0:01

When it comes to weight loss, no

0:03

two people are the same. That's why

0:05

Noom builds personalized plans based on your

0:07

unique psychology and biology. Take Brittany. After

0:10

years of unsustainable diets, Noom helped her

0:12

lose 20 pounds and keep it off.

0:14

I was definitely in a yo-yo cycle

0:17

for years of just losing

0:19

weight, gaining weight, and it was exhausting.

0:21

And Stephanie, she's a former D1 athlete

0:23

who knew she couldn't out-train her diet,

0:25

and she lost 38 pounds. My

0:28

relationship with food before Noom was

0:31

never consistent. And Evan, he can't stand

0:33

salads, but he still lost 50 pounds

0:35

with Noom. I never really was

0:37

a salad guy. That's just not who I

0:39

am. Even through the pickiness, Noom taught me

0:42

that building better habits builds a healthier lifestyle.

0:44

I'm not doing this to get to a number. I'm doing this to feel

0:46

better. Get your personalized plan

0:49

today at noom.com. Real Noom

0:51

users compensated to provide their story. In

0:53

four weeks, a typical Noom user can expect to lose

0:55

one to two pounds per week. Individual results may vary.

1:00

You know, some people enjoy composing their

1:02

own music, chord by chord, and

1:04

others are happiest when they come across that

1:07

one perfect song. Work

1:09

is not a lot different than that. Whether

1:11

you prefer building your own workflow or using

1:13

a pre-made template, with monday.com you and the

1:16

team can work in a way that's comfortable

1:18

for everyone. Tap

1:20

the banner to go to monday.com and build

1:22

your own amazing workflow, or find an awesome

1:25

template. No judgment. Today's

1:31

episode of COJ is heavy

1:33

and incredibly important. This

1:35

actually might be one of the

1:38

most important episodes that we have

1:40

ever done because I believe that

1:42

this discussion breaking down coercive control

1:44

could save lives and maybe

1:46

help change the justice system for the

1:49

better. On today's show,

1:51

we tackle coercive control

1:53

with world-renowned expert Laura

1:55

Richards. You're her brilliant

1:57

podcast crime analyst and her tire.

2:00

work, teaching law enforcement across the

2:02

globe, Laura Richards has turned the

2:05

lights on coercive control and helped

2:07

millions of people like me understand

2:09

the issue and identify the pattern

2:12

of high-risk behaviors associated with it.

2:15

As Laura Richards explains, coercive

2:17

control is much more than

2:19

emotional abuse. It is psychological

2:21

warfare and the consequences are

2:24

too often deadly. Coercive

2:26

control has been a key phrase

2:28

in the Micah Francis, aka Micah

2:30

Miller case, to properly describe the

2:32

level of abuse that Micah and

2:35

her family alleged JP put her

2:37

through. For a reminder, on April

2:39

27th, Micah Francis, a 30-year-old woman

2:41

from Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, was

2:43

found dead with a gunshot wound

2:45

in a state park near Lumberton,

2:48

North Carolina. Her death was ruled

2:50

a suicide by local police a

2:52

week later. However, we have confirmed

2:54

with multiple sources that the FBI

2:56

is investigating Micah's case, including details

2:58

surrounding her death. That investigation, according

3:01

to sources, appears to be heating

3:03

up, which is a really good

3:05

thing. While we still have so

3:07

many questions about Micah's manner of

3:09

death and the quick police investigation

3:11

that followed, our podcasts True Sunlight

3:14

and Cup of Justice have focused

3:16

more on exposing what led to

3:18

her death and who, if anyone,

3:20

could be held responsible. Micah was

3:22

in the process of divorcing her

3:24

husband, Pastor JP Miller, when she was

3:27

found dead, and she left

3:29

an entire paper trail documenting

3:31

their allegedly abusive relationship leading

3:33

up to her death. In

3:35

March 2024 alone, Micah reported

3:37

three separate incidents of JP

3:40

allegedly stalking and harassing her.

3:42

She reported this to the

3:44

court and to the police,

3:46

and nothing was done. In

3:48

fact, in April 2024, she

3:51

reported another tracker on her car believed

3:53

to be put there by her estranged

3:55

husband, JP. Police told her that it

3:58

was a civil issue, and they refused to

4:00

even log it into evidence. The

4:02

laws need to change and Micah's

4:05

family is working on this with

4:07

a recent announcement of Micah's law

4:09

aimed at defining and punishing coercive

4:12

control in South Carolina while educating

4:14

officers on identifying these kind of

4:16

behaviors before it is too late

4:19

for women in Micah's position. Laura

4:21

has dedicated her life's work to

4:23

passing coercive control laws around the

4:26

world, including the first federal law

4:28

in the UK in 2015. On today's episode,

4:32

we dive into everything that you

4:34

need to know about coercive control

4:36

and how our system must change

4:38

to save women out there like

4:40

Micah. And by the way,

4:42

just as we started recording, a leaf

4:44

blower decided to make a special appearance

4:46

and hopefully you can listen through the

4:48

racket. Check the links in the description

4:50

to learn more about Laura Richards and

4:52

the concepts we discuss in this episode.

4:55

Let's get into it. Okay,

5:01

I am here with the Laura Richards,

5:03

and I am a big fan of

5:06

her and she is also I'm proud

5:08

to call her my friend. Laura,

5:11

what we do at the beginning of

5:13

Cup of Justice, as we say, cups

5:15

up. So cups up, Laura. Cups up,

5:17

Mandy. Thanks for joining us today.

5:19

We have a lot to go over as we

5:21

have both been talking and covering a little bit

5:29

the Micah Miller case, which I am

5:31

now referring to as the Micah Francis

5:33

case because she is trying to change

5:36

her name. And I want to respect that

5:38

for her and coercive control, which

5:40

I know is your life work and

5:42

something that is you are, you're

5:44

the leading expert, of course, of control as far as

5:46

I can see. And I've done a lot of research

5:49

on it in the last couple of weeks, especially I

5:51

was at the press conference last week.

