0:00

Hello friends welcome to the DTFH.

0:02

I want to thank all of

0:04

my Listeners and all of

0:06

my watchers those of you are watching

0:09

this on YouTube you have become part

0:11

of what will be history I'm essentially

0:13

the Oppenheimer of video

0:15

podcasting. I've split the podcasting

0:17

Adam I have raised a

0:20

trail into the future now if you

0:22

go on YouTube you will see that

0:24

there's so many video podcasts Whereas there

0:26

used to be Goose

0:28

eggs zero until I

0:30

started doing it and I am not

0:33

proud of myself. I'm a humble man. I

0:35

follow the Lead

0:38

of the Silver Angel who comes to me

0:40

when I haven't had enough sleep or

0:42

have had too much speed and the Silver

0:44

Angel told me You

0:47

got to go video and I said to

0:49

the Silver Angel Are you sure if I

0:51

do that if I start a video podcast,

0:53

I will be ridiculed. I will be banished

0:55

I will probably be kicked out

0:57

of my book club and the Silver

0:59

Angel Just smiled and I

1:01

know that smile that smile means that

1:03

if I don't do what she says,

1:05

I'll shit my bed She only comes

1:07

to me at night. So I did

1:10

it and was I ridiculed? Yes,

1:13

there was an attempted Crucifixion

1:15

of yours truly in my very

1:17

own neighborhood when the neighbors heard what I

1:19

was doing They dragged me out of my

1:22

house and they tried to crucify me But

1:24

because I've been working out I was able

1:26

to pull my arms down from those nails

1:28

Which is a really interesting thing to think

1:31

about not to like getting the crucifixion territory

1:34

But it does seem like if

1:36

you were crucified, it wouldn't be that hard

1:38

to pull your hands off But then I

1:40

guess you just fall forward which would be

1:42

incredibly painful The point is I

1:44

did fall forward but because I have really

1:46

strong calves from doing a

1:49

series of hardcore Pilates exercises

1:51

With my girlfriend's Janine and

1:54

Lene I was able to pull my feet

1:57

completely off of the crucifix do a

1:59

triple Elvin Ring style

2:01

roll, making me invulnerable to

2:03

the knives that my neighbors

2:06

were throwing at me. And then a leg

2:08

sweep took them down. They both hit their

2:10

head really hard and they're still in the

2:12

hospital. I will not press charges. Don't worry,

2:14

Gary, and don't worry, Tim. Just

2:17

please don't try to ambush me

2:19

anymore and crucify me in my own neighborhood

2:21

in front of my kids. Because if you

2:23

do that, you know, fuck around and find

2:25

out. Today's guest,

2:27

Mitch Horowitz, is brilliant. He's

2:30

written probably more books than

2:32

I've read. I would

2:34

highly recommend The Miracle Club. He's written so

2:37

many books on manifestation, on magic, but I

2:39

know what you're thinking. Some people when they

2:41

hear that, their eyes roll back in their

2:43

head and they're like, I don't want to

2:46

hear about any manifestation bullshit.

2:48

I'm telling you, Mitch,

2:50

his ability to write about the

2:52

paranormal, to write about fringe topics

2:55

that a lot of people, when

2:57

they try to write about it,

2:59

it just comes across as bullshit.

3:02

His ability to apply logic and

3:04

rational thinking to topics that normally

3:06

get completely rejected by the mainstream

3:09

is a true talent, which is

3:11

why I'm so happy that he

3:13

got his own show on the

3:16

Discovery Channel, Alien Encounters. If you

3:18

are listening to this, if this

3:20

even comes out on June 19th,

3:23

check it out. It's Alien Encounters on the

3:25

Discovery Channel. And during this episode, we don't

3:28

just talk about aliens, of course we do,

3:30

but we talked about the bigger picture,

3:33

this strange reality we

3:35

all exist in, where

3:37

we live in a

3:39

situation that at any

3:41

given moment, the

3:44

unknown becomes known. And

3:46

sometimes when that happens,

3:48

it completely changes everything

3:51

forever. I mean, we've always

3:53

had lightning, I'm guessing, but

3:55

think of the moment we

3:58

harnessed the power. of

4:00

electricity, of fire, of

4:03

artificial intelligence. It's these moments

4:06

where the unknown leaks

4:08

into the known, the impossible

4:11

becomes possible, that shockwaves are

4:13

released through history. Cultural

4:17

shockwaves, it changes the

4:19

culture. Physical shockwaves, suddenly

4:22

we start seeing things we've never seen before.

4:24

For example, for an old man

4:26

like me, it's a real weird thing to

4:29

see a self-driving car. No one

4:31

in it, just tootling along by

4:33

itself, as though driven by a

4:35

ghost. That is still shocking

4:37

to me, probably in the

4:40

same way that it was shocking

4:42

to see cars when they first

4:44

started appearing on the scene. The

4:46

point is, Mitch Horowitz is

4:48

a master of finding

4:50

a nice, solid,

4:53

balanced point of view when

4:55

it comes to stuff that usually

4:58

is either addressed in a kind

5:00

of manic, irrational

5:03

way, or in a

5:06

hardcore, skeptical way where it's all

5:08

refuted. Mitch is the middle

5:11

way. So I really hope

5:13

that you will check out

5:15

Alien Encounters on the Discovery

5:17

Channel. But first, listen

5:19

to this great episode with

5:22

Mitch Horowitz. lack

5:25

of spark playing

5:51

Welcome back to the DTFH man.

5:53

I am so thrilled

5:56

that you have what I always knew you

5:58

should have a show alien

6:01

encounters. Tell me all about it.

6:04

Thank you so much, man. I've wanted a

6:06

show since I've been old enough to

6:08

talk. And I've been

6:11

very public about this in my

6:13

books. Not to be morbidly disclosing,

6:15

but because as a

6:17

seeker, especially when I'm writing in a

6:19

practical vein, you

6:22

have to deliver bluntness. You have to deliver

6:24

frankness. Because that's what I'm asking of the

6:26

reader, to be frank with him or herself.

6:28

What do you really want? Right. It's

6:31

the weirdest thing, Duncan. Like when

6:34

I was on the set in Roswell, and we were

6:36

shooting the show, I got

6:39

up every goddamn day

6:42

and I felt great. And that usually

6:44

doesn't happen to me. Like everybody, days

6:46

are a roller coaster. Days are a

6:49

cycle. And when you're shooting something especially,

6:51

it's such an intense thing. Absolutely.

6:53

And Gerrita made the observation

6:55

in his journals that he

6:57

found days were cyclical. Many

6:59

people find that days are

7:02

just this kind of revolving

7:04

door of different moods,

7:06

activities, experiences. Every

7:09

day was a peak day.

7:11

And the weird thing is, I've

7:14

worked towards a show for, wow,

7:19

it must be more than 15 years, more than 15 years.

7:22

And like anybody who's done it, I've

7:25

given to saying recently

7:27

that screen development is living

7:29

hell kept by crushing disappointment.

7:32

Yes. Everybody knows that. Everybody

7:34

knows that. And I

7:37

remember once I was telling Whitley Streber, author

7:39

of Communion, who's a friend, and

7:42

Whitley's worked in Hollywood for

7:44

decades. He calls it hellywood.

7:47

And I said

7:49

to him, Whitley, statistically, I could prove

7:51

that nothing ever gets made. It's a

7:53

statistical fact. I don't give a fuck

7:56

what you see. And he

7:58

cracked up because everybody involved knows. it,

8:00

everybody knows it. And yet at the same

8:02

time, if you didn't go through all that

8:04

effort, then the thing

8:06

that seems serendipitous would not occur.

8:09

The serendipity wouldn't be there without

8:11

the call it the advanced

8:13

payment of debt. And I'm

8:15

out in LA, visiting

8:18

my partner's brother.

