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1:29

hello everyone and welcome to episode

1:31

to seventeen of the criminology podcast

1:34

on my services

1:35

in this is mike more

1:37

like morford man why is going on with

1:39

you

1:40

little bit under the weather today feeling

1:42

a second you know the kids

1:45

i think it's second pass alone and me really

1:47

is him like a magnet for but i'm i'm gonna

1:50

the rhine for this and get this episode out with new

1:52

the

1:53

the and i'm i'm doing my saying

1:55

what i will say is you know kids agree

1:57

the great

1:58

they they do

1:59

pass on a lot of stuff there around

2:02

a lot of other kids they're

2:04

kind of

2:05

the kind of germy a little bit some sustenance

2:08

yeah my son goes to summer camp and i'm

2:10

sure he's getting who knows what they're in in

2:12

school starts for us down here in

2:14

the next week and half so should

2:17

be interesting to see what's what starts going

2:19

around

2:19

wow you guys start does school very early

2:22

yeah but the biggest for benefit as they get out of other

2:24

too so the piano looking

2:26

that makes sense hey let's go ahead and

2:28

give our patrons shout outs we had

2:30

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2:35

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it means a lot to us and for anyone

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out there that would like to help support criminology

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on patriot and you can do so by going to patriot

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2:56

the more before we jump into the subsurface

2:58

it we have to talk a real

3:00

quick about some reason

3:03

true crime news and nasty around

3:05

the somerton man i'm getting

3:08

emails from a lot of people are

3:10

done a little bit of research to read

3:12

a few articles not a time but

3:15

you know it's it's interesting staff

3:17

obviously that's a that's a very

3:19

old case then on saw

3:22

for many many years and

3:24

it's one it's fascinated people

3:26

around the world because there

3:28

are a lot of fascinating aspect

3:30

to that case a lot of

3:33

possible the series

3:35

you know including the guy being a spy

3:38

in this man i'm just all kinds of different

3:40

things the when i found really

3:42

interesting is calling

3:45

sits patrick's role she was

3:47

involved in the you

3:49

saab genetic genie out

3:52

they're calling those awesome work and

3:54

you know these cases getting saw this really cool

3:56

i haven't had chance to really read about it too

3:58

much because i've been sick last these but i

4:01

did see the headlines laugh at how cool is that

4:03

the see one of these cases in a lot

4:05

of people spent time on

4:07

online trying to school

4:08

the be solved like so many other cases that were saying

4:11

it's it's a great job either

4:12

people and companies are hoping to get these

4:15

cases salt yeah is is

4:17

very cool am sure more details

4:19

will come out in the near future i

4:21

don't believe that the authorities

4:23

have the inclusive

4:25

li approved of their

4:27

their solution but i

4:29

can't imagine the wrong

4:32

because based on what i saw it's

4:34

it seems pretty clear cut that was

4:36

yeah and i also saw some headlines to

4:38

that jon benet ramsey families sort

4:41

of sort of renewing interest in

4:43

that case after cc more

4:45

who worked for pair of on me com and

4:47

said their case can be solved i think

4:49

you're scummy bring you to push for that how great would be

4:51

to see or case be solved after

4:54

so many years

4:55

yeah i mean people that would be tremendous

4:59

he goes along with what you and i've been saying for a

5:01

long time i mean heck we did a whole season

5:04

on these types of cases and genetic

5:06

genealogy know that's you there

5:09

are people out there that have to be shaking

5:12

in their boots who have

5:14

gotten away with something terrible for

5:16

a very long time and

5:18

now have to be feeling very

5:21

vulnerable like they're going to get caught

5:23

that the uni all the stuff is really

5:26

cool the way it works and it's it's not just the

5:28

bad guys it's the on a done a fine the

5:30

a nose and john those are out there to

5:32

who finally will have a name and their families

5:34

will find out what happened

5:36

to them hopefully so it's it's good work

5:38

all the way around

5:40

yeah that that's a good point i was going

5:42

jump into this episode you know a lot of times

5:44

when we discuss the case on this show it

5:47

involves family members of missing

5:49

or murder victims seeking

5:51

justice and waiting for answers their

5:54

loved ones case has gone unsolved his

5:56

family members are perhaps waiting

5:59

to put a face the name to the person

6:01

did took their loved one away

6:04

from them so they can get justice a

6:06

lot of time we hear about anguished parents

6:09

the aspirin for

6:11

it seemed as though in some of these

6:13

cases is a parent of the v in

6:17

not some nameless

6:19

faceless stranger this preventing

6:21

that truth and justice still recovering

6:23

two different cases in this episode

6:26

oh they're very similar but with

6:28

very different outcomes we're

6:31

talking about the nineteen ninety two disappearance

6:33

of mony daniels a

6:35

fifteen year old from more oklahoma

6:38

the and the two thousand eleven disappearance

6:41

of five year old jesse shock from

6:44

arizona

6:45

only daniels was the oldest of six children

6:47

he had three full biological siblings

6:50

two brothers and sister law had

6:52

the same mother candace the offered

6:54

to have brothers who are twins the

6:56

twins were the children of candace in your new

6:58

husband charles daniels who would become

7:00

stepfather dominique in her siblings monex

7:03

biological father the father of

7:05

the for oldest children had abused her

7:07

when she was younger ultimately ended

7:09

up in prison for sex offense charges the

7:11

children welcome the new stepfather excited

7:14

for new life with a happy family charles

7:16

known as truck candace were both

7:19

active members of the us military struggles

7:21

an airforce sarge they were living in more

7:23

oklahoma and ninety ninety two

7:26

instead of a new and fresh family life that

7:28

promised to bright future

7:29

the only struggles in fact you

7:32

got into trouble lot in shock was very

7:34

straight

7:35

that may candice took

7:37

angelica and bryan on a week

7:39

long trip with their church choir no

7:42

need to was weeks away from

7:44

turning sixteen stayed behind when

7:46

they returned home money was gone the

7:49

conversation that took place between

7:51

candace and chalk seemed odd

7:54

angeles' who witnessed since she

7:56

later told crimewatch day

7:58

all chuck the a new sold

7:59

when they returned home was she's

8:02

gone again in her mom candice

8:04

reportedly as

8:06

really

8:07

in response in as seem to be it

8:09

there's no real further questions

8:12

no follow up no real emotion

8:15

