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0:32

everyone, happy Friday. It's 4 o'clock in

0:34

the East on a busy and important

0:36

day of breaking news, including a pair

0:38

of decisions by the United States Supreme

0:40

Court, one with massive implications

0:42

for the very ability of our

0:44

government to function, the other one

0:46

throwing a wrench in efforts to

0:49

hold the January 6th insurrectionist legally

0:51

accountable. Both of those rulings by

0:53

the nation's highest court, that court

0:55

by the way also now dominated

0:57

by a 6-3 right-wing supermajority, as

1:00

well as a much anticipated ruling

1:02

on whether Donald Trump is immune

1:04

from prosecution and accountability. That's expected

1:06

on Monday. All of

1:08

those underscoring the massive and

1:11

historic and tectonic unprecedented stakes

1:13

of the 2024 general

1:16

election. And that conversation on this

1:18

day after the first presidential debate

1:20

of this cycle also making news.

1:23

Donald Trump went largely unchallenged and

1:25

unchecked as he blustered and lied

1:27

for 90 minutes straight. The conversation

1:29

in many corners of the Democratic

1:31

coalition is about deep anxiety

1:33

bordering on a bit of panic and

1:35

lots of questions about what the Biden

1:38

campaign does to steady all that angst.

1:40

After an evening in which Trump's

1:43

torrent of lies last night and

1:45

virtually every topic raised by the

1:47

two moderators was largely overshadowed by

1:49

the performance from President Joe Biden.

1:51

Earlier today President Biden seeming

1:53

to understand that clearly in

1:55

his first extended remarks since

1:57

the debate a fired-up energetic

2:00

President Joe Biden addressed those concerns

2:02

in his own party head-on. Watch.

2:32

I know how to do this job. I

2:35

know how to get things done. I

2:39

know like the millions of Americans know when

2:41

you get knocked down you get back up. President

2:49

Joe Biden saying I know how to

2:51

tell the truth obviously meant to contrast

2:53

himself to the ex-president. The

2:55

ex-president's near nonstop flurry of lies.

2:57

It took reporter Daniel Dale nearly

3:00

three minutes to fact check Donald

3:02

Trump's debate performance last night. Here's

3:04

just some of that. What

3:07

stood out was the staggering number of false claims

3:10

from former President Trump. On first count, Aaron, I

3:12

counted at least 30 false

3:14

claims. He said some Democratic states allow

3:16

people to execute babies after birth. An

3:18

egregious lie that is illegal in every

3:21

state. He said everybody, even Democrats, wanted

3:23

Roe v. Wade overturned. Roe was supported

3:25

by two-thirds of Americans, even more Democrats.

3:27

He said every legal scholar wanted Roe

3:29

overturned, abortion returned to the states. Legal

3:31

scholars have told me directly this is

3:33

not true. He said the US currently

3:35

has the biggest budget deficit ever. Note that

3:38

happened under Trump in 2020. He

3:40

said the US currently has a record trade

3:42

deficit with China. That also happened under Trump

3:44

in 2018. He said Biden personally gets a

3:46

lot of money from China. Zero evidence of

3:49

this. He said there were no terror attacks

3:51

during his presidency. In fact, there were multiple

3:53

attacks. He said Iran didn't find Hamas Hezbollah,

3:55

other terror groups under his presidency. Iran, in

3:57

fact, did. He said Biden wants to quadruple...

4:00

people's taxes. That is pure fiction. He said

4:02

the U.S. has provided way more aid to

4:04

Ukraine than Europe had. It's actually the opposite.

4:06

He said the U.S. has provided about 200

4:08

billion. In Ukraine aid, it's closer to 110

4:10

billion. He said

4:12

18 or 19 million people have crossed the

4:14

border under Biden. That is millions too high.

4:16

He said many of these migrants are from

4:18

prisons or mental institutions. His own campaign cannot

4:20

corroborate this. He said Biden has only created

4:23

jobs for illegal immigrants. Total nonsense. He said

4:25

Nancy Pelosi turned down his offer of 10,000

4:27

National Guard troops on January 6th. There's no

4:29

evidence she even got such an offer. He

4:31

said Biden made up the idea he called

4:33

dead service members suckers and losers. Note the

4:35

Atlantic magazine reported that and then former Trump

4:38

Chief of Staff John Kelly corroborated it. So

4:42

that portrait of a serial

4:45

liar, a candidate uniquely unfit

4:47

for office was unfortunately and

4:49

tragically obscured in the

4:51

moment of last night's debate. It's

4:53

still unclear what if anything changes

4:55

after last night. One constant remains.

4:57

The country faces a very stark

4:59

choice between President Joe Biden and

5:01

an authoritarian movement led by a

5:03

candidate whose instincts are fundamentally those

5:06

of an autocrats. David Frum puts

5:08

it like this in the Atlantic.

5:10

Quote, against the threat of Trump,

5:12

Americans must save themselves. The

5:14

job of doing so cannot be delegated

5:16

to some charismatic savior. And anyway, that

5:18

charismatic savior has yet to present himself

5:21

or herself. Television always wants

5:23

to reduce active human beings to

5:25

passive viewers. The presidential debate

5:27

format has especially served this purpose.

5:30

Do I prefer the candidate in the

5:32

red tie or the blue one? This

5:34

most recent debate has taught the danger

5:36

of spectatorship. The job of saving democracy

5:38

from Trump will be done not by

5:41

an old man on a gaudy stage,

5:43

but by those who care that their

5:45

democracy be saved. Biden's evident frailties have

5:47

aggravated that job and made it more

5:49

difficult, but they have also clarified whose

5:51

job it is, not his, yours. That's

5:53

where we start today with some of

5:55

our most favorite experts and friends from

5:57

our RNC chairman co host of MSNBC's

5:59

The Weeknd. Michael Steele is here, plus

6:02

host of MSNBC's Politics Nation, the president

6:04

of the National Action Network, the Rev.

6:06

Sharpton is here. Also joining

6:08

us, Democratic strategist, president of Brilliant Corners

6:10

Research, MSNBC political analyst Cornell Belcher is

6:12

here, and the executive director of Republican

6:15

Voters Against Trump, the publisher of the

6:17

bulwark Sarah Longwell is here. Sarah Longwell,

6:19

you've been in front of the most

6:21

important pundits and

6:23

consumers of last night's debates, and

6:26

that's voters. Let's

6:28

put your hearing from them. Yeah,

6:31

so we talked to some of these so-called double

6:33

haters this morning, and these were actually Trump voters,

6:35

people who voted for him twice, but after January

6:37

6th, were basically out on him, and were looking

6:39

for reasons not to vote for him. And

6:42

look, they used words like

6:45

embarrassment and train

6:47

wreck, and everybody thought that the

6:50

debate was really terrible. What

6:53

was interesting to me was it

6:55

didn't really push anybody back into

6:57

Trump's column. What it did

6:59

was they all still believe Trump is a liar.

7:01

They still believe he's a con man. They

7:04

still believe he's a narcissist. These were all the things. It

7:06

was interesting to me actually to listen to

7:09

them because I think as I watched the

7:11

debate, I was a little concerned that Trump's

7:14

demeanor, which is not

7:16

the same as the big lunatic energy

7:18

you see from him often, that that

7:20

would lead voters to maybe say like,

7:23

oh, Trump seems more reasonable, but these

7:25

voters, they were clocking all the lies.

7:27

They understood that Donald Trump was not

7:29

telling the truth and that much of

7:31

the substance of his comments was

7:34

crazy. But

7:36

look, Biden's performance, they were also

7:38

just really thought was terrible.

7:40

They were concerned about his cognitive abilities, and

7:42

for the couple of voters in the group

7:44

who had really been leaning towards Biden because

7:47

they were so repulsed by Trump,

7:50

they were back on the fence. What

7:53

you heard from a lot of them that I think is, I don't

7:56

know, maybe the most depressing is how many of them

7:58

were thinking just about sitting it out. or

8:02

writing somebody in. They were much more

8:04

third party curious in this moment. I

8:06

don't know that this moment lasts forever, but

8:09

in this moment they were back to like

8:11

thinking about RFK. And

8:13

so, yeah, I think for people who

8:15

maybe didn't have high expectations of Joe

8:17

Biden to begin with, which I think

8:19

when you talk to the double haters,

8:21

they are already concerned about Joe Biden's

8:24

mental acuity. And so last night didn't

8:26

necessarily shock them, but

8:29

it didn't do anything to bring them into

8:31

Biden's column, which is what he needed to

8:33

do last night, right? He had to help

8:35

these double haters for whom their

8:38

hatred is really for Donald Trump, but they think

8:40

Joe Biden was too old. He

8:42

was needed to convince them that in fact, he was up

8:44

for the job. And I just don't think that's what got

8:47

done last night. You

8:49

know, Michael Steele, I love what Joe

8:51

Biden said today. I mean, he's speaking

8:53

directly to what Sarah's sort

8:55

of studied data driven analysis that he needed to

8:57

do. He said, I may not walk as well

8:59

as I used to. I may not debate as

9:01

well as I used to, but I'll always tell

9:03

you the truth. And he could go

9:05

on and on in that construction. I'll never steal

9:08

classified documents. I won't in a deposition, you know,

9:10

in the year 2024, say

9:12

that you can still grab women between the legs because

9:14

that's what famous people have done for a million years.

9:16

I mean, there may have just been

9:18

too much, right? Sometimes

9:21

there's such a volume of

9:23

atrocities in terms of what

9:25

Trump has said and done, that it's hard for

9:27

anyone that's ever gone up against him in the

9:29

Republican primary, going back to 2015, to focus. But

9:34

I wonder what you make of

9:36

where voters seem to be processing

9:38

last night's debate. Well,

9:42

you know, I think

9:45

they're kind of like, hmm, I don't know.

9:47

And I think Sarah's focus

9:50

groups and her analysis of this

9:53

is really put her fingers on that

9:55

piece of it. But

9:57

that piece is not, it's not

9:59

necessary. bad for

10:02

Joe Biden in terms of, and it's

10:04

really important to understand what Sarah said.

10:07

Those voters did not move back to Trump.

10:10

So those voters are still gettable. Those

10:13

voters are still persuadable. Those

10:15

voters, quite honestly, are still

10:18

looking for something to affirm

10:20

the decision to talk, to

10:23

move, and to act in a

10:25

way that says, yeah, I'll go

10:27

with Joe Biden. And

10:29

last night, everybody in this

10:32

moment knows was a cluster. It

10:35

did not help. It screwed

10:37

all kinds of stuff up. But

10:40

that's okay. That's okay.

10:42

You know why it's okay? Because I knew the man was 81 years

10:45

old. You knew that. How

10:47

do you know that? Because you renominated

10:49

him. And you renominated

10:51

a 78-year-old. So

10:54

this is where we are. So let's take that crap

10:56

off this table. Now the Democrats

10:58

need to figure out, okay, what do we do

11:00

last night? You put your finger last night

11:02

on Nicole or something. That's very important here. Own

11:06

this thing. Don't run away from

11:08

it. And it was very

11:10

refreshing to see Joe Biden today

11:12

come out and own it. I'm

11:15

81. I don't walk

11:17

as well as I used to. I

11:19

have a stutter and I mess up sentences.

11:23

But I'm not that guy, right?

