0:00

Julie. Was from a small coastal

0:02

town, she spends her days on

0:04

the beach and hiking through nearby

0:06

trails Until in her early twenties

0:08

she began to experience some unusual

0:10

symptoms. At first it was

0:12

just some mild itching and slate read on her

0:15

skin. But. As time passed,

0:17

her symptoms quickly escalated into

0:19

severe allergic reactions. Painful.

0:21

Hives Waltz. It. Was

0:24

unbearable and nothing seemed to help. And

0:26

worst of all, she couldn't figure out what

0:28

was happening. All. She knew was

0:30

the her life had become miserable. Eventually,

0:33

she called for medical help. After

0:36

numerous tests and consultations, Julie got

0:38

the news. She. Did have an

0:41

allergy. Solar. Urticaria.

0:44

Julie. Was allergic. To. Late.

0:49

As creative prose and creative leaders, we

0:51

may not experience the same reaction the

0:53

sunlight that Julie does, but there is

0:56

a different kind of late that for

0:58

some of us can be just as

1:00

harmful to our health. The Spot in

1:02

late and whether you relish the spotlight

1:04

or run from it, the truth is

1:07

it can be a powerful tool for

1:09

good or a weapon of self destruction.

1:11

Elon Today show we shine a spotlight

1:13

on the spotlight. The. Role it

1:16

plays in our lives and how the

1:18

thrive inside and out of it's reach.

1:22

This is Daily Creative, a podcast for

1:24

creative prose who want to be brave,

1:26

focused, and brilliant every day. My name

1:28

is Todd Henry. Welcome to the show.

1:36

I think that the quality. Of

1:39

your life is in large part

1:41

determined by how you handle the

1:43

high stakes situations of your life.

1:45

That's Michael Port. He's no stranger

1:47

to the spotlight, professional speaker, other

1:49

of six books as well as

1:51

a professional actor. If you happen

1:53

to recognize him, you're not the

1:55

only one. For about a month

1:57

ago, stewardess comes up to me

1:59

out. plane and says, listen, I just

2:01

have to ask, were you on Sex and the City? I

2:04

said, the Secret Sex episode? I said, yes,

2:06

that's right. She goes, oh my God, I

2:08

knew it. Michael knows all

2:10

about life in the spotlight, both the metaphorical

2:12

spotlight and the literal one. For

2:15

him, it's inescapable. And the

2:17

reality is for all of us, there are times

2:19

where we can't escape the spotlight either, like it

2:21

or not. We all

2:23

have situations in our lives where we are or

2:25

we have to be the center of attention. Michael's

2:29

book, which I interviewed him about several years ago,

2:31

is called Steel The Show, and

2:33

it offers some helpful advice for how to

2:35

handle the spotlight well, starting with one of

2:37

the toughest challenges we face when standing under

2:40

the bright light, criticism. Look, I

2:42

have little interest in critics, right?

2:44

Because anybody can tear something down, the trick is

2:46

building something better in its place. That's

2:49

the thing. So when I write, when I speak, when I teach,

2:51

I try to do

2:53

my best to focus on here's a

2:55

better way. And here's a

2:57

great way to do it as opposed to a

2:59

better way than what everybody else is doing. Let

3:02

me tell you why these things don't work and why these things

3:04

are wrong. I think that's a habit that we start to get

3:06

into sometimes as creatives or as

3:09

teachers, rather than focusing

3:11

on here's an opportunity. Here's

3:13

something you can try. Here's another

3:15

way of looking at things, because I don't think

3:17

there's one way to do anything when it comes

3:19

to creativity. That's the point. It

3:21

is art. That is the point of it all.

3:24

And once we get stuck into a

3:26

particular methodology, particular framework, we start to

3:28

lose sight of what is possible. And

3:31

when we do become too married to

3:33

a methodology, we often start to become

3:35

a critic. And

3:37

I don't think it can be a critic and a performer.

3:40

I think it can be one or the other. I think

3:42

it's a choice. Let's just take something like

3:44

CrossFit, for example, this fitness craze. And people

3:46

either love it or hate it. And it

3:49

is such a strong brand because of its

3:52

extremeness. It's so extreme. And

3:55

so you have all these people who criticize it, and then

3:57

you have all these people who Absolutely love

3:59

it as a person. It's the greatest thing

4:01

in the world any So interesting

4:03

to me why people care that

4:05

much. Why? Criticize something else and

4:07

I don't do cross it's I have no no

4:09

skin in the game on this one. I'm those

4:12

using as an example why would you care so

4:14

much as it doesn't threaten your own methodology and

4:16

nice as it is because we all think advertise

4:18

were methodology and as a result. We.

4:21

Now criticized Other methodology said: we

4:23

don't see new ways of being,

4:25

new ways of doing things. New

4:27

opportunities. And. That's why I

4:29

think let's decide. Pesticides.

