0:00

You know the

0:02

thing, but no one picked up

0:04

your thing And so you buried

0:07

the thing, but that's not the

0:09

end of the thing Don't you

0:12

laugh, Jaius, yet there's a spooky

0:14

surprise And though you cannot revise

0:16

it, nothing ever really dies Welcome

0:37

to Dead Pilots Society, the show that takes

0:39

comedy pilots from A-list writers that were sold

0:42

and developed at networks and streamers but never

0:44

produced and gives them the table reads they

0:46

never got a chance to have. I'm Andrew

0:49

Reich, the creator and host of Dead Pilots

0:51

Society. We've got a rare

0:53

live show coming up in January 2024.

0:56

It's going to be a good one. The show is Sunday, January

0:58

21st from 3 to 5. We're

1:02

going to be doing a script by Open

1:04

Mike Eagle and Mike Benner and

1:06

a script by Tommy Jonaghan. Casts are still coming

1:08

together. These are really good scripts. It's going to

1:11

be a great show. Go

1:13

to Elysian Theatre, E-L-Y-S-I-A-N

1:15

Theatre, with an er,

1:18

not a re, dot

1:20

com. Elysian theatre.com for

1:23

tickets. Sunday, January

1:27

21st, 3 o'clock at the

1:29

Elysian Theatre. This is the after

1:31

show for Fulfillment, featuring

1:34

my interview with Vali Chandrasekaran.

1:36

Vali is such a respected

1:38

veteran comedy writer. You'll

1:41

hear the crazy story of him getting his first writing gig

1:43

on My Name is Earl. He

1:45

went from there to 30 Rock and from there

1:47

to Modern Family. He talks

1:49

about creating a show with Chris Lloyd

1:51

from Modern Family that was starring Kelsey

1:54

Grammer and Alec Baldwin. It somehow did

1:56

not make it to TV. The

2:00

some really good stories about writing that

2:02

and advice about multi camera become writing

2:04

that he got from Chris Lloyd. yeah

2:07

we get some them they writing nuts

2:09

and bolts here. I love hearing about

2:11

Volleys approach to writing pilots. It's some

2:14

of the best advice you hear writers.

2:16

he didn't want to miss this one.

2:18

Here is my conversation with Volley Challenger

2:21

Saker on. When.

2:23

We did this read it was September

2:25

he heard him members like right before

2:27

the strike ended. Yeah now and we're

2:29

just like all on pins and Needles

2:32

and sectors as an hour talking and

2:34

you're like back at work strikes over

2:36

your ear. You're working on what? What

2:38

are you doing? the so thrilling I

2:41

am working Ah my friends. Quake.

2:43

The Gregorio isn't working with Aaron

2:45

Foster who has a writer and

2:47

podcast or and all around personality.

2:49

He has a clothing line legs

2:51

nary a very cool person but

2:53

she created a show that currently

2:56

I titled Six Sad but I

2:58

think is Beings Haynes but it's

3:00

very funny I just joined them

3:02

today. Actually this is my first

3:04

day here. I'm in an office

3:06

that has none of my personal

3:08

effects that at but I'm superstitious

3:10

about that anyway so that would.

3:13

Even if I were here for a few months

3:15

and and and know veteran writer ever decorates in

3:17

office. He I've been to. Typically

3:19

it's been a couple seasons before I've

3:22

done anything and I would just I

3:24

used to just leave my printed scripts

3:26

on the floor which we don't even

3:28

really do as much anymore and I

3:30

would track the progress of the season

3:32

based on how high that out the

3:35

paper realize compared to previous years and

3:37

then around season for I'd be like

3:39

okay I think I'll bring a book

3:41

it. is the fact that

3:43

i could not have not that not

3:45

artwork that through the wall the like

3:47

he i could i have a book

3:49

negative a photo know hammering in into

3:51

the law will and noise the star

3:53

who's visiting one time or product or

3:55

for if they were you do look

3:57

like you're in witness protection in the

4:00

the office that you're in right now,

4:02

but you know, it's, it's day one.

4:04

You can't Hollywood, baby. Yeah.

4:06

Well, that's awesome. I mean, working on

4:09

a show in this, in this

4:11

day and age, it's a,

4:13

it's incredible. It's very exciting.

4:16

I mean, that was part of the fun. I

4:18

was talking about the read we did with the

4:20

actors all afterwards. And I've seen some of them,

4:22

you know, we're just around since. And because

4:25

it happened during the strike and our

4:27

strike ended, I think that day. The

4:30

writers strike and the actors weren't,

4:32

weren't on strike for a lot longer. I

4:34

mean, they officially ratified their contract last week.

4:37

And it just was so fun to be making

4:40

something and recording something when we did

4:42

the read and it's similarly coming

4:44

here today, just seeing the snacks on

4:48

a TV screen, it's just fun to

4:50

remember. Right. And we came here because we all

4:52

like making stuff and we like sitting

4:54

around and trying to make people laugh. I

4:57

know. I mean, I, hopefully it won't get like

4:59

a lot harder to get actors now that the

5:01

strike is over, but yeah, certainly during the strike,

5:03

it was like, we're the only game in town.

5:05

I mean, I guess there's like, yeah, you can

5:07

do theater, but you know, that's a commitment and

5:09

like, this is just like, you know, actors want

5:11

to act. And, uh, we're

5:13

like, here come, come and act. And like

5:15

all sorts of, I mean, the cast that,

5:17

you know, you helped us put together for,

5:19

for this read was insane. It's like incredible.

5:21

It was insane. I couldn't believe it. You

5:23

guys pointed out. No network

5:26

would ever afford it. You would not

5:28

be able to put that cast together. Yeah.

5:31

It's like you would get those, you know, you get a couple

5:33

of them and they'd be like, sorry, the

5:35

rest of these have to be like brand new people that

5:38

no one's ever heard of because we've used our whole budget.

5:41

Yeah. And some of them,

5:43

uh, hopefully would have been ended up being great.

5:45

And that's how we get to know them. But

5:47

yeah, it's like a bunch of people you all

5:49

know already is wild. That never happens. I know.

5:52

It's, I'm just like looking at this list and it's

5:54

like, wow, that was just like crazy,

5:57

crazy cast. Well,

6:00

I want to talk, I definitely want to talk

6:02

about fulfillment, but I'm realizing just because you're someone

6:04

who, you know, I've heard your name for years

6:06

and years and we've got so many friends in

6:08

common and whatever, but we never really got a

6:10

chance to talk until like pick a line. So

6:12

I don't really know how like

6:15

your backstory and like, you

6:17

know, I guess your first

6:19

credit seems to be my name is Earl,

6:21

which is like an amazing show to be

6:23

like, if that was actually your first show,

6:25

like, how did this all happen

6:28

for you? I

6:30

so I wanted to be a comedy

6:32

writer my whole life. Like even when

6:34

I was a kid, I just loved

6:36

David Letterman. I loved the Conan O'Brien.

6:38

I was obsessed with those shows. And

6:41

I remember when I graduated

6:43

from high school in 1999, there was at that

6:45

point, the Internet

6:47

was that big. And I remember going to the

6:49

guidance counselor's office and like reading one of those

6:51

books about colleges and

6:54

things like that. And I remember in one

6:56

of the listings, it said like a lot

6:58

of the writers from David Letterman, you

7:00

know, started out here. And

7:02

that was the first moment it ever

7:04

occurred to me that Dave didn't just

7:06

sit behind that desk and in real

7:08

time come up with like all the

7:10

comments and jokes he was doing and

7:12

monologue jokes like I thought these, this

7:14

is the funniest person in the world.

7:16

And he just does it all himself.

7:18

He's funny. And like he brings in,

7:20

he probably watches the movies and stuff like that. He

7:24

would like shoot the bits that he did. But

7:26

I didn't know being a comedy writer was

7:28

something that you could do. I

7:31

grew up in a small town in Pennsylvania. So

7:33

after college, I moved

7:35

out to LA to wanting to become

7:37

a comedy writer. And

7:39

I didn't know if I could

7:41

make it. So I got a job working

7:44

at this consulting company called Boston Consulting Group.

7:46

And we did something called strategy

7:48

consulting, which I'm not even still

7:50

totally certain what that means. But

7:53

we would advise companies

7:55

on decisions that they

7:57

might not need to think about otherwise.

8:00

wasn't worth having an in-house person to

8:02

say, you should think

8:04

about this problem in this way, because they do

8:06

it once or twice a year. They would just

8:08

come to us. And I remember the

8:10

case I was working on is

8:12

a small medical devices company in

8:16

the Bay Area was trying to

8:18

enter the colonoscopy market. And

8:20

they came to us and they said, what

8:22

do we do? We make medical

8:25

devices, but should we build our

8:27

own colonoscope? Should we buy another

8:29

company that already makes colonoscopes? Should

8:32

we do a limited partnership with

8:34

somebody? In what way

8:36

do the finances make sense in our time to

8:38

market? How much money would we leave on the

8:40

table? And my boss turned

8:42

to me and said, Vali, figure out how

8:45

many colonoscopies are going to happen in the

8:47

United States and in the EU over the

8:49

next 10 years. So

8:52

I just made up a spreadsheet with the growth

8:55

of colonoscopies. And I

8:58

was doing it. And that was an interesting case,

9:00

because I was talking to doctors, reading medical papers,

9:02

and that's not my background. I said to computer

9:04

science. And I remember

9:06

being in this windowless conference room

9:08

in San Diego. And

9:10

I got a call from my

9:13

friend's agents, because I really didn't like this job.