11:26

As an 81-year-old, I don't want

11:28

to be a dictator. As an

11:30

81-year-old, I don't want to take

11:32

the federal government and deconstruct it

11:34

so that the things that you

11:36

rely on and need are no

11:38

longer done. And

11:40

I think the more they begin to

11:43

reframe this conversation, taking into account the

11:45

thing that they've been running away from,

11:47

that is his age, and

11:50

own that, the more you expose

11:52

Donald Trump for the charlatan, the

11:55

liar, the putrid piece of humanity

11:57

that he is. And

12:00

that's what they need to do for the rest of

12:03

this campaign. And stop

12:07

worrying and nervous-nelling

12:10

this conversation. Democrats

12:13

right now are their own worst enemy. Republicans

12:16

are just sitting back going, okay, we don't say

12:18

anything about the debate. Let them do

12:20

the talking, right? And

12:23

they're talking their guy out of the race. As

12:26

Joe Biden said, I'm picking myself up

12:29

and I'm back in this thing. Last night was

12:31

not good. And y'all

12:33

saw it, I saw it. But

12:36

here's what I want to do now. Let's stay

12:38

in this fight for you. And I think that

12:41

narrative can be important if they

12:44

find what they need to find to do it. I

12:48

love Cornell, what Michael Steele is saying.

12:52

I am sitting in this real,

12:55

real epiphany about the differences in

12:57

the DNA between the two parties.

13:00

And I try to

13:02

never forget to express my gratitude

13:04

for being welcomed into the Democracy

13:07

Coalition, right? Like Michael Steele

13:09

and I sit in this coalition as, I'm

13:12

more than a visitor. I've

13:14

abandoned the Republican Party. I mean, I

13:17

think there's this thing where

13:19

because the Democrats are so

13:21

earnestly committed to governing, they

13:24

are so self-conscious of

13:26

any flaws, right? And

13:28

I think that Republicans, because

13:30

this iteration of Republicans is

13:32

committed to MAGA, which

13:35

is about burning everything down, you

13:37

know, it took

13:39

the Access Hollywood tape for them to walk

13:41

away temporarily and then run, not

13:43

walk back to their man. And I

13:45

wonder what your thoughts are today and

13:48

what that sort of the difference in the DNA

13:50

of the two parties says about the path forward.

13:54

Well, this is fantastic because this is actually where

13:56

I was going. The only reason I wanted to

13:58

be on the show today is that actually go

14:00

here. And you know, Nicole,

14:03

it's a thing where, you know, as a Southerner, you know,

14:06

we don't take other people beaten up on the South,

14:08

but we'll beat up on the South as

14:11

a Southerner, right? It's ours to beat

14:13

up on. As the person here, in

14:15

all respect to Rev, the person here

14:17

most deeply ingrained in democratic politics

14:20

and campaign politics, I'm

14:22

going to say this. And that is,

14:24

there's a perception out there that, and this

14:26

builds on what, what chairman still was saying.

14:28

There's a perception out there among voters that

14:30

Democrats aren't strong fighters and they don't fight

14:32

for what they believe in. And

14:36

if you watch how

14:38

Democrats ran away from the

14:41

man who beat Trump and

14:44

has delivered an extraordinary

14:46

amount of their issue agenda and

14:49

a historic way over the last couple of years, if

14:51

you saw the way they ran away from this man,

14:54

because as a stutterer, he

14:56

has a hard time. And as an old man,

14:59

he has a hard time sometimes putting

15:03

out his thoughts clearly in his

15:05

speech. If you saw the way

15:07

they ran away from this man last night as a

15:10

voter, it reinforces the idea

15:12

that these are people who actually don't

15:14

stand by and fight for what they

15:16

believe in and fight for people they

15:18

believe in. And this is nothing new,

15:20

right? I watched a complete meltdown on

15:23

the left after the first

15:25

Obama Romney debate, complete meltdown

15:29

on the left. If you go back

15:31

even further, right, there was, there was, you

15:33

know, after the debate and, and, and Bill

15:35

Clinton was behind Ross Perot double digits. There

15:37

was a, there was again, a complete

15:40

meltdown and it is a difference.

15:42

Like Republicans will rally around and

15:44

support, you know,

15:46

their candidates no matter what. You talk

15:49

about a man who got 30 some

15:51

felonies, someone who's on tape talking about

15:53

grabbing women by their private parts, someone

15:55

who's been adjudicated and found liable of

15:58

sexual assault and what the

16:00

Republican. party is done, they rally around support

16:02

and make it all right. Most

16:05

of the damage being done to Joe

16:07

Biden and his campaign today after

16:09

the debate is not being done

16:11

by Republicans. It's being done by

16:13

progressives, being done by Democrats who

16:16

are not rallying around the man who's delivered

16:19

for them, but running away from the man

16:21

who's delivered to them. And I've

16:23

got to deal with reporters calling me

16:25

saying Democrats are talking about a broker

16:28

of convention. And I'm saying that's absolutely ridiculous.

16:30

It's not something that could even happen, but

16:32

that's a problem of Democrats and going forward,

16:35

you know what's going to happen in this

16:37

campaign going forward. It

16:39

depends on what Democrats do. It doesn't depend

16:41

on what the Republicans do. It depends

16:44

on whether or not these Democrats who

16:46

are now panicking are

16:49

going to rally around and support the

16:51

man who brought them to the dance

16:53

and delivered their issue agenda, or

16:56

they're going to continue to sort of

16:58

whine and complain and try to cut

17:00

and run from Joe Biden. It's a

17:03

moment not for Joe Biden, but a

17:05

moment for Democrats. I

17:09

completely agree with you, I want to follow up.

17:11

I mean, I had this theory after

17:14

Hillary Clinton's defeat that Bernie Sanders

17:16

did as much damage to her

17:18

as Donald Trump did, because if

17:20

you were a voter, you

17:23

heard the same lines of attack against

17:25

Hillary Clinton from the far left and

17:27

whatever Trump is, the Trump right. And

17:30

I wonder if this

17:33

debate last night is

17:35

sort of the beginning of

17:38

Democrats looking at this choice. I

17:40

mean, you're not running against someone

17:43

who's going to put in place

17:45

policies you abhor. You're running against

17:47

someone in a party that's so

17:49

broken. They have rallied behind a

17:51

felon, a convicted felon who's been

17:53

found lying. I mean, he's such

17:55

a different figure than he was

17:57

four years ago. He's a different

17:59

figure. than he was four months

18:01

ago. We live in post-January 6th

18:03

America. We live in post-liable for

18:05

sexual assault Donald Trump. We live

18:07

in post convicted felonies. He's awaiting

18:10

sentencing for 34 felonies and

18:12

he faces dozens more. What

18:15

is and who leads the

18:17

conversation among Democrats to

18:20

say, let's go

18:22

guys, you know, believe. I mean, who

18:24

placed Ted Lasso in the next five

18:26

months? Well, I think

18:28

all of us and I think one is

18:30

the vice president did a fantastic job last

18:33

night supporting and

18:36

standing in the president's corner. But

18:39

I also think, I think you got someone on

18:41

the show right now who's going to talk in

18:43

a moment. Well, I see it's important in helping

18:45

lead that conversation and Reverend

18:48

Sharpton. I think it's leaders in

18:50

the progressive and democratic spaces who

18:52

respect it like that to

18:55

say, hey, kid it together

18:57

and let's rally around our candidate. And

18:59

the other thing, quick thing, Nicole, I'll

19:01

do before I let this go is

19:03

that I also think, Nicole, and you

19:05

and our political hacks, we talked about

19:08

this campaign hacks, right? Nicole,

19:10

I don't know why I would ever

19:12

have another presidential debate. If I, why?

19:15

Right? To the point is if there's no

19:17

referees and the other, and your opponent can

19:19

simply lie and make up whatever he or

19:21

she wants to make up and lies, usually

19:24

he and dump it

19:26

on television. Right. Your opponent can

19:28

say, you know, you're for killing

19:30

babies and not

19:32

a blink from the referees. Why

19:35

in the hell would I ever do another debate?

19:38

Right. We don't play sports like that. I mean,

19:40

there's no league that lets you, you know,

19:43

to take your fist and punch someone in the

19:45

face in any sport. There's no, I mean, there's

19:47

no sporting event that gets played the way

19:49

the debate was conducted last night with a decision

19:51

made. There was plenty of time for Joe Biden

19:54

to do all the fact checking, but

19:56

it's clear that the moderators didn't take

19:58

that on. their responsibility. We are going

20:00

to turn the floor over to the

20:02

Rev. I have to sneak in a

20:05

quick break first. On the other side,

20:07

the floor will be his. Also to

20:09

come, Democratic lawmakers are doing a lot

20:11

of what we're talking about. They are

20:13

rallying around the president this afternoon after

20:15

that strong performance in North Carolina. We'll

20:17

talk with one of them who's been

20:19

sounding the alarm about Donald Trump's danger

20:21

for years. We'll get a check in

20:23

on the feelings on Capitol Hill today

20:25

and later in the broadcast highlighting just

20:27

how important the 2024 election really is.

20:29

The Supreme Court today issuing two

20:32

huge decisions. One on

20:34

how hundreds of January 6 riders who stormed

20:36

the Capitol were prosecuted. The other impacting how

20:38

we regulate just about everything in this country

20:40

from healthcare to the environment to the ability

20:43

to make sure the water your kids drink

20:45

is clean to the seatbelts in your car.

20:47

We'll talk about all of it more when

20:50

Deadland White House continues after a quick break.

20:52

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ashley.com. Ashley, for the love of home. How

22:01

would you describe this? Double what? Double frustrated.

22:04

Double frustrated. How about you? Double

22:06

cringe. Double cringe. The feeling

22:09

I had inside was Trump, hell

22:11

no. He lied through the whole thing.

22:14

And Biden is like, oh no, he is

22:16

really in a bad place. Can

22:19

he even run in

22:22

the rest of the election or take the White House again? I

22:25

came to watch, to try to watch,

22:28

two relatively sane

22:31

people talk about what

22:33

they're going to do for the country. And we

22:35

got two second

22:37

graders having a slugfest on the

22:39

playground. I'm

22:42

Decided about who's there in Arizona talking

22:45

to our colleague, NBC's Gotti Schwartz, after

22:47

last night's debate. We're back with Michael,

22:49

The Rev, Cornell and Sarah. Rob, the

22:51

floor is yours. Your thoughts? Well,

22:54

I think that clearly it was

22:57

not a good performance by President

23:00

Biden. But at the same

23:02

time, I think it was revealing of who

23:05

Donald Trump was. Donald Trump was

23:08

unrepentant in terms of

23:10

what he had done to women's rights.

23:12

He literally started talking about states' rights.

23:16

In the black community, when you start

23:18

talking about states' rights, we're talking about

23:20

going back to Jim Crow, which one

23:22

of his surrogates is saying was the

23:24

strongest period in our lives. And

23:27

when you look at lie after lie

23:29

that was told by Donald Trump, I

23:31

think that a lot of undecided people

23:33

and a lot of people that were

23:36

leaning his way said, this is too

23:38

much. Yes, Joe Biden

23:40

had a bad start. He picked

23:42

up steam later. It

23:45

wasn't his best night. But are we really

23:47

going to forget? He is a

23:49

man who was vice president when Barack

23:52

Obama and he inherited

23:55

the economy that had gone through

23:57

a real tough period with George

23:59

Bush. Now he had to

24:01

come behind COVID and what was

24:04

mishandled by Trump and bring us

24:06

through another bad economy. He's the

24:09

only person I know that went through two

24:11

economic crisis revivals and did it. And we're

24:13

going to worry about he had a bad

24:15

night. It is not about

24:17

Joe Biden's night. It's about our future.