5:53

As soon as Micah's attorney

5:55

mentioned coercive control, I

5:57

was just like, Oh my gosh, how.

6:00

But how did I not hear this term

6:02

until I talked to you? I

6:04

hadn't heard of coercive control as

6:06

a term until I think our

6:08

conversation or listening to your podcast,

6:10

I can't remember, but I have

6:12

covered a lot of abuse cases

6:14

in my life. You know,

6:17

I'm in this world and

6:19

I felt a little ignorant and

6:21

behind, but I'm also happy that

6:24

with cases like Micah, this is

6:26

coming to the forefront. Tell me

6:28

where you first learned the term

6:30

coercive control and how you define

6:32

it. Yes, well, I'm

6:34

so glad you're spotlighting coercive control,

6:36

Mandy, with Micah's case. And unfortunately,

6:38

it's too late for Micah and

6:41

many women across the world, because

6:44

we know that coercive control does

6:46

correlate significantly with suicide, with

6:49

homicide and with familicide. And

6:52

when I first started to realize

6:54

that actually there was something much more

6:57

insidious than what we understand when

6:59

we use the term domestic abuse,

7:01

I was reviewing lots of murders

7:03

of women and some suicides as

7:05

well, and murders of children. And

7:08

I was understanding that actually

7:10

often women become entrapped. It's

7:13

not just about a physical act that

7:15

happens, it's about the psychological and the

7:17

emotional entrapment, but also

7:19

wider society that keeps

7:21

her entrapped, the gender

7:24

inequality. And it was when I was

7:26

working at New Scotland Yard that I became aware of it

7:29

from reviewing lots of the murders and realizing

7:31

it was much more like the spider's web

7:33

that kept a woman entrapped and that people

7:35

would say, well, she kept going back, Laura,

7:38

she kept going back to him. And I

7:40

would look at the reasons for why she

7:42

would go back. And I would see that

7:44

on average, it would be about seven times

7:47

that she would love that individual, but

7:49

she wanted the abuse to stop. But

7:52

it was all the other things that

7:54

kept her entrapped, i.e. that

7:56

the abuse got worse when she left and

7:59

that people would tell her. her to go back, that she

8:01

wouldn't have her own financial independence,

8:03

that the children would also

8:06

keep her entrapped. So actually

8:08

I started to realize there was something

8:10

far more insidious at play. And I

8:12

read various books at

8:14

the time and lots of literature

8:16

about it. There were

8:19

various academics writing

8:21

about coercive control, Professor

8:24

Liz Kelly and Professor Evan Stark

8:27

and others. And I started to realize

8:29

that we needed to change the law

8:32

on coercive control specifically after we had

8:34

changed the law on stalking, because

8:36

often people didn't see it as a pattern

8:38

of behavior. So stalking law came first and

8:41

then I felt, well, if we can create

8:43

a stalking law in England and Wales that

8:45

we show that there's a pattern and that

8:48

it's psychological behavior, then

8:50

we can do something more with

8:52

domestic abuse and coercive control. So

8:55

is there a particular case in

8:58

your career that you remember, wow,

9:02

this is a textbook case of coercive

9:04

control, like a light bulb moment, or

9:06

was it just a bunch

9:08

of cases collectively and then you

9:10

were researching coercive control and saying

9:13

this all comes together and this all makes

9:15

sense? There were a number of cases. I

9:17

mean, I still remember the first domestic violence

9:20

murder review that I did of a young

9:22

woman called Christine Boswell and she

9:24

had two children and she kept going back

9:26

to the perpetrator because he kept, I call

9:29

it the war of attrition. He made it

9:31

so miserable for her when

9:33

she left and so unpredictable that

9:35

she ended up going back to

9:37

him because she said in a

9:39

sense it was better to be

9:41

with him and the unpredictability would

9:44

lessen. And therefore

9:46

she felt that she was somehow safer to stay

9:48

with him. And I kept hearing

9:50

that same sort of theme being brought

9:52

up by women that it actually got

9:54

worse when they left. And so

9:57

separation I understood to become, I mean, I understood

9:59

it. for me to, in the

10:01

research and all the cases, that it

10:03

was a high-risk factor. And then, you

10:05

know, seeing this spider's web, asking the

10:07

right questions about how and why, in

10:11

terms of what was going on

10:13

prior to the murder of what

10:15

made her go back, made me

10:17

realize that this coercive and controlling

10:19

behavior, this level of subordination, the

10:22

brainwashing, the grooming, everything that had

10:24

gone into eroding the woman's agency

10:26

and her autonomy and her

10:29

confidence. But it was also wider than

10:31

that. And I kept seeing, actually,

10:33

that the systems were backing up

10:35

the abuser. And that was something

10:37

that is often invisible to people.

10:40

And that's what I mean when I talk

10:42

about the gender inequality. It wasn't just about

10:44

what was going on in the relationship. And

10:46

it was literally case after case after case

10:48

that I saw where the murders were happening.

