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Master Trust Drive time on Or

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T Radio Warning: Listen back on

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the Or T radio app. It's

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thirty years since a Royal Airforce

0:20

Chinook helicopter crashed and the Ball

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of Kintyre in Scotland. There were

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no survivors, all twenty five passengers

0:27

and for crew were killed in

0:29

the crash. Among the passengers were

0:31

security services experts, members of the

0:34

Are you See on the British

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Army, including the majority of the

0:38

Uk senior Northern Ireland Intelligence and

0:40

Counter Terrorism experts. This weekend, sixteen

0:42

of the bereaved families have joined

0:44

to form the Chinook Justice Campaign.

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They're looking for access to documents and

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answers about their family members debts on

0:51

behalf of the Chinook Justice Campaign. Were

0:54

joined now by Uk based human rights

0:56

lawyer Cool and gotta her, Casey I

0:58

by David Walmsley, editor in chief at

1:00

Canada's Globe and Mail Newspaper. You're both

1:03

very welcome indeed to the program. I

1:05

might turn to you David First of

1:07

all because as a young journalists of

1:09

the Belfast Telegraph a you cover this

1:12

story from from the beginning and you

1:14

still do take us right back to

1:16

the second of. June Nineteen Ninety Four,

1:18

What Happened. Thanks.

1:21

Very much Cormac Girls. Great opportunity to to

1:23

tell the story. So on the second of

1:25

June the yeah the aircraft crashed at around

1:27

six o'clock in the evening and by seven

1:30

o'clock it was hitting the news headlines and

1:32

people at a sense that there was a

1:34

very significant use of and it soon became

1:36

clear it was a military helicopter and by

1:39

later in the evening it was no another.

1:41

were twenty nine people on board so I

1:43

was over on the molecules are up and

1:45

left the Belfast newsroom early on. The third

1:48

of June wasn't a like close to the

1:50

scene because. It had happened at an

1:52

isolated area by the moloch entire lighthouse

1:54

but it was clear that point through

1:56

the twenty nine people were they were

1:58

say there were two. and i use the

2:01

special branch nine military uh...

2:03

officers including most intelligence five m i five

2:05

and one civil servant working for the northern

2:07

island office so it was the largest loss

2:10

of life that we had seen in a

2:12

single incident involving the security forces in

2:14

the thirty years of the troubles and what kind

2:16

of information that i've been journal for you getting

2:19

from the authorities about the crash of the people

2:21

at the time they've well

2:23

at the time it was a very muddy

2:26

uh... response at first the government said that

2:28

the names of the m i five uh...

2:30

members should not be released in the realize

2:33

within twenty four hours that was impractical and and

2:35

they did a lot for the names to be

2:37

released but the uh... the certainly

2:39

the comments from the the officials who were in

2:41

and around the scene were saying you know this

2:43

was a shinoq helicopter it was a very uh...

