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That's 15% off at

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burrow.com/Acast. This

0:34

is Ryan Grimm. Welcome to Deconstructed.

0:37

I wanted to start today with a series of thank

0:39

yous and some bad news. You've

0:41

probably noticed that the journalism industry seems

0:43

to be imploding everywhere. You're right. And

0:46

this week, it hit the intercept too.

0:49

And a ton of great journalists got laid

0:51

off. I thank every one of them for

0:53

everything they've given us. One

0:55

of those was a guy whose name you've

0:57

heard in the credits of this podcast, Jose

0:59

Olivares, and we'll miss him badly. He's

1:02

a fantastic producer, a

1:04

huge thank you to Jose. And here's hoping

1:06

we get to work together one day soon.

1:09

The other thank you, and this might sound

1:11

counter intuitive right now, is to all

1:13

of the listeners and readers who've become paying members

1:15

of the intercept over the years. If

1:18

we didn't have such a robust membership program

1:20

with tens of thousands of small donors, I

1:22

can quite honestly tell you we'd be shutting

1:24

down right now. We'd be gone,

1:26

and the world I think would be worse off

1:29

for it. If you're one

1:31

of those current donors, our sincerest thank

1:33

you, and we promise we're going

1:35

to work even harder to earn your continuing

1:37

support. If you're not yet one of

1:39

those donors, but have thought about becoming one, please

1:42

do and know that it really does matter. You

1:45

can go to the intercept.com/give

1:47

to become a member or

1:49

for something bigger, please email

1:51

our fundraising team at philanthropy

1:53

at the intercept.com. You

1:55

can also as always get me

1:57

at ryan.grim at the intercept.com. Speaking

2:00

of fundraising, I'll be making a short West

2:02

Coast fundraising swing in two weeks and as

2:04

part of that, I'll be doing a reading

2:06

slash talk about my new book, The Squad,

2:08

AOC, and the Hope of a Political Revolution.

2:11

That'll be on Sunday, March 3rd at 2

2:13

p.m. at Book Passage in the Ferry Building

2:16

in San Francisco. It's free, but we'll

2:18

hit you up for a donation if you come, so

2:20

be warned. Today meanwhile,

2:22

we really have a good show. I'm going

2:24

to be joined by journalist Alan Nairn, who

2:26

has been covering the abuses of the Indonesian

2:29

military and its American sponsors for decades now,

2:31

including with a number of investigative pieces

2:33

that The Intercept won most recently this

2:35

week. I don't want to spoil

2:38

the conversation, so all I'll note up front

2:40

is that Indonesia had what it tried to

2:42

call presidential elections this week, and

2:44

the result was equal parts to be

2:46

expected and shocking to the conscience. Here's

2:50

my conversation with Alan Nairn. Alan,

2:53

welcome to Deconstructed. Thanks.

2:56

Good to be with you. I'm really

2:58

excited to have you on to talk about

3:00

this election and also the history leading up

3:02

to it. First of all, tell

3:04

everybody where you're joining us from, what time it

3:06

is, and what the current situation

3:09

is. I'm in

3:11

Jakarta, Indonesia. It's

3:13

9 p.m. And

3:15

General Prabolo, the

3:18

worst of the massacre generals and

3:21

the closest U.S. protege of

3:23

the Indonesian military, has

3:26

just been selected as

3:30

president with the

3:32

full support of state

3:35

power of the current government. It's

3:38

the beginning of a whole new era. After

3:41

General Suharto, the U.S.-backed dictator,

3:44

fell in 1998, there

3:47

was hope that Indonesia could

3:50

move to a kind of

3:52

democracy. And indeed,

3:55

there was a series of elected

3:58

presidents. The last

4:00

elected president, President Jokowi, who

4:03

will be in office until October, he's

4:06

decided to turn the country

4:08

back toward the Suharto era. And

4:11

this general, Prabhoa, who

4:14

he just helped install, in

4:16

fact, is Suharto's son-in-law. So

4:19

people are now deciding

4:21

how to deal with that. Just

4:23

today, I was at a demonstration. It's

4:26

called the Aksi Kamisan every Thursday. Survivors

4:29

of the massacres and

4:32

their friends and relatives

4:35

gather in front of the palace to

4:38

protest, and military

4:40

intelligence was all over. And

4:43

they were harassing people

4:45

afterwards. And those

4:47

there all agreed

4:49

that this is going to

4:52

get worse once General Prabhoa

4:54

comes in. Did they harass

4:56

you at all? I'm sure you're on

4:58

their radar. At the demonstration?

5:01

Apparently, two of them

5:04

did try to detain me, but

5:06

the activists got between us. They

5:09

put me in the car. After

5:11

a while of apparently being followed, we

5:13

were able to get away. I

5:15

noticed that you gagged a little bit on

5:17

the word elected, and I want to get

5:19

back to that in a moment. But

5:22

first, for an American audience that

5:24

is fairly well-educated, but the

5:27

history of Indonesia and Indonesian politics

5:29

is often off

5:32

the center stage, even despite

5:35

its central role in

5:38

our CIA's history, our State Department's history,

5:40

our American imperial history. Can

5:42

you go back a little bit? Start with

5:44

the Non-Aligned Movement. What was the Non-Aligned Movement?

