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at waterford upstart not

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nobody will come in to the best

0:54

in true crime podcasting this

0:56

is true crime tuesday i'm tim dennis

0:59

the really interesting show for you

1:01

today we're in talk a little bit about

1:04

redemptions , dead redemption

1:06

and if it's possible when comes

1:08

to nature versus nurture nurture

1:10

i'll play a little bit about what mean by that

1:12

when we talk about this book this the

1:15

book we're talking about as the decision to kill

1:17

a true crime stories of teenage

1:20

killers and the mother who the

1:22

him he a book is written

1:25

by less lead zillion

1:27

or i'm sorry leslie gilly area

1:29

i'll get that right by the end of the so it's

1:31

a it's a wonderful name and or did that right

1:33

by the time we did the time the show and

1:37

i was fascinating read this

1:39

weekend as it's tennis at home with me little

1:41

bit has to do with a

1:43

a young man in the year nineteen

1:45

eighty six by the name of dwayne will talk

1:47

to a lovely little bit about story and

1:51

how the windows

1:53

an awful thing that eventually

1:55

when some in jail and has to deal

1:57

with what we now ago

2:00

it would say is a bit of a

2:04

personality disorder to put

2:06

it mildly , will

2:08

get the official diagnosis here and we talked

2:10

lazily i'm

2:12

, to just

2:14

can't stop or quicken ended

2:17

and let people know that when

2:19

we were first starting to crime tuesday's

2:22

we were on am eleven thirty the

2:25

twin cities new stock and one

2:27

the program directors and twin cities new stock

2:29

and really was ,

2:31

of our our biggest supporters

2:33

when we were on am eleven thirty

2:36

unfortunately over the weekend andrew passed away

2:38

the and are we want to dedicate today's show to

2:41

and really who are was

2:43

, of the program directors when he first saw

2:45

that we were on air on ammo and

2:47

thirty said does why exactly

2:49

are you on our air we're paranormal

2:52

show with the true crime components

2:54

and didn't understand why we're on our

2:56

one on his aired didn't get it

2:59

it i was wondering why we

3:01

were on at that time night

3:04

from nine midnight monday through

3:06

friday and then know site

3:08

will do you actually think you're beating dr

3:10

laura do you actually think for your beating any

3:12

, other big time radio shows and

3:15

sure enough enough he

3:17

opened up his his ratings and

3:19

on the computer there and does

3:22

open it up for both of us to look to their

3:25

we were we're beating the

3:27

program beating front of us which was dr laura

3:30

and we're beating her handle though

3:32

where he was surprised and shocked

3:34

when first came into his job to see that yes

3:36

we were beating the programming that was on

3:39

on am eleven thirty and

3:41

then then made in his to believer he didn't

3:43

doubt the numbers that were there fars

3:46

news talk went he ,

3:48

that at that point paranormal

3:51

programming to cry programming could

3:53

even beat new stock programming and

3:55

andor was and firm believer in for that

3:57

having for open mind and having that believe

4:00

and then getting firmly behind us though

4:03

was one of his great attributes and

4:06

not only that but just having a a

4:08

warm smile and and having

4:10

friendly word and and getting behind

4:12

you was one the great things about andrew

4:14

lisa rest in pre pc

4:16

andrew we

4:18

know that does they'll be radio

4:20

station on other side's had program and

4:23

be looking forward to having is there too provide

4:25

some laughs and in the for you

4:28

to the the

4:30

there for other people on the other side because

4:33

i your work is not done nicer the

4:35

end of will be happy to see you we get

4:38

but continue on with the program now the decision

4:41

kill was the name of the book a true crime

4:43

story of a teenage killer

4:45

in the mother who loves him let's

4:47

bring in at this point or author

4:49

in our guests leslie gilly

4:51

airy leslie hello how are you

4:55

i'm doing great camera and nice to

4:57

be here thanks for inviting me well,

4:59

well thank you for being your let's get to to know know you a little bit

5:01

first before before we launched into into the the book tell

5:03

us a a little little bit first about you

5:06

and about how you got into into

5:09

the the true crime john run how you he got into well

5:12

writing about you cry

5:15

well this particular book is

5:17

my first book so i don't long history

5:19

as potter and the reason

5:22

i came to brightest birds

5:24

is a friend of mine her name shreve

5:27

we're and i hadn't

5:29

met her back in nineteen eighty six

5:31

and lived and

5:33

few miles from her

5:36

or got be pretty good friends and then we moved

5:38

out of the area and i didn't see her too

5:40

often that in

5:43

two thousand and sixteen i

5:46

had chance to be at her house yeah

5:48

and that she told me

5:50

that she had always had

5:52

desire to have her story told

5:55

and what i knew about sheree that had

5:57

happened during that time that i wasn't

6:00

contact with her her

6:02

son had murdered

6:05

her husband and

6:07

she continued she continued

6:10

a relationship with him of

6:12

sorts form a number

6:14

of years and she felt that that stories

6:17

from the time dad the

6:20

murder took place and throughout

6:22

the number of years later that

6:25

she had had to tell that she sells

6:28

the people would benefit by but

6:30

she had never had way

6:32

of documented so at that point

6:35

she asked me if i would be willing

6:37

to great the story

6:40

for her and write the book and

6:42

that you started our journey

6:45

together

6:47

in an interesting journey at that you know

6:49

there's there as i went

6:51

through the book this past weekend

6:53

the idea there a lot of things

6:56

in his book that i'm surprise

6:59

me kind of shocked me you know is the

7:01

book really takes place in the in the seventies

7:03

and and in disease early

7:05

to mid eighties and really in time

7:07

where i came of age too so can relate to

7:09

lot things in the book in the in the

7:12

time where dwayne who's sheree

7:14

son i came

7:16

up and and i thought to myself well you

7:18

know a lot of these memories i i can remember

7:20

i can't remember the times were doing

7:23

, up in in to me

7:25

this this lot of the things that dwayne

7:27

may looked at as an affront

7:29

to him really

7:32

aren't that unusual i mean it can

7:34

seems like he hit a we have led charmed

7:36

life it

7:39

in our waterways sure bed teenagers

7:43

often think get

7:45

a certain time certain their lives dead it's

7:47

not so charm they want things to be different

7:49

they wanna do things their own way make their

7:51

own decisions and of course

7:54

most of us are familiar with the conflict

7:56

becomes during those

7:58

years and the parents

8:00

have their idea of what's

8:03

appropriate diane duane

8:05

had his idea and

8:08

the problem with that

8:11

situation was dad

8:13

drugs ended up becoming involved

8:15

and twain's lives and

8:18

that exacerbated are ready

8:20

a difficult situation

8:23

before we get into story too much here

8:27

know you'd said even though this was really

8:29

your first delving into the true

8:31

crime genre

8:34

we're talking before we got on air it

8:37

was liters are you have a few paranormal

8:39

experiences which you know the other

8:42

two days of week that we do the show we delve

8:44

into the paranormal i'm wondering if

8:46

you would would you would grace us with the paranormal

8:48

stories that you have before we

8:50

really get into the decision

8:52

to kill would would you tell us little bit about the

8:55

paranormal experiences event sure

8:59

i'm

9:00

i think it's always kind the interesting i

9:02

don't normally share these stories

9:04

unless i men a situation

9:06

where other people happen to

9:08

mention something and then i'd say

9:11

raised my hand and say oh no

9:13

i had story and or

9:15

what happened to me was on

9:17

was probably the

9:19

early eighties i was when

9:22

hearing or again and i was

9:24

looking at a house to buy and

9:27

was out with real it's her we

9:29

came upon came star this

9:31

farmhouse she had for me to look at

9:33

and we pulled up and looked

9:36

very old so that

9:38

was kind of a red

9:42

, need buddy way we it was

9:44

a cool house but but

9:46

walked up to the house and

9:48

the woman of the house they were still living in

9:50

the house she talked

9:53

to the real uttering me and said

9:56

you i'm to walk through the house or

9:58

the only thing i can tell you the

10:00

my three year old son is upstairs

10:03

sleeping and bedroom and

10:05

was just be really quiet when you go up

10:07

there feel free to look around have you want

10:09

to the just be aware it out and quite

10:11

fairly reassured or we'd be

10:13

fine and we , through

10:16

how say i i

10:18

in your place and went upstairs

10:20

and nothing out of the order

10:22

ordinary know visions

10:24

or anything as nice day there was no

10:26

cold chills or eerie feeling

10:29

that we came back down and

10:31

my real it's her locked out toward

10:33

the back part of the property

10:36

the woman was still standing in the doorway

10:40

the , there and all

10:43

i can say is there was something about the

10:45

place and i just

10:47

knew there was something their

10:49

allies their turned to my lady

10:51

of the house and i said your house

10:53

haunted isn't it see

10:56

what got me and

10:58

she said yes and she

11:00

told me that they'd lived there for seven years

11:04

and they never had seen anything

11:06

in the house wake up

11:08

occasionally and here children playing in the

11:10

background very odd

11:12

hours and course there will no children

11:14

out there but out that was kind of a cool

11:17

the oh

11:20

i don't know when you call it an experience

11:22

i just because the scary

11:25

or creepy that it was just

11:27

a recognition of there was something

11:30

there besides what we were saying

11:32

and i didn't feel

11:34

threatened when i

11:36

just knew there was something there and

11:38

i knew it wasn't the play or me can up

11:40

yeah yeah i didn't so

11:43

that that was that was the have

11:45

had experience that i had

11:48

no outright i know in different

11:50

states especially out east

11:52

they they have this this sub

11:56

it's like clause where if something

11:58

is is haunted they have to i'll you

12:00

that the house is haunted do

12:02

they have that in oregon where they have to notify

12:04

you have you have is haunted or not

12:07

i have never heard about that's very

12:10

interesting i wonder what kind

12:12

of authenticity they have

12:14

to the to bring in like a group

12:16

people to verify it out or something

12:19

i

12:19

think a world like much it's

12:21

also there's there's a murder clauses well

12:23

so far as if a murders happen

12:25

in house and to tell you that that a murders happened

12:27

if a house is haunted as

12:29

i know it's new york state they tell they

12:32

they have to tell you if i'd ,

12:34

i think in connecticut as well not quite sure

12:36

but there's a couple different states where if

12:38

it's believed to have believed to is haunted

12:41

or is it a reported haunting

12:43

they can't prove it be sooner but if

12:45

is if is there's a reported haunting house

12:48

they have tell you that there's been a report

12:50

and haunting in the house

12:53

