer wouldn't

40:24

have had access to get into

40:26

the home and in the other

40:28

scenario they potentially had a key.

40:32

We touched on the broken window leading into the

40:34

basement now let's talk about the suitcase

40:36

found in the basement near that window coming

40:38

in from that window could have been pretty simple

40:40

someone could drop down to the floor. But

40:43

getting back out through the window would be a bit

40:45

harder and would require them to climb up to

40:47

it in order to get out the suitcase

40:49

was positioned almost like someone was planning to

40:51

use or had used it as

40:54

a step to climb up and into the window well.

40:56

A single piece of glass was on top of

40:58

the suitcase fleet white had put it

41:00

there after picking it up from the floor on

41:03

the wall above the suitcase there was

41:05

clearly a visible scuff mark. One

41:07

theory is that someone plan to take

41:09

john bonnet out of the home in

41:12

the suitcase sometimes in this

41:14

theory it's an intruder hoping to

41:16

use the suitcase to transport her

41:19

out of the house before things

41:21

went wrong in the kidnapping

41:23

turned into a murder. Some

41:25

people who believe the

41:27

ramesses were involved believe they had

41:29

planned to take john bonnet body

41:31

out of the house through the

41:33

window in the suitcase to

41:36

dispose of it but if that's the case

41:38

why try to climb through the window. With

41:40

it instead of just bring it

41:42

up to the home and out the front

41:45

door not only that but if

41:47

that's your plan to get rid of

41:49

her body why call nine one one.

41:52

Before you've taken her body away

41:54

to dispose and

41:56

i think these are big question again

41:58

going back to the idea. of

42:01

what makes sense or the

42:04

question does this make sense, there's

42:06

some questions here that are

42:08

hard to answer if you're

42:11

in the camp who believes the Ramses

42:13

were involved. While

42:15

the window and suitcase may be important clues in

42:18

this case, perhaps the one that

42:20

might yield the best evidence or lead to a break in

42:22

the case is the evidence found on

42:24

Jambenay's body, most significantly the

42:26

ligature, often referred to as a

42:29

garat, the rope around Jambenay's neck

42:31

didn't seem to actually function as one.

42:34

It did have the makeshift paintbrush handle

42:36

but it wouldn't actually tighten as you twisted it. This

42:39

device, whatever you want to call it, was

42:41

obviously constructed in the basement. Not

42:43

only was Jambenay's hair tangled into the knot

42:45

tied around the stick, one broken

42:48

section of the Saint paintbrush was

42:50

found in Patsy's paint tray on the floor of

42:52

the basement. The other end has never

42:54

been found. Scientific analysis of

42:56

this ligature and collection of

42:58

evidence from it may provide DNA, fibers,

43:01

or hairs that might one day solve this

43:03

case. But again more

43:06

if one or both of the

43:08

Ramses, especially Patsy, is guilty

43:10

of trying to cover up what happens

43:12

to Jambenay, it seems as

43:14

though they used items that could be

43:17

directly linked right to them. It's

43:19

very counterintuitive to a cover-up.

43:22

What kind of cover-up trying

43:24

to point away from yourself exclusively

43:26

uses items that can be traced

43:28

to you? There's Patsy's notepad,

43:31

Patsy's paint brushes, and I think

43:33

you know this is one of

43:35

the main arguments for the intruder

43:38

theory and perhaps an intruder

43:40

who knew and hated the Ramses

43:43

and maybe even wanted to frame them. Patsy's

43:45

paint tray was found just outside

43:47

the wine cellar door on

43:50

top of a urine stain. This

43:52

area appeared to be where

43:54

Jambenay had been lying on her stomach

43:56

when her bladder released after

43:58

the assault And after being

44:01

redressed how she got to that

44:03

area and whether or not she had

44:05

already been hit on the head at that time is

44:07

still unknown. Some people see this

44:09

later as a toggle rope is for dragging

44:11

rather than a garage use for controlling. This

44:14

theory is usually linked to bark and him

44:16

possibly being involved in the sister's death. The

44:19

theory being that if you accidentally killed her

44:21

made out of been strong enough to lift her forty

44:23

five pound body up and carry away

44:26

and would need to drag her. And

44:28

she had been dragged by the neck there would

44:30

likely been more evidence of that and

44:32

her arms were above her head indicating

44:34

that she was dragged all it

44:36

would have been by the legs. Most common

44:38

theory were Burke is involved in the sister's

44:40

death that he got angry and hit

44:43

her over the head causing the

44:45

skull fracture and her immediate loss

44:47

of consciousness. And that he either

44:49

strangled her to death after the blow to her head or

44:52

that he alerted his parents and to

44:54

cover up what he did a strangle her

44:56

to death and then put into motion an

44:58

elaborate hoax about an intruder being responsible.

