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Cast burrow.com/a Cast. I

0:36

welcome to deconstructed. I'm Ryan. Grim

0:38

and social media has played a

0:40

really interesting and unusual role in

0:42

the way that we've understood the

0:45

conflict between. Israel and Palestinians

0:47

in Gaza over the last several

0:49

months In a way that reminds

0:51

me in some ways of how

0:53

the advent of Twitter and Facebook.

0:56

In. The car twenty tens reshape

0:58

the way that the world understood

1:00

the Arab Spring and how the

1:02

how people at the time or

1:05

were able to connect and then

1:07

also how the dictators. That.

1:09

Face the consequences of the ability

1:11

of those people to conduct started

1:14

to blame can Twitter and Facebook.

1:16

On. The fact that they were now

1:18

getting. Toppled. And so

1:21

I say All that. To. Kind of

1:23

preface the conversation that I'm going to

1:25

have the day with my colleagues Sam

1:27

Biddle or who reports for us on

1:30

technology with a focus on surveillance, privacy,

1:32

corporate power and all other things related

1:34

to attack and power. Or Sam

1:36

welcome to Deconstructed. Thanks for joining me here! Thank

1:38

you so much for having me on. That.

1:41

We've got this really interesting situation that

1:43

has developed were on the one hand,

1:45

you've been doing a ton of really

1:48

fascinating reporting on the way. That.

1:50

Social media platforms. His

1:52

social media giants have

1:54

been censoring users. Co.

1:57

In a pro Israel

1:59

direction. Get. It the same time

2:01

that's overlaid by this fact that. The.

2:03

More somebody is on social media and

2:05

kind of the younger they are. in

2:08

some ways the more likely they are

2:10

to sympathize with Palestinians in this conflict,

2:12

the more likely they are to get

2:15

a more accurate insights, more accurate window

2:17

into what's going on on the ground

2:19

despite the fact that all of this

2:22

cause censorship and and push in one

2:24

direction is going on. and maybe that's.

2:27

Simply. Because the corporate media

2:29

here in the Us is

2:31

to so. So. Slanted

2:33

that even kind of any window into

2:35

what's going on the ground. Crates That

2:37

change. You would do a lot of

2:40

work on Facebook in particular your how

2:42

would you say that they responded in

2:44

the first couple of weeks. After.

2:46

October Seventh. So.

2:48

Matter, which is the parent company of Facebook

2:51

and Instagram. Controls. The

2:53

speeches billions of people around

2:56

the world including Israel and

2:58

Gaza. It.

3:00

Was really striking to see

3:02

how little had same since

3:04

last time. There was a

3:06

prolonged period of intense Israeli.

3:09

Military action, Against

3:12

Palestinians of the of Israeli

3:14

State Violence Against Palestinians In

3:16

Twenty Twenty One. There was

3:19

a lot of. Debate.

3:22

And controversy around the way Better

3:24

Handled. Itself And Twenty

3:26

Twenty one, namely. The. Suppress

3:28

in an abrupt the we

3:31

send in general the Pulitzer

3:33

to old censorship of information

3:35

about. That. Violence in the

3:37

aftermath of that net. I mean

3:40

a lot of promises to various

3:42

civil society groups. And it's the

3:44

general public about. Lessons

3:46

learned and how had you know

3:49

there were some me a call

3:51

buzz but then fast forward a

3:53

few years and it was the

3:55

says that exact same posts disappear,

3:57

hang people having their accounts lox

3:59

without explanation in a very. I.

4:01

Think it's fair to say slanted. As

4:04

you put it way most

4:06

of this suppressing the intentionally

4:08

or otherwise and in the

4:10

perfecting Palestinians or people sympathetic

4:12

to Palestinians and so yeah

4:14

is it is really seem

4:16

like to save a total

4:18

rehash. Of. The past.

4:21

I'm. So. So

4:23

as adding very little that is as if

4:25

I'm sorry little as meaningfully same since the

4:27

last time that it was in a position

4:29

to control people talking about. A

4:31

War. The. Ubiquity of the

4:34

censorship is what has always struck

4:36

me about. It's like almost anybody

4:38

who you spoke to. A

4:40

or you speak to about

4:43

posting on social media particularly

4:45

say spoken Instagram of have

4:47

stories of their posts getting.

4:50

Throttled, Taken down there account

4:52

suspended often with. No.

