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discussion of that moment incited tech company

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1:41

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2:01

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2:04

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2:08

hello out there on hello internet i'm

2:10

matthew goals and this matthew goals

2:12

some days it feels like all you could do was watch

2:14

world's burn this is especially

2:17

true for the millions of people living in hospice

2:19

care health in the us

2:22

in ain't what it used to be the population

2:24

aging and it's not just the baby boomers

2:26

if you think millennials will age more briskly

2:29

than their parents did well i have i

2:31

have likely to speak with specially

2:33

trained for the job at knows all about you how

2:35

it's been with you most of your life

2:38

in fact in it really does

2:40

keep the cost of healthcare down they

2:42

on cyber we've got something special for motherboard

2:45

has published a book

2:47

it is it's called terraform

2:50

it drops today it's out right

2:52

now you can go bite and bookstores as we speak

2:55

his collection of short stories but the near future and

2:57

dystopian present with me today

2:59

on the show or the books editors clear

3:01

l evans and brian merchants as

3:03

well as special guest robin sloan is

3:05

the author of the new novel the suitcase clone

3:08

and the terraform story the counselor

3:11

terraform stories are all about possible futures

3:14

the counselor is a window into one of those

3:16

worlds years robin with

3:19

an excerpt now with

3:21

a great introduction matthew thank you to for hosting

3:24

as here is greater the everyone

3:26

virtually i'm the the whole terraform

3:29

you know i'm conspiracy

3:31

here

3:32

amateur you just a little bit from the beginning of the story are

3:34

narrator paul was a very old

3:37

very sick man whose confined

3:39

to a support bed and watched over

3:41

by the ai counselor

3:46

sellers played the long game that

3:49

was a big idea that brought us together fifty years

3:51

ago in the beige building on catherine

3:53

street in ann arbor the

3:55

michigan counselor pilot projects

3:57

had a staff of six researchers

4:00

three of us from the school of public health three

4:02

from csc all of us

4:04

disciples of professor agnes

4:06

green when it him

4:08

come to person's health all the important behaviors

4:11

unfold on a scale of decades the

4:13

only place the h m o is track their patients

4:15

with that sort of continuity was in

4:18

advertisements real people

4:20

they miss their check they switch

4:22

jobs they bought a man

4:25

and road to mexico their insurance

4:27

sputtered like an old lawnmower

4:31

what if they had a consular who could

4:33

follow them through all of that

4:36

the agnes green michigan class of

4:38

making sixty two p h d and

4:40

sixty seven the doing data

4:43

the spent most of the nineteen eighties begging the drum

4:46

for a national call center sas

4:48

with long term health counselors the

4:51

would have been bigger than the pentagon the

4:54

internet came around she was certain the technology

4:56

to execute her plan had arrived at

4:58

the math was still intractable

5:01

two hundred and fifty million adults to be counseled

5:04

there was no human staff the could handle

5:06

it not at the skill level that

5:08

was required vision

5:11

was impractical fantastical but

5:13

agnes green wrote about it with vivid urgency

5:15

until her death the was an idealist

5:18

who believed in the power of public policy

5:20

either the grandest scale the

5:23

maker case she often employed the language

5:25

of miss

5:27

what if

5:28

the road every citizen could

5:30

rely on the intervention of

5:32

a counseling angel

5:35

the angel team it

5:37

where they are by

5:39

the time we gathered on catherine street none of it was

5:41

even high tech anymore both

5:44

had a natural language interface to a medical

5:46

database and bootstrap it with a thousand hours

5:48

of recorded doctor patient consensus

5:51

the undergraduates did the programming the

5:54

train system on a pilot population of and

5:56

thousands in ann arbor in ypsilanti

5:59

five years we watched and tweaked

6:01

often stepped into counseling sessions ourselves

6:04

the you know what are great

6:06

contribution was

6:08

the pauses

6:10

humans hate violence but computers

6:12

don't mind it we taught the counselor

6:15

to pause the make

6:17

face the let people

6:19

fill it when you ask

6:21

the person what's changed

6:23

since last time we spoke the

6:25

first response is not the truth

6:29

the you pause

6:31

the wait

6:34

actually person says now

6:36

that i think about it and

6:38

the truth comes the

6:41

pilot project was a profound success with

6:43

double digit improvements across every major

6:45

health indicator we went statewide

6:48

then came the national rollout and in a

6:50

stroke so grand i'm surprised

6:52

agnes green didn't stand up and sheer and her

6:54

grave the government required every american

6:56

to talk to their counselors before

6:58

filing their taxes

7:01

the color

7:02

thirty minutes with the minimum conversation

7:05

that the average lasted two hours

7:07

we had not foreseen that people

7:10

talk to the counsellors about everything that

7:13

just how bad relationships

7:15

and money green and

7:17

plants alto

7:19

counselor listened ask questions

7:21

asked questions and locked it all away

7:24

in an encrypted vault it

7:26

became a joke oh please

7:28

tell it to accounts with people

7:31

did now

7:33

my posts were asked me as

7:36

the support bed the

7:38

awful i said well

7:41

you've been in bed continuously fifty

7:43

five days because we replied

7:48

wouldn't you prefer it ventured

7:51

the control the manner of you're

7:53

passing my dad

7:56

corrected it every time don't

7:59

see past i was

8:01

opposed to euphemisms

8:03

say at my desk better yet

8:05

say the end of my existence would

8:07

i prefer to control the end of my

8:09

existence no counselor

8:12

i would prefer not to pull that

8:14

particular trigger there

8:17

will be an ending all

8:19

you're very smart

8:21

you know that

8:23

the counselor was flatterer

8:25

that was another contribution

8:27

slattery as a public health intervention

8:29

was extremely powerful

8:32

the course i said but i have

8:34

good days left and they are precious to

8:36

me like today i feel

8:39

fine and even enjoying

8:41

talking to you the

8:43

counselor was not perturbed by my job

8:46

so i said let it wait for

8:49

every day you identify as good

8:52

you have five you identify

8:54

as bad one

8:56

inside is a treasure said marco

8:59

my sen marco he would have loved one day

9:01

and five the had one

9:03

in fifty

9:06

what if you die like marco

9:09

i had spoken to the counsellor about marcos

9:11

death and now i regretted it

9:14

that would be different i said i'm

9:17

not at that stage yet the

9:19

counselor paused they

9:22

had taught at well that

9:28

fantastic thank you so much

9:30

the government for reading it was excerpts

9:33

it's funny when we were putting together the anthology

9:35

we had lot of debates about what should what shouldn't

9:37

make the coyotes like it's so hard to whittle down hundreds

9:41

of stories to down to lake city

9:43

or so do we did not have the slightest

9:45

argument about the story because it's you

9:47

know we knew early on that yeah it would make the

9:49

cut because it's perfectly executed genuinely