5:47

What was Indonesia's role in it? How

5:49

did that shape how the country's

5:51

history unfolded and its relationship with the

5:54

U.S. unfolded? Well, President

5:56

Sukarno, who was the founding

5:58

president of Indonesia, and the U.S. was

6:00

the after they won independence from the

6:02

Dutch colonialists in the 40s, Sukarno

6:06

was the main moving

6:08

force behind the Not Aligned

6:10

Movement, which basically

6:12

stressed the

6:15

aspiration of independence for what were

6:17

then called Third World nations.

6:20

The idea was they would

6:22

stand between the Soviet

6:24

bloc and the United States.

6:27

Right, and Third World wasn't a pejorative at the time.

6:30

There's these two blocs, these

6:33

superpowers, and then there's a Third One. Well,

6:35

the world was a broader

6:37

term, referring mainly

6:39

to poor and

6:41

still attempting, developing and

6:43

attempting to develop countries, but

6:45

many of them, perhaps a majority at

6:48

a certain time, of the countries in

6:51

what was called the Third World were

6:53

either in or sympathetic to the Not Aligned

6:55

Movement. And

6:58

Sukarno was really the

7:00

key mover in that.

7:03

And he, Sukarno, a

7:06

civilian, was overthrown by

7:09

the Indonesian army in

7:11

a coup in 1965. That

7:15

Indonesian army was armed, trained,

7:17

and supplied by the United

7:19

States. And General

7:21

Suharto, who took over during

7:24

the coup, he, with

7:26

his army, immediately launched one

7:29

of the largest trawters

7:31

in the world history to consolidate their

7:33

power. They killed anywhere from

7:35

400,000 to a million civilians across

7:39

the country. Some estimates go higher.

7:42

And they did that with explicit US support.

7:45

The CIA supplied a death list of 5,000

7:47

names, people

7:49

that they wanted to target. And

7:51

that did indeed consolidate their power.

7:53

And after that, the army worked hand

7:56

in glove with the US, including

7:59

in the United States. 1975

8:02

when they invaded East

8:04

Timor, the small neighboring nation

8:07

of East Timor. General Suharto

8:10

met face to face with

8:12

President Ford and Henry Kissinger to get their

8:14

permission, and he got it. They

8:17

gave him weapons. They invaded

8:19

East Timor, and over

8:21

the course of their occupation, they

8:24

killed a third of the population, which

8:27

in proportional terms was the most intensive

8:29

slaughter since the Nazis. And

8:31

so how did the Indonesian people eventually

8:34

rally and restore or

8:37

move on a path back toward

8:39

democracy? Well, General

8:41

Suharto lasted until 1998

8:45

when he was finally overthrown by

8:47

a street uprising. And

8:50

one of the factors in that uprising

8:53

was a massacre that took place in 1991

8:56

in occupied East

8:58

Timor, November 12, 1991, the Santa

9:01

Cruz massacre. And

9:03

I happened to be there, happened

9:05

to survive that massacre. You and

9:07

Amy Goodman and other journalists, right?

9:09

Yes. I was there with

9:12

Amy Goodman and Max Stahl

9:14

in the UK was there.

9:18

And he filmed from

9:21

a distance what happened. A

9:23

crowd had gathered outside the Santa Cruz

9:25

cemetery. They were commemorating the death

9:27

of a young man who had been killed by the army

9:29

10 days before. And

9:32

then the army marched on the crowd. I

9:35

thought if they saw there were outside

9:38

witnesses there, maybe we could stop them. So

9:41

we went to the front of the crowd, but

9:43

that didn't stop them. They were carrying their USM

9:46

16s. They made

9:48

me, they fractured my skull with the rifle

9:50

butts. And then they opened

9:52

fire on the crowd from very

9:54

close range. The closest people were 10 feet

9:56

away from them. They killed

9:58

at least 271. one, as civilians

10:00

on that day. But

10:02

we survived and were

10:05

able to report this to the outside world.

10:08

And then back in the US, Mobilized

10:10

Grassroots Support helped

10:12

to found a group called the East Timor Action Network.