4:54

Explanation. No. Obvious reason

4:56

eating even the can a watermelon a

4:58

mosey that people started using and you

5:01

know it had some can actually but

5:03

it's also a with also way to

5:05

gonna get around the sensors a good

5:07

you people were just coming up with

5:09

all of these different codes to try

5:11

to make sure that they they weren't

5:13

getting caught in these nets but they

5:15

didn't know how the nets were designed

5:17

so ah what did a civil society

5:19

groups say. Beyond. The first of

5:22

weeks after October Seventh because you now

5:24

have two years, three years of met

5:26

a saying that we hear you your

5:28

valid. We do this again and. Of

5:30

a sudden they're. It. Seems like the exact

5:32

same thing is going on. So what response did

5:35

they get back? To. Med I think

5:37

it was a third of the are you

5:39

kidding me for be really have the exact

5:41

same conversations again after the assurances you gave

5:43

us the last time at a time before

5:45

that and into the groups that I speak

5:48

to are very frustrated for obvious reasons but

5:50

I think that if they see themselves as.

5:53

Taking. Their relationship with Mehta.

5:56

Is. A kind of stakeholder. Consultative

5:58

role. I

6:01

mean if it very seriously but a

6:03

lot of work into and I think

6:05

they do not always feel as as

6:07

met up is taking it as seriously

6:09

and even really decent they're listening not

6:11

really doing anything with. The

6:14

feedback they get from these groups know

6:16

as evidenced by the fact that like

6:18

assess the same thing for happening all

6:20

over again that and Twenty Twenty One

6:22

you had widespread removal of content. Attributed

6:25

to breaking the rules. And.

6:27

Then you also had widespread

6:30

disappearance of content with no

6:32

apparent explanation that metre later

6:34

blamed on technical errors. After

6:37

October seventh, the exact same thing.

6:40

a combination of. Things.

6:42

Been taken down for breaking the rules

6:44

whatever those rules may be, and then

6:46

just inexplicable. Vanishing ah that

6:48

the company said later says oh

6:50

wait, sorry that was the problem

6:52

or not always does disappearance of

6:54

content. But for instance there was

6:56

an i think maybe in November

6:59

of last year for Oh for

7:01

Media reported that. Certain

7:03

phrases in Arabic were being

7:05

in an Instagram profile. tax

7:07

was being translated to the

7:09

word terrorists. The in the

7:11

concept for palestinian user with

7:14

the company them said oh

7:16

sorry that was the machine

7:18

learning translation. Error.

7:20

But that. Response I

7:22

think is really emblematic of.

7:25

Met. His approach. You know it's it's it's a

7:27

very I think. Problematic.

7:30

Combination of. The.

7:33

System working as intended and

7:35

the system be broken. And.

7:37

When you. Apply

7:39

a system. That. Is

7:41

that it's functional to the speech of billions of

7:44

people? You're. Going to

7:46

get many many many many

7:48

false negatives of positives. We.

7:50

The lab. Who would However, you want

7:52

to categorize the book, but the end

7:55

result is censorship. whether it's intentional

7:57

or a byproduct of. Net.

7:59

using. The up in on the work. Despite.

8:01

All that Instagram and tic toc really

8:03

changed the way that the world understood.

8:06

This. Conflict and now understands it

8:08

to be a genocide because.

8:11

We. I said. the collective we

8:13

around the world have been able to

8:15

watch it unfold through Instagram and Tic

8:17

Toc. Despite all that a you had

8:19

people in my Motors Be Song in

8:22

corddry reporters who would go direct to

8:24

Instagram directed Tic Toc in ways we're

8:26

very familiar to people. You'll start our

8:28

hey Guys except instead of hey guys

8:30

like yours my makeup routine it's like

8:32

hey Guys and you could hear the

8:34

starting of the bombs around them. How

8:37

did say spoken. And. Instagram response

8:39

to that. There was a lot of

8:41

pushback at the same time from. Pro.

8:44

Israel Forces that were saying at

8:46

this is unfair your your indoctrinating

8:48

kids they're giving these direct linkage

8:50

is creating these paris or short

8:52

relationships so. What? Was it like

8:55

for face books out to be? Yeah. Kind

8:57

of caught between both sides because now. You're

9:00

not only do you have like the pros

9:02

your lobby wanted to strip ban tic tac,

9:04

they're awesome. Limit about how they've lost control

9:06

on Instagram. I think

9:08

that met as realizes they can't. Know.

9:11

I mean, and and in fairness, nor do

9:13

I, nor is there any indication this is

9:15

something they would want to do their there

9:18

is no will to censor. Depictions.

9:21

Of the war. Where. You

9:23

start to see. Trouble.

