0:00

And.

0:04

Why Everybody. I'm josh my

0:06

thoughts and we are talking dateline

0:08

and are guess today is Keith

0:10

Morrison I. Hello! Josh

0:13

How are you. Ah,

0:15

this is starting off about the way

0:17

I expected arm. Is

0:20

really quite delightful. That Archie Josh

0:22

that's much better that suggests that

0:24

you've made some progress. It's the

0:26

last time we did this, so

0:28

this episode is called. The. Night

0:30

time stopped. And

0:32

if you haven't seen it or of have

0:35

listened to what it is the episode right

0:37

below this one on the list of podcasts

0:39

that you just chose from. So go there

0:41

and listen to it or watch it on

0:44

T V or stream it on Peacock. And

0:46

then come back here. Today. I've got

0:48

some questions for Keys about this latest

0:51

episode. Keith also has an extra clip

0:53

that was not on the episode that

0:55

he's in a play for us and

0:57

then later we are going to talk

0:59

to you. Were going to take some

1:01

of your viewer questions and listener questions

1:03

about this episode of from social media

1:05

so let's talk Dateline. Or.

1:07

To begin here: Ah, this was

1:09

a very recent story. As dateline

1:12

episodes go, I mean it. The

1:14

it happened in May of Two

1:16

Thousand and Twenty Two and I

1:18

think you did the first episode

1:20

on this later that yes, Yes,

1:23

Indeed, we were running around the

1:25

condom. I'm. Trying

1:27

to catch up with everybody who knew what was

1:29

going on and we were able to of the

1:31

outlines of the story or right before the trial

1:34

actually began. And. Then this is

1:36

a deep dive and we couldn't do

1:38

before. You. Know we we have all the

1:40

information and we were able to talk to gain a

1:42

more of the people who are involved in this. Strange.

1:45

Events. Because. Sometimes people are

1:47

not available when it first happens, because they

1:49

are unprepared and because they don't want to

1:52

get involved and then as time passes, they

1:54

read about it. Maybe they're mentioned in some

1:56

of the articles or stories about the thing,

1:58

and now they do. want to talk. And

2:01

what happens too, as you know, is that people

2:04

who are, you know, going about the business of

2:07

investigating and prosecuting these cases often don't

2:09

feel that they're able

2:11

to speak about it before the trial

2:13

actually happens. They want to do their talking at trial.

2:16

Understood. So last

2:18

time around, the prosecutor wasn't talking

2:21

to us, the detectives were unable

2:23

to be very revealing. Of course,

2:25

the U.S. Marshals couldn't talk to us at all.

2:28

In this case now, everybody has come forward

2:30

to tell the whole story. And that

2:33

just makes it far richer and more interesting.

2:36

The interesting thing about this, I

2:38

thought, is how hard it is

2:40

to hide from law

2:42

enforcement. Caitlin Armstrong, her on

2:44

the run with the yoga mat under

2:46

her arm is just one of the

2:48

most remarkable things I've ever seen on

2:51

Dateline. Isn't that interesting, yeah. And her

2:53

trying to settle into a little beach

2:55

community in this country, I

2:58

guess thinking or hoping that somehow she

3:00

had evaded responsibility for this crime and

3:03

she could go on with her life, you know,

3:05

as if nothing happened, was so telling. But I

3:08

mean, it's magical thinking

3:10

and it's desperation and the

3:13

rest of it. But the

3:15

fact that she would go to the trouble of

3:17

getting plastic surgery to try to make her face

3:19

look different and she would color her hair, but

3:22

her hair was so important to her that she

3:24

wouldn't do the obvious thing and just... Cut

3:26

it off. Cut it off, yeah.

3:29

Getting plastic surgery to avoid detection

3:32

is like, first of all, it's like

3:35

something out of like the 50s and 60s, you

3:37

know. Well, it's like from watching a James Bond

3:39

movie or something, right? Yeah. And also, by the way,

3:41

like, unless you've got like a couple of hundred

3:43

thousand dollars, it's not going to change your look

3:45

so much that you won't be recognized by law enforcement.

