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the history of fashion, is a production of

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Dress Media. With

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over 8 billion people in the world, we all have

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one thing in common. Every day, we

0:58

all get dressed. Welcome

1:00

to Trust, the History of Fashion, a podcast

1:02

that explores the who, what, when of why

1:04

we wear. We are fashion

1:07

historians and your hosts, Cassidy Zachary

1:09

and April Callahan. Dressless

1:12

nurse, today we pick back up

1:14

with our conversation with Dr. Kate

1:16

Annette Hitchcock. Kate is a

1:18

professor emerital of the Wilson College

1:20

of Textiles at North Carolina State

1:22

University and Raleigh, North Carolina. And

1:25

she has also taught at East

1:27

Carolina University, Virginia Tech and Savannah

1:29

College of Art and Design. Earlier

1:32

this week, we aired part one

1:35

of this episode discussing her recently

1:37

released book, The Intersection of Fashion

1:39

and Disability, a historical analysis. The

1:42

book spans more than 500 years

1:44

of how individuals with disabilities

1:46

have navigated the matter of

1:48

clothing, dress, and fashion. And

1:50

in part one, we chatted about the

1:53

public perception of disabilities during the late

1:55

Renaissance and early modern periods and how

1:57

these eras made to measure model of

1:59

clothing. production allowed for customization

2:01

catering to the needs of differently

2:04

abled bodies. We also spoke

2:06

about some of the figures in history with

2:08

disabilities and how their wardrobes factored into

2:10

their daily lives. And

2:13

today Kate joins us again to bring

2:15

us into the 20th century to chat

2:17

about some of the private and governmental

2:19

initiatives which have literally shaped the intersection

2:21

and future of dress and disability. Kate,

2:24

welcome back. Well, it's this point in

2:26

the middle of the 20th century that

2:28

we start to see philanthropic organizations

2:32

and even governmental entities

2:35

get involved in this very conversation that

2:38

we're having right now centering

2:40

around the needs of the

2:42

disabled. Clothing being a basic need

2:44

for all of us. How

2:47

did some of these organizations, whether

2:49

they were private, philanthropies, or governmental

2:51

entities, address

2:53

this topic of dress in

2:56

their initiatives? Yeah,

2:58

Sue, again, I'll point

3:00

to the Second World War as sort of a

3:02

bit of watershed, at least in

3:04

the US. During

3:07

the Second World War, towards the end of the Second World War

3:09

in this country, there was an army

3:12

doctor by the name of Dr. Howard Rusk

3:15

who became known as the father of

3:17

rehabilitation. He set

3:20

up a clinic and institution

3:22

at New York University Medical

3:24

Center, which is now I think

3:26

Langone Health. So he was a real

3:28

pioneer in terms of, again, looking

3:30

at military personnel who were coming

3:32

back from the war

3:35

in general and noticed

3:37

that while they were being

3:39

rehabbed quite well physically, once

3:42

they left in terms of clothing. And

3:45

so what he did was made the great move

3:47

of hiring a woman by

3:49

the name of Helen Cookman who

3:52

was herself disabled. She was

3:54

deaf and she had made

3:56

clothes to try and cover up her

3:58

bulky hearing aids. But she'd

4:00

also been an industrial designer. She designed

4:03

uniforms, working uniforms. And so she had

4:05

a background in the industry. And

4:08

so he set up a clothing

4:11

research foundation within this

4:13

that was just supposed to do a research

4:15

project. That's what it started out as, as

4:17

a research project. Eventually

4:20

what happened with Ms. Cookman was, I

4:22

wish I'd been able, some people in

4:25

history you'd like to go back and talk to. I

4:27

would like to. Your fantasy dinner party guests.

4:30

Yes. They do. I

4:32

think she was a force that enough

4:34

just for me and her to stick

4:36

together, maybe maybe you know, had much

4:38

of a word. But

4:41

she decided, well, a book came

4:43

out of this called Functional Fashions.

4:46

There was a few other personnel on it and

4:49

I write a bit about this in my book.

4:52

But basically she looked at problems

4:55

that, she managed to

4:57

condense issues, not necessarily by disability, but

4:59

by the area of the

5:01

body that was limited in movement. And

5:05

talked about some common solutions that she

5:07

found as she did her big research

5:10

project. Out of

5:12

this, and that book still, I mean, I've got

5:14

a copy of it. It's out of print, but

5:16

you can get it on Etsy and eBay

5:18

and places like that. It's called Functional Fashions.