9:25

Is in be kind of

9:27

edge cases in the gray

9:29

areas of you know I'm

9:32

I'm at. An example that

9:34

that comes to mind is

9:36

immediately after the Russian invasion

9:38

of Ukraine. Ah mehta. Reminded

9:40

all the moderators that images of

9:43

Russian airstrikes, even if they are

9:45

very, very gruesome and graphically violent

9:47

things that would typically be carefully

9:50

subject to removal should be preserved

9:52

because they have used value. It

9:55

wasn't a car vapid as as

9:57

bus a specific reminder to preserve.

10:00

Imitation of ruff ruff and

10:02

atrocities. No such. Directly.

10:04

Ever memo or anything like that

10:07

was ever provided in the aftermath

10:09

of October Seventh about Israeli airstrikes

10:11

So. You. Know that

10:13

there's no effort on met his part

10:15

whatsoever to be and students are black

10:17

out about this. but they to say

10:19

the least are not taken the kind

10:21

of proactive steps they did around. Russia.

10:24

And Ukraine and I think is that is where

10:26

he said to get into. Some

10:29

some really concerning areas here I'm I'm

10:31

asked to think about Six Hawkins Instagram.

10:33

I think it's really. Fascinating.

10:36

Because yes, so much of the.

10:39

Hysteria around. The.

10:41

Doctrine is of use treats these

10:44

platforms they have. There's some sort

10:46

of. Sophisticated.

10:48

Brainwashing. Operation when

10:50

I mean I think it's stands

10:53

to reason is definitely she's pretty

10:55

simple when people see. Images

10:57

of of horrific. But.

11:00

Once said to matter whose blood is

11:02

being said they don't. people like that

11:05

you know with when they see body

11:07

blown apart by bomb. Death.

11:09

Of setting the most people have enough to

11:11

be any ideology attached to that are any

11:14

indoctrination attached to happy to see a half

11:16

people see that happening and big of awful

11:18

And you know as much as. Powered.

11:21

The policy perspective does get suppress

11:23

enough is getting through right? That

11:27

are not the thanks i think as it is

11:29

in large part to the journalists from the terms

11:31

of the the mentioned and and of is getting

11:33

through that is is the of the staff of

11:35

on the ground are undeniable and. Viscerally

11:38

a. Disservice

11:40

anyone who sees them. And tell

11:42

me if you think this is right, but. What? Seems

11:45

to be unique about this is conflict.

11:47

Here is the way that people are

11:49

able to develop his power, social relationships

11:51

with the reporters who are themselves under

11:54

threat, the rise of Tic Toc and

11:56

and Instagram as as real sources of.

11:59

News. For p. The least somewhat recent. It's.

12:01

Around during Russia's invasion of Ukraine and

12:03

I think if. Let's. Say the

12:06

assault on keys had lasted longer

12:08

than a couple of days. There.

12:10

Was repelled very quickly and then you wind

12:12

up getting this trench warfare and these offenses

12:14

and counteroffensives. If the assault on keep it

12:16

lasted longer I think you would have developed.

12:19

To. Same power social relationships with

12:21

Ukrainian either. Journalists are. Citizen.

12:23

Journalists. Who would have

12:25

been your broadcasting from their apartments? And.

12:28

Crate and creating those. Those. Connections

12:30

was once it moved to more trench

12:32

warfare more traditional warfare then you had

12:35

blame journalists who are like on the

12:37

front lines but. The. A people

12:39

were trying not to use phones because the

12:41

second that you would use a phone to

12:43

them would figure out where you are and

12:45

you had instances of that. but with Russians

12:47

were don't and Ukraine's for done it and

12:49

then boom or so not worth it. But.

12:51

Also. Those. Are reporters who can

12:54

have traveled to the front lines and

12:56

it's more traditional type of setting was.

12:58

These. Reporters These: these are just people who

13:01

were. Normal. People On October

13:03

Sixth. Some. Of them working in

13:05

journalism, some of them. Not. At the moment,

13:07

working in journalism And then October seventh, eighth,

13:09

ninth, They. Have nowhere to go.

13:11

It's as if they've kind of thrust themselves.

