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for a walk

1:01

no out there on the internet i am

1:03

matthew gold and this is cycles

1:06

last , a hacker posted trove

1:09

stolen documents online detailing the weird

1:11

internal struggles he suddenly

1:13

everybody's a little game company called

1:16

roadblocks you don't know what robots is

1:19

is as can each south america and they will explain

1:21

it to it have documents contained

1:23

have fascinating fat content

1:25

fascinating insights into how gaming companies

1:28

whose products depend on player freedom

1:30

and creativity must navigate treacherous

1:32

waters of children free speech

1:34

china mass shootings speech clinton

1:36

moderation so weird story

1:38

were a child driven in or for that sandbox

1:41

and lead to troubling and weird questions

1:43

about troubling like suicide was with

1:46

me today to talk about all of it is returning

1:48

champion motherboard staff writers you're supposed

1:50

to see staff comebacks in the woods

1:54

and serve hunt for having me or as so

1:57

what type of roadblocks today of

1:59

high road blocks of all things

2:02

that we could be talking about in this way more

2:05

i mean roadblocks might

2:07

be dismissed as

2:09

just say sunless all children's

2:12

game or gaming platform was have

2:14

you want mikulas but the reality is

2:16

is that festival is when the war

2:19

interesting concept moderation discussions

2:22

or that exists right now in are probably

2:24

more interesting the face for cultists for anything like

2:26

that stars in part because the second

2:28

point is that you know

2:30

for all of what mr wants to do will face

2:32

wants to do saying what to make the metaverse

2:35

they block basically is it you know you can make

2:37

your own assets make your own world's

2:39

you move physically virtually

2:42

through those worlds as well so

2:45

when a hacker released a bunch of internal

2:47

documents ah of

2:49

course the highest in of itself is interesting somewhat

2:52

the was really interesting is the

2:54

documents themselves

2:56

seen earnest your reporting own reporting

2:58

reading about clinton moderation the and not paying

3:00

attention to my blocks and he is doing

3:02

it wrong basically says one the most

3:04

pressing on immigration issues

3:07

happening right now year

3:09

for those who don't know what what roadblocks

3:11

exactly is can you kind of walk us

3:13

through it's it's it's bit like minecraft

3:16

but there's even more control the

3:19

over what can be made right the

3:21

at a fair like he did it looks very similar

3:23

some minecraft uma was block key you

3:25

have killer so avatars are terrorists

3:28

to see go for will that salsa saying

3:30

ah but where's mine crosses

3:33

sources limited

3:35

in it's simplicity and you know people are a

3:37

creative with that simplicity as well

3:40

as providence us you know digging or building

3:43

ah to pull of are generally to roadblocks

3:45

gives the players or rather

3:48

than members as which means he much more

3:50

control in that say you

3:52

want to design the t

3:54

shirt love of roadblocks avatars to where

3:56

you can do that's you want to make fully

3:58

functional game

3:59

them inside this roadblocks

4:02

wells and a mother tyson

4:04

as well and you can get the on platform

4:06

car seats a row bucks a month

4:08

if you big enough you say that for see it currencies

4:11

well you can do that so

4:13

yes , know i think probably most parents

4:16

or people who who

4:18

i would think of it as a video game

4:20

but really it's is it's

4:23

gaming platform sauce social

4:25

network and that brings

4:27

up a hell of a lot of different some

4:30

issues seen or even maybe not

4:32

maybe political burst of breaking the

4:34

going into other countries and then we'll moderation

4:37

is used to come with as well

4:38

it is a little bit a geopolitics of the story

4:41

will get to that the i'm

4:44

just just can drive the services like a sixty

4:46

eight billion dollar a year isn't

4:49

this miserable actually this is an entertainment

4:51

juggernaut this is not a small saying right

4:54

leona yeah that's why

4:56

i let it was you know people

4:58

may dismiss it but that they would be very

5:01

very stupid to do that is

5:03

as he say this is s multi billion

5:05

dollar juggernauts it

5:07

is pushing into different markets

5:10

and something like half of all

5:12

children and the us play

5:14

roadblocks in some

