0:01

Hey, this is Brian Watt with KQED. The

0:04

following episode of Ear Hustle contains

0:07

language and content that may not be

0:09

suitable for all listeners. Discretion

0:11

is advised.

0:13

Okay,

0:15

this is going to be fun.

0:21

Being straight is like an anomaly in

0:23

here. You

0:28

know, I like to skip sometimes. Because

0:30

you don't skip on a men's prison. Ever.

0:34

Ever. Yeah. His way of learning

0:36

was, you know, maybe I'll stop by your cell and

0:38

show you the rest of my tattoos sometime, you know?

0:42

I'm Nigel Poor. I'm Erlon Woods,

0:44

and this is Ear Hustle from PRX's

0:46

Radiotopia. This is Pride

0:49

Month, so we're doing something that's

0:51

new for us. Pulling together stories

0:53

we've told on Ear Hustle over the years about

0:55

the LGBTQ community inside

0:58

prison.

0:59

We're going to start with one of my favorite Ear Hustle

1:01

episodes, a San Quentin love story.

1:04

It's called Boots and Max.

1:09

So in 2019, this guy came to

1:12

San Quentin, and he and I hit

1:14

it off immediately. The

1:18

connection was so good, I literally remember

1:20

the day. He walked me back to West

1:22

Block, and he showed me a couple of

1:24

his tattoos. His way of learning was, you

1:26

know, maybe I'll stop by your cell and show you the rest of

1:28

my tattoos sometime, you know?

1:31

And I laughed. I was like, yeah, yeah, sure,

1:33

you know? I

1:35

took a few more steps, and then I said, wait,

1:38

are you fucking serious? Right? Because

1:42

I thought he was joking. What, me? You've

1:45

got to be kidding me, right? I

1:47

couldn't believe that someone as amazing as him

1:50

would take an interest in me. Max

1:52

is a nine, and I'm like a two. He

1:55

chased me, not the other way around,

1:58

you know?

1:59

He's got a beautiful smile and

2:02

he's got this intelligent sense

2:04

of humor, like smart sense of humor. And

2:07

he's got this like rich voice, you

2:09

know, it's just like it's nice to listen to. Like

2:12

there's like all this stuff about him that's just

2:14

very very attractive, right?

2:18

Since this is audio, will

2:20

you, since you've described him in depth, will you describe

2:22

yourself in depth? I'm short, fat and ugly. Three

2:24

easy words to just take, take very

2:27

good care of that description right off the bat. Oh

2:31

yeah, I've got these tiny little ears that look like Chicharrones,

2:34

like little pork skins.

2:38

I've got a question for you now. Yes. How

2:41

does his ears look like Chicharrones? Okay, well

2:43

it was funny that he used that word because I

2:45

think you know I really love Chicharrones, right? Whenever

2:47

we go on a road trip, that's my snack. I

2:49

recognize those ears. There's like just little curly,

2:52

small, kind of like a shrimp.

2:56

So Max and Boots started dating and

2:58

it's a little hard for me to imagine because honestly,

3:01

I don't know if I can think of

3:03

a less romantic place in the world than a prison.

3:06

I mean, yeah, I mean there's no privacy. Where

3:09

do you go on dates? Well, I mean,

3:12

you got to look at it probably through the eyes of

3:14

the individuals that's falling in love, you know.

3:16

It probably looks like a Venice

3:19

or something.

3:20

Right, so what you're saying is when

3:22

you're in love, everything looks beautiful? Probably looks

3:24

totally different.

3:30

I mean, we'd sit in the lower yard watching the

3:33

baseball games. It was late summer, you know,

3:37

summer was going down by Mount Tam

3:39

and I mean, come

3:41

on, this is the shit that people do on the streets, right?

3:44

You know, you go watch a

3:46

baseball game in the late evening and just watch

3:49

the fucking sun go down. It's crazy.

3:52

It's like, it's normal shit.

3:55

Honestly, I felt like I wasn't in prison. He

3:59

took me out of... of this place. But

4:04

unfortunately, being openly gay in prison

4:07

isn't a romance novel. It can actually

4:09

be pretty complicated and even risky.

4:12

There are definitely a lot of guys in prison

4:14

who aren't okay with people

4:16

being gay. And to be honest,

4:19

I don't think this happens a lot, but sometime,

4:21

I mean, there can be violence.

4:24

Yeah, I mean, I gotta say, the

4:26

prisons I've been to are some of the most homophobic

4:29

places I've ever been. And

4:31

for Max, it got really bad. Boot

4:34

said the problem started when Max moved into

4:36

a new housing unit.

4:37

H unit, dorm living. It

4:39

is totally different than living in a cell. It's

4:41

completely open, there's so many people, no

4:44

privacy. You're

4:46

really exposed.

4:49

Immediately, the stresses, the

4:53

problems, the harassment, he's the only gay guy

4:55

in the building he was

4:57

in. He's

5:00

not a weak guy, he's a Marine Corvette, and

5:02

he's not flamboyant either. Not

5:04

a person who bothers people, gets in

5:06

their way, he's not a rat, not any of that stuff.

5:09

Got along very well with everyone, but

5:12

one guy. It

5:16

was about 10 minutes after eight o'clock

5:18

at night, and this guy in my tier came

5:21

to my bars and said, hey, I don't

5:23

know what has happened, but they just took Max off

5:25

the yard on the back of a cart

5:27

and he was covered in blood.

5:30

I don't know, my mind just, I was

5:32

just blank. I just, I jumped up, I grabbed my ID

5:34

and I ran. Couple of guys

5:38

on the yard were like, yeah, they took Max,

5:40

they took Max. They

5:43

were saying his blood was on the ground back

5:45

there. I

5:47

was fucking furious. You

5:50

know, I've spent a lot of my life

5:53

in these places. I had no

5:56

idea, except to.

