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in all states and situations. Hi

0:38

there everyone. It's four o'clock in

0:41

New York. America, meet Trump employee

0:43

number five. The Mar-a-Lago staffer dropping

0:45

a bombshell in the

0:47

classified documents case brought by special

0:50

counsel Jack Smith against Donald

0:52

Trump. In an interview

0:54

with CNN, Mar-a-Lago employee

0:56

Brian Butler painting a

0:58

very specific picture of

1:03

Trump's inner circle and how it

1:05

operated more like a mafia family

1:07

than anything else with loyalty prized

1:09

above everything. A world where fealty

1:11

to the boss led to

1:13

criminal exposure. Now NBC News

1:15

has not independently confirmed Butler's identity

1:18

as Trump employee number five and

1:20

he declined NBC's request for comment.

1:23

In his interview last night Butler

1:25

says he helped Trump's co-defendants Walt

1:27

Naute and Carlos de Oliveira

1:29

move those boxes containing some

1:32

of our nation's most sensitive

1:34

national security secrets. Watch.

1:38

He followed me. He pulled out and got behind me.

1:40

We got to the airport. I ended up loading all

1:42

the luggage I had and he had a bunch of

1:44

boxes. You noticed that

1:46

he had boxes. Oh yeah, they were the

1:48

boxes that were in the indictment. The

1:51

white banker's boxes. That's

1:53

what I remember loading. And did you have

1:55

any idea at the time that there was

1:57

potentially US national security secrets?

2:00

No clue. I had no

2:02

clue. No clue.

2:04

And here's how Carlos D. Olivera talked

2:07

about moving classified documents for Trump.

2:10

There was one time towards one of the last

2:13

times I was with them and we're

2:15

talking about, you know, boxes and, you know,

2:17

well, Biden did the same thing. You know,

2:19

you can't get it. Always got brought up

2:21

about Biden and other people that did the

2:23

same thing. And then there was one time

2:25

he said, you know, we're all dirty. We

2:27

all move boxes. We're

2:30

all dirty, but we're not. Of

2:32

course, President Joe Biden was not

2:34

charged with obstructing the government's attempt

2:37

at retrieving classified documents, unlike Donald

2:39

Trump and his employees who allegedly

2:41

tried to delete all

2:43

the surveillance footage that showed the

2:45

boxes being moved. Here's Butler describing

2:48

a conversation he had with D.

2:50

Olivera about the widespread panic around

2:53

that footage. I

2:56

remember him saying, hey, by the way, Walt's coming

2:58

tomorrow. Oh, cool. That's great. I

3:00

was like, OK. It wasn't until the following

3:02

day when we're out walking.

3:04

He's like, hey, by the way, it's a secret.

3:07

Don't tell anybody Walt's coming. And

3:11

why? Well, he needs me

3:13

to he needs me to find something out

3:15

before he gets here. Oh, what's that? He needs

3:17

me to, you know, how long the camera

3:19

footage is saved at Mar-a-Lago. And I'm like, oh,

3:22

that's that's odd. Why do you need the camera footage?

3:24

Why do you need to know how long it's saved?

3:26

And his response was, I think they're looking

3:28

for somebody that was there. And

3:32

so Justice Department closed in. Trump

3:34

allies pressured that man

3:36

Butler, offering him an attorney

3:38

amid a full blown hysteria now

3:41

about who was talking to prosecutors

3:43

and what they were saying. Butler

3:46

now says he would testify in

3:48

a trial against Donald Trump and

3:50

that contrary to the ex-president and

3:52

his wild conspiracies about the weaponization

3:54

of the government and the deep

3:57

state, this case is No

3:59

witch hunt. Do

4:02

you have you Trump? Is it National

4:04

security? Risk? On. I

4:06

personally would just say I just

4:08

don't believe that he should be

4:10

a presidential candidate at this time.

4:12

I think it's time to move

4:14

on. Does it concern you that?

4:16

I mean. It's

4:19

earn their absolutely ah my think we

4:21

can do better. And. You

4:23

know for him to get out up there all

4:25

the time and say the things he says about

4:27

you know about this being a witch hunt In

4:29

every for it's it's all you know it is

4:31

says. He just

4:34

couldn't take responsibility for anything. And

4:37

extraordinary a forest hemlock through.

4:40

The eyes of a first ten

4:42

witness and as classified documents case

4:45

who lays out from the inside

4:47

cover up from Team Trump before.

4:49

We start today Summer favor of foreigners

4:51

and France former senator. And Co. Msnbc

4:54

Heroin Twenty Twenty Four podcast Claire Mccaskill

4:56

fact with Us National Investigative Reporter for

4:58

The Washington Post or Frank I'll any

5:00

guess Here with me as a table

5:02

where he belongs, former top officials and

5:04

apartment Ss and less and less. a

5:06

little Alice Andrew Weissmann is here and

5:08

let loose or the carol and exit.

5:11

This saw dropping stuff for me and

5:13

I watched I watched the Caitlin Collins

5:15

has a masterful job at sort of

5:17

bringing the witness to all the parts

5:19

of the story. Obviously prosecutors piece together

5:21

the story with a lot. Of difference

5:23

witness testimony and she does a good

5:25

job for the viewer at a plenty

5:27

it all ends but he's he's there

5:29

for the the crime as the hoarding.

5:31

He's there for the crime of the

5:34

moving of the boxes. He's there for

5:36

the boxes. Summer trip to bed now

5:38

serves as some of most riveting stuff

5:40

that you know. He drove a sprinter

5:42

van with the bags the boxes were

5:44

moved by someone else is actually now

5:46

Trump's could have had if any is

5:48

there for the that the Pratt stuff

5:50

which which is perhaps the most stomach

5:52

sinking got. plans for anyone coming up

5:54

this story as i know you do

5:56

from from the national security perspective continue

5:58

to decide to to sort of hear

6:00

him in his own words, describing the anatomy

6:02

of the crime. I

6:06

couldn't agree more with you, Nicole. Like every

6:08

time we think, and I

6:10

know that Claire and Andrew and I,

6:12

and you all think we know this

6:15

down to the studs, every time I

6:17

think I've got this Mar-a-Lago story totally

6:19

understood, I see a

6:21

new character in the Netflix special. And

6:24

that's what Brian became when Caitlin began

6:26

to interview him. It was like, of

6:29

course he was unwitting, but to me, the

6:31

most dramatic moment is actually, and this is

6:33

where I started thinking about the screenplay, is

6:36

June 3rd. Remember

6:38

at this point in June 3rd,

6:40

2022, Donald Trump has tried to

6:42

get his lawyers to lie, asked

6:45

his lawyers if he maybe could

6:47

lie about whether or not there

6:49

are records still at Mar-a-Lago. He,

6:51

the FBI and the head of

6:54

the counter espionage section is coming

6:56

down from the Department of Justice

6:58

to get whatever documents are still

7:01

on the premises that are classified.

7:03

And Evan Corcoran, President

7:05

Trump's attorney, is supposed to hand them

7:07

over in a red-weld envelope,

7:10

sealed with tape. At

7:13

that moment, Mr. Butler, earlier in

7:15

the morning, has been instructed, along

7:17

with Walt Malta, to take a

7:20

bunch of boxes into a van

7:22

that are going to go to

7:24

the airport and onto the private

7:26

plane of the former president, where

7:28

he and Melania and all their

7:31

luggage is going to be taken

7:33

for the summer season to Bedminster.

7:35

Those boxes are leaving the premises

7:38

as Donald Trump is jumping

7:40

into a little June 3rd meeting with the

7:42

Department of Justice and Mr. career

7:45

public servant, Jay Bratt, just down here to

7:47

get the rest of the classified record, sir.

7:50

Donald Trump says, I'm an open book, you

7:53

know, look at whatever you need to. I

7:55

just want to give you this stuff back.

7:57

But meanwhile, there are documents in a van

7:59

heading with. Brian, he doesn't

8:01

realize that there's classified national security

8:04

information inside, but he but they're

8:06

being spirited away from the from

8:08

the president, the former president's Palm Beach

8:10

Club at that exact

8:13

moment. I just I see the I

8:15

see the movie. Yeah,

8:17

I mean, you called Trump gaudy like

8:19

yesterday. And if you take classified state

8:21

secrets out of the boxes and you

8:23

put body parts in it, it's it's

8:25

no less dramatic, right? I mean, this

8:27

was someone who was in charge of

8:29

driving the boxes with the contraband in

8:31

them. It is haunting to me how

8:34

he says, Yeah, there was this white

8:36

haired tall guy I would later learn

8:38

was the attorney, the attorney who ends

8:40

up turning over his notes to Jackson

8:42

as prosecutors. I mean, this was so

8:44

many touch points to the

8:46

criminal conduct, both the mishandling

8:49

and the very, very

8:51

deliberate intent to obstruct. Yeah, well, this

8:53

is a firsthand witness to,

8:55

as you said, both the

8:57

retention part of the case retaining classified

9:00

documents, also

9:02

obstructing the investigation, and

9:04

even the dissemination, because

9:07

he overhears the talking about this to

9:09

somebody who clearly should know about it.

9:12

I have to say my Australian. Exactly.

9:15

And my

9:17

reaction there to all of this is it's

9:20

a huge indictment of our judicial system.

9:24

We're all listening to this, it's riveting.

9:27

That's what a trial is supposed to be. You

9:30

know, Donald Trump should have his day in

9:32

court to be able to cross examine all

9:34

of this, but the public is entitled to

9:36

not just hear from Mr. Butler, but everyone,

9:38

you know, the Supreme Court of the United

9:40

States that is putting a stay needlessly on

9:43

the DC case and Judge Cannon. Don't

9:47

get me started. You know,

9:49

it's clearly, clearly is

9:52

not going to have this trial. And

9:54

that is why you have him speaking. And some

9:56

ways they say, thank God, he's speaking normally a

9:58

prosecutor be like, I do not want my witness.

10:00

witnesses to be doing this. You can't prevent them,

10:02

but it's not a good thing. In this case,

10:04

my reaction is this is the only way the

10:07

public's going to learn it. And that's really not

10:10

right. The public has a right

10:12

to have a speedy trial to

10:14

cure the evidence. And

10:17

so it's great that this

10:19

interview happened. He seems

10:22

very credible, but they're entitled to the whole

10:24

story, to Butler

10:26

and everyone else. And it

10:28

really tells you about what

10:31

the judicial system is doing and closing

10:33

down accountability. And so this is the

10:35

form where we can have some account

10:38

of what happened, but it's not really

10:40

enough. It's not what is really the

10:42

way that we decide things in the

10:44

United States is when there's a dispute

10:46

is you have trials and facts and

10:48

law should matter. So that's sort of

10:50

my main reaction to that is about,

10:52

you know, Judge Cannon has a lot

10:55

to answer for. Let

10:57

me, Butler and Caitlin Collins deal

10:59

with the what of this, the why

11:01

he's out there. Let me play that.

11:03

This is Butler explaining why he came

11:06

out and how even he

11:08

is a witness in this

11:10

trial. It's having to navigate what he's afraid

11:12

Cannon's going to do. Why

11:16

are you speaking out publicly with your

11:18

story now? Well, I mean,

11:20

it's it's been almost a year since

11:22

FBI agents showed up at my

11:25

house when my wife was at home. And,

11:27

you know, over the course of the last year,

11:30

emotionally, it's been a roller coaster. You know,

11:32

a couple of weeks ago, you know, Judge

11:34

Cannon says she's going to release the names

11:36

of the witnesses. You know, you

11:38

go from highs and lows in this. And

11:42

instead of just waiting for it to just

11:44

come out, I think it's better that I

11:46

get to at least say what happened than

11:48

it coming out in the news. People calling

11:50

me like crazy. I'd rather just get it

11:52

out there. I mean,

11:54

Carol, it's such an indictment of what

11:56

Trump's gotten away with in terms of

11:59

witness tampering and characterist. fascination. And

12:01

it started with, I guess it started with Jim

12:03

Comey, it probably started before that, if I had

12:05

a second to think about it, who couldn't quote,

12:07

see to it to let Mike Flynn go, see

12:09

to it to let him go. He's a good

12:11

guy, end quote. I mean, it goes on and

12:14

on. Anyone who tries to come down on the

12:16

side, this was Trump's employee, this is a guy

12:18

who probably has a couple red MAGA hats in

12:20

his closet, I'm guessing. Who,

12:22

who when the FBI came knocking and he goes

12:24

on to say just wants his life back. I

12:29

have to say, you know, in terms of character,

12:31

again, I'm thinking

12:34

about the narrative of this, this

12:38

seemingly very credible and also

12:40

very genteel person who, who

12:43

explains that many of these

12:45

individuals who are, are

12:47

charged as co conspirators were either

12:49

bosses he liked Donald Trump initially,

12:52

or close, close friends, he's essentially,

12:54

I think one of the most

12:58

heart wrenching pieces of Caitlin's

13:00

interview with him is is

13:02

when Mr. Butler describes that

13:04

his friendship is divided and

13:06

almost over and has been

13:08

for some time. He

13:11

compares it to the way in which the

13:13

country has been divided by Donald Trump. Donald

13:15

Trump got his friend to do something that

13:18

then got him a lawyer when he was

13:20

in trouble. And now that

13:22

friend is, is indicted along

13:24

with Donald Trump, and they can't

13:27

speak to each other. It's legally dangerous

13:30

for all sorts of reasons. Brian

13:32

Butler chose to get independent

13:35

counsel, and he sees Donald Trump

13:37

as a danger for misleading the

13:39

public about how much he tried

13:41

to interfere and corrupt a criminal

13:44

investigation by the Department of Justice.

