0:01

Hello, Ear Hustlers. Hey, Nach. Hello

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there. They done brought us out, the big

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guns. So that means that time is running

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0:59

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1:02

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1:05

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1:07

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1:09

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1:11

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1:13

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1:17

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That's odoo.com/Ear Hustle.

3:18

Odoo, saving the world one

3:20

business at a time. Hey,

3:24

I'm Janetta Stringfellow, the Chief Development

3:26

Officer at PRX. And

3:29

this episode of Ear Hustle contains language that

3:31

may not be appropriate for all listeners. Discretion

3:33

is advised. It'll

3:49

be the second golf cart, the Sixeater. Orlon,

3:56

this golf cart routine is getting kind of

3:58

familiar. of course

4:00

you'll be able to walk to where we're going? No, because

4:02

this prison is so

4:04

spread out, Erlon. What would you call, I

4:06

wouldn't call it a campus. It's like a-

4:08

It's like a whole industrial

4:10

complex. With a bunch

4:13

of what feels like warehouses. This

4:16

is our third trip to CCWF,

4:18

which stands for the Central California

4:20

Women's Facility. And once we

4:22

go through all those gates, bend those conas,

4:25

we end up at the Media Center. Yes,

4:27

our place. I

4:29

hope they're not all there waiting for us. I hate that

4:31

feeling. The

4:34

purpose of this particular trip was

4:36

to meet moms and daughters

4:38

who are incarcerated together. And

4:41

originally, we thought this was gonna be part

4:43

of our Mother's Day episode, which came out

4:45

earlier in the season. But

4:47

this trip to CCWF ended up

4:49

being not quite what we expected.

4:52

Yeah, I think this episode

4:54

really ended up being about

4:57

the daughters. And Erlon,

4:59

it's also our final episode of

5:01

season 13. Yes,

5:04

I'm Erlon Woods. I'm Nigel

5:06

Poor, and this is Ear Hustle

5:09

from PRX's Radiotopia. So

5:21

before you sign this up, I'll explain the

5:23

process to you. We're working on a story

5:25

about relationships between mothers and daughters. We

5:28

sat down and two women came and joined us.

5:31

It was a lady in her 60s. And

5:33

her daughter, a woman probably in her 40s.

5:38

My name is Rosa, and I've

5:40

been in CCWF since 2012. My

5:46

name is Ms. Li, and I've

5:48

been in CCWF December 12. Did

5:52

you come at the same time we came

5:54

together? The alcohol defendants. Okay. Rosa?

6:00

What would you say? I mean, she seemed very

6:02

quiet and reserved. She

6:05

had on these sensible wire rim glasses. Her hair was

6:08

pulled back in a ponytail. She

6:11

just kind of struck me as no-nonsense. Maybe? But

6:13

Miss Lee? Well,

6:15

Miss Lee, she was kind of bubbly, always

6:17

smiling. And it just seemed like she had

6:19

a way of doing things. Yeah,

6:21

I mean, like in command of room in a

6:23

way. Like, you want to pay attention to her?

6:25

But I definitely, there was a little underlying bossy

6:27

boots there. Okay. Yeah,

6:30

but charming. So you're saying she was

6:32

a boss? She was charming, charming. I

6:34

wouldn't want to cross her. So you

6:36

go by Miss Lee? And do

6:39

people respect that and call

6:41

you Miss Lee? Yes, and then when people ask

6:43

me, what's your name? I say,

6:45

call me Miss Lee, and then they do it.

6:47

Yeah, it's very proper. Were you a teacher? I

6:50

was kind of like a tutoring

6:53

back in Hong Kong. Yeah, okay. Yeah,

6:55

it gives, I imagine it gives people

6:58

a feeling of, I don't

7:00

know, respect? Yes. Yeah, yeah.

7:02

Is respect important to you? Yes, it

7:04

is. My

7:08

name is Rosa, and actually,

7:11

I'm a daughter to my mom, and

7:14

I'm also a mom to my daughters.

7:16

So I fit both

7:18

roles. Rosa

7:20

and her mom spoke to us on the

7:23

condition that they not discuss the details of

7:25

their crime. But we can say

7:27

that before they committed their crime, Rosa

7:30

had a busy, full life, a

7:32

husband, a job, a young daughter, and

7:34

as a result of the crime, she

7:36

lost all of that. Now,

7:39

it's just the two of them in prison. I'm

7:44

curious, how does the relationship change

7:47

from being outside to inside? Um,

7:52

actually, I spend a lot more time living

7:55

in the same room. It's

7:59

like a tiny room. space with her in

8:01

here than I did out there because out there we

8:03

lived in different parts of the Bay

8:05

Area. We have different homes so

8:08

I normally don't even see her outside

8:11

except maybe once or twice a month and

8:14

in here I see her I

8:16

guess every day. And

8:19

have you been in prison before or is this your first

8:21

time? This is the real first time. And may

8:23

I ask how old you were when you came

8:25

to prison? So

8:28

you had an established life before you came to prison?

8:30

Yes. What were some of

8:32

the biggest adjustments for you coming

8:35

here? I live in

8:37

a crowded environment I

8:39

really don't like because all the reasons

8:41

that I migrate from Hong Kong to

8:43

here is to avoid

8:46

crowding. And right here is

8:48

another crowding. In

8:50

myself, in a room, small

8:52

tiny room, one bathroom, one shower,

8:56

and two things. Every day,

8:58

activity like breath of tea, shower, we have

9:00

to be quiet together. Even the

9:02

noise is a pollution. What

9:06

is it like to have a mom? Is a

9:08

mom and a co-defendant? Well,

9:10

in... Let's see...