10:50

And at that time, you

10:52

know, I'd run the sexual offenses section

10:54

at New Scotland Yard. I'd also been

10:57

running the homicide prevention unit. So I

10:59

had, you know, a huge amount of

11:01

cases that we were looking at and

11:03

deconstructing, but it was the micro

11:06

and the macro. And similar with the Murdoch

11:08

case, pretty much every case that I look

11:10

at now, I see the same things going

11:12

on. And that's why I felt that

11:15

really we needed to do much

11:17

more, that we had in legislation

11:19

in England and Wales, the physical

11:21

abuse elements, i.e. if somebody physically

11:23

assaults you, it's an ABH or

11:25

it's a GBH. But when there was

11:28

non-physical things that were happening,

11:30

the thousand cuts that went before that,

11:32

that was invisible in terms of the

11:35

questions that police would ask, but also

11:37

in legislation. And I realized

11:39

we needed to close that gap and

11:41

to modernize legislation to reflect women's experience

11:43

of abuse. So it was really a

11:46

number of things that came together. And

11:48

I had a conversation with Professor Evan Stark,

11:51

and he had actually said to me at

11:53

a meeting, you know what, Laura, you should

11:55

really think about your next campaign criminalizing coercive

11:57

control. And I said, well, actually, Evan. There's

12:00

a group of us from women's groups,

12:03

from the Sarah Charlton Foundation and

12:05

from Paladin, which is where I

12:07

founded Paladin, the National Stalking Advocacy

12:10

Service, that we wanted to

12:12

create a new piece of legislation on

12:14

coercive control. And I said, we've already

12:16

started the wheels in motion. And

12:19

I said, it would be great if you

12:21

would sit on our advisory board. So that

12:23

was the genesis, really, of it really was

12:26

from women's experience and from the murders and

12:28

from talking to survivors and

12:30

to professionals and realizing our laws

12:32

just weren't fit for purpose. Yeah.

12:35

And that's something that I see

12:37

all the time as a journalist.

12:39

And I think it really started

12:41

when I just started looking through

12:43

when I was a reporter at

12:45

the local newspaper, one of

12:47

my random jobs was going to

12:50

the sheriff's office and every week

12:52

looking through the stack of police

12:54

reports, everything that happened on Hilton

12:56

Head Island that week and every

12:58

call to service, basically. And

13:01

I just really started noticing,

13:03

A, there's just way more

13:05

domestic violence situations than anybody

13:08

could ever imagine. And it is

13:10

incredibly tragic. But B, the way

13:12

that the reports were written and

13:14

the way that it was the

13:17

woman's fault at a lot of the time.

13:20

And the man in the a lot of

13:22

the times the police officer was a man,

13:24

I would look that up and then the

13:26

way that he approached it a lot

13:29

of times just seemed wrong and claims

13:32

of harassment and claims of stalking and

13:34

things just were not taken seriously. And

13:37

the amount of times, I

13:40

mean, I have no

13:42

statistics, but they're just probably nine

13:44

times out of 10, they didn't

13:46

end up in charges. It's

13:49

just really upsetting, but it does take a

13:51

while and it takes a lot of work

13:53

to be able to see the whole picture

13:55

of the problem. But

13:57

I applaud you for being able. I

14:00

mean, you were the first, the

14:02

UK was the first to get this law in

14:05

the books, and that must have been an uphill

14:07

battle. Can you explain how hard that was and

14:09

all the things that you had to do? And

14:11

I'm sure you had to start with educating people

14:14

on what it was and why it was important.

14:16

Absolutely. And yes, I'm

14:19

nodding along to everything that you just

14:21

said before, because often, you know, when

14:23

men don't experience this behavior, they find

14:25

it very hard to transport themselves into

14:28

somebody else's shoes. And often it is

14:30

a female experience to be coercively controlled

14:32

and to be entrapped. And the victim

14:35

blame is rife, and it has been

14:37

rife for so long, and it's still

14:39

rife. And we're still trying to

14:41

change that. So the question, you know, that people

14:43

would always say, why doesn't she leave Laura? And

14:46

I'd say, well, often she knows that if she

14:48

leaves, it gets worse. And if we ask the

14:50

question, why does he do what he does, then

14:53

we start to understand the problem of what's

14:55

going on rather than victim blame. So I'm

14:57

still saying that now, Mandy, all these years

15:00

later. And yes, it's an uphill

15:02

battle. All of it is an

15:04

uphill battle because you take Micah's case, and,

15:07

you know, it's like an onion that you start

15:09

to peel and you start to see actually, she

15:12

felt so hopeless and helpless. And

15:15

what she wanted was her freedom and

15:18

her autonomy. And that's invisible to

15:20

people, because for most people, we have that.

15:22

But when you're dependent on somebody else,

15:25

it's very hard to explain all the

15:27

things that keep you entrapped in a

15:29

situation, because it is like a spider's

15:31

web where it glints in the sunlight.

15:34

You only see certain parts to it,

15:36

but you don't see all of it. So

15:38

when we started the campaign, it was a

15:41

challenge to educate

15:43

people about why we needed it. And

15:46

I guess the best way that I could

15:48

describe it was that we know that abuse

15:50

isn't just physical. There's a power

15:52

and control wheel, which many people have seen. And

15:55

I've got a copy here because I'm about to

15:57

train people tomorrow on exactly this. And this is

15:59

from De Lucie. Minnesota. Have you seen

16:01

this before, Mandy, the power and control

16:03

wheel? Mandy The

16:31

power of the wheel is the

16:33

physical and sexual acts. domestic

16:36

abuse is a physical and or sexual

16:38

act but actually those two things only

16:40

tend to be used when the other

16:42

behaviors no longer work. So

16:44

it is like a thousand cuts that

16:47

go before of all the things with

16:49

manipulation. A perpetrator tries

16:51

to manipulate the victim to have

16:53

their needs met, the perpetrator's needs

16:55

met and when those things don't

16:57

work anymore they may use raising

16:59

the hand or physically abusing the

17:01

victim or sexually abusing them or

17:03

threatening to harm a child.

17:05

They use other tactics to keep

17:08

the victim controlled and

17:10

other tactics are things like charm as

17:12

well and love bombing. There's other behaviors

17:14

that now we all talk

17:16

about like gaslighting, right?