5:59

to try to level that playing

6:02

field in some kind of way. Just

6:05

like, I'm sure, 90% of everyone else

6:07

in this place, when

6:10

somebody hurts you, you hurt back. Every

6:13

chance I got, I was going out of the yard, trying

6:17

to find the guy and trying

6:19

to find out who he was and just

6:21

being, honestly, being an idiot. And

6:25

finally, this guy that knew

6:27

the guy was pointing

6:29

him out to me, that's

6:31

him right there. And as he's telling me, there's

6:34

one cop coming from this direction, two cops coming from another

6:36

direction, and they were escorting him off

6:38

the yard.

6:43

I don't have a history of being loved

6:46

and appreciated and cared for, and

6:49

so having that and then losing

6:51

it and having no information

6:53

on how he was doing and whether he was okay,

6:56

I had no idea how to deal with that.

7:09

I identify as a fag most of the time,

7:11

but yes, I'm gay. Why

7:14

do you choose that word? Um...

7:19

Well, is it okay to just speak freely

7:21

like normally? Okay, it's basically a fuck

7:23

you to all the guys that hate faggots and queers

7:25

and punks and everything else.

7:28

Prison is probably 20 or 25 years behind the times,

7:32

and there's a lot of prejudice and there's a lot of bullshit, and

7:35

so

7:37

calling myself a faggot is like getting to the punchline before

7:39

everybody else does. It

7:42

takes the power back a little bit. I'm

7:45

just wondering, like, we always hear this thing,

7:48

like we can take the power back from words

7:50

by just calling ourselves that, and

7:52

I wonder if that's what's really happening, or do we

7:54

just like...

7:56

is that just our coping mechanism? Well,

8:01

it probably is part that. Maybe

8:04

a mixture of both. I don't think everything is as clear

8:07

cut, psychologically is just

8:09

one thing. But

8:12

hearing the words on the tier like I do, even

8:15

in here where I work

8:16

at, I hear it. I hear it all

8:18

day, every day. My

8:20

ways is just be like, you know what, fuck it, I'm gonna own

8:23

it. You know? I'm a fag

8:25

if you don't like it. You know?

8:28

That's your problem. That's not mine. I

8:32

wanna point out the way you said the word

8:34

faggot. You said it in a very different

8:36

way, which was with gusto

8:39

and some kind of, I would say almost relish.

8:42

When you said it to me the first time, I was like, ooh, he

8:45

really loves that word.

8:46

I think maybe it might help to understand

8:49

too, where I came from. I

8:51

didn't actually come out of the closet

8:54

until my 30s. I had experiences,

8:56

but I didn't own it. I've hated

9:00

gay

9:01

people. I have attacked

9:03

men for acting in

9:07

a way that I perceived as being feminine. Now

9:10

that I've not only come out,

9:12

but also overcome a lot

9:14

of the prejudice and the stereotypes and being in

9:17

prison and being one of the

9:19

most hated demographics, or if

9:21

not hated, then at least stereotyped.

9:26

You know, and I call myself a fag. I'm a big old fag,

9:28

you know? I own that shit, it's mine, you

9:30

know? And that's kind of the way I see it.

9:32

Yeah.

9:33

You know, I'm a man who loves men. What's

9:35

the big deal, you know? Yeah. Max

9:39

was in the hospital for 23 days, and

9:41

Boots was just waiting for news

9:43

about how he was doing. He had

9:45

to have spinal fusion surgery,

9:48

had to have his jaw put

9:51

back together because the entire bottom half

9:53

was split. The hinge of

9:55

his jaw was shattered. His nose

9:57

was broken, his eye socket was shattered.

9:59

between Marin General Hospital and

10:02

the hospital here for 23 days. Eventually,

10:07

Max was brought back to the hospital at San

10:09

Quinn. But it wasn't like Boots could

10:11

visit him there. Nope. I

10:14

used to go out to the yard at night and hold up these

10:16

signs to his window. He's

10:18

on the fourth floor. I knew what

10:20

room he was in. What would they say? I

10:22

said, I woof you.

10:23

He says what? I made

10:25

these signs on poster board,

10:27

taped together, you know, and I held him up

10:29

and said, come back, come back, come back. I

10:32

actually made a shirt one time. Took a white

10:35

t-shirt and put a big old

10:36

paw print on it. That's

10:38

like adorable and it's so

10:41

wonderful. But like prison is not a place

10:43

where you think of people showing, you

10:45

know, that kind of fun

10:47

loving, exuberant, I don't

10:49

care, I just love this person, kind

10:52

of spectacle. I gotta ask New

10:54

Yorker a question. What does it feel like

10:56

hearing about someone experiencing this kind of love

10:58

in prison?

10:59

I'm jealous because I don't

11:01

have the same opportunity. Do

11:04

you think that drives some of the homophobia? I

11:07

don't know, but I'm definitely jealous. I'm definitely hating now. Yeah,

11:12

New York, that's gonna be hard. Yeah, yeah,

11:15

yeah, yeah. You

11:19

know, Erlon, I was really struck

11:22

by New York's reaction that kind of jealousy

11:25

never occurred to me

11:26

before. Well, I mean, you know,

11:28

prison can be really lonely. I mean,

11:30

there's a lot of feelings that you put on

11:32

hold, you know, while you're in there.

11:34

Yeah, I bet. Finally,

11:39

after 23 days, Max was

11:41

released from the hospital. Boots said

11:44

he first caught sight of him as Max

11:46

was being escorted down to tear by guards.

11:49

Max is one of those, okay, so he's

11:51

Mexican, right? With this

11:53

very thick, like, luxurious beard,

11:56

right?

11:57

When

12:00

I first came back from the hospital, he hardly

12:02

had any beard at all because he had

12:04

to have surgeries and all this stuff. So

12:06

most of it was gone.