interleague also remembers coming home from

8:17

the trip to a disorderly house

8:20

something that was not the norm any

8:23

kind of mass was out of here for

8:26

their military parents annually

8:28

detailed for true crime do how

8:31

organized and clean things

8:33

usually worth saying something

8:35

was off something was wrong the

8:38

house was in a disarray we're

8:40

talking about a spotless environment

8:43

all the time what are usually saw

8:45

were multiple beer cans spread

8:47

around cigarette butts inside

8:49

the house they had actually been put

8:51

out right on the mantle of

8:54

the fireplace not even in an

8:56

ashtray and on the bathroom town

8:58

there was a box for a pregnancy

9:01

test and it was empty

9:03

that are no by you make but if i came

9:05

home from being away and family

9:08

my kids missing in this

9:10

situation that was

9:12

not the norm

9:13

i think i'd have more to say than

9:17

oh she is missing and that said i'd

9:19

be asking questions i'd be making phone calls

9:21

i'd be worried and

9:23

i think angelica sense that this wasn't

9:25

the case with her mom when she came

9:27

home that there wasn't this urgency

9:30

about money being on the i think

9:32

to a lot of people the fact that her mom

9:34

and truck really didn't

9:37

take it serious didn't seem to have any urgency

9:40

the rug a lot of people the wrong way and

9:42

and leak certainly thought extreme

9:44

why don't come from a military family but

9:46

growing up i had some friends

9:49

who did and yeah

9:51

i can remember their

9:53

parents the at least the

9:55

the parent that was in the motor been

9:58

very strict much strict then

10:00

the most of my other friends his parents

10:02

you know and and the house being

10:04

a little more spotless than

10:07

than maybe some of the other homes i'd visit

10:09

though it does make sense that

10:12

you will you come home the

10:15

this array and it's

10:17

so out of the nor from once

10:19

you're used to in your head you have

10:22

to be thinking what is going on

10:24

there was one witness a neighbor who

10:26

believe they saw money get into a man's truck

10:29

taking some clothes with the last issue

10:31

scene shocking candace were clearly

10:33

under the impression that money can run away voluntarily

10:36

or at least that's how things seem ingrid

10:38

been rough and home recently because money could

10:40

told her parents who choose pragma they

10:43

forced her to terminate a pregnancy even

10:45

if she didn't want it

10:46

because it

10:47

the runway for several days angela

10:50

said that when she went missing parents

10:52

were really concerned

10:54

he told crimewatch daily

10:56

my parents look for every single day

10:58

yeah to that woman he was missing

11:00

the phone would ring and somebody would say

11:02

that they may have seen money they

11:04

would jump in their vehicle and go to tried chaser

11:06

down

11:07

one of my next friends finally convinced her to

11:09

go back home after few days train work

11:11

things out with her parents according

11:13

to check in qantas because

11:16

of this recent incident the

11:18

chose not to file a missing persons

11:20

report moaning the said

11:22

that they figured she would come home

11:24

again what she never did they

11:27

turned into weeks still no

11:29

one ever contacted authorities about

11:31

her disappearance in fact the daniels

11:34

spam the new portraits together

11:37

and replace the old ones that

11:39

had included mony and the

11:41

league recounted for crimewatch daily

11:43

how chuck would say that he

11:46

found the house was now

11:48

trying since mony good laughs

11:51

they talked about how everything was just so

11:53

much better with her go italy

11:56

was confused that how things

11:58

seem to just go on normally while

12:00

there was no sign of money no

12:02

one really look the overheard shock

12:04

tell candace if mon need wanted

12:07

to be here she would be

12:09

it wasn't long before chalking candace began

12:11

tone the other children not to talk about mooney

12:14

not even mention

12:16

it was like they wanted to children to forget that she

12:18

that ever existed

12:19

financially knew something was wrong

12:21

he would later tell oklahoma news for

12:23

i do not believe that mooney left the house

12:26

during the trip with the church choir

12:28

interleague recall the candace was really

12:30

quiet honestly she had known something

12:32

was wrong

12:33

the even when children do runaway

12:35

the families usually don't tend to get rid of all signs

12:38

of their existence many families hesitate

12:40

to move or change their phone numbers just

12:43

in case or child tries to call writer

12:45

come back home the life does go

12:47

on a new family portraits can be taken

12:49

replace all photos included you're missing child

12:52

seems unusual to many people

12:54

yeah i mean i'm really jumped out

12:56

at me your i could understand

12:59

the aging

13:01

okay she laughed she done it before

13:03

she laugh but so combat but

13:05

as time goes on doesn't the

13:07

worry increase increase

13:10

increase but this replacing

13:12

up the photos that

13:15

is really hit and i do you

13:17

will hit a lot of people to

13:19

set of want to watch

13:22

when here children out of existence

13:24

that that just doesn't seem

13:27

right

13:28

it up we seem to the opposite of what we've seen

13:30

many these cases where people sometimes

13:33

make these shrines to their kids

13:35

their it's all the think about they don't

13:37

they won't change anything in the room it's just like

13:39

it was when they left and they're hoping

13:42

that they come home i've heard cases where the

13:44

people leave christmas presents for

13:46

them and birthday present things like that to be

13:48

open when they come back home so this seems

13:50

almost the opposite of a lot of that stuff that

13:53

it's doubly out of the norm there's no doubt

13:55

about that in january nineteen

13:57

ninety three candice his sister

14:00

lovely moaning zandt called

14:02

asking for the case number so that

14:04

she could contact the national

14:06

center for missing and exploited

14:09

children when kinda couldn't produce

14:11

one lovely called the more police

14:13

department asking for an update on

14:15

mon it's keeps this is house you first

14:17

learn that her niece had never

14:20

been reported missing moaning

14:22

fan lazily ask candice

14:24

why there was no report and

14:26

apparently candice had no real answer

14:29

two days later the and week received

14:32

a phone call from moaning they're

14:34

younger brothers stood list the

14:36

usually side of the conversation

14:39

as she asked moaning she

14:41

called nikki how she was done

14:43

one week later the daniels

14:45

got a letter the ammonia it

14:48

was postmarked from dallas

14:50

texas almost two hundred miles

14:52

away from their more oklahoma

14:54

in that letter money discussed for

14:57

life brief

14:58

he said it sooner new husband lived in alaska

15:01

they've been traveling the united states for his work

