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what stage you're

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in. shopify.com/try. Dress, the history

1:28

of fashion is a production of dress media. With

1:36

over 8 billion people in the world, we all

1:38

have one thing in common. Every day we all

1:41

get dressed. Welcome to Dress, the

1:43

History of Fashion, a podcast that explores the

1:45

who, what, when of why we wear. We

1:48

are fashion historians and your hosts,

1:50

Cassidy Zachary. And

1:52

April Callahan. Dress listeners,

1:54

Cass and I have to admit, we

1:56

have been so busy bringing you

1:59

new original. content and also interviews

2:01

with many of the amazing authors

2:03

and makers who have new projects

2:05

out in the world currently

2:08

that we have not really been keeping

2:10

you abreast on all the latest afoot

2:12

in the world of fashion history now.

2:14

And that's what we're going to do

2:16

today. Yes,

2:18

but first, happy,

2:21

happy pride everyone.

2:24

Cass, I think you're going to double down on this

2:26

and say it's pride every day on dressed, but I

2:28

don't really talk about this too, too often. It's come

2:31

up here and there. I am

2:33

myself a member of the

2:35

LGBTQ plus community. So it

2:37

literally is pride every day.

2:39

Yes, absolutely. And that's exactly

2:42

what I was going to say, because of course we

2:44

are a podcast about fashion and

2:46

beauty history and culture, which

2:48

arguably would not exist without

2:50

the contributions of our queer

2:52

fashion history makers, movers and

2:55

shakers historically. And of course

2:57

today and dress listeners, if

2:59

you do want some pride specific

3:01

content, you can visit some of our

3:03

past episodes. April, you actually did a

3:05

fantastic episode, a mini-sode many years ago

3:07

at this point on the history of

3:10

the pride flag. Yeah. And I didn't

3:13

know that detailed history until I

3:15

started researching it. So that was kind of

3:17

one of my, you know,

3:19

I don't know, fun research based

3:21

episodes that I've ever done. Tune back into that. Yeah.

3:24

And something that I will say right off the

3:27

bat before I revisit some of our other past

3:29

episodes is that something that we are remiss in

3:31

doing, but it's not because we haven't tried to

3:33

do it, but we still very much need to

3:35

do it history of

3:38

drag culture and also the

3:40

history of barroom culture. And of

3:42

course we talked about it in the context

3:44

of the documentary Paris is Burning. I do

3:46

have an episode with the creator coming out.

3:49

It'll be more in the fall, but with

3:51

the creator behind the black beauty archive at

3:54

Camille Lawrence. And she actually has also

3:56

promised to put me in contact with historians

3:58

of all culture because she. herself

4:01

is part of a house. So that

4:03

is very, very exciting coming down the

4:05

pipeline. But of course

4:08

we've covered so many designers like

4:10

gay designers like Givenchy Dior, Charles

4:12

James. Some of my particular favorite

4:14

interviews have been about how queer

4:16

identity shapes and defines culture. So

4:19

our listeners might remember our

4:21

two part interview with non-Barry

4:23

Mary poet, performance artist and

4:25

activist and historian. A comedian.

4:28

Yes. Alok Vadminan. And

4:30

we did a two part episode

4:32

with them, De-Gendered, Fashion Past, Present

4:34

Future. Quite the historian and scholar

4:36

themselves. And they joined us

4:38

to discuss the history of sartorial

4:40

gender codes, but also legislation and

4:43

the non-gender conforming individuals who have

4:45

dared to defy those regulations and

4:47

laws historically. And then part

4:50

two of that episode was possibly one

4:52

of my most memorable of all time

4:54

because we just had the most beautiful

4:57

and moving conversation about moving

4:59

beyond the gender binary and

5:02

why it's important. And

5:04

then just also about radical self-love

5:06

and the beauty of that. Yes,

5:08

yes, yes. And speaking of gender,

5:10

of course you could also tune

5:13

back into our two part episode

5:15

on gender bending fashion with Michelle

5:17

Touligny-Finnimore. That must have been right

5:19

before the pandemic. It's 2019,

5:21

I think perhaps. And

5:24

speaking of drag, of course,

5:26

our interview with Zaldi and

5:28

those of you who do

5:30

not know exactly who Zaldi

5:32

is, you probably already do

5:34

if you are RuPaul fan

5:36

because Zaldi has pretty much

5:38

been responsible for each and

5:40

every of Ru's looks over

5:43

like the last 20 plus years

5:45

or something like that. Right? Yes.

5:47

And that was such a front

5:49

interview many years ago at this

5:51

point too, which is just bananas.