4:32

Won't be a critical performer. Plus it, he's been

4:34

allowed to criticize and. I think the

4:36

critics in your head. Get. Louder

4:38

and louder Because because you know if

4:40

you're doing it to others that it's

4:42

coming back on you, Anyone who's been

4:44

in the spotlight knows it's and open

4:46

invitation to criticism. Now I'm not going

4:49

to give you some trait gross thick

4:51

skin kind of advice and leader is

4:53

Michael. When. I think he's

4:55

getting at is the other side of

4:57

criticism that can be equally dangerous when

4:59

we wheeled are moment in the spotlight

5:01

to lob criticism as others. It's.

5:04

Not that we can never stand up

5:06

for our conditions and challenge opposing viewpoints.

5:08

Weekend and we should. It's

5:10

just that we need to ask ourselves why we

5:12

feel a compulsion to do so. Is

5:15

because we just love causing a stir

5:17

and getting some cheap attention? Is it

5:19

because deep down we're insecure. If.

5:21

So then we've been seduced by the

5:23

dark side of the spotlight. Look.

5:25

Here's the thing, I don't know about you,

5:28

but I've never read a great biography of

5:30

a critic of never even seen one. We

5:32

write about people who contribute and the spotlight

5:34

can be a great place to do so.

5:37

But. It can also be very. Very.

5:39

Uncomfortable discomfort is is feeling

5:41

that many of us have

5:44

and sometimes if we recognize

5:46

that discomfort, Is simply an

5:48

opportunity to do something we haven't done

5:50

before and if we care more about

5:52

the results than approval. if we'd see

5:55

if our desire is stronger. Than

5:57

our fear. Then. will allow

5:59

ourselves to be comfortable with that

6:01

discomfort. Because look, I'm in

6:03

this book launch period now and you're an

6:06

author, you know what it's like. It's just

6:08

a mad dash from one thing to the

6:10

next. And even though it's

6:12

my sixth book, it still makes me

6:14

uncomfortable because I don't know

6:17

if everybody's going to love it. I don't know how

6:19

well it's going to do. I don't know if it's

6:21

going to hit the list. You know, the future is

6:24

uncertain. You just cannot predict the results. And

6:26

so that makes me a little bit uncomfortable.

6:28

But it signals to me that there's an

6:30

opportunity to do everything in my power to

6:33

make those things happen. And if I am

6:35

uncomfortable, I have to ask myself why. Why

6:38

am I uncomfortable? Is it because the

6:40

amount of responsibility associated with this is

6:42

so significant? Well, maybe.

6:44

And then I have to ask myself, well,

6:47

how do you grow as a leader? You grow

6:49

as a leader as you can handle

6:51

more responsibility, the more responsibility you can handle,

6:53

generally the more successful you become. Or

6:56

is it because I'm afraid that

6:58

I think this is my magnum opus and

7:00

people won't like it? Well,

7:02

there's an opportunity to do everything

7:04

in my power to write the best book in the

7:07

world that I can possibly write and get it out

7:09

there in the best way possible. It's all an opportunity.

7:12

It's just the willingness to be comfortable with

7:15

your discomfort. So

7:18

many people spend their entire life trying

7:20

to avoid tension at all costs. They

7:23

think it's inherently bad, but tension is

7:25

how growth happens. Without tension

7:27

and release, your body won't grow. You

7:30

can't build muscle. You can't grow intellectually.

7:32

And Michael has two specific pieces of

7:34

advice for those of us who want

7:36

to face the discomfort of the spotlight

7:38

well. Number one, don't

7:41

try to be good. A colleague of

7:43

mine was asked to be on a

7:45

big broadcast TV program when her book

7:47

came out and she called me up for antics and said, I had this

7:49

is the biggest opportunity I've ever had. What should I do

7:51

to be good? I said, you can't be good.