12:08

And so at first he didn't even look the same.

12:11

Couldn't even hug him, I couldn't even hold

12:13

on to him, I couldn't do nothing. And

12:16

what I wanted to do was just snatch

12:18

him up and fucking

12:21

protect him and drag him in the cell and just

12:23

kiss him and make everything

12:25

be better.

12:27

I couldn't do none of that. Could

12:29

you touch each other through the... So

12:31

through the bars, holding hands to the bars. And

12:33

my celly's behind me, my celly's straight. Kind

12:36

of conservative, Filipino, lifer.

12:40

Really good dude, but conservative.

12:43

So I'm trying to keep the conversation a little bit clean

12:46

and not make him uncomfortable, but at the same time, like

12:48

I'm like jumping at the bit.

12:50

But like where you put like your fingers? Yeah, absolutely.

12:53

We're holding hands through the bars and trying to block

12:55

that with my body, you know.

13:00

Man, my heart was like just going

13:02

crazy. I was all smiles

13:04

and finally, you know, I didn't even care, I kissed

13:06

him through the bars. And then my celly behind me, I heard

13:08

my celly behind me, oh my fucking God, you know.

13:14

And after all that trauma and everything

13:17

they went through, the months that followed,

13:19

I mean, they actually got to live

13:21

together, just like a couple on the outside.

13:23

So

13:25

how long did you have together after he got out

13:27

of the... So we only had

13:30

another eight months, I

13:32

think after he came back. Okay, and those

13:34

were great eight months. Oh, that was amazing. The

13:37

celly that I had moved to North Block and

13:41

Max moved in myself. The guy's just telling

13:43

me, this is crazy, I can't believe you're

13:45

actually here.

13:49

It's amazing, you know, that I had to come to prison to meet

13:51

somebody I've never had an argument with. I've

13:53

got this tattoo right here on my

13:56

wrist, it's a little paw print, it says

13:58

woof. Well.

13:59

He's got one

14:02

too, we've got the same matching

14:04

tattoos.

14:08

I love him, he's the first person in my life that

14:10

ever loved me back, you know?

14:15

So what happened to Max, ultimately? So Max paroled. He

14:20

paroled June 10th, right

14:22

before the coronavirus outbreak, 2020. And he's doing very

14:26

well. He's

14:28

working for Warner Brothers now as a

14:30

camera operator, and we'll be working the Super Bowl

14:32

this year. Oh, that's cool. Yeah,

14:36

I'm so proud of him. He's doing real, real good.

14:40

So now that he's gone, do you

14:43

find yourself living in that memory? All

14:46

the time, every day. Every

14:49

single day. I've got a little

14:51

notebook, actually. I

14:56

got right notes to him all the time, and it's

15:00

got a little teal leather cover on it. So

15:04

I get all filled up, I'll send it to him.

15:06

There's

15:10

a physical place of safety and

15:13

happiness and just well-being,

15:15

you know? When

15:17

you love somebody and when they love you back, and

15:20

it's okay to be a fucking man and still

15:23

be a little bit vulnerable.

15:30

You're not supposed to get that in prison, but

15:34

we did.

15:48

We'll be right back with more stories

15:51

from Ear Hustle's Pride Month Special.

16:07

We thank you. Ear Hustle is brought to

16:09

you by Progressive, where customers who save

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by switching their home and car save nearly $800

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on average, quote at progressive.com.

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National average 12 month savings of $793

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by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between

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June 2021 and May 2022. Potential

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savings will vary.

16:45

This next piece comes from one of our Catch

16:47

a Kite episodes from a couple of seasons back.

16:50

Remember that one, Nigel? The one where we

16:53

got incarcerated men and women to trade

16:55

kites with each other?

16:56

Yes. So they finally

16:58

got the opportunity to satisfy their

17:00

curiosity about what life

17:03

is like in those other prisons.

17:05

Right. Places where they can't normally

17:07

go. My name is John Levin and I've been incarcerated

17:09

for 13 years. One of the questions I have

17:12

would be, do they think about

17:14

men as often as we think about women? That

17:17

was one question I had. We

17:19

gave that one to an incarcerated woman named

17:22

Markeisha Scott. No.

17:25

I don't believe that's true. Being

17:28

straight is like an anomaly

17:30

in here. It's weird. You

17:32

know, so a lot

17:34

of women in here, they don't think about men

17:37

because they're not intimate. Most

17:39

of them have been hurt by a man. They

17:42

don't want to deal with men. So I

17:44

don't think that they think about men half

17:47

as much as you guys

17:49

think about women. My

17:53

first thought was not in your wildest dreams.

17:58

And here's Alice Copeland.

18:00

Many of these gals in here have husbands

18:02

and they have boyfriends and they have significant

18:05

others on the outside. But

18:07

when it comes to sex, they

18:09

partner up real quick in here. Some

18:12

of them eventually become roommates and

18:14

end up with interesting romances.

18:18

But they still have the husbands and they still have

18:20

the boyfriends and they still have the significant

18:22

others. And I

18:24

watched it happen over and over and over.

18:27

The guys said, well crap, she's

18:30

gone for the duration so that's the end of that shit. They

18:32

changed their phone numbers and they're

18:35

gone and they come unglued. They're

18:38

angry as all hell and they don't want

18:40

anything to do with men for a long time after

18:42

that. So again, they

18:45

look for companionship where they can get it. Or

18:48

you got the women in here that, hey, you

18:50

know, they let their fingers do the walking. You know,

18:53

they take care of themselves.

18:56

We can't speak for all women's prisons, but

18:58

at least at the one where we spent time, gay

19:01

relationships were, I

19:03

mean, just out in the open. It's an open, yeah. No big

19:05

deal. You know, just like Rakeshia

19:07

and Alice were saying. And in men's

19:09

prison, like we heard in Boots and Max's

19:11

story, not so much.