well i haven't heard it out that i'm gonna

12:55

check and to adjust out of curiosity

12:57

because we have small mining

12:59

town near where i lived

13:01

it's historic it's still operates

13:03

their little shops there and it's sort

13:05

of a touristy place and

13:08

i know there's a hotel they are dead

13:11

it's common knowledge among the

13:13

residents in the area that it's

13:16

haunted and that guess

13:18

have had sightings so it

13:20

would be interesting to know if you're supposed

13:23

to declare that it

13:25

would yeah most definitely most definitely

13:28

did you have another paranormal experts you wanted to share

13:30

visitors

13:32

well the only thing i was going to say

13:34

is before my time in law enforcement

13:36

my mom i

13:39

did have experience that experience don't often

13:42

share with keep all birds i

13:45

was shocked by serial killer

13:47

serial was one of those people that this

13:49

story after the fact really

13:52

dead the us it

13:56

was not as well known

13:58

it has been be bad name

14:00

is a charles edmund kemper

14:02

okay and he he's considered

14:04

the campus coed murder

14:08

happened in santa cruz california

14:10

and as it turned

14:12

out i looked across the street from him the

14:16

and he was calling me

14:18

on the phone so that that was

14:20

pretty nightmarish for me i was

14:22

down he at the

14:24

time i was just about to move out my

14:26

parents' house so that was that

14:28

was pretty awful the

14:31

time period for us oh

14:33

wow so how long until

14:35

he was your from the time he

14:38

either stop calling you are from the time

14:40

he was calling you to the time he was car the

14:43

know well

14:46

see , case involved

14:48

when he was fifteen

14:51

fifteen murdered his grandparents

14:53

and they put and man

14:56

some sort of a mental hospital

14:58

and let him out at pretty

15:00

much to than twenty or twenty one and

15:04

so at that time his

15:06

mother we didn't know a

15:08

week there was a small you plaques across

15:11

street from us she lives

15:13

and wanted units so she was living

15:15

with her and he

15:18

started calling me on

15:23

you know times you know we didn't

15:25

have caller id so

15:27

in order to trace calls it was

15:30

difficult calling me by when he

15:32

called the ask for me by

15:34

name so i never met

15:36

him never saw him he was a giant

15:38

of amount about

15:40

six by it is mike three hundred

15:42

pounds side remembered if i ever

15:45

saw and bad hi

15:48

eventually moved out my parents' house

15:51

lived on my own the

15:55

my i went to visit my parents

15:57

they were away i'm

16:00

the police and it was easter

16:02

sunday can miss you know

16:04

was another experience it

16:06

happened to me i went their house

16:08

and and at this time there was no

16:10

story about campers he was not

16:12

in the news there , nothing

16:15

and so i went to the house sunday

16:17

is beautiful sunday i opened

16:19

the war i

16:22

couldn't go and i just had a very

16:26

cheri be shocking the

16:30

i just couldn't i couldn't overcome

16:32

that feeling i just

16:34

had to leave i i knew i

16:36

was in imminent danger

16:39

anna was horrible feeling and

16:41

horrible laughed and went home

16:44

on the following day mother

16:47

called me and said have

16:49

you seen newspaper i

16:52

said i know when she said

16:55

well you're digging

16:57

heads up across street in backyard

17:00

the on all about which part of

17:02

be unfolding have had many

17:04

temper and ah he

17:07

mounted the number

17:10

people and he went after

17:12

college women

17:16

now it was she is

17:18

pretty frightening to

17:20

think that the had been calling

17:22

me on the phone then we had

17:24

gotten in touch with the sheriff's

17:26

office at the time and

17:29

they had they tried to cap

17:31

the line exhorted discounted you

17:33

know it's just a prank phone call but

17:35

i knew weapon prank phone calls and

17:37

he he had called for weeks

17:40

at all times a day doing

17:42

and yeah so

17:45

that was that was a near miss for me

17:47

and i am i'm grateful for that for sure

17:50

the boy the not should experience

17:52

for the young i'm for me yeah

17:54

no we're we're grateful your silver here

17:56

to lazily it's wow

17:59

no it ah yeah

18:01

i'm i'm always it's

18:04

amazing you that you think year if you know

18:07

we put ourselves in the cocoon or this bubble

18:09

that we think we're always safe you know wouldn't

18:12

we walk around with in this era of false

18:14

safety around us i think it's

18:16

at all times and and we never

18:18

really realize we're only so many degrees

18:20

away from us as

18:22

an incident you know i

18:25

don't think people realize how how close

18:28

you really are to danger at

18:30

any given time

18:33

i registered grateful i know is

18:35

divine providence that just a just

18:38

kept me from falling into

18:40

the same fate as some those other women

18:43

and i'm just grateful for

18:45

it so now no

18:47

the that

18:49

influence you in a way to get into law enforcement

18:51

or was that the a just so

18:53

happened to happen and then something

18:55

else influence you to get into law enforcement

18:59

you know i think it probably played

19:01

a little bit into it a also

19:03

played into it i think is a

19:05

my dad was military and

19:07

he was in the army and he was a

19:09

lieutenant colonel and so

19:11

we were a military family so

19:13

always grew up with respect authority

19:16

and the importance of

19:18

the role that authority house the

19:20

society saw so i

19:22

think that made i'm

19:25

law enforcement and attractive know

19:28

avenue for meta spend my

19:30

time manhattan writing

19:32

about the those things probably affected me

19:36

interesting interesting so

19:38

did you find law enforcement fulfilling was

19:40

at one those those careers as you thought

19:43

you know that that was the that

19:45

was fulfilling serving serving the public

19:49

well i took them a brief the

19:52

barrage and and got married

19:54

had a a kid you know my

19:56

son my oldest an so bad

19:58

that was occupying try manage

20:00

the i was a young mom

20:02

i did go back i had started

20:05

college and i finished my car college

20:07

education in

20:09

in the process they are is i

20:13

was also an interest in politics

20:15

just not being a politician

20:17

but just the whole idea politics

20:19

man so you just and

20:22

the course of my classes one

20:25

, the classes i took took

20:28

communications and dispatch

20:30

and you know

20:32

emergency dispatch and part

20:34

about klaus was too them

20:38

time at the communication center in county

20:40

that was in santa cruz county and

20:43

i just found i i loved it i

20:45

just love be what

20:48

excitement other it i love the uncertainty

20:51

of what you do every day

20:53

at work i felt like i was

20:55

part of the adrenaline i'm

20:58

getting help to people in need and

21:01

yet i was removed from

21:03

the danger part of it more it was

21:05

in was in middle of thing so so

21:07

i just loved doing now

21:09

that's good that's very good i'm

21:13

so him while was while you're

21:15

working dispatcher image sheree

21:19

no because i naturally

21:21

when moved to oregon so i didn't

21:23

move to oregon and till night the eighty

21:25

okay and then

21:29

thought it was through

21:31

on a church spared

21:33

i was going to dad

21:35

had dad they

21:38

had a small bank which and

21:40

my husband who i was

21:42

engaged to we

21:45

went to banquet where we

21:47

ended up meeting story and her husband

21:50

that's how we initially match

21:53

wilkinson a year talking about her husband

21:55

dawn so you had known done before

21:58

everything it have yeah what

22:01

what was interesting was my

22:03

husband husband were engaged in nineteen

22:06

eighty six and that was

22:09

and february when bad bank

22:11

what was because it was as sweetheart celebrating

22:13

valentine's day banquet and

22:18

we went in and we were that's just

22:20

who we ended up being seated wet was

22:22

dawn and three and

22:25

hadn't , them before either number church with

22:28

small you'd sometimes just don't know everybody

22:30

and had never really

22:33

talked to them and so

22:35

we had dinner with they are men got

22:37

to know them and that's

22:40

the kind of i'm saying that if

22:42

i was looking back on

22:45

the series the dance

22:48

fab how i got to write the book or

22:50

team about doing now was thinking how

22:53

we were sitting with them at that table

22:55

and february and and february october

22:57

of that year that

22:59

dwayne shot and killed by and

23:02

i thought about what normally people do

23:04

when they are meeting people you know you

23:06

ask about what they do and where

23:08

they live and if the kids and

23:11

just wondering sense dad you

23:14

know of we would have asked if they had kids

23:16

tonight i just wondered if there was

23:18

any hint of problems i'm sure they would not

23:21

share that with us as you you

23:23

know we're just snapped them but yeah

23:25

so we we had the opportunity get get

23:27

to know dawn

23:28

very friendly guy nights

23:31

were com comes across in the book

23:33

tells a little bit about job before

23:35

we launched into things a little bit about done

23:37

in surrey and about their

23:39

daily lives now daunted what

23:41

for daunted live

23:44

it on with heavy equipment

23:46

operator so when they had they

23:48

had moved up also from california

23:51

but down in southern california than

23:54

they moved up and bout nineteen

23:56

seventy and she

23:58

came up here i usually

24:01

without work but he always

24:03

was able to find work so

24:05

soon after they moved

24:07

here they started the applegate

24:10

dam which is the applegate

24:12

valley which is where the had

24:14

bought property and

24:16

and so he is a heavy equipment operator

24:19

or later on in the blood as

24:21

that hi

24:23

jack finance he became

24:26

a ah you weren't for lot the

24:28

company has a mechanic because

24:30

the a logging area and

24:33

i'll be logging trucks that are out on

24:36

roads remote roads

24:38

needed to be maintained then they

24:41

needed somebody to come

24:43

their aid of a were having trouble so

24:45

he was busy guy and com

24:48

eerie adapted mechanical things

24:52

and as he's working

24:54

his working a lot hours obviously

24:56

because there's lot do

24:58

out there when it when it comes to log in the

25:00

working from sunup to sundown and

25:05

he's he's accruing quite a bit of money

25:07

and he's looking forward was sure he to

25:09

building kind of their their ultimate home

25:11

isn't

25:13

yeah they they , always

25:16

when they met downing yeah anna california

25:18

it's funny they were were net

25:21

first since when they were in

25:23

junior high and then didn't lost

25:25

touch with each with for

25:28

nine years and then met

25:30

again and twenties

25:32

and then got married and is

25:35

both had a dream boat loves fishing

25:37

the outdoors they wanted to move out california

25:40

today the pacific northwest so

25:43

they came up here found some property

25:46

along the beautiful applegate river urges

25:49

overgrown there

25:53

was nothing much to look out

25:55

although was along the river and

25:58

they put their the resources

26:00

into the property and went back to california

26:04

and to live for couple more years

26:06

to save money my

26:08

main moved up here and the

26:10