9:15

And when I didn't have to work, I would

9:17

write spec scripts. And I wrote a

9:19

two and a half men spec script. And I sent it

9:21

out. And nobody responded to

9:23

me. And I really was

9:25

not enjoying being by myself in this

9:27

conference room every day. I

9:29

think I sent a follow up email saying,

9:31

did anybody read this? Is it any

9:34

good at all? And it just

9:36

so happened that my friend's agent had

9:39

read it and liked it and happened

9:41

to have staffed all his other clients

9:43

that year. And

9:45

this was at a time when upfronts mattered a

9:47

lot. So this was a period where for

9:50

people who don't know, all of the

9:52

networks would announce their fall schedule in

9:54

New York City in front of advertisers. And that's

9:57

how writers would find out what shows are on

9:59

the air. and what jobs are

10:01

available for that year. And it was

10:04

two weeks after upfronts and this agent

10:06

had stabbed all of his writers

10:08

and he said like, let me see if I can get

10:11

this guy a job. And he had

10:13

me meet with Greg Garcia who created My Name

10:15

is Earl. And I was coming back

10:17

from San Diego. I think I told my boss at

10:19

the time, I had a doctor's appointment

10:21

and I had to meet with a couple people at

10:23

My Name is Earl and it's a studio, which was

10:26

20th Century Fox and the network and BC. And

10:28

I kept coming down and my boss was like, you're

10:31

23, are you dying? Like who

10:33

has an actor's appointment? But

10:36

it ended up working out and I got

10:39

the job and Greg was an amazing boss.

10:42

And my first job ended up going for

10:44

four years, which never happened. Like, you know,

10:46

I'm sure lots of people have come on

10:48

the show and like, you finally get your

10:50

break and it's a great show and has

10:52

great actors in it. And for some reason,

10:54

it didn't get at that time, like the

10:57

80 million viewers, it only got like 65 million

10:59

viewers and

11:02

you do nine episodes and

11:05

that's the end of your year. And you have

11:07

to wait a whole calendar year at that time

11:09

until next year's upfront. But I

11:11

was really fortunate that that show

11:13

worked and it was a lot

11:16

of people who had never worked with each other

11:18

before, but we were all connected and that we grew

11:20

up in small towns and there

11:22

were people like Kat Lickle and John Hoberg, who

11:24

I know have done this podcast before and

11:26

Danielle Sanchez-Witsil and Hillary Winston and Victor

11:29

Fresco and my, like all these great

11:31

writers basically took me

11:33

under their wing inadvertently because we were all

11:35

just working there together and they taught me

11:37

how to be a TV writer. They taught

11:39

me what the job was. And

11:41

it was so fun and so

11:43

fantastic. And to this day, like if I

11:45

have any questions or like I'm thinking about

11:47

doing something, I call Greg, I call Danielle,

11:49

I call all these people. I got to

11:51

see them a lot during the strike in

11:54

a way that was fun too, to

11:57

be to be visible together. But that

11:59

was my first time. That's

12:01

an unbelievable story that you just

12:04

like that

12:06

the agents were like hip-pocketed you and

12:09

got you a job on a show that

12:12

ran for four years. That's incredible. That's wild.

12:14

Wow. So crazy. Yeah, I mean, it was

12:16

a fun show and I keep thinking I

12:18

tell my friends like if

12:20

it was the previous year, the show

12:23

everyone wanted to get on, which was a great

12:25

script and a great cast, was

12:27

Joey. But that ended like it

12:29

ended fast. Like everyone thinks like, oh, you know

12:31

when it's going to work out. Oh, God,

12:33

no one ever knows. I mean, the hot show is

12:35

like, you know, it's

12:38

never what people think it's going to be.

12:40

But I mean, so you must have like

12:42

a that that spec must have been really

12:45

great and be like your meeting must have been

12:47

I mean, where you had the

12:49

colonoscopy story I assume you like break that

12:51

out. That's a good one. But

12:54

I mean, that must have been a great me for him to

12:56

like take that shot. You

13:00

know, someone told me gave me a great piece of

13:02

advice because as I think I was preparing to meet

13:04

with Greg and I was meeting with people at the

13:07

studio, there was an executive at NBC at that time,

13:09

or 20th at the time, I think her name was

13:11

Amy Hartwick. And I didn't know what

13:13

to do. Like I would come in and slacks

13:15

and a button down shirt and my agents called

13:17

me and said like, you have to dress like

13:19

a writer. You gotta be a

13:21

slob. It's a little bit weird like you look like you're

13:23

an accountant and no one's going to take you seriously but

13:26

I was meeting with her and I asked I was

13:28

asking her what Greg was like, and whether,

13:31

whether I should come in with pitches or something

13:33

and she said, I think you would appreciate it

13:35

if you came in with pitches so I, I

13:37

came I went home and I read the

13:40

pilot and I thought about the characters and

13:42

my small town life and people I knew,

13:44

and I came into that

13:46

meeting and I tried. I

13:48

came up with some ideas that I pitched him and someone

13:50

else had told me sort of with

13:52

that is your job. I

13:56

remember a showrunner on a first year show has so much to

13:58

do that like they want to do that. would love

14:00

to help you develop as a writer. But

14:02

they don't have the time to do that,

14:04

maybe later. Your job is to

14:07

make Greg's life easier. Do everything you

14:09

can to try and make his life

14:11

easier. So if you have

14:13

any ideas or any jokes, like the jokes come

14:15

from your spec, that sensibility, it's hard to be

14:17

really funny in a meeting when you're a new

14:19

writer. I found, I'm not that kind of personality,

14:22

but I pitched some stories to him that I

14:24

thought would be funny. And I

14:27

found out later that he went back to the room

14:29

and he pitched it to the room and they liked

14:31

it and they ended up making it one of the

14:33

episodes. And he decided to hire

14:35

me because of that, I just did pitch there.

14:37

And I never would have

14:39

come in with ideas otherwise.

14:42

But now having been

14:44

on the other side of it, I'm so appreciative. When

14:46

people come in and they've thought about the show and

14:49

you sit there and you think, oh

14:51

my God, this person is gonna make not

14:53

only my life easier, but it's gonna be

14:55

fun in the room. Like, you

14:57

know, sometimes you're in, this

15:00

person is making everybody funnier. This person

15:02

is so funny and I'm

15:04

funnier and everyone else is funnier when they're

15:06

around. And those people with

15:08

those magic personalities are so great

15:11

to be around. They're so- That's

15:13

what you're always hoping walks

15:15

into the room. Like when you're staffing a

15:17

show is those people. And it's right. The

15:20

good thing about people coming and pitching ideas is it

15:22

could also work in the other way. Like, okay, this

15:24

person does not get what, it's very clear now that

15:26

this person doesn't really get the show or whatever we're doing.

15:29

It can work in both ways, but yeah,

15:32

someone who's like an actual idea

15:34

that could become a story, which is the

15:37

most valuable thing. Someone

15:39

comes into your room with that, like, yeah,

15:41

that person's gonna get hired. So

15:44

great. And people who are good at that

15:46

are so legendary. Like

15:48

your rooms, I

15:50

know names of people from friends that

15:53

I've never set eyes on. I don't know if

15:55

I would recognize them if I saw them, but

15:57

I know the bits that they do. because

16:00

they have sort of like traveled out through time. Well

16:03

you then, because you then worked, if you went from

16:05

My Name Is World to 30 Rock, right? So,

16:08

and you've got Robert Carlock who had like

16:10

weird total recall for everything that ever happened

16:12

in that friend's room. Like, cause I would

16:14

watch 30 Rock and I'm like, oh my

16:16

God, I remember the bit

16:18

that this is based on. And I

16:21

can't believe like Robert, like was he

16:23

taking notes? Like he remembered everything from

16:26

that friend's room and made use of so

16:28

much of it on 30 Rock. It was

16:30

crazy. So I'm sure you heard, you best have

16:32

heard Carlock telling stories from that friend's

16:34

room. Absolutely. He was the

16:37

first person I knew who was in

16:39

that room who would tell room bits

16:41

and stories from there. And I

16:43

mean, 30 Rock was a show that was so dense

16:46

with comedy, like Tina, Tina

16:49

knew when it had the emotion and had to

16:51

breathe, but like she also knew when we could

16:53

get away with just making it The Simpsons. And

16:56

so like there was a lot of room to pack

16:58

one more joke in. So

17:01

like if Robert had trouble,

17:05

he I'm sure being forced

17:07

to think about that room like kind

17:09

of illuminated stuff in the corners of

17:12

his brain to bring back. So

17:16

wait, so how did that, so my name

17:18

is Earl. You were there the whole time.