8:21

And I get a call from

8:23

a producer, Chris Sanders, and he

8:26

is working on developing a

8:29

production company and Discovery Channel, this

8:31

show. Anyway, long story short, the

8:33

thing came together in weeks. You

8:36

have to fall, busting effort

8:38

and tears and, you know, sitting

8:40

in public parks saying I'm a

8:42

failure. And

8:44

I loved it. And I wouldn't

8:46

I mean, that never happens. I've

8:50

never heard of that happening. I

8:53

don't know any stories of that happening. Like

8:56

the the what

8:58

you're talking about, I've heard described as development

9:01

hell. And all

9:03

of us know people who have

9:05

brilliant ideas and are brilliant people. And

9:07

they sell the idea to a network

9:09

and they get a script

9:11

deal. And then in

9:13

the midst of writing the script, whoever

9:16

decided that they were going to squeeze the trigger

9:18

on the script deal inevitably leaves. And so now

9:20

a new guy comes in, he studies what they

9:23

have. He wants to do budget cuts. He didn't

9:25

get the script deal. He doesn't like it. And

9:27

also he wants to like do

9:29

his things his way. And so your

9:31

script that you just worked on for

9:34

not just like this six months or

9:36

whatever that it was in production, but

9:38

probably a year of development in your

9:41

own mind and working on it and

9:43

the pitch meetings you took. Yeah,

9:45

man, that's brutal. That's incredible. So you

9:48

guys, so for you somehow, you

9:51

just in a couple of

9:53

weeks got a TV show. Well, take

9:55

this. I read something in

9:58

one of these self-help books. from the 1950s

10:01

that always stayed with me. I must have read this 10 years

10:03

ago. There's a book from the 50s

10:05

called How I Took

10:08

Myself From a Failure to

10:10

a Success in Selling by

10:13

a guy named Frank Becker. Frank

10:15

Becker. So Frank was

10:17

a lifelong salesman and he said, there

10:19

is a natural law that

10:22

every salesman knows and that

10:24

is that you make 100 phone calls and

10:27

you get nowhere. And then seemingly out

10:29

of the blue comes that one phone

10:31

call that makes your season. But

10:33

one phone call wouldn't have come had you

10:35

not made the other 100. That

10:38

seemed like a waste of time. And he says, every

10:40

salesperson can tell you this is true and none of

10:42

us know why. And I thought, I

10:45

know that that's correct in

10:47

his own way. And I hate to sound

10:49

like I'm glibly matching up

10:52

radically different figures, but in his

10:54

own way, Jack Gurjev made the

10:56

exact same observation. He

10:59

said there is something lawful about unflinching

11:01

persistence. And he has in the most

11:04

literal sense. Now, I would also argue

11:06

that there are countervailing measures. There are

11:08

accidents, there are wars, there are disasters.

11:10

There are things that interrupt a life.

11:12

But absent that, I do believe

11:15

in this paradigm that Gurjev described and

11:17

I believe in Frank's observation. I know

11:19

it's true. And I know that these

11:21

serendipitous events would never occurred had I

11:23

not been screaming into a pillow for

11:26

14 years, trying

11:28

to hold it up. It's not a waste of time. No.

11:31

And you know, when you're doing it, it's

11:33

in your best days, you know it's not

11:35

a waste of time. I mean, it feels

11:37

right. Like even though what you're

11:39

doing doesn't in that moment

11:42

maybe produce the results you're hoping, if

11:44

you just observe the feeling state

11:47

of making the thing regardless of

11:49

whatever the world is telling you,

11:51

for some reason that feels right.

11:54

You know, this is what

11:56

I'm supposed to be doing. And you do it. Isn't

11:58

that weird? It makes

12:00

you feel crazy though because people around

12:02

you will look at you and think,

12:04

my God, you're failing. This is not

12:06

going to work. Yeah.

12:09

Because they love you. They really do.

12:11

It's a loving thing. They don't realize that

12:13

they're potentially wrecking your future

12:16

with their fear, but you

12:18

can feel nuts. And I have, I'm

12:21

a big advocate of

12:23

various kinds of new thought, mind

12:25

metaphysics, and I feel it's really

12:28

important that people be frank

12:30

with themselves about their aim. Nothing perfumed

12:32

and nothing that you have to share

12:34

with anybody else but be super frank.

12:37

And I've had instances, I could probably pull

12:40

out notebooks on this bookshelf behind me where

12:42

I wrote down, I've failed. My aim has

12:44

failed. I need to go get a new

12:46

one, figure out what you want to do,

12:48

become a professional chess player or whatever. But

12:51

this has failed. And there

12:54

were such days. And I always found that

12:56

when a wish is authentic, it reasserts its

12:58

pull on you. It's like you have no

13:00

right to relinquish it. It just keeps coming

13:02

back in. Right. Like the tide, no matter

13:04

what you do. And if that happens, you're

13:06

lucky. You may suffer, but you're going to

13:08

get somewhere. That's my question at least. Well,

13:11

I mean, so this show,

13:13

I want

13:15

to reiterate, the first time I met you,

13:18

I thought, man, he needs to be the

13:20

host of a show. I

13:22

would love to watch that. But

13:25

this show, I think

13:27

is so important right now

13:30

because obviously there have been

13:32

many, many shows about aliens,

13:34

many, many shows about UFOs. But

13:37

for the maybe the first time in history,

13:42

now it doesn't seem

13:44

like quackery in the way that you

13:47

used to. We have all

13:50

the major news networks. We

13:52

have the New York Times. We

13:54

have countless respected

13:57

sources saying over

13:59

and over. and over again that

14:01

something is being observed that

14:05

fits the model

14:08

that we all have for UFOs. Or

14:11

at the very least, the same

14:13

kind of technology we thought UFOs would

14:15

use. So I have yet to watch your

14:18

show, but how

14:20

much did you get into the modern

14:24

phenomena that has

14:26

been, was reported so much?

14:28

And it kind of seems like it's been memory-old.

14:32

Well, I hope there's

14:34

new stuff coming. I think

14:36

we're getting better evidence. I

14:40

think we might be on the threshold of

14:42

material evidence. We talk about a fragment

14:44

of metal on the show that is, I think,

14:46

a reasonable piece of evidence to be

14:48

argued over. One

14:51

of the things I noticed and that I really

14:54

grooved to as we were doing the show is

14:56

that it occurred to me, seeking

15:00

people across centuries have all

15:02

been having the same conversation

15:06

about encounters with unknown intelligences,

15:08

unknown phenomena, and we're all

15:10

just using the vocabulary that

15:12

belongs to our generation. So

15:14

today, somebody would say, a

15:17

UFO, a UAP, an alien,

15:20

a tall gray. 150

15:23

years ago, somebody might have said spirit

15:25

poltergeist or goblin, for that matter. And

15:29

everybody changes their

15:31

language to get

15:33

down with whatever is most

15:35

ready-made and familiar at

15:37

their particular cultural moment. And

15:39

I was really struck listening to some

15:41

of these people how they might describe

15:43

an encounter with a strange being or

15:45

strange lights in the sky that would

15:47

have been radically different 150 years ago,

15:51

but for the fact that it's describing the

15:53

same circumstances. And it

15:55

heightened my... Hunch

16:01

that a lot of what we

16:03

are experiencing today and UAP phenomena

16:05

Especially like the best documented stuff

16:07

that really stands up to parsing

16:10

that really stands up to the check boxes That

16:13

you use when you look for mundane

16:15

explanations. Yeah, it could be it could

16:18

be What

16:20

might be called interdimensional phenomena or

16:22

different intersections of time into which

16:24

we gain peaks Every now

16:26

and then and maybe they gain peaks in us and maybe

16:28

they don't want to be here at all Maybe

16:31

there isn't disturbed running into us as we are

16:33

running into them everybody else What do

16:35

the aliens want and so forth they may want to get the

16:37

fuck out of here, right? I

16:39

would want to perhaps you mean like

16:41

shipwrecked wait You mean like one of

16:44

the theories out there is these things

16:46

are actually shipwrecked. I've never heard that

16:48

before that is so wild It's

16:51

possible, you know, we have these

16:53

encounters people describe a near-death experience

16:55

sometimes and again near-death experience Alien

16:59

abduction these may be the same conversation

17:01

a lot of experiences feel there's a

17:03

there's a vital in fact Inseparable innate

17:05

connection between the question of after death

17:07

survival and UFO experiences, right? You know

17:09

some people describe near-death experiences is very

17:12

positive. They're happy to be where they

17:14

are Other people describe it as nightmarish

17:16

as hell. Yeah, but they want to

17:18

get the hell out of there You

17:20

know, they're not happy and it may

17:23

be that if if we

17:25

have interdimensional counterparts, maybe they're not

17:27

happy either Maybe they wish we were

17:29

in our own fucking neighborhoods Wow Okay,

17:32

so let me stop you there. That is

17:35

something Terrence McKenna talked about He

17:38

is he had some wonderful

17:40

theory about this but the essence of

17:42

the thing is Interdimensionally

17:46

or whatever the

17:48

substrate of reality these these intelligences

17:51

are in They

17:53

really didn't give a shit about us like any

17:55

more than we cared about fleet What we care

17:57

about fleas less than we care about fleas But

18:00

we figured out how to split the atom. That

18:04

energy release was powerful enough

18:07

to cross over into their

18:09

dimension. It's like Joe

18:12

and I talk about this sometimes,

18:14

the horror that would sweep over

18:16

the planet if monkeys figured out

18:18

how to start fires. No.