5:16

form either in as i alluded to

5:18

this entire ecosystem around this

5:20

of legitimate developers some of whom

5:23

made millions of dollars a

5:25

year said this is no this

5:29

, not something just to the size this

5:31

is whether people like it or not a

5:33

massive part of told

5:35

surfer young people in the united states are

5:38

so what are these documents and were to become

5:40

from though

5:42

system where they came from a

5:45

hacker seemingly system

5:47

so stands and there's a specific

5:50

roadblocks employee you know we don't have to

5:52

go into that specific person is his

5:55

arms the also the information

5:57

released awesome to the last person was making

5:59

their scanners d that's also think they

6:02

, artists and this has

6:04

to also tried to extort

6:06

up roadblocks in some

6:08

way you know we didn't have the exact contours of

6:10

those negotiations for they try to do that

6:12

and seems roadblocks awesomely

6:14

said no so this has to them released

6:18

released documents online as for the

6:20

files themselves they are

6:23

files themselves mix of

6:26

internal presentation scenery

6:28

in pdf, or in slides,

6:30

full mats and then you also have

6:32

a google documents,

6:35

which, you know you can didn't a

6:38

feedback regal space, you just view them

6:40

on your own own machine and you've been browsing session can

6:43

still see all the comments that these

6:45

roblox senior employees have left

6:47

so it's a lot of internal

6:49

staff flow charts diagrams

6:51

quarterly

6:53

meetups monthly roundup

6:56

as well and a loss of it sucks his own

6:59

content moderation but not exclusively

7:01

then you got three and a meaty stories

7:04

out of these documents the first is just kind

7:06

of we've already discussed talking about

7:09

the fact these documents are out there venue

7:12

, this to that are much more report

7:14

it out and would really going to the slides

7:16

really clicking through everything it's like

7:18

four gigs of these presentations and and

7:21

an internal documents the

7:23

first it is

7:26

revealed documents show how robots

7:28

planned to been to chinese censorship

7:31

so what is going on here

7:35

yeah for this is based on to

7:37

documents mostly one

7:40

, is written by roadblocks

7:43

itself and it seems to be

7:45

a summary and or affect them their

7:48

reflection analysis of what

7:50

roadblocks nice to do to

7:52

break into the chinese market and it seems

7:54

this was written after was written to

7:57

china civically hundred and say who

7:59

who when labour it seems to just the was

8:01

a trip to china this

8:04

reynosa few years old but it

8:06

really does give some really

8:09

interesting contacts or was roadblocks

8:11

or matt to do and i guess just before we continue

8:14

i would just say very briefly

8:16

sort of the art of war

8:18

roadblocks didn't sign up they did

8:20

loans in china or

8:23

they made a chinese specific

8:25

version of their platform on products

8:28

it lasted something like

8:30

five months and then ago pools

8:33

are now they're trying to do it again so

8:35

that that's the context but that's not really the

8:37

story of a see the story is was in these documents

8:40

and all the sets the had to do so

8:42

that's the first documented in the second documents

8:45

is one written by written cents

8:48

which is the company that roadblocks

8:50

ultimately partners with to get into

8:52

china is you on american

8:54

or european company or whatever trying

8:57

to get into china you

8:59

basically has to partner with a chinese

9:01

company not

9:03

only for the source of on the grounds

9:06

knowledge really of of how to do these

9:08

things but i imagine just

9:10

to get approved by the chinese government you know every

9:13

video game in china is approved

9:15

by the governments and these documents

9:17

go into you know some of them

9:20

a high level of detail others are a lot more granular

9:22

and of as a for the roadblocks

9:24

is perceptions or predictions

9:26

but they really late through the steps the roadblocks

9:29

a how to do or had in front of

9:31

them when they were getting into china alright

9:34

so i think you just gave just gave listeners a heart

9:36

attack because i heard

9:37

heard it like notification

9:41

you you killed that for me i'm so sorry

9:44

oh my god as like

9:46

the needed where did a come very

9:49

were very strange i don't know what's going

9:51