7:54

And there was silence on the other end of the phone. I

7:57

said, no, no, it's not that you're not good, but

7:59

you can't. If you go to do this to

8:01

try to be good, because then you're

8:04

self-absorbed, and anything you're self-absorbed as

8:06

a performer, then you are

8:09

hyper-conscious, self-conscious, and self-conscious

8:11

performance is rarely

8:14

very connected performance. I said,

8:16

what you can try to do is be helpful. If

8:18

you're helpful, the audience may perceive

8:20

your work as good. That's

8:23

really the best that you can do. The question

8:25

is, what's the promise that you're making when

8:28

you go to try to be helpful? And you need

8:30

to be helpful in regards to that particular promise. She

8:34

really did quite well. She did really,

8:36

really wonderful. I think this idea of

8:39

getting out of your own self-absorption

8:42

and neuroses, and will I

8:44

be good? Will

8:46

they like me? Will they not like me? Is

8:48

an essential component. I think that we should remember that we

8:50

don't need to be different to make a difference. The

8:53

other thing that will help you is to

8:55

actually know what you're doing, because

8:59

we rarely rehearse

9:02

for high-stakes situations, like

9:05

a speech. Rehearsal

9:07

to most people before they give a speech is

9:09

putting slides together, and then making

9:11

some notes on what they want to talk about, and then using

9:13

the slides as their notes, and

9:16

maybe running through it in their head once or twice in

9:18

the morning before they give the speech. I

9:22

have such reverence for the stage and for the people

9:24

in the room. If you have, let's say it's only

9:26

100 people in the room, it's an hour of time

9:28

for each one, there's a thousand hours of

9:30

time that you've been given. For me,

9:33

great performances require real

9:35

rehearsal. One

9:38

of the things that I do, as you know in the

9:40

book, is I do a whole chapter just on how to

9:42

rehearse, because most people have never been taught how to rehearse.

9:45

How would they know how to rehearse? And

9:47

then sometimes they think, well, if I rehearse, I'm going to get stiff,

9:50

because I'll be constrained by whatever I

9:52

rehearse. And that only happens when

9:54

you've done a little bit of rehearsal. But once you've done

9:56

a lot of rehearsal, then you know your material so well,

9:58

you know how you're going to perform. perform so

10:01

that when you walk on stage, you can forget

10:03

it. You can let it go. You can imagine

10:06

you know nothing. And then what happens is it

10:08

comes to you in the moment organically and honestly,

10:10

and it might not be exactly

10:12

as you performed, but it will be so

10:15

close to the way, or excuse me, exactly as

10:17

you rehearsed, but it'll be so close to the

10:19

way that you rehearsed that you will kill

10:21

it. And so that kind

10:23

of rehearsal is so important. And

10:26

even when I work with A-list speakers, you know,

10:28

people who are making the biggest money on the

10:30

circuit, they don't know how to rehearse. They've

10:33

been rehearsing live in front of the audiences for

10:35

years, so they've gotten better. And

10:37

their material is usually pretty strong, but they

10:39

often are afraid to create new speeches because

10:41

they don't know how to do the rehearsal.

10:43

They have to just go do it in

10:45

front of audiences that are paying them. And

10:47

that is anxiety provoking because if it's

10:49

new and you're getting paid for it, you know, you

10:52

got to kill it. So the rehearsal is so important. And

10:54

then you're not as nervous. You're really not

10:56

that nervous when you know how to do something. It

10:59

becomes easier and easier just like anything else you do.

11:01

And I think performance is something that we must rehearse.

11:04

Michael's book is chock full of fantastic

11:06

advice for navigating the challenges that come with

11:08

being at the center of attention. But

11:11

what if you're someone either by choice

11:14

or by circumstance who finds yourself just

11:16

outside of the spotlight's reach, the

11:18

person behind the person? After

11:21

the break, we explore life in the

11:23

shadows. Is obscurity a sign

11:25

of failure? And the supporting

11:27

cast members still lead a fulfilling life. Stick

11:30

around. Hi

11:40

everyone, this is Todd Henry. My new book,

11:42

The Brave Habit, is available now wherever books

11:44

are sold in paperback, ebook and audiobook. I

11:46

think it's my favorite book I've ever written.

11:48

And a lot of people are telling me

11:50

it's their favorite book as well. I think

11:52

you're going to like it. So check it

11:54

out wherever books are sold or at thebravehabit.com.

11:58

Now on with the show. Sure,

12:03

everyone's heard the story of Apollo 11.

12:05

You know, you got Neil Armstrong, Buzz

12:07

Aldrin, one small step for man, one

12:09

giant leap for mankind. But

12:12

a lot of people have never heard

12:14

of Michael Collins, who is the third

12:16

astronaut on that mission. That's

12:18

Tim Schur, author of The

12:20

Secret Society of Success and current

12:23

CEO of David Novak Leadership, a

12:25

nonprofit whose namesake comes from the

12:27

former Yum! And CEO, more

12:29

on that later. But for now, back to

12:31

Michael Collins and the moon landing. So

12:34

Michael is the guy that Ubers Neil

12:36

and Buzz to the moon. So

12:39

he drops them off so they can do

12:42

all the things they had to do on

12:44

the moon's surface while he actually

12:46

stays back in the command module, orbits

12:49

them in something like 26 times until

12:52

those guys are ready to be picked up and

12:54

brought back to Earth. They even

12:56

get a phone call from the president while

12:58

they're on the moon. Michael

13:00

Collins is not even mentioned. Crazy.

13:03

But what I love so much about

13:05

the story is when Michael gets back

13:07

to Earth and sits down with the

13:09

press after a very successful mission, he

13:12

does not do what most of us would

13:14

probably have done. Feeling a little resentful

13:16

about the fact that you made it all the

13:18

way to the moon and yet you didn't get

13:20

to walk on it, I probably

13:22

would have said something like, whoa,

13:25

it would be nice to actually walk on the moon. But

13:28

Michael is such an inspiration because of

13:31

how he does respond.