3:47

No, no, you can barely tell the difference at all,

3:49

in fact. But what was fascinating

3:51

to me was that the plastic surgeon who

3:54

spoke to us, his story about

3:56

her behavior was fascinating and that she did

3:58

not want to have her face. photograph taken

4:00

before, were at any time

4:02

during the process. And she, you

4:04

know, she wore a mask in and she had

4:06

her most of her face covered the whole time

4:08

and clearly was somebody who was trying to hide

4:10

from any photographs. Do we know

4:12

how much money she paid for that plastic surgery?

4:16

Yeah, we had the bill. I forget offhand what

4:18

it was. It was much less than it would

4:20

cost in the United States. Let me put it

4:22

that way. Okay, well, I mean, look,

4:24

she didn't come out looking bad, but she

4:26

certainly didn't disguise herself in the way that

4:28

she wanted. She did not. She did not.

4:31

I found it fascinating to detectives. We

4:34

were, we questioned them a little bit about why

4:36

it took them so long for the

4:38

marshals to get their butts down there to Costa

4:40

Rica to do the looking. And then they

4:42

explained to us how it works. If you

4:45

really want to find somebody in a country

4:47

of several million people, if

4:49

you just kind of fly down there and start going,

4:51

it's just not going to work out. You'll never find

4:53

them. So you get the US consulate involved and

4:55

you get people on the ground

4:57

there already to kind of try

4:59

to sector out the country for you and figure out

5:02

where to look. It was difficult

5:04

to do this because most of the photographs of

5:07

her were her kind of grinning away. They wanted

5:09

one of her not smiling. I thought

5:11

that was very clever of them. Yeah. Yeah. And

5:13

they spent some time, some extra time to get

5:15

that photograph. And, you know, that

5:18

was what did it. They were able to

5:20

look into her eyes as they saw it

5:22

in that unsmiling photograph. And they

5:24

knew for sure they had their woman.

5:27

I just thought that was all very smart

5:30

detective work. It was good. And actually

5:32

having one of their agents take

5:34

the yoga classes to see

5:36

whether or not she was an instructor.

5:38

Then once again, her magical thinking had

5:40

her trying to evade capture. Right up

5:42

until the last moment, she picked the

5:44

lock on her handcuffs. Well, again,

5:47

it's these decisions made in desperation,

5:49

right? What would make her

5:51

think, what in heaven's name would

5:53

make her think that she could, while she was in

5:55

custody, sneak a pin into her hand and then use

5:57

it to take off her handcuffs in some of the

5:59

places? run fast

6:01

enough to evade capture and what, leave

6:04

the country again? Get to an airport

6:06

somehow with no money at

6:08

all? Get on a plane and fly to, I

6:10

don't know where this time. No

6:12

money, no idea and wearing, you

6:15

know, wearing jail clothing. I know,

6:17

bizarre. I mean, she did a

6:19

lot of what would be,

6:21

you know, sort of objectively speaking, smart things

6:24

to, you know, get off the grid, get

6:26

away and it didn't work. They found her.

6:28

Yeah, they would have been smart things 15

6:30

or 20 years ago. They're not anymore.

6:32

You know, it's very, very difficult to commit that

6:34

kind of a crime and get away with it

6:36

nowadays because of the fact

6:39

that you're tracked everywhere you go. If you've got a

6:41

cell phone with you, you're tracked whether it's on or

6:43

off. If you're driving around in a car, that car

6:45

records where you go and when you go there. I

6:48

did not realize that your car can give

6:50

law enforcement as much information as it did.

6:52

I know that in the Murdoch case in

6:54

South Carolina, that was a similar thing. They

6:56

got a lot of info on the car.

