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in all states and situations. Hi

0:34

everybody, I'm Josh Mankiewicz and we're talking Dateline

0:36

today with Dennis Murphy. Hi Dennis. Hey bud,

0:38

how are you? Good to see you. It's

0:40

been a while. Nice to see you. This

0:43

episode of Dennis's is called The Road Trip.

0:45

Now, if you have not seen it or

0:47

if you haven't listened to it, watched it

0:49

on TV, the link to the episode is

0:51

in the description to this episode of Talking

0:54

Dateline. So go there and listen to it.

0:56

You can also watch it on TV or

0:58

stream it on Peacock and then

1:00

come back here and we'll talk about it. OK,

1:03

just to recap, this is the story of

1:05

Teresa Sievers, a holistic doctor in Florida who

1:07

was found dead in her home back in

1:09

2015. She'd been

1:11

murdered, blunt force trauma with a hammer.

1:14

Police got a chance tip, traveled from Florida

1:16

to Missouri in search of a killer. It

1:19

turned out the actual mastermind was a lot

1:21

closer to home. Teresa's

1:23

husband, Mark, had hired his

1:25

childhood best friend and

1:28

his childhood best friend's best friend, a

1:31

guy named Jimmy, to come to Florida to

1:33

kill Teresa while Mark was out of town,

1:36

provably out of town. That was his alibi. And

1:39

there were plenty of twists and turns along the

1:41

way. We will talk about those today. Today,

1:44

Dennis has a clip he's going to play for us

1:46

from an interview that did not make the episode. And

1:48

then we're also going to answer some of your questions

1:50

about the episode that came in on social media. I

1:56

do not know where to begin with

1:58

this. Isn't this absolutely fiend. Josh,

2:00

it's the strangest one in my

2:02

memory. Josh is

2:21

so complicated, I feel like I ought to be serving

2:23

all other viewers a cup of espresso to

2:45

get their brains firing up so they can follow it,

2:47

because it's a very complex journey. All the whys and

2:49

what's-a-these things, I don't think we ever get an answer,

2:51

but I think with people

2:53

watching this episode, which I'm so glad

2:55

we're playing again, they're going to get

2:57

all the information they need. I guess

2:59

money is sometimes enough to make people

3:01

do anything. This is just breathtaking,

3:03

and it just wrecks so

3:06

many people's lives along the

3:08

way, including the guy who

3:10

blamed it. As I inevitably ask somebody in the

3:12

course of these things, Josh, I say, how is

3:15

this guy's life better with his wife, with her

3:17

head bludgeoned in the kitchen of their home? And

3:19

the victim was a wonderful person. Dr. Severs had

3:22

a very well-regarded practice down

3:24

in Southwest Florida. She

3:26

regarded herself as a wellness doctor, a

3:29

holistic healer. She talked to her patients

3:31

as much about nutrition as she would

3:33

about diagnostic tests and prescription medicines. She

3:36

really got into the

3:38

lives of her patients and helped them so much. Nobody

3:41

deserves to be killed like this. Dr.

3:43

Severs comes into her house and all

3:46

we know is that somebody was upon her

3:48

and literally bashed her head

3:50

in with a common hammer, and

3:53

nothing in the scene explains itself. So,

3:55

of course, everybody says, where's the husband? We Need to talk to

3:57

him and bring him in. He comes down. He

4:00

ends up in the police interview room

4:02

and I think it's a very remarkable

4:04

that a tape to watch it really

4:06

is you know you can look at.

4:08

is this guy really stricken or is

4:11

he a graduate of the Bad Sammy

4:13

Actor Academy? Be his way over the

4:15

top of Oatmeal or am I mean

4:17

I? I? I presume. You know he's

4:19

seen Dateline before in which people are

4:21

frequently accused of being. You. Know

4:23

to business like their ally and for the

4:25

life insurance the next day. they don't seem

4:28

to be shedding any tears they don't want

4:30

to command. and this certainly wasn't bad. I'm

4:32

in disguise blaming himself and his way. I'm

4:34

caught on. And Milan where you just alluding

4:36

to Josh where the cops leave the room

4:38

as they often do in a camera continues

4:40

to roll and the watch the suspect kind

4:42

of talk to themselves in this guy talks

4:44

to himself as like he's reading from a

4:46

soliloquy. What

4:51

can I don't. I

4:53

was with him. When just. Icing.