13:33

He actually talked about how content

13:35

he was to have had one

13:37

of those three seats. Why

13:40

Michael is such an inspiration is the

13:42

world that we live in today communicates

13:44

this idea that if you want to

13:46

be successful, you have to step into

13:48

the spotlight, climb the ladder, be the

13:50

boss, be the person that

13:53

everybody is talking about. But Michael shows

13:55

us a very different story in a

13:57

different way of living, which is can

13:59

You. Be happy. Even.

14:02

If you're not the one who walks on the moon,

14:04

Can. You find contentment and success

14:06

and your own life. If.

14:08

You are a player on the

14:11

team, contributing to a larger whole.

14:13

And. I had just come to believe that. Success.

14:16

Can be found? Maybe not

14:18

even and us changing our

14:20

role. Getting. Into a higher

14:23

position but simply by just seems in

14:25

our mindset and looking at the work

14:27

that we do a through a little

14:29

bit of a different lands and I

14:32

think Michael says the say a different

14:34

way to view success. Tim coined the

14:36

term for the mindset that pervades or

14:38

culture Today he calls it the spotlight

14:40

Mindset. I would define the spotlight mindset

14:43

simply as this unhealthy desire for attention

14:45

and recognition. So the spotlight mindset is

14:47

the saying that we are all like

14:49

lured by right in the moment. When

14:52

Michael could have sat with the press

14:54

and been resentful, Would. Have

14:56

a say I comparison is a deep a joy

14:58

ride site. That. Is this

15:00

spotlight mindset? an accent? So.

15:03

What we have to do is realize

15:05

when the spotlight mindset is popping up

15:07

in our lives. What are those moments

15:10

when maybe were pulled into. A.

15:12

Maybe negative way of thinking which is

15:14

like. This should be all

15:16

about me. Why is nobody talking about me?

15:18

Why is that person? The have all sorts

15:20

of followers on social media and I don't.

15:23

Yeah. This unhealthy. a desire for

15:25

attention of recognition. But. I'm

15:27

so sorry to tell you there

15:29

is never going to be a

15:31

day when the spotlight mindset is

15:34

totally disappears from your life like

15:36

this is the thing that is

15:38

going to be around because. It's.

15:40

Just human nature. We. All

15:42

want to be seen, heard. We want

15:44

to feel like we matter. But.

15:47

I believe that in those moments

15:49

when we can be trapped into

15:51

that unhealthy way of thinking these

15:53

kind of negative mental spirals, there

15:55

are ways out. i

15:58

sure hope so because if i'm being To be honest,

16:00

this is all starting to sound a bit, well, unsettling.

16:04

In his book, Tim writes this, No

16:06

matter how much you do, how excellent your work

16:09

ethic is, and how important your role is, you

16:11

will likely never be fully recognized for

16:13

it. No one notices.

16:16

For many of us who are creatives and

16:18

performers, that's pretty much the description of our

16:21

own personal hell. When I was

16:23

working at Apple, I had the great opportunity

16:25

to work under both Steve Jobs and Tim

16:27

Cook. Steve was the

16:29

CEO, but then he passes away.

16:32

The person who takes over is Tim

16:34

Cook. So at the release of the

16:36

Apple Watch, Tim is being interviewed

16:38

on national television, and David Muir

16:40

asked him, is this the

16:42

moment for you, the moment of your career at

16:44

Apple? And if I am

16:47

Tim Cook in that moment, I'm probably

16:49

using as an opportunity to get a

16:51

little bit of the credit, right? Let

16:53

people see some of the work that

16:56

I had been responsible for over the

16:58

last couple of decades in the shadow

17:01

of Steve Jobs. Let people know, I'm

17:03

the man for the job, we're in

17:05

a great spot, let me show you

17:07

what we can do. But that's not

17:09

at all how Tim responds. So

17:11

is this the moment for you, the moment

17:14

of your career at Apple? Tim actually says,

17:16

well, it's a moment for Apple. I don't

17:18

really think about myself that much. And

17:21

it reminds me of this plaque that

17:23

sat on Ronald Reagan's desk when he's

17:25

president. And it says, there is no

17:27

limit to what a man can do or where he

17:30

can go if he doesn't mind who

17:32

gets the credit. So what

17:34

Tim Cook models for us in that

17:36

moment is humble confidence, which I

17:38

think is the sign of, you know,

17:40

characteristics of any great leader. The

17:42

humility to understand that he can't

17:44

do this alone. He

17:47

didn't create the Apple Watch. The team

17:49

created the Apple Watch. There's probably hundreds,

17:52

if not thousands of people who had

17:54

contributed to that moment

17:56

in time happening. But he

17:58

also has the confidence to... know

18:00

that he knows what he's

18:03

capable of. He doesn't need to remind us

18:05

all about it or to try to take

18:07

the spotlight from that moment. He's able to

18:09

deflect and give credit to the team. And

18:12

so you can just see how

18:14

easily he could have responded differently,

18:16

but he took the step in

18:18

the direction towards the opposite side

18:20

of the spectrum of the spotlight

18:23

mindset, which is living in

18:25

the way of the secret society. And

18:27

so this group of people that

18:29

I call the secret society of

18:31

success is the

18:33

group that has shown me kind of

18:36

new ways of thinking and behaving that

18:38

is more along the lines of how

18:40

I want to show up and live.