24:20

When you have a man standing there

24:22

saying that I'm committed to stacking the

24:24

Supreme Court, the limit freedoms, I'm committed

24:26

to states rights. I'm committed to making

24:28

NATO have to have a stick up.

24:31

And you have someone on the other

24:33

side that has fought on all those

24:35

issues. The question is what we're going

24:37

to do, not whether Joe Biden is

24:39

going to do. Lastly, you

24:41

know, one of the guys I

24:43

know that's Republican called me and said, your

24:45

guy did terrible last night. I said, but

24:47

I thought you all said he was on

24:49

drugs. I thought he was going to be

24:52

on ups. I thought he what

24:55

happened to all of the scenarios you

24:57

all ran down. You run down the

24:59

arts of the black community that Donald

25:01

Trump's mugshot turns us on like all

25:04

of us are criminal and thieves and

25:06

that we identify with him because the

25:08

system oppress us. He's

25:10

being prosecuted by blacks. The DA in

25:12

Manhattan and Georgia are black. What

25:15

system? So all of this, I think,

25:17

is revealing to him. I think the

25:19

key word that I heard today, you

25:22

played in just a little

25:24

while ago, Nicole, when

25:27

Joe Biden stands up and say

25:29

you fall down, you get back

25:31

up. He's speaking to every disinherited

25:34

America that understands that and identifies.

25:36

And the only thing he needs to

25:39

do now is get back up and

25:41

and he will use this as a

25:43

launch for having fell down

25:45

in front of the country last night.

25:48

Don't forget, Donald Trump's got to be

25:50

in court September 11th to be sentenced.

25:52

His parole officer has to approve of

25:54

his traveling around the country. All

25:56

Joe Biden has to do is keep getting

25:58

up. So

26:01

Sarah Longwell, I think that what everyone

26:03

is saying is really sort of forward

26:06

focus, which it sounds like from your

26:08

group and from Gotti's group and from

26:10

some of the things I've seen, voters

26:13

don't sort of look back in

26:15

any context, right? What's done is

26:17

done, they look forward. If you're

26:19

looking forward from the Biden campaign's

26:21

perspective, what is the next best

26:23

move they could make? Well,

26:27

look, I mean, I think they have to have

26:29

an honest conversation about how well Joe Biden can

26:32

prosecute this case against Trump. I don't agree with

26:34

everything that everybody has said on this panel. I

26:36

think tonight, last night was damaging. And I think

26:38

that there has to be some real introspection about

26:40

that. I think we can all sit here and

26:42

talk about how big of

26:44

a liability Trump is. And

26:46

obviously, I believe that nobody wants to beat Donald Trump

26:48

more than I do. But

26:50

to do that, you have to be able

26:52

to prosecute a case against Donald Trump. He

26:54

is it and there are a million things, a

26:57

million liabilities. Nicole, you can rattle them off one

26:59

after the other, things that Donald Trump has

27:01

done that make him absolutely morally, ethically, temperamentally

27:03

unfit to be the president of the United

27:05

States. Somebody's got to be able to prosecute

27:07

that case against him. And if it's not Joe

27:09

Biden, that has to be a conversation. If

27:11

it is Joe Biden, then everybody's got to

27:13

figure out how to go on offense, including

27:15

Joe Biden, right? Offense all day

27:17

long, because the fact is, you're going to have to

27:20

make this a referendum on Trump. That

27:22

was always true. Last night was Joe Biden's biggest chance

27:24

to make it a referendum on Trump. And

27:26

it didn't happen. And so now we got

27:28

to figure out, can he make it a

27:30

referendum on Trump? Can he go on offense?

27:32

Can every Democrat go on

27:34

offense with him and make it about Trump?

27:36

Because that is the only way you're going

27:38

to win over the American people on this

27:41

is to make it so that they look,

27:43

the biggest coalition in America is an

27:45

anti-Trump coalition. And you got to hold that

27:47

coalition together. That job got harder last night,

27:49

and we should not lie to ourselves about

27:51

that. And so if you're going to move

27:53

forward, you better figure out how you're going

27:55

to pull that anti-Trump coalition back together. And

27:57

that's going to take Joe Biden getting back

27:59

up and doing a much, much better job

28:01

going forward every single day than

28:04

what we saw last night, because it confirmed a lot of people's

28:06

worst fears last night. You

28:08

know, Cornell, what that looks like is a

28:10

campaign that, you

28:12

know, I hope Joe Biden is comfortable

28:15

waging, but it is an exceedingly negative

28:17

campaign, nothing fabricated, no truth stretched, but

28:19

the real brutal facts about Donald Trump.

28:22

He's a man who today boasts about

28:24

stealing state secrets and has no remorse

28:26

about endangering the lives of American and

28:29

international allies and intelligence

28:31

agencies. He's a man who boasts about

28:33

inciting a deadly insurrection that threatened the

28:35

life of his own vice president. He's

28:37

a man who today thinks that if

28:39

you're famous, you can grab women between

28:41

the legs because, quote, that's what famous

28:44

people have done for 1 million years.

28:46

He is an unrepentant liar, an unrepentant,

28:48

unpatriotic danger to the

28:50

country. And I guess my question for

28:52

you is, is what

28:55

is the answer to Sarah's question? Can he

28:57

prosecute that case? No,

29:00

I think Sarah, as always, makes a

29:02

really fine point, and I think it's completely fair. So

29:05

as a campaign hack, you know, how do

29:07

you solve this problem? And let's level set

29:09

for a moment. And

29:12

if Joe Biden were here sitting right beside me now,

29:14

I don't think he would disagree that terribly with this

29:16

statement I'm about to say. Joe

29:18

Biden, when he was 40, wasn't necessarily what

29:21

we thought of as a great campaigner,

29:23

right? He's never historically been a great

29:26

campaigner, and he's not gonna turn

29:28

into Bill Clinton or

29:30

Barack Obama overnight, right?

29:32

So, but Sarah's right, you

29:34

do have to prosecute the case. But I think

29:37

we're at an age right now where we are

29:39

less reliant on one person prosecuting a case than

29:45

a chorus prosecuting a case, right? The biggest

29:47

voice in politics right now, I

29:49

think there's a downside to that actually, but

29:51

the biggest voice in politics right now is

29:53

social media, right? And so I

29:56

don't think it's necessarily just

29:58

the president and adviser. president, but as

30:00

a surrogate, but it's also influencers. It's

30:02

also to that point, again, Democrats

30:04

around the country leaning in, right, and

30:06

helping prosecute that case. Joe Biden cannot

30:08

prosecute this. It's such a big case.

30:11

Joe Biden can't prosecute this case by

30:13

himself, even if he did have the

30:15

skills of Bill Barack Obama. That's

30:18

right. That's right. I mean, I want to,

30:20

I want to do more on

30:23

this idea of social media and influencers because

30:25

I feel like some of what keeps cable

30:27

news sort of in its own bubble, a

30:29

bubble of our own making, is

30:31

a lack of humility about the limits

30:34

of our reach. And I think that David Puff is

30:36

talking about this. You're talking about this. And

30:39

I'm sure, Sarah, you see this. A lot

30:41

of people that are going to make the

30:43

final decision are people that will never see

30:45

any of these segments, sadly, because you're also

30:47

brilliant. But I'd love to

30:49

push through on that. So put yourselves all on

30:51

notice. We'll try to have that conversation on Monday.

30:54

Cornell, for your candor and your earnestness and your

30:56

honesty with us and with me, thank you so

30:58

much. Sarah Longwell, same compliment to you. Thank you

31:01

very much. And thank you for sharing your voters

31:03

with us. We are so appreciative of both of

31:05

you. Michael Steele and the Rev stick

31:07

around. We will be joined by Congressman Eric Swalwell

31:09

on the way forward in this campaign. A quick

31:12

break. We'll be right back. We

31:21

should stay the course. I said

31:23

that we should focus on the

31:25

bottom record. I used to

31:27

focus on substance. We

31:30

have a workhorse on behalf of the American

31:32

people. We got a shoe horse that's trying

31:34

to get them out of office. And we

31:37

don't have to question that. A very big supporter

31:39

of President Biden. We've got to go in and

31:41

got to keep our heads high. And as I

31:43

say, we've got to have the back

31:48

of this president. You don't turn your back because

31:51

of one performance. What

31:53

kind of party does

31:55

that? This is a handful

31:57

of Democratic leaders, leaders in that. party

32:00

answering one of the most asked questions in the

32:02

last 12 to 20 hours. Should

32:05

President Biden step aside after last

32:07

night's debate performance and let somebody

32:09

else face off against Donald Trump,

32:12

given the lack of any

32:14

debate or dispute about the threat the

32:16

ex-president poses to our country and our

32:18

democracy? Joining that conversation, Democratic Congressman Eric

32:20

Spalwell of California, Michael Steele and the

32:22

Rev. Al Sharpton are still here. Congressman,

32:24

today's about turning the floor over to

32:26

people who know a lot more than

32:28

I do. Your thoughts? Well,

32:31

Nicole, I'm not worried about something

32:33

that happened for 90 minutes last night. I'm worried

32:36

for my kids' sake and all kids

32:38

in America about the next four years.

32:40

But it's simple to me to explain

32:42

what happened with Joe Biden.

32:44

You saw a good man who wasn't

32:47

at his best. And

32:49

in Donald Trump, you saw a

32:51

bad man who, like always, is

32:54

just the worst. And now

32:56

we have to animate and tell the

32:58

story about who Joe Biden is and

33:00

what he's done. He's a

33:03

jobs president. No one

33:05

made the unemployment line longer than Donald

33:07

Trump. And this is Joe

33:09

Jobs, Joey Jobs, Joe freaking Jobs.

33:11

The guy created 16 million

33:14

jobs in America, and he wants to

33:16

finish the job with four more years

33:18

to grow that economy. And that's what

33:20

we should be telling Americans

33:23

right now. And that's what the president, frankly, needs

33:25

to get out there and tell the Americans right

33:27

now. Joe Jobs. That's what Joe Biden means to

33:29

me. And that's what he means to most Americans.

33:33

And what do you do

33:35

about the structural, for

33:38

some reason, our politics and

33:41

this debate last night wasn't structured in

33:43

a way that caught any of Trump's

33:45

lies. Daniel Dale there fact checked it

33:47

afterward in a really effective, powerful way

33:49

to a sliver of the audience that

33:52

watched the lies when they were told

33:54

we still have this problem of the

33:56

lies getting the big amplification and the

33:58

truth. If it ever happens. ever catches

34:01

up reaching far fewer people. Well,

34:04

it's my job to call out the lies

34:06

and it's just frankly, it's President Biden's job.

34:08

He should every single time look at Donald

34:10

Trump and say, you're a liar. Why

34:12

can't you tell the truth? He should say

34:14

that every single time before he says anything

34:17

else, because Donald Trump's a liar. And frankly,

34:19

I'm embarrassed that Joe Biden had to stand

34:21

on that stage with a convicted felon. It's

34:23

embarrassing for the president of the United States

34:26

to have to stand next to a convicted

34:28

felon, someone who is judged to have sexually

34:30

assaulted another woman, someone who owes hundreds of

34:32

millions of dollars for his fraud. Joe Biden

34:35

shouldn't have to stand next to that person,

34:37

but he should call him a liar every

34:39

single day. But what can I do and

34:41

what can your viewers do? Well, if you're

34:44

worried about what's going to happen at the

34:46

White House, think about what

34:48

can be the insurance policy against that.