19:19

So Sinkley, who is Mike Adams? A

19:22

gentle, sensitive, God-fearing

19:25

man who has struggles and challenges like

19:27

everybody else and just

19:29

wants to be loved and to love. Sing about it.

19:33

And

19:52

some lonely nights.

19:56

But when I,

19:59

when I...

20:00

I look around

20:03

and I think things

20:06

over. This

20:08

is Mike Adams. He's currently incarcerated

20:11

at San Quentin State Prison.

20:13

I think there's a lot of homophobia in prison.

20:17

The environment in itself is based

20:19

on hyper-masculinity, you know, kind of the alpha

20:21

male. And so homosexuality

20:24

or any LGBT issues actually

20:27

undermine the strength because heterosexual

20:31

people see it as a weakness. And

20:33

so where it's a kill or be

20:35

killed or survival of the fittest man set in prison,

20:38

homosexuality is seen as a fault,

20:41

as really a liability. And

20:43

so for people who have seen that and maybe

20:45

have experienced homosexuality or

20:48

are homosexuals or lesbians or transgenders,

20:51

to survive,

20:52

they have to hide. And that's internalized fear.

20:56

Mike's a part of a group called ACT, Acting

20:59

with Compassion and Truth. They get together

21:01

and talk about LGBTQ issues.

21:05

And I'm hoping that my ability to identify

21:08

in the way that I do with the LGBTQ community

21:10

helps to bridge a gap of understanding

21:13

about what people are. There's always a backstory.

21:15

Some of what you're doing here is about the backstory.

21:19

And people don't want to hear the backstory, especially

21:21

if it challenges the ideas about something.

21:25

Back in 2018, when we talked to Mike,

21:28

Sam Quentin had just screened a movie

21:30

inside the prison that caused

21:32

a huge stir.

21:34

Recently, we saw the movie Moonlight. And

21:36

the images were of a strong black man, right,

21:39

muscular, got the durag on,

21:41

the gold change, right? And a lot of people were

21:43

offended by that because that's not the image that society

21:46

paints of homosexuals. And

21:48

so it makes you uncomfortable when

21:50

a place that you walk in as a black

21:52

man, right,

21:53

or any man, for that matter. And

21:56

all of a sudden, you can identify with the external

21:58

that you see in this person. But internally,

22:01

he's informed by something else. So there's this

22:03

whole other dynamic of who am

22:05

I and what does that happen to be. So people, yeah,

22:07

it's crazy to live it.

22:10

Erlon, when Moonlight played at San Quentin, it

22:12

was the most I ever heard guys yell down in the

22:14

media lab. I mean, they were really offended

22:17

by it.

22:17

Yeah, last year there was a screening of the

22:19

movie up in the chapel and I didn't go, but

22:22

I heard a lot of people walked out.

22:24

Erlon, you and I had this conversation back

22:26

in 2018. And

22:31

do you think that screening Moonlight now would

22:33

be such a big deal? Not

22:37

really.

22:37

I mean, some people are definitely

22:39

gonna be like, ah, but then San

22:42

Quentin is pretty much a different prison now.

22:44

Do you think that just like on the outside,

22:46

the attitudes are changing, it's the same inside? I

22:49

mean, I think it boils down to people just

22:51

minding their own business. Staying

22:54

out of other people's business, it ain't your lifestyle,

22:56

you ain't living it, let it be.

23:02

["The The

23:35

The

23:36

My born name was Kamisha Rich. I changed

23:38

my name to Marcel Robanes, which

23:41

is my family last name. And

23:43

Marcel is what my mother would have named her,

23:45

named me if I would have been a boy.

23:48

This comes from a story about a trans

23:50

man named Marcel, who had just

23:52

been released from a woman's prison after

23:54

serving 23 years.

23:57

I've been in a box from 15. to 41.

24:01

Even though I lived my life as a boy, I still

24:04

was a child. I'm

24:06

learning how to be an adult free. Then

24:09

I'm learning how to be an adult male. Right?

24:12

So that's two. And then I have a lot

24:14

of negative male characteristics that

24:16

I have. That's three. That's stuff

24:18

that I've learned from growing up. Like

24:21

my belief system was for a long time was like,

24:23

I should have all the girls. I'm handsome. I can get

24:26

any, you know, I should have five girlfriends

24:27

and everybody should know about it. Everybody should

24:29

get along. I didn't know that I was womanizing

24:33

women. You know, I learned that in prison or,

24:35

or I feel like I should

24:37

be able to do what I tell you

24:39

to do type of, you know, that control stuff that I had

24:41

to work on. So I know that I have a

24:44

lot of negative male characteristics and

24:46

so I'm changing them and

24:48

learning how, how that fits to

24:51

socialize with positive men that are doing positive

24:54

things so that I

24:54

could be, I'm shaping myself

24:57

to be the man that I want to be. How

25:06

does it feel to be a man is, uh, it's

25:09

easy. It's the easy question. It just feels good to be

25:11

able to be me.

25:13

Now, what is being a man mean?

25:16

That's a whole different question. While

25:22

Marcel was in prison, he enrolled in a college

25:24

program. I

25:26

had two guy professors, white

25:28

boys, and they were married

25:31

and they both had kids and stuff. And I remember my

25:33

one professor, he talked about his kids and

25:36

he, um, he said, I'm not

25:38

going to be here on Halloween. You guys,

25:40

I just want to let you guys

25:40

know because you guys are my students and I respect and

25:43

love you guys. He said, but, um, I got

25:45

to take my kids out. And

25:48

I said, you got to take your kids

25:50

out. He was like, yeah, he said, I have

25:53

two children and

25:55

I'm their father. And I think that

25:57

I'm supposed to be there with them to

25:59

go. took a treaty. And I

26:02

said, well why? He said, because

26:04

it's not my wife's responsibility to raise our

26:07

children, it's our responsibility. And that's

26:10

just not the kind of guy. And I

26:12

laughed and I said, that's the kind of guy I want to be.