9:14

I don't know how... Mmm. Okay,

9:22

my case... I'm just gonna

9:25

talk about it a little bit. My case has

9:27

to do with... It's

9:30

domestic. So... No,

9:34

I don't like the fact that she got dragged into

9:36

all this. It creates

9:40

a lot of frustration. Yeah.

9:43

Yeah. Do

9:45

you have any thoughts on that? My thought

9:47

is... She

9:50

really don't want me to

9:52

drag in this situation. And as far as I am in... Because

10:00

this mother can

10:02

be close to this daughter because of

10:04

this conviction, I

10:07

feel like I have a belief because

10:09

I don't have to worry about her

10:11

to death if she's by herself that

10:13

drop in this prison and

10:16

I would worry to death. So

10:21

if you were still on the streets, you would be worried, worried?

10:24

If I am on the street, I would be worried

10:26

to death. To

10:28

see her every day in here is not

10:30

the worst. Have

10:34

you learned new things about your daughter since

10:37

you've been here together? Sometimes she

10:40

makes a meal and then I realize, oh,

10:42

she can cook. So

10:44

how would you describe Rosa? She

10:49

respect her mother and there's

10:51

love between us. And

10:54

she also has a daughter. She

10:56

miss her daughter so much. So

10:58

I'm so lucky, I don't have to miss her that

11:00

much. Was

11:03

it a good thing that both of y'all

11:05

were sent to the same place? For

11:08

me, yes, because I don't have to worry as much.

11:13

Yeah, because I mean, there are people

11:16

that are not so nice in prison. There's some

11:18

crazy people that do really crazy things around

11:20

here. So yeah, for

11:22

me, it's mostly a safety thing. Makes

11:26

me feel a little better just knowing she's okay.

11:29

What would happen if one of you got out before

11:31

the other? I mean, is that a possibility? It's

11:35

a definite possibility. Can't

11:37

really imagine what would happen. I

11:40

just remember the last time she went out

11:42

to court, she was out at the county

11:44

jail for resendencing for a few months. And

11:49

I pretty much broke down. You can, well,

11:52

yeah, I was crying all the time. I

11:56

couldn't stop crying sometimes. I get embarrassed when I

11:58

cry in front of... other people. Was you crying

12:01

that you missed her or was you crying that you

12:03

were happy or both? Um

12:06

maybe both. I

12:08

don't know, just she's

12:10

not there. I don't know if she's okay or

12:12

not in county jail. I didn't know what was

12:15

going on. Was part of it also that you

12:17

missed her? Definitely. You

12:21

know it's really unusual to have a

12:23

family member that's in the same prison

12:25

as you and I'm sure it's a

12:28

it's a real comfort you know. Oh

12:31

yeah I mean it's clear that they draw

12:33

a lot of strength from each other. Right.

12:35

I wonder

12:37

if sometimes people are jealous that

12:40

mothers and daughters get to be together. Yes

12:43

they do especially when we speak we can speak

12:45

the second language and they don't

12:47

understand they are very jealous. Yes. We've

12:55

heard a lot about in women's prisons

12:57

how a lot of times in the

12:59

pods they create like a family like

13:01

somebody's the mother somebody's the father. How

13:04

does that work if there is actually a mother in

13:07

the pod? I've

13:09

seen that dynamic a

13:11

lot in here. I see

13:14

a lot of younger people coming in.

13:16

They want that mother figure in their

13:18

lives and they tend to you know

13:20

gravitate towards older women that are kind

13:22

of in charge in here. So

13:24

yeah that's definitely that going on. I

13:28

got a lot of love like the other

13:30

daughters. She might be jealous. The

13:33

other people just come back and say hi

13:35

mom and I really got a lot of

13:37

respect and love around here. Has

13:40

anyone ever wanted you to be their mom here?

13:43

Yes. And how do you deal with that? I

13:46

just give her some love but just give

13:48

her some love and say your love. And

13:51

does Rosa get jealous? Yes. What

13:56

happened? Not angry jealous. Just like hey

13:58

it's my mom. I

14:04

get that. I mean, that's my mom.

14:06

Back off, right? Indeed. Indeed. So

14:09

on that note, we said goodbye. Right.

14:11

But first, we had to take a picture. Are

14:15

you okay with having your pictures taken? What

14:18

did you say? Am I pretty enough? Gorgeous.

14:21

Thank you so much. So I'm ready for the

14:23

picture. All right. Before

14:33

we came out to CCWL, we'd heard that

14:35

talking to these moms and daughters can

14:37

be kind of tricky. Not

14:40

all these relationships are so harmonious as

14:42

Rosa and Ms. Lee. There

14:44

can be some trauma. And

14:46

we'll meet one of those mother-daughter

14:48

combos after the break. Hey,

15:01

Nigel. When you were

15:03

a kid, were you one of those journaling type of

15:05

kids? Erlon, you know me pretty well.