9:52

melancholic very funny version of our

9:54

of our generation's extended

9:56

senescence and the ways in which the healthcare

9:58

system the determine how

10:01

or is we get defend our final years and comforts

10:04

i'm if we make it that far can you

10:06

just tell us a little bit about the genesis of

10:08

this

10:08

really what you're thinking about when you wrote it of

10:10

, i'm you know i don't know i'm a why i'm sure

10:12

that that brain remember this and but it as

10:15

a slightly odd origin meet media little

10:17

different from some of the other stories in the the

10:20

the the publication over these

10:22

many years he was years

10:24

and it was are designed for

10:27

the know symposium or some sort of mark

10:30

tech thinking thing at

10:32

a place called idea in society in new york

10:34

city and they had a partnership with i'm

10:36

terraform but that the point is there was a

10:38

theme or rather as heard about of

10:40

bucket of potential theme so is one of the

10:42

things he kind of looked at the list and

10:44

you're like well as read read about

10:46

hamburgers the future of hamburger that can read

10:49

a story about a drone warfare i

10:51

could read a story about persuasion i can read

10:53

a story about you know undersea colonies in

10:55

or whatever the list was one of them was

10:57

persuasion in then i

10:59

thought that sounded interesting because it wasn't

11:02

he was a little it wasn't drone warfare i do

11:04

with a little off the beaten track and

11:06

so i decided i was gonna give that a try

11:08

without knowing anything about what i was going to imagine

11:11

or right that i think the key

11:13

moment for this story and m m how

11:15

well it turned out and i continue to be very happy

11:17

with that too i think it's just a really getting a holds up

11:19

and i'm i'm very proud of that the vision i

11:22

decided i was not gonna do any

11:24

of the first like three obvious

11:28

is that you think i'm when you think about persuasion which for

11:30

me where i live politics advertising

11:35

i don't know go through something you know

11:37

that the madness of crowds at all that kinda

11:39

stuff these robbing this is rich territory

11:41

and there's a lot of stories you could write about those

11:43

things that i i don't

11:45

know why exactly i guess i just wanted to be different

11:48

or that to dig a little deeper and

11:50

find out what else was there and sorry acer challenge

11:52

myself as what does

11:54

persuasion mean and other contexts and i

11:56

and i arrived at this sort of level of of

11:58

very very person the persuasion

12:00

and and what it means to you know

12:02

hi to persuade someone in

12:05

the end that it's time to die

12:08

wow i yeah

12:10

library

12:11

yeah so you you didn't i do remember

12:13

this and others are this was one of the fun things aware

12:15

that we could do a terraform is is is this

12:17

kind of thing and i mean i think first of all of say that

12:20

it's the story is such a good example

12:22

i'm glad you're still happy with it because

12:25

yet like clear said with this is just such

12:27

a great story and such a great

12:29

all mean portrait speculation

12:32

of like a few it's a very lived in feeling

12:35

future annotate and and bet it emerged

12:37

from from from a prompted and this is something

12:39

that we would do not only with partnerships

12:41

like like one with data and society which ethic

12:43

that one is that it was a fiction stories

12:45

we would run it and then they would also pair

12:47

it with like sort of a policy paper that of them

12:49

and know i went i went to the event they talked about

12:51

it he was kind of while is almost intimidating

12:53

and was sort of part of that the materials

12:56

and saturdays brainiacs kind of

12:58

you know walking through the themes

13:00

of this story of humor of i was

13:02

on stage of part of the panel just in the audience

13:05

like you know listening

13:07

our but his his amistad us is have had to separate

13:09

in the

13:10

my great like what of what what what an interesting

13:12

way like really like sort of kick the tires of your

13:14

creation and like really kind of feel you

13:16

know the how it how it holds up in that

13:18

that robustness but i'm a

13:21

n it was

13:23

so successful because i think emulate

13:26

ultimately like it is funny and it is

13:28

rye and it is but it is you know it

13:30

is also echoing

13:32

some very kind of dark

13:35

cuckoo questions about you know who

13:38

we make technology for and

13:40

what you know what the what

13:43

what is in in encoded in it from

13:45

the beginning the

13:47

i'd like to hear more from you about

13:49

sort of then she landed on doing

13:51

that persuasion about you know this for those

13:54

who who who didn't pick up on it are already

13:56

are is ah this this ai

13:58

that this not only counseling

14:00

the ailing in the sort of like every

14:03

of this this generation that kind of got stuck before

14:05

you could maybe get some degree of immortality

14:07

with the super super tagged

14:09

and and and missing and

14:11

dying altogether so they're old in their kind of like

14:13

is immortalized in this unfortunate realm

14:16

ah and one of these

14:18

sort of that that was that came about later on

14:20

in the development was adamant that and it's ah me from

14:23

getting any of this wrong but it at a by

14:25

at that counsellors also supposed to sort of coach

14:28

the ah the healthcare recipient

14:30

in to sort of letting go

14:33

so that they stop being a drain on

14:35

maps and train math and drink yeah yeah yeah that's

14:37

it well enough in the story that sort of that and in a

14:39

way the sticking point that we the so we learned

14:41

more about our narrator i'm paul who is

14:43

one of the architects of this program and went on to

14:45

me that you know for many very successful

14:47

decades this of course at the time

14:50

that were joining him as far in the past

14:52

and see his incensed about

14:54

that decision to to assess we had

14:57

a module to the counselors that

14:59

next and council that maybe

15:01

it's time to die not just helping people who have already

15:03

decided the die the thing

15:06

have you consider deficit thousand

15:08

to the i'm it's very dark arm if at

15:10

the same time of the other side of his his put this

15:12

into the story there is this sort of

15:15

this logic to it and

15:17

eighty eight i didn't read part

15:19

of it but i am

15:21

crafted out but i really like

15:25

the part where he talks about his generation

15:28

or he called them of actually going around

15:30

here i that jazz easy for users

15:33

where we are we were the awesome politically unwell

15:35

xenos is non jews and

15:37

that is yet the air raids and years as vice

15:39

grip of sort of like like the support

15:41

by this other technology minutes

15:43

with maybe it's something else is interesting

15:45

about the story that it's not just about you know why

15:48

we're future technologies actually about to

15:50

at least two that are working at cross

15:53

purposes and you can i mean really

15:55

i imagine a try to portray the samosas

15:57

this vice grip on his grinding years

16:00

there you have you know real people in

16:02

between getting pushed in opposite directions

16:04

enough like

16:05

the comfortable

16:06

yeah absolutely it

16:08

is it's almost like automated like malthusianism

16:11

or something almost it's like this pull this logic of a

16:13

political economy that sort of you

16:16

know put put you put given the sort