5:53

And then we'd done fashion lovers,

5:55

Dorothy Todd and Madge Garland. So

5:57

Dorothy Todd was an editor of

5:59

British Vogue. in the 20s and

6:01

the fashion editor Madge Garland was

6:03

her lover and partner and they really

6:05

transformed British Bogue into this forum for

6:07

artists, writers and other luminaries of the

6:10

modernist and queer avant-garde. That was an

6:12

excellent episode. If I do say so

6:14

myself, I guess I wrote that. Fine.

6:16

Give compliments to yourself on dress. And

6:19

then we also did Charity and Sylvia,

6:21

a same-sex marriage in early America with

6:23

Rachel Hope Cleves. That was

6:25

a fascinating book because she joined

6:28

us to discuss the incredible 44-year

6:30

love story of Taylor's Charity Bryant

6:32

and Sylvia Drake, who were recognized

6:34

and respected April as a married

6:37

couple in their small close-knit community

6:39

of Weybridge, Vermont in the early

6:41

19th century. We've

6:45

been here the whole time, friends. Exactly.

6:49

This is actually cycling into my

6:51

first topic today because we've done

6:53

interviews with two of my favorite

6:55

queer fashion artists who are Jordan

6:57

Roth and Michael Sylvan Robinson. So

7:01

Jordan, of course, is very familiar to many

7:03

of our listeners because we talk about him

7:05

and his fashion all the time, especially in

7:07

the context of the Met Gala,

7:10

one of the most exciting

7:12

fashion figures, haute couture collectors,

7:15

visual artists out there today. And

7:18

dress listener too. And

7:20

he joined us because he joined us in

7:22

2022 to talk about the art and beauty

7:24

of the fashion self. And

7:26

of course, as I said, we've been talking

7:28

about Jordan's close expressions since 2019

7:32

because he first came on, at least my

7:34

radar, after wearing a custom Iris Van Herpen

7:36

cape to the 2019 Met Gala. This

7:40

still is one of the most awe-inspiring

7:42

moments in the history of fashion

7:44

for me because it was this cape that

7:46

he, it was like a closed curtain.

7:48

And then when he opened his arms,

7:50

the theater revealed itself, the curtain opened.

7:53

It was insane. So that lives rent-free

7:55

in my head, as well as many

7:58

of his other sartorial stylings. including

8:00

his coat of many colors that

8:03

was created in collaboration with

8:05

textile artist, queer activist, past

8:07

dress guest, Michael Sylvan Robinson

8:09

for the 2020, Michael

8:11

Sylvan Robinson for the 2021 Met Gala,

8:13

and that accompanied the exhibition

8:16

in America, A Lexicon of Fashion.

8:18

So Michael actually joined us

8:20

the same year as Jordan to

8:22

discuss their thought provoking textiles

8:24

and artistic oeuvre, which spans

8:26

decades and explores the

8:28

intersection of textile and dress with this

8:30

broad range of themes from identity, gender,

8:33

sexuality, to violence, protest, and healing. And

8:36

they do it all through this

8:38

like incredibly, these incredibly beautiful, colorful

8:41

collage textile dress

8:43

pieces. And that

8:45

includes this collage coat that Michael

8:48

made for Jordan. And

8:50

Jordan actually commissioned it from Michael after he

8:52

found out about the exhibition theme. And

8:55

Jordan actually told Vogue, when I knew about

8:57

the exhibition, what it would be exploring, I

8:59

immediately went to the idea of identity, and

9:01

how for me, identity is a construction, just

9:03

as a garment is a construction. And of

9:06

course, we've talked about this coat, because that was

9:08

one of the exceptional pieces of the Met Gala

9:10

that year. And dress listeners April,

9:12

because you live in New York, you are

9:14

in for a treat, because it's

9:16

on view at New York

9:19

City's Museum of Art and Design. And

9:21

if you go to the exhibition website,

9:24

identity is was created for multifaceted

9:26

creator, tastemaker, and theater and cresario

9:28

Jordan Roth to wear at the

9:30

2021 Met Gala, a

9:32

maximalist composition in which identity

9:34

is a multifaceted creative act.

9:36

The coat and its sweeping

9:38

train are crafted from a

9:41

textile collage of elaborately patterned

9:43

fabric overworked with labor intensive

9:45

machine and hand stitched be

9:47

worked. Layers of queer

9:49

imagery and poetic text fragments are

9:51

key elements in the work of

9:53

artist Michael Sylvan. Robinson who says

9:55

name and tensions, often reminders

9:57

of the fragility of our world and

9:59

provoke a a call to healing to

10:01

action, to remembrance. So if you're in

10:03

New York, I could not find in

10:06

fashion history. And that is

10:08

because so, so, so many designers have

10:10

contributed their own designs to Barbie's now

10:12

65 year old

10:14

closet, including the House of Dior,

10:17

Carl Lagerfeld, Givenchy, Bob Mackey did

10:19

a ton of Barbie looks. Jean-Paul

10:21

Gaultier gave Barbie that iconic comb bra

10:23

at one point, Diane Van Fürstenberg's wrap

10:26

dress. I mean, we could just, we

10:28

could be here all day. So

10:31

one of their latest fashion house

10:33

collaborations, I'm very excited about this

10:35

past February in honor of Black

10:38

History Month, Barbie

10:40

and the brand Cross Colors

10:42

announced that they would have

10:44

an upcoming collaboration for Barbie.