13:14

Into. This for a some thrill seeking or

13:16

for some eve of professional reasons Just as

13:18

they are there and I'm telling you about

13:20

their life. They're. Trapped there has been

13:23

I've I've met Not not to at

13:25

all diminish the bravery that it requires

13:27

that to document something like that, but

13:29

they only have a choice writing that

13:31

they're literally traps in this war. Whereas

13:33

read it as you as you point

13:35

out to be said that there are

13:37

reporters covering the war in Ukraine Now

13:39

Other added in, there is a formal

13:41

process there and without a lot of

13:44

the foot is coming out of gases,

13:46

just people wandering around to they've never

13:48

have to be right. that is. Extremely

13:50

densely populated urban area. Where

13:53

is the. Of

13:55

fighting machine Russia and Ukraine is happening in

13:57

that think the point. Completely. Deep

13:59

Pocket because we're there. There's no a

14:01

narrative to see any of it except

14:03

the people doing the fighting and maybe

14:06

a handful of indebted the western reporters.

14:09

Me as funny as latest. and you brought up

14:11

the Arab Spring. Earlier

14:13

that essays of thinking about

14:15

social media and I eat

14:17

as much as I agree

14:19

that. The.

14:22

Footage and imagery coming out of

14:24

Gaza has been extremely. Powerful,

14:27

I do think that it's it's

14:29

it's challenges some of the premises

14:31

of an. Arab Spring

14:33

discourse when she along that was

14:36

like basically in a third digital

14:38

democracy south. If you do people

14:40

access to Twitter you will overturn

14:42

dictators like the technology is itself

14:44

powerful enough to cause. She tried

14:46

to cause actual political material change.

14:49

It's hard to imagine foot is

14:51

coming out of Gaza of Israeli

14:53

airstrikes. another Israeli assaults that are

14:55

more disturbing that we've already seen,

14:57

right? We've already basically maxed out

15:00

with capacity for harbor read but

15:02

the morsel going on there and

15:04

see to be any. Really?

15:06

Any real challenge to the prosecution

15:08

of that war, popular support for

15:10

it and Us might. Have

15:13

been flow but. The. Government's

15:15

commitment to supporting that more. Material

15:18

commitment hasn't changed as far as I know.

15:20

An iota. So. I mean I. I

15:22

do think that this really. Undermines.

15:25

The ones that Arab Spring optimism

15:27

that you could post your way.

15:30

To change. I mean I. I. And.

15:32

Again, I'd I'd if is not the way

15:34

to at all the efforts of the people

15:36

doing it. In some ways, sometimes dictators are

15:39

easier to overthrow them. Democracies Surf. Some of

15:41

those pre Arab Spring dictatorships turned out to

15:43

be extraordinarily fragile. You you get enough people.

15:46

Into the streets and. The

15:49

people. At the top turn on them and.

15:51

They're. On a plane and and they're out of

15:53

there. Was dragged, was dragged through the streets. Whereas.

15:56

In the Us I think he clearly

15:58

has an effect. Public Opinion? certainly.

16:01

We just had a Gallup poll come

16:03

out this week, or that was the

16:05

first since the first Flower Massacre that

16:08

sound And seventy. Five. To

16:10

seventy eight percent of democrats. To.

16:12

Like only eighteen percent opposed, basically.seventy.

16:14

eight percent of democrats opposing Israel's

16:17

war effort. Overall, it was a

16:19

fifty five percent of the entire

16:21

public against even Republican. Something like

16:23

thirty plus percent had turned against

16:26

it. And. You see the

16:28

numbers wildly. Fluctuating. Depending

16:30

on your age didn't seem like the more

16:32

you're seeing. In. The more you're against

16:34

it. Down, the fact that that

16:37

hasn't led to policy change is the

16:39

separate question, right? Yeah, Be. I think

16:41

it says more about the disconnect from

16:43

between public policy or public opinion And.

16:46

Policy. Which is in the social media

16:48

thing, but it just as remind me of how there was

16:51

so much hope. Among. Your technologists.

16:53

That social media would be what

16:55

it takes to make teams and

16:57

public opinion. History and maybe

16:59

they are in the runway but. The.

17:02

Extent to which. Public.

17:05

Opinion about this war has been

17:07

shaped by. Documentary.

17:10

Unimpeachable evidence and yet nothing

17:12

changes as then I think

17:15

really revealing and. Disillusioning,

17:18

In In in a lot of ways, right? And you

17:20

can have all the evidence in the world right in

17:22

front of you. Who? right? And so what? You know?

17:24

I mean it. At the end of the day, nothing

17:26

is. nothing is happening as I think this. It

17:29

away my tv fiscal end of that kind

17:31

of Arab spring. Idealistic thinking about social

17:33

media. Specifically, you're not the suggest the people

17:36

says up caring about this stuff but

17:38

it does. I mean that the divide between

17:40

what people want and what people think from

17:42

their the people they put into power

17:44

with as people do. I think it's never

17:46

been more or as I can either.