5:02

Being upset in the interviews one thing

5:05

I think. Toss.

5:07

It yourself and the dead person after

5:09

the investigators have left the room. I

5:11

mean it's like Jody areas doing yoga

5:13

this disaster or after the cops less

5:15

the row of York. I knew him

5:17

well right? Yes there are some things

5:19

you do that but that are going

5:21

to attract attention. And mark denim I

5:23

mean just for me as a film

5:25

critic of countless interrogation scene so far

5:27

I thought them on a flight always

5:29

well as Asher I thought I thought

5:32

as much to my was overwhelmingly male

5:34

here. Yeah course he gets caught updated

5:36

asking the questions. Will how the marriage everything

5:38

own okay and he you know yellow these

5:40

I said no We were in love in

5:42

it Will They were A couple of times

5:44

we were in swing parties. We were swingers.

5:47

Soul. Of a sudden the conversation

5:49

tones change. Tell me more about being

5:51

swingers. And. do you

5:53

have any names of women and all of a

5:56

sudden as pure as the driven snow husband is

5:58

god names and pictures on his phone and intimate

6:01

videos and it's all

6:03

true. Well, I have

6:05

to say that having seen countless

6:08

people trying to get out of murders that

6:10

they were in fact involved in, him

6:13

letting them drag the swinging thing

6:15

out of him as

6:17

opposed to just admitting it was

6:20

probably one of the smarter things.

6:22

Well, it bought him time, didn't it? So

6:24

now you've got this husband who's

6:26

offered up names, each of

6:28

whom has to be talked to. And

6:31

well, and their spouses and their boyfriends,

6:33

it was going to occupy a lot

6:35

of investigative hours. I think my

6:37

favorite moment, Josh, is when out of

6:39

the blue, the detectives who are in Florida

6:41

get a call from rural Illinois and

6:43

there's a guy that runs a small airport

6:45

there, runs the tower and such, and he

6:47

says, I would like you to talk to

6:49

a woman who came in and

6:52

these two detectives. And they said, you know what?

6:54

You got our interest. We're calling a travel agent

6:56

now. We're bucking our way up there. And we

6:58

need to go now. And what

7:00

a convoluted trail it was because here this woman,

7:02

she was telling a story about a friend whose

7:05

daughter had just gotten married. And she has

7:07

a funny thing to say about this guy

7:10

who took off for Florida, right? You know, was

7:12

a newlywed and left his phone behind. And

7:14

his best friend was the husband of this woman who

7:17

got murdered in Florida. And she puts

7:19

together the most tantalizing bits of clues for

7:21

these detectives to work on. Maybe

7:24

we should give a tip of the hat to

7:26

Nancy Grace. Rose was watching one of the shows

7:28

in the old days and Nancy Grace was giving

7:30

the rundown on this awful murder of Dr. Teresa

7:32

Severs in Florida. And that's

7:34

when she started to percolate on this thing. Yeah.

7:37

Well, I'm going to see Nancy at CrimeCon. So

7:39

I will be sure to tell her that she

7:41

figures in a daylight story.

7:44

You know, I love it when Wayne

7:47

is talking to the cops and he

7:49

can't stop boasting. Yeah. He's

7:51

talking about how he's written all this

7:53

software and he's making all this money.

7:56

Where's your money going? What are

7:58

you spending it on? It's not

8:00

where you live and you don't seem to

8:03

be able to go outdoors with a shirt

8:05

on. Yeah, and there he is before you

8:07

rise in an interview room in shorts and

8:09

shirtless and you know, and is

8:12

proud to brag about himself as though he

8:14

is a prime-grade human being. Yeah,

8:16

no shoes, no shirt, no alibi.

8:18

Yeah. That's the... Yeah.