on technology today it's been it's been a weird

9:53

day the here at the cyber stream

9:55

okay so we're talking about what it takes to

9:57

gets in break into the chinese market

10:00

robots could have had it all laid out soon

10:02

what what was it

10:05

like it i just i find it hard to believe

10:07

the robot are

10:09

the gave it encourages such freedom the

10:13

like not big f freedom but just little

10:15

of freedom of creativity

10:17

in really relies on user generated content

10:20

how does an american company start

10:23

navigating the very complicated

10:25

online world of of

10:30

of china in like how how does it get a

10:32

game stood up there would have the things the

10:34

robots is looking at that they would have to potentially avoid

10:37

the i mean yeah user generated content

10:39

as of course already a massive

10:41

issue in china when you look at

10:44

you know any number of things that they

10:46

do with the great firewall or specimen comes to social

10:48

media censorship

10:51

now imagine that applying

10:53

it to a virtual

10:55

will platform and all sorts of things

10:57

that people might make you know maybe they

10:59

would host protests in there

11:01

about taiwan i think that did actually come up

11:03

at one point while roadblocks was

11:05

that will it make any number of other

11:07

things as to what they're robots

11:09

was has to do i mean day

11:12

with has too much more

11:15

redundant the monitor basically

11:17

every user generated assets on

11:19

the and when they went through

11:21

the sources that

11:24

the our of how they really to do that

11:26

the really do moderate contents

11:28

in some ways but it seems to

11:30

be a little bit more reactive

11:33

depending on the case rights

11:35

tears everything will get reviews

11:38

before it went lies on

11:41

the chinese version of roadblocks and

11:43

then i mean you has the

11:46

much bigger tasks

11:48

of robotics with has to do which

11:50

is stuff like hosting of course all chinese

11:53

user data or rather old user data

11:55

of people using the chinese version in

11:58

china you know you have this if not

12:00

pool and the the version of

12:02

i filed in china all the data has to be there

12:05

this is to comply with local chinese

12:07

lore on you know cybersecurity

12:09

all you know you could read

12:11

the as surveillance right and

12:13

i even comes up in the when a

12:16

talking about how to identify

12:18

groom is in china because roadblocks

12:20

has a pretty big child grooming problem

12:22

me just given the scale a and given

12:25

this target audience a that would

12:27

actually be easier in china because

12:29

roadblocks plan to collect the phone

12:31

numbers of everybody he signed up and also

12:33

that government issued at ease and

12:35

then that would be verified against a chinese

12:38

government a p i and they would know

12:40

exactly he was playing the game so

12:42

it's not sit on one side you have

12:45

the increase moderation

12:47

assets and then uses has sources

12:50

this massive undertaking of infrastructure

12:53

to even be able to run

12:55

in size china and

12:57

i mean there will be of a things like you can't

13:00

has username saying

13:02

certain words he knows since his presidency

13:04

or whatever you'd , to deal

13:07

with chinese payment processors

13:09

you know they're not necessarily going to be the same as

13:11

the ones in the west and of

13:13

course china as

13:15

other regulations so

13:18

north when it comes to addiction

13:20

to gaming's you know sometimes you can be allowed

13:22

to play video games for a few hours

13:24

a day and then also sort of the and

13:26

t gambling stuff

13:28

as well which is committee and issue for games

13:30

when you to micro transactions to micro boxes

13:33

ransom like that basically

13:35

every facet the roadblocks

13:38

in some way know

13:40

what's going to be touched by his expansion

13:43

into china

13:45

in it didn't was another thing that

13:47

are there was a really interesting of a document says that there's a certain

13:50

air cynicism to it the

13:52

the robots expected

13:54

the company to be hacked and further people

13:57

to copy the game from day one

13:59

once they in china

14:01

it

14:02

the i mean that was one of learn more fascinating

14:05

spies and this is the in the presentation

14:07

by is written by roadblocks

14:10

, on a slice coors

14:13

coors he lays

14:15

out that you know as soon as they as

