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is a true crime podcast that

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disturbing topics. Listener discretion

1:07

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1:10

call 911-800-igating-a-2 United—

1:23

Mike Ferguson Hello, everyone, and

1:25

welcome to episode 311 of

1:41

the Criminology Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. Mike

1:43

Morford And this is Mike Morford. Mike Morford Mr.

1:45

Mike Morford, how are you doing, man? Mike Morford I'm

1:48

doing good. I'm recuperating from our CrimeCon trip,

1:50

which this past weekend had a lot of

1:52

fun. Yeah, it was great,

1:54

but I will say

1:56

that it did take me a few

1:58

days to come back. kind of get

2:01

to feeling back to normal. You know, there was

2:03

a lot of standing and

2:05

a lot of walking, which I

2:07

am not used to. And it's a

2:09

really big hotel too. So you had to walk at

2:12

the extra distance to get wherever you were going, but

2:15

a lot of fun, six, I think there were six or 7,000 people

2:17

they said came. And, uh, we

2:19

got to see a lot of our old friends

2:21

and new friends and a lot of our listeners.

2:23

So it was really cool. Yeah. And

2:25

our meetup on Saturday night was a

2:27

lot of fun as well. And, uh,

2:29

you know, my daughter and my wife

2:32

came with me and,

2:34

um, my daughter had a few drinks

2:36

at the meetup and she's

2:38

a very introverted person, but

2:41

apparently not when she's drinking

2:43

because she was hugging

2:46

fans and just

2:49

being about as extroverted as you can be. It was

2:51

great to see actually, she was a lot of fun.

2:54

Yeah. She, she definitely was having

2:56

a good time and, uh, opening up and, uh, it's

2:59

good to see a lot of people, I think, um,

3:01

had a good time and just relaxed. And,

3:04

you know, I think our last meetup at last

3:06

crime time, there wasn't as good a area to

3:08

hang out and it was crowded. There weren't seats,

3:11

but this time everybody is a little bit more comfortable. So

3:13

I think everyone had a good time. Yeah. And

3:15

you and I and

3:17

Gibby and everyone who came

3:20

with us, you brought your whole family, uh,

3:22

got to go out for dinner. And that

3:25

was kind of really fun because it's something

3:27

we've never done before. Yeah. And,

3:29

uh, you know, it's not every time that we're able

3:31

to bring our families. So I think anytime you can

3:33

get everybody together and go out, it's a, it's

3:36

a good time. And I said something about

3:38

it on true crime all the time,

3:40

but your kids were exceptionally well-behaved. I

3:43

don't know if your wife had a hold of

3:45

them under the table or what, but man, they

3:47

were, they were really well-behaved. Maybe they're like

3:50

that all the time. Which

3:52

I think the secret is a day out at

3:54

the water park, warm down. So by the time

3:56

dinner rolled around, they were, they were

3:59

pretty tired. Yeah, yeah, but they were great.

4:01

All right. Now that we have all

4:03

of that out of the way, let's jump

4:05

into this week's case. You know, we just

4:07

passed Memorial Day here in the United States,

4:09

which is a big holiday for many of

4:12

us. It's the beginning

4:14

of summer, a time to

4:17

think about those who made the ultimate

4:19

sacrifice for our country. It's also a

4:21

time when many people want to get

4:24

away. And for many, these

4:26

getaways include camping trips

4:29

and the Memorial Day holiday kicks off

4:31

camping season for a lot of people.

4:34

Many people will camp throughout the summer

4:36

well into the fall when the

4:38

change of weather means it's time to

4:41

wind down camping season and maybe

4:43

head back to school. It was

4:45

during that tail end of camping season

4:47

in the fall of 2003 that a

4:50

young couple headed out for

4:52

an overnight camping trip. It

4:55

would prove deadly. 19 year

4:57

old Lisa Guerriri

5:00

and 20 year old Brandon Rumbaugh made

5:03

their way to the secluded Bumblebee

5:05

road area in the Yavapai

5:09

County area in Arizona in

5:11

September of that year. They never came

5:13

home. Instead, they were

5:15

both murdered. And to this

5:18

point, who killed them and what

5:20

remains a mystery. Lisa Guerriri

5:22

and Brandon Rumbaugh, who were both from Scottsdale,

5:24

Arizona, had been dating for a year by

5:27

October 2003. At that time, they had

5:30

been living together in Lisa's apartment for about two

5:32

months. Brandon was a personal

5:34

trainer at Fitness Works Gym, and

5:37

Lisa was a secretary at the Salt River

5:39

Project, a utility company in Arizona.

5:41

Brandon was attending Arizona State University and had

5:44

a dream of opening his own gym one

5:46

day. Lisa was a sophomore

5:48

studying business management at Mesa

5:50

Community College. She wanted to be

5:52

a professional wedding planner, and once they

5:54

both graduated, she was set to be planning her

5:57

own wedding. Lisa's mother Paula would

5:59

later tell the Arizona Republic, both

6:01

of them loved each other so, so much. Well,

6:04

Lisa and Brandon knew they wanted to be together for the

6:06

rest of their lives before they got married.

6:09

They wanted to focus on their education and save

6:11

up money. As Lisa and

6:13

Brandon's one year anniversary approached, they

6:15

tried to figure out what to do to celebrate it. A

6:17

trip to Disneyland was what they really had their hearts

6:20

set on, but it was about a six

6:22

hour drive and very expensive. So instead

6:24

they chose an overnight camping trip, just

6:26

the two of them alone to the stars in

6:29

a remote area, about 30 miles north of Phoenix.

6:32

Well, I will say, you know, a trip

6:34

to Disneyland or Disney world is a

6:36

really big thing for many,

6:39

many people. I will also

6:41

say it is extremely expensive.

6:44

We went to Disney world, I don't know,

6:46

two or three years ago. I could

6:48

not believe how much the

6:50

tickets have gone up. That

6:52

whole place is just, who you

6:55

better bring your, uh, wallet

6:57

and every card you got. I

6:59

think it's always been expensive too, but I

7:01

remember when I was their age, my

7:04

wife and I would try and find things to do. We

7:06

didn't have a lot of money. So we would, you know,

7:08

think of things that we could do together that didn't

7:11

cost a lot of money and go out and

7:13

have fun. And I think that's what Lisa and

7:15

Brandon were doing in this situation. For

7:17

the trip, the couple borrowed

7:19

Lisa's mom, Paula's Ford F-150.