8:21

And then I love the part, Josh, about the

8:24

Garmin GPS before we all had GPS on our

8:26

phone. When the detectives went

8:28

up there to find this guy who

8:30

was mentioned by the woman

8:32

that rose, they find

8:34

a rental car and out of it they took

8:37

a Garmin tracking device. So

8:39

that's interesting, but they get it back to

8:41

their shop and they find there's no information

8:43

on it. This thing has been

8:45

wiped within an inch of its little plastic life, but

8:48

the cops, they didn't take no for an

8:50

answer and they put it through their atomic

8:52

radiation detection devices and they came up with

8:54

that route. And it was great to watch

8:56

it. I mean, the map lights up and

8:58

here they are leaving St. Louis and they're

9:00

going down around through Georgia. And

9:04

the Garmin device was registered

9:06

to the email, the real name

9:09

of a guy who became the confederaness of

9:11

the road trip buddy, Jimmy. And

9:15

oh, Josh, I love this. So on

9:17

the road to Fort Myers floor, this is an

9:19

1100 mile car trip. Wait,

9:21

it's an 1100 mile car trip

9:23

that you've got to have some

9:25

belief at the beginning of which

9:28

one of them thought to themselves, we're not going

9:30

to tell anybody we're making this trip. We're

9:33

trying to do this in a stealthy way because

9:35

we're going to commit a murder. So what does

9:37

the director reflect? They get to Georgia and stop

9:40

at a Chinese restaurant. They go inside, have a

9:42

meal. And then what does he do? He

9:44

rates the restaurant on Yelp. You

9:47

know what Yelp is? I know exactly what Yelp

9:49

is. I rate every single one of Keith's Dateline

9:51

episodes on Yelp and actually he's not doing terribly

9:53

well. So you're the one to me. So

9:56

yeah, I have to say this

9:58

is disorganized crime. This is,

10:00

you know, we're taking pictures on our

10:03

phone on the way down there. We're

10:07

stopping and raiding

10:09

a restaurant on Yelp, and we're later

10:12

gonna claim we didn't make this trip.

10:14

I was in Missouri the whole time.

10:16

I mean, again, talking about this organized

10:18

crime, the stuff that the two

10:20

killers buy at the Walmart. Oh, yeah. Some

10:23

was for fun later, and some was for

10:25

used, like, during the homicide. But they get

10:27

a t-shirt, they get a Budweiser t-shirt. And

10:30

then sort of a how to

10:32

kill somebody kit. They got lockpicks

10:35

and trash bags, and it's

10:37

everything you need to pull

10:39

this thing off. While we're

10:41

talking about how comically stupid

10:43

they are, it's stuff like

10:46

buying lockpicks that makes it

10:48

clear how deadly serious this

10:50

is, how awful it was,

10:52

that these two homicidal, conscienceless

10:54

jerks are heading

10:56

out on this mission, which is only gonna

10:58

end in the murder of someone innocent. Okay,

11:01

after the break, we are gonna come

11:03

back with an extra clip from Dennis'

11:05

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So prosecutors get their case. Good

12:46

for the girlfriend, for Jimmy's

12:48

girlfriend for fessing up and

12:51

you know, I mean whatever you may think of

12:53

him, and I don't think very much, he's the

12:55

father of her kid and you know,

12:58

she's doing the right thing. She gets a dramatic

13:00

confession out of him just just a chit chat

13:02

before they're tucking in for the night. Did

13:05

you kill her? Yeah. Well, how'd you

13:07

do it? Did you shoot her? No. I had

13:09

a hammer and then she adds this bit where

13:11

Jimmy was always known as the hammer. I

13:14

have to say I applaud

13:16

her honesty and her desire to to make

13:18

it clear that she's not involved in this.

13:20

Hey, how'd you like the retrieval of the

13:22

jumpsuit on the side of the road? The

13:25

detective says to her, let's go out there,

13:27

maybe you can point it out. And

13:29

they go out to the stretch of highway and lo

13:32

and behold, there is a massive jumpsuit

13:34

and you know, it's another one of those

13:36

things. You know,

13:38

one of the things that episodes like

13:40

this really illustrate is, you know, how

13:43

it is getting harder and harder and

13:45

harder to get away with murder in

13:47

a way that it wasn't before.