15:03

the while they were in dallas she decided

15:05

to write a letter home the claim it seen

15:07

her husband had a baby a daughter named

15:09

chelsea it seemed like money was fine

15:12

somewhere live your life without her family the

15:15

my goes very convenient timing for candace

15:17

since her sister leslie was looking for money

15:20

lovely didn't buy any of it especially

15:23

since the call and letter came just days after

15:25

she started asking her sister candace

15:27

about are missing nice level we felt

15:29

that something was off that she was concerned

15:32

though to me more if there's a couple of things

15:35

in this ladder that heard

15:38

in the letter or the timing of the last

15:40

that seem a little lost

15:43

a mean obviously it is strange that

15:45

the call and the letter

15:47

the curve

15:48

right after lazily starts really

15:51

trying to to push candace

15:54

about the a what's going on

15:57

why is are no missing persons report

15:59

in in dimension of

16:02

mooney

16:03

having a

16:05

daughter the this letter

16:07

comes in january of nineteen ninety two

16:09

the little bit over six months

16:12

after she went missing

16:14

we mentioned it you know an all the reporting

16:17

it talks about how her

16:19

family forced her to terminate

16:21

a pregnancy so how

16:23

does she have a daughter six

16:25

months later

16:26

the climbing seems sort of like a red flag

16:28

and less we don't know how

16:31

far back it was could she have been

16:33

a few months pregnant when she disappeared

16:35

and then given birth rate

16:37

for this letter came in it seems feasible

16:39

but we don't have all the details

16:41

and the time is deathly yeah

16:44

tight if if it's possible at all

16:46

another letter apparently from only

16:49

team to the home in september nineteen

16:51

ninety three that lovely was still suspicious

16:54

and she contacted the more police department

16:56

again this time hoping for

16:58

a handwriting analysis because

17:01

she thought it was her sister candace the

17:03

not mooney who had written letters

17:06

candice agreed to turn the letters over

17:08

for a hand writing sample analysis but

17:11

the day before she was set to him

17:13

the most someone burglarize

17:16

the daniels home

17:18

there were few things the

17:21

place inside the house

17:23

furniture was knocked over the really nothing

17:25

of value was missing some

17:27

cds of a boombox

17:30

or two but the big saying

17:32

was that the letters that

17:34

were scheduled to be turned over

17:36

to police were gone though

17:38

that point lovely was more confident

17:41

than ever that something bad had happened

17:43

to her knees and that her own sister

17:45

since may have had something

17:47

to do with

17:48

i think ahead be a real wake up call for leslie

17:51

to get to the point where she says to

17:53

herself

17:54

i think my own sister had something

17:56

to do with her daughters disappearance

17:59

the get to that you we hear all time but

18:01

families are support of they are and they face

18:03

i don't think they could ever do something like this

18:06

i am not in their character but

18:08

here leslie seem confident that

18:11

something bad had happened in kansas was somehow

18:13

involved

18:14

yeah i think it's a great pointed your bring up

18:16

the oh how does someone get to that

18:19

point most people i know bleed

18:21

start out there no it's it's

18:23

hard to see that a blood

18:25

relative be no of sister

18:28

a brother a mom and dad a son and

18:30

daughter would do something

18:32

for obviously

18:34

at some point leslie got there because

18:36

she started believing that

18:38

it was possible and i want to talk about

18:41

coincidences those

18:43

have you know in some of these cases

18:46

more at what point

18:48

do you stop believing that

18:50

something or you know a series

18:52

of events are just

18:54

random coincidences when

18:57

they seem to come

18:59

out of nowhere and

19:01

be very be very

19:03

yeah we're not talking about one thing if

19:05

some single thing happened that

19:07

would be one thing like when leslie started

19:10

asking questions there's call

19:12

on this letter that comes in right away

19:15

so that's one coincidence

19:17

but then later when this letter

19:19

supposed to be turned over to police there's

19:21

a burglaries supposedly and

19:23

these letters are supposed to be turned over to

19:26

police mysteriously year or

19:28

taken in what value they have to

19:30

someone burglaries and know so i think

19:32

it it starts to become clear why

19:35

lovely had these suspicions it wasn't

19:37

until january of nineteen ninety four that

19:39

some of the truth was revealed and

19:42

league like more neat was thought to

19:44

a right away the took a bus from

19:46

oklahoma to her aunt's house michigan this

19:49

time how can candace filed a missing

19:51

persons report with the police almost immediately

19:54

michigan

19:55

actually contact authorities she

19:57

alleged about shock in kansas

19:59

ugly and mentally abused or killed angelica

20:02

admitted to the police that money had never

20:05

called her on the phone and she had never

20:07

written any letters home

20:08

she told him it sure can force you to write

20:10

the letters

20:11

and even went as far as to drive annually

20:13

to douse in order to get them postmarked

20:15

in texas angelica hadn't said anything

20:18

to anyone tried to stop him from pretending

20:20

when he was safe because chuck told her

20:22

that candace was feeling suicidal

20:24

pseudomonas running away

20:26

the making up this elaborate plan would help her

20:28

feel better

20:29

the situation once they'd gone

20:31

through with

20:32

we couldn't tony one the truck

20:34

cooler that they would go to jail if she did

20:37

once you usually was missing he

20:39

told her aunt lazily everything

20:42

the truth about the letters the

20:44

truth about the say call in

20:47

it finally dawned on angeles that

20:49

something was terribly wrong she told

20:51

crimewatch daily i thought

20:53

he sent her away because he

20:55

threatened us so often saying

20:58

that he had police's for

21:00

girls like us places

21:02

like a strict military school angela

21:04

yeah it's a kind of dawned on me that

21:07

he might have done something really bad we

21:10

also now regrets going along

21:12

with shocked she told oklahoma

21:14

news for it has brought so

21:16

much sadness to me on a daily

21:19

basis in guilt for participating

21:21

in the coverups even though i was a kid

21:24

then i didn't the more

21:26

of their worst suspicions by

21:29

leslie and i'm sure other people the

21:31

involved may have been suspicious as well

21:34

but then when all of this comes out

21:37

obviously it makes those suspicions

21:40

pretty well founded but i

21:42

want to talk about angeles being

21:44

a child and again we don't know exactly

21:47

how old she was when this went on but

21:49

been coerced into doing something

21:52

why in a dot hi the

21:55

parent step parents kinda