10:15

And over the years we were successful

10:18

in getting Congress to

10:20

pressure the executive branch and

10:23

to all the cut

10:25

off all US military aid to Indonesia

10:28

and General Suharto. And

10:30

later Suharto's security chief

10:33

Admiral Sudomo told me that

10:35

that arms cut off was pivotal

10:37

in Suharto's downfall. Because

10:40

as the Indonesian population

10:42

took to the streets in

10:45

1998 in this mass uprising,

10:48

according to Sudomo, Suharto's

10:50

security chief, the troops were

10:52

reluctant to open fire on the crowds as quickly

10:55

as they should have, because they were

10:57

afraid that if that happened, in his

10:59

words, it would be another Santa Cruz, meaning they

11:02

would lose all the US aid since

11:04

practically all the military aid had already been

11:06

cut off by Congress. And

11:08

that hesitation proved fatal for the Suharto

11:11

regime, because people saw to

11:13

their surprise that they could come

11:15

down to the streets and demonstrate

11:17

and face the soldiers and not

11:20

necessarily be killed

11:22

till more and more people came out. It

11:25

became an

11:27

overwhelming mass force in the

11:29

streets. And then

11:32

finally, first outside

11:34

a university called Trisakti, a

11:37

few soldiers did open fire, a

11:39

few people were killed. And

11:42

because by that point, people had

11:44

grown accustomed to demonstrating for

11:47

weeks without being killed, when it

11:49

finally happened at Trisakti and in

11:51

a couple of other places, it

11:53

was just a mass explosion of

11:55

outrage. And within

11:57

days, Suharto had... Had

12:00

swollen I just want to

12:02

underline that for a second because we

12:04

often talk about US military aid

12:08

In the abstract and we'll say all right

12:10

this this massacre happened this slaughter happened It

12:13

was done with US weapons and the

12:15

kind of implicit response sometimes is yes But

12:17

that that government is bad and they would

12:20

have done that anyway You can withdraw some

12:22

US military support but that you're not going

12:24

to change the nature of evil in the

12:26

world And what you're

12:28

saying is actually no like the US

12:31

military aid was a

12:34

necessary and essential function necessary

12:37

and essential piece of Suhart

12:40

of Suhartos ability condition

12:44

Yeah, and pulling that away undermined him

12:46

fatally. Yes, that's it. That's a very

12:48

good point Another

12:51

argument that sometimes made as well if we

12:53

don't give it somebody else will give it

12:55

in a large number of the cases

12:58

I haven't gone through it systematically, but I would

13:00

guess for the country's unfamiliar with Maybe

13:03

close to a majority of the cases the

13:06

US aid to oppressive

13:08

militaries and intelligence services

13:11

at a minimum increases

13:14

their repression and Sometimes

13:17

as you just mentioned is

13:19

the thing that enables the regime

13:22

that brought those forces into existence that

13:24

enables it to survive and Pulling

13:27

that aid does at a minimum

13:30

can at a minimum be expected to

13:32

decrease the repression and often

13:37

With still larger impact it

13:40

can endanger the survival of

13:42

that repressive regime That is being

13:44

artificially propped up by the US

13:46

in the first place and that's

13:48

exactly what happened with

13:50

General Suharto, but what Indonesia is

13:53

Is faced with now is

13:56

that Suharto's son-in-law General

13:58

Prabhuo? The worst

14:01

of all the massacre generals in Indonesia, and that

14:03

is saying a lot, because

14:06

as we just described, these are

14:08

two of the epic slaughters of the 20th century. First

14:11

the consolidation of power by killing half

14:13

a million to a million civilians, and

14:16

then the invasion of Timor where they killed a

14:18

third of the population. And

14:21

this man is the worst of

14:23

the generals, and now he is set to

14:25

become the next president of

14:28

Indonesia. And he is also the

14:30

general closest to the US. He

14:33

described himself to me as the

14:35

American's fair-haired boy. And

14:37

yeah, you had this fascinating interview with

14:39

him that you wrote about for us

14:41

again recently at the Intercept where

14:44

he talked openly about what

14:46

he saw as the PR problems related to the Santa

14:49

Cruz massacre and what his

14:51

ambitions were for the future. Talk a little

14:53

bit about how he understood

14:56

his role in those atrocities, what

14:58

went wrong and what he could do right in

15:00

the future. And wrong is

15:02

that we're using not in a moral term, but kind

15:04

of in a pragmatic from his

15:07

perspective term. Yeah, in terms of the

15:09

Santa Cruz massacre, he was not involved in that one.

15:11

That was not one of his. He

15:13

did many other massacres in Timor. For

15:16

example, at Carras on

15:18

Mount Bileu, he commanded

15:20

a massacre where many hundreds were

15:23

killed. And he did

15:26

similar operations, including political assassinations

15:28

in Aceh and West Papua.

15:31

In West Papua in one case, he

15:34

brought in a helicopter disguised as a

15:36

Red Cross helicopter, and

15:39

as people approached, they machine-gunned them

15:42

from the air. What he said

15:44

about Santa Cruz, Santa Cruz massacre

15:46

was, he said that was an

15:48

imbecilic operation. And he said

15:51

it was imbecilic because they did it in

15:53

front of me and the other surviving outside

15:56

witnesses. And he said,

15:58

you don't do that. in front

16:00

of the foreign press. You don't do

16:02

that in the capital city. You do

16:04

that in an isolated village where no

16:06

one will ever know. And

16:10

he did not admit to

16:13

the massacres, his own massacres. But

16:16

in some cases, he all

16:18

but admitted to. For example,

16:21

in 98, when the mass demonstrations

16:25

had Suharto in danger, General

16:27

Pervoa staged a series

16:29

of kidnappings of pro-democracy

16:32

activists. He kidnapped

16:34

24 activists and

16:37

he disappeared 13 of them. They've never

16:39

been heard from since. Their bodies have

16:42

never been found. He

16:44

also staged a series of what

16:46

are known as the anti-Chinese riots,

16:49

where his men, his

16:51

special forces, troops, plainclothes

16:54

and their operatives did

16:57

arson, burning, shootings,

16:59

mass rapes, aimed mainly

17:01

at the ethnic Chinese population.