13:49

I mean, like today, like there

13:52

probably would be doorbell video of the two

13:54

killers arriving at the house, either either from

13:57

the Seavers house or from the house down

13:59

the block. it's just harder and harder

14:01

to hide. We've had a bunch of those

14:03

stories on Dateline recently. You know, getting

14:05

information off the garment or now your phone.

14:08

And then it turned out that the FBI

14:10

lab or the police lab or the state

14:12

lab was able to retrieve digital

14:14

information off a device that it wasn't

14:16

before. No, we say good night evidence

14:18

when it comes into court too. Yeah.

14:20

In part because of all those TV

14:23

shows in which forensics sort of play

14:25

a lead role, like juries are completely

14:27

ready for that. They want it and

14:29

they convict on the basis of it. And I

14:32

don't have trouble. I think it's good evidence. Right.

14:34

But I mean, it was only what,

14:36

30 years ago when prosecutors were having

14:39

to explain what DNA was and why

14:41

it was better than fingerprints. Today, juries

14:43

take a lot of that forensic technical

14:45

information sort of on faith, which makes

14:47

it easier to convict and easier to

14:50

build a case. When I started out

14:52

as a young guy with an 11

14:54

o'clock curfew going to trials in Houston,

14:56

Texas, in my first job, you'd see

14:58

Ray Source Haines, the great defense

15:01

lawyer in court. And

15:03

he could talk about blood, but he could

15:05

say blood type, you know, it's type O,

15:07

it's type A. It had none of the

15:10

refinements that the jurors absolutely use now to

15:12

convict and send away. Every year on Ray

15:14

Source Haines birthday, I published my favorite quote

15:16

of his from Twitter, which is, what's

15:19

money when you're looking at 25 to

15:21

life in the crossbar hotel? Just

15:24

give me your whole account. I'm glad

15:26

you know who he is. Guys like that

15:28

shouldn't be forgotten in the annals of criminal

15:30

history. So that gets us to court. We

15:33

got three guys and two of them are going to go

15:35

to trial. And Jimmy, the guy

15:37

who hasn't said much about what he was doing on

15:39

his road trip is up first. And

15:41

what's happened meanwhile, and we should probably talk about this, is they

15:43

got in a plea deal, which is very

15:46

important from the best friend, this

15:48

guy Wayne. Yeah, it turns

15:50

out he's not your ride or die best friend.

15:52

He folds, he takes 25 and

15:55

he's going to testify. First

15:57

squeal gets the deal. Another

16:00

important lawyer here is Liz Parker. They worked

16:02

a couple of trials with her. And

16:04

now she's in private practice, and she had this guy.

16:07

And she's his defense lawyer. This feels

16:09

like exactly the right place to play

16:11

our extra sound, which is from your

16:13

interview with Elizabeth Parker. So let's listen

16:16

to that now. This is part

16:18

of the interview that did not make your story. I

16:21

saw the state attorney's office in

16:23

the future filing first-degree murder charges against

16:26

Mr. Wright. They had laid out a

16:29

very compelling story that

16:31

Mr. Wright had premeditated,

16:34

had planned, had traveled

16:36

from Missouri to Florida to

16:38

kill Theresa Seavers. So

16:40

maybe there's a gurney and needle in your future here.

16:43

Absolutely. I certainly had to give the

16:45

realistic approach to my client that you're

16:47

looking at the death penalty if they

16:49

convict you. How did he react to that? It took

16:52

a while. I

16:54

think accepting

16:58

what he had done, even, and accepting that

17:00

he's going to have to testify against his

17:03

best friend, someone

17:05

that he'd grown up with, someone that he truly

17:07

cared about. So to save his life, he has to give

17:10

up his friend. Is that the calculus? Yes, he had

17:12

to give up his friend. And

17:14

we kind of had to go in

17:16

blind to this because they wanted to

17:18

hear what he had to say before

17:21

they would even consider offering a plea

17:23

deal. I think law

17:25

enforcement and the prosecutor were

17:27

still very skeptical of Mr.

17:30

Wright. And his testimony

17:32

alone was not going

17:34

to do it. We had to provide something more. What

17:36

do you got? We had the

17:38

phones. We had what the phone numbers were,

17:40

the burner phones that

17:42

they used, where they were purchased.