17:20

I was just four season run of that

17:22

show. And

17:25

then 30 Rock, I mean, that's

17:28

the show in New York. And

17:30

you had like, so tell me

17:32

about that happening. So I

17:35

loved 30 Rock as a fan when

17:37

I was on My Name is Earl.

17:39

I remember watching every single episode of

17:41

it. And I remember the moment in

17:43

season one, there was this Peeley Herman

17:45

episode. Paul Rubens played this character where

17:47

he was an Austrian

17:50

prince that is

17:52

so inbred that

17:54

he like barely can function, but Jenna

17:56

fell in love with him. And like, basically

17:59

she... wanted to be a princess. And

18:01

I remember watching the show and thinking like, I

18:04

can't believe they're getting to do this. This is

18:06

so much fun. I really want

18:08

to do it. And then, but I was on

18:10

Earl and having a blast. And then when Earl

18:12

ended, I really, really wanted to get on 30

18:15

Rocks. Like I submitted a script

18:17

to them. And I first met with

18:20

Robert and that meeting was good.

18:22

And I never met Robert before. And

18:25

I got a call a couple weeks, a

18:27

couple of days later that that meeting went

18:29

well and that I have to

18:31

meet Tina now. And this was after, so

18:33

30 Rock had won the Emmy three years

18:35

in a row and the Sarah Palin thing

18:38

had happened and Tina had already done

18:40

an update. So

18:43

Tina was like, I

18:46

don't mind. She was so funny and

18:48

so good at those jobs. And

18:51

I remember going in and being so nervous

18:53

to meet her. And on top of

18:55

that, I had to do

18:57

the meeting again. Robert was also in the

18:59

meeting. So like everything

19:01

I had pretended I had come up

19:03

with organically in the course of our

19:06

conversation as like a funny story, Robert

19:08

had already heard. So

19:10

I had to now do it in front of

19:12

a person. I like idolized so much, I was

19:15

scared of. And then had to like, I

19:17

don't know, like come up with new, new

19:20

casual material for the

19:23

meeting. But it was

19:25

still fun. And Tina's one of those people who's so good

19:27

and so great. And then Annie,

19:29

she is so skilled

19:31

that I, and Robert as well, but like

19:33

they're both so great that everyone

19:36

is their best selves in

19:38

that room for them. After the

19:40

show left, ended, I remember telling

19:43

them, it reminded me of a workout

19:46

that my track coach would make us do in high

19:48

school. And I'm not sure there's any value to this,

19:50

but he

19:52

would connect two runners

19:54

together with bungee cords. And the first

19:56

runner would take off. And

19:58

then like three seconds later, he would

20:00

have the second runner go and the bungee

20:03

cord from the first runner would kind of

20:05

like pull you forward and The

20:07

coach said that purpose of this workout was

20:09

to make you your muscles

20:11

Know what it felt like to run

20:13

a little faster so you could

20:16

like create new muscle memory Then I don't think

20:18

that actually makes sense But

20:21

in the context of 30 Rock being there

20:23

and watching Robert and Tina work It made

20:25

you realize like how much

20:27

faster your brain and then

20:29

better your brain can work Like the show

20:32

was so good. I thought And

20:34

so unlike anything else like it made

20:36

it I think trained us all to

20:39

like see like how funny You

20:42

individually could be try and try and

20:45

earn your place in that room Yeah,

20:47

what an amazing show and like it must have been

20:50

so fine. Oh the hours were a bit crazy,

20:52

but It

20:54

just hasn't been so much fun writing that show. It was

20:57

so fun and I was young I was in

20:59

my you know mid 20s so that I

21:01

just thought like who cares Right, you could

21:03

just pick up and move to New York and that

21:05

wasn't a big deal Right, you weren't like you're not

21:07

married at this. I was not married. I think I

21:09

got engaged I got

21:12

in I was get I just got engaged when

21:14

I got the call Telling

21:16

me that I had gotten tired. I think the

21:18

next day so my life was

21:20

very flexible and Everyone

21:23

was so funny. There was an element of Well,

21:26

what else would you be doing? What else would you not? In

21:30

fact on nights where we ended up not working late

21:33

we would leave and we

21:35

would just end up going to dinner together We

21:38

were with each other all the time. Yeah, that's kind

21:40

of what the friend's room was like It was just

21:42

like it were there crazy hours, but the you know,

21:44

we weren't we would still hang out Was

21:47

just you might as well be at work all those hours because

21:49

these are the people you're gonna be Hang

21:51

out with any anyway, and there's no one funnier.

21:53

And so yeah, I It's

21:57

amazing to have that experience like that's just

24:00

even so nuts to watch

24:03

at that time. And they had an idea and I

24:05

knew Alec a little bit. I

24:07

knew Alec from 30 Rock and he called

24:09

me and he said, Kelsey

24:11

and I have a, sold a

24:13

show to ABC and

24:15

we're looking for a writer. And I

24:18

said, well, what's the show? And he said,

24:20

Kelsey and I are in a show together.

24:24

And I was like, oh, so you need everything. But

24:26

it was a multicam and I said, I don't know,

24:29

I don't know how to do that. I've never

24:31

worked like this, but I think Chris Lloyd might

24:34

be somebody you loved and Kelsey knows him really

24:36

well. And I knew

24:38

the what the sort of jokes Alec likes

24:40

doing. But I said, modern families ending and

24:43

Chris Lloyd will wanna finish that. So if

24:45

you guys can wait a year, that

24:49

may be a good partnership, you

24:51

guys and Chris. And then modern

24:53

family ended and then Chris called

24:56

me and wanted to talk about the show.

24:58

And I was just telling him kind of

25:00

about Alec and what I thought they might

25:02

like based on my conversations. And

25:04

he very kindly asked if I would

25:06

like do it with him. And

25:09

I said, I don't really know anything about

25:11

this. And it was in a great experience

25:14

because I didn't know anything about multicam. And

25:16

then Chris who ran Frasier for years, kind

25:18

of like one-on-one in a room with me,

25:21

taught me what multicams are and how

25:23

they work. Cause I said to him, like, I

25:26

don't understand how on Cheers they never left

25:28

the bar for the first year. Like, how

25:31

did they tell stories like that? And

25:33

he said, like, it sounds crazy, but if

25:35

you come up with big enough characters that

25:38

everybody loves, when someone comes up

25:40

with a plan, they wanna do

25:42

something, you don't have to see it. And then

25:44

when they reenter the bar and they

25:46

sit at the top of the staircase, the

25:48

audience can tell from their expression what happened. And

25:50

then they laugh and then you follow it up.