13:46

And he does not view this

13:48

as a witch hunt. And he

13:50

now sees how Donald Trump basically

13:54

Got a bunch of his close friends

13:56

and former colleagues in a lot of

13:58

legal hot water and unwind.. The to

14:00

sort of tell his story, but

14:02

when he described that break in

14:04

this long term friendships as being

14:06

similar to breaks that are happening

14:08

all across the country, singer really

14:11

got me. Yes, I mean look

14:13

and it's got an echo and her to

14:15

cast they had since and story. As sick

14:17

as I'm with a lawyer firm hired for

14:19

her, she doesn't tell the truth is an

14:21

array Sex for money. She hires independent counsel

14:24

on and tells the truth. I want to

14:26

show a little bit more of the testament

14:28

he provided because this is seemingly senseless attacks

14:30

in this case And and ask about that

14:32

Mrs. Butler describing the Australian billionaire. Am

14:34

Mister Pratt. I

14:39

believe it was April with Twenty

14:41

Twenty One I'm there was a

14:43

member Anthony Pratt who. He

14:47

was coming easy flew in the

14:49

night before. He's Australian billionaire. See.

14:51

Finishes his meeting with the former

14:53

President. Gets in the car and

14:55

his chief of staff says how

14:57

did the meeting go Pratt without

14:59

saying just says. He. Told

15:02

me and it would be a

15:04

know Us military you know classified

15:06

information of what he told him

15:08

about Russian submarines and Us summer.

15:12

And that's really all I remember hearing. I

15:14

what was going on. Thinking that I'm in

15:16

the car. A voice that I just hear

15:18

that. So. Where where wasn't like.

15:21

Oh the meeting or well we talked

15:23

about it was he went straight to

15:25

the point he told me that the

15:27

of us sobs and with the russian

15:29

subs and you know something that would

15:31

prob more than likely my my be

15:33

classified entity pratt this also employed are

15:35

they are talking about see would pay.

15:38

A. Lot of money to to com and

15:40

has. Disney or the Party so on outside.

15:44

My cause the thousand and fifteen hundred

15:46

dollars per person he was giving a

15:48

million dollars. And I think

15:50

at the height he had. Thirty

15:52

or forty people there. So.

15:56

something that would be fifty thousand to

15:58

save max fifty years ago that's

16:00

just buying access. It's very easy

16:04

to see. So again

16:06

either wittingly or unwittingly, not just adding

16:08

Trump for the the spillage or the

16:10

leakage or whatever we want to call

16:12

it, revealing state secrets to an Australian

16:15

billionaire about submarines, military

16:17

submarines ours and Russia's, but

16:19

also describing the pay-to-play. So

16:22

I'm going to relate this in

16:25

one way to Judge Cannon just to

16:27

hit that note again in terms

16:29

of what she's doing, but in a recent decision

16:31

one of the reasons she said that Donald Trump

16:34

can be trusted with seeing

16:36

classified and having classified information

16:38

is because there's no charge

16:41

in the indictment that he disseminated any

16:43

of this information. First of all that's

16:45

not the standard whether he's charged with it.

16:47

There is evidence of it and we

16:49

just heard it. The

16:52

idea that she's so cavalier, this is why

16:54

she was reversed by the 11th Circuit and

16:57

as you and I have talked about, if

16:59

you have been in the intelligence community listening

17:02

to what we just listened to, it's

17:06

so hard to convey this to the public

17:08

how unimaginable

17:10

it is. You feel such

17:12

an obligation in terms of the information

17:14

you have and your responsibility as a

17:17

public servant and you still have that

17:19

obligation after you leave the Department of

17:21

Justice. I saw tons of

17:24

highly classified material and I really wish

17:26

I'd never done it and never seen

17:28

it. The idea that

17:30

you would have no

17:32

sense of obligation to

17:34

anyone other than yourself in terms

17:37

of telling anyone let

17:39

alone a foreigner when

17:41

this is the kinds of information

17:43

that are listed in the indictment. You

17:46

can't have more serious information

17:48

about our military capabilities,

17:51

what we know about

17:53

military capabilities of other

17:55

countries. The Idea that you

17:57

would spirit that away to an insecure

17:59

location. And then also talk

18:01

about it. Anything like that is

18:04

is unimaginable com and it's to

18:06

me that as the kind of

18:08

question of for the public and

18:11

thinking about why would you want

18:13

that person to ever. Have.

18:15

Access to that information again. One

18:18

Claire as it turned around. As I

18:20

said it, ill suited transfer. Over. A

18:24

server. They can a O L from

18:26

our our legal system lessons tests to

18:28

not have these trials mean this guy

18:30

is is credible from the top and

18:33

since add to the bottom of this

18:35

is this guy was in charge of

18:37

the car services guy was spying on

18:39

transistor with i'm watching Msnbc is going

18:42

to best friends or or Trump's codefendants

18:44

Walt now to and I think employee

18:46

number three Carlos the Oliveira has charged

18:48

is a superseding indictment and he's telling

18:51

us. That. No Way.

18:53

No how. Should Trump be

18:55

and you here the Oval Office? That's why.

18:57

Trump doesn't wanna try. And

19:01

the interesting thing is when he mentions

19:03

that the com and throwaway line during

19:05

this period of time Mullahs Biden did

19:07

it. Biden get it didn't do this.

19:09

this was a me they were running

19:11

those boxes out of their right to

19:14

for the as the I came to

19:16

pick him up. They. Were

19:18

to get them out of

19:20

here in the sense of

19:22

something. This afternoon they were

19:24

trying to delete video tape

19:26

did so damn trying to

19:28

hide these boxes that I

19:30

mean he cavalierly so some

19:32

woman writing a book. The.

19:35

Military's plan that would be

19:37

implemented if We ever invaded

19:39

Iran. The

19:41

mean this is this is

19:43

so different it is. it's

19:45

a wrap. This reveals the

19:47

criminal. and

19:50

a you know we used to tell

19:52

young prosecutors all the time pay attention

19:54

to what to defend does after he

19:56

commits a crime because that kills the

19:58

jury the story That tells

20:01

the jury that this is someone who

20:03

did something they knew was wrong and

20:05

they're trying to hide it. That's not

20:07

what Joe Biden did. Joe

20:10

Biden called and said, please come and get it

20:12

and I'll answer any questions you've got immediately. If

20:15

Trump had done that, he never would have been

20:18

charged. Claire

20:20

and Andrew, stick around a little bit longer

20:22

with us. Carolyn, I thank you

20:24

for starting us off on this story

20:26

today. It's always great to get to

20:28

talk to you about these things. Still

20:30

to come for us, Democrats pushing, sorry,

20:34

our teleprompter has stopped pushing back

20:36

today. Again, Special Counsel Robert Herr

20:38

and how the Trump-appointed former U.S.

20:41

Attorney portrayed President Joe Biden's memory,

20:43

calling the report a political hit

20:45

job and saying that the Special

20:47

Counsel knew exactly what firestorm would

20:49

develop with its release and its

20:51

attempt to equate the behavior between

20:53

Biden and Trump. Congressman Dan Goldman

20:55

joins our conversation on how Robert

20:58

Herr was received on Capitol Hill

21:00

today. Plus Donald Trump promising on

21:02

day one to 300s of

21:04

violent insurrectionists who stormed the U.S.

21:06

Capitol on January 6th. Getting

21:08

an assist today in that from some in

21:10

the House GOP. And later

21:12

in the broadcast for our series, American

21:15

Autocracy, it could happen here, what

21:17

President Joe Biden and his administration are doing

21:19

to make sure that it doesn't. Secretary

21:22

Pete Buttigieg will be our guest right here

21:24

in the studio at the table. All those

21:26

stories of war when deadline White House continues

21:28

after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. There's

21:36

no person that wants loyalty more

21:39

than the former president. I mean, he says it all

21:42

the time. Given how other people

21:44

who have been in Trump's orbit and

21:47

left and told the truth and

21:49

how they've been treated, did it ever make

21:52

you hesitate to know? I look, I was

21:54

always going to tell the truth. But

21:56

you know, after

21:59

one of the interviews, with the justice,

22:01

the investigators on this case. I

22:04

think it got real when at the

22:06

end of, it was either my second or third,

22:08

fourth time talking to them where they said at

22:11

the end of it, oh, by the way, all

22:13

of your grand jury testimony, witness testimony

22:15

has been turned over to the Trump defense.

22:18

At that point, you're like, oh

22:21

boy, you know. Oh

22:23

boy, because we know what happens next. Andrew and Claire

22:25

are back with us. I

22:27

mean, this is this very real conversation. We

22:30

talk about it sometimes in abstract terms, but now

22:32

we have a man who's talked about his wife,

22:34

who's gone on television to do something extraordinary. So

22:37

Ruby Freeman, Shay Moss,

22:40

E. Jean Carroll, and then Cassie

22:43

Hutchinson, Sarah Matthews. I mean, there's the

22:45

litany of people, and

22:47

you have somebody who has no compunction

22:49

about outing all of this

22:52

information. This is why there is, just

22:54

to be clear, what's going on legally. That's

22:57

sort of in the

22:59

world, but this is just

23:01

to get back to Judge Cannon. Her decision

23:04

was that these witness names

23:06

and their statements can just

23:08

be added as if there's

23:10

not real world threats going

23:13

on to judges and prosecutors

23:15

and witnesses, and soon jurors,

23:17

if their names are revealed.

23:20

And what is pending now

23:22

is the government's motion to reconsider that, and

23:24

you heard from this witness that that was

23:26

one of the factors for why he came forward,

23:29

because he could sort of see the writing on the wall that

23:31

this was gonna happen, and he figured I better just get

23:33

out ahead of it. That is

23:35

not how our justice system should work. The

23:39

idea that witnesses are worried

23:41

about being threatened is

23:44

the kind of thing I worried about when I

23:46

used to do organized crime cases a million years

23:48

ago. That is not something

23:50

that I worried about when I was doing

23:52

the Enron case, and it's a white collar

23:54

case. That isn't done. The

23:57

idea that this is happening in

23:59

these political. corruption cases tells you everything

24:01

about Donald Trump and the world

24:03

where this isn't sort

24:06

of universally reviled as unacceptable and

24:08

that you're seeing in civil cases

24:11

and in criminal cases

24:13

the judges having to take steps to

24:16

protect the judicial

24:18

process from the former president of

24:20

the United States. And current nominee

24:23

of the Republican Party. That's extraordinary. Claire,

24:27

you mentioned and frankly

24:29

the witness in this interview of

24:31

Caitlin Collins mentioned that the private

24:33

conversation was we all touched boxes,

24:35

we're all dirty. Biden did it,

24:37

Trump did it. You made

24:39

the point. No, he

24:42

didn't. Here's Adam Schiff making

24:44

a similar point to Mr.

24:46

Her today. That's the Republican

24:49

Trump holdover who looked at

24:51

Biden's turning over classified documents.

24:55

You were not born yesterday. You

24:57

understood exactly what you were doing.