17:44

That was the evidence that linked

17:47

Curtis Wayne Wright to Mark Fevers,

17:50

uncontradicted, unrebutted, overwhelming

17:54

evidence. Liz, thanks again for

17:56

taking us behind the curtain and showing us how

17:58

many, many cases are made. the

18:00

plea. And you know, it's funny

18:02

because in TV shows and movies,

18:05

it's the prosecutor frequently

18:08

saying to the defendant, look,

18:11

you know, this is what's waiting

18:13

for you. Here's your opportunity to

18:15

flip on your friend and do

18:17

yourself some good. But in

18:20

a lot of cases, in real life, it

18:22

is the defense attorney. It is the person

18:24

you hired who says to you, this

18:27

is the time to say what you know and do

18:29

yourself some good. And that's what she did. And I

18:31

don't think there's any question that probably did her clients

18:33

some good. And he's going to be in there for

18:36

a good long time anyway. So, they're back in court

18:38

and this guy who has flipped courtesy

18:40

of Liz's working on him is

18:43

going to testify against Jimmy, the carmate. Jimmy

18:46

is acquitted of first degree murder,

18:48

despite bragging about it

18:51

to his girlfriend and clearly

18:53

going down there with the

18:55

idea that that's what he

18:57

was going to do. But he is still behind bars

18:59

for a long, long time. He's in

19:02

there literally. He's guilty of

19:04

second degree. But yeah, this guy Wayne's going

19:06

to come back for the other trial, which

19:08

is of his former best friend. The conspiracy

19:11

was made at a wedding party. I

19:13

need to have my wife killed. Will you

19:15

help me? It's a hundred thousand bucks in it

19:17

for you. And as we

19:19

both know, Josh, the prosecution has no burden of

19:22

proving motive. And they can suggest it. They can

19:24

make inferences, but they just have to lay out

19:26

the custody of physical evidence that leads to a

19:28

conviction. But jurors are eager

19:30

to hear why something happened. In this case,

19:33

we had offered a life insurance payout,

19:35

which is pretty handsome. He keeps custody

19:37

of his kids because she was going to take a hike

19:39

on him, allegedly. So

19:42

the stuff is there to be found, the motives.

19:45

So it then becomes a death penalty case. And

19:48

in Florida, the jury gets to vote

19:50

on recommendations to the judge. Should

19:53

this guy be put to death by the state or

19:55

not? The jury says, do them.

19:58

And it's up to the judge. And he says, I will. order

20:00

you to be put to death. Yeah,

20:02

that was a really chilling moment when the judge

20:05

pronounced the death sentence. So there are

20:07

two daughters and at the sentencing hearing,

20:10

they gave a very poignant kind of letter to

20:12

the judge saying, we've lost our mom and

20:15

now you're about to take our father. Will you please spare

20:17

him? Give him life. They're

20:19

certainly not in his corner in this thing at

20:21

all, but they're making a plea that they have

20:23

one living parent. So

20:25

now we don't know a whole lot

20:27

about that family now, right? Who's

20:30

raising those daughters? Well, in

20:32

a court appearance, they were awarded

20:34

to Reese's mother as the permanent

20:36

guardian. And then they sort of

20:38

drift out of the public record. We're told they

20:41

were doing well, that he has no

20:43

really access to them, Mark the father. And

20:45

as we speak, he's still on death row because it takes

20:47

a long time to process death cases. All

20:50

right, we're going to take a break now and

20:52

then we will be back to answer your questions

20:54

from social media. Hey, it's Mel Robbins. There

21:05

is a change you want to make right

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Access your special offer today. There

22:01

are some social media questions that came in

22:04

on this episode. This is about Mark's interview.

22:07

Harmony Keene writes, that was riveting. You'd think by

22:09

now spouse murderers would realize no matter what lunch

22:12

they go to to cover their tracks, the spouse

22:14

is going to be the obvious culprit 95% of

22:16

the time. I think

22:18

he did realize that, which is why he made

22:20

sure he was in another state when this happened

22:22

and thought, nobody's going to know if I get

22:24

my ninth grade friend to do this. That's

22:27

why I am conveniently at a family event,

22:29

her family's event. And

22:32

for all purposes, he's been the loving supportive

22:34

husband. But he's playing to that

22:37

because he knows that once he commissions her

22:39

killing, it's going to come down on him

22:41

and he's got to be ready to fight it. Felicious

22:44

1908, who is a friend

22:46

of mine in real life as well as on social media

22:48

says, it probably didn't sit well

22:50

with the jury seeing him just taking notes

22:52

while he's best he described killing his wife.