25:53

And I still don't, it

25:55

still blows my mind. I spent my

25:58

entire life loving comedy. watching

26:00

shows like that but I never thought about

26:02

it so I didn't understand

26:05

how they did it and that and that was in friends

26:08

kind of blew it all open too because you

26:10

guys put so much more story like Frasier

26:12

pilot had five scenes in it how

26:15

many scenes did you guys have in a friend? I

26:18

mean so many because we always had three

26:21

storylines and you figure each

26:23

of those stories has like what

26:25

minimum six beats right

26:27

I mean so you know you've got

26:29

I mean you've got minimum like 18

26:32

scenes but probably more than

26:34

more than that and

26:37

many of those scenes had multiple stories in them

26:39

right because yeah and in like right because you

26:41

do have that thing I mean it's like it's

26:43

tell don't show often

26:45

which is such a weird thing to say like it

26:47

was against everything you've been told you're like no you

26:50

got to show this thing like no sometimes it's just

26:52

like hearing the characters just

26:54

talking about what happened off screen is

26:57

better because we actually don't really you know need you

26:59

don't always need to see it here certainly did that

27:01

even more than we do but sometimes it was just

27:03

like you'd get the beginning of a scene

27:05

you wouldn't really see it what you're really waiting for is

27:07

like the friends to be in Central Perk

27:09

telling each other about what

27:12

happened rather than you

27:14

showing the audience what happened so

27:17

yeah I mean that's what he's saying it's like telling

27:20

telling is what is what works at a multi-cam

27:22

what would it do you have other that's such

27:25

a good like you know that's

27:28

such good advice were there other little nuggets

27:30

like that that you remember when he was

27:32

like explaining about how to do

27:34

both the camps I mean

27:36

that that was the biggest one

27:38

that kind of blew my mind

27:40

and then he also said like

27:42

with these two actors that are

27:44

so great like well let's try

27:46

and do set it up

27:49

so that it feels like two

27:51

lions that can trade off circling

27:53

each other that

27:55

like what that's what he was like I

27:57

think that's what the audience wants from these

28:00

guys and that's what we fund for

28:02

it to like for one to never

28:04

know who would be in control of

28:07

the scene when the two of them are there

28:09

together and this is something I

28:11

never really thought about explicitly

28:13

before I started writing but it makes

28:16

sense now that you're mentioning that about multi-cam which

28:18

is what we really always almost

28:20

always want is to just watch our main

28:22

cast talking to each other so

28:25

even if that's we love

28:27

these people so even if they went

28:29

to go we went to show something but

28:31

it's just one of the members of the

28:33

cast it's less fun than

28:35

the other person hearing about it with

28:38

them because you just love these relationships

28:40

so much and it it

28:43

both seems antithetical but then this other thing

28:45

this other rule which is put your cast

28:47

that you love in scenes with each other

28:49

is the most important thing put

28:52

them in scenes together and give them attitudes and

28:54

then you're done if they like they

28:57

all have an attitude and the attitudes

29:00

are different you know then you're then

29:02

you're you're golden you're fine this person

29:04

thinks you should do x and this

29:06

person thinks you shouldn't the

29:09

scene writes itself you know it's just I

29:11

think they've got an attitude we know the

29:13

dynamics you know attitude plus dynamics dynamics should

29:16

be built in you know the characters and

29:18

then some people just have

29:20

to have different attitudes and let them talk about it well

29:23

I mean what was this what was

29:25

the premise of the show that you

29:27

guys came up with for like what

29:29

were the characters they were playing the

29:32

characters the premise was basically it was

29:34

a five scene multi-cam and the last

29:36

act was one long scene and the

29:38

premise was that it was

29:40

Alec and Kelsey and a third actor named

29:43

Alec Mappa who was really

29:45

funny and really fantastic and went

29:47

toe to toe with these guys

29:50

in a great way and they were

29:52

all roommates in Soho in the 80s

29:54

like when they were right after college

29:57

and one of them Kelsey

30:01

wanted to become the next Philip

30:03

Glass, like a composer, a musician,

30:05

and Alec wanted to be an

30:07

actor. And Alec kind of got

30:09

early success when he got on a soap opera

30:11

and went off. And

30:14

Kelsey and him always, like, locked

30:17

horns. And the three of them in the

30:19

pilot kind of come back because

30:21

there was a fourth roommate who died, and

30:23

they all see each other. And at the

30:26

beginning, there's a lot of chest popping about

30:28

how all three of them are doing great

30:30

with each other. And over

30:32

the course of it, we slowly

30:34

realize that they're all

30:37

lying. Like, Alec has gone

30:39

to jail for fraud, and

30:42

Kelsey never made it

30:44

as a composer, and no one would

30:46

know because no one listens to modern

30:48

classical music. And he's

30:50

teaching, and even that is

30:53

a bit of a lie because he's

30:55

not really even going in there anymore,

30:57

and everyone is staying at his house

30:59

right now. And over the course of

31:01

it, you realize that his wife left

31:04

him, and he has been waiting for

31:06

two years for her to come back,

31:09

and he hasn't been able to move

31:11

on from that. And their third roommate,

31:13

sort of the other shoe drops when

31:15

we realized, like, he still lives in

31:18

that same Soho apartment. And

31:20

over the years, like, he's gone

31:22

through a succession of roommates where

31:24

he's still living with 25-year-old roommates,

31:27

but they're now just way younger, and he has

31:29

to go to their improv openings and stuff

31:31

like that. And sort of all three of

31:33

them, it's Golden Girls. And

31:37

he needed to, like, come together and, like, see

31:40

each other and their weakness, but still love

31:42

each other and try and, like,

31:45

tell everybody, like, life isn't done with

31:47

us yet. Like, we have,

31:49

let's try and, like, pull it together and

31:51

live the lives that we hope to

31:53

have when we were younger. And they were great in it, all three

31:55

of them. And it

31:57

was directed by Jimmy Burroughs, who I know you've heard of. You

32:00

worked with a lot of friends and I idolized.

32:02

And I never worked for it. Like

32:04

he directed everything I'd ever loved. And

32:06

one of the first directors I'd ever

32:09

known, I noticed

32:11

their names and he lived in Florida

32:13

and he came in to

32:15

do it. And it was just, it

32:18

was just one of the coolest

32:20

experiences of my life to see Alex-

32:22

Conducting like to see Jimmy do what

32:24

he does with the cameras in that

32:26

way that only he does where he

32:28

can just like smoothly

32:31

ride them from scene to scene. I mean,

32:33

it is just, it's a master of this

32:36

form. Yeah, and it

32:38

doesn't feel static when he does it. And it's,

32:40

he's having so much fun and he's so great

32:42

with the actors. And I've always been

32:44

told like, Jimmy works with the actors

32:46

during the day and you get to come see

32:49

it later. And I don't know why,

32:51

but he let me just

32:53

like come peer in the

32:55

back and like watch what he was

32:57

working with them. And

32:59

to see how comfortable

33:02

he made the actors and how

33:04

he helped them find

33:06

the characters and the lines. It was

33:08

just, it was amazing experience to watch

33:11

someone that good at it. Who's done

33:13

it so that much and still be

33:15

working so hard to like try

33:17

and crack a new show. It was rad.

33:20

Yeah, he loves it still so

33:22

much. It's kind of like he gets the

33:24

same. And sometimes there's

33:26

like jokes that he's wanting to do

33:28

physical bits that are like a little

33:30

bit. You've seen them many

33:33

times before. He's just as amused

33:35

by them. Like the 50th time

33:37

as he was the first time

33:39

genuinely. Like he just gets excited

33:41

about, it's pretty infectious that

33:43

he just loves it so, so much.

33:46

Yeah, and to love the

33:48

art of it is so great. And there

33:50

are shots of his. I like the opening

33:52

of the Cheers pilot. I remember to this

33:54

day and I never noticed acting. Or

33:57

I didn't notice like camera movements when I was

33:59

a kid. But somehow he did

34:01

it without, made

34:03

me notice something without really showing

34:06

off that this is something special. Yeah.

34:10

So how did that show? Like what

34:12

happened? Like, I

34:14

don't know. I mean, they, it's all

34:16

as always is the case with pilots,

34:18

like they made it. They

34:23

we got a season pickup and we broke,

34:25

we got a great room together and we

34:27

broke half the season and then we shot

34:30

the pilot. And they,

34:32

you know, I feel like they didn't, they ended

34:35

up canceling us and they, I

34:38

think it maybe was not the time in that

34:40

year for a show about

34:42

three old men. Like

34:45

was that going to be ABC's brand then

34:47

two of them were white. I have, but

34:49

I am, I actually have

34:51

no idea. People give you reasons when

34:53

they don't want to make a show. And you

34:56

know, a little bit, it's like, I think you're

34:58

probably lying to me to say my things and

35:00

that's okay. Thank you for lying to me. Like

35:04

this, but I can say that Alec and

35:06

Kelsey and Alec Mappa were really great and

35:08

it was really fun working on the

35:10

show. And I don't know, had

35:13

we gotten to go on TV, maybe we would have

35:15

flopped and the testing showed that or maybe, and maybe

35:18

people would have wanted to check them out. I have

35:20

no, I have no, no idea.

35:24

I thought I was happy with how it came

35:26

out and I'm not always

35:28

happy. I

35:31

mean, it's such a cool experience, but you know, like

35:33

just have been able to do that with

35:36

Jimmy and Chris and those guys.

35:38

Like that's what a cool thing, whatever.

35:40

Yeah. So wait, so,

35:42

so what's the journey really needs to be the

35:44

destination as we often tell ourselves

35:46

and I think it's very hard to remember,

35:48

but yeah. If

35:53

you need a laugh and you're on the go,

35:55

try STOP, P O D C A S D

35:57

I. Are you trying to put

35:59

the name of the park? Yeah, I'm trying

36:01

to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give

36:03

it a try. Okay. If

36:05

you need a laugh and you're

36:08

on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It

36:11

will never fit. No, it will. Let me try.

36:14

If you need a laugh and

36:16

you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O.

36:19

Ah, we are so close. Stop

36:22

podcasting yourself. A podcast

36:25

from maximumfun.org. If

36:27

you need a laugh and you're on the go. So

36:31

was fulfillment like, you know,

36:33

coming off of that? I think

36:35

when in your little quick interview before the read, you

36:37

mentioned something about how you were like coming

36:39

off of a pilot experience and

36:41

feeling like, okay, agents bring me

36:43

stuff because I'm like,

36:46

is that the point you were

36:48

at? Yes, it was. It was

36:50

right after that show got canceled

36:52

and I was not expecting

36:54

it to get canceled because the scripts were

36:56

really funny and we were having

36:58

a really good time. But I

37:01

still, you know, I still worked for the studio and

37:03

I still had to come up with new shows and

37:05

I didn't really know what to do. I

37:08

was a little bit tapped

37:10

out. And I think I told my

37:12

managers, like, I'm interested in meeting

37:15

people or there's IP, anyone

37:17

who's creative, like that you think I would like,

37:19

you guys know me. I

37:21

told everybody this and my manager

37:24

asked if I would want to meet Zoe Deschanel. And

37:27

I said, of course, and I never met her before. I

37:29

was a huge fan of all her movies and the new

37:31

girl. And I think she's just

37:33

so skilled and talented and fantastic and

37:35

funny. And we

37:38

also had similar points in our lives. Like

37:40

she has a kid around my kid's age

37:42

and we're both married and we were talking

37:44

about the pandemic and all of that stuff. And

37:47

we were just chatting and we were just having

37:49

a good time. And

37:51

I wasn't really saying anything about like what I

37:53

wanted to write next. But at one point, as

37:55

I was enjoying chatting with her, I asked her,

37:57

is There any role.