25:00

It was a choice. You

25:02

certainly didn't have to include that language. You

25:04

could have said vis-a-vis the documents that were

25:06

found at the university. The president did not

25:09

recall. There is nothing more common. You know

25:11

this. I know this. There is nothing more

25:13

common with a witness of any age when

25:15

asked about events that are years old to

25:18

say I do not recall. Indeed they're instructed

25:20

by their attorney to do that if they

25:22

have any question about it. You understood that.

25:25

You made a choice. That was a

25:27

political choice. It was the wrong choice.

25:31

Claire, so her, I

25:33

guess it was not a holdover, was

25:35

asked to look at Biden's handling and

25:38

turning over documents. He goes out,

25:40

I was still on leave, but this was one of

25:42

the few stories that I saw. He

25:44

goes out before the transcript

25:46

is released, which has an echo in

25:48

Del Barre going out before the Mueller

25:50

report is released and characterizes his interview

25:53

with Biden. Transcript

25:55

came out. I read the whole thing. Biden

25:57

talks the way anybody talks and anyone with

25:59

a tran- tries to put that event in

26:01

the context of the other things that were happening in

26:03

their life. And it would have

26:05

been fair for her to come out and

26:07

say, Biden turned to others in the room to confirm

26:09

the year in which his son, Beau, died, whether it

26:11

was 15 or 16. It also would have been accurate

26:13

for her to come out and say, Biden digressed.

26:18

We talked about all sorts of things. He even worked in

26:20

the fact that his wife, Jill Biden, is hot. You might

26:22

find a picture of her in a bathing suit. That would

26:24

have been fair and legit. That's not what her does. Her

26:27

comes out and smears

26:30

the press in the United States, says

26:32

his memory is too faulty to hold

26:35

accountable for retaining classified documents, which is

26:37

not what his own transcript of his

26:39

own interview says. My

26:42

worry is that the lie in the smear

26:44

gets all the way around the globe several

26:46

dozen times before half a dozen people read

26:48

a transcript. But what were your thoughts about

26:50

what went down today on Capitol Hill? Well,

26:54

Jim Comey started this

26:57

by characterizing a decision

27:00

that in the history of the

27:02

Justice Department, at least the modern Justice

27:04

Department I'm familiar with, and I know

27:06

Andrew is familiar with, you don't make

27:09

your own opinions and comments when

27:12

you've made a decision not to file criminal

27:14

charges. You're playing with people's

27:16

lives here. I don't care if you're Joe

27:19

Schmo or you're Joe Biden. You

27:21

do not characterize a decision to

27:24

not charge someone criminally with your

27:26

own opinions or with any window

27:28

dressing whatsoever. Bill Barr

27:30

did it with the Mueller report in

27:32

a way that was really despicable. And

27:35

now her does it. And

27:37

she's right. This is a smart

27:40

man. He knew exactly what he was

27:42

doing. He was trying to put his

27:44

finger on the scale politically. And we

27:47

don't do that in our criminal justice

27:49

system in the United States of America,

27:52

period. And the fact that he did

27:54

it really tars his

27:56

legacy. And the idea that he tried

27:58

to be righteously indignant. today is if

28:00

he somehow was above this criticism is

28:03

frankly sickening. So I noticed

28:05

over his shoulder was Bill Burke, who was also over

28:07

the shoulder of John Durham when he faced

28:10

questioning from Congress about the

28:12

potential political influence of the

28:14

Durham report, the much bellied

28:16

investigation that amounted

28:18

to nothing, a bunch of legal defeats and

28:20

not much else. So

28:23

her seems to understand what Claire's articulating. What are

28:25

your thoughts about what's going on here? A

28:28

couple things. So I couldn't agree more

28:30

with Claire's comments

28:32

and Adam Schiff's comments

28:34

in terms of the propriety of

28:37

what was said and done.

28:39

And I would add to your comments that

28:41

one thing if he wanted to play it

28:43

straight and just be by the book, he

28:45

could have said, by the way, he also

28:47

had a photographic memory, which is one of

28:49

the things that her says to the president

28:51

about his recall. So in

28:53

other words, if you're going to play it straight, you have

28:55

to have the good and the bad. And

28:57

this was one where it was so easy to play it

29:00

straight. I mean, this is really this is not complicated. No

29:03

crime here. It's not a crime unless

29:05

you have willful retention. There obviously is

29:07

no obstruction. It clearly is absolutely

29:10

different than Donald Trump in

29:12

terms of, you know, apple and oranges.

29:14

So what happens to these prosecutors like Durham and like

29:17

her? What happens to them? Nothing. Nothing

29:19

is going to happen to him. But how did they get to

29:21

this point? Were they I mean, because I think to this point,

29:23

you know what you're doing. So that's my

29:25

other point, which is it was a

29:27

mistake to appoint Rob her by

29:30

Mark Rowan. Exactly. You know,

29:32

you knew what you were getting one day. I

29:35

don't I'm not sort of like a know it all sort

29:37

of like I told you so. But

29:40

everyone knew who he was. And

29:43

who was he? He is. It's not that

29:45

just because you worked in the in

29:48

the Trump Justice Department that you're somehow

29:50

evil or wrong. But just remember, not

29:52

only was he a senior official

29:54

in the Trump Department of Justice, but

29:57

he did something that will resonate with

29:59

Claire as well. to how improper it

30:01

is and tells you about his moral

30:03

fiber, there's a rule that

30:05

the Justice Department is supposed to be separate

30:07

from the White House. You

30:10

do not make calls on cases based on

30:12

what the White House wants. That

30:15

is the road to autocracy. That is what

30:17

we're facing now. He

30:20

gave a press conference at

30:22

the White House. It's

30:25

hard to convey how big

30:27

a deal that is, but for everybody

30:29

who is steeped in being at

30:32

the Department of Justice, current and former

30:34

people, that is

30:36

a line you do not cross. And

30:39

so as soon as I saw that, I was like, okay,

30:41

you know what you have here. And

30:44

I think that this idea that you

30:46

pick a Republican because I don't want

30:49

to be criticized because I pick a

30:51

Democrat, they're going to say, oh, he's

30:53

going to pull his punches, is

30:55

a thing you have to fight at the outset. If

30:58

you have this idea that you're going

31:01

to only appoint Republicans to investigate Republicans

31:03

and Republicans to investigate Democrats, I mean,

31:05

what world is that? And what you're buying

31:08

into is the idea that people don't act

31:10

out of principle. At

31:12

the Justice Department— You are acting

31:14

political. Exactly. That decision to appoint

31:16

Rob Herr, he is not. I

31:18

mean, with all due respect to him in terms of—I'm

31:20

sure he is like a good lawyer, but he

31:23

is not the best person for the

31:25

job. That's what you should be looking

31:27

for, not the best Republican for the

31:29

job. And so that was really

31:31

a mistake. It was political in a small

31:33

p sense and buying sort of peace

31:36

in the short term. But this,

31:38

as night falls the day, this is what was going

31:40

to happen. All right. No one's going

31:42

anywhere. We're going to bring Congressman Dan Goldman into this

31:44

very conversation. Stay with us. Hello,

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Free all lowercase

32:45

shopify.com/podcast free shopify.com

32:47

slash podcast free The

32:53

desperate quest to invent an issue is a

32:55

distraction from the 91 federal and state

32:58

federal charges that Donald Trump

33:00

faces now. His staggering civil

33:02

court losses in New York

33:04

now totaling more than a

33:06

half a billion dollars and

33:08

his full-blown embrace

33:11

and romance with authoritarian dictators

33:13

and communist tyrants all over

33:15

the world from Victor Orban

33:17

in Hungary to Vladimir Putin

33:19

in Russia, the former head

33:21

of the KGB to the communist dictator

33:23

of North Korea. It's

33:26

not... my

33:29

friends, this is a memory test, but

33:32

it's not a memory test for President Biden.

33:35

It's a memory test for

33:37

all of America. That's us

33:39

guys, a memory test for all

33:41

of us. That powerful, searing message

33:43

from Congressman Jamie Raskin. We expect

33:45

nothing less at this point. It

33:48

was earlier today at this hearing we've

33:50

been talking about that the questioning of

33:53

special counsel Robert Herr who investigated President

33:55

Joe Biden's handling of classified documents. Congressman

33:57

Raskin reminding all of us that while

33:59

Republicans... Americans use today's hearing and her's

34:02

report to attack Joe Biden on his

34:04

age and his memory. The president's very

34:06

likely opponent in the 2024 race is

34:09

busy facing dozens of criminal charges and

34:11

cozying up to dictators he seeks to

34:14

emulate. Her's report last night

34:16

did not charge President Joe Biden with a

34:18

crime, a stark contrast to

34:20

the investigation into Trump's handling of

34:22

classified documents. And Democrats today slammed

34:24

the special counsel for how he

34:27

characterized the president's memory in

34:29

his report. Washington Post points out today

34:31

that the release of the full her

34:33

transcript shows this, quote, Biden doesn't come

34:35

across as being as absent minded as

34:37

her has made him out to be.

34:40

The full transcript provides a more complete window into

34:42

the back and forth between the two men in

34:45

which Biden frequently joked with prosecutors in

34:47

a setting that seemed more chummy than

34:50

antagonistic. Joining our coverage, Carson Dan Goldman

34:52

of New York. Carson, thanks for being

34:54

here. Thanks for having me, Nicole. You

34:57

know, this is so interesting. I

35:00

was I was out and

35:02

so I was catching little bits of news,

35:04

probably more like people consume news and those

35:06

of us who work in it. And I

35:08

remember seeing Biden's response

35:10

as a very quick, rapid response

35:12

to her's characterization. No transcript

35:14

was released very much like like the Mueller

35:17

report came out. Bill Barr went out there

35:19

before the report was out there. When

35:21

I read the whole transcript, as I did when

35:23

I was up in the wee hours this morning,

35:25

it's clear why Biden felt so, I think,

35:28

betrayed by the characterization. How

35:31

do you, though, in this era, get

35:33

all of the nuance of the transcript

35:35

out ahead of the smearing that her

35:37

did with this characterization? Well,

35:40

look, I think that's part of the problem. And

35:43

this also goes to the attorney general

35:45

who ultimately did release

35:48

the report and without the

35:50

transcript. But it

35:52

does confirm exactly what many

35:55

of my Democratic colleagues on the Judiciary Committee pointed

35:57

out today and that I've been saying for a

35:59

while. is he cherry-picked

36:01

information that was politically damaging

36:04

to Joe Biden to include

36:06

it in the report and

36:08

he left out contrary information

36:11

from the transcript and from the

36:14

interview that would have contradicted that

36:16

conclusion. For

36:18

a prosecutor to actually say in

36:21

an interview of a witness that

36:23

you have a photographic memory and

36:26

then in a report to say

36:28

that your memory lapses are

36:31

so significant because of your age is

36:34

really, really misleading and devious.

36:36

And I think it just

36:38

underscores how political Mr.

36:41

Herr was in drafting this report and

36:44

my colleague and former boss Adam Schiff

36:46

pointed that out so well today in

36:49

the hearing. So you're describing

36:51

her today as misleading and devious.

36:55

Those are strong words. I

36:58

just in that spirit, I want to show you Ted Liu's

37:01

questioning of him who seems to

37:03

perhaps predicate his

37:06

questioning on perhaps the same

37:08

conclusion. In

37:11

your investigation, did you find that

37:13

President Biden directed his lawyer to lie to the

37:15

FBI? We

37:17

identified no such evidence. Did

37:19

you find that President Biden directed his lawyer

37:22

to destroy classified documents? No. Did

37:25

you find that President Biden directed his personal assistant

37:27

to move boxes of documents to hide them from

37:29

the FBI? No. Did

37:31

you find that President Biden directed his personal

37:34

assistant to delete security camera footage after

37:36

the FBI asked for that footage? No. Did

37:39

you find that President Biden showed a

37:41

classified map related to an ongoing military

37:43

operation to a campaign aide who did

37:45

not have clearance? No. Did

37:48

you find that President Biden engaged in a conspiracy

37:50

to obstruct justice? No. Did

37:52

you find that President Biden engaged in a scheme to conceal?

37:55

No. Each of the activities

37:57

I just laid out describe what Donald Trump

37:59

did. in his willful mishandling of

38:01

classifier information and his criminal efforts to deceive

38:03

the FBI. If

38:06

you saw Caitlin Collins, pretty masterful,

38:08

an interview of witness number

38:11

five in the Mar-a-Lago case, you

38:13

saw that he described that the conversation

38:15

was around the moving of the boxes containing

38:17

state secrets at Mar-a-Lago. He said

38:19

that what we talked about was that, you know, we

38:22

all did it, Biden did it. I mean, this effort

38:24

and anyone that participates in it to

38:27

make it sound like everybody does it

38:29

has damaging consequences for our state secrets.