45:01

And obviously we're talking about

45:03

a whole boatload of theories

45:05

here because essentially

45:08

that's what you have in this case

45:10

a lot of different theories about

45:13

who could be responsible for John

45:15

bernie's death. I specifically

45:17

really want to talk about

45:19

this theory that it

45:22

was burke and then john and

45:24

patsy were involved in the

45:26

cover up. Is it possible

45:28

that at nine years old burke

45:30

could have gotten angry with

45:32

the sister hit her on the

45:35

head hurt her badly and i

45:37

would say yes that is

45:39

possible is it as

45:41

possible. That at

45:43

nine years old he would have known

45:45

how to make a garage out

45:48

of a paintbrush and i

45:50

would say maybe a little

45:53

less possible there. And

45:55

then you have to talk about a mother

45:58

and father making. the

46:00

decision that in order

46:02

to save their son, they're

46:04

either going to kill their

46:07

daughter or cover up the

46:10

fact that their son killed their daughter. Now

46:12

that first one to me is

46:14

a very tough sell. Yeah, I

46:16

agree. It's inconceivable to me that anyone

46:19

could ever, when their child

46:21

is, is her near death,

46:24

that they could ever finish

46:26

the job, so to speak, and

46:28

strangle them to death just to help cover up

46:30

with the other child, that there's no scenario possible

46:34

where if my son and daughter

46:37

did something to the other one that

46:39

I would ever do something like that.

46:41

And I think most parents would agree there's just

46:43

no scenario where they can ever do that. And

46:46

even if you were going to try to

46:48

help one child out,

46:51

doesn't it seem more likely that you would

46:53

make up some type of

46:56

scenario where there was an accident

46:58

and frame it that way? I don't

47:00

know. Some of that stuff is just a

47:03

tough sell for me. Doesn't mean

47:05

it couldn't have happened. It's

47:07

just harder for me to wrap

47:09

my head around. Yeah. And

47:12

those that think Burke could

47:14

have done it, again, we mentioned how bad

47:16

that skull fracture was in our

47:19

first part. You know, he

47:21

basically, her skull was cracked in half.

47:24

So if Burke did

47:26

that to her with whatever kind

47:28

of weapon it was that wasn't determined, we

47:30

have been strong enough to inflict an injury

47:32

like that. That's another thing that I think

47:35

sort of goes against him being

47:37

involved. One interesting clue

47:39

we're talking about has to do

47:42

with pineapple. At autopsy,

47:44

fresh pineapple was found in

47:46

John Bonet's small intestine. This

47:48

indicated that it had been eaten

47:51

about one hour before her death,

47:54

long enough to make it past her

47:56

stomach, but not long enough to be

47:58

completely digested. The pineapple. pineapple appeared

48:00

to be consistent down to the rind

48:03

with a bowl of fresh pineapple on

48:05

the table. In the breakfast

48:07

room of the Ramsey's house, this

48:09

bowl had a large spoon in it. Next

48:12

to the bowl was a glass with a

48:14

teabag in it. It's unclear if

48:16

the glass was used to discard a

48:18

teabag or if someone tried to make

48:21

tea in a glass with cold or

48:23

lukewarm water instead of a mug.

48:26

Burke's fingerprint was on the glass

48:29

and both his and Patsy's were on the

48:31

bowl. All of the Ramsey's denied

48:33

knowledge of the pineapple. Or

48:36

that John Benet got up to eat

48:38

a snack and remember according

48:40

to the Ramsey's on Christmas night, they

48:42

had brought John Benet to her bed after

48:44

she had fallen asleep in the car and

48:47

tucked her in. But at some

48:49

point after this, John Benet

48:51

ingested pineapple. Some

48:53

people argue that the pineapple is likely

48:55

from fruit cocktail and that cherries

48:58

and grape skins were also found in John

49:00

Benet's small intestine. The explanation here is

49:02

that she ate fruit cocktail at the White's.

