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Tech News show is made possible

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and Jeffrey. A

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good. To have new patrons will

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go on in every make him feel at

1:40

home. Or this episode of Dns The Verge

1:43

is Sean Hollister helps us break down Entails:

1:45

attempt to stay in the Ai Pc game

1:47

A I scientists don't want to be silenced

1:49

about risk and Instagram attempt to force you

1:51

to watch as. this

1:56

is the daily tech news for

1:58

tuesday june fourth two thing I'm

2:01

Tom Merritt and I'm in

2:03

Los Angeles. And I'm Sarah Lane

2:05

and I'm at Studio Animal House. They're all sleeping.

2:08

I am the show's producer, Roger Chang. And

2:10

joining us, Senior Editor and founding member of

2:12

the Verge, Sean Hollister, welcome back. Hi.

2:16

It's good to have you, man. Hi.

2:19

That's the sound of someone who's been covering

2:21

Computex for the rest of his

2:23

life. Yeah,

2:25

good to have you with us, Sean. No, it's not

2:27

bad at all. I was nearly going to go and

2:29

then we decided not to. Yeah, that would have been

2:32

fun because of what? It's in Taipei, right? Oh,

2:34

yeah. I went in 2012. It was

2:36

a blast. It's been 12

2:38

years since and I was looking forward to it. Well,

2:41

we are going to talk about the Intel news

2:43

out of that with Sean in just a second.

2:46

Also, we should let you all know, Meta announced

2:48

its Connect 2024 event will take place September 25th

2:50

and 26th. So

2:53

put that on your calendars. Let's see what's

2:56

in the rest of the Q-tip. Samsung

2:59

has added two features to the 32-inch

3:02

Odyssey OLED G8 gaming monitor,

3:04

thanks to the built-in NQ8 AI

3:06

Gen 3 processor. The monitor can

3:08

now use models to

3:10

upscale content and games to near 4K when

3:13

you're using the built-in TV

3:15

and gaming hub apps. There's also

3:17

a pulsating heat pipe. Yep,

3:20

that's what it's called. That was not announced with

3:22

the rest of the monitor's details back in January,

3:24

but this will help prevent burn-in. The

3:26

32-inch Odyssey OLED G8 is available now for

3:29

$1,299. The

3:32

Raspberry Pi is offering

3:34

an AI kit. Indeed,

3:36

it's finally here. Halo's

3:38

Halo 8L M.2 accelerator

3:40

is powering it, adds

3:43

13 tops of power to

3:45

a Raspberry Pi 5 microcomputer, and draws

3:47

less than 2 watts of power and

3:50

can be passively cooled. This would

3:52

let you run some smaller models like coding

3:54

assistants or image editors on your Raspberry Pi.

4:00

held talks at the end of last year

4:02

with China Mobile to bring Apple TV Plus

4:04

to China. No U.S. streaming

4:06

video service is currently available in China.

4:08

If the deal were to be accepted

4:10

China Mobile would offer Apple TV Plus

4:13

for a monthly fee to its customers

4:15

and reportedly split revenue with Apple. The

4:17

deal would only likely be for set-top

4:19

boxes, not phones. There

4:22

was a breach at the banking company Santander

4:24

and another one affecting 650 million accounts

4:27

on Ticketmaster that were both

4:29

linked to a cloud storage

4:31

platform called Snowflake. So

4:34

Snowflake engaged third-party security

4:36

companies, Mandiant and CrowdStrike,

4:38

to investigate. They

4:40

now have reported the results of their

4:43

investigation. They found no evidence of vulnerabilities

4:45

on the Snowflake platform or

4:47

compromised Snowflake personnel accounts. It

4:50

appears that the breach may

4:52

have been achieved by accessing

4:54

Snowflake accounts from clients who

4:56

did not have multi-factor authentication

4:59

on. Microsoft

5:01

365 Education is the target

5:03

of complaints from NOI, the

5:06

N-O-Y-B, that's a privacy watchdog organization

5:08

based in Europe. They're the

5:10

ones who single-handedly stopped there from being a

5:12

user data sharing agreement between the U.S. and

5:14

Europe for more than a decade. Right

5:17

now, it's a request for the

5:19

Austrian Data Protection Authority to investigate

5:21

some vague terms, the

5:23

possibility that Microsoft unfairly pushes

5:25

compliance onto schools, and a

5:27

tracking cookie that appears to

5:29

exist without consent. Quick

5:32

quiz. Anybody remember what NOI-B

5:34

stands for? I

5:37

heard this from Rob Dudwood on Daily Tech

5:39

Headlines today. None of your business. NOI-B.