38:31

What are the national security implications of

38:33

these two seemingly dueling

38:36

investigations that Maric Garland ordered

38:38

into Biden and Trump? Well,

38:41

they're significant because what Donald Trump did,

38:44

and I think Congressman

38:46

Liu laid out the litany of

38:48

things that he did very well was so

38:51

dangerous. And it is

38:53

the fact of the obstruction and the

38:56

knowingly and willful obstruction that can

38:58

only be explained by the fact

39:00

that he must have wanted those

39:02

documents to do something with them.

39:04

And if he did anything with

39:07

those documents, he's violating the law

39:09

because certainly he's violating the law

39:11

to have them, but to disseminate

39:13

them. And if he knows their

39:15

classified material, which he clearly did

39:17

by the fact of instruction, then

39:19

he is trying to disseminate them

39:21

illegally and that endangers our national

39:23

security. And if we're gonna have

39:25

this, everybody does it. Oh,

39:27

Joe Biden had some classified information. Donald

39:30

Trump had some classified information. It's all

39:32

the same. This is just how it

39:34

works. Mike Pence did too. Then

39:36

we missed the point. And what

39:39

was egregious about Donald Trump's conduct

39:41

was not necessarily that there was

39:43

classified information in his boxes that

39:45

were probably packed by somebody else.

39:48

That's bad and we need to address

39:50

that in Congress especially. But it's that

39:52

he then learned of it. If

39:55

he didn't know it already and actively

39:58

tried to keep those documents. That's

40:00

the national security, real national security

40:02

risk. And that gets

40:05

undermined by this false equivalency

40:07

between Biden and Trump. Dan,

40:10

you were in the Justice Department for

40:13

many years. What's the answer?

40:15

How do we deal with the world we seem to

40:17

be in where

40:19

the Attorney General feels

40:22

like they have to have

40:24

a Republican appointed as a

40:26

special counsel to investigate a Republican

40:28

and a Republican appointed

40:30

to investigate a Democrat? To

40:34

me, that always seems to buy into the idea

40:36

that the special counsel can't act

40:38

out of principle. And

40:41

that seems to be in some ways the

40:43

root cause of the problem because it doesn't

40:45

seem like a surprise that Rob Herr acted

40:47

the way he did given his history. Well,

40:51

to be clear, the reason is

40:53

that Democrats broadly care

40:55

very much about the separation of

40:57

the DOJ and the White House,

40:59

care very much about the rule

41:02

of law, care very much about

41:04

making sure that our criminal process

41:06

is independent from politics. And so

41:08

that is why Democratic attorneys general

41:10

have appointed Republican

41:12

special counsel. And

41:14

that's confirmed that Republicans don't care about

41:17

that because they don't take those measures

41:20

to try to boost the credibility

41:22

to the extent that anyone thinks

41:24

it's political, but Andrew, I think the problem is

41:26

even more than that, which is that

41:28

since 2016, Donald

41:30

Trump has politicized absolutely

41:33

everything in our government. He

41:35

has politicized the Department of

41:37

Justice in our criminal process.

41:39

He has politicized our intelligence

41:41

and our intelligence community. And

41:43

traditionally, those two entities

41:45

are within the executive

41:48

branch have been apolitical

41:50

and very importantly so.

41:52

But if you are going to

41:54

politicize everything, then you

41:57

are going to tarnish Any

41:59

form of a... objective independence

42:01

or review And that is

42:03

what Donald Trump has inflicted

42:05

on this country. And that's

42:08

why I suspect Merrick Garland

42:10

felt like he needed to

42:12

have a point someone from

42:14

a different party to investigate

42:16

the President to make sure

42:18

that there can be no

42:21

allegations, even though you're right

42:23

that they're generally false of

42:25

of any kind of political

42:27

interference. Something. Less than a member

42:29

of that party I can assure everyone and anybody

42:31

has a lot saying that there is have placating

42:33

this her hand and this is how and party

42:36

with a things as if on his as do

42:38

the right thanks I'm and let the chips fall

42:40

where they may and percent tangle then always a

42:42

pleasure talking Thank you very much my fans. Thank

42:45

you. For high school turns

42:47

as the news of Thousand F L

42:49

R M C and why it may

42:51

not seem that bad of a political

42:53

story for democrat. We

43:01

have a con artist as the front runner

43:03

republican party or guy. a guy who was

43:05

made a career out of telling people lie

43:07

so that they come in and by his

43:10

product or whatever he does. You ever heard

43:12

of Trump Vodka? You

43:14

are more than around anymore. Or

43:17

Trump mattress. Or Trump Air

43:20

Or Trump Eyes. Are. Trump

43:22

Water. Those are all businesses that

43:24

are gone because they were disasters.

43:26

Okay, Some. Hot air. So

43:29

we cannot allow the conservative movement to

43:31

be taken over by a con artist

43:34

because the stakes are too high. And

43:38

as I've ever said this on the

43:40

air of Martell, I agree with you

43:42

tragically that the see her Twenty Six

43:44

team fast forward to Twenty Twenty Four

43:47

and the client is still very much

43:49

alive and well as Marco Rubio told

43:51

us it would be consumed. Daughter in

43:54

law is now the culture of the

43:56

Rnc and she's acting on a mandate

43:58

to divert our and see committee spending

44:00

a week they from down ballot races

44:03

for instance and toward stuff important to

44:05

her. And her father in

44:07

law firm. Serious legal fees for the

44:09

party take over. doesn't stop there.

44:11

Politico was first to report that were

44:14

in the early stages of what it

44:16

reports is a quote bloodbath at the

44:18

Rnc. Sixty staffers like oh this

44:20

week including five of the most senior

44:23

staff twenty our coverage from Rnc spokesman

44:25

said before podcast him miller his

44:27

lips as claris of us as well.

44:29

So Tim influences. Party.

44:32

Structure of the Rnc was

44:34

the last thing standing between

44:36

from using all of the

44:38

money on whatever he spends

44:40

on his hairdo, his legal

44:42

bills, whatever else. This is

44:44

great news. For. Down Ballot

44:46

Races Which means State Legislatures top

44:49

earners com. I mean, this is

44:51

a political debacle, said the Republican

44:54

Party. Job

44:56

and or the do these Big advantage

44:59

right now to cool and as as

45:01

you've played ah Job I'd been is

45:03

already on the show up with a

45:05

with if you intend to frame. This

45:07

really sucks. Meanwhile your the Republicans are

45:09

reorganizing Republican National Committee. you know either

45:12

supposed to be does he look you

45:14

wouldn't one or two copies of people

45:16

around him uma were to prospect of

45:18

a day and done So I think

45:20

he's going to try to restructure this

45:22

or and seats and try to get

45:25

some people that you. Didn't. Do

45:27

Not do so eager to be competing

45:29

with the President's own daughter in law

45:31

who has said that's your She's gonna

45:33

make sure that money that comes into

45:35

that communities is going to legal fees.

45:37

So I think that we're looking at

45:39

a big financial advantage for the Democrats,

45:41

at least to the spring and summer.

45:43

we'll see if they can clear up.

45:45

It's belated the summer. I do think

45:47

this as an impact lessons or don't

45:49

you This do like advertising but more

45:51

of the the ground game. Elements of

45:53

these are down ballot races. Rye Ipa

45:55

get the offices. You know making sure

45:58

that the state party or will resort

46:00

you're all of the as is being

46:02

funneled as essentially into I did Trump

46:04

he slowly slush funds purity of a

46:07

couple pack sitter with bits are finally

46:09

into a Trump slush fund, his wealth

46:11

and to have the actual Republican National

46:13

Committee that committee doing that is it

46:16

Lets you say a very big departure

46:18

would be an understatement from you know

46:20

what type of committee work is on

46:22

of that. Claire. Chris

46:24

less severe as a smart smart guy

46:27

that a campaign chairman assessing the Santos

46:29

or fan and add as a family

46:31

with tentacles Oliver Everything can I add.

46:34

In. The past and as normal of campaigns

46:36

also be in charge of the party functions

46:38

as this is as it can happen. it

46:41

doesn't work with what is your sense of

46:43

the strategic advantage gained. For Democrats

46:45

asleep. The

46:47

first of all, I never argue with

46:49

you. But I

46:52

gotta say I can

46:54

call anyone. Who. Is

46:56

making their life's work at this moment in

46:58

time? Returning Donald Trump to the

47:00

Oval office smart Sam is something.

47:03

That. Has fair there

47:06

something wrong with this man com

47:08

because his you were smart he

47:10

would run he would not in

47:12

brass you will not be part

47:14

of efforts. And here's what's really

47:16

going on. You know Trump Went

47:18

on Squawk Box this week. And.

47:21

Said was he thought that audience wanted

47:23

to hear. Because he's desperate for

47:25

money. and people who watch Squawk

47:27

Box have money. There. Was

47:29

treat their people who. Deal In the

47:32

Financial sector. Trump is desperate to

47:34

break into the big money sector

47:36

right now because he is running

47:38

on fumes because he suffered so

47:40

much of poor people out there

47:42

that believe this guy that are

47:44

saying, and ten twenty forty sixty

47:46

bucks he's using all of those

47:48

tens of millions of dollars to

47:50

pay his more. So now he's

47:52

got a daughter in law and

47:54

he's got somebody who is clearly

47:56

not thinking straight because he's helping

47:58

Trump. Prepared. The

48:00

orange see to the bare minimum

48:02

so they can just move all

48:04

that money over to Trump Here

48:06

in whatever way see once and

48:08

it is right where this really

48:10

hurts his state parties and Ground

48:12

Game said that the store and

48:14

see in the Dnc never by

48:16

and say no. Never been an

48:18

ad for governor candidates but what

48:20

they do is a help identify

48:22

voter files. They help build a

48:24

voter files that help The Ground

48:27

Game volunteers to be organized with

48:29

Stephanie to individual. State so it

48:31

is good news for a team.

48:33

Jeffries. And. Said Santa. Clara

48:36

you should always say like you can are

48:38

here with me the other way of the

48:40

right like for high you're only through a

48:43

lot of in similar egg reading of cyber

48:45

have to come back tomorrow or finishes conversations

48:47

tomorrow and your wife and six around because

48:49

he already knows he can check out he

48:52

can never leave When we come back for

48:54

on our American autocracy it could happen here

48:56

Therese, philosopher him or what clarify came out

48:59

some plans I second term they include releasing

49:01

but he describes as say six hostages don't

49:03

go anywhere. For

49:11

first up our will to. Reject.

49:14

Control The virus is ruined so

49:16

many lives. President George W. Bush

49:19

will keep the promise of social

49:21

Security. No changes, Know reductions,

49:23

No way not football or plan

49:25

for universal healthcare to cut the

49:28

cost of healthcare. More.

49:30

Than any other candidate

49:32

Read my lips. Jaws

49:38

Education. Healthcare.

49:42

These. Are not just commitments from

49:45

my lips? They

49:47

are the work of my life. I

49:51

get everyone is half out of our the

49:53

New York so when run for office they

49:55

articulate and agenda to say want to enact

49:58

right off the bat say putting. to

50:00

affect initiatives that set the tone for their

50:02

entire time in office. But

50:04

for the man who tonight is expected to officially

50:06

clinch the 2024 Republican

50:08

presidential nomination, his

50:11

first act, should he prevail in November, sound

50:13

quite a bit different from all of those.

50:15

In a post on Truth Social last night,

50:18

Trump wrote this, quote, my first act as

50:20

your next president will be to close the

50:22

border, drill baby drill in

50:24

all caps and free the January

50:26

6th hostages being wrongfully imprisoned. Let's

50:29

stop right there and talk about

50:31

those January 6th insurrectionists and rioters,

50:33

not hostages, as Trump calls them.

50:36

On January 6th, 2021, there was

50:38

a deadly insurrection against the United

50:41

States government. A mob of rioters

50:43

stormed the Capitol with the explicit

50:45

goal of stopping an official proceeding

50:47

that was underway. Men

50:49

and women charged the building. They

50:51

smashed windows. They violently attacked and

50:53

harmed members of law enforcement. They

50:55

damaged government property and who

50:58

couldn't ever forget, they called for the

51:00

hanging of the Republican then vice president

51:02

Mike Pence. These are the people Trump

51:05

wants to set free. This

51:27

is the

51:31

people Trump's

51:36

calling hostages.