18:43

And I think Tim models for us in

18:45

that moment, what a step in

18:47

the direction towards living in the way the

18:49

secret society can look like. Okay, okay, this

18:52

secret society stuff sounds all well and good,

18:54

but when do we get to the part

18:56

where we talk about number two's getting their

18:58

due? Surely we can't be suggesting

19:00

that the solution is just to suck it up,

19:02

can we? You know, the publisher, you

19:05

know what they really wanted me to do? They

19:07

wanted me to write a three-step plan.

19:10

Here is how you get the recognition that you

19:12

deserve for the work that you do. That's

19:15

what everybody wants, right?

19:18

We want to know that if we do this, this

19:20

is on the other side. I

19:22

couldn't write that book because

19:24

it's not real. And in

19:26

fact, like, those are the

19:29

hard days, right? When we're like busting it,

19:31

but nobody's recognizing us. And some days we

19:34

feel like our lives don't even matter. So

19:37

what I'm trying to give you is like, what

19:39

do you do on that day? You know,

19:42

what do you do on that day? Those

19:44

are the days when you go

19:47

back to what is success actually?

19:50

Is it how much revenue your business

19:52

generated this year? No,

19:55

It's not. So What I want you to

19:57

do is I actually want you to think

19:59

about like... What? Do you

20:01

want? I. Don't have you been to

20:03

a funeral lately? but you should go to

20:05

one because it gives you some perspective. I.

20:08

Just went to a funeral and actually add

20:10

me. Asking. A lot of

20:12

questions about what really matters in my

20:14

life and the dedication to my book

20:16

says to Judson in L, that's my

20:19

six year old and my four year

20:21

old I say Made you learn to

20:23

live in the way of the Secret

20:25

Society. Look. I don't think that

20:27

life is about all these things that people

20:30

tell us. it's about. I

20:32

think that what it's about is. Finding.

20:35

Ways to use our guess. Our.

20:37

Talents, our passions, All.

20:39

These things that we have. To.

20:42

Help other people. Is. That

20:44

going to give you a big platform as

20:46

you helped somebody else when? I don't know,

20:48

but I think on my healthy days I

20:50

don't care. So. I can't

20:52

give you the three steps. There's gonna

20:54

be days when you're gonna wonder. If

20:57

what you're doing matters and like what's

20:59

wrong, am I on the right track,

21:01

it's like you're gonna have those days.

21:03

I hope that you also have the

21:05

opportunity to look around and see that

21:07

you are contributing to something greater than

21:09

yourself if you are helping somebody else.

21:11

I think that that actually in the

21:13

long run. Is. What a

21:15

meaningful life really is all about. And

21:17

I hope. That. That is

21:20

what you did experience in some

21:22

capacity. Ten. Tells a lot

21:24

of stories of leaders who have chosen to shun

21:26

the Sirens call to the spotlight. Even when their

21:28

role demands that they stand at the center of

21:31

attention. And. They've experienced a

21:33

deep and lasting fulfillment in their work

21:35

as a result. David. Know

21:37

that coot him works with now is

21:39

remarkable example. Know that

21:41

grew Yum brands from four billion

21:43

to thirty two billion in revenue

21:45

and one million to five million

21:47

employees during his tenure as Ceo,

21:50

and he did it while creating a

21:52

culture of recognition where everyone felt like

21:54

they mattered in fact if you go

21:57

to his office in louisville kentucky you'll

21:59

see photos everywhere of david Novak CEO

22:01

alongside employees who were caught in

22:04

the act of making stuff happen.

22:07

He filled up the walls so much

22:09

so that they started putting these pictures

22:11

on the ceiling. David is

22:13

modeling a behavior of the secret society,

22:15

which is recognizing others. And

22:17

so there are a lot of other things

22:20

that the secret society does, but when

22:22

we're tempted to get all the credit

22:24

or to step into the spotlight or

22:27

the traps of the spotlight mindset, the

22:29

secret society kind of takes a step in

22:31

the other direction and we're giving credit to

22:34

others, we're recognizing others. And if there is

22:36

a common denominator of what it looks like

22:38

to be in the secret society, it

22:40

is this idea of helping others win. Ambition

22:43

is not bad. If you think about a concert,

22:45

you need the person standing in the center of

22:47

the stage for the whole thing to work. And

22:50

I have no problems with the spotlight. The

22:52

spotlight is not the problem. The problem I

22:54

have is when people try to tell me

22:57

that the only one role that matters is

22:59

the spotlight and that we should all try to be

23:01

staying in the center of the stage. What

23:04

about the sound person that loves their job?