49:05

However, the most popular theory that

49:07

has Burke responsible for John Benet's death

49:09

is a fight over the pineapple left out on the

49:12

table. Perhaps John Benet grabbed some of

49:14

Burke's late night snack and it upset him, causing

49:16

him to react and he hit her

49:19

head with a flashlight or a baseball bat. Or

49:21

maybe they were enjoying the snack together when she

49:23

threatened to tell about something or just

49:25

annoyed him like little sisters sometimes do, resulting

49:28

in John and Patsy covering up what happened.

49:31

But we also need to talk

49:33

more about the genital injuries found

49:36

on John Benet at autopsy. Doctors

49:38

seem to disagree about the

49:40

nature of the injuries. However,

49:42

not all of the people giving opinions

49:45

about the cause had access to the

49:47

same materials to review. As we mentioned

49:49

in part one, Dr. Kirchner

49:52

only had the autopsy report. He

49:55

told the daily camera without

49:57

seeing the autopsy photographs. It's

50:00

hard to say whether it could

50:02

be an inaccurate measurement, prior injury,

50:05

or normal anatomic

50:07

variation. John Bonet's

50:10

pediatrician, Dr. Francesco

50:12

Booth, denied any evidence of

50:15

prior sexual abuse. While

50:17

John Bonet had been examined by

50:19

the doctor multiple times, not

50:22

long before she died, it's not

50:24

likely the exams were as thorough

50:26

as her autopsy was in her

50:28

genital region, if that area

50:30

was examined at all by the doctor.

50:33

Some of John Bonet's visits were for

50:35

injuries or allergies, so there would really

50:38

be no reason for the

50:40

doctor to check for sexual abuse

50:42

during those exams. The last

50:44

time that area is even mentioned in

50:46

her medical records that we have access

50:48

to is in 1995, when

50:52

she had chicken pox which

50:54

had spread to her genital

50:56

region. Some people think

50:58

that John Bonet may have been sexually

51:00

assaulted or abused on an ongoing basis

51:02

before she was killed. While

51:04

most people don't dispute the fact that John Bonet

51:07

was sexually assaulted at or near the time of

51:09

her death, there's disagreement whether it

51:11

was a one-time thing done by her killer

51:13

or if she had been the victim of ongoing sex

51:15

abuse for some time. What we

51:17

do see argued is that the chronic inflammation

51:20

found at autopsy was not a sign of

51:22

chronic sexual abuse. Dr. Joan

51:24

Sluke, a pediatrician with the Ballard

51:26

College of Medicine in Houston, as

51:29

reported in a summary report by Detective

51:31

Linda Arnn stated that poor

51:33

hygiene can sometimes cause chronic

51:35

inflammation. While John Bonet

51:38

was potty trained, she was

51:40

still having accidents overnight sometimes.

51:43

She had regressed since 1993

51:46

when Patsy's cancer symptoms

51:48

were severe and

51:50

the household was in upheaval. In

51:52

April 1994, John

51:54

Bonet was diagnosed with vaginitis

51:57

and a bladder infection. She

51:59

was given a antibiotics and Patsy was

52:01

told not to use bubble bath

52:04

as it can irritate the area. In

52:06

September 1993 the area

52:09

along with her buttocks was chafed

52:11

from diarrhea. We've not seen

52:14

the materials we would need to review to

52:16

be able to even make a guess

52:19

as to the cause of the chronic

52:21

inflammation and we certainly don't have

52:23

the education needed to give that kind of

52:25

opinion. According to Dr. Cheryl

52:28

Wecht in Detective Arndt's report, with

52:30

epithelial erosion that

52:32

would suggest something that is older, some

52:35

type of instrumentality that was rubbed against

52:37

the vaginal wall and caused it to

52:39

erode. And according to Dr. Kirchner,

52:42

her hymenal opening was about twice the diameter

52:44

it should be. It's hard to

52:46

ignore those two opinions because they

52:48

indicate something greater than irritation from

52:50

bubble baths or bad hygiene. Unfortunately

52:54

the identity of the person who

52:56

may have been abusing John Bonet if there

52:58

was one was not obvious from

53:00

the injuries which could have been caused by an

53:02

object or a finger. This would become

53:04

another thing for people to argue about in this case.

53:07

But if it was proven that John Bonet was

53:09

the victim of ongoing sex abuse and then

53:11

was murdered, that abuse and who

53:13

was responsible may become that much more

53:16

important. Let's talk about some

53:18

more evidence that being the underwear

53:20

John Bonet was found wearing. They

53:22

were part of the set that each had

53:24

a day of the week printed on them. She

53:27

was in the Wednesday pair, but

53:30

they were too large for her. This

53:32

ended up being a pair that was

53:34

part of a set Patsy and John

53:36

Bonet had picked out at Bloomingdale's to

53:39

send an older family member.