5:44

I actually looked it up just to

5:46

make sure that I had it spelled right and I

5:48

hadn't thought about what it meant. Intel

5:52

unveiled its Lunar Lake platform at Computex.

5:55

That is its chip that

5:57

is CoPilot Plus compliant. those

6:00

kinds of laptops in this autumn. This

6:02

is just six months after the previous

6:04

gen Meteor Lake. Intel promises up to

6:06

14% faster CPU performance,

6:09

50% better graphics performance, and

6:11

60% better battery life. Sean,

6:14

you've been digging into this directly with the

6:16

folks from Intel. What are the things you

6:18

found most important about Lunar Lake? Well,

6:21

everybody's interested in this being, you know, the

6:23

new AI chip to go up against the

6:26

ones from AMD, Nvidia, Qualcomm, the ones

6:28

that are going to be in these

6:31

co-pilot plus PCs. But at

6:33

next year, nobody's going to care about that

6:35

because it will be table stakes that all

6:37

of these chips will have this

6:39

amount of AI generative processing

6:42

or more thanks to a

6:44

little co-processor in Intel, in

6:46

AMD, in Qualcomm chips in

6:48

your laptop. Everybody's going to

6:50

have this. So that part

6:52

doesn't matter quite as much as the

6:54

fact that Intel has to finally do

6:57

something about Apple. They have to do

6:59

something about ARM chips, ARM

7:01

chips using a different instruction

7:03

set than the x86 chips that

7:06

Intel and AMD have been building

7:08

for, you know, all of our

7:10

lifetime in computing. A

7:13

few years back when Apple introduced those

7:15

M1 processors and said, hey, we're going

7:17

to build our own ARM chips, all

7:20

of a sudden we're like, here

7:22

is a tremendous amount more battery

7:24

life from a laptop. The processing

7:26

is good. It doesn't need as

7:28

much cooling. And it's beyond time

7:30

for Intel to do something about

7:32

that. This is Intel coming out

7:34

swinging there. Yeah, I thought you

7:36

did a great job in the article on the Verge

7:38

sort of breaking down the comparison,

7:40

the simplicity, what's going on

7:42

in these chips. And

7:45

a lot of it sounded very much like an

7:47

M series chip, right? There's

7:49

integrated RAM, there's a simpler die.

7:53

Walk us through a little bit of the highlights of that.

7:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So last year Intel

7:59

did for... or what would call its

8:01

biggest architectural shift in 40 years. And

8:04

what that broke down to was we

8:06

are building our chips more like smartphones

8:08

in almost every way. For

8:11

many, many years, smartphones have built

8:13

their chips. They call them system-on-chip

8:15

in that you have all the

8:17

different components of the system, the

8:19

Wi-Fi, the Bluetooth, the cellular connectivity

8:21

of the phone, the processing, the

8:23

graphics. All of them are little

8:25

building blocks on the same die.

8:28

Intel started doing that last year, but

8:30

like you said, six months later, they've

8:32

thrown out a lot of that

8:35

to try doing it again because what they did

8:37

last time didn't quite work, their first step, but

8:39

it didn't quite work. The

8:41

first time they said, we're going to have

8:43

tiny cores, we're going to have medium cores,

8:45

and we're going to have big cores in

8:47

addition to our graphics cores, in addition to

8:50

our AI cores, we're going to put all

8:52

these cores together and we're going

8:54

to put the right loads in the right place at the right

8:56

time. They built some Windows

8:58

scheduling with Microsoft so that they

9:00

could theoretically run most of your

9:02

apps on these tiny, tiny, tiny

9:04

cores so that unless

9:06

you were doing something big with

9:09

your computer, you could save a lot

9:11

of battery life by keeping your tasks

9:13

on this low-power island. The

9:16

low-power island still exists this year, but

9:18

they have ditched those tiny cores entirely.