6:58

Yes. I was surprised by that. I

7:00

had no idea. A couple other

7:03

things. I mean, they

7:05

used Facebook to help find her, which

7:08

was clever. And the thing about the app,

7:11

about Caitlin using the

7:14

cycling app to- Strava.

7:16

Yeah. Yeah. That was

7:19

creepy. That was creepy. Well, that told

7:21

you that she was planning this and that this

7:23

wasn't the spur of the moment thing.

7:26

But the Strava thing was weird. When

7:29

you go online, if

7:32

you're a famous cyclist as

7:34

Mo was, automatically you put up

7:36

all your rides on Strava so

7:38

that other cyclists can see where

7:40

you're riding and can kind of

7:42

follow your progress. Probably

7:45

never occurred to her that that was a

7:47

way that could lead someone to her for

7:49

a terrible reason. No.

7:52

No. Watching her all that

7:54

day and then back to

7:56

that little apartment. That

8:00

ring camera video and the audio the

8:02

came through. It was really chill again.

8:05

And was telling us. You

8:07

know all the victims about whom we

8:09

do stories are people I wish I'd

8:11

known. And know Wilson ranks very

8:14

high on that list because everything that

8:16

I heard about her was about what

8:18

a good person she was. What?

8:21

A kind person she was what a humble person

8:23

she was and so my you would wanna know.

8:25

So. You know you've really

8:28

begin to feel more connected to

8:30

this whole business when you know

8:32

more about the victim. And

8:35

then. To hear that. Sound.

8:37

To hear those screens to recognize

8:40

that was her being murdered. That

8:43

at hit pretty are. Better

8:47

at that was that was black. I agree

8:49

that was really chilly. And

8:51

say well, Let's.

8:54

Let's take a break when we come back.

8:56

We have an extra clip from one of

8:59

Collins interviews of police did not make him

9:01

in the Bronx. Hey

9:08

guys, Willie Geist Year! Remind you

9:10

to check out the Sunday Sit

9:12

Down Podcasts are this week's episode.

9:14

I get together with Larry David

9:16

to talk about the bittersweet end

9:18

of his iconic series, Curb Your

9:20

Enthusiasm and why on earth he

9:22

decided to cast me. On.

9:24

His show. In this final season

9:26

you can get our conversation now

9:29

for for rape. Or. Every

9:31

download your podcasts. He

9:33

would lie his way into their

9:35

dreams, then twist them into a

9:37

nightmare disguised as far or do

9:39

it again until a group of

9:41

women banded together to put him

9:43

behind bars and keep him there

9:46

to participate fiercely in what happens

9:48

next. I'm Keith Morris and and

9:50

This is Murder and the Hollywood

9:52

Hills and All New podcast from

9:54

Dateline to listen to the latest

9:56

episodes each completely free you can

9:58

find and fellow Murder. in the

10:00

Hollywood Hills on Amazon Music. How

10:07

many times, I may not

10:09

know the exact number, but I'm guessing that

10:11

you and producers reached out to Colin any

10:14

number of times to try to get him to sit down.

10:17

A lot of times, a lot of times.

10:20

Colin is an interesting character. He was

10:22

a big star in the cycle racing

10:24

world. You

10:27

know, he had big companies sponsoring him right,

10:29

left, and center. He had a happening life,

10:31

and all of that came crashing down when

10:33

this happened, every single bit of it. His

10:36

career is in the toilet. He's just a very

10:38

unhappy guy. I don't blame

10:40

him. I suppose I would be too. Anybody

10:43

would be. You have to wonder.