15:07

What would be your guess? Yeah,

15:09

you keep notes. You keep a lot of notes. You could

15:11

see me doing it, right? Yes. Well,

15:14

you are spot on. And I have to ask

15:16

you, when you were a teenager, were you sitting

15:18

there writing love poems, pining for some young

15:21

girl in your class? Not

15:24

on the streets, but maybe when I was in prison. Oh,

15:27

really? Okay. So

15:31

could you ever imagine getting on stage and reading

15:33

one of those out loud? Oh, no, no, no,

15:35

no. No, it sounds awful, doesn't it? Yeah, no,

15:37

I wouldn't want to captivate everybody's hearts. And

15:40

I would not want to dive into

15:42

those journals. But that is exactly what

15:45

happens on our fellow radiotopia show, The

15:47

Mortified Podcast. Mortified is

15:49

back with new episodes celebrating the

15:51

20th anniversary of the stage show

15:53

that inspired the podcast. More laughs,

15:56

more teenage writing, more awkwardness. These

15:58

are such great episodes. I love

16:01

them. So to celebrate, Mortified

16:03

is hosting its first ever

16:05

Tournament of Teen Anks, where

16:07

participants like this person can

16:09

compete for the title of

16:11

Most Mortified. December

16:14

3rd. Matt is

16:16

now president of Da Vinci Arts Middle School,

16:18

and I sit by him, and I love

16:20

him. I

16:23

found a note in the recycling to Matt from

16:25

this girl named Ariel. The note

16:27

is weird. Ariel called him baby. I don't

16:30

even know her, but I'm pretty sure I don't like

16:33

her. She

16:36

sounds like a bitch. Hear

16:39

the podcast that salon name one

16:41

of the decades best. Subscribe to

16:44

Mortified today. Support

16:48

for Ear Hustle comes from Odoo. To

16:50

put it simply, Odoo is built to

16:52

save. Odoo saves time.

16:55

Odoo saves money. But most

16:57

importantly, Odoo saves businesses. That's

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17:12

Learn more at odoo.com/Ear Hustle. That's

17:15

odoo.com slash

17:17

Ear Hustle. Odoo. Saving

17:19

the world one business at a time. This

17:25

show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Erlon,

17:27

you know that I love to make lists

17:29

and keep track of progress. Oh, I

17:31

know you do. And it's cool because life goes

17:33

by fast. It's important to take

17:36

a moment to celebrate your wins. For sure. But

17:38

lists can also help keep track of the

17:40

challenges. You know, the things you want to work

17:42

on. And some of those items

17:45

you kind of want a therapist to talk to about.

17:47

Yeah. Therapy can really help

17:49

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17:51

are holding you back and start making progress with

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your life goals. If you're thinking

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17:58

It's entirely online, designed to be

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18:03

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questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and

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additional charge. Take a moment. Visit

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month. Visit

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betterhelp.com/earhustle.

18:36

The mic has its own fur. It's

18:38

called a dead cat. Believe it or

18:40

not, it's very pretty. It's a dead

18:42

cat to stop the air. The

18:45

air goes around it instead of hitting the mic and you

18:47

hear it just... So

18:50

it kind of stops it. It's cool. You

18:54

want to tell them who you're explaining the basics

18:56

of field recording to, please? This is

18:58

Tina. She's 31 years old. She's

19:01

a young woman, but she's been in

19:03

prison for a while. And

19:05

how long have you been incarcerated? Thirteen

19:08

years. Tina's

19:12

mom is also incarcerated at CCWF.

19:15

Like Rosa and Miss Lee, they're

19:17

co-defendants. So same crime. But

19:19

their relationship was really different.

19:22

Yeah, I mean, we were told that Tina's mom was going to come for

19:24

the interview too, so that we could talk to

19:26

them together. But the mom was

19:28

a no-show. I

19:30

haven't seen her in about probably over

19:32

a month, you know? Yeah.

19:37

Tina and her mom, they used to be housed

19:39

in the same part of the prison, so they'd

19:42

see each other quite often. But then Tina decided

19:44

to make a change and move to a different

19:46

part of the prison. Was

19:50

there like something specific that happened where you were

19:52

like, this is it, I just can't? I

19:55

started feeling like I was just... Honestly,

19:58

my mental health was... fucked up like

20:00

it was bad. I just felt

20:02

like I was being smothered. I felt like

20:05

I couldn't move forward.

20:09

And did you have a conversation with her or did

20:11

you just walk away? I

20:13

just told the the sergeant that

20:16

I needed a bed move to another

20:18

yard. I just

20:20

got up, packed my shit and put it

20:22

in the cart and walked up to the program office and said

20:24

I need a bed move. Wow. Can

20:27

you describe your mom? What is she like? I

20:30

really don't know how to describe her. How

20:33

does she treat you? We

20:36

had a lot of dysfunction growing up. I'm

20:38

adopted, you know, she's my stepmom.

20:40

She's had me since I was about five years

20:42

old. And five

20:45

of us grew up in the household together and I was the

20:47

oldest. So it

20:50

wasn't and nothing to

20:52

talk about, you know. I

20:56

mean, I don't know what to really expect, you

20:59

know. You know,

21:02

you grow up in a situation like that. You

21:04

sometimes you grow up like detached from

21:06

everything other than your day to day responsibilities.

21:09

That's how I grew up. I didn't think

21:11

about much anything other than today I got

21:13

to do this, but I can't

21:15

really put a finger on any of that.

21:17

So. So

21:25

Tina was this, I don't know, very

21:27

interesting combination to me, Erlon. She was

21:29

super present. She seemed really in touch

21:32

with how she feels about things. Very

21:35

open. But

21:37

that openness made me see that there were

21:39

things that were hard for her to express

21:42

because she just didn't really have an experience

21:44

of them. You know, it was like she

21:46

didn't really understand

21:49

or having experience of the positive

21:52

potential that a family could be.

21:54

And so for her, that concept was almost like

21:56

a blank slate. You know, Tina was really young

21:58

when she came to prison. She was just 18. And

22:02

the way she'd been living her life up until then

22:05

sounds a bit chaotic. Yes,

22:07

and the crime she's in for, I mean,

22:09

that very much came out of the chaos

22:11

of that household. Who

22:14

ended up bringing who to jail? So,

22:17

I have six other co-defendants.