53:41

They were a size 12, much larger than

53:43

the size 6 John Bonet

53:46

normally wore. Interestingly, Christmas

53:48

was on a Wednesday that year,

53:51

giving a clue about when John

53:53

Bonet was redressed. In 2000,

53:56

Patsy claimed she had put the underwear in

53:59

John Bonet's underwear. Where door? But.

54:01

Many people still think they may have

54:03

been wrapped in the basement with other

54:05

presence waiting to go to family and

54:08

friends. If this were true, Then

54:10

someone needed to redress Jonbenet. Without.

54:13

Going back upstairs in it

54:15

easier or number of questions.

54:18

Know. Regarding. The. Underwear.

54:21

Past. He claimed that she had

54:23

put them. In Germany's

54:25

underwear drawer. But. You would. They.

54:27

Did she would realize these are

54:29

way too big? These can't be

54:32

Jonbenet. And then I think there's. An.

54:35

Overarching question. Which.

54:37

Is. Why? Would the

54:39

killer. Need. To redress

54:41

Jon Benet at all. Yet

54:43

to some people may be that points to.

54:46

That. The killer Somebody that. Cares

54:48

for Jon Benet and we hear about.

54:51

Murder. Victims who are covered by their.

54:53

Killer. Out of respect or.

54:56

That it shows a level of terror.

54:58

Love. So. Some. People might point

55:00

her being are dressed as a sign. That.

55:02

Someone who did this to her, cared about her

55:05

and didn't want her to be sound. Completely.

55:07

Nude. But. All these things that

55:09

were talking about. I. Think

55:12

they just. You. Lead to

55:14

the. Fascination. In the

55:16

states are so many questions. That.

55:19

So. Far. Have not

55:21

been able. To. Be conclusively

55:24

answer. And I think

55:26

in this case, there's no bit of

55:28

evidence that can be more important consequential

55:30

than Dna evidence. And. There are

55:32

unknown Dna profiles in this case. Dna.

55:35

Was collected from under Germany's fingernails.

55:38

But. Some however argue that this could

55:40

be contamination. From. The fingernail clippers

55:42

at the moored. It was also

55:44

Dna profile pulled from the blood in

55:46

Germany's underwear. This. Is generally thought

55:48

to be saliva. Though. It can be

55:50

argued that the presence of yarn cause to

55:52

to appear to be saliva rather than other

55:55

types of dna. But. Discussion of this

55:57

dna and science behind it. Really?

55:59

gets and and it's hard to understand

56:01

from any casual servers. These

56:04

DNA profiles have been referenced in the

56:06

media since at least January 1999. The

56:09

problem is no one knows

56:12

how the DNA got where it was

56:14

found. So the importance

56:16

is disputed. Many

56:18

believe it's a mixture of

56:21

multiple different innocent touch DNA

56:23

profiles, which is why the

56:25

single profile doesn't match anyone,

56:28

including anyone in the Ramsey family.