38:00

Have you ever get jealous up like that? She

38:02

just thought like man I wish I had a

38:04

shot to play that. Play. That role

38:06

and he said. Let. Me:

38:08

think about it. Was. I really love

38:10

that she took the question seriously and

38:13

up to do that. And then two

38:15

days later she called me and she

38:17

said she would always with jealous of

38:20

Katherine Hepburn's role in bringing up baby.

38:23

And I I'd never seen that movie before

38:25

and I know I didn't really know. I've

38:27

heard of Katherine Hepburn's you Like what others

38:30

have been with a usable by the I

38:32

wasn't sure like what that meant. So then

38:34

I. Said. That was interesting

38:36

and and and so we start talking about

38:38

screwball comedies and how much she loves football

38:40

com a than her dad loved them as

38:42

you were Bob, wash them growing up and

38:44

then ice I will immediately bought. On.

38:47

Amazon screaming the movie and

38:49

I started watching it and

38:51

it's. So. Good it's

38:53

that it's Katherine Hepburn is so

38:55

funny, she's so weird in winning.

38:57

In the premise of the movie

39:00

is she falls in love with

39:02

his palaeontologist who's about to get

39:04

married and and it seemed follows

39:06

him out in bringing up baby.

39:09

The title the movie and baby

39:11

is the name of a leopard

39:13

that's a bit heavy could let

39:15

prepared food that someone has ships

39:18

to her house is that is

39:20

He had to take care. Of

39:22

ended The premise of them having

39:24

to work together to find that

39:26

leopard that she somehow let escape.

39:28

Good causes them to fall in

39:31

love is so crazy and it's

39:33

so funny and she stops is

39:35

a guy from get his his

39:37

engagement in a been fall in

39:39

love with her. The movie shouldn't

39:41

work at all but it's so

39:43

fantastic and I remember watching them

39:45

thinking like though you would be

39:48

amazing analysts rebel like it It

39:50

is loose. To. Nothing

39:52

you've ever done and I can still see.

39:54

You doing it. So based on that

39:56

character I kind of thought about like

39:58

what is. Why did

40:00

a good place to put to

40:03

the Zoe-stealth playing this character who

40:05

who's just of force of nature

40:07

of positivity that like there's nothing

40:09

that can stop her and. I.

40:12

Thought like I would be fun to

40:14

put or someplace bleak like that. Nothing

40:16

can breaker and I started thinking about

40:18

like. This. With the

40:20

news that the time about the conditions

40:23

like warehouses were like everything that we

40:25

order that's not the border on Amazon

40:27

Prime likes the way it gets here

40:30

so fast that it's so cheap. Remember

40:32

one time like buying a chair online

40:34

ads for like my friend plate in

40:36

front of our house the patio and

40:39

it was like thirty dollars in it

40:41

came to me the next day and

40:43

I thought like. How

40:45

did this happen? Like so, the human dignity

40:47

must have been vital that he did first

40:49

quarter to pull them up. And I

40:52

really need. I don't even think I needed to cheer.

40:54

Tomorrow like just wanted to share and

40:56

it I have any would I would

40:58

read about like amazon fulfillment center and

41:00

how hard it is there and how

41:03

different by people are always needing to

41:05

move in with would might feel legs

41:07

to work. At. A place

41:09

like this and I thought. I

41:12

wanted a made me think of because at

41:14

that time as working at Twentieth which was

41:16

owned by News Corp and you know by

41:18

Rupert Murdoch was in charge of the of

41:20

the mr Burn through the center script and

41:22

I but I want their everyday and I

41:24

thought. Man. But this is fun.

41:27

Like how come how come it doesn't

41:29

break me that like most of us

41:31

work for a giant. Conglomerate.

41:34

That does things that weeknight not

41:36

all love but for some reason

41:38

we have a good time at

41:40

work. Many of us I particularly

41:42

and I started thinking about like

41:44

a we make sort of our

41:46

community of friends there and like

41:48

someone. Is. like a cheerleader

41:50

that like has gallows humor i had

41:52

comes up with a wave to help

41:54

us get through it and from that

41:56

idea like i developed character and in

41:58

this workplace of Like, the

42:01

most, try to turn up the

42:03

volume on the difficulty of it, of

42:05

like figuring out the most

42:08

dehumanizing place, people could

42:10

really work and put Zoe playing this

42:12

role, in this role in there. How

42:16

much research did you do? Because it

42:18

does seem like, in the past, there

42:21

was some research involved about like, what

42:24

actually goes on and like metrics and

42:26

hitting numbers and like, how did you

42:28

research the details of these

42:30

fulfillment centers? So, because

42:32

Amazon has to hire so many people,

42:35

they put out a lot of videos.

42:37

Like, they have distribution

42:39

centers all across the nation and

42:42

especially during big times of the year,

42:44

like Christmas, like they need to scale

42:46

up really fast. So they make videos

42:48

to like that talk about what they

42:50

do. And every day, you can

42:52

just go and sign up for a live

42:55

Amazon distribution center tour.

42:58

We're like very energetic tour guide.

43:01

Like you're at Disneyland, we'll be like, welcome

43:03

to Amazon, this is what we do. And

43:05

like, it shows you the ins and outs

43:07

of the whole place. So I took one

43:09

of those tours and there was, it's so

43:11

fascinating to me to just watch, it's all

43:13

online. You don't have to go in person

43:15

to just see like, the amount

43:17

of technology that takes, that is

43:19

required in addition to all the

43:21

humans, to get you a box

43:25

of big pens the next day for cheaper than

43:28

it would be to walk to your corner store.

43:31

It's insane. And then once I started researching

43:33

it, and that you would always

43:35

like, I'm sure you find this in your own

43:37

work, like you're always two

43:40

degrees away from someone who knows

43:42

a lot about that. And

43:44

I found one of my sister's friends,

43:48

boyfriends worked for Amazon as

43:50

in the office that they'd

43:52

work in and fulfillment. And

43:55

I just called him one day and he had

43:57

actually left. And if you can find someone who's.

44:00

job. They're often

44:02

a great source if you want to write a

44:04

copy by them. And

44:07

I talked to him for a couple of

44:09

hours about what it

44:11

was like day to day there. And

44:13

everyone, it's so funny when you when you

44:15

call the writer, people are like, oh, sometimes

44:17

people are excited to talk about stuff. And

44:19

sometimes people are think it's boring. But as

44:21

a writer, you're like, there's nothing too small.

44:23

I want to know, like, when did you

44:25

eat lunch? How did you guys eat lunch?

44:27

Did you eat them at your desk?

44:30

Did you go find one

44:32

patch of sunlight next in a table

44:34

next to the parking lot? Like, any

44:37

every mundane detail is so

44:40

important when you're in that world building

44:43

stage and character building. So it's

44:45

really fun to talk to

44:47

people. And it's also fun to have people

44:49

realize like, oh, there's no

44:51

detail too small when you're doing that research.

44:53

Because all the book research you do is

44:56

kind of technical on metrics and things like that.

44:58

But that's not actually the world of a comedy

45:00

show. It's, it's what are

45:03

what are Chandler and Joey gonna say

45:05

to each other? And what are their

45:07

different personality types? And what's the texture

45:09

of Yeah, what's just the tasks? Like,

45:11

what's the chuffa or whatever

45:13

we want to call it? Like, what's, what's

45:16

the stuff that's going on in the

45:18

scene while we're talking about the story

45:20

point? But like, what's the business? You

45:23

know, exactly. What actors are doing? And

45:26

there was weird questions, because I thought, oh,

45:29

this is going to be a pilot. Like, if is

45:32

it going to be distracting to see, you

45:35

know, goods zipping around behind people on conveyor

45:37

belt and is that hard to shoot? Like,

45:39

I almost needed to, I was thrilled when

45:41

I found out there's an office that overlooks

45:44

the warehouse. That looks

45:46

like an office bullpen. That

45:49

is a little quieter. And people can talk to

45:51

each other and have some privacy because there

45:53

was I was initially scared thinking, if Everyone

45:56

is having to move so fast all the time and scared

45:58

to go to the bathroom. We. Can't do

46:01

a show because he have a Show is about.

46:04

You. Got in a fight with your be

46:06

your mother in law yesterday. It's or your

46:08

sister is annoying you and you're trying to

46:10

figure out how to respond with your friend

46:12

at words. If people are constantly moving, you

46:15

can't do that. And.

46:17

So once you have the Sansa

46:19

beards you we've got some research

46:21

and have a sense of though

46:23

his character at the center of

46:25

it. What's your process for? like

46:27

peopling. The. Rest of the

46:30

show. The great

46:32

question: I steal so much. As

46:35

from other pilots that I read, I

46:37

mean up their pilots. I read every

46:39

year before I'm right thing pilots the

46:41

friend pilot is one of them and

46:43

the news radio pilot is wine and.

46:46

Ah, Month. I. Know

46:48

that Thirty Rock Pilot pretty well

46:50

and having watched a lot new

46:52

usually if there's something in this

46:54

area I think around that time

46:56

I also read. Ah,

46:58

I read Silicon Valley for this

47:01

one too, I think I also.