26:17

Eventually, Marcel became eligible

26:20

to go before the parole board. Where

26:22

he could make a case that he had done the work

26:25

and was ready to get out of prison. And when

26:27

Marcel went before the board, his

26:29

identity as a trans man was part

26:31

of the conversation. There

26:35

was a very big topic in

26:37

the boardroom about me being a transgender. I mean,

26:40

he asked me questions about where you're gonna go to the bathroom.

26:42

Have you thought like all of this stuff. And I answered

26:44

to the best that I could and he said that

26:48

he knew that this is who I was.

26:53

I never forget it. When they tell you that you

26:55

got found suitable, they read like this

26:57

paper. I swear it's a page long. He

27:00

moved the computer and he leaned into

27:02

me and he said, so what I'm saying to

27:04

you is you can go home Mr.

27:07

Marcel Robones. And I looked at

27:09

him and he said, and he

27:13

was like, and you're gonna be a good man.

27:32

We'll be right back after the break.

27:45

A lot goes into each Ear Hustle episode,

27:48

but there's so much more that happens outside

27:50

the episode.

27:51

Yep, and you can read all about it in

27:53

the Low Down, our email newsletter.

27:55

Get bonus material, find out about

27:58

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28:00

for the team, and of course, Erlan, you know

28:02

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28:04

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28:06

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28:11

at EarHustleSQ.com slash

28:13

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28:14

New lowdowns with each new episode.

28:17

EarHustleSQ.com slash newsletter.

28:31

This next bit comes from an EarHustle

28:33

episode we did really early on in the show.

28:36

Erlan, I think it was like season two.

28:37

Yep, it was called Down Low,

28:40

and it was all about the LGBTQ

28:42

community at San Quentin State Prison.

28:48

The

28:48

one transgender woman that pretty much everybody

28:50

in San Quentin knows

28:52

is Jarvis Jovan... Lady

28:54

J. Okay, my bad. I've been checked. I'll

28:57

go back to her, Lady J. Lady

28:59

J. has been in prison for almost 30 years

29:02

and at San Quentin for about five. Yes,

29:05

ma'am. Could you just describe yourself

29:07

for me? Okay, this

29:10

is going to be fun. So, I

29:13

am 5'10 and a half. I

29:16

weigh none of your business. I'm

29:19

very voluptuous. I have boobs

29:22

a go-go. I have backside

29:25

for days. Big thighs, cute

29:27

face. You know, I couldn't

29:29

be more cute if I tried, if I drew my own self.

29:34

Lady

29:34

J. has identified as female since childhood.

29:37

She's 57 years old now and is from

29:39

San Diego. So, you came

29:41

in as a woman.

29:42

Very much so. I was 26, 27 when

29:46

I came in, and I lived on the

29:48

street as a woman. Even my

29:51

court case even talks about how I

29:53

used to walk around the apartment complex and

29:56

do bikini contests with the

29:58

other girls in the neighborhood.

29:59

and the woman that got on the stand said, it was so

30:02

disgusting. Mr.

30:04

Clark would walk around in the bikini and the men

30:06

would, yeah, because I was a bumping chick, don't

30:09

hate, my body was on fleek.

30:11

Or is it fleek? I would say

30:13

fleek. Fleek, it was on fleek. I don't know what that mean,

30:15

but I know it meant my body was all that and a bag

30:17

of chips. So why didn't

30:20

you go to a woman's prison? Why were you putting the men's prison? Well,

30:22

because I still have that

30:25

nasty little peanut, this,

30:28

what is the word I'm looking for? A Audi. Yeah.

30:31

Yeah. So

30:35

before I still have this Audi,

30:38

I'm not allowed to go to a women's prison because I haven't

30:41

fully transitioned. And when I came

30:43

to prison, there was no such thing as

30:45

the state giving you a sex change. When

30:48

I came to prison, it was, you're

30:50

classified as a male,

30:52

you're going to a male's prison, no matter

30:54

what form of LGBTQ you were.

30:56

They went directly by what

30:59

it says on your birth certificate,

31:01

period. Back when we spoke to Lady

31:03

J, that's how it was. Transgender

31:05

women served their sentences in men's prisons.

31:11

I'm gonna do a little history lesson. Okay, so when

31:13

I first came in, it was 1989. And

31:19

the thing for men back

31:21

then is, I

31:23

don't want to say it was almost acceptable, but

31:26

if you got with a transgender,

31:29

it was almost like, okay, you're strong

31:31

enough to handle it. And a lot of guys

31:33

back then were doing it.

31:35

It's okay to have a girl as long

31:37

as she was a girl, not a gay

31:39

boy, but a

31:41

girl. In the 1990s,

31:43

Lady J was serving time in Calipatria,

31:46

a maximum security prison East of San Diego.

31:49

And during that time, she shared a cell with a man

31:51

who was much more than a celly.

31:54

His homeboys felt that it would be

31:56

one hell of a mark to

31:58

see a man who was a man. makeshift wedding.

32:01

So I said, OK, I rode along with it. You know,

32:04

he proposed. After he proposed,

32:06

we decided on a date.

32:08

And in prison, necessity

32:11

is the mother of invention. So

32:15

to make a wedding gown, I

32:17

took a laundry bag. And at that

32:19

time, the laundry bags were blue.

32:21

Before you get there, the laundry bag is see-through.

32:24

The laundry bag is like. Oh, the laundry bag. But you

32:26

have to hit the mesh. Oh, with the mesh ones? The mesh

32:28

laundry bags. Oh, that's what it looked great. Yes, it did.

32:30

I was a lot smaller then, but still

32:33

quite shapely.

32:34

Picture that. It was cute.