10:47

And for any of our listeners

10:49

that might not necessarily be American

10:51

or hip hop fans, Cross Colors

10:53

is an American fashion brand, which

10:55

was started by Carl Jones and

10:57

TJ Walker, who originally had

10:59

met when they were designing for

11:01

a West Coast surf brand. And

11:04

they did a little trip to New York and they

11:06

were kind of like, maybe thinking about starting their own

11:08

line. And one day they were riding the subway and

11:10

this was in the late eighties. I think it's like

11:12

1989 or so. And

11:15

they realized there's all this amazing kind of

11:17

like street style that was based around the

11:19

hip hop scene in New York. So they

11:21

were like, you know what? This

11:24

is all coming from the underground. What if

11:26

we started an official

11:28

hip hop fashion line? And this was

11:30

a relatively untapped market at the time.

11:33

So as the LA Weekly has noted,

11:35

quote, cross colors positions itself as

11:37

a voice of urban youth with clothing

11:40

that was fashion forward and

11:42

community oriented. I

11:44

actually have a little bit, it's not

11:46

an extensive collection, but I have a small collection

11:49

of vintage cross color t-shirts. When I find them,

11:51

I buy them from the nineties. I'm

11:53

very excited about this collaboration. I think that you

11:56

will be too, Cass, because you are a fan

11:58

of all things Barbie, especially. Barbie

12:00

fashion. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

12:02

And actually, dress listeners, as you know, if

12:04

you've been listening to the podcast, we

12:07

don't talk about what we're gonna talk about

12:09

on these FHNs with each other. It

12:12

just so happens that that topic segues

12:14

perfectly into my next topic, April. Oh.

12:17

Which is the Black Barbie documentary that

12:19

is coming out. Oh, I don't know.

12:22

We do this so often. We're,

12:24

like, on the same page. Yeah,

12:26

and it goes without saying that

12:28

within this cross-colors collaboration, all

12:30

the Barbies are black. And there's three

12:33

of them. Two female dolls,

12:35

one male doll. They're decked out.

12:37

The cross-colors founders, they said, these dolls

12:39

are the flyest. Our brand

12:41

stands for clothing without prejudice, which

12:43

means diversity inclusion. And we

12:45

can't think of any better way to

12:48

amplify our message than through this collaboration.

12:50

So, add three more

12:52

Black Barbies to that list. Yes,

12:54

exactly. And a direct extension of

12:56

the groundbreaking work that

12:58

has been done by very specific

13:00

women at Mattel, and

13:02

that are the topic and subject of

13:05

this documentary, which you heard me briefly

13:07

mention and briefly talk about in that

13:10

Barbie episode, which aired last summer. At

13:12

that time, the documentary had just come out

13:14

at South by Southwest. And I

13:17

could not see it. I still have not

13:19

seen it. But it has since received many

13:21

awards and critical acclaim and very excited to

13:23

announce that it's making its debut on Juneteenth,

13:25

which is June 19th, 2024, as

13:29

part of the Shonda Rhimes universe

13:31

at Netflix, part of the Shondaland

13:33

production team. And we're gonna listen

13:35

into the film's trailer now. You've

13:38

gone your whole life and you've never seen anything made

13:40

in your own image. There is

13:43

damage done. I'm a

13:45

Barbie girl in

13:47

the Barbie world. When I think of

13:49

Barbie, I see a little white doll

13:52

with blue eyes in all

13:54

pink. That's what I think.

13:58

I just found Barbie to be... A

14:00

little light skin. You're fine. Years

14:04

ago, there were no black dolls. They

14:07

were all white dolls. The

14:09

little white girls, they could see possibility in

14:11

their Barbies. And

14:14

there was nothing that I could relate to. This

14:17

is me at the creator of Barbie. That

14:20

Mattel, I worked on the lines.

14:22

She would say, do you have

14:24

any suggestions? I was able to

14:26

say, we want a black Barbie.

14:29

That was a little act of revolution. Crowning

14:33

this doll as Barbie was telling

14:35

the world black is beautiful too.

14:39

I designed black Barbie to reflect the

14:42

total look of a black woman. She's

14:45

black, she's beautiful, she's dynamite. I

14:48

thought black Barbie felt magical. From

14:51

a young age, children can learn about inclusiveness.