5:21

It's really the first sort of, it's almost

5:23

like an encyclopedia of this topic. It's not

5:26

a big volume by any

5:28

means, but it does get into some

5:30

really good detail with images and explanations

5:32

and stuff. I think what's probably

5:36

as important is that she

5:38

was able to engage some

5:41

well-known fashion designers. Who

5:43

our listeners are going to know these names

5:46

when you're about to tell them. Right.

5:49

So, the Fashions was involved, Pauline Ch

5:51

rueger was quite heavily involved. I

5:54

did found mention of a young Jeffrey Bean

5:56

as well. Vera Maxwell. Vera

5:58

Maxwell, right. Shafna

6:00

and Morick's, Men's Wear. So

6:02

the list was very, very interesting.

6:06

I'm going to give a shout out to, at

6:08

this point, to Natalie Wright, who

6:10

is, was, she

6:13

may still be a PhD student up

6:15

at, I think, Wisconsin. Natalie

6:17

and I have communicated. She is

6:19

really literally writing the book on

6:21

functional fashion. That's

6:24

amazing. We would love to have her on the show when she's done.

6:27

Yeah, she has published a little

6:29

bit already, but she's really been digging into

6:31

the detail. And so she

6:34

put together a great exhibition on

6:36

functional fashions in, I think it was 2019, at

6:39

the Milwaukee Art Museum, and

6:41

wrote a wonderful blog about that. And that

6:43

is still up on the internet, as far

6:45

as I know. So you can

6:47

see some great, great pictures, images,

6:50

and her blog about

6:52

the movement on there. So again, I'm not

6:54

going to pretend to have to, to

6:56

have done all of that research myself.

6:59

That's, Natalie's taking care of that beautifully.

7:02

Now, one of the interesting

7:04

thing about functional fashions, you know, I started

7:07

off reading about this thinking, oh, this

7:09

really changed the game and shifted

7:12

everything. It didn't, it wrapped

7:15

around 1964, 1965. I

7:18

haven't found too many

7:21

explanations as to why, and I've seen

7:23

suggestions that it was a marketing issue.

7:27

One of the, I think one of

7:29

the problems we've had a lot

7:31

in the intersection of fashion disability over

7:34

since the 1960s is

7:37

getting the information out to the people who need

7:39

it. And I've heard that

7:41

over and over again. I still hear it now

7:43

with the internet, is that

7:45

just don't know that initiatives are out

7:47

there. They don't know where to look.

7:50

Well, you point out one that I thought was

7:52

really interesting that I think

7:54

probably was doing a good job at

7:56

this, I guess, Levi's. Could

7:58

you tell us how they were marketing? their adaptable

8:01

line? Yeah, well I

8:03

don't actually know how they were marketing.

8:05

I couldn't find much information.

8:07

I do know that Helen Cookman

8:10

worked with Levi's in the early 1970s. They used

8:12

a patent for

8:16

some pants for a seated man in

8:18

a wheelchair that had zippers on the

8:20

side. I put the patents, obviously

8:24

it's in the public domain, so you can go

8:26

online and look for patents by Helen Cookman. Suddenly

8:29

when she passed, I think it was

8:32

either 1973 or 1974, the

8:34

program at Levi's stopped. There was some

8:36

sort of limited advertising that I

8:38

think they thought might be more

8:40

like word of mouth. It

8:43

goes back to this industry perception

8:45

that one of the things

8:48

that I learned in my dissertation was

8:50

that at the

8:53

time, companies

8:56

did not want to be seen as

8:58

making stuff for people with disabilities. If

9:00

they were fashion companies, that

9:02

was not their market. They

9:04

didn't see it as design

9:07

for all or inclusive design. They saw it

9:09

as a completely separate market and

9:11

there was not enough money in it.