10:46

Yeah. I mean, we miss certain signs, but... I

10:49

mean, he wasn't charged with any crime. No

10:51

one seems to believe that he was actually involved in

10:53

this. But come on. Like,

10:56

do not tell me, pal, that you were

10:58

not aware of the fact that your

11:00

girlfriend and this woman did not get along,

11:02

that there was some significant bad blood, that

11:05

your girlfriend clearly had talked about Moe

11:07

any number of times. I mean, if you're the

11:10

woman and you get to the point where you're

11:12

calling the other woman to essentially say, leave my

11:14

guy alone, the guy knows about it. Who knows

11:16

what his motivations were. I got the sense that

11:18

if somebody tried to hold his world together, like

11:20

if he just pretended that none of this happened

11:23

or that the people closest to

11:25

him didn't do this thing,

11:27

that life would go on as it

11:29

was before. But it's

11:31

too late for that. Okay.

11:33

So you've brought extra sound with

11:35

you. You've brought us a present.

11:38

Indeed. This is a piece of

11:40

tape that did not make it into the broadcast. Let's

11:43

listen to that. This is Colin being

11:46

interrogated by police early on. I

11:48

think in your gut, you know what happened.

11:50

I think you're trying to protect Caitlin right

11:52

now, which is understandable. I'm just.

11:55

But understand, I don't want you to

11:57

get wrapped up in anything. I have

11:59

no idea. What she did, what do I

12:01

think she did? Things are

12:04

sounding very strange. And

12:06

I don't have evidence.

12:10

What do you want me to say? Well, you care about

12:13

Mo, right? Yeah. And

12:16

so, something happened to Mo.

12:18

Something horrible happened to Mo. And

12:21

I think you know what happened. Is

12:24

Caitlyn capable of hurting Mo? I

12:27

could not imagine her

12:29

capable of hurting anyone. To be quite

12:31

honest. My impression

12:33

of her is confrontation adverse.

12:37

One last thing. What do you think? Is she

12:39

capable of hurting someone? I wouldn't be the first

12:41

person who I think is capable of

12:43

doing this. I would never in a

12:45

million years have someone

12:48

in their house with my mother who

12:50

I think is capable of this. The

12:53

answer is no. I don't believe it. Okay,

12:56

you don't believe it. She's confrontation

12:58

adverse. But you give

13:00

Mo a different name

13:02

in your phone? That

13:04

is the answer to somebody who wants

13:07

to avoid a confrontation. Absolutely. I

13:10

don't know whether he is just saying

13:12

essentially, I know this person. I have

13:15

loved this person. I can't conceive of her

13:17

committing murder. Even though I know

13:19

she's a little angry and she flies out the handle

13:21

sometimes. I don't think of her as a killer. This

13:26

is not a conversation with your

13:28

friends over a beer. This

13:31

is one of those little tiny rooms with the cops.

13:33

There's been a murder

13:35

committed. Come on. In

13:40

his interview, he

13:42

describes Caitlyn as one of

13:44

the least volatile women he's

13:46

ever dated. I mean, you're

13:48

the guy, clearly. Yeah.

13:51

I mean, who else were you going out

13:53

with, Ma Barker? I

13:56

mean... I never seen

13:58

her, mind you, to whom we spoke. you

14:00

know, would say that she was not

14:04

a violent person, but on the other hand, we

14:06

did talk to some people too also

14:08

who heard her talking at parties

14:10

and other places about how she

14:12

would do terrible things to Mo

14:15

Wilson. Yes. The occasion ever

14:17

arose. I mean, this is, you know,

14:20

this is fatal attraction. This is the

14:22

thing I kept thinking of. And

14:24

you know, this is your classic love

14:26

triangle. You bet. It's

14:29

jealousy as written by Shakespeare and, and,

14:32

uh, Kaitlyn Armstrong. Now, um,

14:34

I didn't get married until I was 60 years

14:37

old. Uh, you're 60? I

14:40

know I'm way older than that now, but I didn't

14:42

really admit I didn't get married until I was

14:44

going to. I had you for about 35. Oh,

14:47

this is good. I like this. I

14:49

like this Keith. Um, yeah. Um,

14:52

spoiler alert. It's not going to

14:54

last. Uh, yeah. But

14:57

yeah, I was single until I was 60.