17:05

And when I asked him about

17:08

various military crimes that were committed

17:10

in 98, he blamed a number of

17:12

them on General Wairanto, another

17:14

general who was his chief rival.

17:17

But when I asked him about the

17:19

anti-Chinese riots, he did not. He did

17:21

not attempt to blame Wairanto. And he

17:23

spoke of them with something like pride,

17:26

basically saying that was a very professional

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20:02

is he not in prison? And

20:04

how did his opponent go from

20:07

beating him and preventing him from taking

20:09

office to now supporting

20:12

him and ushering him into office?

20:14

How did we wind up 25 years later

20:16

where we are tonight? Well, he

20:18

should be in prison. He should

20:20

be tried for war crimes and

20:23

crimes against humanity along with his

20:25

US sponsors. And in

20:27

fact, in the early years of the

20:29

Jokowi administration, President Jokowi, the incumbent of

20:32

the civilian, Jokowi

20:34

discussed with his staff putting General

20:36

Pobolo and some of the other massacre

20:39

generals like General Hueranto and General

20:41

Hendro Priono on trial. I

20:44

discussed this with some

20:47

of Jokowi's staff once in a

20:49

meeting at the palace. At

20:52

the time I was publicly calling for them

20:54

to all be tried along with their US

20:56

sponsors. And what his

20:58

staff said when we discussed it at the palace

21:00

essentially was, well, yes, this

21:03

is necessary and we're working on it. But

21:05

it's dangerous. We have to proceed

21:08

slowly. It will take time. So

21:11

internally, his administration in fact

21:13

was working on or

21:17

heavily considering a war

21:19

crimes tribunal for Pobolo and the

21:21

other generals. And when he

21:23

ran for president, first in 2014 and

21:25

then 2019, and defeated Pobolo, one of the

21:31

things he said was that we in

21:33

Indonesia cannot return to dictatorship.

21:36

He didn't speak openly about the war

21:39

crimes trial, but the insinuation

21:41

that many took was that he was in

21:43

favor of that. And in

21:45

fact, at that time, Jokowi as he was

21:48

running against General Pobolo had the support of

21:51

many human rights advocates and

21:53

massacre survivors. And

21:57

as I mentioned, in his first years, they were

21:59

internally. discussed bringing

22:02

the generals to trial.

22:05

But all through his time in

22:08

office, he was constantly

22:10

under pressure from the army and

22:12

from General Praboa, who was by

22:14

that time retired. For

22:16

example, at one point the

22:19

Jokowi administration convened

22:21

a forum called the Stimposium where

22:24

survivors of the 1965

22:26

slaughter that Suharto with

22:28

US backing did after they did

22:31

the coup as they were consolidating

22:33

power, survivors at the

22:36

symposium were allowed to come and

22:38

speak publicly about what had happened

22:40

to them and what had happened

22:42

to their families, their loved ones who had been

22:44

murdered. And this was a real

22:47

breakthrough in the

22:51

public speech of

22:54

Indonesia, and the army was

22:56

just outraged. There

22:58

was no talk at the symposium, trials

23:00

of the generals, or even

23:02

of stopping the practice of killing

23:05

civilians, which continues to this day

23:08

in West Papua, which is in the

23:10

eastern part of the Indonesian

23:12

archipelago, an area which

23:14

is under de facto occupation and

23:17

where Freeport-Macmorran, the US mining

23:19

giant, is

23:22

stripping the mountains

23:24

and turning the

23:26

rivers green with their pollution. There

23:29

they continue to kill civilians.

23:31

But there was no discussion of that ongoing

23:34

practice of killing civilians. There was

23:36

just a recollection of

23:40

and reflection on the 1965

23:43

mass killing. And the

23:46

army was outraged. Jokowi had

23:48

to go to army headquarters

23:50

and bow down before the

23:53

generals, and he actually

23:55

made a speech to them where

23:58

he made what on his face was a non- a

24:00

sensical statement. He said,

24:02

I will never apologize to the

24:04

PKI, meaning the

24:06

Indonesian Communist Party. But

24:09

the Indonesian Communist Party no longer

24:11

existed. It had ceased

24:13

to exist decades before, as

24:16

its remnants were utterly annihilated

24:19

in that 1965 slaughter. And

24:23

the term PKI, Indonesian Communist

24:25

Party, only lived on because

24:28

it was the catch-all term that

24:30

the army used to refer to

24:32

those dissidents who it hadn't yet

24:36

killed. So Jokowi went

24:38

and humbled himself before the soldiers,

24:40

but that didn't work.