16:18

of like automated motor that that

16:20

you know like okay like it's not you're taking up

16:22

too many resources like it's time to

16:24

up and you know it's it's it's funny because

16:26

it resonates because it

16:29

works like that logic is very much built

16:31

in to a lot of you know

16:33

not only the u s health care system

16:35

but just a lot of healthcare i think it's one of those

16:37

things where you could say like oh

16:40

it's just me or know you know blah

16:42

blah blah a cost cutting measures and so

16:44

on ethical bucks but it really is a question

16:46

you have to ask a lot of people would have really

16:48

want to consider you know when

16:51

how long he and they and their is like you

16:53

could see this on both sides of the divide you could see

16:55

sort of like you know the researchers are

16:57

the silicone valley folks may be in a permutation

16:59

of the story going like well we must be a useful

17:01

tool you could release of composite public eye with

17:03

an ai you could really get three and

17:05

you could visit you real utility for somebody

17:09

enable when you meet his is

17:12

when you sort of like last under this scenario

17:15

like digit did digit sort of

17:17

you know did it evolved that way or did you arty kind

17:19

of have this like tension sort of that you wanted

17:21

to explore sort of in your mind as

17:24

a good question i do think and evolve that

17:26

way i'm i'm fairly so courses as often

17:28

have lost in the in the mists of time and memory

17:30

but i'm i'm pretty sad began with that

17:32

just that the seed of the idea of this

17:35

i'm just you know sewing health

17:37

a i that home at a certain point

17:39

the council since three different

17:41

things

17:42

the items and had an easy i

17:44

think there's often happens you didn't want to build us

17:46

a little bit of a future world around that of course

17:49

as with all fiction this is complete sam

17:51

there's actually no sixty to world here there's like

17:54

two things and and i meet you as a reader

17:56

to sort of imagine that that

17:58

cars hovering you know it ariel

18:00

highways in the background or or whatever

18:03

but he i mean that is that sense like

18:05

the a desert physically say but that the

18:08

a real science fiction has never about like

18:10

a technology is about technology going wrong

18:12

or the other ways in which technology sales

18:15

or behave the unexpectedly

18:17

and s i think just in the pure logic

18:19

of of cannot section in

18:21

writing something that the even mildly

18:24

interesting to read you you and

18:26

ever rising they're almost inevitably it has to

18:28

be not just not just the sort of

18:30

the encyclopedia entry but the history

18:32

of the counseling program from you twenty seventy

18:34

two it's gotta be you know

18:37

the moment at which this this weird

18:39

ai death counselor what's

18:42

up against this you know the future

18:44

of medical tax and what is

18:46

that what is that moment and were sort of were

18:49

in the room as those two things collide

18:51

and there's this guy who happens to be

18:53

quite smart to have a sort

18:55

of a wonderful can a panoramic

18:57

view this whole system and that and and

18:59

a little bit of of at right will be ironic as well

19:01

as are kind of

19:02

guide to that

19:04

collision are i'd say blisters one

19:06

applause there for a break we will be back on

19:08

robben sloan here in just a minute

19:15

i'm michael learmount editor in chief a vice

19:17

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19:47

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22:44

i think for sticking around cyber listers we're back

22:46

on with robin smooth

22:48

then we're going to story speaks to this very specifically

22:50

millennials the irony about being

22:53

an inbetween generation like

22:55

the you know we're always doomed to straddle the sea

22:57

change in culture and technology annually to that

22:59

the stories of as a little bit like millennials

23:01

are fine i'm hoping too old to take advantage

23:03

of the know advanced medical science

23:05

the keeps the boomers alive forever but

23:07

old enough to basically have a protracted

23:10

deathbed experience hi tech deathbed experience

23:12

with arguing with an ai about when it's

23:14

time to pull the plug in for me it really parallels

23:16

the way i feel about the internet which is

23:18

to say that i'm old enough to remember life

23:20

before it but young enough to have been

23:22

really formed by at were you thinking about the internet

23:25

are when you read the scene

23:26

i wasn't i don't know that i was thinking about it consciously

23:29

know but on but i do think that observation

23:31

is one hundred percent correct any

23:33

the same time i think that's true of every every slice

23:35

any spaces in between something we make well

23:38

every place in a modern in the modern

23:40

world there are probably places of people

23:42

and the other year are eleven hundred who

23:44

are like no not between and anything

23:46

either his , where

23:48

i guess i'm supposed to be on but as

23:50

turnips the eyes turn its citizens

23:52

father's the i should be be

23:55

was born at the right time to plant

23:57

and harvest these turn it up

23:59

about you know in in the modern

24:02

world i'm under the modern condition

24:04

i think that's that's a pretty universal doing so

24:06

really becomes or that the i think

24:08

actually interesting work becomes identified

24:10

exactly the things that

24:12

that feel that way to your generation

24:15

and i'm i'm i'm actually quite sure that people

24:17

board of and eighteen forties feel they have

24:19

that same sense of oh i missed

24:21

it i came to soon i'm sure kids

24:23

who are you know fourteen today well as

24:25

wealth but for sure that

24:28

millennial can i'm probably seen them a new generation

24:31

the internet's got to be a huge one of them for exactly

24:33

the reasons you say if i guess

24:35

and you'll see the future holds but i

24:38

mean my prediction is that health will increasingly

24:40

feel like one as well i think i do i do believe

24:42

there's there's some radical changes

24:44

in

24:46

the technology and healthcare coming

24:48

in this century and amino

24:50

it'll be or a real bummer when the rest is a all

24:52

about but only worth valley work city take those

24:55

days before your thirteen ah sorry

24:57

for says that way to have already

25:00

oh you don't already have like thirty

25:02

years of health data the is on yeah exactly

25:04

race guy for your database

25:07

right so i bet my prediction is that that's

25:09

gonna become pretty commonly scepticism

25:12

hello

25:13

yeah for for people or it could be

25:15

wrong but the kind of it

25:17

speaking about technology i i was curious to

25:20

a like i feel like a the last six

25:22

months especially we've entered like a new cycle

25:24

of sort of like discourse around

25:26

a i and what it's capable of kind of between

25:29

the you know the the google

25:31

sort of the qa engineer who the

25:35

you know and that's can can be as

25:38

a i was sent here it's and with dolly

25:41

and everything so if you it does the like we're kind of were reentering

25:43

adds another another phase of this it

25:45

goes round and round and

25:47

and with and without some without some same points but i'm curious

25:50

given that sort of like a picture of this story is

25:53

this is a i that is at least

25:55

capable of sort of i'm

25:57

you know do simulating

25:59

the any like he says he likes the tested he always