51:47

Now following that fateful day, the

51:50

department of justice undertook its most

51:52

sprawling investigation in its history. The

51:54

department has since charged about 1300

51:56

people for their roles in the

51:59

deadly attack. Nearly 500 have

52:01

been sentenced to jail. They

52:03

are not, to a person, wrongfully

52:06

imprisoned. They are simply facing the

52:08

consequences for crimes any of

52:11

them admit to committing. Defender

52:13

of the rule of law, Republican Liz Cheney,

52:15

tweeting this, quote, if your response to Trump's

52:18

assault on our democracy is to lie and

52:20

cover up what he did to attack the

52:23

brave men and women who came

52:25

forward with the truth and defend

52:27

the criminals who violently assaulted the

52:30

Capitol, then you need to rethink whose side

52:32

you're on. Hint, it is

52:34

not America's. Before we start the hour

52:36

with some of our favorite experts and

52:38

friends, former January 6th select committee member,

52:41

Democratic Congresswoman Zill Lopgren is here with

52:43

us. She's also a member of the

52:45

House Judiciary Committee, also joining us, MSNBC

52:47

contributor and columnist, Charlie Sykes. Andrew Weissman

52:50

is back with us. Congresswoman

52:52

Liz Cheney seems to be saying it is

52:54

un-American to do what Trump did last night

52:56

on Truth Social. Do you agree? I

52:59

sure do. I mean, for a candidate

53:01

for president to say the first thing he's going

53:03

to do is to open the prison

53:05

doors and let a bunch of criminals out,

53:08

that's pretty shocking. And you know,

53:10

these are individuals who

53:12

have been convicted. Nearly

53:15

800 people pled guilty. And how

53:17

many have been exonerated? Just

53:20

three so far. So the

53:22

officers, officers they hurt, I mean,

53:24

like Sergeant Ganel, who I'm still

53:26

in touch with, he was injured

53:28

so severely he had to retire

53:31

from the force. They tried to

53:33

gouge out Officer Hodges' eye. They

53:35

caused Officer Vanel

53:38

to have a stroke. I mean,

53:40

this was a vicious, vicious, brutal,

53:43

criminal attack. And

53:46

they should be held to account they're not

53:48

hostages, they're criminals. And

53:50

they should be in prison where they are. It's

53:54

fascinating to watch the

53:56

echo chamber, right? I

53:58

mean, Putin. says

54:00

in interviews, including with my own

54:02

colleague, Keir Simmons, that these are

54:05

political dissidents. He defends the insurrectionists.

54:07

Tucker Carlson takes up for them.

54:09

He gets the security footage that

54:11

was part of the Congressional Select

54:13

Committee probe that you were

54:16

on, that you helped plead. And now

54:18

Trump is calling the insurrectionists, many of

54:20

whom have pleaded guilty all but three,

54:22

have been convicted by juries of their

54:24

peers or judges for their crimes, crimes that

54:26

aren't in question. Many of them are on videotape. The

54:30

effort to rewrite what's true is something

54:32

that Trump seemed to foreshadow at the

54:34

beginning of his presidency when he told

54:36

his supporters, don't believe your eyes, don't

54:38

believe your ears, only believe me. How

54:40

can we have rule of law in

54:43

this country if that comes

54:45

to pass, if he's telling his supporters

54:47

that these are hostages, not insurrectionists? Well,

54:50

this is an individual, Mr. Trump, who

54:53

obviously does not believe in the rule of law,

54:56

as shown by his own activities that

54:58

caused the committee to refer him

55:01

for criminal prosecution, but also

55:03

defending the vicious assaults of

55:05

these people engaged in. I

55:10

guess I'm old fashioned, but I do think

55:12

that complying with the law is

55:15

something that we should expect of each of

55:17

us. And certainly the

55:20

people who wanna occupy the

55:22

highest office in the land, someone

55:25

would say that the law should

55:27

be violated, actually it's

55:29

pretty shocking that that person would ask

55:32

us to trust him to be

55:34

the chief executive whose

55:37

charge is to see that the

55:39

laws are faithfully executed. And

55:42

if that just sneezes, excuse me, if that sneeze

55:44

comes out, the leaves are starting to bloom in

55:46

New York City. Congressman, I

55:48

wanna ask you what it's like to have

55:50

put this entire body of evidence before the

55:53

country through the work of the January 6th

55:55

select committee and watch

55:58

that person then become the nominee. Republican

56:00

Party watched people like Mitch McConnell,

56:02

who at the end of that second

56:04

impeachment trial basically did what

56:06

the committee did, referred Trump criminally to DOJ

56:09

for prosecution for a role that he didn't

56:11

deny Trump had had in 1-6. What is

56:13

it like to watch all this Republicans fall

56:15

in line behind Trump's candidacy? You

56:18

know, it's pretty sad. Our country

56:21

is well served when we

56:23

have two vibrant political parties

56:25

who can present competing policy

56:28

agendas for the public to choose.

56:30

Not well served when one of those

56:33

parties throws away its principles and just

56:35

does whatever one man who says he

56:37

wants to be a dictator on day

56:40

one, whatever that man wants. It's really

56:42

pathetic to watch the implosion of

56:45

the Republican Party. It doesn't help

56:47

our country. Let me show

56:49

all of you what John Stewart, who is

56:52

really rip roaring out

56:54

of the gate since he's back in

56:56

the chair, had to say about this

56:59

plank of Trump's reelection campaign. Patriots

57:03

festooned in American flags, co-signing

57:05

dictatorship. Remember we the people?

57:07

You know there's more words

57:10

after that, right? Smaller

57:13

font, still binding.

57:15

Look, if you want

57:17

to love Trump, love

57:19

him. Go to the rallies, buy

57:22

the sneakers. You want to give him absolute

57:24

power? You want him to be the leader of

57:27

the Ubarales? You want him to have the

57:29

right of kings? You do you. But

57:32

stop framing it as

57:34

patriotism. This

57:37

and the president's State of the

57:39

Union address and Liz Cheney's tweet

57:41

made me want to ask you

57:43

this question. Is it time to

57:45

reclaim the mantle of patriotism for

57:48

people who actually believe in those

57:50

founding documents, the Constitution, the rule

57:52

of law, the things that are

57:55

supposed to bind us as citizens?

57:58

Absolutely. You can't be a patriotic

58:00

only when your side wins.

58:03

You can't be patriotic when you

58:06

use the American flag to attack

58:09

police officers on January 6th.

58:11

You can't be patriotic when you

58:13

say that criminals ought to

58:15

be let loose out of

58:18

their prison for the conviction

58:20

of assaulting officers. That's not

58:22

patriotism. You know, I'll

58:24

stand with the Constitution and my

58:26

adherence to it. I

58:28

just wish that the Republican nominee

58:31

had that same passion

58:33

for our Constitution and for

58:35

the rule of law. It's

58:38

not patriotic. It's not, it's

58:40

un-American actually. You know,

58:42

Charlie, let me bring you and Andrew

58:44

in on this. I mean, I think

58:46

because around this table we don't have

58:48

right-left conversations. We have democracy-autocracy conversations. And

58:50

so many people say to me privately,

58:53

you know, I never thought I'd see

58:55

the day when Judge Ludwig moved me

58:57

to tears or Liz Cheney's quotes for

58:59

ones that I retweeted all day long.

59:01

I mean, this sort

59:05

of bipartisan effort

59:07

to claw back our democracy before it

59:09

slips away is moving. But I worry

59:11

that it's too late. I mean, when

59:14

you hear things coming out of Trump's

59:16

supporters' mouths like the footage that Von

59:18

Hilliard rolls on. Yeah, we like our

59:20

strongman. Yeah, this is what we want.

59:22

Who needs a democracy? I worry

59:25

if this is all too little too late.

59:27

Do you have that worry? Well,

59:30

I worry about it, but I don't think that it

59:32

is too late. That's why we're going to have an

59:35

election. That's why we have a judicial process. But this

59:37

is not a drill. This is really real and it's

59:39

becoming, and the choices are very,

59:41

very stark. And I'm really glad that you led

59:43

with this. The president, I

59:45

mean, former presidents, promised that he

59:47

is going to free the rioters

59:50

from January 6. Now, Donald

59:52

Trump is a chronic liar, but I

59:54

actually believe him. He has said this

59:56

over and over and over again. He

59:58

intends to do this. this. And this

1:00:00

is something that he would be able

1:00:02

to do if he becomes president again, using

1:00:05

and abusing the pardon power. But I

1:00:07

think we need to freeze frame this

1:00:09

because and I think that he

1:00:11

and other Republicans need to be asked about

1:00:13

this over and over again. Are you saying

1:00:15

that if Donald Trump becomes president of the

1:00:17

United States that he would support him using

1:00:20

that power to wipe away

1:00:22

the legal accountability for people

1:00:25

convicted of seditious conspiracy, people

1:00:27

who attacked police officers? And

1:00:29

the congresswoman said, no, show

1:00:31

the pictures of the of the

1:00:34

of the insurrectionist who beat police

1:00:36

officers with American flags, who used

1:00:38

who used a bear spray and

1:00:41

pepper spray on officers who tase

1:00:43

the officers who caused them to

1:00:45

have heart attacks and strokes. People

1:00:48

died to that day. Are

1:00:50

you going to release them?

1:00:52

Are you going to embrace

1:00:55

them? And then turn this

1:00:57

issue of patriotism around, as

1:00:59

well as the issue of law and order. Do you

1:01:01

back the blue? Do you back the

1:01:04

law and order? Do you believe in

1:01:06

these constitutional values? Because this is one

1:01:08

of the things that might get lost

1:01:10

in this fire hose of

1:01:13

outrage that we get from Donald Trump all the

1:01:15

time. But he intends to

1:01:17

do this. I think he's absolutely serious

1:01:19

about it. He has said this over

1:01:21

and over and over again. So I

1:01:24

think this is one of those moments

1:01:26

where you need to take him at

1:01:28

his word that he's going to take

1:01:30

people who brutally attacked cops, who yell

1:01:33

things like, take Michael Fanon's gun and

1:01:35

kill him with it. He's going to

1:01:37

open up the jail house door, and

1:01:39

he is going to embrace them as

1:01:42

patriots. We need to take back the word

1:01:44

patriot. And we need to take back the

1:01:46

whole idea of law and order and

1:01:48

accountability. And so

1:01:52

I totally agree, he's he's going to do

1:01:54

it. And in some ways, that's

1:01:57

not even a story. So first, we know he's going to

1:01:59

do it. because look at what he did

1:02:01

when he was president. He was

1:02:03

surrounded by people who were convicted of crimes

1:02:05

and he pardoned them. So Manafort, Stone, Flynn,

1:02:07

all the people that

1:02:10

we were prosecuting in connection with the Mueller team.

1:02:12

It's not like he sits there and says, I

1:02:15

don't know how to use the pardon power. And

1:02:17

then yes, he is saying this, but actually the

1:02:19

story is that he's saying it. Well,

1:02:22

it's not the story of like, gee, I wonder

1:02:24

if maybe he won't do it. And people thinking,

1:02:26

well, if he won't do it, maybe we're just

1:02:28

overstating it. It's like he's saying it now.

1:02:30

If you wanna know what he's running

1:02:32

on, there is a law and order

1:02:34

party that used to be the Republican

1:02:36

party. And that is now the constellation

1:02:38

of Democrats and the Republicans who actually

1:02:41

still believe in a

1:02:44

civilized society. And if

1:02:46

you think that this, it's just using

1:02:48

the pardon power with respect to people

1:02:50

who were afforded due process where they

1:02:52

either had to plead guilty as of

1:02:54

his choice or a jury found them

1:02:56

guilty. So it's not like they were

1:02:58

just, this isn't the Biden administration saying

1:03:00

you go to jail. I mean, they were afforded

1:03:02

all of the rights of a criminal defendant. He's

1:03:06

going to do that over and over again. He

1:03:08

has already, when he was president saying, you can go

1:03:10

out and commit a crime and I don't worry, I'll

1:03:12

pardon you for it. So- To

1:03:14

border agent. Exactly. So this

1:03:16

idea that it's gonna stop just at

1:03:19

the January 6th level is

1:03:21

I think fanciful. It's going to be,

1:03:23

I mean, that pardon power

1:03:25

is a flaw in the constitution because

1:03:28

no one thought we would descend to this point

1:03:30

where it can be used to basically be a

1:03:32

get out of jail free card. There really is

1:03:34

no rule of law in the way

1:03:36

that a corrupt president could use

1:03:39

it. And the final irony is

1:03:41

for the congresswoman to be surrounded

1:03:43

with so many colleagues who

1:03:46

were protected by the Capitol police on

1:03:48

that day who aren't standing with them.