18:23

What are we going to do? What

18:25

do you do if they just figured out

18:27

Flint, rocks, whatever it is. Their

18:31

fires would rage through

18:33

India. Fires would rage anywhere there's

18:35

monkeys. That was McKenna's

18:37

theory that maybe

18:40

once you approach some technological

18:43

peak where your technology begins

18:45

to disrupt alternate timelines or

18:47

realities or whatever, that

18:50

is where the Fermi paradox kicks

18:52

in. Because these things are just

18:54

like they send in the exterminator. What's

18:57

so interesting and I miss McKenna so

18:59

much on the contemporary scene, the three

19:01

voices I personally miss most on our

19:04

scene are McKenna, the

19:06

psychiatrist John Mack, and the philosopher Jacob

19:08

Needleman. To get those three together in

19:10

a room talking about the UAP question,

19:12

that's my dream team. I'm

19:14

living members of my dream team, but those are

19:17

the three that are important. I

19:32

want to thank

19:34

Squarespace for supporting

19:36

this episode of

19:38

the DTFH. Squarespace

19:40

has been one of my longest sponsors

19:42

and they never fail to amaze me.

19:44

It's this constantly evolving

19:46

toolbox that you can use

19:49

to build websites. It's always been

19:51

incredible or I wouldn't advertise for

19:53

them. But my God, they just

19:56

released the most insane thing that

19:58

you've got to try. It's

20:01

called blueprint AI and

20:03

SEO tools. I

20:05

just tried it and basically what

20:07

it does is you pick out a template

20:09

that you want for your website and

20:12

instead of having to type what

20:14

your website is all about, you

20:16

tell an AI what your website is

20:19

and then the AI populates

20:21

your website with all the

20:23

information that you gave it.

20:26

Oh my God, this is insane. Anytime

20:29

I've been wanting to create like a

20:31

prank website, for example, the one I

20:33

got the AI to help me create,

20:35

Visiting Devils, I'm sure you've seen the

20:37

Visiting Angels commercials, but Visiting

20:39

Devils actually sends

20:41

trained sex workers to

20:45

the homes of senior citizens to pleasure

20:47

them because they need that too. And

20:49

let's face it, if you ask me,

20:51

that's kind of what Visiting Angels is

20:54

sort of like going for. Visiting

20:56

Devils, it would be a huge

20:58

hit by the way. And hopefully

21:01

one day, especially before I become

21:03

a senior citizen, which I'm getting

21:05

really close to, this

21:07

service will actually become real. Maybe

21:09

I actually just help manifest it.

21:12

But if you've ever tried

21:14

to build a website and you've realized

21:17

that it takes a long time to

21:19

write out the about

21:21

section, to write what your

21:23

website is about and

21:26

now you could just do it

21:28

with AI and it looks good. I'm not

21:31

sure which large language

21:33

model they're using, but it is

21:35

incredible and even better,

21:37

it didn't reject my idea because

21:39

it's a little, how

21:41

shall we say, erotic. Some AIs,

21:44

they're kind of square.

21:46

This AI was totally cool

21:48

with Visiting Devils. You gotta

21:50

try this out. Squarespace, you're

21:53

constantly blowing my mind. Also,

21:55

if you're trying to create

21:57

a website for your podcast

21:59

or... or if you're an influencer or

22:01

somebody who creates content, they have members

22:04

only areas, which is really nice. And

22:06

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selling shirts or anything, then

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obviously they have the

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a website or a domain. Thank

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you, Squarespace. It

22:54

sounds so far out to people when

22:56

you say, hey, these flying saucers may

22:58

be interdimensional as if we're going even

23:00

further out to the fringe or to the

23:02

margins. But in fact, we as

23:04

a human community have

23:07

been able to do that. And

23:10

I think that's a really important thing to do in order to get a

23:12

better understanding of the future. And

23:15

I think that's a really important thing to do in

23:17

order to get a better understanding of the future. We

23:20

as a human community have

23:23

better developed models, just conceptions

23:25

of reality, not reality itself,

23:27

but better developed models for

23:29

interdimensionality than we do for

23:31

extraterrestriality. Big problem

23:33

with the ET thesis is how

23:36

to span galactic distances. It's so

23:38

mind-blowing we can barely conceive of

23:40

the vastness of these distances. And

23:43

there are theories. We hear about

23:45

cosmic wormholes. Maybe you introduce some

23:48

exotic piece of matter into the

23:50

locale, and you're able to create a black hole and travel

23:52

through it. But

23:54

models like string theory,

23:56

Hugh Everett's many worlds interpretation

23:58

of quantum physics. are

24:01

really more finely developed. And I would

24:03

say without getting into too much technical

24:05

data, ever since the 1950s, the

24:09

extrapolations that come out

24:12

of quantum mechanics from

24:15

people like Erwin Schrödinger and

24:17

Everett and other observers,

24:19

not quite immediate to that

24:21

era, demand as

24:23

a logical necessity, the

24:26

existence of a multidimensional, multitudinous

24:28

reality. It's almost a logical

24:31

necessity if we're going to

24:33

accept quantum data in which

24:35

basically on a particulate level,

24:39

observation localizes, what are our senses?

24:41

What are our five senses? Other

24:45

than means of measurement, we measure perspective,

24:48

smell, touch, taste, and so on. We

24:50

use it to get life. We have

24:52

a sense of linear time. Which

24:55

we know since Einstein, in fact, is

24:57

illusory and bendable. What

24:59

if in using these

25:02

imperfect sensory objects in

25:05

our atmosphere, in

25:07

our neighborhood of awareness, actually

25:10

localizes certain things, maybe temporarily,

25:13

maybe more than temporarily, and

25:16

we are experiencing as an

25:19

empirical constant the many world's

25:21

phenomena, of which we are only capable

25:23

of perceiving one, or

25:25

it would drive us mad. We just don't have the psychic power

25:27

to do it. And

25:30

I started to wonder about this over the past several

25:33

years as I was going deep down the rabbit hole

25:35

into parapsychology and ESP research. Everyone

25:38

who takes ESP research seriously and people ought

25:40

to complain that we need a theory. There's

25:43

not a theory. Maybe, maybe the many

25:45

world's theory is a theory of

25:49

ESP, is our theory of UAP phenomena, is

25:55

our theory of UFOs. Maybe

25:57

that's what's going on. We get these links.

26:00

The evidence just keeps getting better and it's

26:02

replicable and it's confirmed that it's parsed and

26:04

it won't go away. Maybe

26:06

that's our theory. It could be that is

26:08

more practical than the intergalactic thesis,

26:10

although it doesn't rule out the intergalactic

26:13

thesis. There may be a lot of

26:15

things happening in our neighborhoods, so to

26:17

speak. Well, I think it's important to

26:22

recognize that just because now suddenly

26:24

we're having this new

26:27

data set related to the tic-tacs, the UAPs,

26:30

that whether or

26:32

not that turns out to be real,

26:35

it does nothing to

26:37

discount all

26:39

of the stories and experiences that

26:41

have gone before. I think that's

26:43

really important because it feels

26:46

like the UFO

26:48

community has put a lot of their

26:51

chips on the table with this

26:54

UAP thing. In doing

26:56

so, it's not like they're refuting

26:59

previous encounters, alien abductions, all of the

27:01

things that have been studied. It

27:05

creates a sort of tentpole where if it

27:07

does turn out that what we're looking at

27:10

is Oppenheimer II, that they

27:12

figured out some new physics

27:14

or some new propulsion

27:16

mechanism, and that they've been

27:18

testing a new weapon of war, which

27:21

would really explain a lot. Why do

27:23

they show up around military bases? Why

27:25

do they turn off nuclear missiles? These

27:27

are all in the interest of the

27:29

military industrial complex. If I'm

27:32

testing some new technology, obviously

27:34

I'm not going to test it on enemies.

27:37

I'm going to test it on my own tech

27:40

to see, can they be

27:42

detected? Even culturally study

27:44

what is happening? And then

27:47

even signal jam the

27:49

entire conversation by seeding out there in

27:51

the world that it could be UFOs,

27:53

when in fact we're getting ready for

27:55

World War III and praying

27:58

that Putin does

28:00

something so that we can demonstrate to

28:02

the world, oh, we have

28:05

a new boot to put on your neck

28:08

in the form of these things. So

28:10

I think to me, it's important to

28:12

understand this thing your show is about.

28:16

And I started off talking about it because I

28:18

love that the conversation has entered

28:20

a gen pop.

28:22

I love that like Sean

28:25

Hannity is talking about

28:27

UFOs. Like this is an

28:29

acid heads paradise.

28:31

But also I think we've

28:34

got to like remember that these

28:36

encounters have been happening for

28:39

all of recorded history. And that whatever

28:42

these UIPs are, it isn't

28:44

necessarily, when we find out, oh, it

28:46

was nothing, it was whatever, doesn't mean

28:48

anything. There's so many

28:50

events and examples that have happened.

28:52

Now, tell me about

28:55

this piece of metal that

28:57

you're talking about. What metal, what is it?