14:55

Really pretty as locks. Defect

14:57

me. Black Barbie

14:59

has just taken me to a whole different

15:01

world. I

15:04

knew black Barbie was different, but

15:06

I never realized the magnitude. When

15:15

did you first fall in love with black Barbie? When

15:18

I first got one in my hand. I'm

15:20

a Barbie girl in a Barbie

15:22

world. The

15:50

origin of black Barbie goes

15:52

back years or decades prior to 1980 to 1960.

15:57

This is when Mattel factory employee

15:59

Pula Maym Mitchell made the request

16:01

of Barbie creator and Mattel founder

16:03

Ruth Handler, she asked her for a

16:06

black Barbie and Ruth Handler

16:08

replied, we'll see. And it would be another

16:11

eight years before this request was fulfilled, kind

16:13

of with the debut in 1968 of Barbie's

16:15

friend, Kristi. So

16:18

she's Barbie's friend. She's still not Barbie.

16:21

So the proper black Barbie would come

16:23

in 1980 via one Luvinnia

16:27

Kitty Black Perkins, who when she was hired in

16:29

1976, that Mattel was

16:31

the first black fashion designer to design for

16:33

Barbie ever. And she

16:35

is the woman responsible for designing the first

16:38

black Barbie. And this documentary

16:40

is exciting because it features interviews

16:42

with Bula, who was a Mattel

16:44

employee for 45 years. It

16:47

features interviews with Luvinnia Kitty Black Perkins, who I

16:49

desperately tried to get on the show, but I

16:51

could not get in contact with her. And

16:54

it also features continuing in the lineage

16:56

of designers, black designers at Barbie. An

16:58

interview with Stacey McBride, Irby, who was

17:00

a project designer for Mattel for 15

17:03

years and was the creator of the Sew in

17:05

Style line of African American Barbie

17:07

dolls. So again, what you were talking

17:10

about, April, is that part of this

17:12

long lineage, right? And evolution

17:14

and revolution of Barbie at the

17:16

hand of black creators. Today.

17:19

Yes, exactly. And

17:22

black Barbie is really groundbreaking and important

17:24

for a number of reasons, including the

17:26

fact that, of course, she's designed by

17:28

black creatives and something that as we

17:30

continue to know today, it's really instrumental

17:32

in ensuring authentic and respectful representation and

17:34

something you're going to learn all about

17:36

when you watch this film. Yes,

17:39

yes. And you know what? This is an

17:41

idea. Maybe we should do a dressed film

17:43

night and everybody can watch

17:45

it together on Netflix or, you know, do

17:47

your own thing, watch it on Netflix. And

17:49

then maybe have a meet and greet discussion

17:52

afterwards. Yeah, that would be so fun. Yeah,

17:54

if you guys want that, let us know. We were

17:57

happy to do that. Yeah. And how if you have

17:59

any suggestions about. how to do it because I looked

18:01

into doing that as part of my class. That's

18:03

coming up what Women Wore the Revolution Dress listeners

18:05

does have a book club but not a film

18:08

club element because I could not figure out a

18:10

way to do that en masse. Oh, I think

18:12

everybody just watches it on their own Netflix account.

18:14

We just all come together and then discuss.

18:17

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. I've

18:19

done some film things like that before in

18:22

the past. Okay. But before we move on

18:24

from Netflix April, you and I have not

18:26

yet discussed Bridgerton season three. Well,

18:30

the first half of Bridgerton season three.

18:32

Which is, I think tomorrow actually when

18:34

this episode comes out, it will have aired. I

18:36

may or may not have binged it, but

18:39

I'm just curious. Have you

18:41

watched it? What are your thoughts? It

18:43

has a new costume designer, new showrunner.

18:46

Absolutely. And I

18:48

watched all

18:50

of the episodes within like a

18:53

day. As we

18:55

all did. And

18:58

I did it in kind of a very fun way. My

19:00

building has a movie theater in it

19:02

that's available for tenants to like, you just book

19:04

it and you that in the movie theater is

19:06

yours. You can go in there and watch whatever

19:08

you want. And I did not invite

19:11

any of my friends. I went into the movie theater

19:14

and I watched it all by myself

19:16

in my recliner, all reclined out and

19:18

just jamming on my Bridgerton. It

19:20

was amazing. I think it's

19:22

great. I don't see a ton of

19:24

difference in terms of there being a

19:27

different showrunner. It still feels the same

19:29

to me. The costumes as

19:31

always are incredible. If not, maybe they

19:33

haven't even turned the volume up a

19:35

little bit. They definitely have turned the

19:38

volume up. They're a little more wild,

19:40

especially the Queen's wigs. And

19:42

yeah, no, I think it's

19:45

just really wonderful. And I love what they've

19:47

done with Penelope. They gave her a little

19:49

bit of like a slight makeover because now

19:51

she is the leading love interest. I

19:55

think they darkened her hair. They did.