56:30

In 2016, there

56:32

were reports that the DNA on

56:34

John Bonet's long jaws was from

56:36

at least two different people. Some

56:39

people think that the DNA is

56:41

from a factory worker who

56:43

folded the underwear that John Bonet

56:45

was redressed in. After all,

56:47

it seemed like it had been pulled

56:50

straight from the package as part of

56:52

the staging. One controversial but

56:54

possibly very important clue in John

56:56

Bonet's case was whether or not a

56:58

stun gun may have been used on her. There

57:00

are marks on her face and back that some people

57:03

think are stun gun marks. Others

57:05

think that the ends of Burke's electric train

57:07

track match much more closely. If

57:09

it was the train track, it doesn't

57:11

automatically implicate Burke since the train set was

57:13

in the basement near where John Bonet was

57:16

likely attacked and killed. John Bonet's

57:18

parents and family and even good family friends

57:20

would have no reason to need to threaten

57:23

or incapacitate her with a stun gun. She

57:25

would have likely willingly followed them into the

57:27

basement or out of the home quietly. Only

57:30

an intruder, a sadistic one at that, would

57:33

need to use a stun gun on a six-year-old girl in

57:35

order to get her to comply. To

57:37

this day, there's quite a debate amongst the experts

57:39

as to whether or not a stun gun was

57:41

used. Another potential major

57:43

clue was a boot print found at

57:46

the scene. There was a

57:48

high-tech boot logo in the muck

57:50

on the wine cellar floor. It

57:52

was unclear who had left it, but it

57:54

was possibly from the killer. Many

57:57

hope this could identify the killer or

57:59

at least... who placed her body there. Though

58:02

the brand of boot could be identified,

58:04

the logo didn't give any information about

58:07

the size of the shoe or

58:09

the wearer. Eventually, articles began

58:11

to confirm that this boot

58:13

print belonged to Burke. It's

58:15

not exactly a smoking gun because Burke

58:18

had a whole room he liked to

58:20

play in down in the basement in

58:22

what he called his train room, which

58:25

had an electric train set. He

58:27

was down in the basement a lot. The

58:29

Ramses also kept their

58:31

wrapped presents down in the basement,

58:34

and it's possible Burke snooped in the wine

58:36

cellar before Christmas. His

58:38

birthday was coming up too, so

58:40

they would have had presents hidden after

58:42

Christmas, and it would be pretty

58:45

obvious that they were for him. Maybe he

58:47

snooped when they got home from the whites.

58:49

Of course, if the boot print was Burke's

58:51

and he didn't have anything to do with

58:54

his sister's death, then it

58:56

seems like a pretty worthless clue. So

58:59

let's consider a couple theories. We've already

59:01

talked a bit about them, but there are

59:03

two main, often competing theories in this case,

59:05

and one of them has to be correct. Many

59:08

people suspect that John Bonet was killed by

59:10

someone who belonged in that home, and

59:12

that at least one of the Ramses was

59:14

directly responsible for John Bonet's murder. While

59:17

many others believe that she was killed by someone

59:19

outside of the family, usually called

59:21

the intruder theory. Some theories

59:23

blur the lines and combine elements of both,

59:26

but there are truly two main camps in this

59:28

case, especially in online discussions.

59:31

So let's look at the theory that

59:33

has one of the Ramses killing John

59:35

Bonet in many cases where a

59:37

child is murdered in their own home. One

59:40

or both parents is responsible. So

59:42

it's natural to look toward the people who lived

59:44

in the home when we look

59:47

for a suspect in this case. After all,

59:49

the ransom note had been written on a

59:51

pad of paper that belonged to

59:53

the Ramses and it

59:55

had even been written with their Sharpie.

59:58

Both items were still in the home. neatly

1:00:00

where they belonged when investigators

1:00:02

arrived on the morning of December 26, 1996. In

1:00:07

January 1997, friends

1:00:09

of the Ramsey family were

1:00:11

reporting that investigators were

1:00:13

looking for signs of past abuse.

1:00:16

Shirley Brady, who had been the family's nanny from

1:00:18

1986 to 1989 in Atlanta, told the Daily Camera.

1:00:24

They asked me if the first divorce

1:00:27

ended because of child abuse

1:00:29

or if I had heard anything about

1:00:32

child abuse ever mentioned. She

1:00:34

also noted that investigators specifically

1:00:36

asked her how the

1:00:38

children acted when they were around

1:00:40

their daddy. The investigation had

1:00:42

expanded to include Elizabeth Ramsey too,

1:00:45

though she hadn't been murdered. She had

1:00:47

died in a car crash. A family

1:00:49

friend speaking to the Daily Camera said, The

1:00:52

police have asked me about child abuse and

1:00:54

how Beth acted around her dad and

1:00:56

how John Monae acted around her dad. I

1:00:59

told them the children loved their father. He

1:01:01

is a very kind person. By May

1:01:03

1, 1997, John

1:01:05

Ramsey was well aware that many people suspected him.

1:01:08

According to the Daily Camera, he said

1:01:10

speaking directly to the media, To

1:01:12

those of you who may want to ask, let

1:01:14

me address it very directly. I did

1:01:16

not kill my daughter, John Monae. He

1:01:19

denied what he called innuendos about sexual

1:01:21

abuse. He said, John Monae and

1:01:23

I had a very close relationship. And

1:01:25

he added that I will miss her dearly for the rest

1:01:27

of my life. So I just want

1:01:29

to say this more. If you are

1:01:31

a father and your daughter

1:01:34

is murdered, first of all, you have to

1:01:36

deal with that, which is unthinkable.