9:20

They could not keep the tasks on

9:23

that low-power island the way they want.

9:25

They were eating up too much battery.

9:28

They said, we're going to make some better medium

9:30

cores. They called

9:32

them the efficiency cores, the E cores. They've been

9:34

around for a while, but the

9:36

ones this year are so much

9:39

more powerful and potentially so much

9:41

more efficient. We would know for

9:43

sure if Intel ever labeled the axes on its

9:45

charts, but it doesn't. They

9:47

are so much more powerful and so much more efficient that

9:50

not only do they deliver I

9:52

think it's two times more

9:55

performance, up to

9:57

four times more performance than the tiny

9:59

cores do. last year, but

10:01

they also can deliver more

10:03

performance at the same power

10:06

as the P-cores, the performance

10:08

cores in last year's

10:11

chips. So today's E-cores more

10:13

powerful than last year's P-cores

10:16

at the kinds of lower clock speeds you typically

10:18

run a laptop at. Yeah, and so

10:20

that containment that you're talking about with Windows still

10:22

exists, but it just keeps them on these efficiency

10:24

cores that are at par with last year's power

10:26

cores. So most of the time, you'll

10:29

get that great battery life, it sounds like. Yeah,

10:31

we're not clear about the technical details,

10:33

the difference between last year,

10:36

the scheduler saying, oh, we think these apps

10:38

should be here in the low power cores.

10:41

And now we should move to the high

10:43

cores. And what they're now calling containment zones,

10:45

which is like we are keeping them on

10:47

the E-core. We are keeping Microsoft Teams will

10:50

run almost entirely in your E-cores

10:52

now. And so when you're doing

10:55

your video call, at least with

10:57

Microsoft's video calling solution, they

10:59

say you'll get 35% battery life out of that, which,

11:01

you know, before they were heating

11:04

up the entire chip, it was using up a

11:07

certain amount of power. Integrated

11:09

RAM is going to be new for Intel

11:11

users. People with Macs and

11:13

ARM processors in general have

11:15

gotten used to that. But this is only going to have

11:17

16 and 32 gigs of RAM. And that's all

11:20

you get, right? Yeah, this might be

11:22

the biggest shift for anybody who's who likes

11:24

to tinker with PCs, or build your own

11:26

PCs. If you expect to do that kind

11:28

of thing with your laptop, if you expect

11:30

to open up a hatch on the back

11:33

of your laptop and add additional memory sticks,

11:35

that is not happening with lunar like at

11:37

all. Now, again, this is not unusual for

11:39

smartphones, smartphones have had memory

11:41

on sitting on top of the

11:43

chip for many, many years now.

11:45

But now Intel is doing that

11:47

too. There's two chunks of memory

11:49

that'll physically sit below the CPU

11:51

that has all the

11:54

compute tiles and different tiles in it. The

11:56

memory will now be part of the same package that

11:58

the year heatsink goes. on top of. And

12:01

so if you want more than 32 gigabytes

12:04

of memory, you're out of luck. Thankfully, you get

12:06

a minimum of 16, whereas some

12:08

of the competition still ships laptops with 8

12:10

gigabytes of memory. Get 16 at a minimum.