34:51

We have to have the

34:54

House, the House of

34:56

Representatives with Speaker Jeffries leading

34:59

a majority can be a

35:01

torch, a flame for Joe Biden as president,

35:03

or it can be a firewall against the

35:05

worst instincts of Donald Trump. So that's what

35:08

I'm going to really focus on is what

35:10

we can do to make sure that we

35:12

have the House in 2016 when

35:15

Hillary Clinton lost, we picked up six seats

35:17

in the House as Democrats. That's actually all

35:19

it would take to be in the majority.

35:22

So Nicole, we have to have the House.

35:26

Leader Jeffries expressed some concern about the

35:28

president's performance last night, said he was

35:30

waiting to see how we performed today.

35:32

Have you seen him since Joe Biden's

35:34

North Carolina speech? Is he on

35:37

the Biden train? No, I've

35:39

not seen Speaker Jeffries, but I know

35:41

that he has already, you know, functionally

35:44

been the Speaker of the House, delivering,

35:46

you know, in the House of Representatives,

35:48

the majority of the votes on everything

35:51

that matters to most Americans, keeping government

35:53

open, funding Ukraine, paying our

35:55

bills. And as the formal speaker, as

35:57

I said, he can. be the flame for

35:59

the policies that will finish the job for

36:02

Joe Biden, or we can be the firewall

36:04

against Donald Trump. And that's what I'm focused

36:06

on right now. So as Democrats, we

36:08

can be at our worst when we're bedwetting

36:10

and soaking all the way through the

36:12

mattress, but we can be at our best

36:15

when we're boosting the leaders in our country

36:18

who can bring the change. And

36:20

again, Joe Jobs, that's who Joe Biden

36:22

is. And that story needs to start

36:25

being told immediately. Just

36:27

real quick, why do you think Joe Biden didn't

36:29

tell that story last night? Well,

36:32

look, he hasn't

36:34

debated in four years. I think it needs

36:36

to be much simpler. The message has to

36:39

be simpler. We don't need numbers.

36:41

We don't need homework. This isn't a Harvard

36:43

Law School moot court competition. This is a

36:45

gut check for every American. And Joe Biden

36:47

can win the gut check because if you

36:49

wanted a job when you were in the

36:51

unemployment line, under Joe Biden, chances are you

36:54

got a job, and not only that, you

36:56

got a job that paid more. And that

36:58

is how we need to simplify it for

37:00

every American when he goes up against Donald

37:02

Trump again and when he's on the trail

37:04

across the country for the next four months.

37:08

Congressman Eric Swalwell, as

37:11

promised, we turned over the floor to you.

37:13

You had some great advice for Democrats on

37:16

this day where I know there is still

37:18

some pockets of anxiety. Thank you for spending time with

37:21

us and addressing it head on. Thanks, Nicole. We'll have

37:23

much more with Michael Still on the Rev after a quick

37:26

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at Helmand's.com. think

42:00

really is underscored by that clip

42:02

from today's speech. There's

42:06

a lot. There's a lot in which

42:08

you just said, Nicole. And the narratives

42:10

to me, as they've

42:13

come about in this campaign, at once

42:17

are very frustrating, how

42:19

they're covered by the media

42:22

overall. Donald Trump has

42:24

been given a license by the media

42:27

that I think has contributed mightily to

42:29

a lot of this. The

42:31

format at I'd like that debate last

42:34

night. And I know that there are a lot of technical

42:36

issues that people can say about not

42:38

having the moderators push back and all

42:40

of that. But the one

42:42

thing I will say about it is

42:45

that it did level up and expose

42:47

everything. We now know. We've

42:49

level set this race. We

42:51

now know what it looks like. We now

42:53

know who these people are. We

42:55

see the flaws of an

42:57

elderly president who, as

43:00

he admitted in that North Carolina speech,

43:02

has trouble walking. And yeah, the words

43:04

don't come out as cleanly and smoothly

43:06

as some would like. But

43:09

what you also saw was on the other

43:11

side of him a rabid,

43:15

ravenous, egomaniacal

43:17

individual who

43:19

made everything about him, who

43:21

even in the face of his own 34 convictions said,

43:25

oh, yeah, well, the president's son is convicted.

43:27

He's convicted at a higher level. What, at

43:29

a higher level than you as president, as

43:31

a former president with 34 convictions? So

43:35

it was clarifying on so many levels last

43:37

night. But here's the rub for me. Today,

43:41

the media is doing another horse race.

43:44

Who's going to replace Joe Biden? Who's

43:47

favorable? Who's not favorable? Could

43:49

you stop the BS, please? Because that

43:52

race isn't happening. Tell

43:55

us the story of the race that is happening. And

43:58

that's the important part of this that I'm going to talk I think it's

44:00

missed often. Let's listen

44:02

to Joe Biden. He's right now at an event in

44:04

New York City. Well,

44:09

for generations, they've been at the forefront

44:11

of helping realize the promise of America

44:13

for all Americans. Look, in

44:16

2016, President Obama, the vice president

44:18

at the time, designated Christopher Park

44:20

as a national monument. Today

44:23

I'm proud to unveil a new

44:26

visitor center for Stonewall National Monument,

44:28

the first ever LGBTQ plus visitor

44:31

center in the National Parks of

44:33

America. And

44:36

it matters. It

44:43

matters. We remain in a

44:45

battle for the soul of America. I know I've said

44:47

that for a while now. People looked at me when

44:49

I first said it like I was kidding. I'm not.

44:52

We're in a battle for the soul of America. Well,

44:55

I look around at the pride, hope and light that

44:57

all of you, all of you bring.

45:00

I know it was a battle we're going to

45:02

win and continue to make progress. LGBTQ

45:04

plus people are some of the most inspiring

45:06

people I know. And of

45:09

course, the courage. You know,

45:12

I talked to a lot of younger LGBTQ

45:15

people in their teens

45:17

and twenties. And I remind

45:19

them, for a lot of people who started

45:21

this operation, you took your life in your own hands,

45:24

not figuratively, literally. You took

45:26

your jobs in your own hands. You were put up

45:28

in a position where you were so

45:31

much to lose and you still did it. You

45:33

still did it. I remember my

45:35

dad was dropping me off to get a

45:37

license to be a lifeguard in Wilmington, Delaware,

45:40

in the swimming pools. And

45:42

I got out of the car and Rodney Square, they

45:44

call it. And there's a, that's

45:46

where the Pomp Building is and the

45:48

Hercules Corporation, all in that one

45:50

quarter. And two well-dressed men

45:52

were kissing each other. I hadn't

45:54

seen it before. I looked at my dad, I was

45:56

16 years old, looked at my dad and

45:59

he said, it's simple. They love each other. It's simple.

46:01

He was a good man. And

46:15

your courage and contributions enrich every part

46:17

of American life. You

46:19

set an example I'm not exaggerating for the

46:21

entire world. That's what

46:23

this center, this monument, this month is

46:26

all about. So today, let's

46:29

proudly remember who we are. We're the

46:31

United States of America. And there's

46:33

nothing beyond our capacity to work together.

46:35

And everyone deserves to be treated with

46:37

dignity and respect no matter what their

46:39

background, period, period, period. As

46:48

you can tell, I want

46:51

to say a hell of a lot more about what I'm

46:54

going to do. Because I want

46:56

to hear a guy, you know, there's a guy

46:58

that you've probably heard about. He's a dear friend. A

47:01

guy like so many Americans whose

47:04

family loves this iconic music my

47:06

family loves. And of course, his

47:09

incredible music career, he also empowered

47:11

countless people to be themselves, be

47:14

treated with dignity and respect they deserve, including

47:16

those in the fight against HIV AIDS,

47:20

a fight he led with sheer willpower.

47:23

Two years ago, Jill and

47:25

I had the honor to host him

47:27

at the White House and bestow on

47:29

him the National Humanitarian Humanities Medal, one

47:32

of America's highest awards. So

47:34

today, we're honored to be with him

47:36

again here at Stonewall. Please

47:38

welcome Elton John. I want to listen

47:40

to that. We'll

47:46

keep watching. We'll

47:49

keep watching. We'll monitor that and turn around

47:52

anywhere news that's made today by the president and

47:54

his guest Elton John. I want to thank Michael

47:56

Steele and Reverend Al Sharpton. These conversations are not

47:58

always easy, but they're important. and there's no one

48:00

better to have them with than those two. Up

48:03

next for us, two decisions released today

48:05

by the super conservative United States Supreme

48:07

Court underscore what we're talking about, the

48:09

stark choice and the stakes facing every

48:11

last one of us in November. Do

48:13

we want to live in a country

48:15

that supports democracy or a slide

48:17

toward autocracy? The next hour of Deadland White House

48:19

starts after a quick break. Don't go anywhere today.

48:29

Donald Trump is a genuine threat to

48:32

this nation. He's

48:34

a threat to our freedom. He's

48:36

a threat toward democracy. He's

48:39

literally a threat for everything America

48:41

stands for. Look,

48:44

he doesn't understand what I think all of you do. America

48:48

is the finest and most unique nation in the

48:50

world. Hi

48:53

again, everyone. It's now 5 o'clock in

48:56

the East, still feeling the aftershocks of

48:58

last night's debate, the country now we

49:00

focusing its attention on the hugely consequential

49:03

choice before it in November. No

49:05

matter what anyone thinks of last

49:07

night's debate, if they happen to

49:10

watch it or either of the

49:12

candidates, what is unchanged at this

49:14

hour is that November's election is

49:16

a fundamental, unprecedented choice between drastically

49:19

different ideologies and visions for the

49:21

future of this country, whether it

49:23

remains a democracy, a choice between

49:25

just that, democracy versus a slide

49:28

toward autocracy. Voters cannot forget how

49:30

the Republican presumptive nominee incited a

49:32

deadly insurrection, how he cozies up

49:34

to and flatters autocrats while pushing

49:37

forward an agenda that replicates theirs

49:39

and who has no respect for

49:42

the rule of law in America.

49:44

Underscoring the stakes of the election

49:46

in November even further, newly released

49:48

decisions by the US Supreme Court

49:50

earlier today. The conservative supermajority,

49:52

which includes three of the justices

49:55

handpicked by Donald Trump himself, overturned

49:58

a 40-year-old precedent. taking aim

50:00

at the power of federal

50:02

agencies to function. The

50:05

Chevron ruling, as the SCOTUS blog puts

50:07

it, cuts back sharply

50:09

on the power of federal agencies to

50:11

interpret the laws they administer and

50:14

ruled that courts should rely on

50:16

their own interpretation of ambiguous laws.