1:03:51

I mean, that's the part that is

1:03:54

just again, the ingratitude of

1:03:57

what they were standing for and that they-

1:04:00

don't see that their own interest in

1:04:03

what America should stand for is not

1:04:06

something that overtakes their own sort of

1:04:08

political aspirations. What is

1:04:10

that like, Congresswoman? I mean I have had

1:04:13

privilege of interviewing Michael Fanon and Harry down

1:04:15

on multiple occasions and I know they kind

1:04:18

of, I don't know, keep their head

1:04:20

down and do their job, but what is that like

1:04:22

for you to see those men and

1:04:25

women who literally put their bodies

1:04:28

between our country and

1:04:30

Trump supporters who were trying to take it

1:04:33

over that day on the instruction

1:04:35

and order of a corrupt

1:04:37

president threatening the life

1:04:39

of his own vice president. What is it

1:04:41

like to see them now protect

1:04:44

the building of all these people who

1:04:46

don't recognize or appreciate or even acknowledge

1:04:48

the reality of their heroics that day?

1:04:50

We know it's depressing really.

1:04:53

You think about Brian

1:04:56

Sicknick, he died, you

1:04:58

know, talking to his mother on

1:05:00

the anniversary of the day of

1:05:02

his death, you know,

1:05:04

these are hostages, the people

1:05:06

who killed her son, the

1:05:08

officers whose bravery

1:05:10

has been diminished by a few

1:05:13

of my colleagues. They

1:05:15

still stand and protect us, much

1:05:17

to their credit, but it

1:05:20

is embarrassing to serve with

1:05:22

members who don't honor them, respect

1:05:25

them, and acknowledge what they did

1:05:27

to save our lives. Charlie,

1:05:30

what do you think of a political effort in

1:05:32

this area looks like, a really,

1:05:34

really public effort to sort

1:05:37

of erode law enforcement's traditional

1:05:39

political alignment with Republicans? Well

1:05:44

I think this is a real vulnerability

1:05:46

for Republicans. I mean Republicans are willing

1:05:48

to fall in the line behind Donald

1:05:50

Trump on this and on other issues,

1:05:52

but if the issue is taken to

1:05:54

them, do you support freeing these individuals?

1:05:57

I mean this is going to be

1:05:59

very difficult. Look, I mean, we've

1:06:01

seen the almost infinite capacity of Republicans

1:06:03

to rationalize anything. So don't misunderstand me.

1:06:07

But this is one of the moments where we

1:06:09

saw this with our own eyes. We know what

1:06:11

happened. Put the testimony

1:06:13

of Harry Dunn and Michael Fanone up against

1:06:16

what the Republican Party nominee is

1:06:19

saying that they're going to do. So

1:06:21

this is one of those where I think

1:06:23

there are pictures, there's video, it is graphic,

1:06:27

and it is a real vulnerability if

1:06:29

Democrats are willing to prosecute this case, which I

1:06:32

think that they will be. And

1:06:34

if they won't, then other third party groups need to

1:06:36

do it on their behalf. Can

1:06:38

you just real quick, can you remember any other time

1:06:40

when the rule of law was essential to the political

1:06:42

conversation? I

1:06:45

think maybe Joe McCarthy was

1:06:48

an example. I remember talking to my parents about it

1:06:50

and saying, you know, when you compare the two, what

1:06:52

do you think? And

1:06:55

the problem is that as you think about

1:06:58

it now, where you have somebody who is

1:07:00

president, now somebody who's running for president with

1:07:02

so much power, it is a scarier time.

1:07:05

I'd say the only saving grace

1:07:07

is you and people

1:07:09

like you. It's that the press

1:07:12

now still has that role. That's

1:07:15

why there's so much attack on the press. But

1:07:17

that is a difference. We have a

1:07:20

platform if we choose to use it. It's kind

1:07:22

of alarming that more don't. But thank you both

1:07:24

for your kind words about what we try to

1:07:26

do here. Congressman Zillofgren and Andrew Weisman, thank you

1:07:28

both for being part of this conversation. Charlie will

1:07:30

be back later in this hour when we come

1:07:33

back. How President Joe Biden is putting democracy front

1:07:35

and center in this election. Our

1:07:37

series, American Autocracy, It Could

1:07:39

Happen Here, continues with a

1:07:41

key member of the President's

1:07:43

administration. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg

1:07:45

will be our guest right here in

1:07:47

studio after a short break. And

1:07:50

later in the broadcast, a brand new

1:07:52

$50 million ad campaign featuring Republicans, former

1:07:54

Trump voters, who say no more. They

1:07:57

can no longer support him for 2020.

1:08:00

We'll show you why. We'll show you

1:08:02

what they're saying in their own words

1:08:04

explaining why and how they moved on

1:08:06

from the disgraced ex-president and why the

1:08:09

campaign could prove devastating to his election

1:08:11

prospects. deadline White House continues after a

1:08:13

quick break. Don't go anywhere today. Shopify

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All lower case,

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shopify.com/podcast free, shopify.com/podcast

1:09:17

free. I

1:09:24

ask all of you without regard to party to

1:09:27

join together and defend democracy. Remember

1:09:30

your oath of office of defending us

1:09:32

all threats, foreign and domestic. Respect.

1:09:36

Respect. Pay your

1:09:38

fair elections. Restore trust in our institutions.

1:09:41

And make clear political violence has

1:09:43

absolutely no place, no place in

1:09:46

America, zero place. It's not

1:09:48

hyperbole to suggest history

1:09:50

is watching or watching.

1:09:54

Your children and grandchildren will read about this day

1:09:56

what we do. History

1:09:58

is watching and is... and was

1:10:00

a theme that President Joe Biden came back to

1:10:02

again and again and again in last week's

1:10:04

State of the Union address. A

1:10:06

State of the Union that in many ways

1:10:08

is a fork in the road for our

1:10:10

great nation as Americans now face a choice over

1:10:13

which path we're going to take, whether

1:10:15

to, as President Joe Biden put it

1:10:17

in his speech, defend democracy or

1:10:21

choose curtain number two, a very different

1:10:23

path, one that could see our great

1:10:25

nation backflip into autocracy. The

1:10:28

former Principal Deputy Director of National

1:10:30

Intelligence Sue Gordon reminded us recently,

1:10:34

300 years for our democracy is not a

1:10:36

guarantee. It is not promised.

1:10:38

There's no contract on that. It

1:10:41

is this existential choice that our nation

1:10:43

faces that we've been examining in our

1:10:45

new series, American Autocracy. It could happen

1:10:47

here. And it's something that feels

1:10:50

more urgent with each passing day. With

1:10:52

Putin on the march and emboldened on

1:10:54

the world stage, Viktor Orban getting a

1:10:57

hero's welcome here in the US, especially

1:10:59

at Mar-a-Lago, getting the specter of Hitler

1:11:01

back in the news thanks to Trump's

1:11:03

praise of him. All

1:11:06

the American people meet this historic moment.

1:11:09

In the words of President Joe Biden again, history

1:11:11

is watching. Joining us

1:11:14

at the table, US Secretary of Transportation

1:11:16

member of President Joe Biden's cabinet, Pete

1:11:18

Buttigieg. So I said this behind your back. I'll

1:11:21

say it to your face. I'm

1:11:23

not just the administration's most skilled

1:11:25

communicator, but one of the most

1:11:28

skilled communicators in our politics. And

1:11:30

I wonder how you

1:11:32

even bite at this mega

1:11:34

massive huge idea of democracy

1:11:36

and the very real universal

1:11:39

concern that the roads we drive

1:11:41

our kids on and the

1:11:44

roads that our school buses travel on

1:11:46

without any seatbelts on are safe and

1:11:48

secure. How do you

1:11:50

do what the president wants us to do and

1:11:52

meet this moment while also talking to people where

1:11:54

they are, which is worried about the bills,

1:11:57

worried about the roads, worried about the schools?

1:12:00

really appreciate about serving under President

1:12:02

Biden's leadership is I think this

1:12:04

whole administration revolves around an understanding

1:12:06

about the relationship between these high-minded,

1:12:08

almost cosmic things that we talk

1:12:10

about, like the durability of our

1:12:13

democracy, and incredibly everyday things

1:12:15

like filling in holes in the road

1:12:17

or making sure there's clean, safe water

1:12:19

coming out of our pipes. And I

1:12:22

think that's not an accident. One of

1:12:24

the tests for any model of government

1:12:27

is its capacity to deliver on

1:12:29

the basics. And I don't

1:12:32

think it's an accident that, for

1:12:34

example, the last time

1:12:36

it was really kind of acceptable

1:12:39

or even fashionable in some circles of

1:12:41

American society to talk approvingly about fascism,

1:12:43

which is in the 20s

1:12:45

and the 30s. One of the

1:12:47

excuses they would make for people like

1:12:50

Mussolini, dictators abroad, is, well, he

1:12:52

makes the trains run on time. By the way, that wasn't true.

1:12:54

We could talk about that. It's never true because we

1:12:56

don't care about the people taking the train. But

1:12:59

they say that. The narrative is

1:13:01

that these more autocratic systems are

1:13:04

somehow better able to deliver on

1:13:06

the basics. The

1:13:08

president often mentions that almost any time I'm

1:13:10

in the room with him, especially early on

1:13:12

when we were getting the infrastructure building, any

1:13:15

time infrastructure came up, one

1:13:17

of the first things he would immediately mention was

1:13:19

Xi Jinping and talk about how China was

1:13:22

seeking to create the impression

1:13:24

that their top-down command

1:13:27

and control system was better

1:13:29

able to deliver on things like

1:13:31

infrastructure than our messy democratic

1:13:33

system. And getting this infrastructure built past

1:13:36

would be a chance to prove them

1:13:38

wrong. And that's, I guess, that's my real answer

1:13:40

to your question. That in this moment, if we

1:13:42

can deliver on the basics, have better roads and

1:13:45

bridges, have better trains and transit

1:13:47

and airports and ports and the rest

1:13:49

of it, and a better

1:13:51

economy and a better everyday life, that's

1:13:53

part of how we validate the

1:13:55

idea. Yeah, because the truth

1:13:58

is, you know, demand democracy

1:14:00

and the American system didn't

1:14:02

win the ideological battle of

1:14:05

the 20th century against

1:14:07

the Soviet model just based on theoretical

1:14:09

arguments alone. We won because there were

1:14:11

far more people in the Soviet Union

1:14:13

who wished they were living in the

1:14:15

United States than the other way around.

1:14:18

And that really does come back to how

1:14:21

we deliver on those things that make everyday

1:14:23

life better or worse depending partly on

1:14:26

the condition and the functionality

1:14:28

of your federal government. And

1:14:30

this was Biden's bed all along, right? I mean,

1:14:32

it started with shots. And then it was formula

1:14:34

when that got screwed up by private industry. It's

1:14:37

why you can now get more kinds of formula

1:14:39

in the United States of America as anyone with

1:14:41

little kids knows. And

1:14:44

it is crystallized probably most clearly

1:14:46

in infrastructure. And Trump, when he

1:14:48

controlled every branch of government, coveted

1:14:50

an infrastructure bill all of his

1:14:52

own. He wanted to do it because even Trump

1:14:54

knew that you could cut a big fancy ribbon

1:14:56

and stand in front of a road and a

1:14:58

bridge and you could do it and he failed.