1:01:39

And then if you had nothing to

1:01:41

do with it whatsoever, to

1:01:43

have people suspect you of

1:01:46

murdering your daughter, sexually

1:01:48

abusing your daughter, that

1:01:51

is very tough stuff to deal

1:01:53

with. Yeah, I think an allegation like

1:01:55

that would just be so hurtful on top of the

1:01:57

fact that you've already lost your daughter. daughter

1:02:01

brutally murdered and then to have

1:02:03

people think that you had something to do with it

1:02:05

and that you may have been sexually abusing it, it

1:02:08

would be horrible to be in his shoes. And

1:02:10

as we've said, you know, there

1:02:12

are people who suspect the Ramesses,

1:02:14

but there are also many

1:02:16

people who feel very sorry for them and

1:02:19

what happened to them as a result of

1:02:21

their daughter's death. I think you have to

1:02:23

say that as well. In

1:02:25

the summer of 1997, detective

1:02:28

aren't went on an extended break

1:02:30

using her medical leave as

1:02:32

the Denver post described it to

1:02:35

deal with the physical exhaustion and

1:02:37

strain the investigation caused her

1:02:39

in March, 1999. She resigned

1:02:42

from the Boulder police department later

1:02:44

that year. Aren't spoke to good

1:02:46

morning America on the show. She

1:02:48

said, there's no doubt in my mind who

1:02:51

killed John Benet, but we were

1:02:53

left to wonder who she suspected because

1:02:56

she wouldn't identify the individual

1:02:58

or individuals by name. She

1:03:00

went on to say, while this investigation

1:03:02

is still ongoing, I don't

1:03:04

think it's appropriate that I say that name

1:03:06

out loud. It seems that

1:03:09

aren't didn't feel like anything

1:03:11

would change the eventual outcome

1:03:13

of the investigation. As she

1:03:15

said, very confidently, the person

1:03:17

who killed John Benet will not

1:03:19

see justice as we would like to see.