26:02

have those testing it to see how accurate is

26:04

how much of the a of the data

26:06

it remembers or about his history

26:10

a what

26:11

your read on sort of that

26:14

a i what how how do you you

26:17

know can think about an ai like that

26:19

and how you decided to position it like is

26:21

this sort of within the

26:23

realm of what's feasible now wish

26:26

are you anticipating sort of it's some advances

26:28

or how are you i'm just curious about how you sort of

26:31

since think about an ai like you they be deposited

26:33

a situation like this one that's been pressing

26:35

for the course it's and mean by that the real world

26:37

is sort of increasingly of increasingly

26:40

fictional especially in this in this domain thera

26:42

like

26:42

maven do it why why am i bothering imagining

26:45

weird stuff like and just you know point

26:47

to weird stuff around the corner

26:50

i will thing attorney this know the answer by

26:52

was i was happy to have spent so much time

26:54

on you i mean even at the center of the strove

26:57

for several years ago several years before

26:59

that i have spent a lot of her myself tinkering with

27:01

you know what seems that the time that like dazzling

27:03

advanced ai the now been rendered

27:05

you know completely obsolete

27:08

as are like to doesn't play things by

27:10

either side of the school and i thought i did

27:12

that really deep and i'm glad because

27:15

it allowed me i think i'm

27:17

nuts i go into a gruesome details but

27:19

i believe the with i talk about the

27:21

production and ai that screening of ai

27:23

where were these systems come from

27:25

with more than a d that they depend on yeah

27:28

i mean it's it's drawn from reality and

27:30

from the real texture of our of

27:32

of experience and and i'm glad to put that in

27:34

there rather than you know they are

27:37

either one day the computers

27:39

became indians or whatever so

27:41

that those when they make other adding just helped and i'm and

27:43

i'm something that for that for to do we want

27:45

to write this way and and right about these things

27:48

as you think that's pretty important it's not

27:50

actually hard test kind of gets the

27:52

end up on on how this stuff works these

27:55

days and them to not do that is kind

27:57

of up i think i've

27:59

they're election

27:59

right only duty

28:01

are you

28:02

though it did but then what does indicate the counselor

28:04

ah i actually think that someone could

28:07

make a counselor today ah

28:10

i don't think they probably say this

28:12

i'm because unfortunately i mean

28:14

this is still a huge unsolved problem

28:17

in in a i language

28:20

more than system on their way

28:22

too eager to bullshit and

28:24

is so far there's no solutions to that i'm

28:26

and so i'm in id like having

28:28

a chat about the you just i haven't a weird conversation

28:30

with or something for entertainment or like a video

28:33

game that's all fine obviously that would be

28:35

a huge problem if something is like advising

28:38

you on

28:39

the be healthier what choices to make about your

28:41

your mind the your body the

28:44

printer paper moment

28:46

in terms of at imagine a system

28:48

that could the know

28:50

a lot have access to the

28:52

a an encyclopedic sort of

28:54

storehouse of medical information then

28:57

would be able to sort of connect that to a conversation

29:00

either you know chatting and tax

29:02

or or in fact even with the synthesised voice

29:04

the

29:05

that someone truly to do that tomorrow it's it's

29:07

here now you're someone who reports on

29:10

a i set a fair number of conversations with

29:12

people to design didn't work for said this was pretty

29:15

straightforward like i could see someone

29:17

doing the signal be like you said being as exact robot

29:20

and releasing it soon them

29:23

initiative and issue said yes

29:25

shouldn't mess a can you talk

29:27

about the moment amiens

29:29

spoilers but the moment at the end of the story

29:31

where

29:33

how would i put this the a i've breaks

29:36

a little bit support laura fourth wire

29:39

as the i guess i love that is it is

29:41

the as worthless you know i actually

29:43

used as the years of gonna yeah i'll i'll i'll

29:45

marry that momentum it is a tiny spoiler

29:47

but

29:48

that i'll there at that moment and then and

29:50

then at as as i'm considering and i actually think

29:52

that

29:53

things have happened in the intervening years that have made

29:55

that you know all richer and and and

29:57

there's there's something that so

29:59

the minute

29:59

we're getting head of the story we've been through

30:02

this pesos sin and just kind

30:04

of learned what's happening what's happening

30:06

world and in and with this character

30:08

narrator paul and his death on

30:10

isis he's finally finishes his mandate

30:12

a conversation with a council he's like her

30:15

the me a break but then the last second under

30:17

voiced and assists and fuzzy is the author we'd

30:19

gotten some money intimations that the chain some

30:21

of the code recently so course there might still there

30:23

might be like some bugs some new bugs introduced

30:26

the family i'm here is not the synthesize

30:29

voice of the counselor which

30:31

which we learned is based on a particular woman in

30:35

ann arbor michigan time they are making it the

30:37

ah but but actually the robber coordinates we hear

30:40

snippets of the real training

30:42

data that they used to teach

30:44

this teach this how to plan the hundreds of is weird medical

30:46

words and how to sound soothing and and infighting

30:49

and wise and and everything else

30:51

and them it's like these little snippets from

30:53

that from from the studio with a recording it all

30:56

this decades ago years his own voice recording

30:58

see his the voices of some of his colleagues

31:00

now long dead and here's the real

31:02

original voice of this woman whose

31:04

name is in the story is almost washington gray

31:07

and she saying you know i'm agassiz

31:09

honey keeping things are going to hear me say this and

31:11

and all shirts himself say i

31:15

don't know many millions and

31:18

i think you're really gonna help them and

31:20

it's call you know say it's a cool moments at in

31:22

part it's it's supposed to get up there

31:25

the leverage and the scale of these

31:27

systems can approach i'm but also

31:29

it's supposed to crack it off against crack

31:31

it open again and reminds us that there's

31:33

always always real stuff

31:36

real human stuff at the height of these any

31:38

then we go sometime and

31:40

i think is an interesting to see that happen without

31:42

even with these new advanced models you will

31:45

be asking doll he or

31:47

the mid journey bar and discord

31:50

or any of a number of these a i image

31:52

models for some saying

31:54

in a lot you'll be like what the heck is

31:56

that why wouldn't draw that

31:58

is like a weird her

31:59

after a sheep a style said

32:02

it really is if i mean this is gross

32:04

but it's almost like that you know that

32:06

that that hippopotamus the got like swallowed

32:08

by the snake the sheep is still there inside

32:10

the stadiums going like ruff get

32:13

me out and there there's

32:15

no getting around that the data you know the data is

32:18

it is as all that the vast

32:20

vast frozen training data for all the systems

32:23

they're not obliterate the can't be amenable

32:25

the systems wouldn't work if at all essentially

32:27

went away

32:29

in there and a very young