24:42

That didn't calm them down.

24:46

After that, in response to

24:48

that symposium, there was a street

24:51

movement which turned to

24:53

violence. I actually wrote about it in The

24:55

Intercept in 2017. That movement operated on

25:02

a religious pretext, but behind

25:04

the scenes it was being pushed by the

25:06

army, particularly the generals

25:08

loyal to General Prabhoel.

25:11

And there was a series of events

25:13

like this which really shook President

25:16

Jokowi. And then in

25:18

2019, when he was running and defeated Prabhoel, right

25:24

after the vote, the Prabhoel forces

25:27

staged yet another street

25:30

riot with burning and looting.

25:33

And at that point, Jokowi basically said,

25:35

well, enough. I can't take this anymore.

25:38

He had his people reach out to General

25:40

Prabhoel to try to bring

25:42

him inside the tent, and

25:44

he offered him the job of Minister of Defense.

25:48

Prabhoel accepted. He came

25:51

inside shortly thereafter. And

25:54

once inside, immediately, as Jokowi

25:57

had hoped, the threat of

25:59

coups, the riots, all evaporated

26:02

instantly. And Jacoé

26:04

and Prabho started

26:07

to grow close, because

26:09

Jacoé, who had slowly

26:12

been ramping up repression during

26:15

his time in

26:18

office, particularly against labor

26:20

rights and all

26:22

series of other things, he

26:24

was looking for a way to extend his

26:26

own term. He was

26:28

term limited to two terms as the system works

26:31

in the United States. So

26:33

for this election, he was

26:35

looking for a successor

26:37

who would work with him. And

26:40

he settled on General Prabho, who by

26:42

that time was his defense minister, who

26:45

had come in and with Jacoé continued

26:48

the policy of army killings

26:50

of civilians in

26:52

West Papua. And Jacoé even

26:55

lent General Prabho his own son,

26:58

Gibran, as his running mate.

27:01

And he did that, even

27:03

though the president's son

27:05

was legally underage, as

27:08

in the US, there's a minimum age

27:10

requirement. In Indonesia it's 40,

27:13

the son is 36. But

27:15

he rammed approval for it through

27:18

the Supreme Court, where

27:20

the president's brother-in-law was at that time

27:23

the Chief Justice and through

27:25

the electoral commission, both of

27:27

those actions by the electoral

27:30

commission, the Supreme Court were

27:32

later ruled by other official oversight bodies

27:34

to be unethical, but it made no

27:36

difference. Because Jacoé had made

27:38

his deal with General Prabho, and

27:41

he, the president, was really the main

27:43

force behind the Prabho

27:45

campaign that just included. And

27:48

the whole state apparatus was

27:51

mobilized to put General Prabho

27:53

in power. And

27:55

this is especially meaningful

27:58

and ominous for Indonesia. Indonesia's

28:01

population of poor

28:04

people and what are known

28:06

as Rakyapiaza, regular people, who

28:09

to a large extent live at

28:11

the mercy of the Aparat, the army

28:14

and the police. And the

28:16

army and the police were going around

28:18

directly ordering people to vote for General

28:20

Poboa. And at the same

28:22

time, the social welfare

28:24

agencies, which hand out

28:27

bags of rice and cooking oil,

28:30

which are very important to many

28:34

families in maintaining

28:36

a minimal standard of

28:38

nutrition because they can't otherwise

28:41

afford it. And they were

28:43

explicitly telling people, if you don't

28:45

vote for General

28:47

Poboa, your food allotments will

28:50

be cut off. Sometimes

28:52

people, in order to pick up the

28:55

rice and cooking oil, they were obliged

28:57

to go to General Poboa's campaign offices,

29:00

where when they went in, they

29:03

had to show their ID cards,

29:05

their photographs would be taken, they

29:07

were put on a list and they were

29:09

given a stern warning, if you don't vote

29:12

for the general, we will find you and

29:14

we will cut off your

29:16

food. And at the same

29:18

time, local government

29:21

officials, and in

29:23

Indonesia the system is almost entirely nationalized,

29:25

what we would call federalized in the

29:27

United States. So there aren't

29:29

really truly local officials in the sense of

29:32

autonomous from the central government. They all ultimately

29:34

branch out from the central government. These

29:37

local officials were being threatened with prosecution

29:40

for corruption if they did

29:43

not mobilize the resources

29:45

they controlled in their neighborhoods and

29:48

their districts and their towns and

29:50

cities to elect General

29:52

Poboa. And

29:54

then on the national

29:56

level, in terms of targeting especially

30:00

in terms of targeting of the middle class and

30:03

young people, Prabhoa very

30:05

smartly hired the campaign

30:07

consultant who would help Bong Bong

30:09

Marcos of the Philippines, the

30:12

elected president. And

30:15

Prabhoa was presented as

30:17

a gamoy, a fat,

30:19

cuddly, adorable cartoon

30:22

character, a dancing cartoon character

30:24

who appeared in TV ads.