32:37

It was really, really cute. So

32:39

I said, OK, I need a veil. So I took

32:41

a white t-shirt, flipped it upside

32:44

down. So the neck became

32:46

like my waistline. And the bottom

32:48

of the t-shirt became

32:50

my veil. It was very chic.

32:53

And my

32:54

celly, wink,

32:57

wink, he put on his

32:59

best blues and his best man

33:02

put on his best blues. We

33:04

walked out and we had

33:06

all of my homeboys from San Diego. They

33:09

were sitting on one side. So they were the guests

33:12

of the bride. His homeboys was

33:14

on the other side. And one

33:16

of his younger homeboys became

33:19

the officiator of the ceremony.

33:21

So what were the vows? Do

33:23

you, Lady J, take this man to be

33:25

your lawfully wedded husband, to honor,

33:28

to love, to cherish, and sickness, and

33:30

in health, share your canteen with him and

33:32

your packages? Uh-huh.

33:35

He's mine. I'm his. I'm his. He's

33:38

mine. We jumped over a broom. So

33:40

that was my wedding.

33:49

A lot has changed since we spoke to Lady J. Yep.

33:52

In 2021, a new law came into

33:54

effect in California that allows transgender,

33:57

non-binary, and intersex people

33:59

to be housed in a in a prison that aligns with their

34:01

gender identity.

34:02

And just recently we met two trans

34:04

women who, thanks to the new law, were

34:07

able to transfer to the California Institution

34:09

for Women, a prison near Los Angeles.

34:13

I was really surprised. I never

34:15

dreamed that it could happen. This

34:18

is Kiara Anderson. But when

34:20

I heard that not only was it possible,

34:22

but that it was going to happen,

34:25

I immediately filed my paperwork. I

34:27

wanted to be the first one on the bus.

34:30

Do you remember when you

34:33

started hearing that the laws were going to change and

34:35

that you could come to a woman's prison if you wanted to?

34:37

I was so pumped. I was so

34:39

pumped. This is Cassidy Porter.

34:42

Did you think it would ever happen? No. I thought

34:45

I was just all smoke and mirrors. No,

34:48

I was absolutely surprised when they finally passed

34:50

it. I mean, the shock of it

34:52

actually taking place and occurring was

34:54

so overwhelming for me that I just

34:56

cried in tears of happiness. My

35:00

cellmates thought I was too emotional, but

35:02

yeah, I was excited.

35:08

So can you tell us about the decision to leave

35:10

a men's prison and come to a woman's prison? It wasn't a

35:12

hard decision. It was a hard

35:15

decision. It was? It was quite a bit of

35:17

thought put into it. I

35:19

can go from one prison to another on the other side and I know what's

35:21

going to happen. I know what the dynamic is. I know what

35:23

the yard feel is going to be. Feel

35:26

is going to be. I can tell when things are going good, when

35:28

things are going bad. I didn't know what that was going to be

35:30

like. But once the decision was made,

35:32

I was committed to it.

35:35

I had two goals. One was to get

35:38

my surgery. That was the primary goal was

35:40

to go through that part of it. And I knew I couldn't do

35:43

that in place else, but here in a woman's

35:45

prison, because I could not be like this

35:47

in a men's prison. It's just far too dangerous.

35:51

I really didn't know what to expect. What

35:53

I was really looking forward to is

35:56

being among women and having

35:58

those role models. not

36:01

being trapped

36:04

in male prison culture, which

36:06

is a hard, cold environment.

36:18

Hi, my name is Michelle Cato, C-A-T-O.

36:21

What pronoun do you use? I consider

36:23

myself a transgender. I identify

36:26

with being male, but however in my

36:28

environment, I don't like to stress

36:30

the pronouns. I just like to be called by

36:32

my name. Michelle. Yes. Or

36:34

Cato. Okay. Okay, which do you prefer? I

36:37

prefer Cato, either or I'm okay

36:39

with, but I prefer Cato because it

36:41

has more of a masculine feel. I

36:43

don't want to change what my mom put, so I go

36:45

by my last name first.

36:48

Cato is also incarcerated at the California

36:50

Institution for Women, and he's sort

36:52

of compact, has these short dreads.

36:55

What really made an impression on me was his face.

36:58

It was really open and sort of

37:00

just invited conversation.

37:06

You just said something that grabbed

37:08

my attention that you don't want to change the name your

37:10

mom gave you. Yes. My name is my

37:12

name, you know? And, you

37:14

know, my mother gave me that name, so

37:17

it's honorable. My name is Michelle

37:19

Cato, and I prefer to be called Cato. But

37:22

I still a sister. I still have

37:24

siblings, you know? I'm still a daughter, but this

37:26

is going to always be my mother, and I'm going to always

37:28

be her daughter.

37:29

I'm learning to mesh both of

37:31

what I have to be who I am. I just

37:33

want to be comfortable in my skin, you know,

37:36

and I'm apologetic about it, you know?

37:42

On paper, under the new

37:45

law, someone like Cato could transfer

37:47

to a men's prison. Yes, but

37:49

so far, not a single trans

37:51

man has done that. Have

37:55

you ever thought about transferring to a male

37:57

prison? Absolutely not. put

38:00

myself in harm's way. He don't take no genes to

38:02

figure that out, whether I got a surgery or not.

38:04

And I don't know of no female

38:06

transgender from female

38:08

to male that wants to really

38:11

be in a male facility. Now

38:13

you hear people that do the talk, but

38:16

I have yet to know one, you

38:19

know? They say it would be okay,

38:21

but I wouldn't put myself in a situation

38:23

like that. You

38:25

know, I'm born female. What do I look

38:27

like going to a men's prison is because my

38:30

arms is bigger or I have this. Whether

38:34

you have the surgery or not, if a man knows

38:36

that you were once a woman, then you're not

38:39

safe, you know? That's

38:41

what you always say. Yeah,

38:44

you're not safe. Yeah. We've

38:47

asked trans men would they

38:50

go to a men's prison.