on brought a mobile home

26:12

up here and set up

26:14

shop so it really was

26:17

dream for them they wanted they fishing

26:19

outdoor light dead

26:22

the happen in oregon especially

26:24

in southern oregon sunday it was

26:26

a dream come true for them

26:29

that sounds absolutely beautiful and

26:34

there's a there's time where as eight they

26:36

move up to organ

26:38

there and they start this a and it sounded

26:40

like it was laborious data is he not

26:43

only was beautiful but they are there are building

26:45

lot from

26:47

, because obviously although

26:49

done was working very hard and in

26:51

the header crew money i think at one points

26:55

it's mentioned in the book that they got a

26:57

windfall or an inheritance and they tude

26:59

to kenneth get them going on this home

27:03

yeah they were living in their mobile home

27:05

for quite while and

27:08

then they had they

27:10

had had bit of a problem

27:13

because job not don was between

27:15

jobs and the see

27:17

had taken on a

27:19

different sort of business venture

27:22

that wasn't paying him go the well that

27:24

was requiring a lot of hours

27:26

or him and , the income

27:29

dropped off ensure he was a beautician

27:31

by profession but but

27:34

she moved up from california

27:37

is she's pretty much they

27:39

had dwayne and so she pretty much

27:42

was being was stay at home mom

27:44

and helping you know to try

27:46

to clear the land to clear of that

27:48

so they

27:51

were able to build a house

27:54

com act her her gripping

27:56

father debut and leslie her son he

27:58

to that seated predawn

28:01

change and work and

28:03

i'm jenny have the funds

28:06

to actually build very modest

28:08

home ne sais

28:10

they had dwayne

28:12

there was a bit of an issue because

28:15

they were they were trying to have children but

28:17

they they're having having of an issue

28:19

is with infertility so he decided

28:21

to adopt correct

28:23

that's right yeah they had tried

28:28

for it was

28:30

eight years and and she

28:32

was she didn't i get

28:34

pregnant so the decided

28:36

that adoption was an

28:38

option that they wanted to

28:41

explore after and may good so

28:44

and the moment that they

28:46

adopted dwayne they considered

28:48

him their son there was never any

28:50

oh he's just adopted attitude

28:53

at all he was there sign

28:55

an that they were excited to have them

28:57

and just so happy to be able to be

28:59

parents

29:02

in so that the they

29:04

have dwayne their their resume

29:06

their happy though the the houses

29:08

being builds things are

29:10

moving along steadily at

29:13

what point does the

29:15

net come along the net

29:17

their second child

29:20

right yeah twain was

29:22

five when when

29:25

sure we actually became pregnant

29:27

so it was like thirteen

29:30

years that she was infertile and then

29:32

they have i'm don

29:34

add so the

29:37

yeah that was a big surprise

29:39

they were there was a lot celebration about

29:41

that at the we're very happy

29:44

to urge had her

29:49

now there's there's some issues even

29:52

before the net is born with

29:54

dwayne i'm there's there's

29:56

a wasn't there an issue with some cats

29:58

before the for the

30:00

net was born where where

30:02

there isn't there is kind of an of

30:04

an the not

30:06

issue down by river with with with dwayne

30:10

yeah the burbs family

30:12

as the parents were early

30:14

risers this happened on happened

30:17

weekend morning when both on

30:19

and sheree were home and

30:22

twain was about four

30:24

and sheree heard

30:27

something she had the window open

30:29

and they , sleep

30:31

and something from outside

30:34

woke her up and and

30:36

calls out bad and looked out the window

30:38

when she saw dwayne out

30:40

there standing on but on

30:44

who is soaked from head to toe

30:46

head so she

30:49

couldn't even imagine what had happened course

30:51

will dot up he will running out

30:54

side and with

30:56

the man and dried mob they brought

30:58

man and they , was

31:00

he was totally well now you have to remember

31:03

that is beautiful property they'd lived

31:05

on was a lot the applegate forever

31:08

and so on pretty dangerous

31:11

spot for a child be

31:13

wandering around out and and

31:15

then they get also have crease

31:17

that ran ran along the properties

31:20

side into the river though

31:23

on they would the after

31:25

they got him kind of calm

31:27

down right off can

31:30

she was upset that was crying it

31:32

was crying they

31:35

asked him you know what what happens you

31:38

you know they were trying not to get him upset

31:40

again but day know what

31:42

hadn't taken place and only

31:45

to get out them was something about the

31:47

kittens and

31:49

they had mother kept it it had

31:51

litter kittens a few weeks before

31:54

and the out all

31:56

been touched it year from now was

31:58

he was gonna go and check on let's see

32:00

what was gone i know this big piece property

32:02

where the trails

32:05

and would turn but

32:08

this that led

32:11

from about the house down to the

32:13

creek that's

32:15

where dawn felt was most likely

32:18

that dwayne had gone and she

32:20

went down and explored of there

32:23

was footbridge between the we're

32:25

his house the neighbors and

32:27

near the footbridge an

32:30

close to the crease found cats

32:32

the mother cat and her

32:34

kittens were all near the creek

32:37

anywhere is where is duane was and they

32:39

were curled up near the blackberry i

32:41

says here the

32:44

runway the course confused about

32:46

what it happened and so

32:49

only new ways of the cats were cats

32:51

were dwayne was were and the creek

32:54

was there must have some do it creek

32:56

so he goes back in the house and the

32:58

only thing manage juri

33:00

and on were able to get out

33:02

of dwayne was it

33:05

he and the cats had ended up the water

33:09

he said he had well

33:11

now love footbridge

33:14

bag his reason for that

33:16

kept changing as they tried

33:19

to get out of them what he was toying why

33:21

which out there he

33:23

gave use that being

33:25

a lot the cats had scratch cam

33:27

or the cats wanna do drink of water

33:30

or day he wants see

33:33

if they could swim so

33:36

there are they're , disturbed

33:38

by a that behavior and

33:41

and really we're sure what

33:44

he did a achieve and had motive

33:47

but they were

33:49

even more disturbed by the situation

33:51

that dwayne could have easily drowned

33:53

in creek him on the water

33:56

was running pretty high end it

33:58

they were just very sorry about

34:00

that so i'm i'm now

34:03

into it that to the gig red flag

34:05

the couple a major secure the house

34:08

even more they died he

34:10

wasn't wouldn't be able to get our the house

34:13

without them realizing it and so course

34:15

they were concerned about that and remedy that

34:17

but the behavior

34:19

itself was disturbing

34:22

they should be and you'd think at that

34:24

point you know the the and ten are

34:27

up little bit and in now it's

34:29

time to trying to look after i'm because

34:31

the and own did this

34:34

you know that that's that's kind of the beginnings

34:36

of some odd behavior that you

34:38

might want to keep an eye on that now you've mentioned

34:40

that denied comes along and in dub

34:43

at that point in or doing

34:46

is is around five years old and and

34:48

it's at this point that you really have to start

34:50

to wonder is dwayne okay with

34:52

that said spoiler take break we

34:55

come back for it to find out how did dwayne

34:57

deal with the net and dad

34:59

did he look after dinner like this

35:02

know good older brother he should beer

35:05

city to look at the net and a sibling

35:07

rivalry kind away and and

35:09

how does dwayne start to develop

35:11

as a the as a young

35:13

kid none as a teenager and and

35:16

does he flies , and narrow

35:18

or does started take that kind

35:21

of shall we say past

35:23

does not quite the

35:26

not quite good good path that we

35:28

us we would expect him to take

35:30

as after that first incident ah

35:33

i'm the books is is

35:35

, is an intriguing when folks say i encourage

35:37

you do i click on the link in the description

35:41

of this program and pick it up it's called the decision

35:43

kill a true crime story of teenage

35:45

killer in the mother who loved

35:47

our guest is a lovely

35:50

julie area and will me come

35:52

back we'll talk more about says dwayne

35:55

and his in his decisions

35:58

and that fateful day and night need

36:00

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36:06

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36:21

let's ride

36:23

come back here on the best into crime podcasting

36:25

this is true crime tuesday

36:30

back to the best in true crime podcasting

36:32

this is true crime to say i'm tim dennis

36:34

or guess is alisa juliet

36:36

read the book is the decision to kill

36:39

a true crime story of teenage

36:41

killer in the mother who loved him well

36:44

we when we went to break the

36:49

the

36:49

net was born and the dwayne

36:51

is is just the a young

36:53

child but he's already started to show a

36:56

bit of a of personality

36:58

disorder that he is that

37:00

taken out on animals and now

37:02

he is the

37:04

starting to get little older now has sister

37:07

the and does he look at his sister

37:10

dinner as of

37:12

fumble playmaker does he look at or is sibling

37:15

rival

37:17

well i think it's from

37:20

white shirt hold me they

37:23

did what most parents try to do

37:25

they want to be really

37:28

sensitive , that sibling

37:30

that's already been in a house

37:32

and it helped them not to feel

37:34

displaced so

37:36

there was a lot of hype when sure he

37:38

was pregnant because of

37:41

course if she hadn't been pregnant before

37:44

so there was so there of anticipation

37:47

on the part the family members bad

37:50

the parents tried very hard to

37:52

include him and there's

37:56

to activities preparations

37:58

out a minimal level just it may

38:00

ensure that he knew that

38:02

some that this baby was gonna

38:04

be part of a family not replacing

38:07

him and even at the time that

38:10

are drawn out was born they

38:13

, out of their way to make sure

38:15

they're just he went to visit with

38:17

dawn to the hospital as soon as

38:19

the hospital would in those days

38:21

a week keep people in the hospital for

38:24

several days an eye he

38:26

could go and and she has mom and his baby

38:28

sister and that when they did

38:30

bring done at and sri home

38:32

that day team back com as family

38:35

so i think as

38:37

much as that's a bomb it

38:39

sounded like they tried to

38:42

include dwayne and

38:44

at first he was very excited by being

38:46

five years old and

38:48

he had friends of course it had

38:50

sisters and brothers so that

38:53

he thought wow now she has a sister

38:56

i think he was anticipated this

38:58

anticipated this from what she told me i have

39:01

no way of knowing exactly what he's and

39:03

to zipping by you know that well

39:05

now he has a sister somebody to play with

39:07

and he probably at five didn't

39:09

have a realistic idea was

39:12

having baby around the house would

39:14

mean in terms of it wasn't exactly

39:17

other of playmate that was com and home

39:19

for him so after

39:22

a few weeks he

39:25

pretty much lost can't stand her

39:27

and i think from what

39:29

ah the family members have told me