22:20

So, it was me, my mom, her

22:22

boyfriend, my boyfriend, my best friend, my

22:26

mom's brother, the

22:28

mom's brother's friend. So,

22:30

there's seven of us. The

22:33

way Tina's crime went down is, Tina

22:36

and her mom were living in this

22:38

apartment with Tina's four siblings and also

22:40

a bunch of housemates. When

22:42

one of those housemates moved out, Tina's

22:44

mom accused him of stealing a laptop

22:46

and a PlayStation. A group

22:48

of them decided to confront the guy. They

22:51

lured him to the house and beat him up

22:53

really bad. Tina and her mom

22:55

were a part of that. Then two of

22:58

the other housemates drove him away and

23:00

killed him. And

23:03

what was it all sentenced to? I'm

23:06

ill, what? Me, my mom,

23:08

and my other

23:11

co-defendant, we all got ill, well,

23:14

life without the possibility of parole.

23:17

I mean, Erlon, her life had hardly

23:19

started. I

23:22

was 18 at the time, so in

23:25

my head, I was like, well, this is the crew,

23:27

this is what we're doing. So, this

23:29

is what we're doing. But

23:31

looking back now, I just, I asked myself,

23:34

would you do that on your own? No,

23:38

but you know, I partook, I did what

23:41

I did, but I

23:44

wouldn't have initiated no mess like that.

23:49

Have you ever talked to her about that

23:52

feeling that you got pulled into something? I

23:56

used to hold it back. I

23:58

don't want to disrespect my mom. I don't want

24:00

to hurt her feelings, or I don't

24:02

want the population to feel like I'm

24:04

just ungrateful and disrespectful. I

24:08

try to express to her, like, I'm not trying

24:11

to point the finger. I'm not trying

24:13

to do any of that. I'm telling

24:15

you where I'm coming from and why

24:17

we can't progress in our

24:19

relationship. I'm

24:22

not minimizing what I did. I

24:24

just want her to acknowledge those

24:26

few things that

24:28

got me this sentence. Just

24:31

say it for what it is. It's all right. When

24:34

I mention it, it turns into an argument

24:37

and a great debate. I'm like, this person

24:39

is probably never going to accept what it

24:41

is that I'm saying. You know

24:43

what I'm saying? This person is probably never going to

24:45

acknowledge me or give me what it is that I

24:48

need. So I need to do it for myself. If

24:54

she was here right now, how do you think she would be

24:56

acting? She

24:58

would probably be a little

25:01

agitated at the things that I'm

25:03

saying. Or she might try

25:05

to act like, oh, this is my daughter. I love

25:08

her. You know?

25:10

Yeah. But we kind of are,

25:12

like, detached from each other. I

25:15

used to be a cutter, you know? So

25:18

I used to

25:21

have these bad suicide attempts just trying

25:23

to get away. Being

25:26

here in prison, when you feel

25:28

that, you just got to do what's best for yourself no

25:30

matter what. Right. And

25:33

I'm not the person that wants

25:36

to sit around arguing and arguing

25:38

and arguing all day, every day,

25:40

or having to explain the same

25:42

thing over and over. I'll

25:44

just move on. Yeah. It

25:47

can be hard to be the person that's doing

25:49

the work and that moves forward because parents

25:53

or whatever, family members, even if they've done

25:55

awful things, they're still part of you that

25:59

wants to love them. and wants to be

26:01

like, it's okay, but at some

26:04

point you can't do it, but that's a really

26:06

hard decision to make, I think. But

26:09

why do you think that is? Even when someone

26:11

is horrible or treated you badly, if it's apparent,

26:13

you still, you want

26:16

them to love you. Where

26:18

do you think that comes from? For

26:20

me personally, me wanting her acceptance comes

26:22

from the

26:26

fact that, like I said, I'm adopted. So

26:29

it's kind of like, this is what I got. So

26:31

if this is what I got, I would want it to

26:34

work. I

26:36

guess wanting to prove myself, like I'm

26:39

worthy. A

26:44

lot of times when people have parents that

26:48

were not great parents, they often

26:50

say they did the best they could. What

26:53

do you think about that when someone says that? It's

26:56

like a band aid, it's an excuse. That's

26:58

why I often feel like it's letting people off the hook, like,

27:01

okay, they did the best they could, but why couldn't

27:03

they have worked a little bit harder? Yeah.

27:08

Hold on. We have, my God,

27:10

hold on here. Did you

27:12

guys need her too? Sure. Yeah. But

27:15

we need a few more minutes. Do you mind, can you? Just

27:17

a couple more minutes. Just a couple more minutes. So

27:19

while we were talking to Tina, this other incarcerated

27:21

woman showed up to be interviewed and she told

27:24

us that she only had a few minutes to

27:26

talk before she had a dental appointment. And we didn't want

27:29

to rush Tina out of the room, so we were

27:31

kind of scrambling, like, what do we do here? I

27:35

don't think, what time is it? I didn't receive

27:37

it, Doug. Oh. They just, they

27:40

just let it on right now. Yeah. Are

27:42

you able to come back after the duck trip? Do you

27:45

think you'll be able to talk? Sure.

27:47

After the dinner time? Yeah. Hello,

27:50

Tina Marie. I forgot my hand. So

27:53

this woman says from the door, hello, Tina

27:56

Marie and Erlon.