38:53

Oh, yeah. What's your thoughts there? I

38:57

wouldn't personally. This

38:59

is McCall, another trans man

39:02

incarcerated at CIW. I

39:05

personally don't feel safe. And when

39:07

I say that, it's due to my trauma as a child. I

39:11

don't feel safe around men

39:14

in there. You could be a target,

39:17

you know, for

39:20

being a trans man. So I

39:22

don't want to experience that. So

39:25

for now, McCall and all

39:27

the other trans men we met at the California

39:30

Institution for Women are staying put.

39:33

But you know, Erlon, for McCall at

39:35

least, prison has been a place where

39:37

he's been able to kind of, I

39:39

don't know, sort of find himself.

39:42

So when I was out there, I

39:45

felt like even though I was free and

39:49

even though my family didn't agree

39:51

with them, but they just let me be and they love me no matter

39:53

what. But still, I

39:55

felt myself trapped and people

39:58

were... be not accepting

40:01

of me. They will say

40:03

things underneath their breath. Or

40:06

they'll look at me when I walk in a public restroom

40:09

and be like, what are you doing here? Why

40:11

are you in this restroom?

40:13

You don't belong here. They'll look at

40:15

me like I'm a pedophile. And

40:18

it made me feel so degrading.

40:24

So you are saying that

40:27

in prison you have found freedom to be

40:29

yourself. Isn't that outrageous?

40:31

Yeah, it is. It's

40:33

still crazy. It's crazy.

40:35

Like I tell this to my bunkie. It's so

40:38

crazy that I found freedom

40:40

here. Like a lot of people come here

40:41

and they don't feel free.

40:44

They cry about being in here. They cry.

40:46

They hate it. I

40:48

mean,

40:48

I'm not saying that I love being in prison.

40:51

But one thing I like being in

40:53

prison is that I could be myself. And

40:55

nobody's

40:56

going to judge me or discriminate

40:58

me or tell me that they're not going

41:00

to love me. So

41:02

it's me. I have my freedom. That's all

41:04

I have. So

41:09

for the trans women who are trying

41:12

to move from the men's prison to the women's

41:14

prison, they got to go through a pretty extensive

41:17

process.

41:17

Yes, it's not like you can just say,

41:20

I want to transfer to a woman's prison and

41:22

you're on the next bus out. There's this

41:24

extensive vetting process. And

41:27

it can actually take years to do.

41:29

But still, I think there's

41:32

a real belief that some men would just lie

41:34

and say they're trans so that they

41:36

can come to a women's prison and

41:38

have sex with women. Or just

41:41

because it's a nicer place to be.

41:43

How do you feel about

41:45

transgender women coming to a woman's

41:48

prison? A

41:50

lot of people were scared. The

41:52

ladies was thinking, oh, they're going to

41:55

take it from us and all. There are a lot

41:57

of women here that were abused.

42:00

men so they have that instant

42:03

fear. It's

42:05

awkward, it makes a lot of people uncomfortable,

42:07

you know. You

42:12

see some trans people

42:15

that are here from men's

42:16

prison that are legit

42:19

and you see some that are

42:21

not. I

42:27

think we should unpack that a bit, Arlon. So

42:30

I think what Kato is saying is that

42:32

he thinks some of these trans women are just

42:34

pretending to be trans.

42:36

Under the new law, trans women do not

42:38

need to be taking hormones nor do

42:40

they have to have had any gender confirming surgery

42:43

to apply to transfer to a woman's prison. They

42:46

just have to identify as female.

42:48

And that makes some people at the women's prison

42:50

nervous. Has that caused tension? Yes,

42:54

it causes tension, you know. It causes

42:56

a lot of tension. And like, you know, in the shower, we

42:58

have somebody that's in our unit that's like that.

43:02

And

43:02

nobody likes to be in the shower

43:04

with him, her. It's awkward, it makes

43:06

a lot of people uncomfortable.

43:09

People just rolling their eyes. You know, they don't want

43:11

to be rude, but it's the type of feeling

43:13

that you get because you can see that something

43:16

that was put in place to help people

43:19

that's under that umbrella, nobody

43:21

has found a way to manipulate

43:24

it, to use it to get here.

43:29

So far, 50 trans women have

43:31

been approved to transfer from men's prison

43:33

in California to women's prisons.

43:36

Here's Kieran Cassidy again. You

43:39

know, we were very cautious. We

43:41

didn't want to scare anybody. We didn't want anyone to

43:43

be afraid of us. I was pretty sensitive

43:45

to that. I'm

43:47

not here to hurt anybody. I'm not here

43:50

to sexually exploit anybody. I

43:52

wanted to be, you know, accessible,

43:56

friendly. I didn't want to

43:58

turn anybody off.

43:59

It was a bit of

44:01

trepidation in my coming here, plus

44:03

the things that I had heard about this place, that we

44:05

weren't wanted, that there was a lot

44:07

of angst as far as our presence

44:10

here, and I do get that on occasion. I'll

44:12

have women tell me, fat to my face, that, you

44:15

know, we don't want you here.

44:20

The day we were transferred from

44:22

the men's prison to the women's prison, I

44:24

came with another inmate. It

44:26

was early in the morning. It was a beautiful

44:29

day. We were driving into

44:31

the rising sun. It was pretty inspirational.

44:34

Through the most beautiful parts of California,

44:37

there were vineyards on both

44:39

sides

44:40

for miles. I felt

44:42

pretty optimistic. This day has

44:44

finally come. We

44:46

came to the gate. I started

44:48

seeing the female porters,

44:51

and I said, we're really here.