39:32

that difference and they'd also

39:35

made lot of difference so

39:37

you are interested doing things

39:39

at baby was entrusted and

39:41

and although there still was

39:45

ongoing excitement about having

39:47

this new little girl duane

39:51

was showing even more signs of

39:54

preferring to play

39:57

on as all the and do things on

39:59

his own he away the pretty much

40:02

of a loner school

40:05

as he got old enough to the began

40:07

in school he would

40:09

participate if required

40:11

bad a lot of time he

40:14

kind of held back by there was

40:16

no it

40:19

was jealousy which

40:21

i guess exists in

40:23

a lot of families and some more

40:25

over than there is he

40:28

was just the

40:31

little good solution that she

40:33

was and apply made he had been help

40:35

for a , little things

40:37

to try even things up for for dwayne

40:40

seen you know she she even

40:42

signed him up for boy scouts and went to boyscout

40:44

meetings with i'm and and try

40:46

to encourage him at i think they even brought

40:48

home tree at one time and in

40:51

places the tree the yard and tried to keep

40:53

him engaged but that didn't

40:55

even really seem to work out either did either

40:58

there

40:59

not as much as they hoped

41:01

and course succeed because i'm

41:03

dawn and sure he just love the outdoors

41:05

so much they were hoping

41:08

to share that with their children and adults

41:10

and dwayne never seemed all

41:13

that excited about going out and

41:15

doing things and i think that was also

41:17

part of the idea of get him

41:19

involved in the

41:21

boy scouts we just

41:24

have the idea of spending time

41:26

outdoors and the campaign and is

41:28

would do it ah he enjoyed

41:31

wearing enjoyed wearing and getting dressed stop

41:33

them and being part of something

41:35

he said later in life bed

41:39

even though sure

41:41

the had him involved for three

41:44

, never

41:47

real transformation he just

41:49

wasn't crazy about the

41:52

about group activities are doing crafts

41:57

meanwhile the

42:00

each you're getting busier

42:02

curious is trying to maintain

42:04

the household and the kids

42:06

down as at work and he's working more and more hours

42:09

on he's taken on i believe

42:11

part part business you don't have any at

42:13

by this time

42:15

yeah you're right that was when he

42:17

was he

42:20

, partnered up with some friends

42:22

of theirs said owned a market said

42:24

they would frequent and did the

42:26

couple had become good friends

42:28

with the couple that on the business and

42:30

on had gotten tired of doing

42:34

heavy equipment operating aegis

42:36

was ready for ready change and when

42:39

his friend bill bird

42:42

to put him in partnership

42:44

with him and there's no

42:46

project on a

42:48

dime thought it was it was opportunity

42:51

so yes that that was about

42:53

that time and so

42:57

he said in working thinking

42:59

as about know that have

43:01

been involved and small businesses

43:05

it's not as glamorous as it stands

43:07

to own your own business she'd make you have

43:09

independents that than you

43:11

have a lot more on

43:13

the other end is for each time men

43:16

and i just becomes more work

43:19

than you realize though dawn

43:21

was being required to spend

43:23

even more time away from home

43:25

and that sheree to

43:28

culture the kids and

43:32

by this time you mentioned the house

43:35

beard kind of built it a little

43:37

bit at bit at so they were unfinished

43:40

house projects that were the

43:44

bothering charade who was why

43:47

don't we just thought that to on was

43:49

gone so much for home it was

43:51

it was tough on their marriage

43:54

what makes it even tougher is that there's a

43:56

woman down at the mill who's little sweet

43:59

on dawn and and she

44:01

brings her car by for dawn to

44:04

to work on and that becomes that bit an issue

44:08

yeah stay that

44:11

created created that

44:13

i think was i had

44:15

already been going on as

44:18

state had both become so

44:20

busy they were neglecting

44:23

each other and know what

44:25

all birds the

44:27

patient with each other and

44:29

was kind of coming out in their relationship

44:32

just as a whole so when he was

44:35

at the now and as young

44:37

woman showed

44:39

interest and cam he

44:42

had created one

44:46

this point down the sides

44:49

you know what as it always is at

44:51

i think something happens in here word

44:53

words you read decides she's

44:56

, gonna lead this woman

44:58

pay more attention during her man than she

45:00

is seen decides to bring

45:02

down lunch lunch

45:04

this woman sitting in dons lap dance

45:06

a little odd ashamed

45:08

is that odd ashamed way to put it as a

45:10

same i'd say soldier in

45:12

done in the season

45:15

the woman's little love embarrassed

45:17

and or series more than upset

45:20

the and down at that point decides to

45:22

reinvest in the marriage little bit decides

45:25

that they're all going go to church together which isn't

45:27

a good way of of assaulting that so

45:31

he reinvest himself into the into the

45:33

marriage and into the family and

45:35

died in kind of readable says efforts

45:38

that good way important yeah

45:41

that perfect okay ah

45:43

so that point the accountable redouble

45:45

their efforts and efforts and

45:48

noticing a little bit said dwayne

45:51

really isn't sitting in

45:53

anywhere naturedly try to reconnect

45:55

with dwayne little bit and

45:58

they're also noticing that dwayne having hard time

46:01

hearing now up until

46:03

this point we haven't mentioned that dwayne

46:05

is had some issues some physical issues

46:08

that the tree is noticed the

46:11

tell us a little bit about the physical issues that going

46:13

on with twain well

46:16

it started out really early

46:18

soon after they had adopted him

46:21

he was developing well on

46:23

his scan or any time

46:25

he was cold or

46:28

wet and cold especially and

46:30

they were not , like

46:33

diaper rash well sped anywhere

46:35

on his body bed he was

46:37

feeling that way can be worth

46:39

it she and and painful

46:42

didn't respond to any and medications

46:45

that sure he would

46:47

put on him yet

46:49

, she went to the pediatrician

46:51

they were they were prescribed medications

46:54

but they didn't seem to help and along

46:56

with that he had

46:58

been diagnosed with asthma yeah breathing

47:00

difficulties and so

47:02

on like mentioned in the book

47:05

appearance were worried about dwayne

47:07

at early on because

47:10

you hate see especially little

47:12

one there so vulnerable you'd hate see

47:14

them struggling with health

47:17

issues so young so young and not being

47:19

able to understand what's going on and so

47:22

there are very upset about that

47:24

but they you know day there's

47:27

kind of took it in stride i guess she

47:29

would say the dwayne

47:32

was there sign they were

47:34

gonna do whatever it took to make

47:36

sure he had good care

47:38

and and it's got mans they ended

47:40

up at hospital with him and

47:42

for breeding treatments they

47:44

just would do what they needed

47:47

to but it did go on he did have

47:49

kind of mysterious ailments

47:52

that would show up at different

47:54

points in his life an com

47:57

sheree

48:00

who is very worried about that for have men

48:02

and though on

48:04

the series seen

48:07

the just another

48:09

thing that dwayne ended

48:11

up com having problems

48:14

with it was noticed when he first went to

48:16

schools sure he hadn't noticed

48:18

it at home in the home environment

48:20

that perhaps it was it's noise you're

48:22

in school there's there's background

48:24

sound searched other things going on

48:27

that the teacher know

48:29

it as then said sure he needed

48:31

to take man

48:34

and get i'm check to see as there

48:36

was something dead be done

48:38

about it so that's what she did

48:40

she to them to the audiologist

48:44

though he gets the hearing aids in

48:46

the end

48:47

the certain look up all that form the also

48:49

decided they're going to find

48:52

an interest form and it turns out that music

48:54

is big interest from they decide get a

48:56

boombox that that's one of things i

48:58

decided do a cd boombox the

49:02

also decide is it at that point that

49:04

is idle so invest in some music

49:06

equipment form as well that

49:09

well

49:09

well i think the music equipment

49:11

kind of i'm transpires

49:14

because the interest in music so once

49:16

he listens he's involved

49:18

and listening to music a lot then it just

49:21

naturally progress for him to

49:23

want some drums and you

49:25

know then he wanted a guitar

49:28

so slowly that evolved

49:30

where they were able to birch

49:32

are some things for and because

49:34

they wanted they wanted very

49:36

badly to connect

49:39

with tears karma

49:41

bears bet it

49:43

seemed for some reason they

49:45

just couldn't com she

49:47

didn't like the things that they like

49:51

he what are the

49:54

best way to communicate n to i'm

49:56

me they were trying to find something

49:58

he enjoyed that day that help

50:01

him have an interest and

50:03

so ah yes they

50:06

got him some music equipment and

50:08

that was dwayne staying after

50:10

dad he loved music he

50:12

loved i'm playing com

50:15

hundred guitar on

50:18

, drums what the background don't

50:20

bother going and he

50:22

then got involved with some friends

50:24

that also liked playing

50:26

music

50:28

the time doing his fifth grade

50:30

though he's the

50:32

starting to develop habit of stealing

50:35

the he fills ink pen at convenience

50:37

store he i'm he

50:40

also

50:41

the or something that you probably

50:43

shouldn't have when it comes to his

50:46

girlfriend of the time sandy seller

50:49

audience what it is he steals

50:51

from right underneath his parents knows

50:55

yeah well one day dwayne

50:59

, my girlfriend sandy are coming

51:01

home a date and dropped off by

51:03

the bus at the end of driveway

51:05

entries outside trees trees

51:09

working in the yard and course there's plenty

51:11

yard on their property to work on and

51:15

she stands up to greet them when

51:18

they come walking down the driveway and

51:20

she notices sandy

51:23

is wearing this heirloom

51:25

ring that she has and it was a

51:27

ring that was given to her by her

51:30

grandmother , it

51:32

had been from a former

51:34

relationship the grandmother it had

51:36

it was a of engagement

51:38

ring and the the engagement

51:40

did not end up and marriage up grandmother

51:43

had this beautiful will

51:46

be reconstructed ruby

51:48

rang , as vintage

51:51

setting around the eighteen hundreds

51:53

an arm had given it to sri

51:55

when she returns sixteen and

51:58

surrey looks at sandy one

52:00

notices for ring on her finger and says

52:03

said i'm waiting to get

52:05

that ring then of course dwayne

52:07

is standing right there and she

52:10

sandy looks at dwayne and says

52:12

the dwayne gave

52:14

it to me the i'm

52:17

sure he just immediately says

52:19

you know dwayne didn't have the

52:21

right to take that ring

52:24

it's not his to give away and you'll have

52:26

to give it back course dwayne

52:28

was embarrassed by being called

52:30

out on it in the

52:33

and for on as his mother

52:35

and shirt and sandy

52:37

badge on that was the first

52:39

time that was very upsetting to sri

52:41

and course after ,

52:43

laughed she talked

52:45