27:59

It was really confusing. Yeah,

28:01

I thought I just met the woman in

28:03

prison that can sing like the late Tina

28:05

Marie. Hold up, hold up, hold up. You

28:07

sing like Tina Marie? That's what's up? No,

28:10

that's my name. Okay, I'll just check. Tina

28:12

Marie, get in. Do you know that person? Obviously.

28:14

She's a, she's, that's my mother. No, that was

28:16

the way. That's your mother? That's my mother. Oh

28:18

shit. Yeah. Is

28:21

that older? Yeah. It

28:25

did not occur to us that

28:27

this woman was Tina's mom. It

28:30

was so confusing. Two

28:32

reasons. For one, she

28:34

was white and Tina's black.

28:36

But plus Tina had like zero

28:38

reaction when this woman showed up. So

28:42

there was nothing to suggest that there was

28:44

a close emotional or even like, like, like

28:46

no close emotional relationship. I didn't see anything.

28:48

That was blank. Do you think

28:50

you could see if she's still there? So our

28:52

producer ran after Tina's mom to see if she'd

28:54

come back. Are

28:57

you okay with this? If she comes in? Yeah.

28:59

I suppose it was your mom. Can you introduce

29:02

yourself? Tell us who you are. I'm

29:06

Ryan Odom, Tina Odom's mom. So

29:10

we're doing a story about relationships between

29:13

daughters and moms. Okay. So we

29:15

were just curious about your relationship.

29:20

This was a very strange situation. It's like

29:22

we had to pivot so fast. I didn't

29:24

even know where to begin. Yeah. I

29:26

mean, we had to think on our feet. What

29:29

is it like here? It sucks. Yep.

29:34

And do you try to maintain

29:36

a relationship? It's been

29:38

hard. Looking

29:42

like, can you explain that? Well,

29:45

when she first got here, it was

29:47

actually a week before Mother's

29:50

Day when she came over to the wall. She

29:52

got to D Yard. I was on C Yard. So

29:54

I had her brought over to my yard,

29:56

Charlie Yard, on Mother's Day. And

29:59

then she ended up... move into another yard, to Bravo Yard.

30:02

We haven't been on the same yard since about the end of

30:04

2015, I believe. So it's

30:07

been, for me it's been more difficult,

30:09

I believe. But she's younger, so

30:12

she needed to probably like spread her wings and do

30:14

what she needed to do for her because she was

30:16

young. And

30:19

what does it mean to you to be a mom? It's

30:22

as far as... Well

30:24

like, what is the responsibility of being a

30:26

mom? What is the, you know... Well she's

30:28

my oldest out of five, and

30:33

it hasn't been easy at

30:35

all because our relationship's gone

30:37

downhill. Sorry. We

30:44

don't have any very nice... Sorry, never do

30:46

it here. ...gotta go out as rough as

30:48

tissues and more. Yeah, right. Nudge,

30:51

we gotta start bringing proper

30:53

Kleenex in on these interviews. Totally. How do we not know

30:55

that by now? I mean, it's embarrassing. So

30:59

it's been hard, from my aspect anyway. And you

31:01

have L-WAP as

31:03

well, right? Yes.

31:06

And what is it like serving an L-WAP

31:08

sentence? So when I first first

31:10

got here, I

31:13

was good to go. I want to say within the

31:16

first three years, I had a lot of time.

31:19

And the first three years, I lost hope, went

31:21

through a really bad depression, where I literally

31:24

only got out of bed for meds, shower and chow.

31:26

And I went through that for about two

31:29

and a half, three years. And what is it like to

31:31

have a daughter here with the same sentence? It

31:34

sucks. It sucks. It really sucks. And

31:36

you have somebody here that's close to you that

31:39

you've raised since they were, you know, baby. It's

31:42

very difficult. So

31:46

the whole time her mom was talking, Erlon,

31:48

I was kind of preoccupied. I was

31:50

like really worried about Tina.

31:52

So worried, I was even afraid to look over

31:54

at her. Yeah, I mean, I saw

31:57

her. Her arms were crossed over. She

32:00

was just closed off.

32:04

I know she's mad at me right now. I'm

32:07

mad, I'm just over it. I'm over it. It's

32:10

bullshit. It's the same

32:12

shit. It is

32:14

what it is, which is here. So

32:18

what's there to be mad about? And

32:23

that's kind of her mentality as of late.

32:27

That's not my mentality as of

32:29

late. I'm

32:32

not a kid no more. You don't know me. I'm

32:35

not that same person. I'm not. You

32:39

can't control me

32:41

or puppeteer me. I have my own

32:43

mindset. That's why I wanted to move away in the

32:45

first place. Because I needed

32:47

to make sure that I could grow

32:49

and have my own mindset. So I'm not in

32:51

the situation that

32:54

I was when I was 18. Trying

32:56

to find a way and fall into someone

32:58

else's footsteps. Or fall behind

33:00

somebody I think I love. I

33:04

need to be able to stand my own ground

33:06

and have my own mind no matter what. There's

33:10

nothing wrong with my mentality. I

33:12

grew up with everybody telling me something was wrong

33:14

with me. My mind ain't

33:16

right, all this and all that. And it

33:18

wasn't right because of everything that we were

33:20

enduring. That's why it wasn't

33:22

right. And I didn't try? I'm not saying

33:24

you didn't try. The parenting doesn't come with a

33:26

manual, Tina Marie. I didn't say it did. And

33:28

I had five of you. By myself.

33:31

We acknowledge that. Okay. And

33:33

I did the best I could. By myself. And

33:36

I'm never going to sit here and say I was perfect.

33:38

Ever. Because I'm not. And I'm still not to this day.