17:48

But example being more stark. Millions

17:54

of people have lost me with personalized

17:56

plans from them like an and against

17:58

San Solace and. The last fifty

18:01

pound salad generally. For most

18:03

people are the easy gotten right. For

18:05

me to that wasn't an option. I've

18:07

never really was a solid yeah this

18:09

is not as the Noom worked. With

18:13

your personalized lance they have known that com

18:15

real news or complicated to provide the sword

18:17

and for week for typical new that can

18:19

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18:22

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terms at mintmobile.com And

18:59

at the same time, there's another

19:01

interesting parallel to the Our Springs

19:04

is those empowered do still seem

19:06

to feel threatened by this relationship

19:08

that people have developed with the

19:10

people they're seeing destroyed on social

19:12

media. And you can tell that

19:15

by the fact that they're trying

19:17

to. Ban. Tic toc. Your

19:19

you see all this energy

19:22

put into this argument that

19:24

the Chinese are manipulating young

19:26

people into hiding. Or Israel's

19:28

war effort here. Like that's what's going on years

19:30

now. You think it is. It's. Actually

19:32

there are being brainwashed into it.

19:35

So zeller little bit about tic

19:37

tacs. Relationship. To

19:39

Palestinian dissenters walk. Over the years

19:41

I've also heard he the Palestinians

19:43

or people who are supportive of

19:45

the Palestinian cause but they to

19:48

have had enormous difficulty. And

19:50

a posting without getting nuked. I'm

19:53

so how. Have we got

19:55

to a place where, despite that, It's.

19:57

Still, A threat big enough that they could

19:59

get. The house to pass a bill. To.

20:02

Be the seller ban it. Yeah. I

20:04

think that the anti tic

20:06

toc movement. Has

20:08

become a pretty big tent. I think

20:11

it it is is at this point.

20:13

Largely a movement of i'm kind

20:15

of neo cold warrior type China

20:18

hawks people who just see where

20:20

the a material interests in hostilities

20:22

with China know sort of warfare

20:24

in a worse than friendly not

20:26

as bad as going to war

20:28

although I'm sure a lot of

20:30

them would be very thrilled with

20:32

it in a shooting war with

20:35

China on but a union of

20:37

that. Branch. Which is, you know,

20:40

Very. Old and. Political.

20:42

Line As the money, I think there's been a

20:44

lot of people who blame at the allotted. Staunch.

20:47

Supporters of Israel and

20:49

the current War. Are.

20:52

Scapegoating. Tic Toc I mean it's

20:55

it's very for her to sell to

20:57

what I said they actually people who

20:59

say oh no takes off his brain

21:01

washing children into hating Israel or be

21:03

to talk as brainwashing are college students

21:05

into being Hamas gorillas is sort of

21:07

our home of the actually believe that

21:09

versus how much they. Resent.

21:12

Tic Toc for sharing images

21:14

of the Palestinians with. Young.

21:17

Americans, The argument feels

21:19

as absurd as we heard back during

21:21

the Arab Spring back then. You'd

21:24

hear Mubarak in his supporters saying.

21:27

Near the problem here is Facebook

21:29

and twitter and for for them

21:31

I'd be fine. Or on

21:33

saying the same thing about the year before that.

21:36

Okay, but everything that they're saying is

21:38

true about you read, not making anything

21:40

up. It's just that they're able to

21:42

now. The. Real in our share it

21:44

more freely. And. So does

21:46

see Americans. Making. That

21:48

same complaint almost fifteen years later,

21:51

When the same is true like nothing,

21:53

the saying is untrue. It's just that.

21:56

People. Have the freedom to kind of

21:58

share the things against like you said

22:00

like Mubarak? yeah to establish a tempest.

22:03

Also I mean the great irony here

22:05

is you know who ban social media

22:07

platforms because they present the national security

22:10

threat to the populist sign that read

22:12

any? Not that his leg for I

22:14

was supposed to be one of the

22:16

green defeat differentiate between our societies free

22:19

information. Was his you know if

22:21

you don't like is. That.

22:23

Sucks for you and if you let

22:25

it happen because the alternative is tyrannical

22:28

gathered there is a. Great.

22:30

Irony. but I think that it is. If.

22:33

You are a supporter of

22:35

the Israeli war effort. You

22:37

can't You can't say we

22:40

can't allow young people to

22:42

see images of dead Palestinians.

22:45

As. Much as ensured. That is

22:47

the underlying desire, but you can

22:49

save. We want to ban scary

22:52

Chinese communists software. That is.

22:55

Allowing people to see those images.