1:03:22

But she didn't explain why she

1:03:24

thought this. So

1:03:26

there were questions. Was the suspect

1:03:29

dead? Was this a very

1:03:31

powerful person? Was there not enough

1:03:33

evidence that the person could be

1:03:35

charged? What was keeping justice

1:03:37

so far from reach, even

1:03:40

with the identity of her killer? The

1:03:43

only real hint we had about aren't suspicion

1:03:45

is that she recalled being terrified when she

1:03:47

saw John Ramsey holding John Benet's

1:03:50

lifeless body. They locked eyes in

1:03:52

what the daily camera described as a

1:03:54

nonverbal exchange, and it caused her,

1:03:56

as the Denver Post described, to

1:03:58

consciously count out the. 18 bullets in

1:04:00

her gun. She did this, she

1:04:02

explained, because she didn't know if they'd all

1:04:05

be alive when people showed up. Art

1:04:08

was much more clear during a later deposition saying

1:04:10

it was clear that John had killed John Benet. At

1:04:13

the time of the deposition, she also believed

1:04:15

that Patsy was involved in presenting the murder

1:04:17

as something other than a murder. So

1:04:20

first off, that's a pretty strong statement to

1:04:23

make during a deposition. It

1:04:25

was clear that John had killed John

1:04:28

Benet. Now the second part

1:04:30

of that statement, I really

1:04:32

didn't understand where she said that she

1:04:35

believed that Patsy was involved in

1:04:37

presenting the murder as something

1:04:40

other than a murder. What does that

1:04:42

mean? Yeah, I think from all the evidence, this

1:04:45

was clearly no one here,

1:04:47

the Ramses or anyone else is saying this is

1:04:49

some kind of accident that happened that

1:04:51

she accidentally was found in

1:04:53

the basement with bindings

1:04:56

on and strangled. That

1:04:58

ransom note, that wasn't an accident. I think

1:05:01

everyone agrees all the way around that this

1:05:03

is no accident. So how Detective

1:05:06

Art was saying that Patsy

1:05:08

was involved in something that presented

1:05:11

the case as something

1:05:13

other than a murder is kind of strange. Unless

1:05:17

she was directly referring to

1:05:19

maybe writing the ransom note

1:05:21

to throw the police off, I

1:05:24

don't know. And maybe that harkens

1:05:26

back to if she was

1:05:28

one of the believers that Patsy's handwriting

1:05:30

matched that letter, then maybe

1:05:32

that sold her on the fact Patsy

1:05:34

was involved. John wasn't

1:05:37

the only Ramsey under suspicion. They

1:05:39

all were. Although in March 1997, John,

1:05:43

Andrew and Melinda were officially

1:05:45

clear to suspects due to

1:05:47

their verified alibi. Patsy

1:05:49

told the Daily Camera, I'm a

1:05:51

Paul that anyone would think that John

1:05:54

or I would be involved in such

1:05:56

a hideous heinous crime adding,

1:05:58

but let me. you that I

1:06:01

did not kill John Bonnet and

1:06:03

did not have anything to do with it." According

1:06:06

to author Lawrence Schiller, in

1:06:08

a daily camera article, all

1:06:10

the detectives agreed that one major

1:06:12

mistake had been made in the

1:06:14

first week, which was that Patsy

1:06:16

Ramsey had not been arrested.

1:06:19

Whether or not she was the killer, authorities

1:06:21

believe she was definitely the weak link.

1:06:24

Schiller explained that the

1:06:26

detectives were sure that if only

1:06:28

DA Hunter had agreed to jail

1:06:30

Patsy, even for a short time, she

1:06:33

would have caved. The handwriting is

1:06:35

a point of contention for many who

1:06:37

follow the case. It's commonly

1:06:39

stated that experts concluded

1:06:41

that Patsy's handwriting matched the

1:06:43

handwriting of the ransom note.

1:06:46

According to Mark Beckner in a

1:06:48

deposition, handwriting experts noted

1:06:51

some similarities, and not

1:06:53

enough to say she wrote the note. And

1:06:55

as we mentioned before, unlike DNA

1:06:58

or fingerprints, a handwriting

1:07:00

match is not exact

1:07:02

science or physical proof.

1:07:05

It's a matter of someone's opinion. So

1:07:08

let's say for a moment that John Bonnet Ramsey

1:07:10

was killed by an immediate family member. What

1:07:13

are the possible motives and why covered up? Next

1:07:15

week in Part 3 of our John Bonnet Ramsey coverage,

1:07:18

we'll talk about all of that, as well

1:07:20

as look into the possibility that an

1:07:22

outsider is responsible for John Bonnet's death.

1:07:26

And we'll also touch on some of the potential suspects and

1:07:28

strange or odd nuggets of information in this

1:07:30

case as we wrap up John

1:07:32

Bonnet's coverage. So that's it for

1:07:35

Episode 2 of

1:07:37

the John Bonnet Ramsey case, but there's a

1:07:39

lot to come. In the

1:07:41

last installment, Part 3, we

1:07:44

talked about a lot of

1:07:46

evidence. We talked about a lot of

1:07:49

theories, but we're really going

1:07:51

to get into potential

1:07:54

suspects. And I

1:07:56

think when you start to look at the

1:07:58

outsider... Here. Are. Some

1:08:01

really interesting. People.

1:08:04

Theories. Ideas. Yeah,

1:08:07

I think all that is what

1:08:09

makes this case so fascinating. And.

1:08:13

He has captured. The. attention

1:08:15

of people. For. So many

1:08:17

years and there's definitely a lot of.

1:08:20

Potential. Suspects some persons of interest that

1:08:22

we're gonna talk about. And. Some

1:08:24

circumstances that make them. Look.

1:08:26

Good on paper. But. Rosset

1:08:28

have a talk about. Things. That might

1:08:30

rule them out. Says can be interesting conversation

1:08:32

as we wrap up. The Jon

1:08:35

Benet Ramsey case. If. You love

1:08:37

the show but haven't done so. Yeah, take

1:08:39

a minute. Go Out gives a five star

1:08:41

rating. You can leave a review as well,

1:08:44

but keep telling your friends word of mouth

1:08:46

about the podcast Really helps us out. If

1:08:49

you want to find us on

1:08:51

social media, you can find us

1:08:53

on acts with the handle Act

1:08:55

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1:08:57

to school or facebook.com/criminology podcast. And

1:08:59

you can you interface of discussion group from

1:09:01

an orgy podcast his cousin and fans.

1:09:04

So. That's it for another episode of Criminology.

1:09:06

Bit more fun. I would be back with

1:09:08

all of the. Next. Saturday

1:09:10

night. With. The Final Installment

1:09:12

Part Three. On Jon

1:09:15

Benet Ramsey. So until then for

1:09:17

my. And. Morph. We'll. Talk

1:09:19

to you next week. Take. Care of ring.