29:00

Okay, dig this. This was brought

29:02

onto the show by one of

29:05

my very favorite guests, a man named Frank

29:07

Kimbler, who is a geologist and

29:09

a professor of earth science at

29:12

the New England, I'm

29:15

sorry, at the New Mexico Military

29:18

Institute, an army

29:20

college. And Frank

29:24

combed over the Roswell, the

29:26

alleged Roswell crash site, and

29:28

those positive events would have

29:30

taken place 75 years ago plus. Frank

29:35

maintained that there

29:37

are particular, particulate fragments

29:40

occupying a debris field at

29:43

the crash site. And he

29:45

painstakingly combed through the debris

29:47

field and found a

29:49

few fragments of aluminum

29:52

that demonstrate marks

29:56

of manufacturing, that

29:58

demonstrate marks of

30:00

having been blown apart in

30:03

an explosion, some kind of combustion

30:05

explosion, but subject

30:08

to chemical analysis, which we did

30:10

as part of the show, contracting

30:12

outside experts in labs. Cool. These

30:15

bits of aluminum are

30:18

pure aluminum. They're not compound

30:21

aluminum. Aluminum as a

30:23

metal is too

30:25

unstable to

30:28

be used in aeronautics or

30:30

manufacturing as we understand it.

30:32

We do not use

30:34

pure aluminum. We use compound aluminum

30:36

to add stability to it. Wow.

30:39

So Frank contends, look, if I

30:41

found this at an alleged

30:43

crash site, if it

30:46

shows signs of manufacturing and

30:48

a combustion explosion, and

30:51

if according to current chemical

30:53

analysis, it's not usable for

30:55

manufacturing, what the hell is

30:57

it? And I consider it

30:59

a legitimate piece of evidence

31:01

worth debating, considering, and arguing

31:03

over that was located

31:05

at the alleged Roswell crash site by

31:08

a trained geologist and earth scientist. I

31:11

am excited by it because people say,

31:13

where's the physical evidence? Where's the ray

31:15

gun? Where's the helmet? You know, Michael,

31:18

what's his name? The media

31:21

astronomer, DeGrav

31:23

Tyson. You know, he jokes, after a tea,

31:25

you should bring back an ashtray. Ha ha

31:27

ha. Gets him every time. We

31:30

do have physical evidence that can be debated.

31:33

And Frank brought forth a piece of

31:35

that physical evidence. There is other such

31:37

evidence, none of it conclusive, but worthy

31:39

stuff that's empirical that you can hold

31:41

in your hand, held it in my

31:43

hand. And let me tell you, when

31:45

I held it in my hand, I

31:47

felt chills. I felt excited as hell.

31:49

Yeah, man. What

31:51

about, did you test it for

31:53

any radiation? Did you test

31:55

it for any age testing or anything? It

31:59

doesn't matter. I guess, with pure aluminum. It

32:01

didn't show up. I don't believe

32:04

it showed up any radiation. And I don't

32:06

think there was any like real age

32:08

testing. I mean, it was manufactured stuff.

32:11

So it wouldn't be something that would

32:13

necessarily date back to antiquity. He was

32:16

dating a contemporaneous to the alleged

32:18

profession. Okay, well, let's just, this

32:20

is honestly what I'm about to

32:22

say. If I heard this on a

32:24

show, I would immediately turn it off. Let's talk about aluminum.

32:28

It's hard to see. It's exciting to everyone.

32:31

But it is, like people, I didn't

32:33

know this. But I wish I

32:36

could remember the book I was reading. But

32:38

it was using the example of

32:40

how once we figure

32:42

out to synthesize something, its

32:45

value quite often drops exponentially

32:47

because aluminum, Napoleon

32:50

used to serve as guests on

32:53

aluminum plates. His most revered guests.

32:55

It was more valuable than gold.

32:58

It was that hard to find

33:00

pure aluminum. Now we

33:02

wrap our hamburgers in it. No one

33:04

gives a shit about it. But so

33:06

to find in Roswell,

33:09

actual aluminum, non-manufactured

33:13

aluminum is fucking nuts.

33:15

I think, I don't know if aluminum naturally

33:17

occurs in Roswell, but I'm gonna, I doubt

33:20

it because there'd be aluminum mines out there.

33:23

So that is crazy. He

33:26

found that. And so just so everyone

33:28

out there knows, like the aluminum

33:30

that you have is not the aluminum they

33:33

found. I don't even know how,

33:35

were there aluminum mines back then? Where does it

33:38

even come from? Well, it can be mined from

33:40

the earth, but it has to be compounded with

33:42

other metals in order to be stable. Otherwise, even

33:44

your average aluminum foil, we

33:47

just don't use pure aluminum for

33:49

manufacturing, but this showed the marks

33:51

of manufacturing. Let me ask you this,

33:53

Mitch. You're not,

33:55

I mean, maybe you are allowed to say this,

33:59

but... Sometimes when I like, I

34:02

know that this sounds nuts. I'm allowed to be nuts.

34:05

Sometimes people will come to a

34:07

show and give me a gift and

34:09

I will not take it home because I get

34:11

a weird vibe off of it. I'm like, man,

34:13

I don't know what this is, but, and quite

34:15

often those gifts do have like sigils on them

34:17

and because of my sigil

34:20

illiteracy, I'm like, look, I don't have time to

34:22

pull out the lesser key of Solomon and find

34:24

out what the fuck this sigil represents, but even

34:26

if I did know, I don't think I want

34:29

to take it home. I got kids. Did

34:31

you get a vibe from

34:34

that piece of metal or any sense of

34:36

like something mystical

34:38

or, and even if it

34:40

was just your own subjective projection, did you get

34:43

any weird vibe? Well,

34:45

I wouldn't say that I got

34:47

a vibe. I don't know.

34:49

How do you separate emotional, mental,

34:51

physical? I guess it all

34:53

becomes one. I haven't

34:56

felt that excited and that

34:58

thrilled with touching a tactile

35:00

non-living object since I was

35:02

visiting ruins in ancient Egypt

35:07

while hitting the kabal yon. So cool,

35:09

man. I had a chance to lay

35:12

hands on a incredibly well-preserved bas-relief of

35:14

a bull in a

35:18

chamber deep below the Valley of

35:20

Kings. So it was deserved beautifully

35:23

in full color. As

35:25

I've written, I felt, I can only

35:27

call it the sensation of electricity going through me.

35:30

When I held this in my hand, I felt

35:32

that same momentous sense that

35:34

somebody might feel upon laying eyes on

35:36

the Statue of Liberty for the first

35:38

time, making it across the Atlantic. I

35:41

was thrilled. I was thrilled. And I

35:43

think Frank is a good guy. He's

35:47

an enthusiastic guy like me, but he's

35:49

an intellectually serious guy. He's trained, he's

35:51

careful. And I think

35:53

he has brought us a piece

35:55

of evidence that really warrants scrutiny.

35:58

There was another person who...

36:00

presented physical evidence on the show. And

36:02

I'm excited about this because the public

36:04

wants physical stuff. Yeah. A

36:07

mom, a math instructor, and an

36:09

athlete from Utah named Jessica Blunt.

36:11

And several years ago, Jessica had

36:13

the experience of UFO, what

36:16

she identifies as UFO flybys.

36:18

And she later experienced seizures,

36:21

bodily lacerations, and the appearance

36:23

of apparent radiation burns on

36:25

her body. She sent us

36:28

medical records that we verified.

36:30

Wow. I was

36:32

thrilled by this because shortly before meeting her,

36:36

I read a recently declassified

36:38

2010 report from

36:40

the Defense Intelligence Agency. And

36:43

I'm amazed this hasn't gotten

36:45

more mainstream media coverage because

36:47

it is a valid and

36:49

verifiable report that likewise reported

36:51

radiation burns appearing on

36:54

the bodies of Air Force

36:56

and Naval personnel who reported

36:58

flyovers by crafts of unknown

37:01

technology. I'm paraphrasing very

37:03

closely. That report has

37:05

been written about in USA Today here

37:08

in America and at the Daily Mail

37:10

in Britain. But nowhere else, at least

37:12

not much, in the mainstream media. And

37:15

that, to me, was as exciting as what

37:18

Leslie Kean, Ralph Blumenthal, and Helene Cooper did on the

37:20

cover of The New York Times in 2017. And

37:23

it was 10 years earlier, although it

37:25

wasn't declassified. So it's a different kind

37:28

of effort, a different kind of communication.

37:30

But there it is. And it's the

37:32

same thing that Jessica supplied. So when

37:34

Dyson says, ha ha, where's your

37:36

ashtray? Well, here's my fucking

37:38

ashtray. Tyson, Tyson, not Dyson.