22:54

I think that's probably true. But

22:57

I mean, the whole thing was, I mean,

22:59

Mark's whole mean what one

23:01

of his many issues in this case

23:03

was not being aware how his behavior

23:06

would be perceived by others who were

23:08

watching him. As I always say, these

23:10

guys are not Lex Luthor, master criminal,

23:12

you know, it's their first

23:14

bite of the apple and they all screw up.

23:17

And in this case, their last bit

23:21

of heaven 1968 writes to us

23:23

that she was able to come to

23:26

that conclusion so quick. She's talking about

23:28

Rose. She definitely watches Dateline. Do

23:32

we know if that's true? I don't know. You

23:34

know, we're we're seen in the greater St. Louis

23:36

area, I believe we have a lot of people out there that

23:39

like watching us. So I

23:41

bet because I'm done now I'm tickled. I want to know if

23:44

Rose was one of our armchairs.

23:46

Loose book reader

23:48

T.N. Maybe Tennessee says

23:51

talking about Wayne's interview. Why is this man in

23:53

shorts with no shirt during his interview? Well, one

23:55

of them, he got pulled out of bed and

23:58

clearly did not put a shirt on before dragged

24:00

him down to the, to the who's gal. But

24:03

there's a second interview in which he's

24:05

similarly clad. I guess he just likes

24:07

being shirtless. Josh, I'm guessing he does

24:09

not have any pocket hankies. That's

24:12

probably true. That's a good point.

24:15

Barry Wine says, just think if Mark

24:17

had only skipped Curtis Wainwright's wedding, none

24:19

of them would have been caught. Well,

24:22

might have

24:24

happened. He probably wasn't thinking about it when he

24:26

RSVP'd. The moment, the moment would have passed. Yeah.

24:29

But here they are passing around canopies and you

24:31

know, they're going to have the DJ play music

24:33

and it's a wedding. And he's talking to this

24:35

guy about killing his wife. Pressley

24:39

Bill says, I've never seen somebody bald

24:41

dudes involved in a trial. I couldn't

24:43

tell anyone of them apart, including the

24:45

lawyer. There's a,

24:48

there's a club of, of

24:51

sort of beefy bald guys

24:53

in here. And yeah, that

24:55

was a birds of a

24:57

feather. Not me yet, but we're all going that way. Right.

25:01

Love for cards says I could

25:03

not handle them repeatedly calling Jimmy,

25:05

Mr. Rogers, because

25:07

Mr. Rogers, the one we all know,

25:10

Fred Rogers, he didn't hammer anybody. It

25:12

was not a lovely day in his neighborhood. No, it

25:14

was not. That is

25:17

talking Dateline for this week. Dennis. Thank

25:19

you as always. My pleasure, Josh. And

25:21

remember, if anybody has

25:24

any questions for us about stories or about

25:26

Dateline, you can reach

25:28

out to us on social

25:30

at at Dateline NBC. One

25:32

more thing. If you want to check out more

25:34

true crime from Dateline, we have a brand new

25:37

podcast for you called Dateline

25:39

Crew Crime Weekly with Andrea Canning.

25:41

And that's every Thursday. Andrea

25:44

and her guests are digging into the

25:46

biggest true crime stories of the week

25:48

and bringing you the latest on trials

25:50

and investigations around the country.

25:52

Dateline True Crime Weekly. So check that

25:54

out wherever you get your podcasts.

25:58

See you Fridays on Dateline. be

26:00

safe. Inspiration

26:31

and simple science-backed tools to help you

26:33

create a better life. Listen to me

26:35

and you'll feel motivated. All right. Listen

26:37

and follow the Mel Robbins podcast and

26:39

Apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen

26:42

to podcasts.