14:19

their excuse for with a program on to chinese

14:21

third as they need to expects

14:24

the a group of hundreds of people are

14:26

gonna be reverse engineering and i wouldn't go to detail

14:28

but presumably those people working for

14:30

the chinese state the censorship

14:33

agencies will have a going through

14:35

the cove is because seen as

14:37

ties why user data and aces and we have

14:39

sunshine eraser the him they can go for a says

14:42

less then the more this

14:45

is why old statements in the size

14:47

is that roadblocks anticipate is one

14:50

that hacking again says company

14:52

in general worldwide would increase because

14:55

of this expansion is a sinus that makes

14:57

a lot of sense but and also the

15:00

anticipated that perhaps they

15:02

would be hacked even by that chinese

15:04

partner and at the time they ahem

15:06

settles on ten cents when they

15:08

did this presentation as presentation mention that happened later

15:11

they were also exploring on

15:14

a with nessie switches a more specifically

15:17

chinese gaming company know they works

15:20

, the diablo of also game was signed

15:23

the known since i recently recently

15:26

both lox anticipated look when we launched

15:28

in sign or even before we before ten

15:31

cents or whoever made has tell made

15:33

which would which would be

15:35

crazy and you know tencent

15:37

never go back to me when else hey did

15:40

you had for oh for fucks ah

15:42

and roadblocks position that more

15:44

as you know when we're expanding into market with

15:46

panel will eventuality is by the saturday

15:49

food i was important some likely enough to

15:51

put in writing is incredibly interesting

15:55

it's also interesting to me because it sounds like from

15:57

the conversation that it was cultural

16:01

fit of the was going to be a cultural change

16:03

but a technological one was going

16:05

to be a little bit easier than i think you would think because one

16:07

of the structures are already stood up in china that

16:10

you can partner with somebody like ten said second

16:12

could have nas help navigate

16:14

the this stuff is not too

16:16

hard to do what i mean it's hard

16:18

to do with content moderation and a big on my

16:20

space it's a nightmare but it's not

16:22

like it's not over it's not overwhelming

16:25

and the way that we're think we would normally associate

16:27

something like this was being yeah

16:30

there there's a little tables a liaison source of

16:32

all the stuff so they need to do

16:35

and there's a column

16:37

this as as system has here small medium

16:39

large the vast majority

16:41

are medium and these include

16:44

the anti anti addiction controls

16:46

the full ap localization of course as a translator

16:49

right for from english whatever language into

16:51

chinese the only one that is large

16:54

is the local web servers and

16:57

that is you know setting up the server

16:59

infrastructure to host the data

17:02

of uses as the chinese

17:05

version , read lots of that is a big asking

17:07

us that's of course not trivial

17:09

few you you basically you're

17:11

making you're roadblocks cuts hosts

17:14

you know that is get does gonna take some times

17:17

but yes source of what you would pull

17:19

you into stasis they already have some

17:21

systems they could

17:23

using a such as i moderation they were just

17:25

ramp up said and others they were light

17:27

bulb we going to make her in china and

17:29

then we can roll out globally as an option

17:31

anyway such as the anti dixon stuff that

17:33

i have to make and sinus well they

17:36

they sources speculated where we can offer that as

17:38

a parental control or

17:40

elsewhere and the world like oh hey you know you

17:42

turn on the setting in your kids in a play roadblocks

17:44

the three hours a day something like that so

17:47

they could get more

17:49

out of it than simply than expansion into

17:52

just the chinese market they could develop

17:54

features the they may want to roll out

17:56

to the the r o w was a

17:58

rescue boat was they cool

17:59

the flight or , were imposed therefore

18:02

break or twenty we just a pox about the robots

18:04

hack and everything we learned that the multi

18:06

billion dollar game company in what it takes to run it's

18:09

phyllis new the podcast will be right back

18:11

after a few words from our sponsors you're

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watching us live on twitch right