19:57

Absolutely. And she's wearing it down now

19:59

versus up. But I've also seen

20:01

some interviews with her at press

20:03

junkets and stuff and she's very very funny the

20:06

actress I place her Well, she's I don't know

20:08

if you ever watched that Netflix show Derby girls.

20:10

Did you ever watch that? That's what she was

20:13

It's really funny. But yeah, I'm

20:15

really enjoying it as well So actually

20:18

this is the third costume designer and

20:20

the run of the show Which

20:22

I don't I can't really I can't speculate

20:24

about why there's a turnover. My guess it's

20:26

it's an tremendous amount

20:28

of work Creating all

20:31

of these costumes thousands thousands

20:33

and they all they it's

20:35

remarkable So, of course,

20:37

we did an interview with the

20:39

season one costume designer Ellen Marashnik

20:42

Quite a Hollywood designer with tons of

20:44

movies under her belt season

20:47

two was Sophie Kanale and season three

20:49

is John Glaser who I believe was

20:51

the assistant on both seat of the

20:53

first seasons He told

20:56

Vogue magazine in an interview for the first

20:58

season We threw everything but this kitchen sink

21:00

at it because we had to define the

21:03

characters very quickly So it's broad strokes and

21:05

distinct color palettes for season two

21:07

The costumes were a little bolder in color

21:09

and more period correct and this season because

21:11

of the story we're telling we thought let's

21:13

make It softer. It's more textural a little

21:16

more blurry. We layered fabrics for instance We

21:18

take a warmer color and a cooler color and combine

21:20

them I know though I

21:22

don't think Charles James trick Yes, I

21:24

thought I would describe it as softer

21:26

though. I think that's an interesting Definitely

21:29

textural because I think the especially with

21:32

Chris it is Outfits

21:34

they are out there this

21:37

season very sculptural very

21:39

fun Very playful, but I don't

21:42

know about soft. No,

21:44

I wouldn't say that either I mean,

21:46

they've definitely put Penelope and more jewel

21:48

tones. Yes, too, which compliment her her

21:50

red hair. Yeah Yeah, and I'm

21:52

a big fan. I can't wait for the next camera

21:54

out I'll be back

21:56

in the movie theater. Don't call me. Yeah, and

21:58

then of course Queen shot its wigs which

22:00

have become their own character in the film.

22:03

But I think it's really interesting too because

22:05

they're by hair and makeup designer Erika Okfitz.

22:07

People are always talking about how crazy and

22:09

out there they are but they actually have

22:12

a lot of historical precedent as we know

22:14

in the poof hairstyles of the era. So

22:16

as much as people want to talk about

22:18

how this is high fantasy, which it is,

22:21

there is still some historical precedent and that's

22:23

really how they tie it in and keep

22:25

it believable in this world is through real

22:27

historical silhouettes. And then yeah my last thing

22:30

I'm going to say on this is have you been

22:32

watching the Bridgerton wedding? I

22:34

think that's like a little thing that

22:37

they're doing on Instagram right? I

22:39

think I've seen one of them. Yes so

22:42

dress listeners you have to watch this

22:44

on Instagram Tiffany Rae and Shanti Hinton

22:46

real life Bridgerton fans are getting a

22:48

real life Bridgerton wedding. It's all playing

22:50

out on the Bridgerton Netflix account. You

22:52

have to have to have to check

22:55

it out. And also just in

22:57

time for pride which

22:59

is great too. Dress listeners we're going to

23:01

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23:03

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right, welcome back. I'm going

26:37

to move us away entirely from the realm

26:40

of fantasy and Bridgerton and

26:42

move us into some

26:44

fantastical real life fashion

26:47

that might blow your mind a little bit here. The

26:49

next item that I want to talk about is something

26:51

that we have talked about ever

26:53

so briefly on the show

26:55

before in terms of new

26:57

technological innovations. And that

26:59

is spider silk. Yes. If you have

27:01

not happened to have heard when we've

27:03

talked about it before, that's right. Those

27:06

sticky strands that depending on

27:09

your constitution either menace you

27:11

or mesmerize you have

27:13

actually for the last decade or

27:15

so been the subject of scientific

27:17

study. And that in

27:19

part is due to their tensile

27:21

strength, which those strings for that

27:23

amount of, you know, material,

27:26

their tensile strength is five times

27:29

out of steel. So

27:31

the commercial applications of spider silk

27:33

are virtually endless, which

27:35

is why companies are now

27:38

exploring spider silk's use in engineering

27:41

applications, medical applications, and

27:44

in fashion. So how

27:46

does this work? Basically, scientists have figured

27:48

out how to replicate

27:51

spider silk's proteins, and

27:54

they can isolate those and then reproduce them

27:56

in the lab synthetically. And then

27:58

using a liquid. to spun

28:00

fiber process, which is very, very similar to

28:03

how rayon is produced from liquefied

28:06

cotton proteins. It's shot

28:08

through like a spinnerette to create the

28:10

thread. So think of a liquid coming

28:12

out of your shower head. That's how

28:14

we get the strands. So that's the

28:17

same process of how they're doing artificial

28:19

spider silk. But labs are able to

28:21

now replicate spider silk alternatives for use

28:23

as fashion fibers. So in recent years,

28:26

we have seen a few

28:28

different people using them in sustainable collections

28:30

because this is a sustainable technology.