17:18

Because we change the law and coercive

17:20

control that's now in the lexicon. People

17:23

talk about that. So what I wanted

17:25

to ensure with this campaign was that

17:27

we made the non-physical abuse just

17:29

as important as the physical abuse

17:32

because actually what victims would tell

17:34

me and I interviewed thousands and

17:36

thousands of victims and survivors some

17:38

who were still trying to make it out, they

17:40

would tell me that the bruises would fade and

17:42

the bones would mend but what

17:44

stayed with them was the psychological terror

17:47

and the mind games and

17:50

everything that happened in terms of the

17:52

psychological and emotional trauma, that's what stayed

17:54

with them. So being

17:56

able to tell people that they're the things

17:59

that matter most. to the victims. Sometimes

18:01

it might be keeping the victim

18:03

up through the night, forcing them

18:05

to urinate or defecate in a

18:07

bucket, not allowing them to use

18:09

a toilet, not allowing them to

18:12

work or not allowing them to

18:14

leave the house to see people,

18:16

regulating their behaviour. These

18:18

were the ways that men were

18:20

behaving towards women and

18:23

people were seeing that as quite

18:25

normal. I mean normal in the sense that,

18:27

well, it goes on behind closed doors and

18:29

sometimes the victims wouldn't talk about the behaviours

18:31

that were happening. But it was those 1000

18:35

cuts, as I call it, that kept

18:37

the victim entrapped, that we wanted the

18:39

law to be modernised to take account

18:42

of. Because we know through women's experiences,

18:44

it's not just

18:46

about the physical abuse and legislation.

18:48

As I always say, the

18:50

criminal courts, the family courts,

18:53

they've been created by men to

18:55

protect men. They haven't been created

18:57

to protect women and children and

18:59

laws haven't been created based on

19:01

women's and children's experience of abuse.

19:04

And that's what I've been trying to change. I

19:07

was nodding very loudly as you

19:09

were saying that last part, that

19:12

the laws are created by men

19:14

for men. And gosh,

19:16

I wish I knew that sooner

19:18

in life. Because once

19:20

you figure that out, kind of everything clicks into

19:22

place, at least it did for me. Like,

19:24

oh, that's why none of this has made any

19:27

sense. And that's why, like in

19:29

South Carolina, a majority of

19:31

our domestic violence laws

19:33

and offences are misdemeanors and

19:36

they're not felonies. You

19:38

basically have to almost kill

19:40

somebody in a domestic

19:43

violence situation and show that physical

19:45

abuse for it to be

19:47

a felony in South Carolina. And who made that?

19:49

Men. And

19:53

it's just extremely frustrated

19:55

when we talk about

19:58

how important it is that we have men in

20:01

positions of power. And once

20:03

you realize that the laws are for men designed

20:06

by men, you

20:08

realize how important it is to get women in

20:10

those positions to look out

20:12

for women in cases like domestic abuse,

20:14

in cases like coercive control. And like

20:16

you said, the psychological

20:19

abuse to a lot of these

20:21

victims is worse than the physical

20:24

abuse, but our laws only take

20:26

the physical abuse seriously, and that

20:28

has got to change. I have

20:30

been really obsessed with

20:33

this trend on social media and there's

20:36

pluses and minuses to social media. I

20:38

completely understand that. But one of the

20:40

biggest pluses to social media is that

20:42

women's voices are being uplifted

20:45

and heard in a way

20:47

that they really haven't before in history because

20:49

men have also controlled media for all of

20:52

time. And this

20:55

TikTok trend of, I think it

20:57

started on TikTok, I'm not sure

20:59

of women saying I would choose

21:01

the bear in the forest versus

21:03

choosing the man. If it

21:05

was a man in a forest or a bear, I'm going

21:07

to choose the bear because if I'm attacked by a bear,

21:10

then people are actually going to believe me. And

21:13

if I'm attacked by a man, they're not

21:15

going to believe me. And also men do

21:17

all this other like what happened

21:19

to Micah's psychological abuse, which is worse.

21:22

And like you said, it's

21:24

the psychological breakdown of a

21:26

partner basically convincing you that

21:28

you deserve this type of

21:30

abuse. And that takes

21:33

a really, really long time to recover from.

21:35

That was my rant. I

21:37

don't even know where I left off

21:39

there. But you have said before that

21:43

while you've been training law enforcement

21:45

officers that domestic violence murders and

21:47

stalking murders are the most preventable

21:49

and predictable of all cases. Why

21:51

do you think that is? Because

21:53

they're patterned, they're patterned crimes. And

21:57

that pattern, it's repetitive. victims

22:00

do tell the police about what's going on. So

22:03

if you're being told what's happening, when

22:05

I was looking at the Met's murders,

22:09

35% of their murders were domestic violence related.

22:11

So I said to them, if we know

22:13

this, we can reverse engineer the murders and

22:15

look at what was going on before

22:18

the murder and analyze that information. And

22:20

that's what I did. I took 56

22:23

domestic violence murders and analyzed them

22:25

backwards, reverse engineered them, looked at

22:28

the reports to police. There

22:30

was a lot of information and intelligence

22:32

about the behavior. And then

22:34

I identified the high risk factors. So

22:37

that's now in a process called the DASH, the

22:39

domestic abuse and stalking and harassment and on a

22:41

base violence risk model. So turning

22:44

it on its head from a very

22:46

reactive response, if you ask proactive questions

22:49

of the victim, you're asking them because

22:51

they know the abuse are the best.

22:53

They're having the relationship with them and

22:55

they're holding a mirror up to the

22:58

perpetrator. And then you can gather that

23:00

information and intelligence and understand what

23:02

high risk factors are present. So for example,

23:04

separation, we know that 76% of victims when

23:06

they leave, when

23:09

there's coercive control, 76%

23:12

of them are murdered because separation is a

23:14

high risk factor. And there's this notion of

23:16

if I can't have you, no one can.

23:19

So separation is a high risk factor marker.