15:00

Uh, and Kaitlyn Armstrong

15:02

is recognizable

15:04

to me. I dated women who

15:06

go through your phone, women who,

15:08

uh, one

15:10

followed me around town or said she did.

15:12

I never knew whether she really did. Um,

15:16

another, uh, was very interested

15:18

in, in, in making sure that I

15:20

never had contact with certain people. I'm

15:22

here to tell you. Life is

15:24

too short to be with somebody who doesn't

15:26

have any boundaries, but this idea that, you

15:29

know, I mean, taking a

15:31

life for this romantic relationship,

15:33

which maybe did or didn't exist, I,

15:35

nobody even really knows. I mean, wrecking,

15:38

ending her life, wrecking your life,

15:41

wrecking her family's life, wrecking your

15:43

family's life. This is insane.

15:45

Yeah. I would have to agree with you. What

15:48

about Kaitlyn's family? Uh, they,

15:51

you know, they declined their every effort and,

15:53

you know, we get it, we understand and

15:55

we're not going to push you on

15:57

it. And we didn't. They're caught in

15:59

a, in a. particularly difficult emotional vice, they'll have

16:01

to deal with it for the rest of their

16:03

lives. I'm prepared to believe they

16:05

probably never saw that coming, you know. Yeah. And

16:08

again, just because you know somebody has a temper

16:10

or that they can be jealous, that does not

16:12

translate to you expecting that they're going to commit

16:14

a murder. No, no, she's, you know,

16:17

she's the one they knew is the big

16:19

sister who could be counted on and the fun one

16:21

who went off and traveled the world and did yoga,

16:23

etc, etc. All things that

16:26

you just do not associate with somebody who

16:28

is capable of committing a homicide. All

16:30

right, after the break, we will come

16:33

back and we will answer your questions

16:35

about the episode from social media. Hello,

16:38

I'm Keith Morris. It

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will tell you about

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ready for what's coming? Okay.

18:14

Let's get to some viewer and

18:16

listener mail. And the first one

18:18

is from David in Malibu. Hey,

18:20

we know at David and Malibu.

18:22

Well, this one says, Josh, did

18:26

you take up skiing because Liz

18:28

told me you're really going downhill. Oh,

18:31

wait a minute. That's not, that wasn't

18:33

viewer mail. That's just a text. Nevermind.

18:35

Yeah. Sorry. Well,

18:37

you know, it's a, it's a astute remark, I

18:40

must say. Yeah. So

18:43

we got a fair number of pieces of mail

18:45

about the defense attorney. Yes.

18:50

Yes. Who says, what if I told

18:52

you that everything you've said is

18:54

wrong and that, and that the government's evidence

18:57

is going to acquit her, right? Yeah.

19:00

So here's a couple. What

19:02

if I told you that you look like

19:04

a smarmy, ex-blitive deleted, you

19:06

sir, do not deserve to sit in

19:08

Keith Morrison's vicinity or even breathe the

19:11

same air. That's from

19:13

Sherry. Oh my goodness. Yeah.

19:17

I frequently feel that exact same

19:19

way, but yeah. Well, you

19:21

know, I have to say, I mean,

19:24

I did two interviews with a man first when he was being

19:27

all full of bravado at the beginning of the

19:29

case. And yeah, and it was, there was a

19:31

kind of a strategy at play there, which was,

19:33

um, that he thought

19:35

if he could get this fast forwarded to get

19:37

the case on as quickly as possible, he would

19:40

have a chance to, you know, put it, put

19:42

the case on, put his defense case on before

19:44

the prosecution had a chance to get all of

19:46

his ducks in a room. But

19:48

in the end, when he came back from

19:50

the second interview, he was chastened. He

19:52

was very chastened. He comes from a

19:54

family of attorneys. I can only imagine

19:56

who chastened him, but he was determined

19:59

not to say. anything at all. Well,

20:01

you know, look, I mean, if I were

20:03

the defendant, I might want that kind of

20:05

in-your-face bravado that he was sort of demonstrating.