28:33

Stella McCartney has used it multiple

28:35

times North Face and

28:37

also the Japanese streetwear label

28:39

Sakai. So if

28:42

all of this sounds incredibly high tech,

28:45

it is. But in reality,

28:47

spider silk has actually been used

28:49

in fashion for more than three

28:52

centuries. So there is an

28:54

exhibition that I want to tell you all about

28:56

that's currently up right now at the Museum of

28:58

Islamic Art in Doha, Qatar,

29:00

and that is called Golden Spider

29:02

Silk. And basically this

29:04

exhibition, which is really small, it

29:06

charged the histories of

29:09

the quote, fascinating players determined

29:11

to harness this rarest of

29:13

silks from the inception of

29:15

the idea by the Frenchman

29:17

Francois Xavier Bohm in

29:20

1709 to its modern day creators end

29:22

quote. And what is

29:24

in the exhibition? We have several

29:27

historic manuscripts on the process

29:29

of producing spider silk as

29:31

fibers. And we also

29:33

have three contemporary pieces of

29:36

spider silk textiles. And

29:38

the piece that I really want to talk about is

29:40

the fourth piece in the exhibition. And it is this

29:43

mind boggling creation

29:45

of not artificial spider silk.

29:47

This is real spider silk,

29:49

and it's a cape. And

29:52

this project had a lot of different

29:54

people working on it for years. But

29:56

the kind of two head leaders of

29:58

the project were Simon Peir and

30:01

Nicholas Godley. And

30:03

basically they undertook this mission

30:05

to create a spider silk

30:07

textile, spider silk garment from

30:09

the golden orb

30:11

spider silks. And

30:14

these spiders produce this luminous

30:16

thread that is basically the

30:18

color of sunshine. So

30:20

when they process it for use as a

30:22

fashion fiber, it doesn't require any dye. And

30:25

these particular spiders that they use are

30:27

indigenous to Madagascar. They are

30:29

found in other parts of the world as well,

30:32

but they were working in Madagascar. And

30:34

Pierre said of the Cape, he said, there

30:37

is no precedent for spider silk

30:39

textiles on this scale, either

30:41

for the technical complexity or for

30:43

the quality of silk used.

30:46

So we're going to

30:48

post links to the exhibition's website so

30:50

you can see these pieces

30:52

for yourself. But again, one of

30:54

the most extraordinary things about them

30:56

is the color. It's

31:00

almost like it's metallic. It almost like

31:02

vibrates. It's so bright. And

31:05

this cape that they made is

31:08

a tour de force of patience, teamwork,

31:11

craftsmanship. The

31:13

exhibition's website tells us that the Cape

31:16

incorporates silk from 1.2 million spiders. It

31:20

took more than two years to produce, including

31:23

over 6,000 hours of embroidery.

31:26

And the imagery that's embroidered on

31:28

it tells the story of how

31:30

the spider creates a world, the

31:32

silken web out of itself. The

31:35

idea being enveloped in spider silk

31:37

was the original inspiration for this garment

31:40

of prestige, which might, in an imaginary

31:42

world, have been made for an imperial

31:44

or royal court, end quote. Some

31:47

of our UK listeners may have actually seen

31:49

this piece in person already because it was

31:51

on view in London at the V&A in

31:54

2012. And

31:57

these particular spiders that they used are

31:59

indigenous to map. Madagascar. They

32:01

are found in other parts of the world as

32:03

well, but they were working in Madagascar. And

32:06

Pierre, side of the cape, he said,

32:08

quote, there is no precedent for spider

32:10

silk textiles on this scale, either

32:13

for the technical complexity or for

32:15

the quality of silk used.