47:03

Was really find to figure out

47:06

how to inconvenience claimed. That.

47:08

Pile if I watch a lotta episodes

47:11

of that. But so friends and News

47:13

radio are like constantly. Every single time

47:15

I write a pilot, I read those

47:17

pilots first. Com.

47:19

And I think there's a lot of course been

47:22

in from news radio but but but to join

47:24

do this for I mean I almost always

47:26

start. I go through a phase of like. Writing.

47:29

Down the cast members in the role

47:31

of a pile of or shall I

47:33

love and find is like figure out

47:36

of there needs to be a one

47:38

to one correspondence and then like crossing

47:40

out people that I don't need adding

47:42

people that might be specific as world

47:44

and it changes a tremendous amount obviously.

47:46

But I start by it's just stealing

47:48

at simple them up. It's the first

47:50

couple of days or weeks. it's

47:53

a good method is a pic of the

47:55

i was the psych why does it feel

47:57

like i'm of hundred inventing the wheel by

48:00

each time, you know, like I wish there was

48:02

a there was something we were like, okay, time

48:05

for time for this pilot. Like, I know the

48:07

steps I know, I need this kind of character

48:09

I need that kind of character, you know, it's

48:11

just, I don't have a

48:14

system, like, to be systematic about so

48:16

it ends up just kind of you

48:18

stumble your way. Yeah. Oh, I need

48:20

this kind of dynamic. I

48:22

need this person who's all id and,

48:25

and I'm sure there's systems out there where people are

48:27

like, well, here's what you need the machine, you need

48:29

the animal, you need that this, you know,

48:31

like, whatever these archetypes are, I just don't

48:34

have that thing. But it seems like, yeah,

48:36

news radio. That's a

48:38

pretty good. That's a pretty

48:40

good template for a workplace show. Like,

48:43

I mean, that show was incredible. And

48:46

perfect pilot. Yeah, I

48:48

mean, and that's the thing is, whenever you

48:50

land on a show, like if you're going to

48:52

write a workplace show, and you know, the sort

48:54

of tone you like, and shows

48:56

that work, there's not that many. Not

49:00

that many to steal from like, and

49:02

then, you know, everybody who writes a workplace

49:04

show now will read the office for sure.

49:07

I definitely I probably didn't even say that

49:09

because it was so obvious that you need

49:11

to read the office because it's the biggest

49:13

workplace show of all time. But

49:17

yeah, I wonder, the other thing is I'm,

49:20

I'm, I'm realizing after I hear you say

49:22

that, I've never gone through it

49:24

the same way twice. Like every time I'm like,

49:26

how do you come up with a pilot? And

49:29

I think that's what leads me to stealing. But it's

49:32

not. That's why I read different

49:34

episodes or different shows every single time. I wish

49:36

there was a system, I should just write it

49:38

down afterwards. But by the time you

49:40

know what you're going to do, and you're like, you're

49:42

like, I'll never have to deal with this again. Now

49:45

I'm often like, what's my pilot story? Yeah,

49:48

it's, it's so I

49:50

don't know, I'm in the middle of it

49:53

now. And it's just kind of like, wait, how

49:55

do you do like, how do I know like,

49:57

what? Because once you You

50:01

know it once you actually start

50:03

writing dialogue and scenes, it comes

50:05

very clear. You're like, oh shoot,

50:07

I don't have this point of view. I don't

50:09

have this attitude or whatever. But when you're just

50:11

in that, all these steps you have to do

50:13

before you get to write a script, you know,

50:15

or you're doing these outlines and character things, it's

50:17

not as obvious what you're going

50:19

to be missing.

50:22

You know, when you're in this scene, you're just

50:24

like, shoot, I wish I had the person who

50:26

just had the like, fuck it attitude or whatever.

50:29

You know, there's like an attitude that's missing. But

50:33

it's not like I have some list of like, okay, I need

50:36

all of these. I need

50:38

a dumb person. I

50:40

need this. Yeah, it's

50:43

a show like this where it's a workplace. It's, you know,

50:45

there's like a concept. You've got

50:47

a main character, but you could throw any, it

50:49

feels like you could throw anybody in there, you

50:51

know, to surround her. And

50:56

narrowing that down is so hard.

50:59

I think I often, I'm

51:01

very big on like, I don't remember

51:03

who gave me this advice, but like

51:05

having the theme up front and center

51:07

and knowing it's a very

51:09

open-ended question. Like, I don't remember who told me

51:11

this, but I think about it all the time,

51:13

that someone told me that the pitch for Friends,

51:16

and you may tell me this was totally wrong, was

51:19

that it's about a show about the time in

51:21

your life where your family is your friends. Was that

51:23

true? I believe

51:25

it's when your friends are your family, but

51:27

yes. Oh, yes. That

51:31

is definitely true because it's something

51:33

we would mockingly like say constantly. Yeah,

51:37

that's the pitch. Like, that

51:39

is the pitch. It

51:41

made me think like, oh, that's so

51:43

good because it's so open-ended. You can

51:46

get 300 episodes out of this,

51:51

but everyone needs to fit

51:53

into, everyone

51:55

needs to be described so that

51:57

they fit in that, into the

51:59

framework. of the show in that way. So

52:02

I think I probably with this show,

52:04

man, I wish I remember, I think

52:07

I remember thinking like the pitch of

52:09

the premise of the office or the theme of the

52:11

office is like, how do you

52:13

possibly abide work when it's the most boring

52:16

thing in the world? Like, how do we,

52:19

how do we get through the day? And everyone

52:21

kind of seems to stem from

52:24

that, like, guys, it takes too seriously. And I think

52:26

this one was how, how

52:28

do you get through it and find

52:31

community and meaning when you're like, probably

52:33

possibly doing something evil. And

52:36

how in this like very

52:40

mechanized, like, dehumanizing

52:42

environment, do you hold

52:45

on to your humanity? Yes,

52:47

that's a better one. You feel I should have

52:49

had you in this. So I

52:52

probably like stole a bunch of characters

52:54

and then started throwing away people I

52:56

couldn't jam into that theme would be

52:58

my guess of what I did, but

53:01

I last year I don't remember how

53:03

I did it. But

53:05

you know, it's a fun, you know,

53:08

I really like the, you

53:10

know, the high

53:12

horse, you know,

53:15

character who's who's just trying to

53:17

be so pure in

53:20

there that everyone just like wants to avoid because

53:22

you know, they're going to get a lecture, you

53:24

know, just feels like that's a very modern

53:28

kind of workplace character that's

53:30

not in the office. That's

53:33

not in radio. And

53:35

I think I probably pitched that

53:37

character out as and

53:41

I had a comp for that character.

53:43

I think

53:45

I said, oh, I think I said this is like

53:48

Aubrey Plaza in Parks and Recreation, that

53:50

young person energy. But but I said

53:53

to me, that young person

53:55

energy that no one knows what to do

53:57

with now, that energy is different. And I

53:59

think what I've experienced in seeing the

54:01

world is it comes out like this and

54:03

that ended up being the Shankar character. So

54:06

I stole from Park's Recreation

54:08

too. But

54:11

everything ends up, you know, yeah, it's all,

54:13

everything starts out stolen and everything starts out

54:15

sort of like simplistic

54:18

and if given time,

54:20

grows. I mean, if you read the Friends

54:22

pilot all the time, you know, like, when Phoebe, and

54:24

I hate this moment, it's one of

54:26

the few months I don't like, which is like, I'm

54:28

cleansing your aura. It's like, oh,

54:31

she's the new agey, like,

54:33

it's an annoying, like, stereotype thing. But

54:35

like, when you think about where writers

54:39

and Lisa like, took that character from

54:41

that simplistic beginning, it's

54:43

unbelievable. She's so not that, you

54:45

know, by the end, Joey starts

54:47

out just like, in Lords of Flatbush

54:50

or something, you know, it's just like a, you

54:52

know, like a leather vest wearing like,

54:54

goomba, you know, and where he goes.

54:56

So it's just like, in a pilot,

54:59

it is helpful to go like,

55:01

okay, this is the joke lane for

55:03

this person, like, you can expect these

55:06

kinds of jokes from this person. You

55:08

know, they're horny, they're dumb,

55:10

they're drunk, they're, you know, and it's

55:12

just like, okay, and then you can

55:14

flesh it out. But it's hard to

55:16

have a super three dimensional character in

55:18

a pilot. You just don't have a

55:20

lot of time. Yeah, I

55:23

wanted LeBlanc, bring that to Joey, because

55:25

I always remember thinking, the

55:27

genius of Joey seems to me

55:29

that he's both that and

55:32

every girl loves him still too.

55:35

Like, he's not not like in

55:37

the show, like, people watching the

55:39

show love Joey. He's not

55:41

he's both a bro and somehow

55:45

your best friend. Right, because he's not

55:47

because he's very childlike. You

55:50

know, he has just a very childlike sort of

55:52

innocence to him. Like, he's having sex with everyone

55:54

and yet he maintains this like, childlike

55:57

wonder of things. And, you

55:59

know, he's He just loves food

56:01

and loves his friends so much. He's

56:03

such a loyal friend. And he's not

56:05

really a bro. He's just

56:07

a sweet, childlike

56:10

guy, which is why you

56:12

forgive the womanizing. And he's

56:15

a very different womanizer from Sam

56:18

Malone, who's much more adult. Also

56:20

likable, but he's likable because his

56:22

sort of conceited nature ends

56:25

up being kind of winning. But

56:27

he's not childlike in the way

56:29

Joey is. And

56:32

he just seems sweet and nonthreatening.