1:15:01

And I wonder how, you know, President Biden

1:15:03

invoked his predecessor 13 times in a State

1:15:06

of the Union address. I wonder how you

1:15:08

make this contrast clear that this is what's

1:15:10

on the line. That road, that

1:15:12

bridge, that Wi-Fi, you suddenly have those bars on the

1:15:14

top of your phone. You didn't have those

1:15:16

the last four years you have them now. Yeah,

1:15:19

I think that was a good example

1:15:21

of the contrast between bluster saying you're

1:15:24

going to deliver something infrastructure week again

1:15:26

and again and again with no results,

1:15:28

which is what we experienced in the

1:15:30

last administration. And actually

1:15:33

delivering, which this president did and this administration

1:15:35

did in our first year just this morning,

1:15:37

I was in Philadelphia at a

1:15:40

bridge, the Martin Luther King Bridge. I was at

1:15:42

that same bridge a couple of

1:15:44

years ago as we were just announcing the

1:15:46

beginning of this infrastructure program. Now I

1:15:48

was talking to the workers who are

1:15:50

in the middle of actually rehabilitating

1:15:52

that bridge. So that

1:15:54

difference between talk and action, between

1:15:57

bluster and results is very much

1:15:59

on in

1:16:02

what we have right now with this infrastructure package. And

1:16:04

I would say the how matters, not just the what,

1:16:06

but the how. So look at how it got done,

1:16:08

because there is this fiction out there that

1:16:11

the way to get things done, especially

1:16:13

infrastructure, is to have a strong man

1:16:15

come in barking orders and just command

1:16:17

and control, get it all done. The

1:16:20

Chinese way. The Chinese way. Or

1:16:23

the Orban way, or the pick your

1:16:25

dictator. Which in some way also rhymes

1:16:27

with the last administration's kind of style,

1:16:29

right? Except that didn't get anything done.

1:16:33

And the president in a very democratic way. By the way, a

1:16:36

democratic way that was messy. I

1:16:38

mean, we really worked at the president's

1:16:40

direction to get Republicans on board, and

1:16:42

many of them did. We

1:16:44

didn't do it by shoving it down anybody's throats. We

1:16:47

got Republicans to come across the aisle. Not all of

1:16:49

them, honestly, not even most of them, but many of

1:16:51

them came to work with

1:16:53

Democrats, work with me, work with the president,

1:16:55

and get this thing done. So our messy

1:16:58

democratic system did in fact deliver. That

1:17:00

I think is one of the best

1:17:02

answers we can have for this strong

1:17:04

man fantasy, that that's how you've actually

1:17:06

delivered results for people. Tim Snyder,

1:17:08

who wrote On Tyranny and is now sort

1:17:12

of a celebrity of this moment, but also

1:17:14

super knowledgeable, talked about the problem with the

1:17:16

strong man myth is that the people who

1:17:18

can be persuaded to want the strong man

1:17:20

are never the people that the strong man

1:17:23

cares about. That once they're elected, they only

1:17:25

care about other strong men. And I wonder

1:17:27

if you're sort of out in the country

1:17:29

and you seem to value having some of

1:17:32

these conversations on Fox News where some

1:17:34

of the people watching, maybe most didn't

1:17:36

vote for your boss. Why

1:17:38

is it so important to try to reach

1:17:41

people who are already persuaded

1:17:43

that a strong man isn't such a bad thing?

1:17:45

Well, again, I think it's the difference between

1:17:47

show and tell. So we're

1:17:49

trying to show results and

1:17:52

whether I'm appearing somewhere on TV or

1:17:54

whether we're out on the road. We're connecting

1:17:56

that through in places that, yes, have forgotten,

1:17:59

not only. Don't believe that a president of

1:18:01

a certain party might care about them, but just don't

1:18:03

believe that Washington cares about them at all. You

1:18:05

know, I've been to almost every state

1:18:08

just since getting this job. And think

1:18:10

about places like Chamberlain, South

1:18:13

Dakota, this small town, maybe 2,500 people. But

1:18:16

big enough, it actually has an airport. And that

1:18:18

airport really matters because they use it for air

1:18:21

ambulance missions to fly people to the nearest hospital,

1:18:23

which is a very long drive away. And

1:18:26

their general aviation terminal is a

1:18:28

manufactured home. It's basically a double-eyed,

1:18:30

they've made it work. For

1:18:33

years and years, they've been wanting to have an actual

1:18:35

building, a modest request, but a very important one that

1:18:37

they didn't have the funding to get done. We brought

1:18:39

the funding to do that, out of

1:18:41

the very same program that is delivering

1:18:43

funding to fix the notorious

1:18:45

Horseshoe roadway at LAX that

1:18:48

can really tie you up when you're getting dropped

1:18:50

off there. And- Or if you

1:18:52

have to go around. Yeah. And you

1:18:54

know, when we were there, I mean,

1:18:56

talking to these very practical-minded local and

1:18:59

county officials who, I didn't

1:19:01

ask what party they were from, didn't come up.

1:19:03

I'm guessing maybe a different party than mine. It

1:19:05

didn't matter, but the emotion and the passion that

1:19:07

they had around this project. And the fact that

1:19:09

we were finally getting it done was everything. So

1:19:11

when I'm in a place like that, or

1:19:15

Port Arthur in Texas, or Tell City,

1:19:17

Indiana, these places that have been overlooked

1:19:20

again and again and again, it's

1:19:23

another chance to show versus

1:19:25

tell, not just to offer

1:19:27

them resentment or talk a big game,

1:19:29

but to actually get stuff done and have the

1:19:31

receipts, literally. And what is the barrier

1:19:35

to entry? I mean, do you walk

1:19:37

up to someone in a MAGA hat

1:19:39

and say, hey, I know in

1:19:41

a lot of those rural communities, it's the trauma center

1:19:43

that is, if you have to

1:19:45

drive, you die. And so you need those rural

1:19:47

air facilities. Yeah, I mean, this is

1:19:49

one of the many reasons I love

1:19:52

the transportation portfolio, because as has famously

1:19:54

been said, there's no

1:19:56

Democratic bridges or Republican roads. So you can talk

1:19:58

to somebody who maybe isn't ready. to listen to you

1:20:00

on a lot of other issues, but absolutely

1:20:02

gets why we need to get the road

1:20:04

fixed or get this bridge done. And

1:20:07

now that being said, they may not automatically

1:20:09

be inclined to give President Biden credit, especially

1:20:11

because the way our funding works is a

1:20:14

lot of it passes through states. Some

1:20:16

of those states have governors who aren't going to

1:20:18

go out of their way to give President Biden

1:20:20

credit or explain how they got all the funding

1:20:22

that that governor is then deploying to fix the

1:20:24

roads and bridges. But that's part of why we're

1:20:26

getting out there. And you're gonna see my cabinet

1:20:28

colleagues, administration colleagues, myself, leaders, the

1:20:31

president and vice president out there, probably

1:20:33

to highlight the communities and the people doing the work. But

1:20:36

also I think it's fair and proper that

1:20:40

the president get out there and take credit for things

1:20:42

that wouldn't have happened without him. And

1:20:45

just ask the Republican lawmakers who want

1:20:48

to take credit who didn't vote for the bill. And

1:20:50

they're armenic. Yeah, but I think that's the best proof that

1:20:52

it was a good deal and a good policy. That's

1:20:54

how you know these projects are the right thing to do.

1:20:56

Can I keep you over a break? I have a

1:20:58

few more questions for you. All right, we will be back

1:21:00

with Secretary Buttigieg on the other side of a very

1:21:02

short break. Stay with us. We

1:21:10

are back with the Secretary of Transportation, Pete Buttigieg.

1:21:12

We called you Mayor Pete on the show for

1:21:14

a long time. But I think it's some of

1:21:16

that. I mean, when you're mayor, you

1:21:18

are literally touching people people. And you

1:21:21

obviously haven't lost that. I

1:21:23

wanna ask you what

1:21:25

it's like and again, we

1:21:27

talked about going on Fox News. But when

1:21:30

you're out in the country and you're announcing

1:21:32

a project and you're putting people to work,

1:21:34

you're touching people who literally believe that Joe

1:21:36

Biden isn't the legitimate president. I mean, some

1:21:38

of the exit polling that Steve Kornacki highlighted

1:21:40

on Super Tuesday was shocking,

1:21:42

frankly, that 60, 30,

1:21:46

60% of Republicans in some counties don't believe

1:21:48

Joe Biden is legitimate. How do

1:21:50

you take that on? And

1:21:53

obviously, I said to you before you came on,

1:21:55

it was part of the last Republican administration to

1:21:58

honor the Hatch Act. I know there's... things

1:22:00

about a campaign, you can't say, but this is about

1:22:02

the very legitimacy of the administration in which you serve.

1:22:04

How do you deal with that? How do you make

1:22:07

that better? Yeah, I think, like

1:22:09

you said, there's a whole set of things that are

1:22:11

on the campaign side that I won't talk about. But

1:22:13

on the official side, I think the best way to

1:22:15

earn legitimacy is to keep delivering results. And I know

1:22:17

we're not automatically getting a ton of credit for every

1:22:20

good thing that happens, but that shows you how long

1:22:24

a period of digging it is taken to get

1:22:26

into the hole we're in as a country when

1:22:28

it comes to public- Like literally and figuratively. Yeah,

1:22:30

I mean, look, we're, I guess the literal digging

1:22:32

is hopefully going to get us out of the

1:22:35

figurative digging where, you know, we've had 30 or

1:22:37

40 years of underinvestment. And

1:22:40

honestly, if I think about my generation, you

1:22:43

know, my first election I could vote in

1:22:45

was 2000. And between about

1:22:47

2000 and about 2020, with

1:22:51

the shining exception of the

1:22:53

Affordable Care Act, Obamacare, most

1:22:56

of what my generation witnessed from

1:22:58

Washington consisted of policy

1:23:00

failure and war and war. Yeah, I

1:23:02

mean, that was part of the policy failure. And

1:23:05

you don't just bounce back from that in

1:23:07

a season or a year or a term.

1:23:09

And to that, the fact that we're still

1:23:11

coming through a generational

1:23:13

trauma in the form of COVID.

1:23:16

I know things feel back to normal.

1:23:18

Blessedly, they are much more normal than

1:23:20

they were certainly when President Biden got

1:23:22

here. But you know, just

1:23:24

shake off a society shutting down and a million

1:23:26

people dying in the space of a year or

1:23:28

two or three that messes with our heads in

1:23:30

all kinds of ways. And by the way, it's

1:23:32

often in the wake of a

1:23:35

generational trauma, whether it's something

1:23:37

like COVID,

1:23:39

or whether it's something like the Great

1:23:41

Depression, or 9 11,

1:23:43

or 9 11, or World War One, that

1:23:45

you enter into a season where freedoms

1:23:47

are on the line and democracy becomes

1:23:49

more rickety. And people begin flirting with

1:23:52

autocratic rhetoric in a way that they

1:23:54

might not have at a time when

1:23:56

they felt just more comfortable, secure and

1:23:58

hadn't been shaken. by some historical event

1:24:01

like that. I mean, your generation

1:24:03

is, I mean, our generation, you're

1:24:05

younger than me, but to

1:24:07

see rights called into question, I mean, this

1:24:09

is the political earthquake that is doves, but

1:24:12

Clarence Thomas made very clear that marriage equality

1:24:14

is back on the line, back up for

1:24:16

discussion, back in danger again. Republican

1:24:18

sort of retrenchment seems to be

1:24:21

about xenophobia and fear of migrants

1:24:24

and immigrants. How do you, as

1:24:26

a public official and a public figure, how

1:24:29

do you deal with this moment that feels very much

1:24:31

like regression? I

1:24:34

think that's, first of all, we have to

1:24:36

name it. We have to recognize that it

1:24:38

turns out it is far from automatic, that

1:24:40

rights and freedoms will expand. And you could

1:24:42

be forgiven for thinking it was automatic, because

1:24:45

again, think about my generation for all the frustrations

1:24:47

we had on the policy front, when it came

1:24:49

to basic freedoms. Now we grew

1:24:51

up learning about American history and how even

1:24:53

if it was not a straight line, as

1:24:55

a general rule, each generation had more rights

1:24:58

and freedoms than the generation before, from the

1:25:00

18th century all the way through the 20th.

1:25:03

And I always felt that things

1:25:05

like marriage equality were an example of that. They

1:25:08

were validation, they are validation, that

1:25:10

my generation has freedoms that one or

1:25:12

two generations before couldn't have dreamed of.