37:45

I

37:58

want to thank Bluechoo. not just

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packages and most neighbors

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who do that sort of thing, they're

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looking for specific packages. It's like stuff

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me like, I'm not rubbing that on

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my body. I don't know what it

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is. So you must

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try this. You

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must try it. It just works, that's the

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41:24

When Dyson says, ha ha, where's

41:26

your ass straight? Well, there's my

41:28

fucking ass straight. Dyson, Dyson, not

41:30

Dyson. Let

41:33

me tell you okay. I've come around with

41:35

Neil deGrasse Dyson because I, like

41:38

all people like me, went

41:40

through the phase of really disliking

41:42

him and being annoyed by

41:44

him. And I realized,

41:46

I realized

41:49

what purpose he serves in

41:51

our culture. He serves the same

41:53

purpose my wife serves in my

41:55

marriage, which is I will

41:57

go off the fucking rails Mitch. I

42:00

will go down the wrong rabbit hole. And

42:03

during the pandemic, I seriously

42:05

thought we might, a

42:08

meteor might hit the earth. And it

42:11

was insane, like completely

42:13

illogical. And then my wife, in

42:16

the best way possible, she said, Duncan, a lot

42:19

of things might happen, but it's not

42:21

gonna be a meteor. Like you don't have

42:23

to worry, and it felt so good. Neil

42:27

deGrasse Tyson, what

42:29

I like about him is he's

42:31

sort of like, when

42:33

I get too far off the rails, I

42:36

just have to listen to his articulation

42:38

of something. And even though I still

42:41

view it, is some kind of

42:43

like elitist, fascist,

42:46

mind control that has the

42:49

potential of dissuading people from

42:51

exploring science. And I

42:53

don't think that's his intent, but

42:56

somewhere in there, something

42:58

trickles through that makes you feel like,

43:00

unless you've got funding to go to

43:02

school for decades, you

43:06

aren't going to even be in

43:09

the class of people who can tell

43:11

what is real from what is

43:14

false. I don't think that's his

43:16

intent. He feels benevolent, but definitely,

43:19

he has that old school scientific,

43:22

what's it, Kant? Is it

43:24

fucking Kant? Is that the

43:26

roots of this shit? Which is

43:28

like, we're going to

43:31

completely invalidate

43:34

anything that you're saying. And look,

43:37

it's like, he's a power lifter.

43:39

These four poor motherfuckers, they can't

43:42

do what we're doing. He

43:45

can't ask a friend, did the metal feel magical

43:47

to you? He'll

43:50

be fucking made fun of forever. Let

43:54

me ask you this. I want

43:56

to ask you a question apropos

43:58

of your media fears that you're

44:00

watching. wife dispelled, it seems to

44:02

me that when crazy shit goes

44:04

down, it's

44:06

always unexpected. The

44:08

Titanic, 9-11, the

44:13

events that triggered the latest

44:15

war in the Middle East, it's always like

44:17

unexpected, like, holy fuck, who the fuck saw

44:19

that coming? And part

44:23

of the argument that I have with

44:25

some of the conspiracy people, and I'm trying to

44:27

be more constructive towards

44:30

that because I think I've been belligerent in the

44:32

past. And I told my

44:34

long-term colleagues when I came, I

44:37

said, you know, listen, dude, I'm going to try

44:39

to be more constructive. I love

44:41

you, man. I said,

44:43

I've been too belligerent. He said, yeah, that's because

44:45

you're stupid. And I said, well, you know, when

44:47

a man tries to improve himself, I don't know

44:49

that calling him stupid is quite the most painful

44:53

encouragement that we're looking for. But right,

44:55

we're going to try. Yeah.

44:58

Here's the thing. You know, some

45:00

of the conspiracy folk point out to me like

45:02

9-11 couldn't have happened this way. The moon landing

45:04

couldn't have happened this way. And my counter to

45:06

them is I don't have the specialized knowledge to

45:09

argue with you. But I do know that when

45:11

unprecedented things happen, it's always incredible.

45:14

It's always unexpected. Yes. You

45:17

know what it's like when a big iron

45:19

ship hits an iceberg until a big iron

45:21

ship hits an iceberg. You don't know what

45:24

adjacent explosions might be like when airplanes

45:26

hit buildings because that doesn't happen. This

45:28

is the first fucking time it happened.

45:31

So the old rules,

45:33

the rules haven't been written. We're

45:36

learning the rules as we go

45:38

along because this shit is so

45:40

unexpected that the old rules don't

45:42

apply. So that's a generalist approach

45:45

that I sometimes like. I

45:48

was just thinking this. Like I

45:51

told you before we started recording, we're reading this great book

45:53

called Psychonauts. I'm going to have them on the show soon.

45:55

Great book out there guys. You should look it up. study

46:00

of sort of the history of drug

46:02

use in the

46:04

United States. We're all pretty

46:06

familiar with like post 60s drug

46:09

use, but my God, holy

46:12

shit. In the 1800s, people

46:15

were so high

46:18

Mitch. And they were scientists and

46:20

respected. Like these were people who

46:22

went on to like chair departments

46:25

at famous universities who are putting

46:27

themselves in boxes filled

46:29

with nitrous oxide for as long

46:31

as they could. Who?

46:35

William James. William James, yeah, absolutely. William

46:37

James was among them. I

46:40

think even though we all know Freud was in to

46:42

blow, like I

46:44

don't think anybody understood what that meant

46:46

because back then, because this

46:49

was all new, cocaine was being

46:51

heralded as this miracle drug to

46:53

fight against, they

46:56

have a great word for it, a

46:58

neurotheist now or something like too much.

47:00

Nurosthenia, yeah. Nurosthenia, depression. And they were

47:02

saying, Nurosthenia is because like things are

47:04

moving too fast. People are

47:06

getting depressed. So cocaine. Well water,

47:08

it's available everywhere now. We're soft.

47:11

Right, exactly. That's the funniest thing. They're

47:13

like, this shit is crazy. This

47:17

stuff is too intense, dude. Get some blow. That's

47:20

what they were doing. And

47:23

the thing where I really started

47:25

feeling butter as

47:28

someone who loves psychoactive substances

47:30

is that so many years of my life,

47:32

I had no idea that

47:35

respected scientists, intellectuals,

47:37

philosophers, poets were

47:40

just getting blasted

47:42

and saying, this

47:44

is helping me do what I do. A

47:50

famous surgeon was talking about how he didn't

47:52

think he could have innovated some of the

47:54

rules we still have today for surgery, if

47:57

not for cocaine. So I'm

47:59

not a fan of cocaine. I get depressed on it,

48:01

but still my point is to get to what you

48:03

just said. The

48:07

scientific mind in those days

48:10

was incredibly

48:13

open to all

48:15

kinds of weird shit. The

48:17

subjective experience was not

48:20

discounted as much as it is

48:22

today, it seems like. And the

48:26

experiences that people are having

48:29

on these substances, nitrous, whatever,

48:31

are so interwoven

48:34

with the zeitgeist that they were living

48:37

in. The visions they were having were

48:39

interwoven with the zeitgeist. And

48:42

so it makes

48:44

me think of time as this kind of river.

48:46

And like

48:49

you said earlier, Einstein proved

48:51

that space bends. People doubted him

48:53

about that. They had to wait

48:55

for an eclipse to prove that

48:57

light was... So space

49:01

is bending, warping, weaving, changing all

49:03

the time. This is where quantum

49:05

physics pops in and upsets Newtonian

49:08

physics. So now you have what

49:10

you're saying, not just the possibility

49:13

for a Titanic to slam into iceberg, plain

49:15

to slam into building, but the

49:18

possibility of this stuff that we're

49:20

all part of getting so warped,

49:23

that physics itself, everything

49:26

that we understood prior

49:28

to now completely changes.

49:33

The low level way people talk about it is the mandala

49:36

effect. That

49:40

history is actually changing, that

49:43

we're in a warping, flowing,

49:47

continuous river of creation

49:49

that won't

49:51

be domesticated. And even if you've made

49:53

predictions and even if you have...

49:57

What do they call it? If you could reproduce your

49:59

experience. at some point you

50:02

might not be able to anymore. And

50:04

that's the reality. That's true. I

50:06

mean, is it likely? No. But

50:09

just the fact that that

50:11

possibility exists, that everything

50:14

could change immediately in a second, like

50:16

in a way that we have never

50:19

ever predicted or have

50:22

any precedent for in history. That's

50:24

thrilling. This

50:44

episode of the DTFH is supported

50:47

by Better Help. Friends,

50:50

therapy. Try it. You'll

50:52

be so glad that you did. I

50:54

know. I know what you're thinking.