20:08

And then anybody who infuses my client doesn't

20:10

know what they're talking about. I mean, you

20:12

and I both covered plenty of attorneys who

20:14

come in with guns blazing, and then the

20:17

verdict ends up, you know, changing their tune

20:19

a little bit. Yeah, but you got to

20:21

have something to back it up. You know,

20:23

you have to have more than just empty

20:25

bravado, which is, you know, essentially what he

20:27

was dealing in. Felicia, a

20:30

longtime friend of ours here, says,

20:32

I would love to see your defense attorney's explanation. What

20:35

if I told you she wasn't trying to flee, but

20:37

was just trying to stretch her legs? Yeah. Yeah.

20:42

Mark Sardella, who I read all the time

20:44

on social media, had an interesting

20:47

point, which I didn't think about earlier,

20:49

which is they have her gun as

20:51

the murder weapon. That's not a circumstantial

20:53

case. Well,

20:57

you know, in the sense that other people had access to

20:59

the gun, it remained somewhat circumstantial.

21:01

And they had everything else under the

21:04

sun. I mean, when he said

21:06

it was a circumstantial case, I think he was sort of, what

21:08

is it they do that

21:10

kind of play, my case is not as strong as

21:12

I would like it to be game. But

21:15

the case was very solid. And

21:17

the actual circumstantial evidence was as good

21:19

as any circumstantial evidence I've ever seen.

21:22

And I begin to think that that shouldn't be called

21:24

circumstantial. You know, the fact that they got the

21:27

actual sound of the murder, the fact that

21:29

they've got her car at the murder

21:31

scene. Yeah, I mean, this

21:33

was a pretty strong case. Yeah.

21:37

One chicklet says, I wonder if her sister

21:39

is being prosecuted for the passport shenanigans. I

21:41

mean, the answer is no, she's not, right?

21:43

That is correct. The answer is no. Because

21:45

there's no proof that Caitlyn didn't actually steal

21:47

it. Right. And that's

21:49

about the best we can say. Others

21:52

may have a more definitive idea about

21:54

what happened there, but they're not revealing it.

21:57

If so. All right.? Nicky

22:00

New Vogue says that the the

22:02

Surfer done deal. Akerson is the

22:04

only person that ever saw a

22:07

porn on camera interview topless on

22:09

this show and he must be

22:11

protected at all costs such a

22:13

day. I can see why since

22:15

you might. Twitter. I can

22:17

remember anybody else topless on this

22:19

program. I can either as I was

22:21

at said was kind of of. A

22:24

one and only as and oh you

22:26

know I did stories years ago, but

22:29

this was in the pre crime days.

22:31

I did stories about this unbelievable rescue

22:33

of a guy in the water off

22:35

Hawaii and I think there might have

22:37

been some are some shirtless people in

22:39

that. but during possibly but in the

22:41

in the a date like era I

22:43

certainly didn't think of anybody. In

22:46

our i just have to confess it

22:48

is for hims a pre crime era

22:50

I am myself went topless an honor

22:53

story but Wales. Which. Was

22:55

really utterly embarrassing time and

22:57

of our of one of

22:59

the things that was mentioned

23:01

the Snarly A questions more

23:03

does information is about the

23:05

ride for mile event. Ah

23:07

alright gonna be on there

23:09

May eleventh in Sparks. That.

23:15

Is talking date line for this week's

23:17

cheese. Side. You. Oh

23:19

Josh Josh I do is always such

23:22

a pleasure! How did you

23:24

manage to make that sounds so

23:26

phony and yet? Soldiers and a

23:28

society that ah thanks everybody for

23:30

listening. Remember if you have any

23:33

questions for us, Berber, Baylor in

23:35

general or about any of our

23:37

episodes are you can reach out

23:39

to as On Social at Dateline

23:41

Nbc see Rice on day One.