23:07

Are you going to tell me that they

23:09

should stop being a sound person? Right now,

23:11

one of your potential customers is trying to

23:13

decide between you and the competition. Now, the

23:15

other guys are crystal clear about what they

23:17

do and how they're different. You? Not

23:20

so much. Who do you think is going to win?

23:23

Hi, I'm Josh Scott. I write and produce

23:25

this show with Todd. When I'm not telling

23:27

stories here, I'm helping companies like yours craft

23:30

a brand story that makes sense. If

23:32

you're tired of being overlooked because people

23:34

still don't understand what your company does,

23:37

why it matters, or how you're different, let's

23:39

talk. Go to gotclarity.com

23:41

to simplify your message and

23:43

spark new growth. That's gotclarity.com.

23:46

Now, back to the show. Person

23:51

in the nation in fact tried to... No,

23:54

that's crazy. What about

23:56

the person that just loves ushering

23:58

people to their seats? Are you telling

24:00

me that that role doesn't matter? But society

24:02

preaches that there is only one role that

24:04

matters, and it is the person seen in

24:07

center to stage. And I'm here to

24:09

tell you that that is not true. After

24:13

the break, we get some practical advice from

24:15

Richard Heitner, former worldwide deputy

24:18

chairman of Sachi and Sachi, on what

24:20

it's like to lead from the shadows.

24:23

What is the role of Sachi and Sachi? What is

24:25

the role of Sachi and Sachi? What

24:28

is the role of Sachi and Sachi? After training

24:30

as a lawyer, I found myself working in

24:32

an advertising agency, Benton and Bowles, back in

24:34

1982. And I

24:36

spent most of my career in advertising, climbing

24:39

through the ranks and up the rungs

24:41

of the ladder to being a chief

24:44

executive of an advertising agency, and then

24:46

several advertising agencies. I joined Sachi and

24:48

Sachi as its European chief executive for

24:50

Europe, Middle East, and Africa. So

24:53

I am hardwired to have been a number

24:55

one. And more

24:57

recently, about six, seven years ago, took

24:59

the rather controversial step of what people

25:02

would say was stepping to one side

25:04

or even stepping down to become

25:07

a deputy. And I've written

25:09

a book about that, Consolieri, Leading from the

25:11

Shadows, to put to rest the

25:13

idea that number two is

25:15

a bad place from which to operate.

25:18

Richard Heitner has literally written the book

25:20

on what leadership can look like, and

25:23

he's a very agnostic of the spotlight. In case you didn't

25:25

catch it, the name of his book is Consolieri. I

25:28

chose that kind of provocative term actually,

25:30

because there was a meeting in

25:33

my boss's office, Kevin Roberts, worldwide

25:35

chief executive, Sachi and Sachi, between

25:37

two particular creative egos, as it

25:39

happens. And I remember him trying

25:42

to settle some kind of disharmony

25:44

between those two characters. And I was holding the

25:46

meeting as well, and I thought maybe I was

25:48

in trouble too. Anyway, he

25:50

ran this great meeting at the end of

25:53

which, peace had broken out, and

25:55

he said, right, off you go back to London. And Richard, I'd

25:57

like you to be my Consolieri on this.

26:00

And I thought, that's an interesting project.

26:02

And I went to do a little

26:04

bit of research about conciliary and what

26:06

that meant. And of course, it has

26:08

its roots in the illegitimate mafia organizations.

26:11

And I'm using it in more

26:13

legitimate fields. And I

26:15

use this as a plural to explain

26:17

and to badge together

26:19

all those people who operate behind

26:22

the scenes in a leadership capacity.

26:24

So assistants, deputies, advisors, vice presidents,

26:27

all those people who we might

26:29

call, in old fashioned terms, number

26:31

twos, but who I believe make a

26:33

significant contribution both to the leaders of

26:36

organizations, the finely accountable leaders, the A's,

26:38

as I call them in my book,

26:41

and the leadership endeavor. So I've got

26:43

rid of the numbers. I think numbers

26:45

are iniquitous. As soon as you say

26:47

someone makes a great number two, really

26:49

what you're implying is they'd make a

26:51

lousy number one. And you're implying some

26:53

sense of lack of ambition or failure.