12:12

Yeah. And Arrowhead Lake is coming. That's more

12:15

of a desktop PC. But they

12:17

say if you want to do upgradeable RAM, look for

12:19

that. I thought it was

12:21

just for desktop, but Arrow Lake

12:23

will be laptop and

12:25

desktop. They planned to

12:28

do that with Meteor Lake

12:30

too. There were Meteor Lake

12:32

desktop parts. That is Meteor Lake being last

12:34

year ships. They got canceled. They did not

12:37

come out. So folks on

12:39

desktop had to move directly to

12:41

a different system. But now Lunar

12:44

Lake may be exclusively for these thin laptops,

12:47

Arrow Lake, laptop and desktop. Yeah. And thank

12:49

you. It's Arrow Lake, not Arrow. Arrowhead is

12:51

water. Arrow Lake is the chip. There

12:55

is an Arrowhead Lake. Yes, exactly. So

12:57

yeah. Before we let you go, how

13:00

do you think this stacks up with

13:03

AMD's announcement with the Ryzen AI 300

13:05

announcement from yesterday? I

13:09

believe AMD is going to be

13:11

in a similar place as Intel

13:13

when it comes to that AI

13:16

co-processing. I

13:19

imagine that

13:22

the Intel chips could be more powerful, but

13:24

I feel like there's something that Intel isn't

13:26

telling us. I don't know what it is.

13:28

When I spoke to their marketing

13:31

guru, Rob Hallock, Intel said it, their

13:33

marketing guru, Rob Hallock, he told me,

13:35

I think his quote was that he

13:38

expects Lunar Lake laptops to be the

13:40

tippy top of the mountain. That's

13:42

what he said, tippy top of the mountain

13:44

when they ship later this year. And so

13:46

he's, when he says that, I verified with

13:48

him that he meant that he believes these

13:51

will be more performant, have better battery life

13:53

than AMD's Strix Point, which is those AI

13:55

300 chips, and Qualcomm. be

14:00

better than Qualcomm. But Intel

14:02

is not letting people touch lunar lake

14:05

yet. It has not shared

14:08

crucial things like how fast

14:10

will these chips be in terms of

14:13

gigahertz? Because if,

14:15

for instance, if you take for granted

14:17

that they're telling the truth that it will be

14:21

16% faster CPU speed, clock

14:23

for clock, compared

14:26

to mid-ear lake, it is

14:28

16% faster clock for clock, meaning if they

14:30

are at the same clock speed. But if

14:32

lunar lake runs at a slower clock speed

14:35

than mid-ear lake, you may not see

14:38

a 16% improvement in CPU performance.

14:40

It's possible that these get

14:43

better battery life, better AI, but maybe

14:45

don't have faster performance than last year's

14:47

chips. And I would say that for

14:49

many, many years now, I have

14:51

not felt like buying a new processor

14:54

for an x86 computer has made

14:56

my computer faster. It

14:59

feels like it's only keeping up with whatever the

15:02

increases in software. Yeah, yeah. Well,

15:05

you know, the lunar lake chips

15:07

are coming in Q3. Arrow

15:10

Lake's supposed to be in Q4. Lunar

15:13

Lake has an MPU with 48 tops. If

15:15

you're keeping score, that makes it co-pilot plus.

15:18

Wi-Fi 7, Bluetooth 5.4, two Thunderbolt 4 ports, just

15:21

as part of the chip set. Everything

15:24

else, every laptop will have 200-volt ports

15:26

now. The theoretically, left side, right side,

15:28

you plug in your cable, you'll get fast charging end

15:30

data, no matter which lunar lake laptop you buy.

15:32

That right there, something to celebrate, I

15:34

think. Yeah, yeah, indeed. We'll definitely go

15:37

read Sean's full article. He's got all

15:39

the details at The Verge. And

15:41

before we go, anything else you wanna tell folks about, Sean?

15:45

Yeah, I'm good. Thanks for having me. Go

15:48

check it out, theverge.com. John Hollister, thank you

15:50

so much. Have a great one.

15:53

Thanks, John. Well, Instagram

15:55

confirmed it is testing unskippable

15:57

ads in its feed, various

15:59

use. have come across the test. It

16:02

has a countdown timer letting you know how

16:04

long before you can resume scrolling. Instagram,

16:07

while confirming that that test was

16:09

actually real, didn't give any more

16:11

details on the test but said, hey, you know, if

16:13

we end up making this permanent we'll tell you all

16:15

about it someday. Anyone

16:18

besides an advertiser who would like

16:20

this to become permanent do you

16:22

think, Sarah? No, no. I don't

16:24

think anybody wants this. I also

16:26

think people are used to this.

16:29

Anybody who spends time on YouTube and doesn't

16:31

pay for YouTube Premium is

16:33

going to have at least a few seconds

16:36

of ads, even skippable ads. You still have

16:38

to sit through a few seconds of them

16:40

and in some cases, you know, you

16:42

don't even have the options to skip.