33:40

And I'm never going to sit here

33:42

and say you didn't need to spread your wings like I just

33:44

got done saying. And I understand that. And especially hearing you say

33:46

that you do need to be here. You're an adult. You just

33:49

literally sat here and said. That

33:52

your mentality? Yeah. That's that seems

33:54

to be her mentality nowadays. Well, because of what you

33:56

said about like it's over or whatever you just said,

33:58

I'm not sure. because I don't

34:00

want to try to quote you, because I don't want to be wrong about

34:02

it. But this is why

34:04

I tried to have gotten myself,

34:06

because we haven't had a chance to communicate. This is like

34:08

the first time we've had a chance to sit down. I

34:11

don't know how she feels. You

34:14

don't know how she feels? I mean, I do right

34:16

now what she's saying, but other than that, throughout the

34:18

years. Do you want to know?

34:20

Yeah, of course I want to know. I've raised

34:22

her. It's the

34:24

same thing. The acknowledgement.

34:27

I wouldn't have gone out and just

34:29

committed no crime like this. I wouldn't

34:31

have gone out and just did no

34:34

stupid ass shit like this. Like

34:39

what? And then you

34:41

say, and you... I

34:44

don't know her mentality. I've been telling

34:46

you over the years, over and

34:48

over, the same exact things over

34:50

and over. And I just got done sitting

34:52

right here in this room with these people

34:54

saying, you know what? I need to just

34:56

accept myself and get the fuck on with

34:59

myself. That way maybe I can spread my

35:01

wings even more, because I'm never

35:03

going to get that acknowledgement. Whatever it is

35:05

that I'm looking for, obviously

35:07

you can't give it. I mean, nobody's ever going

35:09

to but yourself. I had to give it to

35:11

myself, because my momma sure couldn't. Nobody's

35:13

going to be able to but you. Yeah, but your mom didn't put you

35:16

in prison either. OK, and I didn't

35:18

put you here. Our

35:20

situation put us here. Erlon,

35:26

at this point, I mean, my stomach

35:28

was hurting. My hands were sweating. I

35:31

just felt like we were so out of our

35:33

depth. And I was worried, like, are we harming

35:35

these people? It was... I've

35:39

never been in a situation like that before. It was

35:41

one of them situations where it seemed like they were

35:43

talking past one another. I

35:46

don't think Ryan was hearing what

35:49

her daughter was asking for. But

35:52

it was also like, what is all this stuff that's coming

35:54

up for them? What

35:57

responsibility are we supposed to take in a situation

35:59

like that? like this. I was really worried about

36:02

the emotional fallout.

36:05

And we were going to go home and they weren't.

36:07

Right. I remember you and I were just

36:09

kind of wondering, like, what do we do

36:11

here? Exactly. Then

36:13

our producer, Amy, stepped in with an idea. You

36:16

know, Tina was talking to us about sort of

36:18

what... Tina told me if

36:20

this is okay to say, but she was

36:22

talking about what she wishes she could hear.

36:25

And it seemed like it was actually something

36:27

fairly simple and straightforward. Maybe not. But

36:29

I wondered if Nigel and Erlon could

36:32

sort of say some of that back to your mom,

36:35

if she could hear what they heard you ask

36:37

for. Would that feel okay? This

36:40

one? Yeah, you all right with this? Of course.

36:42

Yeah. I mean, what I heard her

36:45

say is that what she really needs

36:47

from you is an acknowledgement that

36:50

you had a part in her

36:52

getting here and she feels

36:54

like you've never been able to say that to

36:57

her, that you're sorry. Tina

37:01

Marie, from this day, from this

37:03

moment, I apologize for putting you

37:05

in prison. For

37:08

any part that I played, for

37:11

you being here, any

37:13

fault that I have for

37:15

you being in prison, I

37:18

sincerely apologize with every being

37:20

in my body. I apologize

37:23

to you. And I'm still trying

37:25

to get us out of here. I'm

37:28

saying it to your face right now. And

37:34

I apologize. I'm sorry. I

37:41

don't know. Is that an apology? I

37:44

don't think she's acknowledging it

37:46

to the point that Tina wants it.

37:48

I don't know if it's the same thing when

37:50

people say, I'm sorry if I made you feel

37:52

this way. Do you know what I

37:54

mean? It's still putting the

37:56

majority of the blame on the person who

37:59

feels that way. It's like somehow I

38:01

don't know. It's not I know I've said

38:03

that to people before and I gotta rethink

38:05

that because it's not very helpful It's not

38:07

taking responsibility It's

38:10

not saying I did this or

38:12

I'm responsible for this, you know,

38:15

but it's halfway there. She's getting

38:17

there And

38:21

I love you and I always have the moment

38:23

I laid eyes on you what

38:25

types told you several millions of times I

38:31

love you Do

38:43

you mind if I say something Do

38:48

you mind if I step in I don't know if you want to say something

38:51

Do you think sometimes a relationship just gets to

38:53

a point where you need to walk away from

38:56

each other? I don't want

38:58

to because I love her so much, but I know

39:00

if that's what she needs I'm never gonna stop her

39:02

from doing what she needs. She's grown. I Would

39:05

hurt of course and

39:07

it would of course bother me, but I'm

39:09

not gonna just stand in her way, you

39:11

know My thought that

39:13

that's what she's wanted a few times So I

39:15

have tried to like step back and not bother

39:17

her but then I'm like, is this what she wants?