to dwayne about as an he

52:48

had no right to take anything that if

52:50

he wanted something for girlfriend

52:53

and , was something

52:55

she had that maybe she wouldn't

52:57

mind getting to him that

52:59

was one day but you can you know she talked

53:01

about you can't take things that don't

53:03

belong here you can't take things for your yeah

53:06

my just cause they're in the house and

53:09

doubt he really was the

53:12

big step and realizing

53:14

just how serious he would had gotten

53:17

in taking things that didn't belong to i'm just

53:19

cause he wanted them

53:22

he gets weapon about things even

53:24

go so far is that going through his

53:26

his sister's room and steal money from her

53:29

that that that any slip

53:31

and of are you just as all pare back it's no big

53:33

deal he doesn't care that he gets caught

53:36

the it's just that

53:38

matter fact on yeah no big deal

53:43

that's right and yeah

53:46

that was that concern and how you change

53:48

behavior when behavior when see

53:50

that even though you tell him you

53:53

know that that's not what you

53:55

do you don't take things don't belong

53:57

to you and yeah he was doing that

54:01

mike you mentioned about stealing this

54:03

on at their convenience store

54:05

or can net he had no

54:10

mean they had plenty of hands home it wasn't

54:12

something like needed it it was more just

54:14

he wanted to take something yeah

54:17

and so issues becoming

54:19

more of a hum

54:23

how bad bed he was

54:25

doing with regularity

54:27

guy either stealing they'd find things

54:29

missing in the hall the and

54:33

you know than was trying to

54:35

find out what and and knowing

54:38

that was dwayne and

54:40

questioning how med just was

54:43

part of the tension

54:45

that was continuing to build on the household

54:47

with dwayne

54:49

in in down and sure even

54:51

told him which i don't know if i agree with this

54:53

not and in the i guess was only this is a

54:56

, you me agree to disagree with me

54:58

they they they tell him we'll see need money

55:00

for something something tell us

55:02

and and asked and will give it to you

55:04

is do you i don't know that

55:06

i agree with that you agree with that

55:09

yeah oh yeah

55:11

that's that's interesting because i

55:13

know when i talk with cheri about

55:16

the money situation because

55:18

this was before dwayne

55:21

was he did work for a

55:23

while and i gas stations

55:25

and so he was able to earn some

55:27

money they're himself but each for

55:30

dad the table

55:32

do your word parents commonly

55:34

do is give us

55:37

some sort of an allowance the cared so

55:39

they before they are able to earn

55:41

money if they do chores around house

55:43

i kind thing is so that they

55:45

can have spending money but pay discovered

55:47

early on that one the guy gave money

55:50

to dwayne he

55:52

we've gone so dot on especially

55:55

it was very

55:57

careful about giving twain any

55:59

money and let's

56:01

see new their dwayne wandered up or

56:03

something in particular on

56:06

they weren't about to get them twenty

56:09

dogs and just to

56:11

say about you need money here you go the

56:13

i the i like they kind

56:15

of monitored at air it certainly wasn't

56:17

shoes they didn't have the

56:19

money to do that they were the working

56:22

family without

56:24

any extra and become

56:27

so they weren't even if they had

56:29

been was

56:31

couch or more casual gotta be

56:33

they couldn't have given a lot of

56:35

money bag yeah i

56:37

guess maybe there

56:39

were there idea if

56:41

he wants something asked why

56:43

don't you go take it at least or

56:46

and whoa whoa what you the arab money

56:49

if you need for something bad don't

56:51

go take it

56:53

don't know i understand that

56:55

but i guess thrown the caviar of

56:58

know you

57:00

if you can't afford it then

57:02

you have to save for it you

57:04

know i me out that was always thrown

57:07

in i guess when i was a kid you know

57:09

if you don't have money for it will then you have to

57:11

plan for it's i'm that

57:13

was part budgeting in

57:16

well as ah and in answering

57:18

your question and knowing charades

57:20

and she had to budget i'm

57:23

sure she expected

57:25

bad of them as well

57:27

so without knowing specific

57:29

site i just suspected

57:32

a lot of those the details

57:35

were in on him

57:37

it just didn't more than

57:39

merch okay didn't he didn't

57:41

save his he didn't have

57:43

money he took what he wanted

57:46

without ask not okay

57:48

get it was just getting worse okay

57:52

good thing is kind of alarming and alarming

57:54

united talked about this affairs

57:56

when they never a big fan barbecues i'm

57:59

in that's how the inner

58:00

hey they had this lovely back porch

58:02

as the days are a

58:04

lovely in all patio

58:07

that they the

58:09

barbecued on and they they headed families

58:11

over as friends over that

58:13

they would that they would barbecue for need

58:16

you know they would entertain that

58:18

way down in sri woods

58:20

and

58:22

there's always the argument from seventies

58:25

especially kids grew up in seventies

58:27

in the eighties of energy give

58:29

your kid a sip of beer is

58:31

that is that the is

58:33

as the accepted norm from

58:35

that time period now you never do

58:37

it the

58:40

you would never say oh yeah just give the tennis

58:42

of beers not a big deal now

58:44

it's believe that deck and set up craving

58:46

and kid at least that's what what

58:48

term a lot of bugs

58:51

drug and alcohol cancers and tell you don't ever

58:53

do that you could potentially be

58:55

setting up craving within a child

58:57

or you could be at

58:59

, very least yours yours is showing

59:01

off bad behavior us

59:04

even if you told a child protective services

59:06

age and you gave kid sip beard be

59:08

grounds for potentially take your child away

59:14

in

59:14

those days was no big deal he

59:16

gave kid super beer say as for it

59:18

it's no big deal it's bits a sip beer

59:20

and what is it and the do what harm is it

59:24

the dawn

59:27

when a little far i think

59:29

when we when we talk about

59:31

what he would give dwayne how

59:35

was a little bit about the extremes

59:38

if you want to call it an extreme at

59:41

what ages he would allow

59:43

and what you would do when it came to dwayne

59:45

in his demands for be

59:49

well probably about

59:52

twelve

59:55

he are at

59:58

one abuse barbecues the

1:00:00

dead that

1:00:03

and dwayne said his beer dwayne

1:00:06

dot course would be barbecue laying

1:00:08

at the barbecue the barbecue there

1:00:10

and she'd have sphere can

1:00:14

or a beer bottle whichever and

1:00:17

dwayne , would out

1:00:19

and as dwayne

1:00:21

got to be around eleven

1:00:23

twelve he just you

1:00:25

know wanted to have a sip of dawns

1:00:28

beer and i

1:00:32

you know i can't i

1:00:36

can't say for certain what

1:00:38

was going on and dogs mind maybe

1:00:40

to him having a beer with his

1:00:42

son well that's one thing when

1:00:44

the her twenty but had twelve

1:00:47

well what's except what you said

1:00:50

ah i remember is a kid

1:00:53

my dad saying i put out a subtle the

1:00:55

of beer and i was young too no yeah

1:00:58

i do think about something that there's

1:01:01

not a good thing and it

1:01:04

is good that we have different perspective

1:01:06

on it now so on

1:01:08

he was a casual most the dawn felt

1:01:10

himself about about

1:01:14

smoking and turn drinking

1:01:16

an maybe

1:01:19

there was way that he could just connect

1:01:22

with dwayne

1:01:24

com can away that she hadn't been

1:01:26

able to do with all but thing said

1:01:28

he had

1:01:31

wanted to do with them with a fishing and hunting

1:01:33

and i'm just the outdoor activities

1:01:36

may be at least the

1:01:38

word d boca the

1:01:41

have a beer the remnant

1:01:43

know has

1:01:45

can away him as out sounds yeah

1:01:50

i want to skip ahead little bit here i

1:01:53

will mention things such as

1:01:56

dwayne at this point starts with a little

1:01:58

bit of manipulation in this

1:02:00

happens this

1:02:03

happens at times with

1:02:05

all teenagers but it happened i

1:02:09

think little bit more with dwayne he

1:02:13

started to

1:02:15

we're putting is lovely he he started

1:02:17

to

1:02:20

many billie a little bit more like you mentioned

1:02:22

he got a job at

1:02:24

, stations as he got

1:02:26

older older he was working

1:02:29

as he he fell in with a bad group

1:02:31

of friends at that centered around

1:02:33

music he he he had eventually

1:02:35

got guitar eyes he

1:02:37

he joined the band or itunes

1:02:39

out that the band were heavy pot

1:02:42

smokers and it turns out that their parents

1:02:44

were pot smokers as well as that correct yeah

1:02:48

okay ah and dot ensure

1:02:50

he eventually found out about that right

1:02:54

yes case and

1:02:58

it they're slowly finding out that every

1:03:00

time dwayne his

1:03:03

is wanting something there's an ulterior

1:03:05

motives right i

1:03:09

would say that's true

1:03:12

the know there's their their trust in him

1:03:15

is on a very short leash well

1:03:19

probably pretty close to nonexistent

1:03:22

other than there

1:03:25

probably there naive

1:03:27

or i'm not sure that's the correct

1:03:30

word but there lonnie

1:03:32

as absurd to change it's

1:03:34

not as bad as they really think

1:03:36

it is knowing it's bad

1:03:39

to one wanting

1:03:41

to believe they can trust them and

1:03:43

knowing that they can't trust

1:03:45

them by what they'd seen

1:03:47

that he does but

1:03:51

cheers wanting him

1:03:53

to the be

1:03:56

honest about bangs bad it just

1:03:58

never seems to go that

1:04:00

way

1:04:02

like a like pad may said about anakin

1:04:04

skywalker and in one of star wars

1:04:06

from she wanted to believe there were still good

1:04:08

him but a that they

1:04:10

wanted to believe there were still good noom but

1:04:13

every time they turned around there

1:04:16

was there was that little

1:04:18

bit where he would betray their trust and

1:04:20

and just got to the point where it got seriously

1:04:23

bad

1:04:25

want to get to the point where

1:04:27

we're almost

1:04:29

that a day or two before and that

1:04:31

that's settled and nineteen eighty six we'd

1:04:35

gotten to point now where sure

1:04:37

where has gotten into invite into her to

1:04:39

her school reunion the and she's

1:04:42

feeling like she shouldn't go because

1:04:44

of the things that are going on at home because

1:04:47

maybe it might be a little bit too much

1:04:50

for , to leave the humps isn't trusted she can

1:04:52

leave home especially with the things

1:04:54

that twain's pulling on

1:04:56

that they're still things that need be done with the

1:04:58

house that are

1:05:00

you know done is putting in so much time

1:05:03

as a job he eventually had leave

1:05:05

the melon go back to the heavy

1:05:07

machinery were correct

1:05:10

yeah it's actually little bit different work

1:05:12

it was primarily a mechanic

1:05:15

work on logging trucks

1:05:17

it wasn't operating like earth

1:05:19

moving equipment anymore it was

1:05:22

it was doing mechanical the

1:05:24

work and maintenance for these big

1:05:26

logging trucks and their service vehicles

1:05:30

and you're getting to the point now where they really can't

1:05:32

trust dwayne to be

1:05:34

home alone or even that

1:05:37

shortly for talking about has gotten even shorter

1:05:39

routes just have just have next to

1:05:41