21:57

regret that she

21:59

feals

21:59

now and sell later on still does

22:02

this can be really tops

22:04

yeah i i think a lot of times

22:07

when an adult tells a child we

22:09

have to keep a secret that usually

22:11

not because something good is going on the julie

22:14

a lot of time that something bad we're not talking

22:16

about don't tell your brother about this christmas

22:19

present be bottom or his birthday present something

22:21

we're talking about some kind of big

22:23

secret any adult once the

22:25

child keep quiet the they don't

22:27

get trouble that's that's a whole different issue

22:30

the going based on what angeles' said

22:33

your if chuck said to her the i have

22:35

no reason to doubt for at all but

22:37

if he said to her new we need

22:39

to keep this a secret or were doing it

22:42

because mommy feals by

22:45

and she feel suicidal she

22:47

might hurt herself in as

22:49

a time to put on a kid

22:51

yeah and then to turn around and say okay

22:53

well now we can talk about it because if you do

22:56

we're both going to jail so that's seems

22:58

to hint at something illegal going on

23:00

any time involving a child in something

23:03

illegal where they could wind up being arrested

23:05

and you know something shady has to be go

23:07

we know it what would eventually

23:10

think as a child first

23:12

she thinks okay this a good thing

23:14

i got to do this because i'm

23:16

doing it from a

23:17

the man now i'm scared

23:20

because i'm i'm basically being threatened device

23:23

tell anyone something bad is going to happen

23:26

shocking candace first one eventually

23:28

to be extradited back to oklahoma from

23:30

michigan the judge looked at the complete

23:32

or refused to send her home game for

23:34

safety investigators interviewed

23:36

shocked daniels who admitted to everything

23:38

the angelica clean candice

23:41

finally called the police to for money missing

23:43

they both refused to take a polygraph tests

23:46

regarding loonies disappearance

23:47

they did both pleaded no contest

23:50

to the charges of abuse filed by and leak

23:52

soon after shocking candace

23:54

moved to germany when the military transferred

23:57

shock the sign andrew daniels

23:59

money can and the younger brother

24:01

almost stayed behind

24:02

he tried to run away to live with and leak it

24:05

was ultimately sent back home then

24:07

he moved to germany with the rest of the family where

24:09

they live for decade

24:10

we usually can brian were on a trip

24:13

with candace when mony when missing

24:15

all of their other siblings were

24:18

still back at home andor daniels

24:21

backed up angeles' allegations

24:23

of abuse in the home then he

24:25

remembered today mony going miss

24:28

he believed it was june second nineteen

24:30

ninety two he claimed that mony

24:32

can charge

24:33

argued a lot

24:35

that the truck decided to

24:37

take a spur of the moment fishing

24:39

trips and he was going to take the

24:41

boys with this wasn't

24:43

unusual he had done this before but

24:46

this time he told his sons to say

24:48

goodbye to moaning according

24:50

to andrew through a barely

24:52

cracked bedroom door heroes

24:54

who was younger than andrew remembers

24:56

hugging mony when he said goodbye them

24:59

recall that she apologized

25:01

for staying home during the trip hurley

25:03

recounted for true crime daily that

25:05

mooney told him have a good day

25:08

i'm sorry i'm sick i can't go with

25:10

you andrew though remembers

25:12

peering through the crack of her bedroom door

25:15

and seeing her sitting on the floor

25:17

her legs crossed not moving at

25:19

all

25:20

it was raining when shock charles

25:22

andrew and their to younger twin brothers

25:24

all left for their fishing

25:26

what was odd

25:27

that are fishing pole stay behind the house

25:30

they drove for about two hours

25:31

in stopped at mcdonalds for some food only

25:34

to dry street back home curls

25:36

pulled into the garage and went inside leaving

25:38

the boys in the car loan andrew

25:41

believes it was at least an hour for chocolate

25:43

them inside the house when he did andrew

25:46

quickly headed to the bathroom it had been

25:48

a long drive and headed to the bathroom really

25:50

bad while in the bathroom he felt

25:52

like someone who's in the bathroom with the

25:54

told crimewatch daily i hadn't

25:56

seen more neat the shower was closed

25:59

the things that

25:59

me to believe that she was in that battle

26:02

standard in have time to investigate

26:05

chuck put the boys in his bedroom and lock

26:07

them in told them that he was going out search

26:09

for money he was gone for two days

26:12

when he came back he took one of the twin

26:14

boys and left the house with

26:16

all the he remembered about that ride was truck

26:18

had a large oil barrel in the butt of his truck

26:21

when they went on the drive so take a lot

26:23

of these details are coming from these

26:25

children again various

26:27

ages but when you have younger

26:29

children their memories or not i always

26:31

that solid so these kids

26:33

are recollecting the best they can

26:36

what happened

26:37

during a time when when he quit missing

26:39

the i don't know that a

26:42

lot of people's memories

26:44

are bad grades when you try to

26:46

go back

26:47

the years

26:48

and you know you mentioned shoulder and especially

26:51

but i struck the

26:53

thing back you know about a certain

26:55

time and and i don't know if my memories

26:58

or that grade or vivid or

27:00

you know my recollections are all that

27:02

solid i think that can

27:04

be said of a lot of people

27:07

our minds on great with

27:09

that type of

27:11

the

27:12

the like a video camera that you can

27:14

replay and perfect clarity

27:16

our minds as don't work that way

27:18

i think what's disturbing those

27:20

are all the kids remember some kind of strange

27:23

activity and was out of the norm

27:26

going on around the time she went missing

27:28

in in the scenario with having

27:30

this large oil barrel in the butt of his truck

27:33

that seems really disturbing

27:35

the possible scenarios here

27:37

could be horrible that

27:39

money perhaps die in her

27:42

death was covered up and her body hidden

27:44

obviously as mooney siblings

27:46

got older and began looking

27:49

back on things that they had seen

27:51

or heard with suspicion sick

27:54

cause major a p as we

27:56

came to realize what

27:58

may have happened there's

28:00

a week told crimewatch day i

28:02

believe the trolls daniels killed

28:04

my sister moaning and then i believe

28:07

he put her in an old drum

28:09

then he drove around to where he took her to

28:12

and he buried her talking

28:14

candice have denied these claims

28:17

publicly they were very

28:19

dismissive of the claim stating that

28:22

angelica and andrew both struggle

28:24

with substance abuse and that

28:26

and the league is not mentally stable

28:29

referring to her on crimewatch daily as

28:31

a really messed up young lady so