56:37

But there's just moments in the pilot where I

56:39

feel like he's this sort of Italian stereotype that

56:41

he got away from quickly.

56:44

But it's just like, oh, that's how he

56:46

was thought of. And then the

56:48

nuance comes out because it's also you

56:51

combine it with an actor who's bringing things

56:54

to it. And Matt's

56:56

bringing this sweetness and loveability. I

56:58

mean, it's like you meet Matt

57:00

LeBlanc. You can't not like him.

57:02

Like, he's just such an open,

57:05

warm, lovable guy. So it's

57:07

just like, OK, fine. He

57:09

can have sex with four different girls in

57:11

a day. But we don't hate him for it. Yeah.

57:14

I mean, and then with even the Italian stuff

57:16

that you guys ended up keeping and

57:18

doing, you turned it up just the right

57:21

level. Like, did he have nine sisters? Those

57:25

episodes were incredible. That's

57:27

funny. It's nice. You can always bring in someone

57:29

else that's like another sister. There's like, oh, yeah.

57:33

You can bring it. Yeah. And I think when you're

57:35

doing a pilot, too, sometimes you

57:38

forget like, oh, it's nice to plant

57:40

things like that that can keep paying

57:42

dividends, you know? Like, that

57:44

there's something or like, oh, this down the

57:46

road. But it's hard to be so

57:49

much to think about just to get that one

57:51

episode written in any kind of decent way. Like,

57:53

not thinking too much about series. And so it

57:55

was like, we'll figure out the series of that.

57:58

Well, it's also funny that pilots. become this

58:00

word text where there's a

58:02

joke that you put in because

58:04

you're like sketching out a character and then

58:06

partway through season one you think like and

58:08

then he said this thing in the pilot

58:10

so like now that's part of his character

58:12

and you pull it out and you just

58:14

think like that was a total accident. Yeah

58:17

right but your staff is looking at this one

58:19

you know trying to figure what the show is

58:21

all they have to go on is this one

58:23

thing so they're gonna analyze it and like yeah

58:25

you're like I don't know I needed a joke

58:27

there it said this thing. Seems

58:30

funny there was a guy I went to college who did it.

58:33

Yeah. That's pretty interesting point I never

58:35

thought about the way Joey's masculinity is

58:38

different from Sam Malone's because

58:40

I remember the moment I locked into Sam Malone's in

58:42

the Cheers pilot at one point or

58:44

maybe it's the second episode no

58:47

I think it's the pilot I think at

58:49

one point Diane answers the phone and there's

58:51

a woman looking for Sam and she just

58:54

wants to pass along a message and she's

58:56

just screaming into Sam about like how he's

58:58

a camera the words are so important to

59:00

this but it's about how he's just like

59:03

a dirtbag road rogue who loves himself

59:06

and at the end of the pilot

59:08

when Diane decides to stay there Sam

59:10

knowingly looks at her and says I think

59:13

you're I figured so and she said oh why

59:15

you think you know everything about every woman something

59:17

like that and then he's like no I

59:20

think you just can't get the phrase womanizing

59:22

rogue out of your head like he

59:25

knows the words are

59:27

so important but like he's so

59:29

confidently masculine in a very different

59:32

shade I never thought about that

59:34

before and they

59:36

got away both those actors are amazing.

59:38

They're just amazing they're just bring such

59:41

like likability you know I mean Ted

59:43

Danson you know on the page and

59:46

that's what's frustrating sometimes is you're like you could

59:48

see getting notes like this Sam

59:50

Malone character seems like just an asshole like

59:52

why would we like this guy he's a

59:54

dick and you're just like no

59:56

but when Ted Danson's saying these lines it's

59:59

gonna be too so different, like

1:00:01

you're gonna experience it so differently.

1:00:03

You know, an actor just

1:00:05

like brings so

1:00:09

much to it. It's funny, you know, bringing up Baby

1:00:11

was a movie that like for a while I didn't

1:00:13

like that. I found it annoying. I found Cary Grant

1:00:16

annoying in his like nebbeshie, you

1:00:18

know, pretending that he's mainly handsome.

1:00:20

Yeah, yeah. And then at a

1:00:22

certain point I watched it like,

1:00:25

I mean, probably like third or fourth of

1:00:27

you, I kept, people loved the movie so much and

1:00:29

I loved I was always like,

1:00:31

no, come on, His Girl Friday, you know, Lady

1:00:34

Eve, Preston Sturgis movies are so much better.

1:00:36

Like bringing up Baby was the screwball comedy

1:00:38

that I was just like couldn't get, I

1:00:41

couldn't. And then finally there's fourth

1:00:44

time or something, it clicked for me. I'm

1:00:46

like, this is unbelievable. This is just so

1:00:49

great and insane and just

1:00:51

like the anarchic

1:00:54

energy that Catherine Hepburn like

1:00:56

brings to it, but

1:00:58

that she's kind of in control of and I don't know, there

1:01:01

was something where it was just like, okay, I

1:01:04

Cary Grant's no longer, you know, I love Cary Grant.

1:01:06

I was like, he was no longer annoying me in

1:01:09

that role, but it's just these things

1:01:13

where it's like, we're just

1:01:15

expecting to put it just words on a

1:01:17

page just from that. You're

1:01:20

supposed to like imagine what it's

1:01:22

going to be, but then like an

1:01:25

actor comes in, Zoe Deschanel comes in, it's

1:01:27

just like changes everything so much. It's

1:01:31

almost not fair because I sometimes think like we

1:01:34

get to have fun and be silly and your

1:01:36

job is to make it like a human being

1:01:38

would possibly ever say this. Right. Yeah. Jesus, on

1:01:42

30 Rock, right. Those actors all had to

1:01:44

like, you have to make it sound like

1:01:46

this, these lines could come out of a

1:01:48

human being's mouth, like something so dense with

1:01:50

jokes with this one line. And

1:01:52

yet those actors could just like, could pull that

1:01:55

off. That was the amazing things

1:01:57

about Tina and Alec is they can

1:01:59

say It was probably bad

1:02:01

for me as a writer. You never, you

1:02:03

were like, yeah, you don't have to worry

1:02:05

about it. They'll say it.

1:02:08

They'll figure out how to make four

1:02:10

turns in the middle of one speech.

1:02:12

I know. So written. Like these things

1:02:14

are so written. And yet, like, it

1:02:16

works. Like those, you know, just

1:02:18

magical actors can like make that

1:02:21

work. You know, and yeah, how like it's

1:02:24

just so, I mean, it's

1:02:26

just a line from one of his friends up who's like, mix

1:02:29

those both bar and bot. It's

1:02:32

the thing. What is, you know, and I think

1:02:34

it was Scott's a very roto, like,

1:02:37

there's a great little line, but like only like

1:02:39

he can pull it off. He can

1:02:41

just like make that work coming out

1:02:43

of this unnatural thing to

1:02:45

say. And yet from him,

1:02:47

it's just like, oh, that's, you know, it's

1:02:50

totally works. And

1:02:53

I think that's, that's the thing. I think that's the

1:02:55

thing. I love that you watched the movie. You don't

1:02:57

like four times. That's

1:03:00

such a great quality. There was just something about, I

1:03:02

kept, you know, it's just always on these lists of

1:03:04

like the greatest. I'm

1:03:07

like, there's got to be something here. Like there's got

1:03:09

to be something. And there's definitely, I don't

1:03:11

know. I feel the

1:03:13

way about a lot of things. There's just like at different

1:03:15

ages, you're just like not ready. You know, for certain movies

1:03:17

and they just seem boring to you and they watch movies.

1:03:22

And they're like, you know, I mean, I think that's

1:03:24

something like, you know, they click

1:03:26

and maybe they're. There's something more adults

1:03:28

and, you know, so

1:03:31

it's like, your kids are younger. I guess your

1:03:33

kids are held. No, your twins are eight. Yeah.

1:03:35

Yeah. So it's just like, you know, you get, or

1:03:39

you want to show them some of these things and it's just like, what's going

1:03:41

to work, you know, like, I don't want to. we

1:03:45

watched a lot of movies over the pandemic, you know, that

1:03:47

my kids were like 13, 14. And.