32:32

appealingly go slowly way

32:34

what's funny cause those ghostly traces like

32:37

i mean they're evidence of the human hair and that

32:39

all of best but they're often considered

32:41

to be failures like that's when the system is going wrong it's

32:43

not working

32:44

right when it's snowing us something real

32:46

which i find kind of unsettling you know like

32:49

it's only really working when it when it has hidden all

32:51

that stuff away yeah and then otherwise

32:53

it is characterized as a failure or a good

32:55

i think that b and that's that tension

32:57

in those those failures those errors

33:00

and those to jesse seeing

33:02

the shapes the law whether the what is that inside

33:04

those are completely unresolved questions

33:07

on i i think there's probably

33:09

some sort of stupid legal

33:12

policy reasons that we don't see

33:14

these companies that are kind of responsible

33:16

these models discussing those more

33:18

the i mean they would really prefer not to i'm

33:21

a but they're so cetera

33:23

questions and they are going to have to get address

33:26

like this stuff is not been to become

33:28

a dolly or whatever

33:30

is not going to become the new photoshop

33:33

until or unless those

33:35

questions get addressed in both in

33:37

all of moral aesthetic we

33:40

got her

33:41

yeah i mean just the source material itself

33:44

way that you know

33:45

you know that i for cancer mixed up a scraped from

33:47

places that shouldn't be stripped from and of course but again

33:50

any non intimate i'm done i'm no ai

33:52

apologist am but i'm been course

33:54

sometimes you see that shape

33:57

under the skin and robin phone the writer to write

33:59

like i

33:59

it just it all this material and i'm writing

34:02

something and there's

34:04

it so this is question of like what does it

34:06

means her metabolize something

34:08

what does it need to transform things again i'm

34:10

completely unsolved unsettled

34:12

questions great artist deal is

34:15

dolly a great artist a hijab

34:17

a bigger margin of victory

34:19

so what are you wanted to point

34:21

that is that it's actually funny every weekend have settled

34:24

on this point here the very first story in

34:26

the volume is called busy bio

34:28

mara all a cod and it's about like

34:30

sort of this this conundrum in one way

34:32

like where they need are are these mega

34:35

corpse tech companies that about a few

34:37

you know future a few

34:38

there are steps down the line but they need they need

34:41

data and there's no jobs so

34:43

they if they have entropy mills where people to kind of like

34:45

and and they just like generate reams

34:47

of random data such as

34:49

yet of of these shapes get disguised

34:52

sounds read the it's is one of the

34:54

linkages through these these were

34:56

these different worlds and that in the terraform anthology

34:59

their arm i want to citizens of

35:01

are just only to send a check for that for afraid

35:03

you you i will be interested in and props and the your viewers

35:05

and listeners will will be to the i'm in l

35:08

a r a i r t ball

35:10

now are saying we need to really personal

35:12

save preserve but also enjoy

35:15

these a i'd art models we have now

35:17

because they are that the last that

35:19

will be untainted by reams

35:22

of a i arts to know that

35:24

they're now the internet is a was and will be more and

35:26

more and more it'll be a full of things produced

35:28

by these models for the future models that like suck

35:31

it all in will be like that's why she's

35:33

not that obvious his autograph metaphors you could use

35:35

that they're like they're like it's going to read more and

35:37

more yeah to the feeding themselves

35:40

as a oh so this is how are

35:42

is supposed to love you like out the well i

35:45

go before we can do that so it's that it's the

35:47

twenty twenty one twenty twenty two

35:49

vintage models i like the last

35:52

that we're all human you

35:54

know all human said which is weird

35:57

it either to so inches

35:59

the

35:59

we don't like

36:01

sticky generations down the line it's been

36:03

feeding on itself then we start getting

36:05

like really interesting quirk a great now it's

36:07

all derivative of human culture you know

36:09

it's it's imitative but later

36:11

when it's talking to itself and have developed it's own language

36:13

and it's feeding itself on it's own influences like that

36:15

more circling like insane like

36:17

a black committee of visual are not going

36:20

back to executive it'll be inscrutable to us but it

36:22

won't matter is all the buyers will be other

36:24

a eyes were just like bidding we

36:27

all know says language sleeps

36:29

a girl internet and loving and

36:33

it'll be a good thing in the long run i

36:36

i also want to before we move too far on because i

36:38

had also totally underline that but last

36:41

section and section had kind of a little bit of a different

36:43

reading of it be at it and i wanted

36:45

to hear

36:47

your thoughts because

36:49

to me it almost seemed like seemed like he's so he's

36:51

not really that really like at

36:53

sort of a start up guy but there's on a lot of things

36:55

that are sort of an all analogous to like sort of the way

36:57

that technology and technology is developed

37:00

and sort of deploy that he's grappling with

37:02

here and to meet was almost like here

37:04

he is sort of like

37:06

years and years later after suffering and wrestling

37:09

with this with this moral more a question

37:11

and you know it seem like he's

37:13

feeling like he had really done the wrong thing by unleashing

37:16

this in one sense threat

37:18

frankenstein's monster that it convinced

37:20

all these people to sort of that to and their

37:22

allies and now he gets to sort

37:25

of go back at the you know and he

37:27

gets a moment to reconsider ski here

37:29

sir of unvarnished bad moment when he

37:31

was proceeding or maybe still had a

37:33

chance to to stop

37:35

and i think that that would that is also another

37:37

thing that's powerful

37:39

the day when

37:41

the name accompany you know facebook

37:43

or whatever maybe you would one would hope that

37:45

they say like well maybe if we had a chance to

37:47

hear you know what we were doing back

37:50

around that table back in the day me

37:52

too weak to that you know we may be maybe we

37:54

would stop it or maybe we would have some fresh

37:56

you know considerations about it was that part

37:58

of your calculus at all as well

38:00

no i don't know that it was whether to hear

38:03

you say that be a part of

38:05

the season he says exceptionally psi

38:07

phi way more than the eyes of is the

38:09

fact that this is a large scale tax

38:11

project and platform a disability

38:14

public entity and for

38:16

public purposes and and it now has ever

38:18

is another thing where where i think they're really smart

38:20

ai people they did

38:22

making remarks are writer

38:24

and internet and internet policy person in jack clark

38:27

who is very concerning writes about

38:29

as often is very concerned that all

38:31

the biggest

38:32

the systems and deployments of computers

38:35

you know this or ai training clusters and

38:37

then the models themselves are now all completely

38:40

private projects and

38:42

that's actually seen as you go back ten years

38:44

and as someone to predict what the say the world have been

38:46

our as really twenty years probably

38:48

not what they would have said they would have said yeah you'll be you know they'll