32:17

So we're going to

32:20

post links to the exhibition's website so you

32:22

can see these pieces

32:24

for yourself. But again, one of

32:26

the most extraordinary things about them

32:28

is the color. It's

32:32

almost like it's metallic. It almost like

32:34

vibrates. It's so bright. And

32:36

this cape that they made is

32:39

a tour de force of patience, teamwork,

32:43

craftsmanship. The

32:45

exhibition's website tells us that the

32:47

cape incorporates silk from 1.2 million

32:50

spiders. It took more

32:52

than two years produced, including

32:55

over 6,000 hours of

32:57

embroidery. And the imagery that's

32:59

embroidered on it tells the story

33:01

of how the spider creates a

33:03

world, the silken web, out of

33:06

itself. The idea being enveloped in

33:08

spider silk was the original

33:10

inspiration for this garment of

33:12

prestige, which might, in an imaginary world,

33:14

have been made for an imperial or

33:17

royal court, end quote. Some

33:19

of our UK listeners may have actually seen

33:21

this piece in person already because it was

33:23

on view in London at the V&A in

33:25

2012. And

33:28

the V&A also notes the work

33:30

of the embroiderers or the head

33:32

embroiderers who worked on this piece.

33:34

Their names are Lanto Rizinathindarabe, sorry

33:36

if I mispronounced that, and

33:39

Rondroferavolona. And

33:42

we're also going to post additional links

33:44

to some videos of Piers

33:46

and Godley speaking about the process of

33:48

collecting the spider silk from the wild. And

33:51

we just want to emphasize here

33:53

that no spiders were harmed in this

33:55

process. They were actually foraged by about

33:57

a team of 60 people. every

34:00

single day looking for the spiders.

34:03

That is remarkable. Yeah. And

34:06

also not a job I would even remotely

34:08

want. I am terrified of

34:10

spiders. Yeah. Well, they would

34:12

take them and they would place them in

34:15

a little enclosure, like, spin

34:17

their soap. Unwind, yeah. They would

34:19

spin their soap for about 20 to 25 minutes, and

34:21

then they were released back into the

34:23

wild, completely unharmed. So you're

34:26

going to learn more about this process if you

34:28

watch the video, The Cape's Creation, which we also

34:30

see. It's really spectacular. And

34:32

trust me, this is going to be

34:34

the most interesting seven minutes of your

34:36

week if you click on our

34:38

link in the show notes and watch this video. Yeah.

34:41

And I definitely did have this bookmark to talk

34:44

about on an FHN. I did not have it

34:46

bookmarked for today, but I'm really glad that you

34:48

did because it is just exceptional.

34:50

I was stopped in my tracks when

34:52

it came up on my feed and

34:55

I am on their website right now. And

34:57

something we also might want to mention is

35:00

that this is actually a companion exhibition to

35:02

another fashion exhibition at this museum. So

35:05

if you are able to make it, it's a double

35:07

hitter because there's an exhibition

35:09

fashioning and Empire textiles from Safavid

35:11

Iran. So this exhibition highlights the

35:13

critical role that silk played during

35:15

this period, which was 1501 to

35:17

1736 CE. And

35:21

just a little blurb from the website, it

35:23

says silk, its complex manufacturing process and supple

35:25

fill against the skin, make it a valuable

35:27

and highly prized luxury good. Since

35:30

the sixth century CE, Iran has

35:32

produced high quality silk, widely appreciated

35:35

and traded long distances. It is,

35:37

however, during the reign of Iran's most

35:39

prominent ruler in modern history, Shah Abbas first

35:41

the great 1588 to 1629 that silk became

35:44

a state controlled industry. It

35:48

boosted the country's economy by supplying both

35:50

an eager internal demand and

35:52

feeding a vigorous export market spanning

35:54

England to Thailand. So

35:59

this exhibition was a double hitter. actually born out of

36:01

collaboration with the National Museum of Asian

36:03

Art in DC and explores the development

36:05

of the silk industry under Shaw Abbas.

36:07

And who says that fashion isn't political?

36:09

It is. And

36:13

we have not done a silk specific episode,

36:15

but that again is... Silk

36:18

Road? Yes, we need to do a Silk Road

36:20

episode. The V&A had an excellent silk exhibition a

36:22

few years ago. I mean, there's just so many,

36:25

so many topics, so little time, but definitely

36:27

check out these exhibits. And if you can't

36:29

make it there, there's plenty of visual content

36:31

for you to access digitally. All

36:33

right. So apparently I'm

36:35

very into textiles today, listeners.

36:38

I would like to talk about the

36:40

work of Korean artist Choi So-young. And

36:43

Cass, you know that before

36:45

I became a fashion historian, I was a

36:47

contemporary art gallerist for like 10 years almost.

36:50

So art is also one of my great

36:52

interests. And when art and fashion collide, as

36:54

they often do, this is very

36:56

thrilling. And that's why I

36:58

was very excited to discover the work

37:01

of Choi So-young a few months ago.

37:03

I have to admit, I

37:05

am a bit behind in learning about

37:07

her work as it seems that she

37:09

was really garnering a ton

37:11

of international attention around that same time when

37:14

I left the art world. Have you seen

37:16

her right before? Do you know who I'm

37:18

talking about by any chance? I

37:20

do, but I don't know anything

37:23

about her specifically. So do tell.