7:22

She was hesitant to loan out the

7:25

truck because she knew the vehicle was

7:27

overdue for an oil change, but it

7:29

was just an overnight trip. So

7:31

she didn't worry too much about it

7:33

and let them borrow it. Brandon

7:35

and Lisa didn't bring a 10. Instead,

7:38

they planned to sleep in the bed of

7:40

the pickup truck. Once they got to

7:42

their destination, which was an

7:45

area off I 17 lonely

7:48

and secluded Bumblebee road, about

7:50

60 miles north of

7:52

Scottsdale. This is what they had

7:54

done on their first date to fall

7:56

in a sleep together in each other's

7:58

arms under the. stars. Brandon

8:01

had been to this spot before

8:03

with friends and thought it would

8:05

be perfect for their quick romantic

8:07

trip, which would be Lisa's first

8:09

time camping. October 17th, the

8:12

day they were leaving was a Friday, and

8:14

the couple planned to be back

8:16

the next morning on Saturday around

8:18

9am. They had to return the

8:21

truck to Lisa's mom, and then

8:23

Brandon had training sessions that worked

8:25

that day, so they couldn't stay

8:27

away the entire weekend. Paula

8:29

knew the general area of where Lisa and Brandon were

8:31

heading to, but Lisa had specifically

8:33

asked her mom not to tell Lisa's uncle

8:36

Mike the location until they were back home.

8:39

Mike basically stepped in to fill the father

8:41

role for Lisa in 2002

8:43

after her dad John passed

8:45

away from cancer. Mike had promised his

8:47

brother that he would watch over her, and Lisa

8:49

felt that Mike would make a big deal about

8:51

the camping trip if he knew where

8:54

they were planning to camp at Bumblebee Road. In

8:56

Lisa's mind, the best case scenario was that

8:59

her uncle Mike would try and talk the amount of going

9:01

there, and worst case, he

9:03

would come looking for them there and crash

9:05

their anniversary date. Lisa was right

9:07

about her uncle's concerns. Mike

9:09

later discussed his worries about the choice

9:11

of Bumblebee Road for a camping destination.

9:14

Bumblebee, Arizona is described as a

9:16

ghost town in the Bradshaw Mountains

9:18

of Yavapai County, used

9:20

by campers mostly in the winter. It

9:22

was also common knowledge that some people went there

9:24

to party or to do shady things,

9:27

and many of them were armed with guns. And

9:29

Morv, I think it's very normal

9:32

for a family member to have

9:34

concerns about a trip, especially

9:37

one like this. My youngest

9:39

just got back from a road

9:41

trip with her college friends. Of

9:43

course I was worried. I'm

9:45

always worried. Maybe worried's not

9:48

the right word, but there's

9:50

always something in the back of my mind.

9:52

Just a little

9:54

bit of concern about how things are going to

9:56

go. This here

9:58

seems a little different. to me just

10:01

because of where they're going.

10:03

You think about something described

10:05

as a ghost town. Okay.

10:08

It just kind of screams

10:11

desolate. And then you

10:13

have this thought that, you know,

10:15

maybe there's some shady people there,

10:17

they're partying, they're armed. Okay.

10:20

There would be some concerns. Yeah. I

10:23

think in her uncle Mike's mind, you know,

10:25

there's probably some concern about if they

10:27

ran into some shady people out there,

10:29

but maybe also

10:32

if they got hurt, they were so far away

10:34

from everything. At least in Brandon

10:36

did have a cell phone with them, but I'm

10:38

not sure how good the reception was

10:41

out there. So you can understand why Mike would

10:43

be a little bit concerned about them heading out

10:45

there. And Lisa's mind, the trip

10:48

would be a safe one. They weren't

10:50

going to pull very far off of the

10:52

road. So the chances of them coming

10:54

across someone up to no good should have

10:56

been pretty low. She also

10:58

felt safe knowing that Brandon would protect

11:01

her. He was a tall,

11:03

strapping young man. Along

11:05

with borrowing Paula's truck. They

11:07

borrowed her video camera so they

11:09

could tape their adventure on the

11:12

way to Bumblebee, they stopped at a

11:14

grocery store in Scottsdale and bought

11:16

a disposable camera to further document

11:18

their memories of the trip. If

11:21

they did anything else before

11:23

getting to their chosen campsite, it

11:25

wasn't documented on their drive,

11:28

Paula called Lisa, but they still had

11:30

a ways to drive. This would be

11:32

the last time she or anyone else

11:34

spoke to the couple about

11:37

two miles west of interstate 17, they

11:39

pulled the truck off of Bumblebee road

11:42

into an unpaved turnout area. What

11:45

happened after that is shrouded

11:47

in mystery to this day. The

11:50

next morning, Saturday at 9 AM, the

11:52

time the couple was supposed to be home came

11:54

and went with no word from either Lisa or

11:57

Brandon. Lisa was rarely late. without

12:00

checking in. If she knew plans

12:02

had changed where she was running late, she

12:05

would always call and notify someone. But

12:07

this wasn't often because she was a very

12:09

punctual person. Brandon didn't show up

12:11

to work that day, which was also strange. He

12:13

didn't call him sick, which was highly unlike him,

12:16

especially because Brandon and Elisa had

12:18

specifically planned the trip the way

12:20

they did so he could be back in time for work.

12:22

So why would he just blow it off? It

12:25

didn't make sense. Because of this, both

12:27

of their families and Brandon's friends that worked

12:30

with them immediately were worried about

12:32

them. Paula would later tell

12:34

ABC 15 Arizona, call it

12:36

a mother's instinct. I don't know what

12:38

it was, but I knew there was something wrong. Brandon's

12:40

family thought that maybe they ran off to Las

12:43

Vegas together to a lope instead

12:45

of waiting until they graduated to get

12:47

married. But as more time passed, it

12:49

seemed obvious that this was not the case. And

12:52

more, if we hear about this in

12:54

many cases, right, people have

12:57

a reputation, especially when it

12:59

comes to work, do they show up

13:01

on time? Do they miss a lot

13:03

of work without calling in? And

13:06

most of the time the answer

13:08

to those questions is no. And

13:10

I think what that does is

13:13

it establishes a pattern so

13:15

that when that pattern

13:17

is broken, people become

13:19

worried very, very quickly. That's

13:22

one thing. If this is a couple

13:24

that's always doing

13:26

things on a whim and taking

13:29

off without letting people know, and it's

13:31

not out of the norm, but for both of

13:33

them, this was highly unusual that they would both

13:36

disappear from sight and not

13:38

alert anyone, especially because Brandon

13:40

was coming back to

13:43

work that day. They planned that whole schedule

13:45

around that. So that I think was the most

13:47

worrisome thing. Paula called to

13:49

report Lisa and Brandon missing.