that the next to that lee's

1:05:43

son and heir burton their hold none tights

1:05:46

on fridays dwayne can sometimes be

1:05:48

let go from school at noon

1:05:51

so

1:05:53

for sure he to be able to go to

1:05:55

hurt her high school reunion back in

1:05:57

california for yeah

1:06:00

okay for her to able go back to that

1:06:02

high school reunion it's

1:06:06

it's done that has to be able to go

1:06:08

back and

1:06:10

get him at school however

1:06:13

ah he can't be in two places at one time

1:06:15

so he does have does have who

1:06:18

is kind down and are on his lot so

1:06:20

done as agreed to hire him to do

1:06:22

some jobs form is a split is this

1:06:24

the case

1:06:26

yeah like it dot didn't

1:06:28

really have extra cash

1:06:30

to stand on

1:06:32

helping out somebody else who was

1:06:34

our gone through financial trouble but

1:06:37

he good see himself at a disadvantage

1:06:40

was surely away because the

1:06:42

were obviously like most all

1:06:45

they're both desi sofort him to

1:06:49

yuri on with his obligations and

1:06:52

also still in the

1:06:55

the , for sure he he knew was

1:06:57

gonna be tight so when this

1:06:59

friend larry had asked him for

1:07:02

some cached on said well said can't use

1:07:05

yeah but i will pay you if your

1:07:07

help me out one i need

1:07:09

you to help me out saw this one particular

1:07:12

ah evening dawn new

1:07:14

t was not gonna get in the

1:07:17

back he actually wasn't on the friday

1:07:19

was a which a few the before

1:07:21

that you've it out he i'm

1:07:25

gone wasn't gonna be able to take dwayne up

1:07:27

dwayne was going to a christian school because

1:07:29

they were hoping that the christian environment

1:07:32

would help

1:07:34

just support their values and home be

1:07:37

little more structured for am and they were

1:07:39

doing all they could because they saw

1:07:41

how how

1:07:43

things were going what dwayne and not have

1:07:45

it was very good so they

1:07:47

put him in christian school and

1:07:50

there was no transportation for

1:07:52

him to get home and of course at

1:07:54

that point they didn't wanna trust him was

1:07:57

driving himself so on

1:08:00

don't always stuck out in the woods announced

1:08:02

his friend of his to pick

1:08:05

between up after school the

1:08:07

on so dawn oh

1:08:10

carried on with his work and he was stuck out

1:08:12

there so long that it was dark the

1:08:14

time he , back

1:08:16

into radio range the company worked

1:08:18

for operated

1:08:22

kind of shortwave radio dispatch

1:08:25

system so they

1:08:27

said that they had heard from dwayne

1:08:31

somehow i'm not sure house dwayne

1:08:33

actually had gotten in touch with them but

1:08:36

com the

1:08:38

that he had been laughed at

1:08:40

the school and

1:08:42

on he was wanting be picked

1:08:44

up there and conan

1:08:48

you know when some dried fan

1:08:50

bases dwayne and at kids

1:08:52

night as about nine o'clock

1:08:55

and he thinks that his

1:08:57

gadgets left him there and forgot about

1:08:59

him which of course was not the

1:09:01

case bad darn

1:09:05

didn't want the

1:09:07

dwayne to realize that their

1:09:09

friend larry i had

1:09:11

not pick them up privilege larry

1:09:14

deterred forgotten so

1:09:16

on dwayne

1:09:18

what about thinking that his

1:09:20

dad had forgotten him and

1:09:23

dad just added to

1:09:25

the tension that was building up three that

1:09:27

week

1:09:29

there's lot of stuff happened that that

1:09:31

week before the was

1:09:33

murdered i mean the as dwayne

1:09:36

dwayne really whether it

1:09:38

were if we've this web i'll get

1:09:40

i'll get that out yet here leslie to leave

1:09:42

this web that set himself

1:09:45

up to

1:09:47

the have excuses for the rest

1:09:49

of his life as to the

1:09:52

it was reading this web deniability

1:09:55

that that he could blame other

1:09:57

people for what he did

1:10:01

the give people an idea

1:10:03

and and will will kind of skim over this

1:10:05

little bit again i was a curse feeble to get

1:10:07

book to read into it further ah

1:10:11

at one point he he

1:10:14

starts arguing with sheree dwayne

1:10:16

does in done

1:10:18

stepson he finally has

1:10:21

had enough he he happens to be home

1:10:23

at the time that that these

1:10:25

are you in was sheree and down steps up to

1:10:28

dwayne and says you want be a tough

1:10:30

guy be a tough guy with me it

1:10:33

step up to me and argue with me you

1:10:36

know you want to fight with somebody fight with me and

1:10:39

it at that point that

1:10:42

dwayne take that as in

1:10:44

in says to sri why i could call

1:10:46

get in on child abuse no

1:10:48

you can't you're

1:10:51

the guy wants to be the tough guy with mom

1:10:53

all the all dad said was you

1:10:56

want be tough guy step up that's

1:11:00

all he said he ever put his hands on his

1:11:02

son

1:11:05

the my career yet it was

1:11:07

yeah yeah yeah well in out one

1:11:09

situation they

1:11:11

didn't shovel darn

1:11:14

good shove dwayne the

1:11:17

well showed me but it's not like he

1:11:19

yeah i'll tell you i've received some beatings

1:11:21

and my time wisely that this a

1:11:23

show of is not thai food now

1:11:28

no and really all these

1:11:31

he we're

1:11:32

was always somebody elses fault

1:11:34

it was always someone elses fault

1:11:37

in you're right he always

1:11:39

used of situation

1:11:41

and twisted around

1:11:44

to turn it into something else

1:11:46

what if you don't blame for something he

1:11:48

would say he didn't do it an

1:11:52

then it would be found

1:11:54

out later he good so

1:11:57

i see would get everyone around him

1:12:00

driving you know or

1:12:02

maybe this time dwayne didn't do that's

1:12:04

not right if we blame him for something

1:12:06

he didn't to on you we should blame emperor's

1:12:09

things you guys do by to pull blaming

1:12:11

him for things he doesn't do then you'd feel

1:12:13

bad and he's just very

1:12:15

just slap on inside with one

1:12:18

get my way again than they find out

1:12:20

later that he

1:12:23

was lying as usual

1:12:25

and cheered he made his

1:12:27

parents feel bad

1:12:31

so it

1:12:33

he would he would do that and

1:12:37

there and he did that in the time

1:12:39

said on the

1:12:41

dawn happened to be there

1:12:43

the good times step between

1:12:46

him and sheree and you know this

1:12:48

is not happening now on the

1:12:51

and on course then daughter feel bad

1:12:54

you , know dwayne didn't feel

1:12:56

bastard hop or no longer years

1:12:59

yeah it was very ineffective

1:13:01

it was very ineffective and

1:13:04

we haven't addressed that the

1:13:06

are bad they sought out sought

1:13:08

much help very early

1:13:10

on when they were saying that there was behavioral

1:13:14

problems with him or things that didn't

1:13:16

seem right as sure he knows

1:13:18

very early on she

1:13:20

wanted help she wanted help in understanding

1:13:23

or saddam understanding straightening

1:13:25

out problem said she saw taking place

1:13:28

and she she pinpoint

1:13:30

objective help and now that's

1:13:32

part the tragedy of the story because

1:13:35

he did have parents that media's

1:13:38

you read story think i could have

1:13:40

done this differently and it's would have

1:13:42

been better thing for them to do but she's

1:13:44

you know deal with they were ordinary folks that

1:13:46

were doing and else they could the and very

1:13:49

tough situation and even trying

1:13:51

to get help and when by that's

1:13:53

why think we also have think of a time period

1:13:55

to in in the mid

1:13:58

eighties something like board the line

1:14:00

personality disorder was never heard

1:14:02

of yeah no it

1:14:04

wasn't diagnosed simple the

1:14:07

even in the time where

1:14:10

the and will get to it here we talk

1:14:12

in in little bit about dwayne prison

1:14:14

years borderline personality

1:14:16

disorder was not a

1:14:19

the psychological disorder that you could you

1:14:21

could diagnose it wasn't a psychosis

1:14:26

you couldn't say that it is that he was

1:14:28

schizophrenia the was you

1:14:32

you could tell that he was a danger to society

1:14:34

but he wasn't under

1:14:37

any particular type psychosis

1:14:40

so you couldn't you couldn't say well you

1:14:43

know i

1:14:45

didn't i can say he's this buddies not

1:14:47

that and and what i'll get that point

1:14:49

you're in second your leslie is to is

1:14:51

to to why in the

1:14:53

i told you something an affair that that

1:14:55

there is mistake that mistake that

1:14:58

that himself made this

1:15:00

tired deal that that

1:15:03

well known for downfalls on

1:15:07

the so

1:15:10

dwayne and in this whole deal in

1:15:12

in i said to can give you the cliff notes

1:15:14

version has done some terrible

1:15:17

some terrible to his parents he's he's

1:15:19

put them to acid trips easy easy

1:15:22

easy even at one point these

1:15:24

run sheree into a drug

1:15:26

den the train come find

1:15:28

after his run away from home the

1:15:32

the oil in in yet he

1:15:34

you know because daddy shoved

1:15:36

him once you know dad

1:15:38

was terrible monster you

1:15:41

know in , and then he claims

1:15:43

to sri at one point when she see

1:15:46

made made her come find

1:15:48

him that she had she

1:15:50

fifty seven pointed at her from

1:15:53

behind a curtain at

1:15:55

one point and she could have had her head blown

1:15:57

off that he made one more

1:15:59

move a you know but

1:16:01

he he reveals the stuff to or nonchalantly

1:16:04

in almost defiantly with

1:16:06

almost giggle in his voice but

1:16:10

but you know but but oh daddy

1:16:12

shoved me the to

1:16:14

him that that becomes the

1:16:17

the catalyst for murder

1:16:22

the idiocy how that's twisted

1:16:25

oh absolutely yes well

1:16:28

it's all to justify what she wants

1:16:30

to do that's he knows he wants

1:16:33

he wants to resolve that she wants and

1:16:35

he's gonna use thing with an see

1:16:37

and swiss them

1:16:41

so that they work for him that's

1:16:44

that's what he did and then he

1:16:46

did you know that he also uses

1:16:49

it in another

1:16:51

situation he says well my dad my

1:16:53

dad the on turn six how put

1:16:55

this

1:16:56

maybe can crack me on this lovely he doesn't

1:16:59

he say something to the effect of low my dad

1:17:01

the how

1:17:04

did he put he database basically

1:17:06

it was my dad would dad

1:17:11

basically like with the beer my dad would would

1:17:15

the do horrible things and then not

1:17:17

horrible things but he would

1:17:20

ah i'm not coming up right words here

1:17:22

he would does something

1:17:25

like he wouldn't what

1:17:27

am looking for though the words years ago

1:17:29

i know you were true i think when you mentioned

1:17:32

beer that's what made me think

1:17:34

of what situation i think you

1:17:36

were referring to like siege

1:17:38

was too faced yes yes

1:17:40

i think he actually use that term

1:17:42

two days now in front of

1:17:44

dwayne he would be all

1:17:46

buddy buddy and let's go get six

1:17:48

pack and you can drive home

1:17:50

and drink beer wow you know i

1:17:52

drink a beer over here and passenger seat

1:17:54

and but then when he

1:17:57

was around when dot

1:17:59

on what around his

1:18:01

wife it was all a totally

1:18:03

different things so that was very

1:18:06

dwayne said very confusing to helm

1:18:08

yes so somehow

1:18:11

there a

1:18:13

made him peter's

1:18:15

dad for being two faced

1:18:18

an also confused him

1:18:20

so it justified summer the

1:18:23