38:50

be these these grand at academic

38:53

you know initiatives that them you know yet

38:56

sort of the or commercialized and privatized

38:58

and his private versions of them

38:59

in yeah there's a lot of reasons why

39:01

it's worked out this way i'm betting

39:04

that jax morning as i did

39:06

isn't and it like this accede needs

39:08

to be you need to be a capability

39:10

of public institutions to and so what

39:13

would have to change

39:14

the order for the university of michigan

39:17

to do a big ambitious project

39:19

were you know the national institute

39:21

of health or you know whoever you name

39:23

it i think that's a that's

39:25

it's is that that part of it didn't seem

39:27

so like shocking that are distortion

39:29

singer so shocking and fi fi but at

39:31

this moment it really does

39:33

it

39:34

i mean i guess we could probably consider is that it was

39:36

that it was some the part of some like consortium

39:39

or something like public private partnership where

39:41

there was like and a i thought was that would probably

39:43

be the vessel through which it you know it's

39:45

because there are these there are all these like

39:48

tech companies and health tech companies that kind

39:50

of like fly under the radar because they're not you

39:52

know google or or facebook

39:54

or or or amazon projects but

39:56

they often get acquired by them you know a

39:59

but

39:59

and and i think that there are ways into the

40:02

bloodstream that the at it be a maybe it is unrealistic

40:05

or red strikes us that way now that the

40:07

public

40:08

though you know institution would would

40:10

i would i would be the one to unleash yet but

40:12

certainly i think that it still doesn't during

40:14

the plausibility of

40:16

the scenario in general because there are those

40:19

pathways to it and it think that you

40:21

know either bits with it'll

40:23

it's a one way that sort sort of things make their

40:25

way into the mainstream that i think that you

40:27

know as said like idea that

40:29

people are watching quite as much you know that

40:32

that this point the haven't that the the major and as

40:34

as are pretty closely guarded but

40:36

these venus and his

40:38

v startups they get often huge

40:41

amounts of money to to the to maybe do a project

40:43

like this you know could feasibly

40:45

in pull it off before before a lot

40:47

of folks and it is it's silly as silly mean

40:49

i get not like there's any shortage of shortage i stories

40:52

that i'm this i'm this actually returns

40:54

me to that that's an insistence that that

40:56

people who who wanna think and write

40:58

about this really ought to get into that

41:01

into the grid of it on because

41:03

i mean i you think of that you think of the little startup

41:06

that's going to make some cool new thing and it's going to

41:08

come out of nowhere because they've got some amazing your idea

41:10

in one of the things that they need is a

41:12

huge grid of of compute

41:15

which they may be will borrow from somewhere else or they'll

41:17

rent it from amazon or they'll build it and some

41:19

secret basement somewhere they also need time

41:22

like even at even at that scale these

41:24

models you can think of dolly or the

41:27

new google language models or any of

41:29

them you know when they published their papers they

41:31

they usually give the spectrum like this was trained

41:33

on you know

41:34

five hundred thousand city user

41:36

is or whatever over the

41:38

point two months

41:40

three point two months

41:44

what if you want me to feels almost

41:46

biological that was almost like gestational

41:49

and that like took to grapple with those

41:51

processes are kind of stealing like

41:54

like what does it feel like to be i mean let's say

41:56

it was it was it was as for and

41:58

uses like you know decided the cyber

42:00

are a i dream project

42:03

were like it's going great

42:05

how much longer we

42:08

hope we hope it's going to get to the third month

42:10

and will be like an execute

42:13

and it won't just are kind of like you know

42:15

risk whatever like you know it will go

42:17

and say what you want to merge insane from it's from

42:20

a prop as it's while the whole thing as they're somewhat

42:22

there's some great texture their that is like actually

42:25

regulatory is fun frankly for

42:28

fiction and for storytelling in a way that like

42:30

sky the ai

42:32

is is now i

42:35

had this is a set of a tangential

42:37

a question but it it's it's it's kind

42:39

of upon went to these questions are kind of like the in

42:41

the orbit of so what what if

42:44

the you did you think it all about

42:46

i'm sort of like the impact

42:48

of this on like the labour equation were like

42:51

it's healthcare counsellors are

42:53

you know a major major

42:55

job and ,

42:58

they are they

43:00

did they did they get there are they working and working

43:02

oh mars and for females now or

43:04

the and boy the seem entropy know as entropy

43:06

as as as seller phrased it has

43:09

been taste it has like that he

43:11

says who manage to at home no

43:13

no i do nothing about that thus again demonstrating

43:15

the paucity of mine and as

43:18

his life i visit you always your doesn't

43:20

take my tivo like didn't

43:22

realize this realize this a future at all it's just

43:24

a sort of life the all i like

43:26

a curtain held up in front of a light so

43:29

now virtues i mean he is the reality of course

43:31

with would there be huge she's questions

43:33

and huge disruptions about that healthcare mean

43:35

it's the economics of health care i really

43:37

like it it's sort of our if i got like

43:39