26:55

I've replaced those number ones and number

26:57

twos with A's, those who make

26:59

the final calls, the accountable final decision

27:01

makers, and the C's, all those

27:04

conciliary, operating from lots of positions

27:06

from which they lead. I,

27:08

for one, love the shedding of the number

27:10

one, number two language. I've long

27:12

felt like, especially in creative teams

27:15

and organizations, ranking leaders this way

27:17

only exacerbates the problem of promoting

27:19

brilliant creatives out of the work

27:21

they love and into

27:23

roles where they wither. There's a

27:25

story I tell in the book

27:27

about the Indian cricketer Sachin Tendulkar,

27:29

who was one of the great

27:31

all-time test batsmen. And for

27:33

years and years, people said to him, you must

27:35

be our captain. You must be our captain. They

27:37

insisted on making him the captain,

27:40

even though he kept saying, I really don't

27:42

want to do this. I'm not sure this

27:44

is for me. He ended up being one

27:46

of the worst test cricket captains for India

27:48

of all time, and finally was allowed to

27:50

relinquish that and go back to being a

27:52

brilliant batsman. It's not for everybody,

27:54

this chief executive, this organizational head role.

27:57

Statistically, there can only be one of them anyway.

27:59

There are many. many more opportunities to lead

28:01

and have joy and to use

28:04

different skills, that's a critical thing,

28:06

to use different skills in leading

28:08

and the C-rolls demand different kinds

28:10

of skills. Thinking in terms of

28:12

A's for those who shoulder the

28:14

ultimate accountability and C's for

28:16

those who are conciliaries to the A's opens

28:18

up a whole new way of looking at

28:20

what it means to lead. But despite

28:23

their differences, Heitner says that there are

28:25

some things that A's and C's share

28:27

in common. All A's and C's

28:29

have to be credible, they

28:31

have to be competent, we have

28:34

to trust them. Can I trust this person

28:36

to lead me in the endeavor? Whether you're

28:38

an A or an C, you have to

28:40

have that, that's the kind of the base

28:42

levels of respect and trust you need. You

28:44

also need, if you're going to be any

28:47

kind of leader, to be oozing emotional intelligence.

28:49

You need to know yourself really well, your

28:51

own limitations really well, you need to know

28:53

the effect of your behaviour on other people.

28:55

What distinguishes the C's are the kind of

28:57

skills that mean that you're bringing new thinking

28:59

to the Chief Executive or the A.

29:02

You are using your persuasive skills,

29:04

your influencing skills, your ability to

29:06

fix outcomes and shape outcomes. All

29:09

of these things often without any

29:11

overt authority conferred upon you. Whereas

29:14

for an A, you are the A, you're

29:16

given the status, you wear the captain's

29:18

armband, you can make things happen through sheer

29:20

dint of your status. As a C,

29:22

you give up that status, you give up

29:25

a lot of recognition and you have

29:27

to make things happen more informally and that

29:29

requires a softer skill set, but nonetheless

29:31

just as skillful. This is such

29:33

a great point because we so

29:36

often mistakenly assume that those who

29:38

aren't A's landed there because they

29:40

couldn't quite cut it. They were

29:42

somehow less skillful. You're so right,

29:44

it is a cultural hurdle because the popular

29:46

culture insists that the winner takes all, that

29:48

we lord our bosses with all

29:51

the credit. And of course, in many ways they

29:53

deserve it because they get the toughest gig. They

29:55

really are having to put up with the punitive

29:57

glare of the media. usually

30:00

the first to walk the plank, although often

30:02

the C gets to take a bullet too. But

30:05

I think that the critical ways are for

30:07

the C's to get used to the idea

30:10

of sacrifice, that you can't

30:12

have it both ways. You can't basically

30:14

avoid that final accountability and still expect

30:16

to get all the glory. You

30:19

have to accept that there is a

30:21

nobility and honor in being the A.

30:23

So you have to sacrifice most of

30:25

the credit. You probably have to give

30:27

up some of the greater rewards. But

30:30

the quid pro quo is you get to

30:32

operate a more private life. You probably get

30:34

to lead a life of more balance. You

30:37

certainly get the opportunity to develop other

30:39

people, to see other people succeed. And

30:42

you should give yourself a pass on the

30:44

back. By the way, I think the A

30:46

every now and then should be giving the

30:48

C much greater recognition. I think great A's

30:51

perfectly well understand that all of us need

30:53

some kind of recognition and joy in our

30:55

working lives. And they do say thank you.

30:57

But it is a more private pleasure. And

30:59

if you're not comfortable with that, then you

31:01

probably won't make a very effective C. Richard

31:04

has some very pointed from the trenches

31:07

advice for how A's and C's can

31:09

thrive alongside one another in creative organizations.

31:12

And there are several ways. First of all,

31:14

you have to get down and define the

31:16

relationship. It sounds very American, but right at

31:19

the beginning when you cast for this reciprocal

31:21

relationship, you need to own up to the

31:23

C what your own weaknesses are in order

31:25

that the C can compensate for those. You

31:28

need to define how you want

31:30

that C to liberate you, educate

31:32

you, anchor you in the truth,

31:34

deliver outcomes for you. You

31:36

need to give that C time and space,

31:38

the oxygen to breathe, the time to think,

31:41

the space in which to do great work.