choices somehow doubt

1:18:25

is that what you kind guy he out us out there

1:18:28

that's when i got another part correct so

1:18:30

to tell us lovely what was the final

1:18:32

straw what

1:18:34

what happened on the night that dwayne

1:18:36

killed dawn

1:18:40

well what had happened

1:18:44

what had happened right before

1:18:47

the what had happened

1:18:49

right before she left on her trip

1:18:52

was done on ah had

1:18:54

given charade to is packing

1:18:57

for , trip she's flying early

1:19:00

the next morning which was which believe

1:19:02

on monday morning shoes pack

1:19:04

your bags she had she

1:19:06

gave her and the sixty dollars

1:19:09

at that time six the dollars was

1:19:11

interrupted it as and he

1:19:13

said here you know i i i

1:19:15

have the saved i want you take this so

1:19:18

she had taken the the money and

1:19:20

put it in her wallet and

1:19:23

her lot course was in her purse and that's

1:19:25

all with her all her suitcases

1:19:27

everything she was planning on taking so was

1:19:30

all sat and then

1:19:32

the night before a her

1:19:34

trip she just went

1:19:36

to double check she had everything she'd

1:19:38

planned on taking and discovered

1:19:41

the money was nothing the sixty dollars

1:19:43

was gone aaron

1:19:46

the saw oh he or she is

1:19:48

not wanting to go on the trip ah

1:19:51

worried about what's gonna happen while she's gone

1:19:55

excited to go on trip for not wanting

1:19:57

to and she finds

1:19:59

his money the they

1:20:01

acted she knows she has to tell

1:20:03

dawn have to deal with this

1:20:05

again she doesn't want to deal

1:20:08

with that the night before she leaves and

1:20:10

yet she feels like she

1:20:12

can't go without addressing

1:20:15

a situation so what

1:20:17

, at night which i won't go into

1:20:19

all the details because it makes for good

1:20:21

story yet but they

1:20:24

do they

1:20:26

do address at what dwayne she tells

1:20:28

dawn they talked into

1:20:30

wayne and they decide nothing

1:20:33

else has worked with him they'd

1:20:35

trade com they trade

1:20:38

then just

1:20:41

keeping hamlet from being

1:20:43

able to go places restricting

1:20:45

his activities changing curfews

1:20:48

every thing they can think of nothing

1:20:50

has worked with dwayne and

1:20:52

so what they gonna do

1:20:54

their job lock

1:20:57

up all his music equipment his

1:20:59

beloved music equipment and

1:21:02

for the duration of sure east time

1:21:04

away well be

1:21:06

locked that though

1:21:10

that was something they had never he then

1:21:12

told him they would think that doing

1:21:14

an

1:21:18

so by friday so you figure

1:21:20

it's been locked up for a week on

1:21:22

several occasions he has

1:21:24

approached dawn to let

1:21:27

him have his equipment and on

1:21:29

his said no than

1:21:33

the one nights where

1:21:35

, left at the school and

1:21:39

dawn has left him at the school

1:21:41

and forgotten about him and then

1:21:43

some other things that have taken place

1:21:46

the friday

1:21:49

morning it's around

1:21:51

and friday morning is october seventeenth

1:21:55

the n c

1:21:59

that's to start

1:22:00

the do you like he does every

1:22:02

other day with in just being

1:22:04

on drugs this before he goes to

1:22:06

school cancer short day at school

1:22:09

and he'd been in trouble for

1:22:12

lying about purchasing beer and

1:22:14

for other things and ,

1:22:16

says i'm picking you up from school

1:22:18

at noon you're spending the day with

1:22:20

me you have to ride around

1:22:22

with me and you're

1:22:25

not going anywhere cause i'm keeping an eye

1:22:27

on you so that's the way

1:22:29

that day starts to can

1:22:31

adjust doesn't get any better

1:22:35

okay i'm

1:22:37

fully that there because there details of

1:22:39

the murder or in the book

1:22:42

and a wants you to read the book folks it's

1:22:45

grizzly it's currently

1:22:47

etc the water what's

1:22:49

in the book there now i wanna skip

1:22:52

to the view thing

1:22:54

after dwayne

1:22:57

is incarcerated

1:23:01

i know they may seem weird i

1:23:04

know what are jumping around your little bit leslie

1:23:07

but here's the deal and in has to do with

1:23:09

redemption

1:23:12

the

1:23:12

nature versus nurture and what what i started

1:23:15

out with the beginning of this program

1:23:19

and it has to do with can you escape

1:23:22

you're white written

1:23:24

in and it's it is brought up in the

1:23:26

book a little bit and i think the way

1:23:28

people might interpret this book

1:23:31

the has to do with this

1:23:36

when dwayne is then

1:23:39

because no

1:23:41

no doubt about it the

1:23:46

do a nerd at one point

1:23:50

he the

1:23:52

coins himself innocent then

1:23:54

in in this is this is the

1:23:57

the maddening as believe it not

1:23:59

at i will

1:24:00

what a killer or audience first before we jump

1:24:02

into since we've always told you about

1:24:04

the first part of the book we're

1:24:06

we're an hour and twenty minutes into this podcast

1:24:09

and we've always only but the first hard the book that's

1:24:13

always told you about and we haven't even

1:24:15

told was the entire first half of book we

1:24:17

might i'm gonna a

1:24:19

, of hassle the first part the books

1:24:22

that's that's how much as here now

1:24:26

where we going skim the second half

1:24:28

in in telling you that

1:24:30

in in this is why encourage you to to go

1:24:32

get this book and really read this book

1:24:34

it net and i'll tell you this

1:24:36

book is a heart wrenching

1:24:39

book you may think yourself

1:24:42

don't know but i have anything to to root for

1:24:44

dwayne about he doesn't seem like that

1:24:47

type person i want to root for but

1:24:51

i'll play this much about dwayne in that

1:24:53

there's somebody like dwayne probably

1:24:55

your family or somebody

1:24:57

that you know that's

1:24:59

like doing

1:25:01

there

1:25:02

are people in our society everywhere

1:25:04

that are like dwayne that that

1:25:06

you know of that the ego you know what

1:25:08

they're just step to the left away

1:25:11

from making a decision just like

1:25:13

this that

1:25:15

have this type of personality

1:25:18

that you know i just step

1:25:22

away from needing that tape help it you don't

1:25:24

know how to help and

1:25:26

it's maddening it's maddening

1:25:29

and you want to now

1:25:33

level you and were talking affair about the

1:25:36

one thing that dwayne

1:25:39

could have done the help himself

1:25:42

okay we're talking

1:25:44

about we set it up this entire hour

1:25:46

twenty minutes good

1:25:49

and i'm gonna tell you how he could help themselves

1:25:52

so at one point in this is where i

1:25:54

was starting to to lead in at

1:25:57

one point during his during

1:26:00

his the

1:26:03

during the trials he

1:26:07

pled innocent then pled guilty

1:26:10

then he changed lawyers then

1:26:12

he figured out of some

1:26:14

sort of mad scheme and that

1:26:16

he was going to try and plead

1:26:18

, but couldn't plead insanity

1:26:20

because of previous testimony in

1:26:22

there were some other things that went on were

1:26:25

eventually he ended up because he had

1:26:27

jeopardized himself had plead guilty

1:26:30

who the the crime then he

1:26:32

ends up having to

1:26:35

serve initially as juvenile

1:26:37

because he was juvenile but

1:26:39

, he had this mad scheme where

1:26:41

he well he was in jail that if he

1:26:44

correct me i'm wrong here leslie and i probably

1:26:46

him if he that

1:26:49

physical with or an inmate

1:26:52

he would be able to he

1:26:55

would be able to go

1:26:57

to an adult the a

1:27:00

if

1:27:01

he if got physical in in

1:27:03

in basically got

1:27:06

his charged how does work

1:27:08

were if he if

1:27:10

he gets in a fight they they it up

1:27:12

his charge back up to an adult charge he

1:27:14

goes to an adult that how it happened

1:27:18

no wait so it's really interesting

1:27:20

about that and it may have changed little

1:27:23

and maybe it's different in state

1:27:25

to state i can only speak to or

1:27:27

again but at the time that

1:27:29

dwayne was arrested they

1:27:31

do right off the bat after he

1:27:33

he's rain they know that there's

1:27:35

enough evidence to

1:27:38

hold him and charge him than

1:27:40

they do than remained to curing

1:27:42

and they decide whether not

1:27:45

he's going to be because she was seven

1:27:48

seventeen was sixteen at the time he

1:27:51

i did the crime he was seventeen a

1:27:53

few months later batch if

1:27:56

you're juvenile in you

1:27:58

commit a crime the like

1:28:01

that you can be

1:28:03

we needed to adult court or

1:28:06

they can deal with with

1:28:08

juvenile court and it's all

1:28:10

very different as you can imagine if they're treating

1:28:12

you like you're an adult the air

1:28:15

treating you like you're a juvenile because

1:28:18

they do that as a juvenile

1:28:21

the years maybe

1:28:23

more likely to be rehabilitated

1:28:26

not quite as hardened i mean i'm

1:28:28

being super general here bad

1:28:31

on their captain a juvenile

1:28:33

facility or which is

1:28:35

more geared to having access

1:28:37

to like getting

1:28:39

your high school diploma and they

1:28:42

, them much different than

1:28:44

they do if you're an with for

1:28:46

dart adult adult

1:28:50

offenders anna unit or in

1:28:52

an adult jail adult dwayne

1:28:55

actually had actually

1:28:57

desire before he

1:28:59

even went you

1:29:02

wouldn't what satin is t had desire

1:29:04

he told everybody i'm not going to

1:29:06

a juvenile facility and

1:29:08

the only thing anybody could figure

1:29:10

out for him to have this view because

1:29:13

his attorney said you're out

1:29:15

your mind you don't want to kind

1:29:17

of an adult facility you want

1:29:19

to go the juvenile facility the

1:29:22

majors think that

1:29:24

somebody that he talked to while

1:29:26

being housed at ,

1:29:28

county jail level where they were adults

1:29:31

are that he would have been housed with with

1:29:34

he came over came josephine

1:29:37

county between

1:29:39

his hearing so hearing had contact

1:29:41

with people on the

1:29:43

date him really bad

1:29:45

advice or

1:29:48

maybe he i don't know maybe just thought

1:29:50

of it on it's own because there is no

1:29:53

good reason said he should have wanted

1:29:55

not to be a candidate saudi

1:29:58

the duration

1:30:00

of sentences shorter here

1:30:02

treatment is better at

1:30:04

programs are better everything's better

1:30:07

in l an hour but she went

1:30:09

in you

1:30:11

the sentencing saying i

1:30:13

want go to adult prison world the judge

1:30:16

while she was remanded all that to say sorry

1:30:18

she was i he was

1:30:20

remanded in shadow sold court

1:30:23

shows you is treated like

1:30:25

an adult

1:30:26

that he he

1:30:28

was sentenced when he was sentenced

1:30:31

see should have gone to a

1:30:33

juvenile facility

1:30:35

until he reached the age

1:30:37

of twenty five at

1:30:39

which point that he still had

1:30:41

length and as sentence she would be transferred

1:30:45

you an adult facility side

1:30:47

the juvenile system the

1:30:50

union didn't eat too much information but

1:30:52

the juveniles understand does this

1:30:54

as courtesy to

1:30:56

keep like dwayne

1:30:58

to give them a better opportunity

1:31:01

not to have to be in that environment

1:31:05

sooner than they have to be so

1:31:08

though they do it by yes somebody

1:31:10

like dwayne who came in they're saying

1:31:13

i don't wanna be an with juveniles and

1:31:16