22:57

To your point before, yeah, plenty of

22:59

people, you know, not the exactly the

23:01

same demographic covert, but plenty of people

23:03

are seen the exact same stuff on

23:06

Instagram. Or. On twitter. And

23:08

we're on to scream a Russian app in our

23:10

you Don't See the Same legislative. Obviously.

23:13

To ban those platforms,

23:15

I think that the

23:17

resentment towards. Because

23:20

it is Chinese gave.

23:23

Those. Who resent it

23:25

because it allows. Unfettered

23:28

access to documentation

23:30

of atrocities. There's.

23:33

Something very convenient their right? It's like

23:35

did the years have of popular as

23:37

that is undermining support for this war.

23:39

The good news is we have there's

23:41

artist of built in movement to ban

23:43

it because it's Chinese so I think

23:45

there's been through the bandwagon effect their

23:47

my on but those two lobbies combined

23:49

are. Very. Powerful, when

23:51

does a powerful not actually pushed the legislation

23:53

through all the way I don't know, but

23:56

and they made it this? You.

23:58

Had a story recently that this

24:00

guy Jacob Hell Birds who is

24:02

one of those and a leading

24:04

kind of advocates of the of

24:06

the tick tock sale/band and you

24:08

reported that not only is he

24:10

a member of the Us China

24:13

Economic and Security Review Commission, Of

24:15

he also works for pounds here. Peter Teal

24:17

linked. Tech. Firm that really

24:20

benefits from can I U S

24:22

China conflict escalating war was jacobs

24:24

role in this. Predating

24:26

his employment accounts here, she's

24:29

a long time sign a

24:31

hawk that was originally a

24:33

couple of very. Illuminating

24:36

reports about this. One. From

24:38

early March I believe in one from.

24:41

Last. Year. About

24:43

his efforts he does this leave with up

24:45

support for a bad he hadn't the Journal

24:48

for that he had met with from the

24:50

like a hundred different legislators. Advocated

24:52

for getting sick talk. To

24:54

all of Them. If you

24:56

take him at his word is view

24:59

is that Tic Toc represents a genuine

25:01

national security threat to the I'd say

25:03

it's because it is a it is

25:06

in fact not a social media platform.

25:08

It's a Chinese military intelligence operation. Meant.

25:11

To. Do.

25:13

What? exactly? hard to say because

25:15

there's no proof spread. make up

25:17

tips. Yeah, there's no evidence for

25:20

any of that. So it's you

25:22

know, yes sir, to have to

25:24

use your imagination I guess. But

25:26

I'm The differences the now I

25:29

see works at come up Here,

25:31

which markets itself increasingly as a

25:33

necessary counter to Chinese military power.

25:37

I think it is very fair

25:39

to assume that any escalation in

25:41

tensions between the United States and

25:44

Santa. Benefits. Military

25:46

contractors who pissed themselves as

25:48

counters to Chinese military power.

25:50

That is how. Defense.

25:53

Contracting work at work. That's not

25:55

a conspiracy theory or even really

25:57

controversial war. Or. The.

26:00

The approach of war or hostilities even

26:02

are good for the defense industry. That

26:04

has always been true. It always will

26:06

be true, but you have, it's a

26:08

couple bird. As someone who is. Essentially.

26:12

Proceeding. Ah legislators

26:15

to dial up tensions between

26:17

the United States and China

26:19

while he. Is. An employee

26:21

of the company that midst of that

26:24

profits from this a symbolic since between

26:26

United States and China. Now look this

26:28

is not anything remotely you need to

26:31

take of Hell Bird or Palins here

26:33

or tic toc People in these conflicts

26:35

positions are i'm in advisory, have advisory

26:38

roles that the government. All

26:40

of that same as it ever was,

26:42

but I'm I'm focused on that in

26:44

in my. Article. Just because.

26:48

The. Fact of Employment A defense contractor

26:50

has been and he he didn't

26:52

hide that fact. But the fact

26:54

of it is essentially. Absent

26:56

from. Discussing. That his

26:59

role. Which. I thought was. Relevant

27:01

that will sit least. And since

27:03

the house passed that legislation that would

27:05

require to be spun off to. A

27:08

non Chinese. And your buyer

27:10

or band within one hundred eighty days or

27:12

so Stevenage and came out and said that

27:14

he was putting the other group of investors.

27:17

Now we know that my Newton's

27:19

investors and his from include the

27:21

Saudis see a Mirage is ah.

27:24

At one point before he retired

27:26

the most sought massaged spy chief.