2:46

well-understood reliable helicopter but there was no

2:48

reference to the fact that it was

2:50

actually a mark two helicopters

2:53

a new version of the helicopter wasn't

2:55

understood and we discovered many many years

2:57

later that it wasn't trusted by

3:00

the pilots were flying it there were

3:02

a number of investigations uh... after the crash

3:04

were in there what what came of them

3:08

that's right the the biggest one i suppose

3:10

in the immediate aftermath was of the fatal

3:12

accident inquiry which was reviewing a decision that

3:14

would be made by the royal air force

3:16

board of inquiry and uh... the are a

3:19

a board of inquiry had said without

3:21

any evidence that the pilots were gross the

3:23

negligent they the two senior reviewing

3:25

officers simply said it was their opinion of

3:27

the palace for gross the negligent enough opened

3:30

up a real sore with the families and

3:32

uh... feeling was very much well

3:34

how can you say that when there's no survivor

3:36

there's no eyewitnesses no radar traces no

3:38

black box recorder on board and and

3:40

it became a real uh... critical

3:43

for so many people to say if you're going to

3:45

say that you're going to have to show us the

3:47

fatal accident inquiry which took place in scotland a

3:50

couple years later was looking at the issues

3:52

and in the end the the sheriff the

3:54

judge in scotland to review the case he

3:57

said that the finding was unsafe and that

3:59

the pilots Should not have been blamed. It

4:02

went from there to the House of Commons to the

4:04

Defense Select Committee to the House of Commons Public

4:07

Affairs Committee and ultimately to the House of

4:09

Lords where Lord Philip did a

4:11

review together with a number

4:13

of law lords and they concluded that the

4:15

finding equally was unsafe and in fact Cormac

4:18

what's interesting is That of all the evidence

4:20

that has come out over the last 30

4:22

years There hasn't been a single

4:24

piece of evidence that supports

4:26

the idea that the pilots were at fault

4:30

Do you know it really strikes me

4:32

as you're talking David that the knowing

4:34

sense of injustice the families the bereaved

4:36

Families must feel all of these years

4:38

later because it took 17 years for

4:41

that verdict

4:45

of negligence to be overturned and Ever

4:48

since then no cause for the crash

4:50

outlined no documents coming

4:52

forward no explanation And

4:54

I suppose stay with me. I'll bring in

4:56

Krielin Gallagher Casey at this point I suppose

4:59

this is where you come in now This

5:01

is a for the very first time in a

5:03

combined effort for all of the families who are

5:05

bereaved and involved in this That's

5:08

right. So as you said at the start

5:10

Cormac it's 16 families who came together today

5:12

to launch the Trenith justice campaign

5:14

But in fact over the course of the day

5:16

a number of additional families Have

5:18

pledged their support too, and it's the first time they've

5:21

come together as a group But

5:23

you know too many listeners they will

5:25

know of other cases which involve bereaved

5:27

families Victims of injustice left

5:29

for decades without answers to the most

5:31

basic fundamental questions About what

5:33

went wrong and why the Stardust fire

5:36

the Hillsborough disaster the post office

5:38

scandal the infected blood inquiry and

5:40

to that list We've got to add at

5:43

this Chinook disaster because we're now in a situation

5:45

where 30 years ago 29

5:48

people went to work never came home to their

5:50

families and although there have been a

5:52

series of processes over the years All

5:54

they've done is they've told us now what

5:56

did not happen ie the pilots

5:58

were not grossly negligent not what did

6:01

happen and why. And the families

6:03

have been left after three decades with no

6:05

answers. And shockingly, in

6:07

the last number of months, many of them have

6:09

found out that in fact

6:11

key documents related to the case have

6:13

been locked away for 100 years till 2094. Why?

6:17

Many of my clients are in

6:19

their 70s and have been waiting for justice for a

6:21

long time. And the documents will only be revealed

6:24

long after they're gone. Yeah. And

6:26

my question is why we know

6:28

documents of a sensitive nature are sealed very

6:30

often. But why for 100 years? Is that

6:32

common in situations? Well,

6:34

the short answer is no, it's not common. It's

6:38

relatively, it's extremely unusual

6:40

and unprecedented in a case like this,

6:42

because these are documents which go to

6:44

the most basic questions about

6:46

what happened and whether anything went

6:48

wrong, whether concerns about airworthiness of

6:51

the Mark II were known to

6:54

the Ministry of Defence at the time, what

6:56

decisions were taken. Now, of course, because of

6:58

the nature of the people on board, there

7:00

may be sensitivities, which require

7:02

reductions, for example, to documents.

7:05

But locking away wholesale, the entire documents

7:07

for 100 years, is deeply

7:09

shocking. And this is a

7:11

situation where the bereaved families all

7:13

have fundamental rights under the European

7:15

Convention to an

7:18

adequate, swift investigation, which is

7:20

effective and which involves them.