13:52

And meanwhile, an unofficial search

13:54

party began Brandon's father,

13:56

Rob, Lisa's brother, and some

13:58

of Brandon's friends. went looking

14:00

for the couple, but no one knew

14:02

the exact area that they were camping

14:05

at, just that they had gone to

14:07

Bumblebee. Nothing was found. So

14:09

the search continued into Sunday. That

14:11

afternoon, three of their friends who

14:13

had joined the search, finally

14:15

saw the white Ford F-150 parked

14:18

just off the road. One of

14:20

these friends had stayed at this site before

14:22

with Brandon. Everything looked normal

14:24

at first, until they got

14:26

to the bed of the pickup. Lisa

14:29

and Brandon were lying in the back

14:31

dead. They were still inside

14:33

their sleeping bags. Police were

14:35

summoned to the scene and found that

14:37

Lisa and Brandon had both been shot

14:39

multiple times in the head and torso.

14:42

Although for years, they

14:44

refused to release the caliber of

14:46

gun that had been used to kill

14:48

the couple. Commander Tom

14:51

Bolts with the Yavapai

14:53

County Sheriff's Office would

14:55

explain much later to

14:57

ABC 15. There's evidence

14:59

that Lisa probably woke up at

15:01

some point during the attack, but

15:03

we can't say for sure right

15:05

now. The case for the

15:07

camcorder they had borrowed from Paul was still inside

15:09

the truck, but the camera itself was

15:11

gone. Lisa's keys weren't in the

15:13

truck or in her pocket. There was

15:15

some trash around the side of the road, but none of

15:17

it looked as if it was related to the murders. Some

15:20

of it had been there for quite a while. About

15:22

100 feet from the truck, investigators

15:24

found a disposable camera and collected

15:27

it as evidence. It

15:29

was broken probably from impact, suggesting

15:31

it had been thrown and landed where it was

15:33

found. A lot of reports say the

15:36

camera was found broken in half, which

15:38

makes it sound like someone smashed the camera

15:40

or actually snapped it in half to

15:42

destroy the film, but it's more likely that

15:44

it cracked or the two halves popped apart

15:47

when it hit the ground. Despite the

15:49

disposable camera being broken, some

15:51

of the film was salvageable

15:53

and photos were able to be developed.

15:56

The last two photos on the roll were

15:59

of Brandon and and Lisa, they

16:01

were each posing in the corner of the truck

16:03

bed, but everything behind them

16:05

was pitch black. It looked

16:07

like they had each taken a photo of

16:09

each other. Investigators being

16:12

rather tight-lipped may have caused

16:14

some confusion here because many

16:16

people discussing this case have

16:18

spent time wondering whether these

16:21

two photos were the last

16:23

two pictures taken or

16:25

whether other photos on the role came

16:27

after. However, it looks like

16:29

investigators who joined the case much later

16:32

have cleared this up and

16:34

more recent sources, including interviews,

16:36

mentioned that these were the

16:38

last two photos taken on

16:41

that disposable camera. Two other

16:43

photos have been released to the public, but

16:46

only one seems to really be talked about. Both

16:48

photos are only partial frames and are too

16:50

dark to make out much in

16:52

the way of detail, but what looks to be

16:54

a light bulb and what many people think is

16:57

some kind of window can be seen. Police

16:59

released this photo to help ID the location.

17:02

Brandon and Lisa had purchased this disposable

17:04

camera on their way to camp. So

17:06

just exactly how this photo of a light bulb

17:09

and possibly a window came to be on the

17:11

camera is a mystery. It's obviously not

17:13

a photo from the crime scene. Since

17:15

the photos of Lisa and Brandon, the

17:17

last two photos taken on the role seemed

17:19

to show them alive and well. It's not

17:22

clear where these other earlier photos were taken

17:24

or who took them. Is it possible that

17:26

Lisa and Brandon made a stop some place before

17:29

making it to the campground? If

17:31

so, where was it? And did

17:33

they visit someone police have desperately been

17:35

trying to find the location where those photos were

17:37

taken. As far as

17:39

the photos, different articles note that

17:41

the light fixture is inside or

17:43

outside of a building. Some people

17:45

think it's a double exposure and

17:48

that one of the photos is outside and

17:51

shows a door. If you look

17:53

at it upside down. Others think

17:55

it may not be a light fixture

17:57

at all, but a bowl with the

17:59

reflection of the. flash and not

18:01

a light bulb. There is one detail

18:03

that most people agree on. It

18:05

looks like there is a house plant in

18:07

the photo, something with big

18:09

leaves and vine, wherever

18:11

this mysterious plant and lamp are

18:14

located, it could be essential to

18:16

the case, or it could be nothing at all.

18:18

Many wonder if the couple was

18:21

up to something secret and possibly

18:23

dangerous, but there could also be

18:25

a number of innocent explanations for

18:27

the photos. Maybe a stop on

18:29

their trip, a friend's house, a

18:31

neat building they saw and

18:33

wanted to photograph. They could have

18:36

been planning to show friends and family members

18:38

this photo when they were home, but

18:40

they didn't get a chance to. Currently,

18:42

the authorities now seem to believe that

18:45

the photos were taken inside of

18:48

a restaurant in Bumblebee, one

18:50

that has since closed. We

18:52

looked for photos of this now

18:55

defunct restaurant to try and compare

18:57

to the mystery photos on

18:59

the disposable camera. And unfortunately we

19:01

can't find any photos of

19:04

this establishment. You know,

19:06

every great romance story has a

19:08

happily ever after. Two people meet,

19:10

fall in love and end up

19:12

together for the rest of their

19:14

days. Nancy and Dan Brophy were

19:16

one of those couples. Dan was

19:18

a chef who taught at a

19:20

Portland culinary school. Nancy was a

19:22

romance writer who filled her novels

19:24

with sexy fantasies, betrayals and murder.

19:26

When Dan ends up dead, details

19:28

of his murder that could have

19:30

been ripped from the pages of

19:33

Nancy's novels become clues and Nancy

19:35

becomes a main suspect. So this

19:37

isn't a romance story. It starts

19:39

with a happily ever after, but

19:41

it doesn't end with one. Was

19:43

Nancy just researching her next novel

19:45

or was she planning a murder?

19:47

This is a story about what

19:49

happens when the lines blur between

19:51

fiction and reality. Follow happily never

19:53

after. Dan and Nancy on the

19:55

wonder app or wherever you get

19:57

your podcasts, you can binge all

19:59

episodes of. happily never after Dan

20:01

and Nancy early and ad free

20:03

right now by joining Wondery Plus.

20:18

For Dr. Pepper, we brought in Sue from Duluth,

20:20

Minnesota to tell us. Oh yeah, I know a

20:22

thing or two about cold. Oh, that right

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there is the perfect kind of ice cold for Dr.

20:26

Pepper. Mmm, I'd share that with

20:28

my friend Nancy. She likes Dr. Pepper too, you

20:31

know. My coldest... Alright, that'll be all, Sue. Having

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10% off with code PODCAST. Police

21:37

have also come to believe that everything was fine

21:40

when last two photos on the roll the

21:42

ones with Brandon and Lisa in the back of the

21:44

truck, were taken. In these photos, Lisa

21:47

is seen with her legs bent and open in front

21:49

of her. She's fully dressed, wearing

21:51

jeans, a belt, and a black

21:53

camisole. She's smiling and her eyes are

21:55

not looking at the lens, but slightly

21:58

to the side and above the camera. In

22:00

the second photo of Brandon, he's sitting

22:02

in the same spot as Lisa was in her photo.