9:13

I may get some pushback for that,

9:16

but that's what I've read and the

9:18

things people I've told you, that's the

9:20

status quo. Yeah, well speaking of money,

9:22

the 1970s is this period of federal

9:25

legislation pertaining to disabilities

9:27

and that in turn

9:30

also meant governmental funds for

9:32

research and development for assistive

9:34

devices and product design. Did

9:37

that kind of infusion of

9:39

research money parlay

9:41

into the realm of clothing design

9:43

as well? No? Yes

9:46

and no. I think it got into

9:48

design. I still don't think it got as

9:50

far as the retail market, the mainstream retail

9:53

market. So yes, you're right. There was a

9:55

lot of, there was the Rehabilitation Act in 1973

9:57

that then gave rise to

10:00

the ADA in 1990, both

10:03

of which were like game changes for people

10:05

with disabilities. In fact, there

10:07

is clothing language in the A, specifically

10:10

related to employment for people with disabilities

10:12

and the ability to find size is kind

10:14

of buried, but it is in there.

10:17

There was a huge upswing

10:20

from about 1965 in

10:23

terms of government-funded

10:26

university-related research

10:28

in this country. A

10:30

lot of that had to do with

10:32

the Ag Extension programs. So those

10:35

extension programs that were set

10:37

up basically after the Second World

10:40

War at land-grant universities like Virginia

10:42

Tech and Michigan State and Iowa

10:44

State and all the big state

10:47

program. Texas Tech is another big

10:49

one. Texas Tech put out a lot of

10:51

research in the late 60s, early 70s. So

10:55

if you go through, if

10:57

you're an academic and you go back to the literature,

10:59

you'll see that there was just a ton

11:02

of initiatives throughout the

11:04

70s and 80s. It was

11:07

a wonderful program at Drexel University

11:09

run by Dolores Quinn that I write quite

11:12

a bit about. That sort

11:14

of crossed the bridge between

11:16

keeping stuff within the ivory

11:19

tower. She did that I

11:21

think was wonderful is that she asked Stephen Stipelman

11:23

to do all the illustrations for that book. So

11:27

it was really wonderful getting to know about that

11:29

work. Design Without Limits I

11:31

think is the name of the book. Again, out

11:33

of print, but you can get them on eBay.

11:38

If you turn this clock forward

11:40

50 years, now we're

11:42

kind of calling this realm adaptive

11:44

design, right? Within

11:47

that period, that's when this was born. Would

11:49

you define that term as it stands today for

11:51

our listeners? Today, friends.

11:55

Yeah, adaptive. It's an interesting term. I'm

11:57

going to give a shout out to...

12:00

someone who I profile in the

12:02

book Lucy Jones, who

12:05

graduated from Parsons and

12:07

she runs a company called

12:09

Foro and she's got beautiful,

12:11

beautiful wheelchair accessories. It's F-F-O-R-A.

12:15

Lucy said to me once,

12:17

I'm not keen on the term adaptive

12:20

because, and I'm gonna have to paraphrase her here,

12:22

I hope I do it correctly, when you

12:24

adapt something it means that it wasn't

12:26

designed right in the first place. Why

12:29

can't we just design things

12:31

correctly for the people who need them?

12:35

And I've given a lot of thought to that

12:37

because yeah,

12:40

I wouldn't, as a non-disabled

12:42

person, how would I feel about

12:44

that? I feel like

12:47

design, good design, should

12:50

be as far as possible

12:52

universal. I want to be

12:54

able to use things really no matter my

12:57

physical ability or cognitive

12:59

ability for that matter because this does

13:01

things, and even though I don't really write

13:04

about cognitive ability, it's part of universal design.

13:07

I think it's, as

13:09

far as I'm concerned, it's Pollyanna-ish

13:11

of me to imagine that every

13:13

single product and service out there

13:15

can be made to fit everybody's

13:17

needs. That's not fully feasible.

13:20

And I also

13:23

understand that, going back

13:25

to terminology again, because I'm a words

13:27

person, every era

13:31

has its name

13:33

that it needs to

13:35

collectively describe something. I think it's

13:37

a great thing that we are

13:39

talking about, who are prepared to

13:42

market to people who have

13:44

disabilities and to embrace disabled

13:47

models and for Vogue

13:49

to put disabled models on their cover.

13:52

We in the last literally five

13:54

years have seen such a

13:57

huge upswing in

13:59

public. That for

14:01

the word adapted or adaptive to

14:04

be used i'm not gonna

14:06

really argue with it

14:08

too much we

14:10

using that term. That's

14:13

great it's more important that

14:15

the things are being discussed then i

14:17

think the word that we're using to

14:19

describe that the needle has moved. I

14:23

think that i also think just one

14:25

other thing is that i think people

14:27

most sort of people out in the

14:29

community understand the word adaptive whereas inclusive

14:32

is something a bit more nebulous and a bit more vague.