44:56

I can recall the very first moment I pulled up into

44:58

the reception for women. I was in oranges,

45:01

so I had to strip out, and

45:04

men, they just kind of threw things through the grate. You know,

45:06

here's your shirt, here's your pants, shoes, da, da, da. Women,

45:09

they brought it out in a nice little box. Here's

45:11

my shoes,

45:12

here's your socks, here's your underwear, here's

45:14

your bra, here's your shirt, here's your pants. If

45:17

these sizes don't fit you, just let us know. We'll get

45:19

you some more to fit you. I'm

45:21

kind of like, really? You

45:23

would really do that?

45:28

The greatest thing I've had is this decrease

45:31

in stress that I experience,

45:33

that hyper-awareness that you

45:35

have to have on a men's yard. You don't have

45:38

to have that here. And that just makes

45:40

your sleep better. I mean, I sleep

45:42

through the night now. I really haven't

45:44

experienced that until I came here.

45:47

You know, I like to skip sometimes, because

45:49

you don't skip on a men's prison. I'm

45:51

sure not. Ever. I'm sure not. Ever.

45:55

Yeah.

45:57

I don't have to walk the yard with a buddy. I'm really

45:59

customized. to doing that. I don't have

46:02

to be aware of my surroundings or who's around

46:04

me. I don't feel a threat anywhere

46:06

around here. Even some of the big girls, I

46:08

don't sense as being a threat. In fact, quite

46:10

a few of them are my friends.

46:14

I feel so blessed.

46:18

I'm very grateful to be accepted and

46:21

appreciated here. I have lots of friends.

46:24

People are really nice to me. I just

46:26

had a birthday earlier this week and

46:30

I work in the sewing factory. Everybody

46:34

sang happy birthday to me and they signed my birthday

46:36

card. And so many people told me that

46:38

they love me and they're glad to have

46:40

me here. And I just,

46:43

I'm humbled and grateful to be a part of

46:45

it. And it has really helped me

46:48

with my transition. Here,

46:52

I'm among women and

46:55

that really helps me with my

46:57

gender expression because I need

47:00

role models.

47:00

Here's

47:03

Simon.

47:16

Now, who are you? I'm

47:20

a former inmate.

47:22

I went from an

47:24

inmate to an employee in Reverdallion. Seven

47:27

years since I started. Okay,

47:29

this last bit of audio comes from

47:31

an episode where our ear hustle team

47:34

actually got to go on the road.

47:36

Yep, we were in Norway learning

47:38

about what prison life is like over there. And

47:41

one of the guys we met, a formerly incarcerated

47:43

man named Simon, told us a story

47:46

about a pretty remarkable thing that happened

47:48

at a prison there. What's the t-shirt

47:50

that you're

47:51

wearing? So it just says pride in some small

47:53

letters over there. Right, so it says pride in the colors

47:56

and it's on top of the radio. This

47:58

one was made especially for

47:59

for our first In-Prison

48:02

Pride Parade anywhere in the world. True

48:05

pioneering. We had it the 15th of

48:07

October last year. We

48:09

declared the second Friday of October as

48:11

International Prison Pride Day. In

48:14

Norway, we come a long way. 50 years

48:16

ago, it stopped being against the

48:19

law. Zero

48:19

out of LGBT

48:22

phobia in prisons in

48:24

Norway.

48:24

Prison is probably one

48:28

of the places where

48:30

it's the hardest to be

48:32

gay or trisexual. And it's

48:35

a hyper-massifly environment. And

48:37

for me, as a hugger, you

48:40

can't hug people because that's gay. First

48:42

of all, there's nothing wrong with being gay. Then

48:45

why can't you give people a hug? We

48:48

have inmates. Only because of their

48:50

sexuality, they have been beaten.

48:53

They have been threatened. They

48:55

have been told by staff that you shouldn't

48:57

come out of your cell because people will beat you up.

49:00

Yeah. We

49:06

knew about one inmate. So we thought maybe

49:08

one or two. And there were 13 inmates. 13 people

49:12

doesn't sound like much. But when the first

49:14

Pride Parade started in Oslo, it was also

49:16

only like 20 people.

49:21

My master's stroke in there was

49:23

that there's a band in Oslo. They're

49:25

a really big brass band. They're

49:28

very cool. I booked them. And there were

49:30

like 17 musicians

49:32

walking in the parade. There's 13 inmates

49:35

and, of course, some employees

49:37

within their uniforms. And yeah.

49:40

And were people dancing? People were dancing.

49:42

They had a concert afterwards where people

49:44

in uniforms and the inmates were dancing together.

49:47

So it was good. People who worked there and

49:49

people who were incarcerated were dancing together?

49:50

Yeah. And nothing went wrong.

49:53

Nothing went wrong.

50:00

Why do you personally care? I mean, there's so many things

50:02

you could work on to change in the prison Why did you

50:04

care to spearhead this? I

50:07

had a friend who killed himself. He

50:10

was a very effeminate

50:13

gay guy he was in prison and I'm

50:16

sure that he got harassed because

50:19

he just was his beautiful self

50:22

so that's the personal personal

50:25

thing and Yeah, did

50:27

you think a lot about him when you were working on

50:29

this? I dedicated

50:32

my work to him kind of So

50:36

yeah, he was a very fun

50:39

person It's always

50:41

strange when people have so much life

50:44

Pass away, so I

50:46

think about him sometimes and I hope

50:49

yeah, I'm not religious I don't think

50:51

he's looking down from me from some

50:53

cloud, but yeah, I

50:56

hope he got his peace I

51:00

got you guys. Are you ok?

51:08

That was fun nudge. I think we should

51:10

do this again sometime definitely

51:12

and meanwhile Happy

51:15

Pride everyone Thanks for joining us.

51:17

I'm Nigel poor and

51:18

I'm Erlang Woods We'll be back

51:20

with the first episode of season 12 on

51:23

September 6th

51:34

And that's the

51:37

first Rise of Hope