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20:07

all right everybody thank you for sticking around i mess you

20:09

gulps we you are listening to cyber

20:11

model just of talks and we're talking about roadblocks

20:14

i'd so before the break we we could have had a nice

20:16

segue set up to to move

20:18

from china and to talk about kind of the

20:21

other half of the sack which is the other story

20:23

that you wrote what are the

20:25

gives more are you the whole thing is

20:27

fascinated me but because i've written a little bit

20:29

about some of the weird stuff the goes on in robots spits

20:32

documents reveal have real blocks handles grooming

20:34

and mass shootings simulators

20:39

you said earlier that grooming as a big

20:41

problem on the platform it's a place where

20:43

there's a lot of kids and huge easy

20:45

to be anonymous how does

20:48

roadblocks handled through

20:51

so they they

20:53

have multiple ways of doing and i

20:55

guess just first of all days they have

20:58

some acids which are so

21:01

sources purely tech in our

21:03

and that might be automated

21:05

is reviewing of material than

21:07

they have tech assistance which says you

21:09

know maybe pieces tackle flag something

21:12

that something that with use it and and

21:14

i think they have fully humor one so universe

21:16

is a hybrid they're all one of the other that sourcing

21:18

solicitous ray ray allen then

21:20

you get down to what what are they

21:22

actually doing and some

21:24

of these documents including spreadsheets of a broken

21:27

there were terms they are broken broken

21:29

into sections this is bullying or

21:31

under raise racists subversive

21:34

self harm religion and grooming

21:36

rights and then you go through some

21:39

of those and the messages are

21:41

don't how your family member ah

21:44

can i get say photo or video

21:46

of you and they give these a little rank of how bad

21:49

they are and

21:51

, be used to moderate the chats a

21:53

in by block said the texture it's

21:57

so that's how the

22:00

specifically look for grooving

22:03

do i think what will will the documents more

22:05

show is just that this

22:07

is an insanely

22:10

complex com the motivation is too

22:12

because they have the in games they

22:15

have a user generated assets such

22:17

as you know people making

22:19

are making close it is user generated

22:22

assets of making their own

22:24

games and all

22:26

the spurs married

22:28

since content moderation the shoes

22:30

and somehow they have to be very very good

22:32

at doing all of them and you know that

22:35

there's a lot of crap from roadblocks i'm in the stuff

22:37

to you for posted on i i went back can

22:39

read that recently i think you been since in

22:41

service of we just thought swastikas

22:43

and like of are like nazis

22:46

symbolism you're lying on the around role

22:49

play servers yeah right

22:51

right exactly so we're we're we're gonna bring

22:53

that up as i that is that say

22:55

virtual worlds and then also potentially assets

22:58

as well and then presumably that sat in as

23:00

him he of sucking dumpster fire as well

23:02

right so that's gonna combination of all sense

23:06

you it but it's just insane because they

23:08

have all of his for the posters all of these different

23:10

types fans are thing

23:12

odin what the last thing i was a sound nice ass

23:15

on the tech size they've even gone into

23:17

using stuff like amazon's recognition

23:20

which is that's not the but wait his facial

23:22

recognition be salsa image recognition as well as

23:24

an easy to detect guns as also thinks

23:26

they are using bath in size

23:29

a basic see them as diverse

23:31

as well maybe even develop sort of their own object

23:33

recognition proof of concept says wealth

23:36

separate it is a masses

23:39

nick still only difference

23:42

i'm technologies and one

23:45

tell me about this case studies color

23:48

or one color case study tell

23:50

me won't histories and okay words i'm

23:52

tired listeners can tell

23:55

me about the

23:57

places where this kind of gets weird

23:59

and your

23:59

the

24:01

going into a strange gray areas or want to

24:03

know about the go to dragon ball

24:05

z christ church shooting

24:07

thing

24:09

yeah so i i mean i guess just

24:11

before the they had a

24:13

few of these mass shooting simulators

24:16

right which a little games

24:18

that people have maze or

24:21

, know sometimes not very convincingly

24:24

a to try to memorialize

24:26

will riff off or just

24:28

play around with famous

24:31

mass shooting been so there's the norway one in

24:33

a in that and they just taste the the christchurch

24:36

a one as well and i think they may have been m

24:38

some of us as well and then when it

24:41

came to some of these mass shooting

24:43

simulators they the the the

24:45

go in and they were with reviews

24:47

i'm a sometimes it gets journalists came to them and

24:49

show them and we know what

24:52

the staff were thinking because

24:54

we read the comments on a google

24:56

doc whether discussing what to do about

24:58

it and you know one goes in

25:01

and i think it's the christchurch one