14:35

Yeah well i mean never

14:37

before in history has so

14:40

much creativity and

14:42

so much care been directed

14:44

towards this very specific nexus

14:46

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I mean again we could probably do an

18:24

entire podcast episode on this question that I'm

18:26

about to ask you. But who

18:29

are some of significant organizations

18:31

and individuals who are working in this

18:33

realm today? The list is long so I

18:36

know that Jorg is just gonna have to pick a few.

18:40

Yeah and I'm gonna miss many so my

18:42

apologies up front. I have

18:44

to talk about Izzy Camilleri first and

18:46

Izzy Adaptive. I think the first time

18:48

I saw Izzy's website was it

18:50

may have been 10 years ago Canadian

18:52

designer and they had a

18:55

wonderful exhibit on her work in Toronto

18:57

as well. So Izzy

18:59

Adaptive, first time I'd seen leather

19:02

jackets in a wheelchair with like

19:04

a really beautiful leather jackets too.

19:06

So she's done an

19:08

amazing, I called her work up as

19:10

sort of a gold standard personally. As

19:13

far as the mainstream retail,

19:15

I love what Target is

19:17

embracing footwear as another

19:19

company and I talked to Billy a bit. He's

19:21

profiled in the book and his shoes are just

19:24

have been picked up and copied everywhere now.

19:26

You see a lot of Billy footwear styles

19:29

being used. Liberari is

19:31

another brand that I really like

19:33

and then Unhidden. There's a number

19:35

of retailers, I

19:38

think there's more retailers than we know

19:40

about. Like Aerie is

19:42

now Aerie. Victoria's Secret are

19:45

doing Adaptive underwear. There

19:47

are many retailers who

19:50

are taking a portion of

19:52

their inventory and making it

19:54

Adaptive and they may not

19:56

be blowing

19:58

it out on Instagram. For example,

20:01

Decathlon, which is a sports store

20:03

in Europe, is doing some adaptive

20:05

stuff as well. So as far

20:08

as organizations go, obviously

20:11

Runway of Dreams has done an

20:13

amazing job about bringing the topic

20:15

to the forefront of fashion. I

20:18

think what British Vogue did last year

20:20

with Telme Blair and some of the

20:22

other models that were on the cover

20:25

has really changed the game. Open

20:27

Style Lab in New York is

20:29

another organization that is doing some

20:31

wonderful stuff. Yeah, there's

20:34

just a lot out there right now

20:36

and I apologize for people I've missed

20:38

some obvious things, but I know we're

20:40

short on time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I

20:42

just can't wait to see how this grows.

20:45

In the latest Costume Institute

20:47

exhibition, Women Dressing Women, there

20:49

was an adaptive entire look

20:52

included in the exhibition by Colleen

20:54

Astrada, as modeled by Aaron

20:56

Rose Phillips, and they even had

20:58

a custom mannequin of Aaron Rose made as

21:00

well for that exhibition. So hopefully

21:02

we'll see more of this. And again,

21:04

Kate, thank you so much. We could

21:06

have made multiple, multiple episodes out of

21:09

this discussion today. So listeners, you're just going

21:11

to have to get your hand on Kate's book

21:13

to learn all about the things that we didn't

21:15

have time to cover today. Kate,

21:17

thank you so much for joining us. April,

21:20

thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure.

21:23

Kate, thank you so much for joining us

21:25

for this week to stimulate all of our

21:28

thoughts about the power of dress design

21:30

and disability. You know, this

21:32

is an enormous topic and one that is very

21:34

much on the minds of many designers

21:36

and design collectors currently. So listeners,

21:39

if you would like us to do more episodes on this

21:41

topic, please let us know. We are very happy to.

21:43

And actually, I have a couple people already on

21:45

my list, Aaron Rose Phillips,

21:47

to come on the show. So

21:49

stay tuned. So hopefully we

21:51

will see more of this. And again,

21:54

Kate, thank you so much. We could

21:56

have made multiple, multiple episodes out of

21:58

this discussion today. So listeners, You're just

22:00

going to have to get your hand on Kate's book to

22:02

learn all about the things that we didn't have time

22:04

to cover today. Kate, thank

22:06

you so much for joining us. April,

22:09

thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure.