39:19

I don't know, you know, I'm not a mind reader. So

39:22

then I always try to be the one to reach out Get

39:25

my wrong for reaching out because do you want me to leave

39:27

you alone? I don't know I don't

39:30

yeah, I mean only she can answer it but it does seem

39:32

like there might be a time when somebody

39:35

needs to say I just can't be in this

39:37

relationship because it's not healthy for me and I Would

39:41

love for us to get counseling. I would love for

39:43

us to make amends. I would love for us to

39:45

not dwell on our past so much Because

39:48

I really feel like past hinders growth I

39:51

feel like that a lot because if I do it

39:53

on my past Before I was

39:56

you know, an adult I would good Lord. I've had

39:58

her since I was 18 years I'm a 10 years old.

40:03

Yeah, I mean, we're not therapists

40:05

and I feel like I'm in a place

40:08

that I'm not. You

40:10

know, the. Communication is

40:13

everything and then knowing how each other feel

40:15

is everything. You know what I'm saying? Because

40:17

I'm fairly certain that, you know, she's standing on

40:20

her principles of who she is today. Yeah. You

40:22

know, and, you know, a lot of stuff

40:25

and cleared up in her life. And it seems

40:27

like she's trying to just move forward. Yeah. I

40:30

don't see her necessarily not wanting a relationship

40:32

with you, but I just see her as

40:34

wanting you to acknowledge the woman that she

40:36

is today. Yeah. And I've always said she's

40:39

an awesome young, when she was younger, she's not even, she's

40:41

a grown adult now, she's in her thirties. She's

40:43

amazing to me, but I used to tell her

40:45

she was an awesome young lady, beautiful young lady, but she used

40:47

to not like that so much, but she's an

40:49

awesome woman now. I

40:53

do want her to continue to grow and I

40:55

don't want to be the hindrance for that ever.

40:58

So if whatever she would like,

41:00

I will definitely honor her decision.

41:07

So at this point, Tina was just sitting

41:09

there in silence. Tina,

41:16

can you talk or would you rather not say

41:18

anything? You

41:25

want me to live a little while, baby? Give

41:30

you some time to think or do you

41:32

want to, it's up to you, honey, I'm not going to pressure you.

41:35

This just took a whole different path.

41:40

This is why I just get

41:44

quiet. This

41:46

just went way like this. Like, well,

41:50

this is why I've been wanting to have some type of

41:52

something with you. I want to interrupt, I just want to

41:54

say that I think it's up to Tina to say right

41:56

now if she wants you to leave or if she wants

41:58

to talk. I feel like all

42:00

of a sudden this just became something she didn't sign

42:03

up for. And I'd like her to

42:05

have the power to say, yes or no. You

42:09

guys are doing

42:11

mother-daughter relationships. I

42:14

just see what I see. It

42:16

just went one way. And

42:18

it just took a turn. The

42:21

dynamics, it just took a turn. Like, I

42:24

know. Would

42:28

you like to end this right now?

42:31

I know. If you'd like to continue your journey.

42:33

No, no, no. This is up to you. No,

42:35

no, it's good. It's good.

42:37

We're here. Well,

42:42

I also feel worried. Like, we just ambushed Tina.

42:45

And that's not what we were here to do. And I

42:47

feel really bad about it. No, no.

42:50

It's good. We

42:53

both could have just been like, or I could have just

42:55

been like, no, I'm good. I'm cool. It

42:58

is what it is. Here we are. I

43:04

guess being a mother and acknowledging maybe your

43:06

faults or her being a daughter and acknowledging

43:08

who she is and

43:10

what she brought to the table or whatever, respecting

43:14

her like you respect anybody else and

43:17

give her that same latitude, I think. That's

43:20

true. Did you get

43:22

anything out of that, Tina, from this conversation

43:24

that feels helpful? I

43:30

was very low. Yeah. Yeah.

43:36

No, but I want to. But can you stay a little bit just

43:38

on your own? Just so

43:40

we can say goodbye and are

43:43

you just done? At

43:51

that point, it seemed to me there was nothing

43:54

else to do except turn the recorder off and

43:56

give them both some privacy. what

44:01

was going to play out. And

44:05

so we're going to have

44:07

to explain what happens since we don't have a recording of

44:09

it. So we

44:11

turned the recorder off. Ryan, she headed

44:13

off to her dental appointment, and we

44:15

just hung out for a quick

44:17

minute and chopped it up. And remember, we realized

44:20

that we all had something in common. Yeah,

44:22

we were all lefties. Yes,

44:24

and we'd all been put in

44:26

special ed because we

44:29

had learning disabilities. It's

44:31

not funny, Nigel. It's still funny to me.

44:34

And excluding me, everybody

44:37

had bad handwriting. Okay, well,

44:39

remember we're all lefties. So we

44:41

did that thing where we just all compared our

44:44

handwriting. And, Erlon, you're right. Yours isn't so bad.