28:33

obviously more of this is a family

28:36

that is in shambles you guys

28:38

some of the kids if not all

28:40

of them we don't have information on all of them but

28:43

at least some of them are

28:45

under the sampson the

28:48

tracking candice had something to do

28:50

with with money stats and then

28:52

you have shocking can't is coming

28:54

out and bad mouthing

28:57

some of their their kids are step

28:59

kids the guys there

29:01

are vehemently denying any

29:04

of their coins

29:06

we can't forget that they did they

29:08

admit to the the the angelica

29:10

accused them of so they're non squeaky clean

29:13

and i still come back to the fact that no

29:15

need wasn't reported missing for

29:18

a long time and that was only after

29:20

leslie started asking

29:22

questions that these fake

29:25

phone calls and fake letters came

29:27

in and ultimately it

29:29

was found that the stuff was was all fake

29:32

so you have to wonder

29:34

if someone's faking all the stuff

29:36

what's the reason behind

29:37

i think a lot of people

29:39

the side with

29:41

the kids hear that the parents certainly

29:43

look guilty there in a

29:45

lot of people's mind

29:46

they're guilty of something's for sure

29:49

we know that that obviously

29:51

the big one is are they guilty

29:54

of you doing something

29:56

to mooney and or covering

29:58

it up

29:59

when you sign

29:59

in germany was rock in kansas

30:02

moved to florida after their move

30:04

we've dug in the yard where they had lived in

30:07

oklahoma

30:08

they didn't find any evidence that money could been

30:10

buried on the property

30:11

the daniels have never been officially named

30:13

suspects moonies disappearance despite

30:16

the odds being against angelica

30:18

hasn't given up hope on finding out what happened

30:20

or sister he never forgot mooney

30:23

even when she was allowed to talk about he

30:25

told crimewatch daily i have to

30:27

let people know that there was a moonie daniels

30:30

today mannix key seems to be in limbo

30:33

without a body or a witness coming forward

30:35

with more information you may never

30:37

find of the truth about what happened

30:39

then i'll be there are quite a few cases

30:42

like this one may be not with the exact

30:44

same particulars but you

30:46

cases that are technically unsolved

30:49

the where the majority

30:51

of people who look into it

30:54

the

30:55

that so and so you

30:57

know either have a hand in it or know something

31:00

about it they don't look good we

31:02

do have some unsolved cases where please

31:05

have no idea and nobody

31:07

on their radar there's really no details

31:10

suggesting that it's this person or

31:12

that person i think this

31:14

one know you're obviously

31:17

there was a lot of things going on

31:19

in that house that we're not

31:21

good some that turned out to be

31:23

criminal

31:24

them like you said more with the sake

31:27

the corn the ladders

31:29

and not filing

31:31

the missing persons report at

31:34

the very least the just

31:36

did not make shocking sanders look

31:38

good i think you'd have to say that you can't

31:41

say they're guilty you can't say they did

31:43

anything they do they

31:45

don't look good in the story and all there

31:48

not officially suspects in the case but

31:50

i think in a court of public opinion a

31:53

lot of people have already concluded that

31:55

there

31:56

covering something up were no

31:58

more than there are saying here it even

32:01

the the kids seem to agree

32:03

with that so it it's pretty

32:05

compelling what the the key the

32:08

circumstantial case against them but again

32:11

we need more than that it to have anything saw

32:13

that comes out of this unfortunately

32:15

are you mean you can say somebody not an official

32:17

sauce bag but when the police go

32:19

and dig up your yard

32:22

that my say will some

32:25

our second case

32:26

this week the disappearance

32:28

of jesse sharply is considered

32:31

salt that is someone has

32:33

been held accountable but sadly

32:35

jesse has never been so five

32:37

year old jesse shockley and her

32:39

three other siblings were living

32:41

in glendale arizona with their mother

32:44

the reese hunter they had a rough

32:46

in neglectful opry

32:49

even before jesse was born

32:51

in october of two thousand five while

32:53

living in valais whole california

32:56

juries hunter was charged with one

32:58

count of torture and four counts

33:00

of corporal injury to attack the

33:02

charges were due to allegations that

33:04

she had punched her son that was fourteen

33:07

years old and would regularly

33:09

with him was sticks as

33:11

well as claimed that she had whipped

33:13

her younger children with items like about

33:16

and an extension cords

33:19

they were just seven and three years old

33:21

at the time she was arrested

33:23

yuri hunter was pregnant with just

33:25

when the arrest happy

33:28

his father george edward shockley

33:30

was convicted sex offender

33:32

that he was charged with child abuse alongside

33:34

juries hundred that he would also weapon

33:37

beat children the was also charged

33:39

with failure registers sexism the

33:41

reason or gave birth to jesse and

33:43

pleaded no contest the poor corporal

33:45

injured to a child charges in early

33:47

two thousand and six as part of a plea agreement

33:50

that included dropping the charges of torture he

33:53

was sentenced to eight years in prison granted

33:55

parole in two thousand and ten after serving only

33:57

for

33:58

would you reach was released from pre

33:59

the

34:00

the was able to regain custody of children seems

34:03

pretty surprising the men

34:05

the time

34:06

the family who had been raising the for children

34:08

including jesse

34:09

supported the decision

34:11

it seemed to them like she'd been rehabilitated

34:13

in prison

34:14

the more be said is it seem surprising

34:17

you know that she was able to regain

34:19

custody of her children i think too many

34:21

of was what she did or time

34:23

me she did four years but that's what they said

34:26

she was supposed to do you

34:28

say and a person be rehabilitated

34:31

or can they change in turn your life

34:33

around and prisons were absolutely

34:35

it

34:36

that everybody now we know

34:39

i think that's what you hope for when people go

34:41

to prison that they they pay for what

34:43

they've done they learn from it and they

34:45

come out and be productive citizens

34:47

that's the hope i think think

34:50

situations so it

34:52

seems like her family was giving her the benefit

34:54

of the doubt and felt that she was rehabilitated

34:57

on september twenty second two thousand

35:00

yeah see shockley who was in kindergarten

35:02

went to school for the last time there

35:05

was no doctor's note provide jesse

35:07

stayed home after that day with

35:09

her mom's aris explain to

35:11

the school the jesse had both

35:14

ringworm and pinker on

35:16

october eleven two thousand the

35:19

read hunter who was eight months pregnant with