1:25:14

And yet, as we saw with the

1:25:16

Dodds decision, with access to abortion and

1:25:19

birth control and even IDF, now

1:25:22

being withdrawn, it turns

1:25:24

out that there's a very real

1:25:26

possibility that the generations now living

1:25:29

could wind up being the first in America

1:25:32

to have fewer rights and freedoms than

1:25:34

they were born with. Now, we

1:25:36

can't let that happen. And the agenda that the

1:25:39

president laid out in the State of the Union

1:25:41

includes expanding rights and freedoms. And I think it's

1:25:43

meaningful that even the, at least

1:25:45

in their rhetoric, those who

1:25:47

I very much disagree with politically feel the need

1:25:49

to talk about freedom, because that gives us actually

1:25:52

a shared vocabulary, as divided as we are, to

1:25:55

really come back to what matters most. I

1:25:57

think freedom is on the line. Obviously, women's

1:25:59

freedom. to make their own decisions about their own health and

1:26:01

their own bodies is on the line right now. The

1:26:04

freedom of families like mine to exist right

1:26:06

now is on the line. I think part

1:26:09

of why we see a renewed push in

1:26:11

this anti-LGBTQ legislation going through the states is

1:26:14

very much a situation of freedom being on

1:26:16

the line. And you have youth in these

1:26:18

states who are different.

1:26:22

And for as long as there have been people who

1:26:24

are different, there have been

1:26:26

government officials demanding that they

1:26:28

conform and be like everybody else. And

1:26:31

what's happening now in these places is

1:26:33

of a piece with that long, long

1:26:35

pattern. And the question will be what

1:26:37

happens next? But it's not for nothing

1:26:39

that some of these same political

1:26:41

elected figures are now in the business

1:26:43

of banning books. And

1:26:45

if you were involved in banning books, you

1:26:48

are not involved in expanding

1:26:50

freedom. It's just not possible

1:26:52

to be both. Are you hopeful? Actually,

1:26:55

I am. I mean, first of all, how

1:26:58

do we lay all that out, how? Well, like you, I've become

1:27:00

a parent rather recently. And

1:27:05

that means you don't have a choice, right? Totally, yes.

1:27:08

You just literally don't have a choice to not

1:27:10

be hopeful. You can't give up because so much,

1:27:12

I used to talk about this in terms of

1:27:14

my own generation in the game. Now I think

1:27:16

about it in terms of our two and a

1:27:18

half year old twins and their stake in the

1:27:21

game. Another thing, by the way, it's

1:27:23

not just at that aspirational level, but also the

1:27:25

stuff I see happening across the country makes

1:27:28

me hopeful, the people I talk to. Even before we get the

1:27:30

projects finished, we're already talking to people

1:27:32

who are benefiting from the work that we do. I was

1:27:35

just in the Pacific Northwest, the

1:27:38

I-5 bridge, this monster

1:27:40

infrastructure project, they just couldn't get done

1:27:42

because it's so complicated, so expensive. We're

1:27:44

bringing $600 million to help

1:27:46

get this done. It's 107 years old, needs to

1:27:48

be fixed, needs to be replaced. And I got

1:27:50

to sit down with people in the building trades,

1:27:53

including apprentices who were very new at this, but

1:27:56

they were talking about how this was changing their lives.

1:27:59

And some of the work workers I met represented

1:28:01

some of the groups who have really

1:28:03

been on the outs of the policy

1:28:05

decisions and priorities of the past. A working

1:28:07

mom who up until now had to travel

1:28:10

four hours to get to a work site

1:28:13

and is wondering if she'll ever get to see

1:28:15

her kids. A returning citizen who is more than

1:28:17

anything focused on how he can be a good

1:28:19

example to his nephew. A

1:28:22

marine back from Iraq and Syria who said

1:28:24

literally that finding that union and the standards

1:28:26

that were expected of him and the purpose

1:28:28

that it gave him was the reason

1:28:31

he's not a statistic. So

1:28:33

the kinds of things that can be achieved for

1:28:35

what I know seems like very... Wonky. ...work

1:28:38

a day, yeah, wonky, pedestrian, nuts and

1:28:40

bolts stuff like fixing roads

1:28:42

and building bridges is I

1:28:44

think how we build those metaphorical bridges that

1:28:47

make our social fabric stronger too and I'm

1:28:49

very hopeful about what we can do but

1:28:51

under no illusions about how much work it's

1:28:53

going to take. We

1:28:55

are very grateful to get to talk to you. I

1:28:58

hope this conversation is to be continued. You can always

1:29:00

make a new parent cry about

1:29:02

the future but I'm glad to hear that

1:29:04

you're hopeful. I mean you're out there

1:29:07

and I'm grateful to you for bringing some of that into our

1:29:09

studio. Thank you very much for being here. Thank you. Thank

1:29:12

you. When we come back our group

1:29:14

of never Trump Republicans is using former

1:29:16

Trump voters in their own words to

1:29:18

say they can't and won't support the

1:29:21

disgraced president any longer. That's it. He's

1:29:24

going to be a dictator on day one.

1:29:27

He's going to be a dictator period. I

1:29:29

voted Republican straight across the board my entire

1:29:31

life until I saw Trump

1:29:33

in his role in January 6th. I

1:29:36

can't support a person like that. For

1:29:43

the first time in over 50 years

1:29:45

of voting in presidential elections

1:29:48

I will not vote Republican.

1:29:50

And I am a two-time Trump voter. Donald

1:29:53

Trump has shown that he has no regard

1:29:55

for the laws of this country. Biden may

1:29:57

not have all of the policies that I

1:29:59

agree with. with, but I know that

1:30:02

democracy will be saved under Biden.

1:30:05

I voted for Trump in the

1:30:07

past elections. I cannot

1:30:09

do it now. Trump is a gutless

1:30:11

coward who would

1:30:13

last five minutes in a combat zone.

1:30:16

His character does not suit the presidency.

1:30:18

I will no longer be voting for

1:30:20

President Trump. I do think Trump wants

1:30:22

to act like a dictator. Wow.

1:30:25

That's just a sample of a powerful

1:30:27

new $50 million ad campaign by Republican

1:30:30

voters against Trump. The group's

1:30:33

website already features 100 homemade

1:30:35

testimonials, all from former

1:30:37

supporters, people who voted for the

1:30:39

disgraced ex-president who backed him in

1:30:41

past election or elections, plural, about

1:30:44

why they will never do it again.

1:30:46

The group's founder, Sarah Longwell, tells the

1:30:48

New York Times that the effort has

1:30:50

been far more successful at cleaving Trump

1:30:52

voters away from him than traditional attack

1:30:54

ads that contrast Trump with Biden. Quote,

1:30:57

it is really important to understand you

1:30:59

were not building a pro Joe Biden

1:31:01

coalition, as Longwell said. You were building

1:31:03

an anti-Trump coalition. Joining our conversation, host

1:31:06

of the on-brand podcast, Donny Deutsch, Charlie's

1:31:08

back with us. I mean, Donny, it

1:31:11

may be a narrower mission, but it may have

1:31:13

the most chance of success. I think

1:31:15

it's a great campaign. You know, it's one of the oldest

1:31:17

forms of advertising testimonials. And there's a

1:31:19

term in advertising called permission to believe. If

1:31:21

you've got to give people permission that it's

1:31:23

okay to lead the ship, you know, there's

1:31:25

something emotional going on. If they voted for

1:31:27

him, letting go of him and let it, whether

1:31:29

you did in 2020 or whether you're going to

1:31:32

do it now. And you're, if you're sitting

1:31:34

at home and you're one of those independent voters

1:31:36

or not, or somebody that voted for him or,

1:31:38

or is on the fence, it's,

1:31:40

there's this community saying it's okay. We're

1:31:43

going to give you permission to leave the

1:31:45

ship. I actually think it's really effective. So

1:31:47

I had a gentleman on who

1:31:49

had voted for Trump twice and

1:31:51

read Liz Cheney's book and, and

1:31:53

then was incentivized to read the

1:31:55

January 6th committee and said

1:31:58

sort of the same thing. He said, he said, that he won't

1:32:00

vote for Trump again. And I wonder

1:32:02

how we sort of hold space for these people.

1:32:04

They're not wearing Biden t-shirts, but they will never

1:32:06

vote for Trump again. They're important. You

1:32:09

know, the secretary, Buttigieg, was just on

1:32:11

talking about all of Biden's accomplishments, and they're great.

1:32:14

This election, though, is going to be, and I've said

1:32:16

this many times on the show, about

1:32:18

painting the images, painting the dots of what

1:32:20

you do in your series, autocracy of what

1:32:22

it would look like. You know, people have

1:32:24

got to start asking that question. Do you

1:32:27

think Trump would, do you think

1:32:29

Trump would take $10 billion from Putin to

1:32:31

let him invade Poland? Yes. Do

1:32:33

you think Trump would create a

1:32:36

registry of some group if

1:32:38

it was in his best interest to keep office forever? Yes.

1:32:42

We need to start asking these questions. Do you

1:32:44

think he would use the military and sit them

1:32:46

on protesters if he didn't agree with the protest?

1:32:49

People are saying dictatorship, and people are saying

1:32:51

autocracy, and people are saying lack of freedoms.

1:32:53

We have to start putting strokes inside

1:32:56

those lines to show people what it looks like,

1:32:58

and people like that will be moved. Yeah,

1:33:00

and I mean, Charlie, you know who's doing a

1:33:02

lot of that for us, all that work that

1:33:04

Donnie just articulated? Trump. Trump

1:33:07

is telling us what he'll do. Trump is telling us

1:33:09

that he believes he can use CLT and Zikz to

1:33:11

target his enemies. Trump is telling us he will take

1:33:13

this network specifically off the air. Trump on Saturday called

1:33:15

MSN. Trump is laying it all out

1:33:17

there. 16 was

1:33:19

sort of the era of the brilliant

1:33:21

investigative journalist. 2024 is the

1:33:24

era of Trump letting it all hang out. Well,

1:33:27

exactly, and that's why I think this campaign is

1:33:29

excellent. I hope they raise all the money, I

1:33:31

hope they spend all the money in places like

1:33:33

Wisconsin, because these voters are in play here. They

1:33:36

might not be on the radar screen all the

1:33:38

time, but there is a sliver

1:33:40

of voters, and you've seen them disaffected in the

1:33:42

primary, who, again,

1:33:44

they're not gonna become Democrats, and they're

1:33:47

not gonna necessarily vote for Joe Biden,

1:33:49

but they have broken away from Donald

1:33:51

Trump. And just look at the numbers.

1:33:53

Here in Wisconsin, if all

1:33:56

of the people who voted for Republicans up and down

1:33:59

the ticket for legislation... in Congress had

1:34:01

voted for Donald Trump, you would have won the state in 2024.

1:34:05

But there were tens of thousands who

1:34:07

said, no, I'm going to draw the

1:34:09

line there. So this is a crucial

1:34:11

segment of the electorate. And I want

1:34:13

to have a hard agreement here with

1:34:15

what Donnie said about the permission structure

1:34:17

that this creates, because our politics is

1:34:19

very tribal. It is that sense that

1:34:21

I am part of this group and

1:34:24

that binding together is more

1:34:26

important than any specific issue, any specific

1:34:28

data point. People want to be part

1:34:30

of it. And it's very difficult for

1:34:32

them to break away from the tribe,

1:34:34

their friends and their family. And so

1:34:36

when they see something like this, they

1:34:38

say, here's someone like me who

1:34:41

is willing to do that. Here is

1:34:43

someone who's speaking to my doubts. And

1:34:46

I think that combined that with so many

1:34:48

of the Republicans who've served in the White

1:34:50

House with Donald Trump, so this is at

1:34:52

the grassroots level, but the people who've been

1:34:54

on the cabinet or been his chief of

1:34:56

staff, who do a montage of

1:34:59

all of them saying, I know Donald Trump. I work

1:35:01

with Donald Trump. Please do not put him back in.

1:35:04

This is, I think, you know, might

1:35:06

break off just enough Republican voters to

1:35:08

be decisive and know them. To pick

1:35:10

up on Charlie's point, I've said this

1:35:12

on the show, the most effective campaign

1:35:14

would be that called, generally speaking, the

1:35:17

four generals, Millie, Mattis, McMaster, Kelly, two

1:35:19

camera saying, I can't let

1:35:21

this happen. You don't own this. Just

1:35:23

saying the stuff they've now said a ton different. Just

1:35:25

saying, you've got to go to the gut. This is

1:35:27

election. It's a gut election. We're not

1:35:30

going to do it with left brain. We're not going

1:35:32

to do it with listening attributes. You've got to hit

1:35:34

people on gut. I totally agree. And this conversation

1:35:36

is very much to be continued or something

1:35:38

about more. Donnie Deutsch, Charlie Fikes, thank you

1:35:40

so much for spending some time with us.

1:35:42

Another break for us. We'll be right back.

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