27:29

I. Was reported to be talking a minute and

27:31

about and a major investment in his in

27:33

his farm as that put the brakes a

27:35

little bit on this like there was a

27:37

couple days of stories of to me wait

27:39

a minute. We're. Going to force. China.

27:42

To sell it to Saudi Arabia

27:44

who put Pegasus spyware on an

27:46

American journalists wife's phone and then

27:48

shops him to pieces. I.

27:50

Think in a in a lot of cases. Us.

27:53

Saudi relations expose the hollowness

27:55

of a lot of have

27:58

stated American values. And

28:00

in Saudi Arabia own the trunk

28:02

of Twitter I have not seen.

28:05

Maybe. He had. If he has

28:07

I apologize but I have. I'm

28:09

not aware of Jacob L. Bergen

28:11

other and is followed. China.

28:13

Hawks. Media. Think about

28:15

that for I think reasons that

28:18

are pretty clear as he China's

28:20

is a very effective. Boogie.

28:23

Man, right now in a doesn't require.

28:26

Denying. Or white washing

28:28

Chinese. Human. Rights abuses,

28:30

but very very helpful

28:32

adversary right now if

28:34

you are in the

28:36

business of. Defense.

28:39

Intelligence. Weapons.

28:42

You know now including a I. Mean

28:45

as I think the only. Anti.

28:47

China Voice in Silicon Valley

28:50

louder than Peter. Thiel is

28:52

arguably Eric Smith who also

28:54

has a enormous be a

28:56

vested interest financial interests in.

29:00

The deterioration of Us china Chinese

29:02

for listens. The. Saudi presence

29:04

I think just reveals. Wanted.

29:07

Assisted is I'm. A.

29:09

Put on. so back to matter you

29:11

reported that Ah well. as with warn

29:13

him Bernie Sanders I believe reach out

29:15

to the company to ask them. What?

29:18

Was going on his email his hillside groups don't

29:20

have any luck users don't have any luck so

29:22

maybe a couple centers who get some answers. your

29:24

what it? what? Did they ask him what they

29:26

find out. In December of

29:29

last year, ah, Senator Warren

29:31

sent a letter to mete.

29:34

Asking something like. Couple

29:36

dozen different very specific questions

29:39

about content moderation pertaining to

29:41

the war in Gaza. The.

29:46

Marquis. Questions were about

29:48

how much speech has

29:50

been removed, Broke.

29:52

And and this is crucial: How much

29:55

of it has been in Hebrew? How

29:57

much of it has been in Arabic?

29:59

So asking for specific figures about. Censor

30:03

Speech Whether it was a

30:05

genuine violation know some ruler,

30:07

Weather was the. Inadvertent.

30:10

Take. Down, or or whatever. Asking

30:12

for concrete figures and broken

30:14

down by language. Because

30:17

that the point of the letter

30:19

was to get documentation about. Prejudicial.

30:23

Content Lotteries Essentially the idea

30:25

that Med Att is treating.

30:27

Palestinians. And those sympathetic to

30:30

them differently from Israelis and a sympathetic

30:32

to that what are they find for

30:34

his own? Nothing metre replies with a

30:37

letter that I actually noticed a lot

30:39

of it was just copy and pasted

30:41

from a of a press. for these

30:43

they put out in October. The only

30:46

new information that I can see in

30:48

the letter was that met a disclose

30:50

that they had removed two point two

30:52

million posts. In the

30:55

week after October seventh. Or

30:57

but that was not broken down

30:59

by language. A totally punted on

31:01

the underlying question of are you

31:03

treating palestinian speeds different from Israeli

31:05

speech or speech about policy and

31:08

suffer from speech about Israelis and

31:10

about Israel. Ah, and

31:12

about the war? Is there discriminatory

31:14

content moderation happening here? And they

31:16

just ignored it? They didn't answer

31:18

the questions now and or warren

31:21

joined by Sanders, the. Second,

31:23

the same letter again saying a reunion other

31:26

side here in one more time to and

31:28

you answer actual questions. Will

31:30

see I would be surprised they proceed said

31:32

answers. Or. Where where's all this headed?

31:34

As far as that is concerned, I think

31:36

it's headed. Know. In

31:40

they are not. Obligated.

31:43

To divulge that information. You know

31:45

this because someone asked nicely. You.

31:48

Can draw whatever decreases you want about why

31:50

they need. I want to divulge that information.

31:52

Been there are a lot of civil society groups

31:54

around the world that have. Documented.

31:56

Many cases of Ah seats as

31:59

critic the all of Israel are

32:01

sympathetic. The Palestinians. Being.

32:03

Treated differently in speech that is not.