7:23

And they have never had that in 30

7:25

years, which is shocking. What

7:27

specifically then? I know you say that

7:29

the families have never got answers, but

7:32

what specifically are they looking for? So

7:35

at this stage, as the families have come together, and with

7:37

it being a very sensitive weekend, obviously

7:39

with the anniversary falling on Sunday on the

7:42

2nd of June, at this stage, their

7:44

requests are twofold. We'd

7:46

call them the two A's. They want

7:49

access to all of the documents, and

7:51

they want answers about what happened. That's their

7:53

two main focuses. Modest requests, you would think,

7:56

and things which bereaved families really shouldn't have

7:58

to be fighting for three days. This

8:00

could be done, C I'm

8:30

sure it's quite possible that relatives of those who were on board

8:32

and the crew in particular

8:45

have gone to their graves

8:49

without ever knowing what really happened, without

8:51

ever feeling a sense of justice. And

8:54

unless the documents are released, there is the

8:56

possibility that more relatives will go to their

8:59

graves. And they all gather

9:01

together, David, this weekend, as we alluded

9:03

to there, in the Mull of Kintyre,

9:05

for a memorial. How

9:08

poignant will that be? How hopeful do you think

9:10

they are of getting answers

9:12

this time? Well,

9:15

I think what's striking about this is that many

9:17

of those who are looking for these answers and this

9:19

access are the children. The children,

9:21

three of whom were not born at

9:23

the time of their father's deaths, and many of

9:25

them who were primary school children at the time, who

9:28

have now turned into their late 30s or their

9:30

40. And for

9:32

some of them, for the first time, I've spoken

9:34

to them there saying we didn't really have any

9:36

idea that this was something that was

9:38

unanswered. We'd taken at face

9:40

value what the government had said. But

9:42

there are clues throughout the last 30 years.

9:44

So John Major, who was the prime minister,

9:46

Malcolm Rifkind, who was the defense secretary, they

9:48

both felt that the pilots being blamed was

9:51

unfair. And they felt that they had been poorly

9:53

briefed by their officials. So when

9:55

you imagine that a memo that was uncovered the

9:57

day before the crash that said that the aircraft...

10:00

aircraft should not be flown because it was

10:02

not airworthy and yet the passengers were put

10:04

on board. Just causes

10:06

extreme outrage and upset for the families

10:08

especially at the 30th anniversary and

10:11

if that one memo that was

10:13

obtained through good journalistic investigations was

10:16

turned up what is there in the official

10:18

record that could be freed up so there

10:20

could be a better understanding if not indeed

10:22

a definitive answer. And

10:24

finally Kiellen, the

10:27

last stinging irony in poignancy here is that

10:29

these people worked for the state and they

10:31

wanted to believe what the state was saying. Yeah,

10:35

that's exactly right and these are people

10:37

who dedicated their lives to working for

10:39

the state and working on the most

10:41

sensitive of issues and that

10:44

really adds to the sense of injustice

10:46

now. It's a state really on the

10:48

UK that this has happened and that

10:51

it remains unresolved so after

10:54

so many years and it's worth saying also

10:56

that of course this happened just very shortly

10:58

before the first of the

11:00

IRA cease-fires in the 1990s and

11:02

it's at a time which is critical to the peace

11:05

process and of course what you get when

11:07

you have an information vacuum and you don't

11:09

have clear answers is that conspiracy theories tend

11:11

to grow in proportion to the silence of

11:13

the state too. So the families

11:15

have also had to deal with disinformation conspiracy

11:17

theories over the years too. Could

11:20

I just add David mentioned the issue about

11:22

the children of Chinook and many of my

11:24

clients, they range from people who are now

11:26

very elderly and as you

11:28

say a number of family members have indeed

11:30

died without ever getting justice and

11:33

that some of them are much younger and one of the

11:35

individuals who is

11:37

supporting the campaign and spearheading it is Matthew

11:39

Tobias and he was aged 10 when his

11:41

father was killed. He's now 40 and that

11:43

gives you a real sense of what the

11:45

families are dealing with. The citizens dominated their

11:47

entire lives and they decided today enough

11:50

is enough and they want this to be resolved

11:52

as quickly as possible. And all they want are

11:54

answers. Look we'll keep an eye on the Chinook

11:56

Justice campaign. A UK human

11:58

rights lawyer, Creelan Gellan. Dalla Herr Casey

12:00

and David Wonsley, Editor-in-Chief at the Globe and

12:03

Mail. Thank you both very much indeed.