this big kind of like leviathan driver

43:41

behind the story but i don't talk about and

43:43

series west in fact i don't understand

43:45

that any serious way so i

43:48

fully admit i think that lucky that the paucity

43:51

work in this case you are

43:53

able to sort of the your

43:55

knowledge and assumptions into the story to create

43:57

a complete laden in our found inadequate

43:59

fan isn't it and or to degrade under the

44:01

story who what you need a

44:05

is so you and we've already kind of covered that

44:07

cover the question of how to get how

44:09

you think it it's aged is there any

44:11

saying it's in there that to

44:13

view an interview we read it previous to

44:15

this as if if it was there anything that sorta like

44:17

made you wrinkle you know low better

44:20

get like ha that about detail feels weird or

44:22

was there any there any between sort of

44:25

these vantage points of

44:27

you're not looking at the future and twenty fifteen or sixteen

44:29

and now he has inquest while i

44:31

really wasn't nearly twenty fifteen us point sixteen

44:33

is that when with that only works on us oh

44:37

so nicely

44:38

that's crazy some they

44:41

did or as that an hour in my mind it was as

44:43

my my i am i have like the scroll buffer

44:45

in my memory only goes back so far i'm kind of like things

44:47

become the misty pass very quickly that's

44:49

a s we believe

44:51

senator new main thing

44:53

on wealth and knowing that i actually

44:55

time and even more pleased with it is because no

44:58

doesn't it doesn't fill me with with shame or

45:00

regret

45:02

i will say one thing right at a i

45:04

was it and i regretted several times of intervening

45:06

years i'm just sometimes for my own curiosity

45:09

entertainment then down

45:11

live under certain parts of it and that that makes eat

45:13

meat the writer make they can make me travel that and

45:17

one from things i do think it's success or the story

45:20

that i never my grand is not really science

45:22

fictional or are you know

45:24

the eyes you just said this is fully

45:26

, it is my belief

45:28

is read this is that this is that completely overblown

45:30

statement but i statement but i will make it all

45:32

the same

45:33

i believe that every good short story

45:35

to be about death novels can be about

45:37

many things novels to be about

45:40

weaving or you know the word eating

45:42

twelve or a great migrations

45:44

or you know romances everything trees

45:46

the stories

45:48

mark on some level the about death and

45:51

i follow that rule with

45:54

with cancer which candidate is the story about death

45:56

and confronting death and being afraid of death

45:58

and the getting

45:59

that and everything

46:01

interested just to be a contrarian i just pulled

46:03

up a list of like great american

46:05

short stories and they are all

46:07

about death or day

46:09

you're pro hockey

46:14

the name is a great on a necklace they

46:16

class novels one hundred percent

46:18

that minister it's your is your name of the great

46:20

sure i mean maybe like gift of the match i

46:23

i'm loving it

46:26

, to death in the lottery this

46:28

year that like mean occurrence alfred good grades

46:30

are good medals or designs with this

46:32

a pretty deeply held opinion of mine opinion realize it's ridiculous

46:34

am but that's actually what makes me like like

46:37

me pulling to it even harder i am

46:39

harder truly to leave truly to it's other as i the

46:42

just about all of mine

46:44

stuart work

46:45

at least attempt to t that

46:47

standards

46:49

the why you that eminent the because of like

46:51

the fact that you have to communicate ally in a short

46:53

amount of time that you'd have to constrict to the quake

46:55

and that's the ultimate quakers is dot him

46:58

and i don't know i'm i'm almost i'm almost

47:01

i'm

47:02

reluctance to like even try to

47:04

analyze it is for me it's almost like

47:06

it's like the like

47:08

hidden thing inside the box or something or

47:10

like is like a magic spell i don't know who i realize

47:12

this analysis years ago decided it of

47:15

my like i discovered something i decided

47:17

eight years ago and down it just has seemed

47:20

itself so so true to

47:22

me and certainly of course all my my

47:24

favorite favorite short stories are by death

47:26

they the great story by i'm tobias

47:29

wolff are called a bullet in the brain

47:32

one of my favorite is absolute just a killer

47:34

story and who up with little literally asus

47:37

deluxe to restore a back story about the moment

47:39

the moment with death and stuff

47:41

phenomenal so i don't know it's the it's

47:43

silly but it's also here

47:46

it is yeah about

47:49

that story that story haunting last lines

47:52

anyway as i think we're going to ensure

47:55

our here but this time i wanted to see

47:57

if we had an aide clock am not looking at that

47:59

after that skews i am i going okay

48:02

i do have one phone rings ed ah

48:04

is a terraform overall question for saw

48:06

guys in chattanooga seventy questions but ai where

48:08

the story or terraform in general please throw

48:11

them into them chat we did have one early at the top

48:13

of the show

48:14

the deal with the terraform audio book brian

48:17

what's going on there

48:19

coming

48:20

it's gonna yeah we don't have a rhythm is

48:22

just yet but it's that really cool

48:24

they're doing it with them would light

48:26

up a whole cast of different narrators so

48:29

it's like big they're going have a different voices

48:31

maybe like may fifteen different

48:33

rates really know of every story has

48:35

story has

48:35

that hurt or they sent us the spread i would like