50:57

I'm a perfectly sane, rational person who sometimes

50:59

wakes up screaming in the middle of the

51:01

night and secretly hates myself. Why do I

51:03

need therapy? You

51:06

will be so glad you did it. It's like

51:08

any other really healthy thing

51:11

like the gym. You know, I've

51:14

been going to the gym regularly now for

51:17

almost a year, but that

51:19

didn't happen because I wanted

51:21

to do it. I actually would drive to

51:23

the gym, sit in the

51:25

parking lot and leave, but

51:28

I figured it's still better just to like try

51:30

to get there than to do nothing at all.

51:32

And then gradually my body got addicted to it.

51:35

And now I have to go. Therapy

51:37

is similar, except unlike

51:39

the gym, if you

51:42

find a good therapist, you don't have to

51:44

go for your whole life. They will help

51:46

you with specific issues. And you

51:48

know, a lot of us have just

51:51

a basic habitual problem.

51:53

Sharon Salzberg puts it best. At the

51:55

end of the day, why is

51:58

it that many of us only think

52:00

about it? about the rotten things we

52:02

did during the day. We think about

52:04

the one bad thing we wished we

52:07

hadn't done and forget all the good

52:09

things, opening the door

52:11

for someone, letting someone out

52:14

into traffic, taking care of

52:16

our animals, taking care of

52:18

ourselves. These things forget it, uninteresting,

52:20

but in the way we hyperfixate

52:22

on the one cruel

52:25

comment in the comment section of something

52:27

we put up, we hyperfixate

52:30

on the one moment of

52:33

mild gracelessness each day. Therapy

52:35

can help you correct that

52:38

habit, among other things. Bottom

52:40

line, I have personally

52:43

benefited from therapy and my

52:45

only regret in that regard is that

52:47

I didn't start going sooner. And I

52:50

think if you're feeling

52:52

like maybe that's the right thing to do, you

52:55

should give better help a try.

52:58

It's entirely online, designed to be

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convenient, flexible and suited to your

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53:10

it comes to therapy. Sometimes you

53:13

gotta find the right therapist for

53:15

you. And that's it.

53:18

Try it. Visit betterhelp.com/Duncan

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53:25

That's betterhelp, h-e-l-p.com/Duncan.

53:31

Thank you, better help. ["The

53:35

Best in the World"] Everything

53:50

could change immediately in a second, like

53:52

in a way that we have never,

53:55

ever predicted or have

53:57

any precedent for in history. That's three.

54:00

It is absolutely

54:02

thrilling. And where

54:05

to begin? One of

54:07

my intellectual heroes, as you know,

54:09

is the ESP researcher J.B.

54:11

Rine. He started the psychology lab at

54:13

Duke in the 1930s. And

54:16

J.B. was asked by an interviewer, is ESP

54:19

real? And he said, I would

54:22

put it this way, ESP occurs.

54:25

It occurs. And he

54:27

was very interested in replication because he

54:29

was a mainstream scientist, statistician. That was

54:31

his job. But it's

54:34

no less real for not

54:36

being replicable. As

54:39

Hegel famously wrote, if

54:41

it's real, it's rational. If it's real, it's rational. Where's

54:44

the empiricism? And we have

54:46

so much empiricism that we almost don't know

54:48

what to do with it. So we deny

54:51

it. Like you were talking about Einstein and

54:53

the proving of Einstein's theories. In

54:55

our very own era, astronauts, although

54:57

they're moving nowhere near the velocity

55:00

of light speed, actually demonstrate minute

55:04

but measurable reductions in the

55:06

aging process. It's as real

55:08

as it gets. It's classical

55:11

Einstein. And he wasn't

55:13

kidding. He wasn't kidding.

55:16

And apropos of what you were saying about

55:18

the Mandela effect, it's really not much different

55:20

from the many-worlds theory that

55:22

was pioneered in the 1950s to

55:24

understand quantum physics. It

55:27

could be, it could be that

55:30

at every instant, including this one

55:32

right now, we are completely reimagining

55:35

who we are, what we are, past, present, so-called future.

55:37

If you ask me, Mitch, where are you from? I'd

55:39

say, well, I'm from Queens, and my father did this,

55:41

and my mother did this, and then we moved, and

55:43

we had a dog. It's all true. But

55:46

it may be something that's true instant, at

55:49

this particular instant. And it's no less real

55:51

for not being so in the next instant.

55:54

We're reimagining things constantly,

55:56

but we perceive in

55:59

singularity. because we can't deal with

56:01

life otherwise. We five sensory beings

56:03

are built to think in

56:06

a linear, orderly way. Death

56:08

is real. I'm only gonna say these

56:11

words once. I know

56:13

exactly what my past was. And

56:16

it seems as real to us as in fact

56:18

time does. But for the

56:20

fact that we know, time bends. Time

56:22

is, the arity is not absolute. This, so

56:25

this, this is, I love

56:27

this topic so much. And

56:30

to me, though

56:33

I don't really care for the book, I

56:35

respect the book, The Denial of Death. It

56:37

seems to me like a quick fix. It's sort of simplifying

56:39

humanity in a way. You

56:45

can't just pin everything on people being afraid

56:47

of death. But the premise being like a

56:50

lot of neurosis, a lot of people freaking

56:52

out. It's just all because we are just

56:54

at the precipice of an unknown that is

56:57

death. And so people

56:59

are freaking out. Well, I think it's

57:01

more to the point, it's the denial

57:04

of impermanence. This is what you're

57:06

talking about. It's the denial of

57:09

the fact that no matter

57:11

what, the

57:13

sum total of all

57:16

human wisdom, intelligence, discovery

57:18

exists in a bio

57:20

computer that is incredibly

57:23

fallible. And that because

57:26

of this, we all

57:28

are agreeing on some

57:30

reality. And that's the game that we all

57:32

play. This is the year, this

57:34

is our history, this

57:37

is good, this is bad. And we all

57:39

kind of agree on that. That's default reality.

57:41

But this is all a shared

57:44

agreement that is being stored

57:47

on hard drives that are

57:49

not just fallible, but susceptible

57:52

to infiltration. And that

57:55

is something that's really scary when

57:57

you consider the possibility that it...

57:59

This is a bio computer, very

58:01

complex, beautiful, incredible thing, nothing quite

58:03

like it. But it can,

58:06

we already know it can be hacked. Watch

58:09

late night TV, watch any commercial.

58:11

You're getting hacked by makeup companies,

58:13

fast food companies, all of them

58:16

have psychologists that know

58:18

exactly how to like plant shit into your mind

58:20

that's gonna make you want an Oreo in a

58:22

couple of weeks. That's,

58:25

and that form

58:28

of manipulation is relatively brand new. But

58:31

whoa, man, with neural lace,

58:34

with the real reality

58:36

that we're all going to be connected

58:38

to machines, suddenly a whole

58:40

new potential emerges, which

58:42

is to your point, which is that theoretically,

58:46

human memory itself could

58:48

just be transferred, whole

58:51

new life, whole new idea of history.

58:54

We know China is working on these

58:57

weapons, man. Hardcore mind

58:59

control weapons, just imagine

59:01

that. The X, fill

59:03

it in with however this would happen. You're

59:06

a soldier, you're fighting, and

59:09

suddenly you realize,

59:11

wait, why am I fighting my

59:14

comrades? I'm part of the CCP.

59:17

You know what I mean? Because they've just replaced your

59:20

entire memory banks with like, you've lived

59:22

in China your whole life. I mean,

59:24

whoa, what a powerful weapon. So I'm sorry, I'm

59:27

rambling a little too much for it. No, not

59:29

at all. The

59:31

point is that reality

59:34

is not as stable as

59:37

most people seem to want it to be.

59:39

I mean, as McKenna said, every

59:42

half the planet at

59:46

any given moment is in like

59:49

a deep hallucinatory episode called

59:51

sleep. I mean,

59:53

that is so trippy. Whenever the

59:56

fucking planet turns away from the

59:58

sun, we fucking. start

1:00:01

yawning and collapse and have

1:00:04

insane hallucinations

1:00:06

that feel real. And

1:00:09

so just that alone

1:00:11

should, I think, make

1:00:14

you feel a little

1:00:16

suspicious of whatever

1:00:19

you're experiencing is waking life. Maybe

1:00:21

that isn't quite as real as

1:00:23

we think either. Absolutely.

1:00:26

And I mentioned Gurjeep earlier. Gurjeep's

1:00:29

main contention is that humanity

1:00:31

is asleep. And he meant

1:00:33

it in the most literal sense, not

1:00:35

as a metaphor, not as

1:00:38

some sort of a pretty

1:00:40

way of describing our unawareness. But he

1:00:42

said, well, sure, you're doing stuff when

1:00:44

you sleep. You know, you

1:00:46

eat, you might even get up and

1:00:48

go to the bathroom and still be

1:00:51

in a sleepwalking state. But we are

1:00:53

so hypnotized and so without understanding

1:00:56

of our own nature that

1:00:58

we are, in fact, asleep.