35:21

the cash a check she laughed her

35:23

four children home alone when

35:26

she returned home to their part you

35:28

claimed that she found the front door open

35:31

the three oldest children were still there the

35:33

five year old jesse was gone the

35:35

children had been sweeping up leaves

35:37

on the apartments backpack which

35:40

was there assigned shore wow

35:42

juries was gone but jesse

35:44

enjoying during claimed that

35:46

she searched the apartment complex

35:48

before calling the police around

35:50

five pm

35:52

i go back to coming home and finding

35:54

one of your children missing that's gotta be pretty shocking

35:56

but

35:57

backing up a little bit

35:58

i think a lot of people

35:59

the

36:00

hold up the fact that the reef

36:02

left for young children home by

36:04

themselves and now

36:07

that he comes home and the

36:09

youngest one is missing that certainly doesn't

36:11

look good and

36:13

whatever the reason whether there's you

36:15

the child's wandered out that of the house

36:17

or someone's taker

36:19

i think there's some responsibility there for leaving

36:21

the kids home unattended in there for in the first

36:23

place

36:24

the i think people are always going

36:26

to look at a situation

36:28

like this and say what you sin have done

36:31

in and i think a lot these cases

36:33

we've talked about it at what point

36:35

do you call the police the

36:37

the parents you

36:39

you their own search first

36:42

do you immediately call the police i

36:44

think that's up in the air you know

36:46

as as far as individually

36:48

what each person would do

36:51

i don't think everybody just naturally

36:53

picks up the phone and

36:55

calls the police

36:57

right away yeah i'm having a six

36:59

year old right now i could see him hiding

37:01

or playing a joke army

37:04

and me calling him in the

37:06

him him not answering right away and

37:08

media race in the call the police and on the sneezes

37:10

our my hear that you know i think

37:12

a lot of parents would look

37:15

around the house at least call out maybe your

37:17

outlook in the yard

37:18

but

37:19

just me personally i wouldn't wait too long

37:21

either as soon as i didn't think he was in the house

37:23

or in the yard i'd be calling the police as

37:25

well put pretty early on

37:27

you might make some calls to maybe

37:29

neighbors or family members of the live close

37:31

by or something like that is well but it

37:33

is an interesting topic of discussion

37:36

in these cases your how long

37:38

do people wait an idea

37:41

generally

37:42

you can kind of see that

37:45

obviously it's days or whatever that's

37:48

that's too long something's not right there

37:50

is ours for

37:53

five hours that too long and

37:55

and a lot of people would say yes it is and

37:57

i think it also comes down to the age of the child

37:59

or read

37:59

looking a three or four year old that one or the door

38:02

we talking and thirteen or fourteen year old

38:04

that wasn't there if is you could make the case

38:06

that they're being they ran off with their friends

38:09

there doing whatever but

38:11

a young child three four

38:13

five years old they can't really fend

38:15

for themselves use seem

38:18

like you would be com the police faster in that

38:20

situation kim the department

38:22

and took a report and they stand out asking

38:24

neighbors if he had seen the missing girl

38:27

there was a possible sighting jesse being

38:29

put into a car parked at going down

38:31

forty fifth avenue

38:32

the his apartment was near glenn down for a third

38:35

avenue

38:35

the witness clean the seen a black woman between

38:38

twenty five and thirty five the child

38:40

into black chevy malibu

38:42

the witness stop the child look like jazz

38:44

it didn't remember seeing any sort of struggle the

38:47

witness said that the woman had her hair up in a bomb

38:50

the next day the day after yossi disappear

38:53

child protective services to coffee of

38:55

jesse three older siblings

38:56

three hundred didn't cooperate at all with investigation

39:00

that she wouldn't take a polygraph exam

39:02

getty young siblings did cooperate with

39:04

authorities

39:05

yeah she's older sister who was thirteenth

39:08

admitted that her mom

39:10

had been keeping jesse in a closet

39:12

and not giving her food for weeks before

39:14

she disappeared she described

39:17

how see would sneak jesse water and

39:19

food without her mom noticing

39:21

see in the other siblings all described

39:23

bruises and cause they had seen

39:26

on jesse around that time two

39:28

days before jesse was reported missing you're

39:30

a hunter was spotted buying

39:33

bleach at the store and

39:35

the children remember her deep cleaning

39:37

the apartments and burning a lot

39:39

of in this was because

39:42

as reported in the phoenix new times

39:45

the closet the jesse had been tested

39:48

smelled like deadpool toward

39:50

the end of october one a jesse's cousin

39:53

spoke to the media mahogany

39:55

high tower stated that jesse

39:57

in the other children had been abused

40:00

by juries hunt however

40:02

other family members were vocal about

40:04

their belief that jesse been missing

40:07

had nothing to do with the claims

40:09

of abuse

40:11

on november first two thousand eleven

40:13

three hundred gave birth and her newborn

40:15

baby was taken to the costume child protective

40:17

services the same day

40:19

homicide detectives join the investigation

40:22

into just his disappearance rob

40:24

the month hundred family

40:26

i get his grandmother surely johnson

40:29

continue to claim that the glendale police department

40:31

wasn't looking for jesse truly

40:33

johnson claim of the department had only search

40:36

for two days before giving up and deciding

40:38

the focus on juries hundred

40:40

on november twenty first two thousand and eleven

40:42

the race was arrested on suspicion of felony

40:44

child abuse her father was vocal

40:46

about her innocence the charger bread

40:48

combs of the glendale police announced the

40:51

hunters arrest you to information

40:53

that the are uncovered during their investigation

40:56

three hunter pleaded not guilty the

40:58

statements made by her children

41:01

were pretty damning they admitted

41:03

that not only had juri

41:05

severely abused jesse she

41:08

had told the other children to lie about

41:10

task like it never happened during

41:13

a search of the home police found

41:15

blood in the primary

41:17

bedroom closet it could not

41:19

be conclusively determined to

41:22

be jesse's because investigators

41:24

did not have her dna after

41:26

just one week juries hunter was

41:28

released from jail with no

41:31

charges being filed this wasn't

41:33

because authorities believe she was innocence

41:35

but because if they didn't present

41:37

a case strong enough to a jury

41:40

then she was acquitted

41:42

they could never charged target

41:43

two days after her release scott

41:45

mason a criminal defense attorney

41:48

and scottsdale arizona was