50:18

The decision will likely have far-reaching

50:21

effects across the country, from environmental

50:23

regulation to healthcare costs. Today also

50:25

saw the court rule in favor

50:27

of the January 6th insurrectionist who

50:29

challenged his obstruction of official proceeding

50:31

charge. That ruling, which we will

50:33

dive into a little deeper in

50:36

a minute, could have an impact

50:38

on hundreds of other January 6th

50:40

prosecutions as well. And there's still

50:42

more to come from this

50:44

highest court in the land. The Supreme

50:46

Court has indicated that on Monday, that'll

50:49

be their final day, and on Monday

50:51

we will find out just how extreme

50:54

this court really is when it releases

50:56

its final decision on Donald

50:58

Trump's claim that a president should be

51:00

immune from prosecution. It will be a

51:02

momentous decision. We'll see if this court

51:04

believes that Donald Trump, or

51:06

any president, is above the law in

51:09

the United States of America. It's where

51:11

we start the hour with some of

51:13

our favorite experts and friends. Senior editor

51:15

for Slate hosted the Amicus podcast, Dahlia

51:18

Lithwick is lucky for us back with

51:20

us. Also joining us, the executive director

51:22

of Fix the Court, Gabe Roth, and

51:24

former top prosecutor at DOJ, MSNBC legal

51:27

analyst, Andrew Weissman. So for

51:29

you wonks, I know Chevron gets short-handed.

51:31

I need someone to sort of take

51:33

me to school. Dahlia, can you just

51:36

remind me what this decision is and

51:38

what their opinion does? Maybe

51:42

I would just say this, that

51:44

all of the people

51:47

think that watching the

51:49

sort of horse race of last

51:51

night's presidential debate is

51:53

in fact a conversation about

51:56

stakes. Chevron is it, Chevron

51:58

is real stakes. if you look at

52:00

what the Supreme Court did today, I

52:03

think it's fair to say that

52:05

whatever horse race is going on

52:07

in the presidential contest, there's like

52:09

a tank division moving in that's

52:11

gonna change the way we all

52:13

live our lives, regardless of who

52:15

wins the horse race. So Chevron

52:17

is essentially shorthand for a longstanding

52:19

tradition that says that if there's

52:21

an ambiguous statute, the courts defer

52:23

to the agency itself and their

52:26

interpretation of how to read that

52:28

statute. Why? Because agencies are teaming

52:30

with people who know science and

52:32

who understand how the climate works

52:34

and who understand how healthcare works

52:36

and who understands how guns work.

52:38

And essentially what the court said

52:40

today is, nope, from here on

52:42

in, we're going to irrigate to

52:44

courts the power to

52:46

decide how agency regulations are

52:48

interpreted. And I don't

52:50

wanna be in any way alarmist

52:53

about this, but this is a

52:55

wholesale transfer of power

52:57

over federal regulatory agencies, clean

53:00

water, clean air, guns, healthcare,

53:02

monetary policy, all of it is

53:04

shifted now away from federal agencies

53:06

and into the laps of courts.

53:09

And I think the last very,

53:11

very cynical thing I'm gonna say

53:13

is that the Supreme Court can't

53:15

even control its own website this

53:17

week, downloading, uploading opinions before they're

53:20

ready to go. It is hard

53:22

to understand how they can have

53:24

the kind of expertise to talk

53:26

about nuanced things like climate and

53:28

healthcare if they can't even sort

53:30

out their own in-house procedures. Well,

53:33

it's a pretty profound point. I mean, it sounds

53:35

small, but it gets to the essence of what

53:38

this decision does. I

53:40

appreciate everything that you said, and

53:42

especially this contrast and this

53:45

warning almost to be careful if

53:47

you dabble in horse race analysis

53:49

because nothing less than the future

53:51

of our government to function is

53:54

already on the line, is already at stake. The

53:57

only thing I would say is you're

53:59

not being alarmist, but Justice Kagan. certainly

54:01

was. Let me read from her dissent.

54:03

Quote, in one fell swoop, the majority

54:05

today gives its exclusive power over every

54:08

open issue, no matter how

54:10

expertise driven or policy-laden, involving

54:12

the meaning of regulatory law.

54:15

As if it did not have enough on

54:17

its plate, the majority turns itself into

54:20

the country's administrative czar.

54:23

That is an alarm,

54:26

the likes of which I don't know that we've

54:29

seen this term.

54:32

Zalia. The

54:36

other thing I would just point out

54:38

that Justice Kagan does, and this is

54:40

familiar to those of us who remember

54:43

the dissent in Dobbs, is her dissent

54:45

here is really a critter curve about

54:48

what it means when the

54:50

majority willy-nilly reverses precedent without

54:52

doing so carefully, without thoughtfully

54:55

assessing what it is that's happening. And, you

54:58

know, we've talked so much in the last

55:01

months about the need for stability

55:03

and predictability in the law. And

55:05

what she's warning in addition to this kind

55:08

of wholesale power grab by the courts that

55:10

I think, frankly, you're right, terrifies her. I

55:12

think the other thing she's saying is every

55:15

precedent is on the line. This is

55:18

now a decision that if it

55:20

gets five votes, precedent is gone.

55:22

And again, we have organized our

55:25

lives for four decades on the

55:27

proposition that this is how government

55:29

works, that regulatory agencies should feel

55:31

free to try to do their

55:33

best to regulate complicated social problems.

55:36

And to have that just go away

55:38

in the blink of an eye without

55:40

much understanding of what it is to

55:42

reverse that precedent is almost the most

55:44

chilling part of this for Justice Kagan.

55:48

Andrew Iseman, let me read a little

55:50

bit more of what Dalia is talking

55:52

about. This is from Justice Kagan's dissent.

55:54

Quote, it barely tries to advance the

55:56

usual factors this court invokes for overruling

55:59

precedent. justification comes down

56:01

in the end to this.

56:03

Courts must have more say

56:05

over regulation, over the provision

56:07

of health care, the protection

56:09

of the environment, the safety

56:11

of consumer products, the efficacy

56:13

of transportation systems, and so

56:16

on. A long-standing precedent at

56:18

the crux of administrative governance

56:20

thus falls victim to a

56:22

bald assertion of judicial authority.

56:24

The majority distains restraint and

56:26

grasps for power. Wow,

56:31

I've read that now four times, only out

56:33

loud twice, and that

56:35

just feels so

56:37

profound to me. The

56:40

majority distains

56:43

restraint and grasps for power.

56:48

Well, Nicole, as somebody who

56:51

understands what Republicans in this

56:54

country stand for, that's what's

56:56

so remarkable here, because

56:59

the court is supposed to be

57:01

a body, according

57:04

to Republican orthodoxy, what used

57:06

to be Republican orthodoxy was

57:08

restraint of the courts because

57:10

it's viewed as a sort

57:12

of anti-democratic check. And

57:15

that is what she is saying it is not.

57:18

In some ways, this is a real

57:20

wake up call from last night, because

57:22

it tells you, if you

57:25

didn't know this from Dobbs, you know

57:27

this from this decision, that

57:29

the Supreme Court is so on

57:31

the ballot. For those of us

57:33

in the legal field, it's hard

57:35

to stress enough what

57:37

Dalia is saying, because it's

57:39

not just that this changes

57:41

the fundamental way in which

57:43

the courts have dealt with

57:45

the administrative state, certainly at

57:47

least since FDR, but

57:50

also because of the complete lack

57:52

of respect for precedent, it just

57:55

signals that this court is willing

57:57

to do to Chevron, to Rover,

57:59

versus Wade, and

58:02

if it goes forward in a Trump

58:04

2.0, like

58:06

everything's on the table. And that is the

58:08

message from the decision today more than any

58:10

of the cases that we've seen this term.

58:13

This is such a clarion

58:16

call for why it is so

58:18

important for people who disagree

58:20

with what's going on to get to

58:22

the ballot box and to really think

58:25

about the Supreme Court in the way

58:27

that Republicans for decades have thought about

58:29

the Supreme Court being a fundamental institution

58:32

they wanted to change. I

58:34

mean, Andrew, what uncorks this? I mean, all

58:36

of them, did they lie in their confirmation

58:39

hearings when they described precedent and super precedent?

58:41

And if you're not a lawyer and you're

58:43

not a Supreme Court watcher, you barely understand

58:45

that, but you think it means they won't

58:47

touch things that have been there a long

58:49

time. What uncorks them

58:51

and turns them into this really,

58:54

really active, agitated,

58:56

sort of burn it all

58:58

down body. You

59:03

know, I don't know, and I

59:05

also don't know if there's

59:07

an answer for all of the justices. You

59:09

know, I think that there's

59:12

an answer for Alito and Thomas

59:14

that may be different than Amy

59:16

Coney Barrett and

59:18

Chief Justice Roberts. And the reason I

59:20

sort of single out

59:22

Amy Coney Barrett is she

59:25

has issued some fairly interesting

59:27

decisions in the

59:29

last couple of weeks. Indeed, we're gonna

59:32

talk about the obstruction decision and

59:34

she actually writes the dissent.