22:05

His legs are also bent and open in a

22:07

similar fashion. He isn't smiling and his

22:09

arms are crossed at the chest and his

22:11

face doesn't hold much expression. He has

22:13

a straight face and is looking at the camera. All

22:16

of these photos we're talking about can be found online.

22:19

Many people, including Lisa's mom Paula,

22:21

feel like something is off about the photos. She

22:24

told ABC 15, it wasn't

22:26

her smile. It was like she was

22:28

scared and she was smiling. Some people

22:30

who discussed this case online have wondered if

22:32

the killer could have been there when the photos

22:35

were taken and if they could have been

22:37

forcing the couple to pose. Although the

22:39

photo evidence in this case doesn't provide many

22:41

answers, it seems like it may be one

22:43

of the best clues the police have, or

22:45

at least this may be a clue that may lead to other

22:47

clues. And obviously more if

22:49

these photos are discussed a lot,

22:52

because let's face it, there's not

22:55

a lot of evidence in

22:57

this case. So these two

22:59

photos are going to be the subject

23:01

of a lot of speculation. You

23:04

know, are these two people

23:06

in love who are taking a photo

23:09

of each other or

23:12

are they being forced to pose

23:15

by someone who

23:18

ultimately did them harm?

23:20

That's a very scary thought. Yeah, the

23:23

photos to me look a

23:25

little odd. It doesn't look like they're overly

23:27

happy. I mean, maybe they could have been

23:29

tired. Who knows? But I

23:32

can see why Paula thought the

23:35

picture was somewhat odd because they just

23:37

don't look like they're having a real

23:39

good time. But maybe that's

23:41

open interpretation. I think one

23:43

important thing is those earlier photos

23:45

that show what looks like the light bulb

23:47

in the plant, identifying

23:50

where that was because it would

23:52

help lay out their

23:54

movements that night. And where they

23:57

were. And maybe that leads to other witnesses or

23:59

people that talk. to them and

24:01

to this point, nobody's come forward to say, Hey,

24:03

we were with them or we saw them that

24:05

night. And that makes you wonder,

24:08

okay, is there somebody out

24:10

there that hasn't come forward because

24:12

they're involved or they're

24:14

afraid to come forward or we're Brandon and

24:16

Lisa on their own the entire time.

24:18

And maybe they didn't talk to anybody that night, but

24:20

I think it would really help police if, if they

24:22

did talk to someone to have that

24:24

information. There is one thing

24:27

that's nagging me about this

24:29

theory that possibly the

24:32

killer is taking these

24:34

pictures and it's that ultimately

24:36

they would both Brandon

24:40

and Lisa have to end up

24:42

back in their sleeping bag because

24:44

that's where they're found not

24:47

saying that's impossible. It, it just

24:49

seems like it doesn't fit.

24:52

Yeah. Which would mean that if the killer

24:54

force them to take those

24:56

photographs, then maybe they force them

24:58

to get in their sleeping bags as well. But

25:01

I think the problem is there's just no evidence of, of

25:03

what happened. Exactly. One nagging

25:06

question that remains is why was

25:08

the camera broken? The main

25:10

theory is that the killer was documented

25:13

in one of the frames or at

25:15

least thought they were. So they threw

25:17

it in an effort to break it, but

25:20

the camera was found pretty close to the

25:22

truck and easily connected to

25:24

the couple. The killer could have

25:26

gotten rid of the camera in

25:28

many other places, including

25:30

other remote locations in the desert.

25:33

If they were worried about being

25:35

identified instead of leaving the evidence

25:37

so close to the crime scene, it

25:39

doesn't make a lot of sense to have

25:42

left it. This is especially true.

25:44

If the killer took the missing video

25:46

camera from the scene, then

25:48

why not just take the camera as well? There's

25:51

also a theory that perhaps Brandon

25:53

or Lisa knowing something was

25:55

about to happen to them, drew

25:58

the camera away from their. truck,

26:00

maybe thinking they had taken a photo of

26:03

the person who wanted to do them

26:05

harm and they were

26:07

leaving it as a clue for police police

26:10

know the make model and even

26:12

the serial number of the missing

26:14

video camera, but it has never

26:16

turned up to me. I

26:19

think probably to a lot of people, it does

26:21

seem strange that if the killer through

26:23

that camera down, why not just

26:25

take it with them when they left? It

26:27

seems that they took the other camera and took the

26:30

keys to the truck. So why not

26:32

just take this camera as well? If they thought

26:34

their picture was on it. So that's just one

26:36

odd clue from the case. Yeah.

26:39

I mean, you know, everybody has

26:41

seen a disposable camera. Well, I

26:43

shouldn't say everybody because they're not

26:46

as ubiquitous as they

26:48

used to be, but they're not

26:50

heavy. They don't take up a lot of room.

26:53

This would be something very easy

26:55

to stick in a pocket. And

26:58

then like we said, you could dispose

27:00

of it in so many

27:03

different places, or you could take it back

27:05

home with you and really

27:08

ensure that the entire

27:10

thing is obliterated because that's one

27:12

of the thoughts that I had.

27:15

Okay. You're going to break it in half. Assuming

27:18

that any pictures

27:20

on the camera would be

27:23

destroyed. I think a lot of people

27:25

are smart enough to know that

27:27

that really doesn't ensure that

27:30

no experts could pull

27:33

the film out, salvage it. I

27:36

don't know. It just seems like somebody

27:38

would be taking a huge chance

27:41

if that was their way of

27:43

thinking. News of the

27:45

senseless double murder devastated Lisa and Brandon's

27:48

family and friends, they had gone

27:50

to Bumblebee road to celebrate a year of their

27:52

lives together. Now their families were

27:54

making funeral arrangements. Lisa was

27:56

laid to rest at queen of heaven cemetery

27:58

in Mesa. And a memorial service

28:00

was held for Brandon at Scottsdale Bible

28:03

Church. A scholarship was set up in

28:05

his name by his employer to financially

28:07

assist college students. In November,

28:09

2003, a month after the murders, a $10,000 reward was

28:14

offered for information. This was entirely

28:16

funded by donations that family and friends were

28:18

able to raise at a car wash and

28:20

bake sale. With a lack

28:22

of apparent motive and no real

28:24

evidence at the scene, finding

28:26

any leads to track down was difficult.