30:26

And this was quite a leap, considering

30:28

not just that General Prabhoa was a

30:30

mass murderer, the most notorious mass murderer

30:33

in Indonesia, but also that

30:35

his rhetorical style is

30:37

to yell, to threaten. He routinely

30:40

blames anyone who criticizes him of being an

30:42

antikasing, a foreign lackey, even

30:49

though he himself is the

30:51

Indonesian officer closest to the United

30:53

States over the years. He was

30:55

carrying out the

30:57

worst of his crimes. So all these

31:00

forces together made him an

31:02

almost unstoppable

31:04

political force. That

31:07

and the power, the option

31:09

of electoral fraud in

31:11

the peace, in the intercept, I describe

31:14

a meeting that took place,

31:17

well, it was Wednesday of the previous week, so it

31:19

would be about, I guess, 10 days before this is

31:22

released, where military and

31:24

intelligence officials discussed

31:28

the existence of a plan to,

31:30

if necessary, do electoral frauds

31:33

by tampering with the local

31:37

vote tabulation sheets, and

31:39

then with the data entry process at

31:43

the regional administration office, and

31:45

then with, if needed, hacking of

31:48

the National Elections Commission system.

31:51

And the final result that was

31:53

announced yesterday gave

31:56

the general about 58%. not

32:00

clear how much of that was real, how

32:03

much of that was fabricated, or

32:05

if they actually needed to resort

32:07

to tampering with the vote count, because there

32:09

was so much pressure brought to

32:11

bear by the state beforehand that might not

32:13

even have been necessary. We don't know yet.

32:15

That hasn't become clear yet. What

32:18

is clear is that President

32:20

Jokowi, the incumbent civilian, has

32:22

dragged General Prabowo into office, and

32:25

he's dragging Indonesia back

32:28

to a new version of the

32:30

Suharto era. You know, Jokowi may

32:32

think that he pulled off

32:34

something clever here, but

32:37

as somebody watching this just unfold

32:39

from the outside, the first thing

32:41

I wonder is, is Prabowo just

32:43

going to finish off Jokowi at this point? Like,

32:45

once he's in power, why would he tolerate

32:49

even a quasi-allied power

32:51

center that could be a

32:53

rival? It's an interesting question. Right. Did

32:56

Jokowi just dig his own grave? Well, I

32:58

don't think it will go

33:01

completely in that direction, because

33:04

even though Prabowo will have full power once

33:07

he's in, and he has

33:09

called for going back to an

33:11

older version of the Indonesian

33:13

constitution, which would give

33:16

the president even more extensive powers,

33:18

and would essentially give him

33:21

the power to appoint most

33:23

of the members of the Indonesian, what

33:25

is the Indonesian equivalent of the US

33:27

Senate. So he

33:30

really will be able to rule.

33:33

I don't know that he would have any

33:35

motive for necessarily turning on Jokowi, because at

33:38

this point, there's no indication that Jokowi would

33:40

be at cross-purposes with him. Jokowi

33:42

gave him his son as his running

33:44

mate. The son would become vice president. And

33:48

Jokowi remains popular, because

33:50

two basic reasons. One, he's

33:53

the first president in

33:55

Indonesian history who

33:57

speaks the language of the people. literally,

34:01

referred to as a Bahasa-Pasa

34:04

market talk. And

34:06

that's the way Jokowi speaks. And

34:08

it's different from the higher flown language

34:11

that other politicians and national figures

34:13

use and the people see

34:16

on TV. And he's very

34:18

effective at making a connection with people.

34:21

And he also did a lot

34:23

of public works and economic

34:25

development programs that many people liked during

34:27

his term in office, as President Jokowi

34:29

did. So at least until

34:32

recently, where it's declined somewhat, he has been

34:35

very popular. So I think

34:37

Prabowo will want to, you

34:39

know, take advantage of that popularity and not

34:41

clash with him. But the

34:43

people who will be in danger, the people

34:45

who will be in trouble with

34:47

General Prabowo and the presidency, are

34:51

basically anyone who he perceives as

34:53

an enemy or a

34:55

potential enemy. In 2014,

34:59

when he first ran for

35:01

president against Jokowi, I

35:03

published my interviews

35:05

with him, where

35:07

he talked about imagining becoming

35:10

a fascist dictator, where

35:12

he said Indonesia is not ready

35:15

for democracy, where he

35:17

talked about how the Santa Cruz massacre was in the

35:19

silic because it was done in front

35:21

of surviving

35:24

witnesses. In 2019, when

35:27

he ran against Jokowi, I

35:30

published an internal government document which

35:32

described a meeting at Prabowo's house,

35:35

where he and his

35:38

generals, Prabowo's generals, made plans

35:40

for mass arrests of

35:42

his opponent once he

35:46

took office, including remarkably

35:48

enough, mass arrests

35:50

of many of the Islamists

35:52

are aligned with ISIS, who

35:54

during that campaign in 19, were

35:57

the grassroots basis for General Prabowo's campaign.