59:38

And so, you do get the

59:40

sense of a mind that is thinking and

59:44

that is not just a

59:46

knee-jerk reaction to

59:48

side automatically with what you know

59:50

Justice Alito is going to think,

59:52

but I think for Justice Alito,

59:54

he is leading a charge that

59:58

is very much a sort of... what I

1:00:00

would call a MAGA justice. Just

1:00:03

it seems so unthoughtful and

1:00:05

so untethered to the

1:00:08

facts and a complete disrespect for

1:00:10

decades of other jurists, as if

1:00:12

the other people who served on

1:00:14

the Supreme Court were a bunch

1:00:16

of bumpkins. I mean, there's just

1:00:18

the whole idea of what's called

1:00:20

stare decisis, where you're supposed to

1:00:22

say, you know what, I may

1:00:24

disagree with a prior decision, but

1:00:26

it cannot be that just because

1:00:28

the composition of the court changes,

1:00:30

that you're suddenly gonna overturn a

1:00:32

decision from last week or last

1:00:34

year. And there's supposed to be

1:00:36

this sense of continuity. And once

1:00:38

a decision is made, it's supposed

1:00:40

to take a lot to overturn

1:00:42

it. And that I think is

1:00:44

the thing that I thought was

1:00:46

just so fundamentally upsetting

1:00:49

about the decision today, was

1:00:51

that there was no really

1:00:53

good argument for why suddenly

1:00:55

now Chevron was gone in

1:00:58

such a bold sweeping way. I

1:01:00

thought their treatment of precedent just

1:01:02

signaled to me that if

1:01:05

you think Dobbs was the end of

1:01:07

where the court was gonna go, it

1:01:09

to me, this decision means no, that's

1:01:11

the beginning. Gabe,

1:01:15

Dobbs was something that

1:01:18

you didn't have to be an expert

1:01:20

in the Supreme Court or the law

1:01:22

to understand because it affected every woman's

1:01:24

life. Chevron affects every element of American

1:01:26

life as well, but it's a more

1:01:30

complicated story to tell. Can you

1:01:32

start trying to tell that story for

1:01:34

us? Sure,

1:01:37

the federal government has billions of employees

1:01:39

and many of them are experts in

1:01:41

their fields, as Dalia mentioned from folks

1:01:44

ensuring that our water and our air is

1:01:46

clean, so our medicine and our food are

1:01:49

safe. And those individuals

1:01:51

work for the executive branch and

1:01:53

sometimes when Congress writes a law

1:01:55

about medicine or food or health,

1:01:58

the language is ambiguous. And that's

1:02:00

just sort of the nature of

1:02:02

language. If language wasn't ambiguous, your

1:02:05

show would be 30 seconds

1:02:07

long with debate weird, bonus

1:02:10

overturned three opinions from lower

1:02:12

courts, end of show, and they'd be dead air

1:02:14

for 59 and a half minutes. But language is

1:02:16

ambiguous, it's worth talking things out. And

1:02:18

sometimes that means deferring to the

1:02:20

experts in the field. Unfortunately, what

1:02:22

today we have is the justices,

1:02:24

as Dahlia mentioned, arrogating a lot

1:02:26

of that power to themselves. To

1:02:29

me, it's not just the Supreme Court that is

1:02:31

going to be doing it, right? There will be

1:02:34

earthquakes and aftershocks that we will be feeling for

1:02:36

decades. And you have lower court judges appointed

1:02:38

by presidents of both parties. But so

1:02:41

pick the ones you like and pick the ones you

1:02:44

don't like, but you're going to have maybe half

1:02:46

a dozen cases about Chevron coming down in

1:02:48

the next couple of years. But you're going

1:02:50

to have thousands, if not tens of thousands of

1:02:52

cases in the lower courts where there's going to

1:02:55

be an ambiguous agency action. And you're going to

1:02:57

have lower court judges, unelected officials, deciding

1:03:00

things about water and air and medicine

1:03:03

and healthcare and the like. And

1:03:05

if you don't like what an agency

1:03:07

is doing, you vote out their boss every

1:03:09

four years, right? The agency

1:03:11

head is beholden to a president and the president's change every

1:03:13

four to eight years. You don't have

1:03:16

that in the federal judiciary. The Supreme Court justices

1:03:18

serve for life, the lower court judges serve for

1:03:20

life. So if they're viewing Chevron

1:03:22

or the end of Chevron in one way,

1:03:24

and that way isn't great for our air

1:03:26

or water, that view is going to be

1:03:28

the prevailing view for potentially decades unless Congress

1:03:31

gets its act together and actually passes a

1:03:33

law that brings some of the power back

1:03:35

to our elected officials. Gabe,

1:03:38

let me ask you to jump in on the

1:03:40

political conversation that I'm so grateful to all of

1:03:42

you. We're having side by

1:03:44

side because that's how the American people are experiencing

1:03:47

these decisions. They have unprecedented

1:03:49

levels of skepticism and questions about

1:03:51

the Supreme Court because of these

1:03:53

decisions. This is something

1:03:55

Justice Sonia Sotomayor said at Harvard

1:03:58

last month. I've played it before, but in the court.

1:04:00

context of Justice Kagan's dissent, I want to play it

1:04:02

again. We

1:04:05

did go backwards in Dobbs. I've said it's

1:04:08

in my dissent, so I'm not saying something new.

1:04:10

OK? We've taken away a right.

1:04:13

We've never done that in our history.

1:04:15

Mind you, there are

1:04:17

days that

1:04:20

I've come to my office after an announcement

1:04:23

of a case and closed

1:04:25

my door and cried. There

1:04:27

have been those days. And they're

1:04:29

likely to be more. You

1:04:33

take what she's saying. You take what Justice

1:04:35

Kagan has written. And it feels like the

1:04:37

warnings and the calls are coming from inside

1:04:39

the house, Gabe. Yeah,

1:04:42

look, this is a very upsetting time,

1:04:44

I would imagine, to be a liberal

1:04:46

justice on the Supreme Court, primarily

1:04:49

with Dobbs, obviously. I mean, that was the

1:04:52

earthquake of all earthquakes. And I think Justice

1:04:54

Sotomayor was definitely referring to that when she

1:04:56

was talking about closing her door and

1:04:59

crying. But there are other opinions

1:05:01

that overturn precedent, like

1:05:03

today's decision in Loperbright,

1:05:06

that not only liberals

1:05:09

aren't going to like, but conservatives have to

1:05:11

breathe the air and drink the water too and

1:05:13

take the medicine and eat the food. So I

1:05:16

think that though there have

1:05:18

been some money to interests that want the

1:05:20

end of the Chevron deference, that want this

1:05:22

outcome in Loperbright, they may come to regret

1:05:25

it if every city is drinking

1:05:27

the waters like Flintson five years. It's

1:05:31

a remarkable moment, Dalia. Just quickly,

1:05:34

how are you thinking about

1:05:36

this decision as we look forward

1:05:38

to Monday? I

1:05:41

mean, I'm thinking about this decision actually in

1:05:43

light of another case that we don't have

1:05:46

time to discuss in depth. But today, the

1:05:48

court made it easier to go after the

1:05:50

homeless who are sleeping in parks

1:05:53

out west. And in Justice

1:05:55

Sotomayor's dissent, she's so careful to

1:05:57

explain why there is homelessness. and

1:05:59

she talks about housing policy, and

1:06:01

she talks about climate change policy.

1:06:04

And she essentially says, this whole

1:06:06

administrative state that's like obscure and

1:06:08

abstract to you, this is the

1:06:10

reason people are sleeping in parks

1:06:12

or part of the reason. And

1:06:14

so I just want to connect

1:06:16

it up to, you know, what

1:06:18

you said about Justice Sotomayor. The

1:06:20

Supreme Court is causing some of

1:06:23

these problems and then turning around

1:06:25

and making it impossible for agencies

1:06:27

to solve them. And it's really,

1:06:29

really important to look at both what's

1:06:31

coming on Monday and I

1:06:33

would say today and think of it

1:06:35

through the lens Gabe is offering up,

1:06:38

which is these are gonna affect real

1:06:40

people's real lives every single day. And

1:06:43

so to think of it as an abstraction, I think

1:06:45

is to make it something that we all say we

1:06:47

have no skin in the game. Every

1:06:49

single one of us, I think Sotomayor

1:06:51

is saying, has skin in the game

1:06:53

because the way our lives are organized

1:06:56

is being scuppered by a court that

1:06:58

is thinking about nothing, I think, other

1:07:00

than making sure that very, very wealthy

1:07:02

people find it easier to

1:07:04

bribe or I guess give gratuities and

1:07:06

that very, very poor people can have

1:07:09

nowhere to sleep. Well,

1:07:12

I think that what you're saying and

1:07:15

you're always so diplomatic about it, Dalia, that's why

1:07:17

we love you so much, is that we need

1:07:19

to take a look after Monday at everything they've

1:07:21

done and then everything we have in the descents

1:07:23

and every, you know, it's rare and it's precious and

1:07:26

they're short of these little breadcrumbs and things that have

1:07:28

been uttered publicly and we need to connect the dots.

1:07:30

They've given us enough and all we have to do

1:07:32

is the work and we'll do that. I

1:07:35

take your point and I appreciate it. No

1:07:37

one's going anywhere. We do have another huge

1:07:39

decision today from the Supreme Court to tell

1:07:41

you about the ruling that prosecutors, the Supreme

1:07:44

Court held this, that prosecutors went too far

1:07:46

in charging a January 6th rider with

1:07:48

obstruction of an official proceeding. We'll tell

1:07:51

you what that means for the prosecutions

1:07:53

of members of the Trump mob

1:07:55

that attacked the US Capitol that day, as

1:07:57

well as the case against the disgraced and

1:07:59

convicted. president himself after a very

1:08:01

short break. Plus, the stakes in the

1:08:04

battle to save American democracy from a

1:08:06

wannabe autocrat are now higher and more

1:08:08

urgent than ever before. Our political panel

1:08:10

will weigh in on what needs to

1:08:12

be done right now, today, in the

1:08:14

wake of last night's first debate, later

1:08:16

in the broadcast. And then White House

1:08:18

continues after a quick break. Don't go

1:08:21

anywhere today. The

1:08:28

Supreme Court today essentially ruling

1:08:30

against the ability of a

1:08:32

democracy to hold people accountable

1:08:35

that threaten it. They used

1:08:37

with the dissenting justices called

1:08:39

textual backflips to find quote

1:08:41

some way anyway to side

1:08:44

with this guy, a January 6th

1:08:46

writer who you see here in

1:08:48

a physical confrontation with police officers

1:08:50

inside the US Capitol on January

1:08:52

6th. Their ruling narrows

1:08:54

an obstruction charge in his case

1:08:56

and could impact the Department of

1:08:58

Justice's reliance on that charge on

1:09:00

that law and its

1:09:02

prosecution of hundreds of other

1:09:04

January 6 defendants, including one

1:09:07

convicted felon who happens to be

1:09:09

ex-president Donald Trump. The three

1:09:12

dissenters were Justice Sonia Sotomayor, Elena

1:09:14

Kagan, and as Andrew Weissman previewed,

1:09:16

Trump appointee Amy Coney Barrett who

1:09:18

writes this quote, the court does

1:09:21

not dispute that Congress's joint session

1:09:23

qualifies as an official proceeding that

1:09:25

writers delayed the proceeding or even

1:09:27

that Fisher's alleged conduct was part

1:09:30

of a successful effort to forcibly

1:09:32

halt the certification of the election

1:09:34

results. Given these premises, the case

1:09:36

that Joseph Fisher can be tried

1:09:39

for obstructing, influencing, or impeding an

1:09:41

official proceeding seems open and shut.

1:09:44

So why does the court hold

1:09:46

otherwise? Because it simply cannot believe

1:09:49

that Congress meant what it said. We're back

1:09:51

with Dahlia Gabe and Andrew. Andrew, that is

1:09:54

that is chilling. So

1:09:57

I think there are a couple things

1:09:59

that are really worth noting because I

1:10:01

think a lot of the reporting is

1:10:05

sort of getting this wrong. One, there's

1:10:07

sort of the Trump take on this,

1:10:09

which is that somehow this shows that

1:10:12

the Department of Justice overreached and was

1:10:14

doing so politically. It is

1:10:16

really important to remember not just that

1:10:18

you have this very,

1:10:20

very well written dissent led

1:10:23

by Amy Coney Barrett, as

1:10:25

you note, a Trump appointee,

1:10:27

but of the 15 trial

1:10:29

judges who heard this exact

1:10:31

issue, 14 of the

1:10:33

15, including three

1:10:36

Trump appointees, agreed with

1:10:38

the government's view of the

1:10:41

obstruction statute. So this was

1:10:43

not some outlier, some off

1:10:45

the wall theory. This was

1:10:48

in fact how everyone had

1:10:50

been interpreting this, including very

1:10:52

conservative judges and

1:10:56

at least one very conservative Supreme

1:10:59

Court justice. The

1:11:01

second is that I think that

1:11:03

although I disagree with the opinion,

1:11:06

the majority opinion, it

1:11:09

is, I do not think

1:11:11

because they sort of carefully

1:11:14

narrowly circumscribed how they

1:11:16

were limiting the obstruction statute. I

1:11:19

don't think it will have any effect

1:11:21

whatsoever on the Trump January 6 indictment.

1:11:23

The real issue there is the one

1:11:25

we're waiting for on Monday, which is

1:11:27

will that ever go to trial? But

1:11:29

I don't think that the obstruction charges

1:11:31

there will be affected by this decision,

1:11:33

nor with respect to the 1400 or

1:11:36

so January

1:11:39

6 cases, this is going

1:11:41

to have a minimal effect

1:11:44

on their cases. Let me give

1:11:46

you one quick example. Mr.

1:11:48

Fisher, who is the lead

1:11:51

plaintiff here, he's charged with

1:11:53

other felonies, including assaulting officers.