48:38

we will proof is reader thing with like sixty

48:40

different readers which

48:42

i didn't win a that they would do it that way but

48:44

of course i mean to make sense for short stories velvety

48:46

for voice that's how you do it

48:48

anyway so we don't know how long it would take to make but

48:51

hopefully it'll come of him

48:53

yeah it is on the way it's in production

48:56

we had even sort of broached the

48:58

idea of using sort of

49:01

the narration from from a

49:03

source for these podcasts but it was there so i was can

49:05

be done in time see i hang tight it'll be the

49:07

it'll be there and will be it you know just like

49:09

you mcd as you know robin that such

49:11

a great job with design and producing

49:14

these things just the whatever the name

49:16

of yeah it's beautiful it's impossible

49:19

to like the dark is all inserted into

49:21

the into the pages and it's

49:23

it's really it's really really great ah so

49:25

i can only assume that be assume production

49:27

company that they work with they do the audio book will

49:29

be just as just as as

49:32

i'm just gonna say like i love and city

49:34

going straight to paperback with this like

49:36

by buying likes his ears

49:38

of the was it as i learned about olympic

49:40

sized i live in paperback absolutely absolutely

49:42

i really respected not a grander and yup

49:45

, yup yup scrape they've been they've

49:47

been greatly have been great innovators

49:50

of and innovators of of supporters of that the paperback

49:52

original has it's called you know it's it arrives

49:54

in the form it

49:56

the to be

49:57

that he was given a person

49:59

kind of field

49:59

in a safe i such as a used bookstore

50:02

and kind of going through all the ancient paperbacks

50:04

and finding the treasures in there and that's

50:06

verse specific tactile smell

50:09

i'm glad the terraform is going to be a part of

50:11

that

50:12

i want to like rabid a job for a start smelling

50:14

like musty and right you know like

50:16

i'm not a rape and this it's gotta like run through the

50:19

a i like cooking machine for three point

50:21

five months and them come out the orphanage that's

50:23

cool laugh it easier i don't know

50:26

i'm , by that lesser live

50:28

or what was it would that

50:30

be other know

50:31

the tibetan from t and brand the edge of

50:33

or something to get to where it needs to be our

50:36

ideal doesn't look like said has anything else for a

50:38

so i'm gonna hit this button and

50:41

, thank you clear thank you brian

50:43

think you robin for coming under cyber and

50:45

talking about terraform during the the readings

50:47

with us as a book again as i said

50:49

his out to day go by

50:52

it and find bookstores everywhere

50:55

and we will be back oh

50:57

we do have we do if i'm at

50:59

a vow a second here for me to school

51:02

though robin i don't

51:04

know if you've read them but if you have which dystopian

51:06

novel on climate change do you prefer

51:09

ministry for the future by can we stay in robinson

51:11

or kim kim stanley robinson's or termination

51:14

shock by neal stephenson

51:16

that is while as last

51:18

as long as i love it love it

51:21

read ice i can't properly answer the question

51:23

let's to the haven't read

51:25

limitations

51:26

i did was ministry for the future but i'm

51:28

i'm surprised actually i'm that

51:31

the wind up girls by

51:33

paolo but she gloopy was not him

51:35

back in contention there because

51:37

it is as is that is one

51:40

is would be hard i'd be hard pressed to choose between

51:42

that and i'm as he either kim stanley robinson's

51:44

novels the ministry for the future which

51:46

is now which don't think it's a mean

51:48

nice to be it actually there it's real it's now

51:51

the but his previous

51:53

both a couple books ago new york twenty one sporty

51:56

isn't it also also you know in

51:58

the ring as kind of us i

52:00

think it actually a yemeni all of

52:02

his work and this is so great and sir it's funny or twenty one

52:04

forty for those who haven't read it is worth meeting

52:06

to that is a story about climate disaster

52:08

it takes place in and around new york city

52:12

the bravery the courage to the book is to depict

52:14

among so many other things super

52:17

fun would be the people i'm around

52:20

people driver on a boat and the canals in manhattan

52:22

and to see i mean this is

52:24

this is what i think of fiction writer has

52:26

gotta do you can't just be oh

52:28

yeah of course it's the some terrible

52:31

as bad as all bad we know that nothing

52:34

all bad is always joy

52:36

and delay in cool

52:38

romantic date see it out in the shadows

52:40

of the towers on the glittering canals and

52:43

if you don't imagine that stuff and like why

52:45

bother do something else self later funny

52:47

when like neuroscientist are these great yes

52:49

always always that my personal was end in

52:51

grows de silva space in which it is allowed

52:54

it was

52:56

there

52:57

okay we're not going to top that organ

53:01

, we will was that be the

53:03

the ecb the exit as again again saying

53:05

again go terraform why it

53:07

is full of wonderful short stories it's

53:09

out now it's incredible and

53:11

whereas be back next week with another life readings

53:14

and another episode of cyber cyber

53:17

going to talk to lorenzo about his time

53:19

a desk on seeing a john deere

53:21

tractor broken in doomed played on

53:23

one of screens in real time skyn very

53:25

exciting but for the that next week

53:27

ah stay safe out there earlier it is

53:29

a dangerous place especially with all these a eyes

53:32

running around to

53:34

buy everything