28:29

There was no sign of sexual

28:31

assault or robbery other

28:33

than the missing video camera. And

28:36

investigators didn't believe the drugs or

28:38

alcohol had anything to do with

28:40

the murders. Since both victims were

28:42

apparently asleep in their sleeping bags

28:44

when they were shot. It

28:47

seemed that the motive for the murders were

28:49

simply the murders themselves. But

28:52

police didn't know if they had crossed

28:54

paths with a random killer in

28:56

the night, or if Lisa and

28:58

Brandon had been targeted. There was

29:00

a possibility that whoever killed

29:02

Lisa and Brandon knew them and

29:05

were aware of their plans that night and

29:07

where they would be, but only one

29:09

person who fit that bill came to

29:11

mind. Lisa's uncle, Mike

29:13

immediately suspected one of Lisa's

29:15

friends as being involved and

29:18

wanted to question him. Mike felt that

29:20

this friend was fond of Lisa and jealous

29:22

of Brandon. According to an old

29:24

Reddit post, Mike said, I was

29:26

on my way. I was in my truck headed to

29:28

the freeway. I got a phone call saying

29:30

that he wasn't there. The place was

29:32

wiped clean. This unnamed friend that

29:35

Mike suspected had suddenly packed up his

29:37

life and moved to Washington. Police

29:39

later questioned the man and he passed a

29:42

polygraph test. Though investigators today say

29:44

no one has been cleared and

29:46

certainly not due to a polygraph alone. So

29:49

obviously we don't have a ton

29:51

of information on this individual, but

29:55

it seems as though Mike had

29:57

some pretty strong thoughts on

29:59

this guy. I mean, to the

30:01

point more for where he

30:03

got in his truck and was headed to

30:05

his place and it does seem

30:08

strange that, you

30:11

know, after the murders, this

30:13

guy, you know, cleans out

30:15

his apartment or his place and he

30:18

just up in moves

30:20

to Washington. Now that could be

30:23

just a coincidence or

30:25

there could be a more

30:27

sinister motive. Well, we talk about

30:29

all the time how most people

30:31

are killed by someone they know, someone within

30:33

their inner circle, which is why police always

30:36

start looking at people closest to them and

30:38

then work their way out. It's

30:40

not common that people are killed by strangers.

30:43

So I think Mike being suspicious

30:45

of this person thinking maybe

30:47

he has a thing for Lisa

30:49

and his jealous of Brandon, I think

30:52

that's a logical possibility and that's

30:54

why he thought that. So for

30:57

the police to check that out and give

30:59

a polygraph and whatever else they might've done,

31:01

I think it makes total sense that they

31:03

would have looked at him. Authorities

31:05

wanted more information about a

31:07

man spotted having an argument

31:09

in the doorway of Lisa

31:11

and Brandon's apartment at some

31:13

point before the murders. Unfortunately,

31:16

this information is all very vague.

31:19

Early articles don't even clarify

31:21

who was arguing just

31:23

that the man was in an argument with

31:25

another man and only

31:27

specifies that it was in the

31:30

apartment doorway. We can only

31:32

assume that it was in the

31:34

open doorway of Brandon and Lisa's

31:36

apartment and we're left to wonder whether

31:39

there were two unknown men arguing or

31:42

just one unknown man who was

31:44

arguing with Brandon. This man

31:46

was described as tall, husky,

31:48

and white in his

31:51

forties wearing jeans and a white

31:53

t-shirt. According to the

31:55

East Valley Tribune, Susan Quayle,

31:57

a spokeswoman for the Yavapal,

32:00

pie County Sheriff's office said

32:02

that it's possible the argument

32:04

occurred about 10 PM a

32:07

day or more before the murders. And

32:09

again, this is all very vague, but

32:12

you do have to look

32:15

at it. If this person

32:17

was having an argument with Brandon,

32:19

then this is a person that police

32:22

would want to talk to, you know,

32:25

could it be that there

32:27

was some type of real beef there and

32:31

it carried over whether

32:33

this person followed Brandon and

32:35

Lisa or somehow knew where

32:37

they were going to be. He

32:40

went out there and killed both

32:42

of them. And police would definitely

32:44

want to know about any arguments that Brandon

32:46

had, or even if the argument wasn't Brandon,

32:48

even if it was with someone else, maybe

32:51

Brandon might've overheard something

32:53

and been targeted for that reason.

32:56

Maybe he heard something he wasn't supposed to. So I think

32:59

whatever the case, the police

33:01

really wanted to find this guy and they weren't

33:04

able to, unfortunately. Lisa's family is

33:06

open to the idea that she and Brandon

33:08

were specifically targeted by someone who knew them.

33:10

The friend who Mike said wanted Lisa, but

33:13

the person they suspected did not fit the

33:15

description of the man seen arguing in the

33:17

doorway and this friend's name has

33:19

not been publicly released. Steve

33:21

Francis, a spokesman for the

33:23

Yavapai County Sheriff's office told

33:25

the Arizona Republic, do we believe

33:28

that it was a random act and that there's

33:30

a crazy person out there, not

33:32

necessarily. Can we rule it out? Not

33:35

necessarily, but six months after Lisa

33:37

and Brandon were killed, more murders

33:39

had people wondering if there was someone

33:41

out there targeting campers. On

33:44

Monday, May 3rd, 2004,

33:46

us forest service workers found

33:48

the bodies of William Midaw

33:52

and Omer Casey. They had

33:54

been camping together at a national

33:56

forest campground near crown King about

33:58

two hours north of. of Phoenix two

34:01

days later, officers from the Colorado

34:03

Springs police department tried to contact

34:06

21 year old rusty Rankin at

34:08

a super eight motel in Colorado Springs.

34:11

He was a suspect in the double murder

34:13

and crown King and was believed to have

34:16

been camping near midaw and

34:19

Casey officers called him at 7 30 PM using the phone

34:23

in his hotel room to inform him

34:25

that there was a warrant for his

34:28

arrest. It seemed like he

34:30

was going to cooperate. He agreed

34:32

to turn himself in. Instead

34:35

he took his own life with one of the

34:37

four guns that would be recovered in the

34:39

room with his body around 10

34:42

30 PM rusty Rankin may have been

34:44

responsible for

34:46

the murders of William midaw

34:49

and Omer Casey, but it's

34:51

unclear if he could be a

34:53

suspect in the murders of Lisa Guerrero

34:55

and reary and Brandon Rumbaugh.

34:58

There was also a double murder of a man

35:00

and woman not far from Bumblebee that caught

35:02

the attention of some people in 1999, four

35:06

years before Lisa and Brandon's murders, the

35:08

bodies of 20 year old Rebecca Rubel Kava

35:11

and her friend 39 year old William

35:13

Rodriguez were found on the east side of

35:16

highway 93 between the towns of Wickenburg

35:18

and Wiki up about 80

35:21

miles west of Bumblebee. Both of

35:23

them had been shot to death. There's some

35:25

key differences in this double murder. However, Rebecca

35:27

and William were killed elsewhere and dumped where they

35:30

were found. Also Rebecca had a

35:32

history of being sex trafficked and

35:34

in the days before she was killed claimed

35:36

to be fearful after witnessing a murder. Nothing

35:39

really links Rebecca and William's case to

35:41

Lisa and Brandon's other than proximity. But

35:44

when you start digging in the cases that are very

35:46

similar, that being two victims at

35:48

a campsite killed at that campsite.