1:01:01

Jacob Needleman told me

1:01:03

this story. He wrote about it

1:01:05

in one of his books, a book called The

1:01:07

Indestructible Question. During

1:01:09

the Second World War, there

1:01:12

was an Austrian military doctor

1:01:14

who was experimenting on

1:01:18

foot soldiers with hypnosis. And

1:01:20

one foot soldier, young man,

1:01:22

early 20s, probably like a corporal or something,

1:01:26

was subject to hypnosis. And the

1:01:28

hypnotist said to him, I'm

1:01:30

going to bring you out of hypnosis, and in

1:01:32

about 15 minutes I'm going to clap

1:01:34

my hands. And when I clap my hands, after you've

1:01:36

come to your normal state, you're

1:01:39

going to raise your left leg. So

1:01:41

he did it, brought the guy to his normal

1:01:43

state, clapped his hands, and the guy raised his

1:01:45

left leg. And the hypnotist said

1:01:47

to him, why did you just now

1:01:49

raise your left leg? And the guy said, well,

1:01:53

I had an itch, or I thought there was something under my foot.

1:01:56

He rationalized his

1:01:58

automatized behavior. behavior and

1:02:00

that's us. That's it. We

1:02:03

feel anxiety and we project backwards. Why do

1:02:05

I feel anxiety? Well, it's because my mother

1:02:07

didn't, you know, buy me that, you know,

1:02:09

Gumby, you know, doll I

1:02:11

wanted. Why did I just, you know,

1:02:13

exploded somebody? Why am I eating when

1:02:16

I'm not hungry? Well, it's because, blah,

1:02:18

blah, blah, blah, blah, because, because, because

1:02:20

we are automatized beings with no more

1:02:24

selectivity in our lives than upholstering

1:02:26

doll who repeat, say 20 different

1:02:28

phrases. That's the horror of our

1:02:30

lives, but it's not without possibility.

1:02:33

It's not without possibility. That's why

1:02:35

I crack up whenever the latest

1:02:37

Ted talk neurologist is explaining you

1:02:39

have no free will free will

1:02:41

is an illusion, right? Because you're

1:02:44

studying the box, but there are

1:02:46

beings and sometimes we're among them

1:02:48

who exit from the box, even

1:02:50

if only temporarily. And that exiting,

1:02:53

as you were saying earlier, is

1:02:55

no less real, even if

1:02:57

it can't be repeated. That's right. And,

1:02:59

and, and, and, and, and, how

1:03:02

do you even quantify that? That's

1:03:04

the problem is like, you know,

1:03:06

the quantification, the entire methodology that

1:03:09

has given us all of the incredible

1:03:11

advancements that we have is

1:03:14

built on the backs of people who

1:03:16

had visions built on the backs of

1:03:18

people had inspirations while they dreamed build

1:03:20

on the backs of people who are

1:03:22

on so much pharmaceutical

1:03:25

cocaine. You

1:03:28

know, like this coming. So it's

1:03:30

like these technological icebergs, I guess

1:03:33

you could say, are poking up

1:03:35

into default reality underneath.

1:03:38

They're just floating in

1:03:42

drugs, delirium,

1:03:44

mania, sleeplessness,

1:03:48

religious fundamentalism, visions from God.

1:03:50

But we can't talk about

1:03:52

that. We talk about the

1:03:54

quantifiable thing. We can't talk about the

1:03:56

fact that these things are emerging from

1:03:58

human consciousness that has quite often been,

1:04:01

look at Newton. He

1:04:03

had Mercury in his hair.

1:04:05

He was so out of

1:04:07

it. He's playing with Mercury,

1:04:09

studying the temple of Solomon.

1:04:11

It's like- That's right. Translating

1:04:13

the Emerald Tablet. First English

1:04:15

translation came from Newton, actually.

1:04:17

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And

1:04:20

so I think that's why people like us

1:04:22

do get a little like

1:04:24

sand in our diaper about Neil

1:04:27

deGrasse Tyson. Because he's like giving

1:04:30

this impression that scientists are these

1:04:33

sort of rational gentlemen who

1:04:36

like stand up for the truth

1:04:38

when their entire lineage is maniacs

1:04:40

who are testing on themselves.

1:04:44

That's the other thing like that. They would quite

1:04:46

often just be like, let's see what happens if

1:04:49

I inject dog come into my body. Hold on

1:04:51

one second, Mitch. I gotta switch cameras.

1:04:54

So, you know, I

1:04:57

want to comment on like two different

1:04:59

things. You had mentioned Emil Durkheim's denial

1:05:01

of death. And we look

1:05:03

at figures like Durkheim and maybe Eric

1:05:05

Fromm, who

1:05:08

wrote the famous book, Escape from Freedom,

1:05:10

about the psychological triggers of fascism. Other

1:05:13

people at that time, they were people

1:05:16

of great humanity. And

1:05:19

they believed in and they wanted a better,

1:05:22

more rationally just organized

1:05:24

human polity. They

1:05:27

were democratic socialists. They were Freudians.

1:05:29

They were humanists. They were men

1:05:31

of science. They gave a shit

1:05:33

about humanity. But reading them today

1:05:35

feels to us almost

1:05:38

too elementary, like, oh my God, you know,

1:05:40

you're going to tell me that fascism is

1:05:42

because I want a big daddy. Well, yeah,

1:05:45

I believe that. I understand that. Right. But,

1:05:47

you know, authoritarian and fascist politics occur in

1:05:49

so many different settings at so many different

1:05:52

times. Yeah. Including in societies and

1:05:54

households where people already have a big daddy, you

1:05:56

know, and I don't know

1:05:58

that it holds up and our fear of

1:06:00

death. Well, of course, no argument there, but

1:06:02

we read these guys today, and it sounds

1:06:04

elementary to us. And

1:06:06

they needed to take greater

1:06:09

account of the ineffable. And

1:06:11

that's the flaw of

1:06:13

modernist letters. Modernist letters, for

1:06:16

whatever reason, decided that all

1:06:19

the antecedents to life need to

1:06:21

be studied, parsed, considered, but

1:06:24

none of them are going to be

1:06:26

extra-physical. None of them are going

1:06:28

to be metaphysical. If you're a Freudian,

1:06:30

you got trauma. If you're a

1:06:32

Marxist, you got economics. If you're

1:06:34

into Einstein and the new metaphysics, you got

1:06:36

time space. You got store germ

1:06:38

theory. William James, self-image. All

1:06:41

these rational antecedents, and they're all good

1:06:43

and worthwhile in terms of understanding our world. But

1:06:46

these guys, almost by cultural dint,

1:06:49

excluded the metaphysical, which is why their books

1:06:51

today, some of them at least,

1:06:53

I'll exclude Wilhelm Reich, why

1:06:55

those books today that came out very

1:06:57

loosely out of the Frankfurt School

1:07:00

seem to us like tepid old tea

1:07:02

that we don't want to drink anymore, because

1:07:04

they don't take enough into account. And

1:07:07

I think my issue with Neil

1:07:09

deGrasse Tyson is

1:07:12

that it may

1:07:14

be just personality. I don't like his smirk.

1:07:16

You know, we have different styles. But

1:07:19

remember, when Jacob Needleman was alive, and

1:07:21

I guess I'm just thinking about him

1:07:23

a lot today, this is a guy

1:07:25

who dedicated his life to studying esoteric

1:07:27

symbolism, the inner meaning of religions. And

1:07:29

I said to Jerry one day, what is

1:07:32

the meaning of the numbers of

1:07:34

loaves and fishes in the

1:07:36

Gospels? And he said, I don't know. And

1:07:39

I'd like to hear Neil deGrasse Tyson

1:07:41

say that one day, publicly, I don't

1:07:43

know. They're

1:07:46

not allowed! Well,

1:07:48

I mean, also, he's an entertainer. That's

1:07:51

the other thing. There's so

1:07:53

many scientists no one will ever know

1:07:56

who don't watch, who knows what the

1:07:58

fuck they do. They're

1:08:00

hyper-specialists studying the probiscus

1:08:02

of some swamp thing

1:08:04

that no one will

1:08:06

give a fuck about,

1:08:08

but that's their whole

1:08:10

life's work. There's

1:08:13

something in it that's cool, but I agree with you, man.