25:03

and like he he goes into that there's

25:05

nothing really in the game that's

25:07

offensive itself is just the name so

25:10

you know i don't want to put a

25:12

a quality metric i'm ready massachusetts

25:15

simulators but ready far simulators the guy who was kind of bats

25:17

massachusetts bats simulated if you see what you mean like it wasn't

25:19

convinced it mean if you might that regardless

25:21

it's an incredibly bad look incredibly and

25:24

very shitty bright and know a nice thing

25:26

to having a platform so they just remove it but

25:28

they discussions going on in these

25:30

comments all of them trying to figure out how

25:33

and why they could remove the a one

25:35

point they say boy should we just put should text filter

25:38

up for the place in norway

25:40

where that mass shooting happens and

25:42

you know that would be overreach one of the

25:45

employees said because there'd be said same as just

25:47

blocking columbine or

25:49

new york or something like that well maybe they could do

25:51

that combination of a

25:53

norway and the date and

25:55

all slow norway bomb went off as well so

25:58

these are a rarity

25:59

difficult

26:00

conversation seen around and i guess

26:03

i would say this we've seen a loss

26:05

of internal documents about content motivations

26:08

a from other companies especially facebook

26:10

fans i would say

26:13

that here and did this

26:15

is a baby's embolization so is

26:17

it may not be entirely says these

26:21

documents robots is tackling the issue

26:24

much more honestly then

26:26

you see in some of the face but documents that

26:28

coming in and the being like we don't we

26:31

don't want this on our platform and we're going to find

26:33

a way to remove it which goes on to what you're saying

26:35

about a dragon ball z once there was another

26:37

must using simulator and it

26:39

briefly mentions db the dragon ball

26:41

z and they

26:43

try to argue with isis get it removed

26:45

from copyright grounds you know do we have a relationship

26:48

with tangles the weekend ghosts and say hey this

26:50

is all a single surprise us refills there

26:53

was just them discussing all these different tools a mobius

26:56

used to moderate

26:58

this massively

27:01

very them vibrant misses

27:03

us

27:04

getting this is interesting i'm gonna

27:06

read some of it verbatim for the audience here

27:08

so the way she said

27:11

a norwegian reporter have reached out said hey

27:13

there's disgraced heard simulator they go looking

27:15

for the can't find it defined others

27:18

one call one of your own named

27:20

go to vs christ church in

27:23

in in the comments cause this is an extremely crude

27:25

block he versions were without the name

27:27

you would know it's really simulating anything

27:30

it wasn't said but you can dress

27:32

up like goku from dtz and they give you

27:34

an ak you go into a building that

27:36

is only a single blink room with a few blocky

27:38

and pcs running around i would remove for copyright

27:41

violations at the least

27:43

though it it's

27:46

we had this whole discussion whole discussion on

27:48

the show about

27:49

looking at facebooks attempts to content moderation

27:52

looking at leaked documents that have come from them and

27:54

them just kind of looking at it and throwing up

27:56

their hands and sing we don't even know

27:58

what to do here

27:59

right in it's fascinating to see another

28:02

company whose primary audiences children's

28:04

people are obviously going to be much more interested

28:07

in content moderation when it comes to kids

28:09

i'm actually trying to tackle it they

28:12

don't or maybe they don't always get it right but

28:14

like as you said they don't want nazi stuff

28:16

in christchurch shooting stuff on the platform

28:19

and they're actively trying to get rid of it's the could

28:21

just let it be the wild west and they don't

28:23

yeah yeah when when we went for some of the face

28:25

for documents i hope i'm remembering

28:28

this right but you know there was one

28:30

that was talking about white supremacy

28:32

and white nationalism a source has a distinct

28:34

from there and he drew a distinction

28:36

in size i suppose they were saying but white supremacy

28:38

spaz but white nationalism

28:41

is okay and we're going to allow and i think

28:43

either include a link to lead a wikipedia pays

28:45

or something about sets off to we reports

28:48

about some elites it's worse than we covered

28:50

his face was eventually change that because

28:52

i think they realized how bad of a look he was so

28:54

they're having these very you know

28:57

hi mines is pseudo

28:59

intellectual discussions about and will since

29:01

since the white supremacy white nationalism

29:03

and then it ends up with you know a lot of white

29:06

, all over their platforms were assembled

29:08

lox the goings we

29:10

don't want this stuff on our platform we just go find a way

29:12

to remove it because we don't want my suit and simulators

29:15

on this smells of us answer completely

29:18

let them off let hook these the hook

29:20

are still on that they were still up for some time

29:23