35:51

It's shocking how many cases there are, even

35:53

if not close in proximity. One

35:56

case that is strikingly similar is that of

35:58

22 year old. Lindsay

36:00

Kutchall and 26 year

36:03

old Jason Allen who were engaged

36:05

to be married. When they decided

36:07

to spend their last summer weekend

36:10

in California sightseeing near San Francisco.

36:12

It was supposed to be a quick trip. They

36:15

headed down the coast on Friday and

36:17

were expected back in Coloma

36:20

north of Sacramento on Sunday. The

36:23

two counselors had work on Monday so

36:25

they couldn't extend their trip. Lindsay

36:27

called her parents back home in Ohio every

36:30

Sunday while she was in California but

36:33

not on Sunday August 15, 2004. Her

36:36

family and the couple's coworkers began

36:39

to worry. On Tuesday

36:41

Lindsay's mother flew to California

36:44

to report the two missing. The

36:46

next day a park ranger at Fish

36:48

Head Beach in Jenner, California about

36:51

80 miles north of San Francisco ran

36:53

the license plate of a car that had been

36:55

abandoned at a cliff top overlook. It

36:57

was registered to Lindsay Kutchall and

37:00

thankfully there was a missing persons report already out

37:02

on her. The ranger made his way

37:04

down the embankment to the beach and

37:06

saw two sleeping bags in the sand. Lindsay

37:09

and Jason had each been shot once in the head

37:11

while they were asleep. It was not

37:13

a robbery. Two backpacks belonging to

37:15

the couple were next to them with

37:17

all their belongings inside and their

37:19

car hadn't been stolen and there was

37:21

no sign of sexual assault. A disposable

37:23

camera was also found at the scene but

37:26

it only had the photos you would expect, nature

37:28

and beach scenes from their drive down the

37:30

coast and snapshots of them smiling

37:33

in front of the Golden Gate Bridge. A

37:35

woman contacted authorities just three days

37:38

after the bodies of Lindsay Kutchall

37:40

and Jason Allen were found suggesting

37:43

that her boyfriend, Sean

37:46

Gallon, was responsible. Others

37:49

were familiar with his name. As

37:51

a local nuisance with a history

37:53

of substance abuse, he was

37:56

interviewed but claimed no knowledge

37:58

of or involvement in. Then the

38:00

crime, guns, a bulletproof

38:02

vest and a spear were

38:05

found during a search of his home

38:07

but no evidence linking him to the

38:09

murders was recovered. The case went

38:11

cold and remained unsolved for almost

38:13

13 years. Over

38:15

the years, some online sleuths

38:18

noted the similarities between the

38:20

Cutshaw Allen murders and

38:22

Lisa and Brandon's. Despite the 800

38:25

miles separating the cases, people

38:27

wondered if the same killer might

38:29

be responsible. On

38:32

March 24th, 2017, the Sonoma

38:35

County Sheriff's Office responded to a report

38:37

of shots fired. 36-year-old

38:39

Seamus Gallon had been shot and killed by

38:41

his brother, Sean. While in custody for

38:44

this murder, Sean was questioned again

38:46

about Lindsay Cutshaw and Jason Allen. He

38:48

still maintained his innocence but failed

38:51

a polygraph and eventually confessed to

38:53

the murders. He was able to

38:55

prove his involvement in the murder, admitting that

38:57

he had retrieved the shell casings from the sand,

39:00

put them in an old soda can and

39:02

hid the can in a bush on his father's property.

39:05

Investigators found the can with the shell casings still

39:07

inside and were able to confirm they were

39:09

from the same weapon that killed Lindsay and

39:12

Jason. In the end, the

39:14

Cutshaw Allen murders had nothing to do

39:16

with the murders of Lisa Guerri and

39:18

Brandon Rumbaugh. And there's a

39:20

couple of things here more to talk about. One

39:23

is that it's very natural

39:26

for people online, online

39:28

sleuths, if you want to use

39:31

that term, to try to

39:33

put cases together. We see

39:35

that all the time because let's

39:38

face it, in many of these cases, speculation

39:41

is all there really is.

39:45

But 800 miles away,

39:47

that's a little tough. Not to say

39:49

that it couldn't happen. Actually

39:52

being killed and actually

39:54

being shot inside the

39:57

sleeping bags is so

39:59

very similar. But 800 miles is, is quite a distance. And

40:04

then obviously later on,

40:07

Sean Gallon admits

40:09

to the murders. What

40:11

I thought was fascinating

40:14

was that, you know, this

40:16

guy knew enough to pick

40:19

up his shell casings,

40:22

but then, you know, doesn't dispose

40:24

of them in a way where

40:27

they could never be

40:29

found or, you know, come

40:31

back to Lincoln. He

40:33

puts them in a can and hides

40:36

them on his father's

40:38

property. Is that because he

40:40

wanted to save them as trophies? I

40:43

don't know, but you are really taking

40:46

a chance if you're a killer by

40:48

keeping that kind of very

40:51

damning evidence. I

40:54

can see why some people thought this

40:56

case could be connected to Brandon

40:59

and Lisa's because the similarities

41:01

were there. You know, they also weren't

41:03

robbed. There was a disposable camera

41:05

found. So as

41:08

you mentioned, only natural for some people to connect

41:10

the dots and say, Oh, this could be the

41:12

same killer. What's, what is interesting

41:14

is that it turns out that this

41:17

was a stranger killing and where

41:19

most people aren't killed by strangers, this

41:22

guy had no connection to Lindsay and Jason.

41:24

They were just in the wrong place at the wrong

41:26

time and cross paths with this

41:29

guy. And you have

41:31

to wonder, did the same thing

41:33

happen to Lisa and Brandon or

41:35

was it someone they knew that

41:37

stalk them there? Yeah. And I'm sure

41:39

we'll talk about it more, but we've

41:42

yet to, to really delve

41:45

into new kind

41:47

of a stranger scenario, but

41:50

there's no doubt that it's a

41:52

definite possibility in 1972. There

41:55

was a similar crime on

41:57

Vancouver Island. 20 year old.