23:21

And if there's children present, we

23:23

have to assess the children too, because they

23:25

might be harmed or they might be used

23:27

as a tool to manipulate the victim. So

23:30

I came up with whilst working at New Scotland

23:32

Yard, 15 high risk

23:34

factors. And now we have clustered

23:36

behaviors that when we see clusters

23:39

happening together, like coercive control, separation

23:41

and stalking, these are three

23:43

high risk factor clusters that

23:46

tend to co-occur. And

23:48

if you've got a victim who's terrified, that's four.

23:50

Well, we know that when a victim is

23:53

terrified, they're going to be killed or harmed.

23:56

What they believe is often

23:58

true. So when I review

24:00

this, viewed the murders, most of the victims said, he's

24:02

going to kill me. That's what they

24:04

told the police and then he did. Well,

24:07

you know, it's a cold consolation really

24:09

to be right about predicting your own

24:11

murder. But I took these behaviours and

24:14

what was said and put it into

24:16

a proactive risk assessment tool to help

24:18

the police get better at

24:21

helping victims and understanding

24:23

dangerous perpetrators. And that's

24:26

why I say that they are predictable because

24:29

we know they follow a similar

24:31

pattern. It's not always the exactly,

24:33

you know, exactly the same blueprint

24:35

pattern. But we know

24:37

most domestic violence murders happen within six

24:39

months of a victim leaving. So we

24:42

can even look at the timeline to

24:44

murder. And as well as that, Mandy,

24:46

we now know from the research and

24:48

analysis that suicides also, we

24:50

understand that when someone

24:52

feels so hopeless and helpless and there's

24:55

coercive control, there's a high correlation rate

24:57

with when a woman takes her own

24:59

life and when children are

25:01

killed as a revenge

25:03

kill to get back at the

25:05

victim. Because often we see in

25:07

cases actually the children may be

25:09

killed to take revenge and to

25:11

punish the primary victim, the mother.

25:14

So that's why it's so important to

25:16

understand these patterns and to ask proactive

25:19

questions. And what we did at New

25:21

Scotland Yard and I worked with a

25:23

brilliant team, Sharon Stratton, I'm in Lecford,

25:25

two police officers who I wrote the

25:28

book with policing domestic violence. We were

25:30

putting this into practice of identifying these

25:32

high risk factors using the Dash Risk

25:34

Model training police officers. And

25:36

for 13 years, we reduced domestic violence

25:39

murders by 58%, which

25:42

was 33 people less

25:44

dead every year through turning

25:47

what was a reactive response, just

25:49

a domestic into a proactive response. You

25:51

must ask these questions and then we

25:53

can risk assess and then we can

25:56

risk manage the perpetrator and safety plan

25:58

with the victim and the children. I

26:02

applaud you. Just

26:05

those numbers alone are unbelievable and

26:07

that is some incredible work, the

26:10

amount of lives that you have

26:12

saved, Laura. Just

26:15

thinking about that and that's just

26:18

amazing and also the staggering numbers

26:20

that you were talking about with the

26:23

how dangerous it is when women leave

26:25

and that's just the

26:28

saddest part of all of this is

26:30

the world's big question is why

26:33

don't they leave unfortunately because they

26:35

don't know. Because people always

26:37

blame women for everything and everybody hates women

26:39

and we'll get

26:41

on that later but they ask

26:44

why don't they leave and

26:48

I mean those statistics look

26:50

at the statistics that is

26:53

dangerous. Did you say 76% of women who

26:58

are in abusive coercive control relationship

27:02

when they leave 76% of them are murdered? That's

27:05

the data that we saw yes and

27:07

it's even higher now there's further research

27:10

that says that coercive control and stalking

27:12

feature in 98% of the

27:14

murders, the domestic violence murders and that's

27:18

why it's so important to

27:20

criminalize coercive control and stalking.

27:23

They're the most dangerous types of

27:25

behaviours and right now they're

27:27

invisible to many people so

27:29

that's why this really is about making

27:31

the invisible visible, this power imbalance which

27:33

is at the heart of the offence.

27:36

That's what you really need

27:38

to make sure in any new offence that's

27:40

created it's very clear that that power imbalance

27:42

should be at the centre of it. Yeah

27:44

I'm just blown away thinking about

27:46

that like if there is a

27:48

76% chance

27:51

that you were going to die every time that

27:53

you got into your car you

27:55

would never get into a car right like that's

27:57

just a huge hugely

27:59

dangerous. and horrific statistic.

28:01

So I don't know

28:04

why the world continues to ask

28:06

why does she, why does

28:08

she not leave because 76% is why.

28:10

That is just absolutely horrible. I'm

28:16

just blown away by that. But

28:18

we're gonna take a quick commercial break and I

28:20

want to talk more about this in a minute.

28:23

I'll be right back. Hey

28:31

it's Hey, it's Kaylee Cuoco for Priceline.

28:34

Ready to go to your happy place for a happy

28:36

price? Well, why didn't you say so? Just download the

28:38

Priceline app right now and save up to 60% on

28:40

hotels. So, whether it's

28:42

Cousin Kevin's Kazoo concert in Kansas City,

28:44

go Kevin! Or Becky's Bachelorette Bash in

28:47

Bermuda. You never have to miss a

28:49

trip ever again. So download the Priceline

28:51

app today. Your savings are waiting. Go

28:54

to your happy place for

28:56

a happy price. Go

28:59

to your happy price, Priceline. Find

29:02

your perfect fit with a custom suit

29:05

from Indochino. From timeless classics to bold

29:07

statements, you can express your style exactly

29:09

how you want. Get 10% off

29:11

any purchase of $3.99

29:13

or more at indochino.com

29:15

with code PODCAST. Laura,

29:19

all of this is

29:21

just really upsetting. Can

29:24

you talk a little bit about what

29:26

specific patterns of behavior that

29:29

you look for when identifying

29:32

these coercive control behaviors? What are

29:34

some things that people need to

29:37

know to identify a coercive

29:39

control? Yes, I

29:41

mean it is really troubling Mandy and I

29:44

am glad that we're having this conversation because

29:46

there will be people listening that relate

29:49

to this and that's why talking about it

29:51

is so important. But it

29:53

can be lots of different types of behaviors.