i'm just gonna oh i'm just gonna create

1:31:18

some trouble so

1:31:20

they won't want me here and they'll put me

1:31:22

on with adults mean it was crazy

1:31:24

year and so

1:31:27

he went then to

1:31:29

the juvenile facility and

1:31:31

first chance he had he started a

1:31:33

fight and the it is

1:31:35

you're too much trouble were not weren't when

1:31:37

mckenna keeps you don't have the have you here

1:31:40

yeah so we don't wanna troublemakers

1:31:42

soldiers forgot they put

1:31:44

him in a transport vehicle incentive to

1:31:46

the adults and saudi he

1:31:49

not only that but he created

1:31:52

just

1:31:53

a horrible experience in jail of

1:31:55

his own making for for years

1:31:58

and years and years and years and again in read it in

1:32:00

the book but

1:32:03

then but them

1:32:05

and in only then

1:32:08

he also exposed himself

1:32:10

as to who he truly was

1:32:13

in in jail i'm

1:32:16

and that's the one thing i don't

1:32:18

think he realized he

1:32:22

they by

1:32:24

acting out in acting out

1:32:26

regis li in jail

1:32:31

he truly showed

1:32:34

who he was an

1:32:36

the one thing lazily that

1:32:38

that i told you are

1:32:40

fair that

1:32:42

that i again without revealing

1:32:44

the back end of book here is is

1:32:47

he did some outrageous things and things

1:32:49

and seemed like every time you turned around he was

1:32:51

getting cited for something and he was

1:32:53

getting thrown in the whole for something you

1:32:57

know he he he was getting thrown the whole for this

1:32:59

and he wasn't taking responsibility for

1:33:02

i did this they said did this they said

1:33:04

i did this but i know i didn't do that in

1:33:06

all this time he's writing his mother that

1:33:10

person is writing his mother to

1:33:13

get her forgiveness then

1:33:15

as he doing this he's blaming

1:33:18

everybody except for himself

1:33:21

for what went on then

1:33:24

finally he he starts

1:33:26

to take responsibility

1:33:29

for what he did that

1:33:32

he was putting the blame on others

1:33:35

for making him do it

1:33:38

what he never did was take responsibility

1:33:41

fully for what happen

1:33:44

then he never took responsibility for

1:33:46

his mental illness

1:33:50

and that's the one thing that the

1:33:52

parole board saw the

1:33:54

he didn't

1:33:57

when he kept coming up for parole

1:34:00

he never sat down and in when you

1:34:02

know he had come up with packets know

1:34:05

these packets to a

1:34:07

and he had to take like the m

1:34:09

p i which his a his a test that was

1:34:11

come up with here minnesota

1:34:15

which by the way i love the reference in the book

1:34:17

when he's there's point the book where

1:34:19

he's he's coming back from physical

1:34:21

ailments and and in jail

1:34:23

he finds out that he has this but

1:34:25

what's the name the syndrome alle porte syndrome

1:34:28

yes yes which is why he's got

1:34:31

the wealthy wise got a

1:34:33

in renal failure in in these different

1:34:37

send a symptoms that he's had since he was

1:34:39

young is because he's got this

1:34:41

l port syndrome he

1:34:45

can you know as much as is

1:34:48

he's got this physical l port syndrome

1:34:50

and he knows he can point to that and

1:34:52

be responsible for his physical health he's

1:34:55

never taken responsibility for having

1:34:57

for having illness in

1:35:00

his mental health

1:35:03

he never taken responsibility for

1:35:05

his mental illness being responsible

1:35:08

for the death of his father for

1:35:10

his mental illness being the responsibility

1:35:13

for breaking up his family for

1:35:15

his mental illness being

1:35:17

responsible for everybody elses

1:35:19

issues for his mental illness blowing

1:35:22

up everything

1:35:25

in his path

1:35:27

for him being the what do it mean

1:35:29

he does he takes responsibility

1:35:31

for him doing it but he doesn't

1:35:33

take responsibility for the real issue

1:35:37

in in at that's that's

1:35:40

the issue had he done

1:35:42

that with the parole board everything

1:35:44

or been okay

1:35:48

that's

1:35:48

interesting you should say that but

1:35:50

i don't quite understand

1:35:52

the difference you know you're making a

1:35:55

differentiation their a very

1:35:57

one it you see really

1:35:59

clear

1:36:00

the way it sounds to me

1:36:02

when you say that their

1:36:04

dad's blaming man that

1:36:07

is almost like i can't help it

1:36:09

i have an illness it made me

1:36:11

do it how is why i know that's

1:36:13

not what you're saying don't know it it sounds

1:36:15

like that's what you're saying

1:36:16

the only the only thing that's me

1:36:19

yeah yeah okay so what saying is ahead

1:36:21

he said there's

1:36:23

something inside of me that i can't

1:36:26

control and i need to find way

1:36:28

to get help for

1:36:32

that is basically surrendering

1:36:35

in in a in in any

1:36:39

you you you basically admitted

1:36:41

the fact that you're powerless you're powerless over

1:36:44

your substance your any and you give

1:36:46

everything to your higher power

1:36:48

then there's a you're powerless over

1:36:50

overwatch it's basically that same

1:36:53

concept

1:36:55

except for your powerless over here disease

1:36:58

then you if you if he were to go to the

1:37:01

the parole board and say listen i

1:37:03

have an issue i don't know how

1:37:05

to solve i'm telling you

1:37:08

that

1:37:09

i need to be in long term

1:37:11

therapy program with a psychologist

1:37:15

and i'm not a threat

1:37:17

to society but i do

1:37:19

know they need to be closely watched

1:37:22

after

1:37:23

that i do need to be a

1:37:25

structured environment that

1:37:28

i have a plan for the structured environments

1:37:31

that i plan to be far away from my mother

1:37:33

and my sister that

1:37:36

i don't plan to maintain contact with

1:37:39

that i plan to be a

1:37:41

working member of society this is how

1:37:44

that this is how i plan to control my

1:37:46

rage that this is how i plan to control

1:37:48

this that i know i have these issues

1:37:51

and this is how i plan to you

1:37:55

are the suppress

1:37:57

them and that

1:37:59

i know i need some sort of psychiatric

1:38:01

drugs in order to get much

1:38:05

the that showing self awareness the

1:38:07

an issue he never

1:38:10

hear he never showed self awareness

1:38:13

of mental illness he

1:38:15

denied it the entire time in

1:38:17

, he would not only

1:38:19

did he deny it but he was blatantly

1:38:23

angry about it and was blatantly

1:38:25

angry blatantly the psychiatry

1:38:27

as who psychiatry as say know

1:38:30

he's not

1:38:32

there's no psychosis here but there's issue he

1:38:34

says he is a danger to society

1:38:36

so or at least moderate dangerous society

1:38:39

so so that's

1:38:41

what would get upset at he would get upset

1:38:43

the psychiatrist seem get upset with himself

1:38:47

he didn't say okay there's an issue here i need figure

1:38:49

out way for you the and never went back

1:38:51

and said well how he did go back and

1:38:53

say how can i corrected then

1:38:57

he said why i guess i just need to accept

1:38:59

their there the

1:39:01

decision but , never

1:39:03

really truly went in there and said okay

1:39:06

i've formulated plans i

1:39:08

know what i need i've i've had the

1:39:10

self retrospection retrospection

1:39:12

i formulated a plan in this is

1:39:14

what i'm going to do what

1:39:16

do you say

1:39:19

had we done that you would have been free man

1:39:21

back in two

1:39:23

thousand servers maybe even

1:39:25

two thousand five

1:39:30

that that's ah that's interesting

1:39:33

i know and i guess for your listeners

1:39:36

yeah i want to point out that this

1:39:38

book is just a little

1:39:40

bit over three hundred pages so

1:39:43

even though we've

1:39:45

talked on and on about it about

1:39:48

it not like a thousand p no winners

1:39:50

on the body inflammation in a short

1:39:52

of yet you know within that time

1:39:54

a lot goes on sites the only

1:39:56

thing i would say i think you have a very strong

1:39:59

point i really do

1:40:01

i know that he had

1:40:03

different times he was on prozac she

1:40:05

was taking medications yes she

1:40:07

did have good have counselors

1:40:10

working with him for an i just

1:40:12

want to put that out there now

1:40:14

whether see verbalize

1:40:16

that in

1:40:20

but alert see the

1:40:22

pacific way what you're saying no

1:40:25

lot of times lazily a lot times

1:40:28

people with a in this i'm

1:40:30

not doctor salt of tell you this

1:40:32

right off the bat i'm not a doctor

1:40:34

i can't speak for this in this may be inaccurate

1:40:37

and case prozac works for some

1:40:39

people who have

1:40:42

we have a personality disorder it

1:40:44

doesn't work for other people who

1:40:46

have that everybody chemistry difference

1:40:49

so it might have worked for him it

1:40:51

might not have work from i don't know i can't mention

1:40:54

so

1:40:55

it would have a would been he would had to have been

1:40:57

under a there a

1:41:00

as

1:41:00

like i address your psychologists care or

1:41:03

under doctor's care and had tried

1:41:06

different psychiatric medications the

1:41:08

what was that what suppress different things

1:41:10

like the rages he was going through because did mention

1:41:13

even after he had been on prozac that he was still

1:41:16

when he would get down he was experiencing

1:41:18

the rages again he was experiencing during

1:41:21

the gets so obviously even

1:41:23

though he had been a process the was

1:41:25

still feeling those rages

1:41:32

it's complicated

1:41:33

it is complicated

1:41:36

, and that's why that's why i say

1:41:38

everybody has somebody in

1:41:40

their family or or has

1:41:42

, like this or has

1:41:45

loved one like this or or has

1:41:47

an acquaintance like to set they know

1:41:49

that they go you know what it's like i say something

1:41:52

and they turn it around and i told the sky

1:41:54

is blue and they say that's great i love fact

1:41:57

that the the clouds are green today any gotten

1:41:59

what's that

1:42:00

ap are you talking about murder

1:42:03

and you go what is wrong with you

1:42:07

in in a day they pop off

1:42:09

at the smallest thing and you go

1:42:12

why why are you not understanding what i'm

1:42:14

saying or the they go off and they do their

1:42:16

own thing and anything what

1:42:18

is it that's wrong with you in

1:42:21

you have to realize said that sometimes

1:42:24

it's nature versus nurture

1:42:26

in is it that people are

1:42:28

wired a certain way and we can't do anything

1:42:31

about it or is it said

1:42:33

they can they can spices

1:42:37

be something different and see and what was wonderful

1:42:39

about dwayne at the end of this

1:42:41

it is , he was still fighting

1:42:44

and that's why encourage people to go get

1:42:46

this book the decision to kill kill

1:42:49

, at the end of

1:42:51

this book she's still fighting would there's

1:42:53

a passage in this book i absolutely love

1:42:55

because i'm a minnesota vikings a and

1:42:57

at at the and of florida he's

1:43:00

he's he's he's is

1:43:03

absolutely loving brett farr of who he

1:43:05

said you know he writes his mother sheree

1:43:07

and says i'm you know

1:43:09

mama is i i've started to take

1:43:11

up new hero brett farr who played for

1:43:13

the green bay packers and and played for the jets

1:43:15

and always on minnesota vikings and thirty

1:43:17

nine years old and he's gonna be forties

1:43:19

and he's out there and is playing and

1:43:22

, i'm almost forty now and i've in