41:50

hired to represent juri

41:52

the family had secured representations

41:55

believing that she was being targeted unfairly

41:57

by the glendale police depart

42:00

we've combed through a landfill in early december

42:02

two thousand and eleven the twenty first

42:04

two that mon

42:05

authorities announced their theory

42:07

they believe it jesse's body have been taken from

42:09

a trash can summer tempe arizona

42:12

the landfill that nothing was found

42:15

there it was also officially homicide

42:17

investigation

42:18

not just a missing persons case

42:20

the on can't have be is only about twenty five

42:22

to thirty minute drive from trees hundred part

42:25

suggests he was last known to be seems

42:27

too far for jesse do a walk with no sightings

42:29

for the pete doherty series correct

42:32

were was just he put a new car to be transported

42:35

to the landfill

42:36

and when did that happen

42:37

in early february two thousand and twelve

42:40

authorities were still searching for jesse this

42:42

time they were searching a different lands

42:45

butterfield station landfill south

42:47

of phoenix arizona the read hunters

42:50

apartment was even closer to phoenix

42:52

then it was too tempting on june

42:54

twenty seventh after five months

42:57

of search glendale police department

42:59

announced said they hadn't found any

43:01

evidence related to the

43:03

disappearance of jesse shockley in

43:06

search of the butterfield station landfill

43:08

wasn't though jersey had not

43:10

been so her mom juries

43:12

was arrested and charged with first degree

43:15

murder and so only child abuse on

43:17

september six two thousand two yes

43:19

he had been missing for almost a year

43:22

this

43:23

on september seventeen reese

43:25

once again pleaded not guilty

43:27

there was a new witness the stock

43:30

these before jesse was reported miss

43:32

the woman who wish to stay

43:34

anonymous said that she had given

43:37

juri surat to an apartment complex

43:39

in tempe where she had gotten rid

43:41

of was t t our news

43:44

reported to be a large heavy and

43:46

foul smelling suitcase hunter

43:48

had ask for the right claiming she was

43:51

going to sell some shoes instead

43:53

at least according to this woman she seemed

43:56

to have discarded this large suitcase

43:58

this witness statements is reminiscent

44:01

of what we talked about in moonies case earlier

44:04

someone seeing a barrel someone remembering

44:07

a barrel that isn't the pickup truck

44:09

and possibly the painting munich's

44:12

body so i think that's the

44:14

believe here was that perhaps

44:16

jesse was inside of the suitcase

44:19

then again it's coming out

44:22

white up a billion a year after

44:25

it was reported to have occurred

44:27

in march two thousand and thirteen so

44:30

of just his family banded together filed

44:32

a wrongful death lawsuit against the glendale

44:34

police department

44:35

child protective services the state

44:38

of arizona

44:39

ten million dollar lawsuit claimed gross

44:41

negligence it was clear them the

44:43

children should never been placed back in a jury's

44:45

hundred costa

44:46

after she was released from prison

44:49

according to family

44:50

neither the glendale police nor the cps

44:53

took reports of juries hundreds abuse of

44:55

her children seriously

44:57

truly johnson just whose grandmother

44:59

also petition for custody of jesse

45:01

siblings

45:02

this to me more seems to be a pretty

45:04

big change in of the family was initially

45:08

new behind juries

45:10

after she got out of prison saying that

45:12

they supported her denier kids back

45:15

surely johnson was backing her

45:18

the now it seems as though

45:21

this point in the story not

45:23

so much in april two thousand

45:25

and fifteen juries hunters trial

45:27

began prosecutors new they

45:30

had in october we just

45:32

in case being a nobody

45:36

the read continued to maintain her

45:38

and

45:39

and also put forth the idea that

45:41

jesse had not been murder she was out

45:43

there somewhere still alive she

45:46

believed the jesse had wandered out the

45:48

front door of the apart while she

45:50

was out caching her checks he

45:52

also stated that she felt the jesse

45:54

was that little girl that a witness

45:56

reported seeing being put

45:58

into a car just blocks away

46:01

from her apart arizona

46:03

several news reported that jesse's

46:05

kindergarten teacher deborah

46:07

have defied that she saw no

46:10

outward signs of abuse still

46:13

a jury found juries hunter guilty and

46:15

she was send some life in prison no

46:18

possibility of parole where

46:20

the murder of her daughter jesse

46:22

and she was given an additional twenty

46:24

years for child abuse some

46:27

people fell the justice was done

46:29

the others not so much other started

46:32

or wouldn't be you true

46:34

justice until jesse's remains

46:36

were found and she was laid to rest now

46:39

morph we don't have don't have of information about

46:42

the trial what evidence they had

46:45

no you can often be very tough the

46:47

get a conviction in

46:50

a murder case that

46:52

about no years ago it

46:54

was thought to be virtually impossible

46:56

more recently

46:58

the seen

46:59

cases

47:00

where people have been convicted were there have been

47:02

nobody the while we don't

47:04

know all of the evidence that

47:06

was introduced and we can't really go into

47:08

depth about the trial obviously

47:11

the jury heard enough

47:13

to find the reese

47:16

hunter guilty the not just

47:18

of the child abuse but up the murder

47:20

then you have to wonder if that

47:22

or history her

47:24

what he had done in the past that played a role

47:26

in that sort of you know cemented

47:29

in there and the jury's mindset how

47:31

realistic is it that this little girl wonder

47:33

of the door when you have this history of

47:36

violence against her children you have

47:39

the other children saying that she

47:41

told us to lie you have this

47:43

other witnesses said she dropped the spell smelling

47:46

a suitcase off someplace with

47:49

which many believe that contains yes he's body

47:51

so i think as a whole maybe that stuff

47:54

just sort of all found a place for this juri

47:56

and they follows is too much to overlook

47:58

in that she was actually

47:59

loki despite there being nobody

48:02

yeah me obviously doesn't look good you

48:04

know these cases are always tough

48:07

for me because where's

48:09

that proof you know i get

48:11

it there's a lot of say that that

48:13

really make her look bad

48:16

there's really nothing since loose

48:19

and those are always a struggle and i'm sure

48:21

those are very tough for ager i

48:23

have to believe that new

48:25

the the things told by the shoulder

48:28

had to have been pretty powerful but

48:31

the circumstances are similar boat mooney

48:33

daniels and jesse shock these cases

48:35

the disappearance was siblings remember

48:37

suspicious circumstances

48:39

but nobody found

48:41