42:00

and Durant and 19 year

42:02

old leaf Carlson were together in

42:04

their sleeping bag on June 21st

42:09

1972 when they were each shot four times in the

42:11

head with a 22 caliber

42:13

weapon and Had been shot

42:15

a fifth time but that bullet went through

42:18

her hand and into her hip 25

42:21

year old Joseph Henry Burgess

42:23

immediately became a suspect when his

42:25

Canadian health card Was found

42:27

at a campsite near the scene along

42:30

with a bunch of other abandoned

42:32

belongings clothes a

42:35

guitar handwritten Bible

42:37

passages a rifle

42:39

cleaning kit a Bible

42:41

with the name job weeks

42:43

inscribed glasses and a

42:45

photo of Burgess that had been

42:47

torn into pieces were also found

42:50

at the campsite Burgess

42:52

was witnessed cleaning a 22 caliber gun shortly

42:55

after the murders but fled

42:57

before authorities arrived it

43:00

was believed that Burgess strongly

43:02

disapproved of couples having

43:04

premarital sex and Targeted

43:07

them with his violence Despite

43:09

being identified and even placed on

43:11

Interpol's watch list Burgess

43:14

managed to escape and even enter the

43:16

United States his whereabouts for

43:18

the next three decades were unknown But

43:20

by July 16th 2009 He

43:23

was breaking into a cabin in

43:25

the Jimenez Mountains of New Mexico Where

43:27

officers were conducting a stakeout lying

43:30

in wait for the so-called cookie bandit

43:32

who had been burglarizing cabins Stealing

43:35

food guns alcohol

43:37

and survival items for years Burgess

43:40

shot at two officers who were inside the cabin

43:42

killing one of them They both fired

43:45

back and Burgess was also killed

43:47

his fingerprints were a match to the ones found at the

43:49

1972 crime scene in Vancouver

43:52

Island and on the written Bible

43:55

passages Burgess was a

43:57

suspect in the murders of Lindsay

43:59

Cutshaw and Jason Allen, but DNA

44:01

from the scene was not

44:04

a match. He was officially

44:06

posthumously cleared of those murders

44:09

when Gallen confessed. Could he

44:11

have passed through Arizona before settling

44:13

in New Mexico? Is

44:15

it possible he killed Lisa Guerriri

44:19

and Brandon Rumbaugh and Bumblebee? Police

44:22

would need to have DNA

44:24

fingerprint evidence, at least something

44:27

to tie Burgess to these

44:29

murders. It's unknown how

44:31

many unsolved crimes Burgess is linked

44:34

to, but evidence indicates he was

44:36

willing to kill anywhere he went.

44:39

The gun he used to shoot at the

44:41

officers in that cabin was

44:43

registered to David Elly,

44:46

who was reported missing at the time and

44:48

later found dead in the Jimenez mountains.

44:51

There's really no telling how many

44:53

cases, thefts and murders he

44:56

may be responsible for, and

44:58

the waters might be muddy if

45:00

he was traveling and using stolen

45:02

weapons over the years. Online

45:05

sluice scoured cases with similarities

45:07

to the murders of Lisa

45:10

Guerriri and Brandon Rumbaugh. And

45:12

while there were plenty of

45:15

interesting cases with similarities, there

45:17

was never any clear evidence linking

45:20

any to Brandon's and

45:22

Lisa's murders. In

45:24

2021, Lisa and Brandon's

45:26

murders were looked at again with fresh eyes

45:29

and those who were still available were

45:31

being re-interviewed again by investigators with

45:33

a fresh perspective on the case. Even

45:36

though they had already been asked about the case,

45:38

investigators were hoping that something had been missed.

45:41

An important detail had been remembered, or

45:44

even that someone wanted to clear their conscience after

45:46

all these years of keeping a secret.

45:48

Deborah West, a volunteer cold case

45:51

investigator with the Avopai County

45:53

Sheriff's Office told ABC 15, maybe

45:56

they remember something now. Maybe they

45:58

felt like they couldn't talk back at that time. time that

46:01

same year, Lisa's mom, Paula

46:03

was hoping to move back to Arizona

46:05

from Washington where she moved after

46:07

Lisa's murder and more. If when

46:09

you think about it, you know, it's staggering

46:12

how many cold cases. There

46:14

are, and every year I

46:16

think that number gets added to

46:19

now, obviously some gets solved and

46:21

taken off the books, but it's

46:24

always a good idea to revisit

46:26

these cases. You know,

46:28

maybe someone with a

46:30

fresh set of eyes comes in re-interviewing

46:34

people. And like you said, maybe

46:37

something was missed, but to

46:39

me more importantly, maybe

46:42

somebody who knew something

46:44

back then is now ready

46:46

to get that off their chest,

46:49

maybe they feel like they can, or

46:52

maybe they just feel like it's time. And

46:54

it could be something as simple as perhaps

46:57

the investigator back at the

46:59

time didn't ask the right

47:01

questions or rubbed the

47:03

witnesses the wrong way. And the new

47:06

detectives taking a fresh look at

47:08

it or asking things in a

47:10

different way. Maybe they, the people

47:12

are talking to open up a little more to

47:14

them. So I think it's worth taking a chance

47:16

to see if you can gleam any new information

47:18

that might move the case along. Yeah. Well,

47:20

we talk about it all the time. And you can't

47:23

give up on these cases. I know

47:25

there's only so many resources

47:27

to go around, both

47:29

in terms of how

47:31

many people you have

47:33

to dedicate to some of

47:36

these cold cases, but

47:38

also money to test

47:40

items and things like that.

47:43

Investigators have released new information,

47:46

finally revealing that the weapon used

47:48

to kill Lisa and Brandon was

47:50

a 25 caliber handgun.

47:53

Although it's not clear what make

47:55

and model was used the 25 caliber

47:57

in general is.

48:00

somewhat rare other than the

48:02

new public information. There still

48:04

wasn't much movement on the case.

48:07

You know, and, and speaking on the

48:10

25, it is pretty

48:12

rare today. You don't see

48:14

a lot of handguns.

48:17

In fact, I don't really see

48:19

any new 25 caliber handguns

48:21

being made. Maybe there are, and

48:23

I just don't see them. I

48:25

think it was a caliber that

48:28

was, you know, more

48:30

popular in the past, but has

48:32

really gone by the

48:34

wayside today. So what does that

48:36

mean? That it's an

48:38

older gun. It can

48:40

mean a lot of different things. Yeah. Maybe

48:43

someone out there remembers a

48:45

friend, a coworker, somebody that

48:47

owned that kind of gun, maybe got rid of it soon

48:50

after the murders, or maybe

48:52

still has that gun

48:54

and was in that area or maybe talked about

48:56

the murders. You never know how

48:58

releasing the clue that it's a 25 caliber

49:00

gun that was used. How that

49:03

will affect the case and maybe spur someone

49:05

to come forward with that little

49:07

tidbit of information that helps solve it. Yeah.