16:44

So this is not abnormal

16:47

and I really don't... I

16:49

mean, I was

16:51

about to say I don't fault Instagram for

16:53

doing this. I mean, it's as

16:55

a user, nobody wants this.

16:57

But it's sort of like, okay, Instagram

17:00

has a few options. You either make

17:03

people pay for an ad-free version of the

17:05

service, which could

17:07

possibly be a thing. You do

17:10

this sort of like, hey, you can't get

17:12

away from the ads and sometimes you can't

17:14

scroll past them and that's just part of

17:16

the deal. Or what's

17:19

the alternative that... because

17:21

the company wants to make money. That's

17:23

the bottom line here. So how do

17:25

you annoy

17:27

the users but not enough for the user to just

17:30

say like, okay, I don't want to hang out here

17:32

anymore. Would you partner

17:34

with popular creators? Take a

17:36

cut of the creators cut.

17:39

I mean, that's already happening. But you

17:42

know, you get to the point

17:44

with a platform

17:46

like Instagram and what else

17:49

do we expect? Yeah, I

17:52

didn't expect unskippable ads in Instagram because

17:54

it is contrary to the user experience.

17:56

It's one thing in a video where

17:59

we're all... used to pre-roll ads for

18:01

YouTube to say like guess what, you can't

18:03

skip the pre-roll ads anymore. It

18:06

is another thing in a system that's been

18:08

around for 10 plus years to be like,

18:11

we're built on keeping you scrolling, we

18:13

are now going to stop you scrolling. I

18:16

think that's risky. Like I totally get what

18:18

you're saying, you're absolutely right, they wanna monetize

18:20

and maybe the solution is, they'll be like,

18:23

hey, for $5 a year you can have

18:25

no ads in Instagram. Although Instagram

18:27

is one of those weird places where people seem

18:29

to kinda like the ads sometimes. Like I actually

18:31

saw people saying, you know, I use Instagram ads

18:33

and I've bought lots of things from them, but

18:35

I will stop paying attention to them if they

18:37

do this. It's almost like

18:40

people don't wanna get rid of the ads,

18:42

they like them the way they are in some

18:44

cases. Some of you are probably reviled by that

18:46

notion, but I personally,

18:48

I'm not emotional about it, but I will

18:50

say I go to Instagram as

18:52

sort of like a side diversion. And

18:55

if I'm scrolling through and suddenly it's like, oh,

18:57

you have to wait 20 seconds for this ad,

19:00

I'll just go somewhere else. I

19:03

won't go away mad, I'll just go away.