29:55

You know there might be behaviors where there's

29:57

rules and regulations. down

30:00

and a fear of consequence, i.e. that

30:04

she has to have her battery charged on her

30:06

phone and she has to call in or text

30:08

message or send a picture of where she's at

30:12

to prove that she is where she says

30:14

she's going to be at her

30:16

mother's house or a friend's house. It could

30:18

be clothes, certain clothes being worn, hair has

30:21

to be in a certain way. It

30:23

could be that she has to work two or three

30:26

jobs or it might be that she doesn't have to

30:28

work and won't work at all. She's not a loud

30:30

to work. It could be she's not

30:32

allowed access to the bank account or that

30:36

she has credit cards but he's running up

30:38

the credit cards and getting her into debt

30:42

or it could be anything where she

30:44

may be subordinated or it creates

30:47

a dependency. So,

30:50

you know, one of the cases she wasn't allowed her

30:52

own social media, it had to be joint social media

30:54

so that he could see everything that

30:56

she was posting. It

30:59

might be pseudo caring behaviour or she's had

31:01

a mental breakdown and I'm the one that's

31:03

caretaking for her and in

31:06

almost every case there's isolation so

31:08

the perpetrator will try and ensure

31:10

that the victim is isolated from

31:13

her friends and her family and

31:17

with that it means that they

31:19

can monopolise perception, both perception

31:21

of other people of her but also

31:25

he can talk to her

31:27

in a negative way about her friends

31:29

and family too and drive a wedge

31:31

and that isolation is present

31:34

in most cases. It could be

31:36

threats, you know, if she were

31:38

to be late or if she was found

31:40

talking to why, you know,

31:43

it might be an old boyfriend or a new

31:45

girlfriend or but there are

31:47

these rules and regulations and the

31:49

perpetrator will use threats for

31:52

the things that the victim cares about the most

31:54

or the people that they care about the

31:56

most. So it's

31:58

very idiosyncratic behaviour. it's nuanced

32:00

and tailor-made to the victim. It

32:03

could be that they're not allowed to sleep, or

32:06

they're not allowed to eat certain things, or they

32:08

have to do certain amount of fitness, and

32:11

that's being monitored and managed

32:13

by the perpetrator. It might

32:16

be devaluing. So I

32:18

always listen very carefully as to how a

32:21

perpetrator talks about the victim, if they

32:23

devalue them, if they

32:25

try and make their world small, if

32:28

they discredit them, if they belittle them.

32:31

Or equally, it might be that they are

32:33

putting them on a pedestal, and there's this

32:36

sort of the opposite effect where

32:38

they're saying these grandiose things that

32:40

are almost too good to be

32:42

true, but they're divorced from reality.

32:44

So I look for both

32:47

things. It

32:49

could be, I mean, really it's about

32:51

grooming and brainwashing, so I listen very

32:53

carefully to how the victim talks about

32:55

herself. And

32:58

if her world has been shrunk down, and

33:01

if I see a world being shrunk down, rather

33:03

than when two people are in a healthy relationship,

33:05

you want your partner's world to be as

33:08

expansive as possible. You want them

33:10

to enjoy everything in life and

33:12

experience everything in life. That's a

33:14

healthy relationship. So the

33:16

converse is if I see someone

33:18

shrinking down someone's world, then

33:21

I know that there are red flags there.

33:23

So I look for lots of different things,

33:25

because every case is quite different, but

33:29

there's a list there of things that

33:31

you can, certainly like isolation, that will

33:34

be present. And oftentimes the victim, when

33:36

you hear them talk, they will talk

33:39

in the perpetrator's words. So they might say,

33:41

oh yes, well we did move away, but

33:44

that was because it was better for me

33:46

and for my job prospects, and it was

33:48

better for Derek because he wanted a brand

33:51

new start. What she won't

33:53

say is it takes her away from her friends,

33:55

her family, her job, everything that she knows. So

33:58

I have to listen very carefully. to how

34:00

a victim talks about what's going on for

34:03

her, but also how a perpetrator talks. That's

34:06

why the Dash risk model is very

34:08

important to make sense of what's being

34:10

said, but every case is quite different.

34:13

Yeah, and we will absolutely link to that

34:16

for people to look at. I mean, your website is

34:18

just full of really, really helpful

34:20

information and lists to, like you

34:22

said, break these complicated things down

34:25

in a way that people understand

34:27

and can relate to and

34:29

can identify with relationships

34:32

in their life. The other

34:34

thing I'll just add in, Mandy, is I

34:36

always look at the start of the relationship

34:38

too, because often with a coercive controller, you

34:40

have love bombing and you have

34:42

whirlwind. I happened all

34:44

very quickly and the coercive

34:47

controller moved the needle very quickly,

34:49

this whirlwind with love

34:51

bombing techniques of these

34:54

grand statements of, I want to die in

34:56

your arms. I want your face to be

34:59

the last person I see and within a

35:01

week, I want to marry you and have

35:03

children with you. Then

35:05

forcing intimacy, which

35:07

for the victim might feel good because

35:09

we all want to feel special and

35:11

connected, but the perpetrator will

35:14

move it along and will

35:16

create a false impression of who they

35:18

are to match what the victim wants.

35:21

Again, asking very

35:23

specific questions about how someone met

35:25

and the type, how they got

35:27

together and what happened within

35:29

the first six months. I often

35:31

see this whirlwind and love bombing

35:34

strategy, which is a clear

35:36

campaign because perpetrators do pick out

35:38

the victim in a sense of

35:40

not you, not you, not you,

35:43

but you. They test boundaries and

35:45

whether someone's malleable right at

35:47

the start when they first meet the victim.