1:11:56

Those charges stand and as

1:11:59

Katanji Brown, John, Jackson says in her

1:12:01

concurrence, he may still be able to

1:12:03

be charged under the new reading of

1:12:06

the obstruction statute. So I think that although

1:12:09

I disagree with the decision, I

1:12:11

think it's narrower than anticipated and

1:12:14

it should leave the government with

1:12:16

ample room to continue prosecutions. Gabe,

1:12:20

as someone who's sort of rather new to

1:12:22

trying to discern the tea leaves, I rely

1:12:24

almost 100%, 100%, not almost, 100% on all

1:12:26

of you to make sense of it for

1:12:28

me. I

1:12:33

went back and tried to understand why they took

1:12:35

this case in the first place for all the

1:12:37

reasons Andrew just articulated. Do you have an answer

1:12:39

to that? I

1:12:42

mean, typically, you know, justices

1:12:44

take cases when they believe the lower

1:12:46

court's interpretation was wrong, if

1:12:48

there was a circuit split. This

1:12:51

was sort of a new area of

1:12:54

law or a new use of Section

1:12:56

1512 to see the law to charge in

1:13:02

an obstruction

1:13:04

case related to the capital rights, right?

1:13:06

This is a law that was related

1:13:08

to Sarbanes-Oxley or Enron or other things

1:13:10

that had nothing to do with the

1:13:13

non-peaceful transfer of power. So it was

1:13:15

a bit of a new application. So

1:13:17

I think that, you know, SCOTUS weighing

1:13:20

in, maybe not on first instance, as

1:13:23

was mentioned, you know, 15 trial judges weighed in on

1:13:25

this already. But it was

1:13:27

sort of a new statutory interpretation

1:13:29

case. And sometimes SCOTUS, you know,

1:13:31

likes to take that pitch and

1:13:33

hit it. But

1:13:35

to the other points, you

1:13:38

know, the vast majority of people

1:13:40

who committed crimes, something like 94% of

1:13:42

them on January 6 are still going

1:13:44

to be tried under all the other felonies that they

1:13:46

committed. And I

1:13:48

wouldn't read too much of this into

1:13:50

what's gonna come down on Monday. Monday,

1:13:52

the Trump immunity case does not have

1:13:55

a ton to do with this one

1:13:57

specific section of federal law. that

1:14:00

Monday, you know, that we're going to probably have nine

1:14:02

justices telling us nine different things and who knows what

1:14:04

the lineup is going to be, we'll have to wait

1:14:06

and see, but I wouldn't read too much into what's

1:14:09

going to come down on Monday based on what happened

1:14:11

today. So

1:14:13

Dahlia, this is our last show. This

1:14:15

is our last sort of 30 minutes

1:14:17

before, you know, the next time we

1:14:19

all meet, we will know what the

1:14:21

Supreme Court decided on presidential immunity. How

1:14:23

are you, what are

1:14:26

you expecting? What is sort of the borders

1:14:28

in which we should be prepared to hear

1:14:31

what they've decided on immunity? I

1:14:34

would probably say two things. And

1:14:36

one of them is something you've

1:14:39

heard Andrew and I say for

1:14:41

weeks now on your show, which

1:14:43

is it's really, I think, signaling

1:14:45

something very, very frightening

1:14:47

and sobering that the court will

1:14:49

release this decision, which should have

1:14:51

been an easy, you know,

1:14:54

summary affirmance of the appeals

1:14:57

court decision in the winter that would

1:14:59

have allowed this to already be starting,

1:15:02

that this is happening moments

1:15:04

before they end the term and

1:15:07

take their vacations. That's a

1:15:09

really, I think, a very, very worrying

1:15:11

piece of signaling about how important

1:15:14

this is. And then I just think to

1:15:17

pick up where Gabe left off, you know,

1:15:19

you asked him, why

1:15:21

did the court take this case? I

1:15:23

stupidly, at one point in my career, I

1:15:25

guess I'd call it five months ago, thought

1:15:28

that the court wanted to say something

1:15:30

important and profound about what happened on

1:15:32

January 6 across the street

1:15:34

from where they sit. And I really

1:15:36

thought this case in tandem with the

1:15:38

Anderson case in tandem with the immunity

1:15:40

case was an opportunity for the majority

1:15:43

of the court to say we may

1:15:45

differ on politics, we may

1:15:47

differ on Donald Trump, we may differ

1:15:49

on every single thing, including Chevron. But

1:15:51

what we don't differ on is that

1:15:54

people shouldn't storm the Capitol, assault and

1:15:56

murder people and try to disrupt the

1:15:59

orderly transfer. of power. I really

1:16:01

believed I would see in this

1:16:03

case, or in Anderson, the Colorado

1:16:06

ballot case, language suggesting that the

1:16:08

court across the

1:16:10

partisan lines found that horrific

1:16:13

and untenable and undemocratic. The

1:16:16

recitation in this case in Fisher of what

1:16:18

happened on January 6 was about as bloodless

1:16:20

as it can get. And it's

1:16:22

left again to the dissenters to sketch

1:16:24

what happened on January 6.

1:16:27

And so I worry deeply, deeply about

1:16:29

whatever comes down in the immunity case

1:16:31

on Monday, that the court having had

1:16:33

an opportunity to say, whatever else is

1:16:35

okay, what is not okay, is what

1:16:37

happened on January 6, what is not

1:16:39

okay, is summoning a mob to storm

1:16:42

the Capitol because you don't like the

1:16:44

election results. I didn't see that today.

1:16:46

And I worry deeply, deeply that I'm

1:16:48

not going to see that language on

1:16:50

Monday. I would

1:16:53

like to associate myself with all of

1:16:55

your deep worry. Dalia Lithwick, Gabriele, Andrew

1:16:57

Weissman, the very best of the best.

1:16:59

Thank you so much for having this

1:17:01

conversation with us to be continued on

1:17:03

Monday, I'm sure. One more

1:17:06

note from the Supreme Court today

1:17:08

this afternoon, the court rejected former

1:17:10

Trump advisor Steve Bannon's emergency application

1:17:12

to stay out of jail. It

1:17:15

was an unsigned opinion. Steve Bannon,

1:17:17

who was originally sentenced to four

1:17:19

months in prison in October of

1:17:21

2022, took his case to its

1:17:23

last possible stop, the highest

1:17:26

court in the land, asking the court

1:17:28

to allow him to remain at a

1:17:30

prison while he appeals his conviction of

1:17:32

contempt of Congress, which they have now

1:17:34

officially denied in that unsigned opinion. Steve

1:17:36

Bannon will now have to report to

1:17:38

prison on Monday. When we come

1:17:40

back, the stakes of the election were already sky

1:17:43

high, or even more

1:17:45

so, after last night's debate. And

1:17:47

the question facing Democrats today, what

1:17:49

do you do when the person

1:17:52

you have picked to defend and

1:17:54

protect and preserve democracy in America

1:17:56

from its authoritarian threat is

1:17:59

in your view in your telling not

1:18:01

the strongest messenger. We'll have that conversation

1:18:03

after short break. Two

1:18:12

things are true about the last 18 hours. My god,

1:18:14

is it only 18? Let's make it three things. They

1:18:16

feel like 68 hours. The second

1:18:19

is that the Supreme Court is making

1:18:21

those decisions we've discussed this hour. They've

1:18:24

injected rocket fuel into our ability

1:18:26

to talk about and understand the

1:18:28

stakes of the 2024 election. The

1:18:30

Chevron ruling paves the way for

1:18:32

a second term Donald Trump presidency

1:18:35

to act on the far right's

1:18:37

darkest and deepest fantasies. Things like

1:18:39

never before a wholesale top to

1:18:41

bottom deconstruction of the administrative state,

1:18:43

so as Steve Bannon promised, deconstruction

1:18:45

of our federal government. It's now

1:18:48

on the table. It's something they're

1:18:50

talking about doing. The Fisher

1:18:53

decision ensures that whatever Trump worshipping

1:18:55

entity takes its place will be

1:18:57

institutionally more forgiving to those who

1:18:59

would invade our capital to help

1:19:01

him retain power. Again, the stakes

1:19:03

are going up as we speak.

1:19:06

The third thing that's true about the

1:19:08

last 18 hours is that Democrats in

1:19:10

a way they've never done so before

1:19:12

are openly talking

1:19:14

to reporters like myself and others

1:19:17

about whether President Joe Biden represents

1:19:19

their best foot forward to defeat

1:19:21

Trump and Trumpism and everything that

1:19:24

he threatens. There's one thing, though,

1:19:26

that has not changed, not in

1:19:29

the last 18 hours or 18

1:19:31

months, and that is the cold,

1:19:33

hard, undeniable truth that of the

1:19:36

choices we face for

1:19:38

November, one candidate instigated a violent

1:19:40

insurrection on our democracy. The other

1:19:42

did not. He sought to protect

1:19:44

the democracy. That, folks, is the

1:19:46

choice we have in November. Joining

1:19:49

our conversation, former Republican congressman, MSNBC

1:19:51

political analyst David Jolly, also joining

1:19:53

us, MSNBC political analyst, host of

1:19:55

the Bulwark podcast, former spokesperson for

1:19:57

the RNC. Tim Miller, and professor

1:19:59

of history at NYU, author of

1:20:01

Strongman, Mussolini to the Present, Ruth

1:20:03

Ben-Giat is here. David Jolly, I've

1:20:06

tried to set this up and

1:20:08

then get out of the way.

1:20:10

Your thoughts today? I

1:20:14

think last night changed everything. I

1:20:17

think going into yesterday, there was

1:20:19

a sustaining argument that

1:20:21

this race wasn't about age, it was about

1:20:23

ideology, it wasn't about age, it was about

1:20:25

leadership, it wasn't about age, it was about

1:20:28

fitness. Donald Trump didn't tell

1:20:30

us to inject bleach into our veins because he

1:20:32

was old, he did it because he's stupid. He

1:20:34

didn't get convicted because of his age, he got

1:20:36

convicted for fraud. He didn't

1:20:38

abandon NATO because of his age, he

1:20:41

abandoned NATO because of a lack of

1:20:43

leadership. But last night

1:20:45

made this race about age, specifically about

1:20:47

Joe Biden's age. And I think

1:20:49

where Democrats today from Barack

1:20:52

Obama on down are making the

1:20:54

contrast argument in response to what

1:20:56

we saw last night. They

1:20:58

are fundamentally misreading the room. The

1:21:02

American voters who are shocked by last night

1:21:04

aren't shocked by the contrast. Many of them

1:21:06

miss the contrast. Many people didn't

1:21:08

even actually hear what was said between the

1:21:10

candidates. They were shocked and saddened

1:21:13

by what they saw of their

1:21:15

president. And I think

1:21:17

that's the coda to all of

1:21:19

this, that what

1:21:21

they saw last night raised concern not about

1:21:24

Democratic nominee Joe Biden, but about

1:21:26

their president, about our president. We

1:21:28

haven't had a national conversation around

1:21:31

a president's age since Ronald

1:21:33

Reagan's second term, but we're having

1:21:35

it now. And so

1:21:37

the contrast arguments that Democrats are making

1:21:40

today are important. Perhaps it's the only

1:21:42

argument available to them. But

1:21:45

the shock and sadness that many Americans are

1:21:47

feeling is they don't know how to reconcile

1:21:49

this issue now of Joe Biden's age. He's

1:21:52

not asking to serve until next January. He's

1:21:54

asking to serve until January of 2029. And

1:21:58

a lot of Americans are now asking them. themselves. Is

1:22:01

that the right decision? Is he

1:22:03

the right person for November? Bill

1:22:06

Biden has done something nobody else did.