19:05

You know what I'm saying? Right,

19:07

yeah. Yeah, no, I'm with

19:09

you on that. I do think

19:12

Instagram is sort of

19:14

unique in the sense that, yes,

19:17

so many things that are Instagram ads

19:19

are things for sale, easy to buy,

19:21

look at the photo sets or a

19:23

video of the cute boots that you

19:26

were looking at a week ago because

19:28

we know where you've been, that kind

19:30

of stuff. It is,

19:32

it works on Instagram. I

19:34

have thought, I mean, not that many

19:36

things based

19:38

on Instagram ads, but it's definitely,

19:41

it captures your attention. If

19:44

nothing else, especially when Otis the

19:46

dog is on his Instagram, obviously

19:48

not me because it's his Instagram

19:50

account, but he gets served up

19:52

lots of, you know, like dog

19:54

bed and dog toy and cute

19:57

dog hoodie ads. And

19:59

I mean, It's all I can do not

20:01

just be like click so easy. Yeah, right

20:04

just one click But

20:06

but at the same time when

20:08

Instagram ads first rolled out and I think that

20:10

was what are we talking like? 2016

20:13

yes, I'm around there. It was it was right

20:15

around the time that Instagram introduced

20:17

the algorithmic feed which at the time those of

20:20

us who had been sort of right or die

20:22

for the platform were just Like this is the

20:24

worst and now we all just got used to

20:26

it. You know, it's not going anywhere. It's everywhere

20:29

But at the time I you know, I'd say it

20:31

hide ad Every ad

20:33

I said hide I'd be like,

20:35

yeah, we'll just run out eventually. No, that's

20:37

not what happened They just came back

20:39

in force and now I just I just deal with

20:41

them. Yeah. Yeah, we're all used to it now Yeah,

20:44

but yeah that whole sort of you

20:46

can't scroll without watching the ad That

20:50

tends to anytime that happens

20:53

to me in any similar form where

20:55

I'm sort of forced to deal with

20:57

an ad I'm just like la la la

20:59

la do not care Yeah, I

21:01

am fighting you now and you

21:03

know, it's just not a great experience.

21:05

I suspect That there's

21:07

a principle of the internet that more people complain

21:09

about a thing then will actually act on it

21:12

So I think that is worth taking

21:14

into account here But there

21:16

is a principle of it. I've seen many

21:19

people I think storied squirrel just said it I've seen

21:21

lots of other people say well if the ads are

21:23

good, you won't skip them anyway, so why force people

21:25

to watch them? And that

21:27

is a principle that if it were a hundred

21:30

percent true, there would never be unskippable

21:32

ads, right? Apparently unskippable

21:34

ads are effective because the advertising

21:36

world wants them and that's

21:39

why Instagram is testing it To

21:41

be fair to Instagram. They're testing

21:43

it. They're seeing does this cause

21:45

people to stop scrolling? And

21:48

if it does they won't continue with it and

21:50

they'll be able to tell their advertisers. Yeah, here's

21:52

the numbers We did a we did a search

21:54

and it doesn't work on our platform. That's kind

21:56

of what I'm hoping selfishly happens But

21:58

you know what if it doesn't doesn't stop people

22:00

from skipping away. If I'm wrong and

22:02

I'm like, you know what, even though

22:05

it's unskippable, I don't skip away. If

22:07

they're fine-tuned the exact right amount

22:09

of time for an ad on

22:11

Instagram to be unskippable before people do

22:14

close, we're probably gonna

22:16

be stuck with it. I

22:18

also, you mentioned something like $5 a year to

22:21

not get ads. I mean, if it was really that low,

22:23

I'd be like, yeah, of course, it's like $5 a month.

22:27

In this world where people are paying $20 a month for

22:29

Netflix, Instagram's gonna have to be really cheap

22:32

if all you're doing is taking away the

22:34

ads. Exactly, but it also, and

22:36

again, this is

22:38

completely different from the hoaxes that

22:41

go around every so often where they're like,

22:43

all right, Facebook is gonna make you pay.

22:46

Yeah, yeah. He's like,

22:48

no, meta, Facebook, WhatsApp,

22:50

anything in the meta

22:52

universe, they

22:55

are not going to force you to pay

22:57

for their product. They're going to force

22:59

you to pay for the version of

23:01

the product that you want, possibly,

23:04

but yeah, we're definitely in the

23:06

testing phase right now. And Larry in

23:09

Atlanta asked, will Instagram charge advertisers to

23:11

make their ads unskippable? Yes, yeah, they'll

23:13

be able to charge more. They'll be

23:15

able to charge a higher CPM,

23:17

as they call it, if an ad is unskippable,

23:20

right? That's the idea. I mean, imagine being in

23:22

the marketing room where you figured out

23:24

the perfect slogan, which is at the end of the

23:26

ad? Like, no, people need

23:28

to see the whole ad. We all worked

23:30

very hard on that. The advertiser believes that

23:33

the ad will be more effective if it's

23:35

unskippable. That's why they want it. And if

23:37

it turns out that that's true on this

23:39

test, then Instagram can charge more for it.

23:41

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

23:44

Well, it's been an exciting week

23:47

at ComputeX already. And next week

23:50

is no different. Apple's Worldwide

23:52

Developers Conference, WWDC, is next

23:54

week. And Apple Vision Show

23:56

is on it. Each

23:58

week, Eileen Rivera and talk all

24:00

things Apple while also keeping an

24:02

eye on the competition as well.