35:49

Everything is a setup from the start. Yeah.

35:53

And with love bombing, I thought

35:55

about this a lot recently. It's

35:57

really unfortunate. how

36:00

much Hollywood has glamorized love

36:03

bombing for many years to

36:05

the point where I really

36:08

had a screwed up idea

36:11

of what a relationship was supposed to be for

36:13

a very long time in my life. And I

36:15

think a lot of

36:17

other women who grew up with the

36:19

same movies that I did, like The

36:22

Notebook, The Notebook came

36:24

out when I was in middle

36:26

school and it was like the ideal

36:28

love story. Um, of

36:30

my teen years and now I

36:32

look back on it and like

36:35

he's doing a lot of creepy

36:37

and aggressive behaviors really in that.

36:39

And like you said,

36:41

entrapping this woman and making her

36:44

feel in a whirlwind

36:46

isn't supposed it's a,

36:48

the whirlwind romance used to be

36:51

this idea of this

36:53

is what real love is. It

36:55

happens very quickly and he just

36:58

love bombs you and he's obsessed

37:00

with you and that's all great.

37:04

But it's only now that we're talking

37:06

about the dark sides of that and

37:08

how problematic that type of relationship usually

37:11

is. It's usually a

37:13

big red flag when somebody

37:15

dates and then it's a whirlwind and

37:18

they're obsessive. And you've also said something

37:20

that really hit, it

37:23

hit me, um, a lot

37:25

of these men are charming. Um, they

37:27

are not monsters

37:30

all the time. Monsters have two faces

37:32

and, um, I've noticed this pattern

37:35

in the cases that we work on. There's

37:38

a reason why they're able to control

37:40

other people. It's because of the charm, it's because

37:43

of the face that they put on. They

37:45

don't walk outside and say, I'm a monster, I'm

37:48

going to kill all

37:50

these people and ruin lives and

37:52

everything. They put on a smiling

37:54

face and, uh, shake hands and

37:57

hug old ladies and help them across the

37:59

street and... I

44:00

mean, you're still very young at 23

44:02

and she's walking into this stepmother role

44:05

of five children. That's a huge undertaking,

44:08

a huge power imbalance. And

44:10

then it seemed to me that things

44:13

started to unravel in

44:15

that, you know, hearing that she had been

44:18

sectioned in a mental health institution in

44:21

2022. Again,

44:23

I wondered what preceded that.

44:26

And then I heard your episode with

44:29

Charlotte talking about a

44:31

big argument and her leaving him, going

44:33

to stay with her sister, and

44:36

then him sending countless

44:38

messages threatening her. You

44:41

know, and listening to that interview that you did with

44:43

her, and I'm so glad that Charlotte spoke out, you

44:46

got a real sense about how he

44:48

was using Charlotte. He was

44:51

saying that it was for accountability, but it

44:53

was for manipulation, in my opinion, that

44:56

he was using her to gang up against

44:58

Micah, but also to threaten Micah and to

45:00

say he was going to go round

45:03

to the sister's home. He

45:05

had six guns because he got a

45:07

pardon on the offense

45:09

where he ran over a woman

45:12

and he requested that pardon. And

45:14

you covered that in your episodes,

45:16

but that was a huge red

45:18

flag, that action and that behavior.

45:20

And then having six guns and threatening

45:22

to go there armed and ready. I

45:26

mean, I had chills listening to that

45:28

of Charlotte describing what he was saying,

45:31

and the Charlotte was aware

45:33

of it, but he was trying to

45:36

twist the narrative to make himself look like

45:38

the victim. When Micah, it

45:40

seems to me, just wanted time out

45:43

at that particular time in the

45:45

relationship, had gone to her sister's to get

45:47

some perspective and

45:49

headspace and there he was threatening

45:52

her and threatening her

45:54

sister and the six year old boy who

45:56

lived there. Well, that told

45:58

me he was a man who was... unstable,

46:02

unhinged, and potentially

46:04

dangerous. And then when

46:06

she's not giving him the reply that he

46:08

wants, I think he had sent her many

46:10

messages trying to manipulate her into responding and

46:12

she just said, why are you acting so

46:15

crazy? He then says that

46:17

he's going to put all her possessions into

46:20

goodwill by 9am and that

46:23

she has to do the right thing and be

46:25

a godly wife and he's using all these different

46:27

levers. So on the power and control wheel, I

46:29

can see all his tactics trying

46:31

to manipulate and control her and

46:34

then understanding she didn't really have any money

46:38

and she didn't have access to a

46:40

car and then he's putting razorblades. Well,

46:42

she goes into a mental institution after

46:45

that and I wondered how

46:48

much he played a role in that

46:50

and then when she manages to separate

46:52

from him, it escalated again.

46:56

And the razorblades, we know that he

46:58

was stalking her because he admitted it

47:00

to Rich McHugh. So I've continued to

47:03

track the case and everything that I've

47:05

heard just makes me

47:07

feel very concerned about the

47:09

coercive and controlling behaviour of

47:11

devaluing her, demeaning her, isolating

47:14

her from her friends and family and

47:17

telling them not to contact her when she

47:20

was in the hospital. He was

47:22

doing everything that he could to drive

47:26

her into being

47:28

more dependent on him when she came

47:30

out and that for

47:33

me wasn't someone acting in

47:35

her best interest. Everything that he did appears

47:38

in my opinion to be acting in his

47:40

own best interest and he

47:42

stacked the deck in

47:44

favour of himself and against her even

47:47

with the church and I've been led to

47:50

bleed through Charlotte and others

47:52

that I've heard that Michael was very popular

47:54

there and yet he was

47:56

trying to corral everyone against her with

47:59

these allegations. of mental

48:01

health issues, which I still don't know

48:04

if they've been substantiated. And even

48:06

if they were, it would

48:09

be understandable that she felt her

48:11

world was upside down with all

48:13

the gaslighting and how

48:15

hopeless and helpless he made her feel

48:17

when she's trying to separate from him.