49:10

I will say it's a much

49:12

better piece of information than if

49:15

they were to come out and

49:17

say, this was a nine

49:19

millimeter. There's a much better

49:21

chance that somebody is going to

49:23

remember someone having

49:25

or owning a 25

49:28

caliber handgun than

49:30

a nine millimeter, which is obviously

49:33

much more ubiquitous. There still may

49:35

be hope to solve this case in 2023, commander Tom

49:40

bolts with the Avopai County Sheriff's

49:42

office told ABC 15 right now,

49:44

we're in the

49:47

phase where we're working with genealogy,

49:49

trying to get some identification from

49:51

some of the DNA that was

49:53

at the scene so that we

49:55

can generate some leads and hopefully

49:57

find out who did this. Of

50:00

the new developments, Lisa's mom

50:02

Paula said to ABC 15, I

50:05

just hope to God they find what happened

50:07

or who did it. Even if

50:09

the person is dead, I want to

50:11

know. When Paula asked for Lisa's

50:14

personal belongings back, she was told

50:16

that she had to wait for the case to be solved or

50:19

for 25 years to pass Paula

50:21

told ABC 15. It was

50:23

hard. I lost my daughter and I

50:25

lost my best friend at the same time. She

50:27

didn't protest when she couldn't get her daughter's

50:29

items back, thinking it would be a

50:32

short delay while suspect was tracked down. No

50:34

one expected the case to remain unsolved for so

50:36

long. Now we're quickly approaching that

50:38

25 year mark and all

50:40

of Lisa's belongs, including her cell phone

50:43

will be returned to Paula. She hopes

50:45

and really everyone does that she won't

50:47

have to wait that long and the case will be

50:49

solved before then. There is a $10,000 reward

50:53

for any information in this case

50:56

that leads to an arrest, you

50:58

can call Yavapai silent witness at

51:00

1-800-932-3232 and give them

51:06

your tip anonymously, no matter

51:08

how insignificant your information may

51:11

seem. It's still wanted. Sergeant

51:13

Jamie Rothschild told the Arizona

51:15

Republic, what you may perceive

51:17

as a very small puzzle

51:19

piece might work very

51:22

well in the detective's overall

51:24

picture of the investigation. They're

51:26

still waiting for the tip that

51:28

completes the puzzle and leads

51:30

to the identity of the killer who

51:33

snuffed out the lives of two young

51:35

people who were in love and

51:37

had their entire lives together

51:39

stolen. And I do

51:41

believe what you know,

51:44

this Sergeant said is

51:46

absolutely true. My thought

51:48

is that there are

51:50

people who may know

51:52

something about cases and

51:56

they think to themselves, well,

51:59

it seems like. it's such a

52:01

small thing. I don't want to

52:03

take the time or I don't want to

52:05

bother detectives with it,

52:08

but it could be the exact

52:11

thing that detectives need because

52:14

the person with the information

52:16

doesn't know everything that

52:18

the detectives know. So

52:21

I guess what I'm trying to

52:23

say is, you know, I would urge

52:25

people, if you think you

52:28

know anything about a case,

52:30

it doesn't hurt to call

52:33

the police or, you

52:35

know, call one of these tip lines.

52:39

It sounds like the police have stuff

52:41

to go on other than the photos that they were

52:43

working with for a long time. He mentioned DNA

52:46

and doing genealogy. So perhaps the

52:49

killer left something at the scene

52:51

or maybe there were items

52:53

they thought belonged to the killer that they're

52:55

trying to track down through genealogy. So

52:58

just to come out and say that leaves

53:00

open a good possibility

53:02

that this case can be solved. Yeah,

53:04

absolutely. Because, you know,

53:07

really the information that

53:09

we were able to gather around

53:12

the evidence that they had, you

53:15

could tell there wasn't much. But

53:18

when you come out as law enforcement

53:21

and start talking about using

53:24

genealogy or going

53:26

that route, well, then I

53:28

think people start to believe

53:30

that this

53:33

case is much more solvable

53:36

than maybe it once appeared. We've

53:39

all been hearing and we've been

53:41

seeing all these cases solved using

53:44

this new technique. And I

53:46

say new, it's been around for a while now,

53:49

but how many cases have

53:51

you and I personally profiled that

53:53

have been solved using

53:55

genetic genealogy that, you

53:57

know, many people thought,

54:00

were practically unsolvable. And

54:02

hopefully the police do have something to work

54:04

with to, to use that technique

54:07

to its fullest capability. You

54:10

know, we never know what hold back information there

54:12

is. Did the killer leave something

54:14

at the scene, spit out a

54:16

piece of gum, smoke a

54:18

cigarette, who knows, but hopefully police

54:21

are able to use whatever

54:23

was left behind and solve this case one day.

54:25

Yeah. As we wrap this one up again,

54:28

there's not. On the

54:30

surface, a lot to go on. You

54:34

have these pictures, but what

54:36

do they really mean? I think pretty

54:39

difficult to identify maybe

54:41

the location where they were

54:43

taken. And then even if you

54:46

could may have nothing to do

54:48

with the murders at all. I

54:50

think for me, what this case comes

54:52

down to is motive,

54:55

which let's face it. Most

54:58

cases come down to, you know, was

55:00

this someone who knew one or

55:06

both of the victims, you know,

55:08

were they targeted specifically,

55:11

or was this a random

55:13

killer? I think that

55:16

determination is, is really

55:18

important because obviously if

55:20

they're targeted, then you're looking

55:22

for people in their lives, now

55:25

how close they are to

55:27

them that would remain to be

55:29

seen. But at least somebody who knows

55:33

them knows of them, you know,

55:35

does this have to do with

55:37

someone who had a

55:39

fascination with Lisa?

55:42

Yeah, this is going to be a case that I keep a

55:44

close eye on because I'm hoping it

55:46

is solved and I think it's only going

55:48

to lead to more questions. You know,

55:51

sometimes you find out the who,

55:54

but not necessarily the why. And I think

55:56

it's going to be interesting to figure

55:58

all of that out of the cases. Yeah,

56:01

I'm with you. You always want to know

56:03

the who, but you really do

56:05

want to know the why as well. And

56:08

sometimes you don't get that and it leaves

56:10

a real hole, a

56:13

real mystery to the case. So

56:15

even if you find out definitively

56:19

who did it, if you never

56:21

get to that point where you

56:23

know why they did it, well,

56:26

that mystery is still there, but hopefully

56:28

they can figure out both of

56:30

it, who and why. But

56:32

that's it for our case on the Bumblebee

56:35

road murders. If you love the show, but

56:37

haven't done so yet, take a minute, go

56:40

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57:03

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57:05

that's it for another episode of criminology, but

57:08

morph and I will be back with all

57:10

of you next Saturday night with a brand

57:12

new episode. So until then for Mike and

57:15

morph, we'll talk to you next week. Take care

57:17

of everyone. Or

57:19

call 911-800-igating-a-2 United—