and apparently there were multiple of them right so it's

29:25

not like they they solve

29:27

the issue but when it came up they they did

29:29

find a way to get rid of it and out in

29:31

a maybe the cynic would say well they're just doing

29:33

that because they can to get some bad pr yes

29:36

sure but silver discussions here

29:38

are more frank than i've seen elsewhere

29:41

are you don't want to indoor conversation with

29:43

an ethical reporting question something we've talked

29:45

about a couple times before on this program these

29:48

documents were illegally

29:51

obtained or they were obtained through criminal

29:53

means

29:54

it

29:55

the

29:56

the albania the hacker

29:59

the criminal record you get

30:01

you were gonna grabbing the most of the internet the

30:04

honey after a heckler didn't have a crime

30:06

the to be clever you didn't do the grinder

30:09

criminal behavior on jaycees part

30:11

hi

30:13

right the way they made it to

30:15

the internet is illegal when

30:17

you're a journalist even report on something

30:19

like this using these kinds of documents

30:22

like what is what are the ethical considerations

30:24

around something like this

30:27

it always boils down to basically one

30:29

question which is you know is it

30:31

in the public interest on up fans

30:34

whenever we went to roadblocks for

30:36

comments so , stories

30:38

and because we were trying to engage in of course we

30:41

obviously want to give them a chance to comments as much

30:43

as possible and as possible we got really

30:45

into the granular details of the documents

30:47

you know what we want to ask what is this spreadsheet

30:49

mean okay what what does this document

30:52

mean something like that and basically whenever

30:54

i went to them they would reply in

30:56

the their answer with since he always stars

30:59

or ends with these documents

31:01

were obtained by a criminal hackett

31:04

now that

31:06

is probably the reason i decided

31:08

to include or missiles caviar

31:11

it's in our peace in that you know robot

31:13

kept stressing this and lessons i put in parentheses

31:15

a multiple police as a public interest in

31:18

this material and warren's coverage because

31:20

it's the and today this month this month this bread

31:23

and butter for us this is everyday of what we do imma

31:26

yes hackers obtain stuff but

31:28

it's often in the public interest they do

31:30

a crime we don't and this material

31:32

that should be published , should be reported

31:35

on stickler for the blue leaks ah

31:38

data dumps you know they came out couple

31:40

years ago at this point the soda love interesting

31:42

stuff about about force of

31:44

america you could look at the

31:46

breach of hacking team to beat suffering

31:48

fisher that shows how private

31:51

surveillance mercenaries were being

31:53

used worldwide by what countries

31:55

including has been seen by me as be ice

31:57

we would know of we know if it was not for was

31:59

so

32:02

can we do this every single day so

32:05

no new for us as

32:07

, allude to buy to just wanted oh mister pushback

32:10

because robot kept bringing up because it's it's

32:12

not relevant for us what is relevant is that

32:15

this material should be

32:17

known because we think it's important to

32:19

understand how amount most he billion dollars

32:21

american companies will bend and sensors

32:24

platforms and to the chinese market or

32:27

the source of tools a multi

32:29

billion dollar company is going to try to used

32:31

to monitor grooming monitor mass

32:33

shooting simulators on his plus we

32:36

so rarely get a window into either

32:38

of those concerns and is in his company's

32:40

so and these companies house

32:42

the huge sway over our lives right leg work

32:44

we've stressed over and over again roadblocks

32:47

is pretty important to a lot of kids in

32:49

this country and so

32:51

that the more clarity around like how

32:53

that companies operating around these issues i think

32:55

is good

32:57

yeah i play hand and the

32:59

low they will be more hacks the

33:01

end of the materials as in the public access

33:03

know all of them will be in the public interest you

33:05

know and i would just the last year with

33:07

same as of course you know for example the

33:09

identity of the specific roadblocks

33:12

employees who is tax

33:14

and you know he looks harassed to be perfectly

33:16

honest this i see no interest

33:19

in publishing my that poor employee's name is

33:21

there's no reason to do that and which is why we

33:23

didn't spill they is in essence

33:25

her a presentation of robot six ten

33:27

census gonna have to

33:30

just can't make you want

33:33

skyn for coming under cyber and watching us to a complicated

33:35

topics if you like to the show

33:37

fleas are you will see it recorded

33:39

live please follow us a twitch dot

33:41

tv for such motherboard tv ah

33:44

next next couple weeks good very

33:46

interesting read have more terraform episodes

33:49

happened to catch that earlier today

33:51

when it was recorded live ah we will

33:54

be back next week with more stories about

33:56

a dangerous dangerous internet we all

33:58

visit cc thinking