48:20

And the ante was upped. As I

48:22

often see, the stalking, he hired

48:24

a private investigator, he

48:27

did everything that he could to wear her down. I

48:29

call it the war of attrition. And

48:32

he was relentless. So

48:34

there were many red flags and I knew

48:36

that the diaries, she had written the diaries

48:38

and the journals, I knew that they would

48:40

play a huge part. And

48:42

the penny dropped for me when I heard

48:45

that he had gone round to her apartment

48:47

and was trying to gain access to her

48:49

apartment after she died. And I wondered, was

48:52

he trying to get her diaries and journals? Because

48:55

we know that he'd already gone through her phone

48:57

when she was in the hospital. And we know

48:59

that there was a half

49:01

naked picture that was uploaded on April

49:03

the 8th, I believe it was, of

49:05

her from, it was from her devices,

49:08

but it was linked to her old Facebook

49:11

account. I'm

49:13

sure that that was probably him

49:15

given the totality of everything that

49:18

has gone on. And that's why, Mandy, I

49:20

always look for the pattern and the totality

49:22

of who else would it be when

49:25

you've got all this drip, drip,

49:27

drip of behavior, the insidious a

49:29

thousand cuts. So for

49:32

me, there were hundreds of red flags that

49:35

point in one direction of

49:37

this man, Pastor JP Miller, just

49:40

making her life so miserable and

49:43

just so awful that

49:46

perhaps that answers why she ended her

49:48

life and why she felt that she

49:50

didn't have any

49:52

hope because he was taking it

49:54

away with every act, even with the divorce

49:56

and with the stalking. The police said, well,

49:59

there was nothing they could do because

50:01

it was a marital car.

50:04

Well, that's absolute nonsense because there's

50:06

no piece of legislation nowadays

50:08

that says you and

50:10

the car are the property of

50:13

the marriage and therefore this law doesn't

50:15

apply. It's about how you apply the

50:17

legislation. But I do

50:20

believe the coercive control law is needed

50:22

too and therefore if it were in

50:24

place, it would have been much clearer

50:26

if those officers were trained. But

50:28

the point I'm making is just how everybody

50:31

backs up the abuser that

50:34

Micah tried to get her

50:36

freedom and it cost her her life.

50:39

Yeah, and I think that's something

50:41

that people try

50:43

to brush off with this case, but

50:45

it's not the point. How

50:49

exactly she died doesn't

50:51

matter a whole lot

50:53

to me. I'm more

50:55

focused on

50:59

what drove her to that

51:01

point where she was and

51:04

what drove her, whether

51:07

or not she did. I mean, there are

51:09

lots of theories. There's lots of a lot

51:12

of TikTok and social media is

51:15

focusing on could he have forced

51:17

her to do it, etc, etc.

51:19

But I'm just like,

51:21

let's look at this pattern of abuse and

51:25

let's expose this man for

51:27

this pattern of alleged abuse

51:30

because I'm afraid if

51:32

all of this alleged abuse is true and like

51:35

you said, I'm looking at the totality of it.

51:37

I don't see how a lot of these things

51:39

couldn't be. I am afraid

51:42

that this is going to happen

51:44

to another woman. He's

51:46

still dating. He is still out

51:49

there. He's

51:51

been seen in pictures with lots of women.

51:53

It's just horrifying. And when I go back

51:55

to something you were saying earlier, the breakdown

51:58

of a person. and

1:04:00

upset. But changing

1:04:02

legislation is one thing. And that's

1:04:05

a huge step. What else do

1:04:07

you believe needs to happen to

1:04:09

save other women's lives who are

1:04:12

in a position like Micah was

1:04:14

in April of this year, finally

1:04:16

divorcing their husband, finally seeing

1:04:19

the light and about to get away,

1:04:22

but also in

1:04:24

that most dangerous period of

1:04:26

their lives? Well, I think changing the law

1:04:29

on coercive control and codifying coercive control, I

1:04:31

want to see it all across America. And

1:04:33

in my view, it should be a federal

1:04:35

offense. The same in Australia. In the

1:04:38

UK, now every part of the UK has

1:04:40

criminalized coercive control. And I want to see

1:04:42

laws, not just family law,

1:04:44

but criminal laws, so that we start to

1:04:47

even things up and we ensure that

1:04:50

the behaviors are visible and that there

1:04:52

is a language and that victims recognize

1:04:54

what's happening to them. So

1:04:56

before any law comes in, Mandy, you

1:04:59

need training. So making sure that all

1:05:01

professionals are trained. But the other

1:05:03

part to that is educating people

1:05:06

via podcasts, media, like Dirty John.

1:05:08

That was the first step of

1:05:10

educating people on coercive control. Dirty

1:05:12

John, the Dirty Truth, the docu,

1:05:14

where we talked about coercive control.

1:05:16

And when I interviewed Chris Goffard,

1:05:18

so I want the moms and the dads

1:05:21

and the brothers and the sisters, the best

1:05:23

friends to be educated because the

1:05:25

victim would talk to them first

1:05:27

before they talk to advocates and

1:05:29

law enforcement. And then the

1:05:31

other part to it that I would love to

1:05:33

see much more of is education around financial freedom.

1:05:37

And I love the work that

1:05:39

Tori Dunlop's doing on financial feminist

1:05:41

of educating and empowering women. I

1:05:44

think that that's such an important

1:05:46

part that be your own

1:05:48

boss, be your own shero, be your

1:05:50

own rescuer in your own

1:05:52

movie and do these

1:05:54

things for you. And now

1:05:57

we have got more of a challenge going on with

1:05:59

the Hollywood media.