36:00

And they were very good. They did a

36:02

very effective door-to-door campaign job on his behalf.

36:05

But in the meantime, he and his generals were planning

36:07

to arrest them as soon as they took office because,

36:10

as they said in this meeting, according

36:12

to the minutes, this would

36:14

get them in good with the United States.

36:17

No doubt it would. Yes, probably so.

36:19

Now, no equivalent planning document

36:22

has leaked this time around,

36:24

but there's no reason to think that General

36:27

Praboa's thinking or plans

36:29

have changed at all. He's

36:31

still someone who imagines himself in the

36:33

role of the fascist

36:35

dictator. There's every reason to

36:37

think that he will, as his

36:40

people planned in 19,

36:43

to go after his opponents in

36:46

a massive way. So it's now very

36:48

dangerous, not just for

36:50

the independence movement in West

36:52

Papua, which includes a

36:54

small armed resistance

36:57

force, but also many

36:59

civilians and activists,

37:02

but also for grassroots activists

37:04

of all kinds across Indonesia,

37:08

especially human rights activists

37:10

who expose and criticize

37:12

the army, labor activists,

37:16

environmental activists,

37:19

anti-corruption activists, because corruption

37:22

is a central part of

37:25

the Indonesian political and

37:27

economic system. And also,

37:29

it may start to get uncomfortable for

37:32

people who are critics of

37:35

the United States if

37:37

Praboa decides to continue

37:40

his past practices of

37:42

currying favor with

37:44

the United States. It's very interesting. Interesting.

37:49

It's a very interesting maneuver that he uses, because on

37:51

the one hand, he goes around denouncing everyone as

37:53

an anti-Khasim, as a foreign lackey.

37:57

But at the same time, in every matter of substance,

38:00

He does what he can to prove

38:02

his loyalty to the United States. For

38:04

example, in the period leading up

38:06

to the last election, one

38:08

of his top aides, Arif

38:10

Puyono, was filing a

38:13

workers' rights lawsuit against Freeport-McMaurin,

38:16

the U.S. mining giants, and

38:18

General Prabbo stepped in to kill that lawsuit.

38:20

He ordered him to pull it, because

38:23

he said, well, they're a big investor. We

38:25

can't be bothering them like this. We've got to

38:27

help them. So

38:30

now others, including the

38:32

workers of Freeport-McMaurin and environmental

38:35

activists in Papua and

38:37

elsewhere, all these people face

38:39

grave danger because they're up

38:41

against the worst mass

38:44

murderer in modern Indonesian history

38:47

who will be sitting in the palace. And

38:50

what's been the U.S.'s contemporary

38:52

role in Prabbo's rise?

38:54

Is he a kind of zombie

38:57

U.S. dictator just surviving

38:59

from the past, the

39:01

dead hand of CIA's past,

39:03

or has the U.S. been taking active

39:06

measures to help usher

39:08

him into power? It

39:10

is more a consequence

39:12

of the past actions,

39:15

but the U.S. does not oppose him

39:18

in any way now. As

39:21

Suharto was falling in 1998, as

39:25

the U.S. often does, it

39:28

drops its

39:31

people, its local operatives, its local

39:33

agents, very quickly. As

39:35

Suharto fell, Prabbo was

39:38

suddenly overnight not as useful as he

39:40

had been. He was

39:42

Suharto's son-in-law. He was their best

39:45

channel, Washington's best channel

39:48

to Suharto. General Prabbo

39:50

was essentially working simultaneously for both

39:52

the U.S. and the Defense Intelligence

39:54

Agency and his father-in-law General Suharto.

39:56

But with Suharto gone, Prabbo was the only one

39:58

who was in the office. who immediately became

40:01

less powerful. Just weeks

40:03

after Suharto fell, Prabho

40:06

attempted a coup against

40:08

the new civilian president, Habibi,

40:12

who had been the vice president to

40:14

Suharto. He failed in that coup attempt.

40:17

But also within the Indonesian army at

40:20

that time, after Suharto's fall, Prabho's

40:23

status declined. His rivals

40:25

in the army moved against him and

40:27

they actually publicly blamed him for

40:32

one of his crimes, actually one of his

40:34

smaller crimes. And that is the kidnapping

40:36

of the 24 activists in

40:38

Jakarta that I mentioned earlier.

40:42

They didn't blame him for any

40:44

of the mass killings. They

40:46

didn't blame him for the anti-Chinese riots. But

40:49

they focused on those particular kidnappings and

40:53

the 13 who were still disappeared. And

40:55

one of the basic arguments they made

40:57

was, well, these crimes were not authorized.

41:00

And I don't know, that may have been true. We don't

41:02

know. Clearly everything that he had

41:04

done was in accord with the

41:08

policy of General Suharto and

41:10

the subsequent policy of the Indonesian armed

41:12

forces and also the policy of the

41:14

US, which was backing them and arming

41:16

them and training them and sustaining them

41:18

politically. But the argument they

41:20

made was, well, these particular kidnappings were

41:23

not authorized essentially. They were out applying the

41:25

policy. So Prabho was

41:28

demoted and temporarily

41:30

humiliated by his own army.