1:08:15

I think that to me, where the

1:08:17

danger in sanitizing science is that it produces

1:08:29

a version of scientists that

1:08:32

doesn't seem to match the

1:08:34

greatest scientists. And that's the

1:08:36

problem. And so people begin

1:08:38

to doubt themselves when they're

1:08:41

having these intuitions to do bizarre

1:08:43

studies or try weird things or

1:08:45

think about things in an insane

1:08:47

way because of that smirk. It's

1:08:49

not Neil deGrasse Tyson's fault. He's

1:08:52

trying to get everyone to calm down. He's

1:08:54

the dude in the car trying to get

1:08:57

us to the concert and we got too

1:08:59

high. And he's like, guys, I know

1:09:02

how to get there. And I think he's benevolent. But

1:09:06

if you're watching that and

1:09:10

you are some promising

1:09:12

young philosopher scientist and you think because

1:09:15

you've eaten hash and

1:09:17

saw some vision of a new

1:09:20

way of doing something that almost

1:09:22

invalidates it. You're not going to

1:09:24

even try because you are a

1:09:27

blasphemer. You're this isn't how science

1:09:29

is done. Science is done in

1:09:32

this clean, beautiful way. But they

1:09:34

were all maniacs crazier than maybe

1:09:36

even comedians. Like, do

1:09:38

you know how insane you have to be to inject

1:09:40

yourself with animal jizz? Like,

1:09:43

you know, that's a crazy,

1:09:45

crazy thing. And did it work? No,

1:09:47

it didn't. And now we know.

1:09:49

Don't enjoy. Now we know. But

1:09:53

you have to be crazy enough to be

1:09:55

like, you know what? It's worth a shot.

1:09:57

Honey, get the dog. I want to

1:09:59

see if this is getting. Give me more energy. But

1:10:01

yes, I agree with you, man, and I

1:10:04

love your work because the

1:10:06

challenging aspect of this

1:10:08

conversation is if

1:10:11

you veer too much into the

1:10:13

ineffable, if you veer too much

1:10:15

into the metaphysical

1:10:18

minus the reproducibility, the

1:10:20

quantification, then no one wants to

1:10:22

hear it. It's the translators like

1:10:25

you, I think, that do the world

1:10:28

a really great service because we all

1:10:30

need the reminder that, hey, just because

1:10:33

this scientist or that scientist

1:10:35

raises his eyebrow at ESP

1:10:37

UFOs, whatever it may be,

1:10:42

it's not a very scientific thing to

1:10:44

just believe it's not true. You

1:10:47

need to do your, you need to dive in,

1:10:50

you need to trust your instincts, right?

1:10:53

And so to convey that to people in the way that

1:10:55

you do in a very astute way

1:10:57

that is really rooted in, I

1:11:01

can't even imagine how many books you've read, my friend,

1:11:03

but it's really rooted in

1:11:05

logic. I love it,

1:11:07

man. And I must

1:11:10

ask, do you have a little bit more time? I do.

1:11:12

Okay. Did

1:11:18

you have any moments in the course of

1:11:20

this show where

1:11:22

you began to do

1:11:25

a Neil deGrasse Tyson smirk? Did

1:11:27

you have any cynical moments? Like when I

1:11:30

did a show with Rogan where we, it

1:11:32

wasn't aliens, it was everything weird. And

1:11:35

somewhere along the way, I

1:11:38

think we both started feeling like

1:11:40

a little deflated. You know

1:11:42

what I mean? Because of our optimism, we

1:11:45

wanted proof.

1:11:47

We wanted the thing. And

1:11:51

something about being so naive maybe that we thought

1:11:53

that we would find it. And

1:11:56

then realizing that some of the people we

1:11:58

were talking to, Definitely whatever they

1:12:01

they experienced something but a lot of

1:12:03

the times it felt completely Just

1:12:07

not real. Did you

1:12:09

have any moments like that? We're like, ah

1:12:11

fuck man. This is a waste of time

1:12:13

I this is we're barking up the wrong

1:12:15

tree here. Yeah, absolutely. There were two Two

1:12:20

encounters in particular where I felt like

1:12:23

the experiences were bringing to the table

1:12:25

such ready-made language so

1:12:29

Common language that

1:12:31

you could just pull off the shelf Well,

1:12:33

this was a lizard man and this was

1:12:35

a toy and this was a gray and

1:12:37

it was this kind of a craft and

1:12:39

they Were from this galaxy and and

1:12:42

this stuff is all mixed up

1:12:44

in the subculture UFOs,

1:12:47

you know Whitley Strebber to a very

1:12:49

significant extent laid down the template So

1:12:51

this is the kind that everybody sees and

1:12:53

it's interesting as hell that it looks a

1:12:55

lot like the guy that I was Croley

1:12:57

saw yeah Lem and and that's

1:13:00

intriguing as hell. But when it starts to

1:13:02

become a cookie cutter You

1:13:05

know all but literally and sometimes

1:13:07

literally it's boring because the

1:13:09

this is just deferring to cultural

1:13:11

custom You know, I was telling

1:13:13

somebody during the show that

1:13:16

in 1893 president Teddy Roosevelt

1:13:18

published a memoir called the

1:13:20

wilderness hunter about his experiences

1:13:22

Hunting across different continents and

1:13:24

he was hunting in the

1:13:26

early 1890s on

1:13:29

the borderlands of Idaho and Montana

1:13:31

Which was real wilderness at that

1:13:33

time and he encountered a trapper

1:13:36

who told him a blood-curdling fucking

1:13:38

story That we would recognize

1:13:40

as a Bigfoot story, right? Roosevelt called

1:13:42

it a goblin story and it was

1:13:44

funny to see the use of that

1:13:46

word because it seems so antiquated to

1:13:48

us today But he didn't have words

1:13:50

like Yeti or Sasquatch what he reached

1:13:52

for and I respect that because that's

1:13:54

what was available But he didn't rely

1:13:57

on it. He used the word once

1:13:59

and then And he tells the story

1:14:01

as it was repeated to him, and

1:14:03

it's blood curdling because of its specificity.

1:14:06

When people step up, and

1:14:08

instead of specificity, they're just using wordy words,

1:14:10

you know, like, oh, he was a tall

1:14:13

gray, and then there was this happening, and

1:14:15

that happened, and I'm like, I just saw

1:14:17

this the other night on the fucking X-Files

1:14:19

repeat. It's boring.

1:14:21

It's boring, and it's deflating because that

1:14:23

to me is just ladling the cultural

1:14:25

soup. And you're not learning.

1:14:28

You're not discovering anything. When you read

1:14:30

Whitley's Trebor, for example, I often tell

1:14:32

people, if you haven't read Kimmy and

1:14:34

you read the thing, there's an originality

1:14:36

to the voice. And by the way,

1:14:39

I'm not making a comparison. This was

1:14:41

true of Joseph Smith, too, when Joseph

1:14:43

Smith received or wrote or whatever he

1:14:45

did, the Book of Mormon. Yes, it

1:14:47

draws on scripture. Yes, it draws on

1:14:49

folklore from central New York state. But

1:14:52

there was this originality to it that

1:14:54

made people say, holy shit. Yeah. More

1:14:56

of that. When it's deflated, when

1:14:59

there's too much absence from that, then

1:15:01

any low water gets brackish and dirty,

1:15:03

and it doesn't taste right when it's

1:15:05

just cultural forms. Yeah. Yeah. And

1:15:08

that is a strange position to find yourself in if

1:15:10

you're talking to people like that because you don't want

1:15:12

to humiliate them, and you don't. No, I'm kidding. You're

1:15:15

coming on the show. You don't want to attack them.

1:15:17

And so some part of you is just thinking, shit.

1:15:23

This is like you

1:15:25

just wanted to get on a cool show.

1:15:27

You wanted to talk about aliens, and you

1:15:30

got in somehow, and you've been doing that

1:15:32

as a practice.

1:15:34

They worm their way in, and

1:15:36

they completely, like you say, they

1:15:38

make the water brackish. And

1:15:41

they're worse than, I

1:15:44

don't know, what's the word? The conspiracy

1:15:46

people. They're worse

1:15:48

than people who are

1:15:50

intentionally trying to warp the truth to divert.

1:15:54

They're just warping the truth.

1:15:57

It's cynicism. They want to be an influencer. You

1:16:00

know, it's very hard for me to tell whether

1:16:02

they believe what they're saying or not, but they

1:16:04

give me the feeling of being lied to. And

1:16:07

I just go to sleep. It's like, this is

1:16:09

so uninteresting when there's so much interesting shit going

1:16:11

on out in our world. You

1:16:14

got to tell me about like a little green man

1:16:16

with a laser gun. You know, it's like, we've

1:16:19

been there, you know? I cannot wait

1:16:21

to watch Alien Encounters,

1:16:23

Mitch. This is so exciting.

1:16:27

So it comes out tonight, you say?

1:16:30

It comes out tomorrow night. Wednesday,

1:16:32

June 19th on Discovery,

1:16:34

called 10 p.m. Eastern, 10

1:16:37

p.m. Pacific. And then later

1:16:39

this summer, it's going to

1:16:41

come to Max and

1:16:43

Discovery Plus. Hell yes. Congratulations,

1:16:46

my friend. I will be watching tomorrow night. Thank

1:16:49

you so much for coming on the show. All

1:16:51

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