24:05

We want to know what everybody's

24:07

doing in the space. Do join

24:09

us at applevisionshow.com. Hi,

24:16

this is Janice Torres from Yoquiero Dinero.

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than two dozen current and former

25:54

employees of OpenAI, Google's DeepMind, and

25:57

Anthropic signed a letter posted at

26:00

righttowarn.ai called a right

26:02

to warn about advanced

26:05

artificial intelligence. So the

26:07

URL is very apropos. Seven

26:09

of the 26 signees used their name. The

26:11

rest were anonymous. The letter was

26:13

also endorsed by A.I. pioneers Yoshua

26:16

Benjio, Jeffrey Hinton and Stuart

26:18

Russell. The letter called

26:20

on advanced A.I. companies to

26:22

commit to four principles, allowing

26:24

employees to anonymously raise concerns

26:26

about A.I. risks without fearing

26:28

retaliation of being sued for

26:30

violation of confidentiality agreements. The

26:32

letter specifically called for the

26:35

protection of trade secrets and

26:37

intellectual property when raising concerns

26:39

in four specific categories. So

26:41

specifically, no prohibitions on disparagement

26:43

of a company over risk related concerns.

26:45

So if I work

26:48

for a company or otherwise know

26:50

about something that the company is

26:52

doing, I don't have to

26:54

worry about legality. A process for

26:57

anonymously raising concerns to company boards,

26:59

regulators or appropriate independent

27:01

organizations. Kind of piggybacking

27:03

off of step one, but same

27:05

idea. Number three, support for a

27:07

culture of open criticism. We

27:10

should all say how we feel. Number

27:12

four, promise to not retaliate for raising

27:15

risk related concerns in public if all

27:17

other processes have failed. Yeah,

27:19

so this is this is this is tricky because

27:24

if you are a lawyer

27:26

and I've worked

27:28

with many great lawyers who've expressed that

27:30

this is often the way lawyers work,

27:33

you tend to say, let us

27:35

protect against all possible eventualities. Let's

27:37

set the line as far away

27:40

as possible from from us getting

27:42

sued. And so that

27:44

disparagement thing that you were talking about

27:46

in that first point is

27:48

one that they will do when they are giving

27:51

someone severance pay, for example, or

27:54

giving someone stock options. They'll say you you

27:56

will get these options. Granted, you will get

27:58

the severance pay if you agree. that you

28:00

will not disparage the company in any way

28:02

for the next whatever five to ten years.

28:05

That's boilerplate. I've

28:07

signed one, Sarah signed one, Roger signed

28:09

one, you know, we've all gone through

28:11

that. I've signed more than one. Yeah,

28:14

exactly, right? And so what

28:16

the lawyer is doing there is saying we don't

28:18

care what the disparagement is, we're just going to

28:20

set the line out there as far as possible

28:22

to avoid that damage, right? What

28:24

these folks are saying is we get that. And

28:26

we're, and they say in the letter, we

28:29

don't want people to reveal intellectual property, we

28:31

don't want people to reveal trade secrets, but

28:34

if they're concerned, legitimately

28:37

concerned about any kind

28:39

of harm, and they're very broad

28:41

here from imminent things like bias

28:44

or prejudice to existential

28:46

threats to humanity, right? They're like,

28:49

whatever the legitimate harm they're concerned

28:51

about, they should have a pathway

28:53

to do it. And an NDA,

28:55

a confidentiality agreement, a non-disparagement

28:57

agreement, shouldn't prevent them from

29:00

warning people about serious

29:02

risks. It's all going to

29:04

come down to like, okay, but who gets to define what

29:06

a serious risk is? Right. In

29:09

the letter specifically, speaking

29:11

of serious risks, the

29:13

letter, Sainese said, we

29:16

also understand the serious

29:18

risks posed by these technologies.

29:20

These risks range from the

29:22

further entrenchment of existing inequalities

29:24

to manipulation, misinformation, the

29:26

loss of control of

29:28

autonomous AI systems, potentially

29:30

resulting in human extinction.