1:22:08

He stopped Donald Trump. It's

1:22:10

a remarkable service to the country. He has

1:22:13

had an incredible first term. He's making the

1:22:15

case for a second term. But last night,

1:22:18

what landed in people's lap was the

1:22:20

president's age, not his ideology, not

1:22:22

his policies. Perhaps what we saw

1:22:25

in North Carolina today, if replicated, can

1:22:27

address that. He can hit it head

1:22:29

on. If he

1:22:31

is the candidate, that's how Democrats

1:22:33

survive the next four months.

1:22:35

The contrast argument is already

1:22:37

in place. The American voters

1:22:40

now, at least many of them, are wrestling

1:22:42

with their own president's age as a

1:22:44

national question, not as a political question.

1:22:47

And that's where Democrats, I think, have

1:22:50

to address that more head on than they are

1:22:52

actually doing today. Tim

1:22:55

Miller. Well,

1:22:57

I appreciate that Representative Jolly said that, because I think

1:22:59

that there have been a lot of people that are

1:23:02

that believe that privately, but haven't been saying it publicly.

1:23:04

I would add to what he said that

1:23:07

Joe Biden, in addition to doing the duties

1:23:09

of president, in order to save our democracy,

1:23:11

because of the stakes that you just laid

1:23:13

out, needs to be

1:23:15

able to deliver a coherent

1:23:17

argument that reaches people

1:23:20

about why Donald Trump is so dangerous.

1:23:23

And and as for the

1:23:25

rally today, that's nice. I'm happy that

1:23:27

Joe Biden had a good rally this

1:23:30

afternoon. But the people that are going

1:23:32

to see that, that is reassuring Democratic

1:23:34

partisans that pay attention to politics,

1:23:36

that already know the stakes, that watch the

1:23:38

show, that understand the threat. The

1:23:41

people that watched last night, the 50 million

1:23:43

that saw it live and the 50 plus

1:23:46

million that are going to see little clips

1:23:48

on TikTok and Instagram who don't pay that

1:23:50

close of attention. They were

1:23:52

not given anything to work with by

1:23:55

Joe Biden last night. He did not

1:23:57

deliver a single coherent argument against the.

1:23:59

most unfit person ever to run for

1:24:02

any office in this country, Donald

1:24:04

Trump. There are plenty of things that he

1:24:06

could have attacked Donald Trump on, unlimited. We

1:24:09

talk about them here all the time. He wasn't up

1:24:11

for doing it. And so when

1:24:14

I see the messages from Barack Obama and Bill

1:24:16

Clinton and everybody today, they bear

1:24:19

no resemblance to the conversations that

1:24:21

I'm having with Democratic elected officials

1:24:24

who are in office now. None

1:24:26

of them think that just Joe Biden is a

1:24:28

nice man and Donald Trump is a bad man

1:24:30

is good enough. It's true. We

1:24:33

all know it's true. I love Joe Biden. I think

1:24:35

he's been a good president. But

1:24:37

if we're gonna save this democracy, we've got to do better

1:24:39

than Joe Biden is a good man and Donald Trump's a

1:24:41

bad man. We've got

1:24:43

to be able to convince the voters

1:24:45

that have not yet been convinced that

1:24:48

Donald Trump represents an existential threat to this

1:24:50

country and that Joe Biden is a better

1:24:52

bet. And if Joe Biden isn't capable of

1:24:55

making that argument, then we

1:24:57

have time, we have about a month to find somebody else who

1:24:59

can. And if he is

1:25:01

capable of making it, then what we saw in rally

1:25:03

today, we need to see over and over and over

1:25:06

again in our face, not the same campaign he's been

1:25:08

running, more. He needs to prove

1:25:10

it to people. And he's had

1:25:12

a serious conversation with his advisor about how we can

1:25:14

prove it to people. Because otherwise,

1:25:16

this is just a reality check. I know some people

1:25:18

aren't gonna be happy to hear this, but like we

1:25:21

were losing, Joe Biden was losing before the

1:25:23

debate last night. So you

1:25:26

can not believe the polls if you want, but

1:25:28

in the same polls that Joe Biden is losing

1:25:30

in Pennsylvania, Bob Casey, the Democrat is winning. In

1:25:33

the same polls he's losing in Wisconsin, Tammy Baldwin is

1:25:35

winning. Why is that? It's not because the

1:25:37

polls are rigged. It's because there's a certain set of

1:25:39

voters that don't know if Joe Biden's up for it.

1:25:42

The debate last night was his opportunity to reassure them

1:25:44

he didn't do it. So he's got to figure out

1:25:46

how to do it now, or we've got

1:25:48

to figure out a plan B. It

1:25:52

takes some courage

1:25:55

to tell the truth about this

1:25:57

moment. It is... something

1:26:00

I'm grateful to both of you for doing.

1:26:02

I want to bring Ruth in

1:26:04

on all of this. I have to sneak in a

1:26:06

quick break first. Please, all of you stay with us.

1:26:08

We'll continue this conversation on the other side. David,

1:26:17

Tim and Ruth are back with us. Ruth, I want to

1:26:19

turn the floor over to you. I want to say that

1:26:21

what David and Tim

1:26:23

are saying is probably going to agitate

1:26:25

a lot of our viewers and upset

1:26:28

them. But our viewers should know that

1:26:30

people inside and outside, Biden, Zidamo's

1:26:33

circle, people who describe themselves as, quote,

1:26:35

loving him, three of them, said

1:26:38

the very same thing, had the

1:26:41

same analysis. So I

1:26:43

invite yours. And I'd love your thoughts

1:26:45

about what we do next. I

1:26:50

come at this from a bit of a different perspective.

1:26:52

I study professional liars who

1:26:54

are very charming. They're amazing

1:26:57

performers. And they turn

1:27:00

political events into spectacles

1:27:02

for authoritarian purposes. Now,

1:27:04

if we think about this, quote,

1:27:06

debate, a real debate

1:27:08

in a democracy is supposed to provide

1:27:11

voters with accurate information so they can

1:27:13

make a choice. Trump

1:27:15

came there for a totally different purpose,

1:27:17

an authoritarian purpose to spew as much

1:27:20

propaganda, as many lies as possible. And

1:27:22

he got a lot in. So he

1:27:24

could indoctrinate people to his fake reality.

1:27:28

And so Biden was placed in

1:27:30

a very difficult position because there

1:27:32

was no live fact checking. And

1:27:34

we know from studying propaganda, you've

1:27:36

got to have instant refutation. And

1:27:39

so, number one, it's really kind of

1:27:41

sad that because Trump lied

1:27:43

with such vigor, with such dynamism, he's

1:27:45

hailed as the winner. The other

1:27:48

thing is, and you can substitute X for

1:27:50

Biden if you have a favorite alternate

1:27:53

Democrat, that person would have

1:27:55

been stuck refuting

1:27:58

all of Trump's lies. the

1:28:00

whole time because of the lack of live

1:28:02

fact checking from moderators and thus wouldn't have

1:28:04

been able to make his or her case

1:28:07

to the American public about the agenda. And

1:28:09

Trump knows all that. And so in a

1:28:11

way this debate, I'm not glossing

1:28:13

over the terrible performance of

1:28:15

Biden and lack of energy, but it's

1:28:17

90 minutes and it's a

1:28:20

symptom of how we

1:28:22

are a degraded democracy and

1:28:24

we're acting as though our political

1:28:26

rituals around this election are proceeding

1:28:29

normally, but this quote

1:28:31

debate shows that one party

1:28:33

is using these events for

1:28:36

a completely authoritarian purpose. Ruth,

1:28:40

I mean, I wish we'd had this conversation

1:28:42

two hours ago and that the whole two

1:28:44

hours were framed around this. I think that's

1:28:46

everything. But I guess my questions then are,

1:28:48

you know, one, it was Biden's idea. It

1:28:50

was his proposal and two, the rules are

1:28:52

something he agreed to is the

1:28:54

problem that we still in year nine of

1:28:56

trying to confront Trump and Trumpism don't have

1:28:59

folks like you at the table for every

1:29:01

campaign meeting, at the table for every network

1:29:03

TV meeting, at the table for every debate

1:29:05

planning meeting. Is it, are we still not,

1:29:08

have we still not made the turn to

1:29:10

what we're actually staring down the barrel at

1:29:12

with, which is an authoritarian leader? To some

1:29:16

extent, because, you

1:29:18

know, there's lots of capable

1:29:20

specialists and disinformation propaganda. And

1:29:22

what we know is that

1:29:24

instant live real time refutation

1:29:26

of lies is what matters.

1:29:29

After the fact, I mean, Daniel Dale of

1:29:31

CNN did an amazing job fact checking, but

1:29:34

it was in a separate venue. And

1:29:36

that's not available also to Fox viewers.

1:29:39

So there were there were mistakes made in

1:29:41

planning this event. And there's also

1:29:43

perhaps a hubris, and this is what my

1:29:46

colleagues on the segment are getting at, of

1:29:49

President Biden in insisting

1:29:51

on that these rules would

1:29:53

be okay. So it's a learning moment,

1:29:55

but it's also a moment to wake

1:29:58

up and realize what you're dealing

1:30:00

with. with because, again, substitute anybody

1:30:03

and they would have been

1:30:05

occupied refuting Trump's lies and

1:30:07

that was by design. He

1:30:09

was there to indoctrinate people. He was

1:30:11

not there to educate the public. So

1:30:13

with somebody like that, a debate is

1:30:15

just a bad idea and it shouldn't

1:30:18

be called a debate. So our whole

1:30:20

paradigm has to shift, in my opinion,

1:30:22

with somebody like Trump and the GOP,

1:30:24

which has become an autocratic party. I

1:30:27

think that's exactly right. And I think, look, as

1:30:31

a network, we confronted this when

1:30:33

Ronald McDaniel was briefly brought on.

1:30:35

But the problem is that

1:30:38

decisions are made without this lens.

1:30:40

We're not trying to show all

1:30:42

sides of the policy divide in

1:30:44

America. One party is fundamentally

1:30:46

shifting toward, in terms of its numbers,

1:30:48

the largest ascendant authoritarian movement

1:30:50

on the planet. And we haven't made the

1:30:52

pivot to cover it as what it is.

1:30:55

I hope this is

1:30:57

a conversation we can continue. I appreciate all three

1:30:59

of you so much. David Jelley, Tim Miller,

1:31:01

and Ruth Bankiat. Thank you so much for spending

1:31:03

time with us today. Another break for

1:31:06

us. We'll be right back. A

1:31:12

reminder for all of us democracy

1:31:14

hawks coming up on Monday. Finally,

1:31:16

the United States Supreme Court will

1:31:18

issue its ruling on whether Donald

1:31:20

Trump can be criminally prosecuted for

1:31:22

the actions he took while in

1:31:24

office, the crimes he's actually been

1:31:26

charged with by Jack Smith, or

1:31:29

is he immune from prosecution? Is

1:31:31

he actually legally above the law?

1:31:33

We'll get that ruling from the

1:31:36

Supreme Court on Monday morning. We

1:31:38

want to invite you to sign up now

1:31:40

for our Deadline Legal Newsletter. On that newsletter,

1:31:43

you'll get analysis from our own Jordan Rubin

1:31:45

on the court's decisions and all the other

1:31:47

legal stories we cover here on the broadcast.

1:31:49

Just scan the QR code right there on

1:31:51

your screen. Monday will be another very big

1:31:53

day. We'll be here. We'll get through it

1:31:56

together. Another break for us. We'll be right

1:31:58

back. Thank

1:32:04

you so much for letting us into your

1:32:06

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