22:12

Kate, thank you so much for joining

22:14

us for this week to stimulate all

22:16

of our thoughts about the power of

22:18

dress, design, and disability. You

22:20

know this is an enormous topic and one that

22:23

is very much on the minds of many designers

22:25

and design collectors currently. So listeners, if you

22:27

would like us to do more episodes on

22:29

this topic, please let us know. We are

22:31

very happy to. And actually, I have a

22:33

couple people already on my list, A.

22:35

Ron Rose Phillips, to come on the

22:38

show. So stay tuned. Yes.

22:41

And I also mean what I said

22:43

about having Natalie Wright on after she

22:45

finishes her book on functional fashions and

22:48

the myriad of important American designers who

22:50

participated in that initiative. And Cass, you

22:52

know me, of course, I totally rabbit-holed.

22:54

As soon as Kate mentioned this,

22:56

I was like, OK, is Natalie's

22:58

book out yet? OK, no, it's not. What

23:00

else has she published about this already? So

23:03

I did find what she had published already.

23:05

And now I'm even more intrigued just to

23:07

add on a little bit to what Kate

23:09

already mentioned in the episode when she was

23:11

telling us about Helen Cookman, who is,

23:13

of course, the hearing impaired designer

23:15

of the functional fashions line. Helen

23:17

Cookman, she did a three-year residency

23:20

at NYU to develop this

23:22

initiative. And then she also

23:24

partnered, and Cass, you're going to find

23:26

this very interesting, with the renowned fashion

23:28

editor Virginia Pope to help

23:30

produce and promote this functional fashions line.

23:33

And it ran for almost 20 years

23:35

from 1958 to 1976. Yeah,

23:39

and with Pope's backing, they showed the functional

23:41

fashion line at New York Press Week,

23:43

which was the precursor to New York Fashion

23:45

Week. And April, I didn't know what we

23:48

now call it. Adaptive design

23:50

had this whole long history in

23:52

terms of the high fashion world

23:54

promoting and embracing it. Did you?

23:56

No, I didn't. And also, there's

23:58

so so much. so much more to all

24:01

of this. I don't want to give too much away in

24:03

the case that Natalie does join us

24:06

on the show, but she notes in

24:08

her work that this was actually the

24:10

functional fashion was kind of a multi-pronged

24:13

initiative. She writes that, quote, there

24:15

was a mail order catalog for Cookman's Ensembles

24:18

requesting that other designers incorporate

24:20

Cookman's original construction solutions into

24:22

their own creations. And then

24:24

also this other offshoot of

24:26

the initiative was identifying garments

24:28

that they deemed already functional,

24:30

end quote. And in

24:32

this last category of garments already

24:34

deemed functional, one of the main

24:36

participants in this realm was Bonnie

24:39

Cashin. And this makes

24:41

perfect sense given that her work

24:43

is frequently draped and

24:45

inspired and took a lot of inspiration

24:47

by, quote unquote, non-Western styles of dress.

24:50

And this is, of course, something that Kate and

24:52

I chatted about briefly in part one of the

24:54

episode in terms of draped styles

24:56

of clothing in the context of

24:58

ancient Greece and ancient Rome allowing

25:00

for an accommodating disability. So again,

25:03

so much more to say on this topic.

25:06

Yeah. And of course, while Cashin's

25:08

designs were designated as inherently functional,

25:12

other really big companies like Levi's in

25:14

the 1970s were forging new territory in

25:17

incorporating Cookman's design solutions into their mass-produced

25:19

offerings. So they produced things like stretched

25:21

denim jeans, which was really a novelty

25:23

at the time and which we've actually

25:25

done in a past episode about, it

25:28

was really fascinating. And these

25:30

jeans featured zippers that opened and closed each

25:32

leg for ease of dressing. And

25:34

they did not sacrifice style. They featured

25:36

Western style pockets and colored

25:39

top stitching. And they were

25:41

advertised at doctor's offices. And the Levi's, what we

25:43

would now call an adaptive line of the 1970s,

25:45

never really reached the

25:48

mainstream like how props Tommy Hilfiger's adaptive line

25:50

has now. But it's really important to note

25:52

that this was 50 years ago at this

25:54

point. So there's just so much more to

25:57

impact in terms of the history of adaptive

25:59

and universal. design movements that are

26:01

getting some much deserved attention today.