29:35

So yeah, not mincing words here. And it's

29:37

not as if this letter was

29:39

written saying humans are about to

29:41

become extinct, and these companies need to shut

29:45

down immediately. Not at all. There are a lot

29:47

of people working in this field who

29:50

care very

29:53

much and who know what they're talking about

29:55

and have worked in various systems that

29:57

are creating AI systems that they're not. the

30:00

rest of the world will then be using. And

30:03

if there is an issue, we

30:06

should be able to voice that issue for

30:08

the good of humankind. Yeah. There's

30:10

some pretty respectable pioneers in AI. Jeffrey Hinton

30:12

is the one who actually stepped down from

30:15

Google because he wanted to be independent to

30:17

shine light on these kinds of risks. And

30:20

they're saying not there are

30:22

problems. I think a lot of people are going to

30:24

look at this that way. They're saying if

30:27

there are problems and there will

30:29

be some problems of all manners

30:32

of levels, right

30:34

now there's no way for people to

30:36

alert folks outside of their

30:38

immediate manager. And essentially what they're saying

30:40

in this letter is we don't think that's good enough because

30:43

there is a financial interest and a

30:45

stock investor pressure to err

30:48

on the side of not revealing

30:50

a risk that could cause a

30:53

damaging event to

30:55

happen. And they're saying we

30:57

need to work on a process that

30:59

allows people to do whistle blowing if

31:02

things are risky. That doesn't mean they're

31:05

saying there are risks right now, but

31:07

they're saying the possibility is there and

31:09

there's no path for someone to warn

31:11

everyone about it that doesn't go through

31:13

people who have a vested interest in

31:15

not warning people about it. Well,

31:18

Tom, knowing, you know, having

31:21

read the letter and I think

31:23

some very valid points were brought

31:26

up and I understand what

31:28

the goal is here. How

31:32

much do you think this is going to

31:34

change what OpenAI is doing at its next

31:36

board meeting, for example? OpenAI

31:38

was the only one that responded to this.

31:41

And they said we have a hotline that

31:43

people can call anonymously if they are concerned

31:45

about something. We're very

31:48

responsible. Trust us. A

31:50

hotline? Yeah, for an internal employee. They do. They

31:53

have a hotline that you can call. Oh, for

31:55

an internal employee. Yeah, for an anonymously. But you're

31:57

warning someone within OpenAI and that's kind of beside

31:59

the point of this. This is saying if they

32:02

go to a regulator, if they go to a

32:04

journal, a responsible journalist, they

32:06

shouldn't be retaliated against. It's the

32:08

start of a conversation. It's not

32:11

necessarily a conversation that's going to go anywhere.

32:13

Anthropic and Google have not responded, at least

32:15

that I have seen as of this recording.

32:19

But it is definitely trying to put some

32:21

pressure on this and it's going

32:23

to need someone else to pick up the

32:25

baton, at least on the regulatory side, if

32:27

not on the independent agency side, to put

32:30

pressure on the companies to say you need

32:32

to create something like this, something akin to

32:34

what Meta does with its oversight board for

32:36

something much less potentially

32:38

risky, social networks in

32:40

my opinion. AI I don't think

32:42

is dangerous right now but certainly

32:45

has the potential to be used

32:47

in dangerous fashions. I support

32:49

everything in this letter the way it

32:52

was written for sure. Yep, yep, yep.

32:54

For a site rather than hindsight. Indeed.

32:56

Well patrons, stick around for the

32:58

extended show Good Day Internet. We're

33:01

going to talk about the fact that scientists

33:03

at Cambridge have developed an extra thumb for

33:06

humans to use. That's right. You want three

33:08

thumbs? Stick around. We'll tell you how. No,

33:11

wouldn't you have four thumbs? Oh, just

33:14

the one on each hand and then yeah.

33:16

Can't wait to hear more, Tom. I love

33:18

thumbs. Why not? Why not? Who doesn't? Yeah,

33:21

just a reminder you can catch

33:23

the show live Monday through Friday

33:25

at 4 p.m. Eastern, 2,200 UTC.

33:27

You can find out more at

33:29

dailytechnewsshow.com/live and we're back to it

33:31

all again tomorrow. Scott Johnson joining

33:33

us. See you then. The

33:41

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