41:33

And he went into exile in

41:35

Jordan for a time. And as

41:37

this was happening, the US

41:40

also distanced himself from him.

41:42

And in fact, when I met with him in 2001, which

41:46

was not long after this, he had already come

41:48

back to Indonesia. He comes from a rich family

41:50

to begin with. He was running a very

41:52

rich palm oil business.

41:54

He was clearly bitter about how he

41:56

felt the US at that point. trade

42:00

him. It was in that context that he

42:02

said, oh, I was the American's fair-haired boy.

42:04

Now we're on to his main rival. Now

42:07

he is their fair-haired boy. Now you

42:09

can't trust your American spy

42:12

masters. No. This has

42:14

been proven time and time

42:16

and time again in country

42:18

after country because Washington just

42:20

makes a calculus of power.

42:23

If you suddenly don't have the power, what good

42:26

are you? That's the basic approach.

42:28

Unless they see your potential

42:30

to return to power as

42:33

Rabeau is now in the

42:35

process of doing. But

42:37

that one particular case

42:40

is the kidnapping of the activists.

42:42

It's interesting. In Indonesian political discussion,

42:44

it's the one case that you're

42:47

essentially allowed to talk about. It's

42:49

the one thing that most, or I don't

42:51

know most, but a lot of the population

42:53

has heard about. A lot of

42:55

the population has heard about those kidnappings because

42:57

it is discussed in the press from time

42:59

to time. But almost all

43:01

the rest, including the

43:04

largest slaughters, are expunged from

43:06

the textbooks or almost

43:08

never mentioned in the press. Certainly

43:10

the U.S. sponsorship of those atrocities

43:12

is also never mentioned in

43:14

the press. That one

43:17

incident was the one

43:19

case of Rabeau having

43:21

his sponsors in the army and in

43:23

Washington distance himself from him. But in

43:25

more recent years, as Rabeau

43:28

has staged his political comeback,

43:31

the U.S. has been okay with him. In

43:33

this current election, this concluded

43:35

election, there were three candidates. I

43:37

think the U.S. was neutral as to which

43:40

one they would back. They're ready

43:42

to accept Rabeau. It may prove

43:44

to be a bit embarrassing to them once he

43:46

comes in, if at least

43:48

outside Indonesia, people start talking about

43:51

some of the massacres that he did with

43:54

full U.S. sponsorship and

43:56

support. But they've

44:00

got no problem with him. They're

44:02

ready to accept him. And I think

44:05

he will be thrilled to

44:07

once again be working together with

44:09

Washington. And from Pakistan to Gaza,

44:11

they have plenty of other embarrassments

44:13

at the moment to deal with. So what's

44:16

one more on the pile? And last question,

44:19

just curious, from your perspective, how

44:21

concerned are you about being in

44:23

Jakarta? Does he still feel like

44:25

it's imbecilic to go after

44:27

kind of Western reporters who have a

44:31

megaphone and can bring negative attention onto human rights

44:33

abuses in Indonesia? Or do you think that now

44:35

that he's moving into power,

44:38

he might be willing to take more risks

44:40

than he was even in the past? Well, you

44:42

don't do it in front of witnesses. You do it where there are

44:44

no witnesses. No, it's my

44:46

own situation. I'm not worried

44:49

about that. I mean, I've been banned

44:51

by Suharto entry as

44:53

a threat to national security and was

44:55

arrested by the army many,

44:58

many times during the last proposed

45:01

last two presidential campaigns,

45:03

14 and 19. In both

45:06

cases, his campaign

45:08

announced that they had filed criminal charges

45:12

against me, first for publishing

45:16

what he had said to me, and then later for

45:19

publishing the document about his plans to

45:21

do mass arrests, including mass

45:23

arrests of his own supporters.

45:26

But no, I'm not worried about that.

45:28

But the people who do have reason

45:31

to be concerned are activists

45:34

across Indonesia, and

45:37

especially people across West Papua, where

45:40

the current Indonesian military

45:42

before long for

45:44

years now, before Purov takes office,

45:46

has already on a

45:48

regular, persistent, unending basis

45:51

been killing whatever civilians they feel

45:53

is necessary to keep pro

45:56

independent sentiment in check. And

45:58

now there's a very good chance That that

46:00

will get. Even. More intensive

46:02

than was popular. And.

46:04

Become much more dangerous for activists

46:07

across a ninja, especially human rights

46:09

activists. While on thanks so

46:11

much for your reporting over the years and

46:13

your can ten euro putting on this and

46:16

thank you for joining me here and and

46:18

sharing All this on deconstructed was. Sold

46:23

Alan there and that's or show

46:25

deconstructed Reduction of the Intercept was

46:28

a only virus is our lead

46:30

producer for supervising producer is More

46:32

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