32:06

Only. Matter, however, has.

32:09

Been. With the mother lode of data that could. Demonstrate.

32:12

The scale of this discriminatory.

32:15

Enforcement. Amina Again, there's

32:17

no reason that I'm aware of to doubt

32:19

the work is being done by groups like

32:21

as Human Rights Watch and Com Law and

32:23

and many others to document the kind of

32:25

stuff. But. At the in

32:27

the day medic and say okay well as anecdote

32:30

all for that circumstance all you know you have

32:32

you got a south examples of bias got in

32:34

moderation but you don't have the whole picture on

32:36

it and the whole picture. But.

32:39

You know at what we know about. Large

32:42

internet companies that they do

32:44

not. Volunteer. For

32:46

Schools: information about how they

32:48

enforce their policies unless. They.

32:50

Ask you any net. It puts out

32:52

a transparency. Report. About

32:55

the number of ballpark figures of the

32:57

number of a piece of content they've

33:00

removed, but nothing about the specific mechanism

33:02

by which it was removed or or

33:04

or why we'd be know the ones

33:06

but not the why. I think that's

33:09

what Sanders and Werner are trying to

33:11

get up. By been

33:13

a good luck, I have a feeling they will not be

33:15

able to get much out of them. While

33:18

I got to hear last question taught

33:20

me a little bit about this story

33:22

you did this week about he lawn

33:25

Moscow. He's been kind of publicly fighting

33:27

government surveillance but apparently profiting off of

33:29

it the same time. Yet so and

33:31

I think a very to preface this

33:34

by saying this is a relationship that

33:36

goes that that predates you on must

33:38

purchase of Twitter by many years. but

33:40

I'm. That and

33:42

twenty fourteen. Twitter sued the government

33:45

so that they could say exactly

33:47

how many. National Security letters

33:49

they had. Receives.

33:51

Naturals letters are a.

33:55

Way for the government to compel companies

33:57

like Twitter, Google, or. The

34:00

never to turn over. Ah,

34:02

private customer information. So. That.

34:05

The government could go to twitter and say

34:07

hey we want this person's twitter d ends

34:10

at the matter National security I'm also you

34:12

are gagged and can't disclose the fact that

34:14

we asked you for this and forces give

34:16

it us twitter i think rifle he said.

34:19

This. Isn't good or we've we here

34:21

at least humid tell people this

34:23

is happening under must they try

34:26

to take always supreme court and

34:28

iniquitous and to the court musks

34:30

lawyers is your twitter or exes

34:32

Lawyers said in no uncertain terms

34:34

the government surveillance of the electronic

34:36

communications is prone to abuse and

34:38

is something the public needs to

34:40

be informed of. Lawless

34:43

is all happening. Twitter an.

34:45

Essentially leases. All.

34:48

The information on the public information on

34:50

it's platform to a company called Data

34:52

Minor which themselves it to. Ah,

34:56

Law enforcement agencies across the

34:58

country and Video D and

35:00

As My reporting has demonstrated.

35:03

Police. Departments including Federal

35:05

Police use. Idea

35:07

Minor to spy on Black

35:10

Lives Matter, protest or protests,

35:12

abortion rights rallies and other

35:14

first minute protected activities so

35:16

that would seem to be

35:18

the exact kind of. Abuse

35:21

that must lawyers were talking about in their

35:23

this into the supreme court which the supreme

35:25

court declined they to hear the case so

35:27

that is sort of dead but. I

35:30

mean, I'm I'm curious what you think,

35:32

but I think that must have really

35:35

positioned himself in a way that previous

35:37

Twitter executives did not as a kind

35:39

of his heterodox government skeptic right. like

35:41

he, he doesn't trust the government. He

35:43

thinks that you shouldn't either. In

35:46

a suspicious of. Us

35:49

foreign policy and police powers, but

35:51

yard and the same time. he

35:53

is a major defense contractor through

35:55

Spacex. And are also a

35:58

surveillance enter through. X.

36:00

And a date? A minor, so

36:02

you know there are inconsistency. The

36:04

man's a. Ideology. To say

36:07

the least. The. Height of the level

36:09

of conspiracies that he's willing to. Accuse

36:12

the American government up. Of

36:14

you would think would rule out

36:16

then. Selling. All of

36:18

your personal information to that very same

36:20

government one. but thanks yeah you would

36:22

be wrong. This is your first ever

36:25

was Sam Thank you as always. Really

36:27

appreciate you joining the show. My pleasure.

36:33

Or right, that was them. They often.

36:36

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36:38

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