44:46

I've spent a lot of time in prison,

44:48

Nigel. He learned to write. Well, Tina

44:50

and I were like a competition for who was

44:52

the worst handwriting. And so remember, I showed her

44:55

my trick where if you write backwards, then your

44:57

handwriting looks awesome. And even you were impressed by

44:59

my backwards handwriting. Oh, definitely. You got that

45:01

down pat. And I think once

45:03

you showed that we were all laughing

45:05

and the mood changed, it got a

45:07

lot lighter. Yeah, I mean, it

45:09

really felt good to see her smiling. And

45:13

there was just a relief around that. Right. But

45:16

when we started working on the episode, I really

45:18

wanted to reach out to her again. I mean,

45:20

the whole team wanted to reach out to her

45:22

and see how she was doing. And if things

45:24

have changed with her mother, it was really weighing

45:27

heavy on me. And we tried. We

45:29

definitely tried. But right now, there are

45:31

these strict rules about getting in touch

45:33

with incarcerated people if you go into

45:35

those institutions. Yeah. I mean,

45:37

it's not like we can just call somebody. And

45:40

it makes it hard. So I'm sure

45:42

listeners are really curious too. And

45:45

I hope that we're going to catch up with her maybe what,

45:47

later in the summer? Maybe as we get ready for

45:49

the next season. I hope it's before that. I just want

45:51

everyone to know we are anxious to know how she's doing. And

45:53

we will report back for sure. And

45:57

I guess we're going to

45:59

leave. season 13 like that? That's

46:02

right because this is the final episode

46:04

of the season and I'm gonna say

46:07

Erlon I'm gonna call this season 13

46:09

our adventurous season we did so many

46:11

different things like we spent time in

46:13

the hospice which is up there

46:15

with one of my favorite episodes we've ever done.

46:18

We did do an episode about a

46:20

poem. A whole episode! That

46:22

was an experiment. That was a

46:25

beautiful one and I was allowed to

46:27

dive deeper into my personal interest of

46:29

the inner life of objects on a

46:31

couple of episodes and we got a

46:33

chance to surprise each other with our

46:35

mystery episodes and we're definitely doing that

46:37

again next season and guess what Erlon? Hmm

46:39

yep I've already started working on mine. That's

46:42

bullshit. That's true. Season 13 was a good one. And

46:44

season 14 launches September 4th. But

46:52

definitely check our feed during the summer because we

46:54

will have some good stuff in there in between

46:57

seasons while we are working on season 14.

46:59

So keep

47:01

a ear open. Stuff like what? We're

47:03

gonna have some behind-the-scenes stuff. We

47:06

might have something from San Quentin. We

47:08

are gonna be talking about... what am I

47:10

telling everything? I

47:12

was just putting you on a stand to see if you start testifying.

47:15

Oh my god I haven't learned anything. So

47:18

season 14 be on the lookout for that. Yes. My

47:25

name is Lieutenant Monique Williams.

47:27

I am currently

47:30

the Public Information Officer

47:32

and Administrative Assistant toward

47:34

an Anissa Delacruz at

47:36

Central California Women's Facility.

47:39

Right now I am preparing and

47:41

planning for our CCWF June

47:44

Teent Event. Ear

47:46

Hustle is produced by Nigel Poor, Erlon

47:49

Woods, and Amy Standen, Bruce

47:51

Wallace, and Rasan New

47:54

York Thomas. Shub Nums

47:56

Sigmund is the managing producer. team

48:00

inside of San Quentin includes

48:02

D'Aurel Sadiq Davis, Tony

48:05

DeTrenadat, and Tom Nguyen.

48:08

The inside Manatee producer is

48:11

Tony Tafoya. Thanks

48:13

to Act Awarding Andes and

48:16

Lieutenant Barry at San Quentin, and

48:18

Acting Warden Parker, Associate Warden

48:20

Lewis, and Lieutenant Newborg at

48:22

the California Institution for Women

48:25

for their Support of the Show.

48:28

And as the Public Information Officer

48:30

for the Central California Women's Facility,

48:32

it is my job to approve

48:34

this episode. This episode

48:36

was made possible by the Just Trust, building

48:39

a smaller, more humane engine of

48:41

justice and safety across the country.

48:44

For more information about this episode, check out

48:47

the show notes on Ear Hustle's website, earhustlesq.com.

48:52

You can also find out more about

48:54

the show on Instagram, Facebook,

48:57

and YouTube at EarHustlesq.

49:03

Erlon Woods Sound Designs and Engineers

49:06

the Show, with help from Fernando

49:08

Arruda, Harry Colhane, and D'Aurel Sadiq

49:10

Davis. Music for this

49:13

episode comes from Fernando Arruda,

49:15

Antoine Williams, Rashid Zinneman, D'Aurel

49:17

Sadiq Davis, and me, Erlon

49:19

Woods. Want more Ear Hustle?

49:22

Subscribe to Ear Hustle Plus. We've got

49:24

bonus episodes and live chats where we get to

49:26

chop it up with listeners about the show. You

49:29

can subscribe at earhustlesq.com/plus,

49:31

or in the Apple

49:34

Podcasts app. And

49:36

don't forget to sign up

49:38

for our newsletter, The Low

49:40

Down, at earhustlesq.com/newsletter. And while

49:43

you're at it, leave us a review on Apple

49:45

Podcasts. That's a big help for the show, and

49:47

we appreciate you for it. Ear

49:49

Hustle is a proud member

49:51

of Radiotopia from PRX, a

49:54

network of independent, creator-owned, listener-supported

49:56

podcasts. I'm

50:01

Nigel Poor. And I'm Erlon Woods.

50:04

Thanks for listening this whole

50:06

season. We're going to miss you all. Bye.

50:09

I'll see you on social. Definitely on social. Time

50:21

is running out to donate to our annual

50:23

fundraiser and we can't do it without you.

50:25

Every gift makes a difference to us. It all adds

50:27

up and helps us get closer to our goal of

50:29

how many people Erlon do we want to get? One

50:32

thousand donors. One thousand. Very exciting.

50:35

We appreciate two thousand but we're going after one thousand. You're pushing it E.

50:38

And it's super easy. It takes only a

50:40

minute to add your name to the growing

50:42

list of Ear Hustle supporters. Are you

50:44

on that list? I am definitely on that list.

50:47

I knew you would be. Check out

50:49

earhustlesq.com or click on the link in

50:51

the show notes to help us out.

50:54

Thank you so much. Good looking out.