31:43

You need always, of course, to

31:46

give that C your total full

31:48

unconditional support. I talked to the

31:50

people behind Sir Alex Ferguson. He

31:52

didn't say thank you a great deal. Maybe

31:54

to Mike Phelan, his assistant manager. He said

31:57

that five times in six years. But Mike

31:59

Phelan knew. every step of

32:01

the way he was going to get

32:03

Sir Alex's support. That's true in any

32:05

AC relationship. You enjoy that unconditional support.

32:07

You need feedback. You need access to

32:09

that A. I've known A's who don't

32:11

give you their full attention when you

32:13

do ask for their attention,

32:15

and that's distracting and it's demoralizing.

32:17

So the C doesn't need to

32:20

soak up too much of that A's time.

32:22

If the C's affected, they're doing a lot

32:24

of that work without the A even having

32:26

to know what's going on, but the A

32:28

must give that person access

32:30

to him or her and time

32:32

and real, real through this detention.

32:34

No looking over the shoulder to see when

32:37

the next meeting's about to happen or the

32:39

queues of people waiting to have their problems

32:41

resolved. Total focus. My own boss,

32:43

Kevin Roberts at Sarge, he does that for me

32:45

incredibly well. I don't demand a lot of his

32:47

time, but when I have it, I know he's

32:49

full on me and that's, he puts the blinkers

32:52

on. Everything else goes out of the window. So

32:54

there's a lot the A can do and they

32:56

also, by the way, have to look out for

32:58

the hazards of C-ship. The C's

33:00

can get a little bit self-important. They can

33:02

feel a bit more intellectually superior. They

33:05

can get carried away with their own importance in

33:07

the organization. And at that point, the A has

33:09

to clip their wings and remind them. But I

33:11

think just as there are hazards

33:13

for the C, there are hazards for the A.

33:15

The A can, over time, stop listening. The

33:18

A can, over time, start to

33:20

look at every situation as a

33:22

firming their world view and stop

33:24

being open to other ideas. And

33:27

the A can also develop a kind

33:29

of fearfulness around them that means that

33:31

people won't speak up. So

33:33

for the C, the

33:36

need is to make sure that

33:38

you're constantly demanding that the A

33:40

listens very carefully. And that means

33:42

being incredibly courageous. Now, there

33:44

are many C's who've spoken the unspeakable.

33:48

The top civil servants I've

33:50

spoken to are amazing at

33:52

not just scoping out what's going

33:55

on and scoping the context. They're

33:57

also very good at saying, here's

33:59

what I'm going to hear. is what you need to do. And if I

34:01

were in your shoes, this is what I would do. That's what

34:04

allegedly a Jeremy Haywood would do and has

34:06

done for three successive prime ministers. So

34:08

I think the C has to keep that

34:11

A grounded in reality, grounded in truth, has

34:13

to be willing to give them robust feedback.

34:15

And, and again, because it's

34:17

a reciprocal relationship, the A has to

34:19

be open to that. Bad A's breed

34:22

bad C's and vice versa. If

34:25

you've been inside or around creative organizations for

34:27

any length of time, you've no doubt seen

34:29

the dynamics between A's and C's play out

34:31

for better or for worse. It

34:34

helps to always keep in mind that at the end of

34:36

the day, it all comes down to how we handle the

34:38

spotlight. It's a powerful force

34:40

and it never goes away. And if

34:42

you're at the early stages of your career

34:45

or perhaps embarking on a new course toward

34:47

organizational leadership, Keitner has one bit of advice

34:49

to help you be more effective. The

34:52

advice would be take a look at

34:54

your life ahead as

34:56

one long adventure and

35:00

therefore fill that

35:02

life with as many opportunities to

35:05

lead from different positions as you

35:07

go. If you aspire to being the

35:09

complete leader, definitely make

35:11

sure you get plenty of opportunities

35:13

to lead as an A to

35:15

understand what it takes to

35:17

be the finely accountable, tough

35:20

decision maker. But indulge

35:22

yourself, even if you are a

35:24

hardwired A achieving, power

35:26

hungry person, indulge yourself in many

35:28

opportunities to be the C because

35:30

you will learn to stretch different

35:32

leadership muscles. In other words, if

35:34

you want to be a more

35:36

complete leader, gain experience being both,

35:39

no matter how uncomfortable it may

35:41

be. It's just one more opportunity

35:43

to get comfortable with discomfort.

36:00

Dot out there. You'll also get daily

36:02

coaching to help you go from creative

36:04

pro to world class leader. Gilly

36:07

Creative is produced by Joshua Got. he's

36:09

also a story architect. My name is

36:12

Totally Thanks so much for the.