26:04

Yes, and I think that I would very much

26:06

like to work more on this topic. So again,

26:08

listeners, if you want to hear more about this,

26:10

let us know. I will of course

26:13

see if Natalie would like to join us when

26:15

she finishes her book to chat more about Helen

26:17

Cookman and functional fashion. And also,

26:19

Cass and I have been wanting to invite some

26:21

models and designers working in this realm of disability

26:23

on the show for a while. Sinead

26:26

Burke has been on our list for some time.

26:28

We would love, love, love to have her if she

26:30

would join us. Yes, absolutely.

26:33

Well, dress listeners, that does it on this

26:35

topic for this week. May you consider how

26:37

the ease of your clothing impacts your daily

26:39

life next time you get dressed. Remember,

26:42

we love hearing from you. So if you'd like to write to

26:44

us, you can do so at hello at dress history.com.

26:47

And also DM us on Instagram at dress underscore

26:49

podcast, which is where we post images and

26:51

reels to accompany each week's episodes.

26:54

If you'd like to search for this

26:56

episode's Instagram content, you can search the

26:58

hashtag dress3.com. You

27:00

can also find us on our website, which is

27:03

dress history.com. And

27:05

there you can find information about any

27:07

of our upcoming classes, trips and tours.

27:10

And Cass, you have a new class open

27:12

for registration, would you like to tell our

27:14

listeners a little bit about it? Yes, I

27:16

am so excited to bring you What Women

27:18

Wore to the Revolution Part 2. You

27:21

do not have had to have taken part one to enjoy

27:24

this class. But basically, we are continuing

27:26

our exploration into the evolution

27:28

and revolution of women's fashion

27:30

across some of the most

27:32

iconic eras in fashion history. So

27:35

I'm talking about the 1930s, where you

27:37

have, you know, this crazy dichotomy between

27:39

the reality of the Great Depression and

27:41

the oat glam of like high fashion

27:43

and Hollywood. Yes,

27:45

exactly. So we'll delve into

27:47

that. And the 40s is of course defined

27:49

really by World War Two and what women wore

27:52

to work, but also how they

27:54

use their bodies and their dress bodies as

27:56

acts To represent acts of subversion

27:58

like things like the French Revolution. This tends

28:00

to often says is like Japanese

28:02

internment camps in America and then

28:04

we move into the fifties. Which of

28:07

course is the high fashion era of the

28:09

golden age of Oh Couture. And I'm actually

28:11

gonna take you behind the scenes. To meet

28:13

a lot of those women? Who work

28:15

behind the scenes in the Okafor industry

28:17

so not necessarily designers other will certainly

28:20

that of them back the models, The

28:22

fashion editors all these women behind the

28:24

scenes are really instrumental sue force in

28:26

the. Success. Of that industry in

28:28

America and in Europe and then

28:30

moving into the sixties which is

28:32

the fast and revolution where everything

28:35

everyone thought they knew about that's

28:37

an amateur body image and Irvine

28:39

area all those out the window.

28:41

it's so crazy. When you compare the

28:43

fifties and sixties assume said drastic change

28:45

self can be really fun and I

28:47

hope you will So me. And

28:50

even the Business Assassin Saints and the Nexus Six

28:52

he said must be to set of find. Out

28:54

if there's some assistance and we'll see how I

28:56

cram it into one hour one for. Not

28:58

as, but I always do my best

29:00

efforts. Sometimes cats and I are like

29:03

during his last night. Why did we

29:05

decide to talk about so much styles

29:07

and forty five an hour? It's hard

29:09

now more than weekends, his successor of

29:11

her friends. If you live or find

29:13

yourself in your city. Please

29:15

consider coming to join the at the

29:17

Metropolitan Museum of Art and ninety Minutes

29:19

at a foolish and as as in

29:21

passing history news or fourth my sense

29:24

of History Tours of the match where

29:26

I take you to send a seamless

29:28

sit in the recesses and the museums

29:30

as we seek out and of museums

29:33

most fashionable masterpieces and we're having a

29:35

blast. So far on all these tours

29:37

and I will say this we have

29:39

had many many many New Yorkers join

29:41

this tour who has afterward said wow

29:44

I did not. Know that that part

29:46

of the met existence of I have they

29:48

are all the times I'm a member. I'm

29:50

her all the time. so I'm just saying

29:52

about her working for you all Smith from

29:55

Very fun experience Bird. And this.