1:03:51

They did. Like I was just like, I love his

1:03:53

girl Friday so much. Like are these kids, you know,

1:03:55

and they did refer to it as that movie. We're

1:03:57

that yelling movie. Yeah. they

1:04:00

laugh when we were watching it like they

1:04:02

were laughing, you know, can't take back, can't

1:04:05

take back the laugh like, you know,

1:04:07

I figure you plant those seeds and

1:04:09

it's not quite like Zoe's, you

1:04:11

know, Zoe's dad like really feeding

1:04:14

her a steady diet of screwball

1:04:16

comedy. But you know, you just want to

1:04:18

expose your kids to the good stuff. I

1:04:22

think I read his go Friday

1:04:24

because when I first saw the pulp

1:04:26

fiction script, and like the

1:04:28

first paragraph, Quentin Tarantino

1:04:31

wrote like they, they talk

1:04:33

really fast. Like

1:04:35

in his girl Friday, I was

1:04:38

like, Oh, okay. Why did he

1:04:40

bother adding that part? He's

1:04:43

your Friday. Like I understand what talk really fast

1:04:45

to me. But there is

1:04:47

a very certain kind of pace

1:04:49

and velocity to the dialogue in that

1:04:52

movie. That's just, it's just incredible. So

1:04:58

how much

1:05:01

did you like think like, series

1:05:03

wise, when you you know, with this with fulfillment,

1:05:05

like, did you have, do you have to write

1:05:08

one of those things where like, here's where it

1:05:10

all goes? I mean, you

1:05:12

obviously figure, you know, the pilot builds to

1:05:14

the, you know, a really big physical moment,

1:05:17

you've got birds being eviscerated

1:05:20

by a drone, you've got, you know,

1:05:24

like, you've got the pilot. Like,

1:05:27

did you think that you were going to need

1:05:29

to build to something that big

1:05:32

each episode? Or how were you thinking about

1:05:35

series? I

1:05:37

so I think I had story areas

1:05:39

that I wanted to explore for sure.

1:05:41

And in future episodes, but I remember

1:05:44

thinking the biggest thing I wanted to

1:05:46

do in this pilot was I wanted

1:05:48

to like, stake a lot of

1:05:50

flags on things I could do,

1:05:52

comedy wise, that wouldn't feel outside

1:05:55

of the tone of the show. And I knew

1:06:00

One thing was that there was that big physical

1:06:02

comedy bit, and I liked, I

1:06:04

kind of liked it, and there was questions about whether

1:06:06

we needed it from the pilot, but I just thought,

1:06:09

I think I wanna make a show that

1:06:12

we can do this sometimes on. That's what's

1:06:14

interesting for me in that moment

1:06:17

in time. I don't think

1:06:19

we're gonna do this every episode or even most

1:06:21

episodes, but I tend to,

1:06:24

I find it satisfying when stories dovetail,

1:06:27

and if they can dovetail in a

1:06:29

funny way, I think it's

1:06:32

great, but sometimes on some shows, that

1:06:34

would feel really written and weird. Like

1:06:36

if an episode of, you

1:06:40

know, catastrophe did that, you

1:06:43

might be like, that's not the show now. You can't,

1:06:45

you're not allowed to do this anymore. And

1:06:47

I wanted to establish a couple of things.

1:06:51

I wanted to establish these cutaways. I wanted

1:06:54

to establish we could sometimes do flashbacks. Obviously,

1:06:57

there's a little bit of

1:07:00

pushed, stacked, joke dialogue that's a little

1:07:02

30 Rocky in

1:07:05

that world I wanted to establish, and there's

1:07:07

a little bit of that, yeah, that

1:07:10

big physical comedy bit that you would

1:07:13

almost, I feel like

1:07:15

sometimes you would do on multicams, but I think on

1:07:17

single cam, I thought we can get

1:07:19

away with a bigger, crazier bit, because

1:07:22

it doesn't have to be live. And

1:07:25

I thought that's something that, it

1:07:28

was kind of a combination of a lot

1:07:30

of tones that I just been on, a

1:07:32

combination of some of the like broader

1:07:35

modern family episodes that I also

1:07:37

had a lot of fun doing and like

1:07:39

some of the more pushed things on 30 Rock, but

1:07:42

also I wanted to get real

1:07:46

emotional like love interest stuff

1:07:48

that we had done some

1:07:50

other modern family episodes, and I

1:07:52

wanted to, one thing I love from

1:07:55

My Name is Earl, like you're talking about Joey,

1:07:57

is that if you liked Jason Earl so much,

1:10:00

And we don't have to go back to it. And I do think

1:10:02

I probably, like a lot of pilots do this.

1:10:05

Mindy Kaling did it really well in the Mindy

1:10:07

project pilot where

1:10:11

there is voiceover, but then you

1:10:13

cut to the scene that it's

1:10:15

coming from and you get

1:10:18

away with it. And it's not something that they use

1:10:20

the rest of the series and you get a little

1:10:22

bit of leeway on pilots that I decided to do

1:10:25

that. Because you just, the beginnings of pilots

1:10:28

are so hard. I don't

1:10:30

know how your process of

1:10:32

going through them is, but mine is very

1:10:34

brutal. Yeah, no, the first scene of

1:10:36

a pilot is

1:10:38

the hardest thing in all of

1:10:40

writing. I feel like there's just nothing harder

1:10:43

than that first scene and figuring

1:10:45

out how you, you know, are

1:10:47

you gonna make that fun? Are you gonna introduce characters efficiently?

1:10:49

I mean, it's just, there's so many things you have to

1:10:52

do in that first scene. And that's

1:10:54

why, you know, people end up doing all

1:10:56

these same kinds of

1:10:58

things. You start at

1:11:00

the most heightened moment and then it's

1:11:02

like two weeks earlier, you know,

1:11:04

you just like those kind of tropes,

1:11:06

which as writers, we're

1:11:09

sick of all of them and yet sometimes we do

1:11:11

them because it's like, I

1:11:13

don't know what else to do. I don't know

1:11:15

how to make this work and how to answer

1:11:17

these notes. But

1:11:20

yeah, I just noticed, you know, single

1:11:22

camera is like, it's

1:11:25

often, you see the shows that actually

1:11:27

make it often have like one of

1:11:29

these just handful of devices that they

1:11:31

end up using because it

1:11:33

is hard to just like make

1:11:36

a show that's just kind of shot like a movie,

1:11:38

you know, that where, and have the jokes land and

1:11:40

have it be clear. I mean, 30 Rock did

1:11:42

that, but it also has such

1:11:44

a specific tone that you

1:11:47

can't really describe, you know, like,

1:11:49

now you can, oh, it's a 30 Rock tone. Yeah.

1:11:52

Before they, you know, it's just like, you couldn't have gotten

1:11:54

that through if you weren't Tina Fey and Robert, like, anyway,

1:11:57

it's a... And actually that

1:11:59

pilot. starts with just

1:12:02

a character introduction of Liz Lemon.

1:12:04

She goes to buy a hot

1:12:06

dog and she's getting guff

1:12:10

from the people behind her in line and she's acting

1:12:12

like she's the only person who follows

1:12:14

social mores. So then she buys all

1:12:16

of the hot dogs from the vendor,

1:12:18

making everyone mad at her behind her,

1:12:20

but she feels like righteous. And

1:12:23

it's not a plot point in the episode,

1:12:25

it's just a character

1:12:27

intro and it's so good.

1:12:31

So all we need to do is come up with

1:12:33

something as good as 30

1:12:35

Rock Pilot and we'll

1:12:37

be fine. Well

1:12:40

this was so great. I feel like I

1:12:43

could talk about writing pilots with you

1:12:45

for hours and hours. I could really do this

1:12:47

until I die. I could be so fun to

1:12:51

talk about. I know because we're all we're

1:12:53

just constantly trying to figure out even if

1:12:55

you do it well a few times, you're

1:12:57

like the next time you're like, how did I do that? I don't know

1:13:00

how to do it. I'm excited

1:13:03

about your new show. Craig's great

1:13:05

and that's going to be

1:13:07

fun. I'm just excited to see you. You're

1:13:09

actually in an office, you're not on a

1:13:11

Zoom room. You guys are doing this old

1:13:14

school in person. Being in

1:13:16

person in a room, it's the

1:13:19

best thing in the world. It's my favorite sometimes.

1:13:21

I'm like I don't care if we even put

1:13:23

this on TV. I would rather be fine to

1:13:25

just chop it up about anything with comedy

1:13:28

writers that are good. A good comedy writer in

1:13:30

a good comedy room. Great. Yeah that's

1:13:32

great with hopefully

1:13:35

some decent snacks.

1:13:37

I'm excited for you. Can't wait to

1:13:39

see the finished product and

1:13:42

I'm so glad we made this happen. Thank you

1:13:44

so much. Thanks for having me. Thank you.

1:13:50

All right I hope you enjoyed that.

1:13:53

We will be back in 2024 with

1:13:55

more great Dead Pilots and don't forget

1:13:57

that live show. elysiantheatre.com for tickets. Pilot

1:14:00

Society is produced by me and my

1:14:02

co-producer Ben Blacker and our associate producer

1:14:04

Noah Finling. It is edited and mixed

1:14:06

by Jordan Cass. If you

1:14:09

like the show, please tell someone, tell a

1:14:11

friend to check us out and please leave

1:14:13

us a review and follow us on social

1:14:15

media. We're not hard to find. Until

1:14:18

next time, be kind to yourself, be kind to

1:14:20

others. Have a very

1:14:22

happy new year. I'm Andrew Reich.

1:14:25

Thank you for listening. Maximum

1:14:28

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1:14:30

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