37:25

Yes, listeners, her work is amazing.

37:27

She basically uses discarded garments and

37:30

especially denim. She has a particular

37:32

fondness for denim and using jeans

37:35

to create these textural collages

37:38

of urban landscapes and city scene.

37:40

They end up being just a

37:42

little bit 3D because of the

37:44

nature of using textiles and like

37:46

a 2D type of artwork. And

37:49

those textiles are mounted either on canvas

37:51

like a painting or on panel. And

37:54

sometimes she uses a limited amount of

37:56

acrylic paint in her work as well.

37:58

But I had to say, like what are

38:00

they? They're more like collages, right? And

38:03

I'm gonna quote the Asian art database here when I'm

38:05

describing her work, because I think they did a really

38:07

good job. They said, quote, her

38:10

compositions formed from a medley of

38:12

pockets, seams and zips in

38:14

conjunction with acrylic, lay the foundations

38:16

for alleyways, high rises and vistas.

38:18

Like a game of where's Wally?

38:20

It becomes more and more rewarding

38:22

what you can spot. A

38:24

back pocket with creases like a river's

38:27

wave, a bleached twill that reaches into

38:29

the sky like a cloud covered mountain,

38:31

or simply a belt buckle balcony,

38:34

resting static and unassuming in a

38:36

dense Korean cityscape. By using the

38:38

throwaways of one's world and

38:40

some of the most polluting industries

38:42

so young as aligning herself with the

38:45

circular economy by giving new life

38:47

to discarded items. And we

38:49

love nothing more than this on dress.

38:51

It has a little bit of everything

38:54

and her pieces are so beautiful. They're

38:56

like endlessly enthralling. And apparently

38:58

I'm not the only one who feels

39:00

this way because in

39:02

2011, one of her pieces sold

39:05

at auction. So

39:07

this is not on the primary retail market. This

39:09

is at auction at Christie's Hong

39:11

Kong for more than $276,000. Dang,

39:16

I was like, can we

39:18

get something for work? No,

39:20

but I mean, these are, this is art. If

39:23

you even look at them first, like your

39:25

first glance at them, you

39:27

don't notice that they're textiles. It looks like a

39:29

photograph or a painting. And a really good one

39:31

too. Also very interesting, again,

39:34

Asian art database goes on to note

39:36

that before she was 30, she

39:39

had sold more than $2 million of her

39:41

work on the auction market,

39:44

an achievement that was only

39:46

ever attained by the Chinese artists

39:48

Gao Yu and Jean-Richel Basquiat.

39:50

Wow. Yeah, so

39:52

staggering success. And then all of a

39:55

sudden she seems to disappear from

39:57

the art world. I think she's, as our,

40:00

her work

40:02

has come up on the auction market here

40:04

and there in the last ten years.

40:07

But the latest contemporaneously produced press that

40:09

I can find on her dates to

40:12

2013, so more than ten years ago.

40:16

She doesn't appear to have a current website.

40:18

She doesn't appear to have a social media

40:20

presence. And I consider myself

40:23

to be a pretty competent internet sleuth.

40:25

So I'm very curious about her, what

40:28

happened to her. She stopped making work.

40:31

And we do have listeners in Korea. So

40:34

if any of you hear this and you happen to

40:36

know more about her, let us know. If she's open

40:38

to it, I would love to have her on the

40:40

show to chat about her work, cuz I think it's

40:42

that fantastic. Absolutely. I

40:45

mean, dress listeners, there's so much to

40:47

discuss, honestly. We have to limit ourselves

40:49

because April and I would just keep

40:51

talking and talking and we bookmark so

40:53

many things that we wanna talk about

40:55

and we cannot possibly

40:58

get to all of them. But I think

41:00

today we've given you many interesting things to

41:02

do, to read, to

41:04

look at, to look up and explore.

41:06

And that's really the point of these

41:08

FHNs, is to inspire you to continue

41:10

learning about fashion history and

41:12

things that are really accessible to

41:14

you today. Which includes things

41:16

like our upcoming fashion history tour

41:19

of Paris Dress listeners, which actually-

41:21

That was a good segue cast.

41:25

You only have a couple more weeks to

41:27

register for it if you wanna join us

41:29

in Paris for the second week, October 12th

41:31

through the 19th. All

41:34

of that information is on our website, dresshistory.com.

41:37

But there is unfortunately a deadline, so if we

41:40

don't fill it up, we don't get at least

41:42

15 people in the next two weeks, then alas,

41:44

we will not be able to move forward. So

41:46

if you wanna join us, please do, please reach

41:48

out to us. And please also

41:50

consider signing up for the What Women

41:53

Wore to the Revolution class 1930s to 1960s, which

41:56

is starting June 23rd. Lots

41:58

for you to do this summer.