there are similarities there are key

48:43

differences between the cases the

48:45

fact that no one has been held accountable for movie

48:47

daniels disappearance another differences

48:49

that jesse's investigation had the benefit

48:51

of starting almost immediately remote

48:54

nice family had only pretended to report

48:56

her missing for over a year before she actually

48:58

was reported missing

48:59

then we talked about it more but to me it was

49:01

very telling that more needs parents

49:03

filed a missing persons report immediately

49:07

when her sister angela a grain were the

49:09

writing for a lot of people

49:11

that's incredibly suspicion they

49:14

look at it as though it

49:16

makes it pretty clear that mooney was

49:18

never really missing so there was no concern for

49:20

her the way there was when angelica

49:23

left home the daniels didn't

49:25

have any records for child

49:27

abuse or or anything like that whereas

49:30

read hunter had a history of violence

49:32

against her children so perhaps

49:34

police were quicker to suspect

49:36

her then police were off

49:38

suspecting moon nice family in

49:40

her disappear

49:42

another possibility that the passage of time

49:44

and advances in technology

49:46

could account for the differences in the outcome of these

49:48

two cases could law enforcement and

49:50

prosecution standards had just come

49:52

far enough between nineteen ninety two and money

49:54

went missing in two thousand and eleven when

49:57

jesse vanish

49:58

we mentioned that nobody cases are hard

49:59

for prosecutors

50:01

what would the two cases being almost twenty years

50:03

apart the years may have had

50:05

a lot more to rely on as far as phone

50:07

records social media surveillance

50:10

cameras

50:11

the like

50:12

now we don't know how much that was relied on

50:14

jesse's case the certainly

50:16

would have been a lot more those tools available to

50:18

help make a case against someone then

50:20

there would have been available back on will need vanished

50:22

two decades earlier

50:23

again a similar these cases are there

50:26

are differences the daniels were

50:28

never named as suspects let alone

50:30

arrested in monex case unlike

50:32

juries hunters who was breasted

50:34

pretty early on in connection with

50:36

just his case even with blood

50:39

found in the closet and her partner

50:41

eerie hunter was released from jail because

50:44

the case was just not strong enough because

50:46

money with thought the as a

50:48

runaway for so long the last

50:50

place she was seen wasn't search

50:53

they could they have found blood could they have

50:55

found other evidence in the home if

50:58

they were alerted to mony being

51:00

missing a media investigators

51:02

and more oklahoma within eighteen

51:05

month delay in the report of

51:07

moaning disappearance never really

51:09

got or took the chance to serves

51:12

the home like they did in

51:14

wind also there was a witness

51:16

claiming that they had seen moaning get

51:19

into a truck with a man and leave willingly

51:21

but there was a witness and jesse's

51:24

disappearance to claiming that they saw

51:26

her been placed into a car with

51:28

no strike in both cases it's

51:30

unknown at the girls seen by witnesses

51:33

getting into vehicles we're

51:35

actually in fact either mony gore jesse

51:38

what is known however is that both of these

51:40

girls have never been found the

51:42

more pay as we wrap up this case

51:44

the other similar me

51:47

between these two cases that

51:49

they're sad an infuriating

51:51

at the same time if sometimes i i

51:53

get really upset are getting mad about

51:57

the details whether you know it's

51:59

the please the not doing a

52:01

knopf the war you know

52:03

it in these cases it

52:05

appears as though near the parents

52:08

that involve men are at least one case

52:11

the suspected of having involvement

52:14

these types of things really upset

52:16

the attic his parents we all want

52:19

to protect our children and that's like

52:21

a basic instinct in here

52:23

we're talking about not some strangers

52:25

that possibly dr these

52:28

girls but someone close

52:30

to home someone that they should have

52:32

been able to count on for protection and support

52:35

and that's who seems to be at

52:37

fault here and that's frustrating

52:39

that neither these girls has

52:41

been found

52:43

i think one important take away in both

52:45

cases

52:46

is that we wouldn't know what

52:48

we know now

52:50

if it hadn't been for the siblings of

52:52

these two missing girls because they help connect

52:55

the dots and provide details that

52:57

perhaps the police would have been able to put together

53:00

if they had ensured that information

53:02

the i think it was crucial in

53:05

in both of these cases now

53:07

it the very beginning of the sub so we talked about

53:09

the summer to me

53:11

case

53:12

being sought

53:13

though though it that can be solved

53:16

after so many years

53:19

yeah i think it just shows that none

53:22

of these cases none of these individuals

53:24

should be given up on the

53:26

large part i don't i don't believe that they are

53:29

there's always something coming out something

53:31

new and news

53:33

we could get more information down the road

53:36

so i hope the authorities don't give up

53:39

on trying to find either

53:41

one of these girls

53:42

epic we all have seen that these cases can

53:44

change on the time and all takes

53:47

is for someone coming for that wouldn't talk

53:49

before or perhaps someone's

53:51

belongs being found there remains

53:54

and then all the sudden that there's answers

53:56

and movement in these cases so hopefully please

53:58

don't give up on

54:00

if you have any information about the

54:02

disappearance of mony christine

54:04

daniels who would be forty six years

54:06

old now you can call the more police departments

54:09

and four zero five seven nine three

54:11

five one five once or the oklahoma

54:14

state bureau of investigation at

54:16

four zero five eight four

54:18

eight six seven to four

54:20

if you have information about jesse shockley

54:23

case you can contact the glendale

54:25

pleased to permanent sixty three nine

54:27

three zero three zero zero

54:29

zero they threw that a funny land

54:31

and for help with research and writing in this episode

54:34

as always if you love the show but haven't done

54:36

so yeah take a minute go out give us rating

54:38

review you don't your friends

54:41

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54:43

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54:45

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54:50

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54:56

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54:58

the more of that is it for our episode

55:01

on mony daniels and

55:03

jesse shakily the will be

55:05

back next thirty nine where a

55:07

brand new episode of criminology

55:09

so until then for my and more

55:11

will talk to you next week

55:13

the korean