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what we think we know. Wherever

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you get your podcasts. You're

0:36

the youngest Sadiq I've met. I'm

0:38

the number one Sadiq. I'm the

0:40

only Sadiq. You're not the only.

0:42

He's my only Sadiq. See? Oh

0:44

my goodness. Are

0:47

you the special Sadiq? That's

0:53

inside producer Sadiq on the mic. And

0:55

he was in the studio to tell

0:57

us about a gentle dispute he has

0:59

with his neighbor Carrington. Yeah,

1:01

Sadiq and Carrington live in Donner. It's

1:04

what's known as the honor dorm

1:06

at San Quentin because it's where

1:08

people live who are, you know, living

1:11

within the rules of prison. They're doing

1:13

the right thing. They're running a program.

1:16

That's where they live. Yeah, I mean, that's why we

1:18

call them Donner darlings. Donner darlings. Donner

1:21

isn't a particularly nice building or anything.

1:23

But if you live there, there are

1:25

some benefits. And one of them is

1:27

that you get single cell status, your

1:30

own cell. And that's a big

1:32

deal, right? That's a hell of a deal. So

1:35

this dispute had to do with

1:37

an allegation that Sadiq was making

1:40

about his neighbor Carrington and how

1:42

Carrington takes care of his cell.

1:44

Yes. But before we get to that,

1:46

I had to ask Carrington about the

1:48

name Carrington. I mean, it's kind of

1:50

unusual. Well, it's like he cares. Oh,

1:53

he's a Carrington. He's a Carrington. So

1:58

when I heard your name... I was expecting

2:01

like a way older gentleman

2:03

with a great beard and

2:07

like very studious. Do

2:09

people expect that when they hear your name? When I was

2:11

little in elementary school and I would introduce myself, people would

2:13

say, what a distinguished name. I had no idea what they

2:15

were talking about in the third grade. Like what does that

2:17

mean about my name? He is like the first Carrington I

2:19

ever met. I never met a Carrington. And

2:21

he do have like an old person name to me. I

2:25

never met nobody young named Carrington. They all had

2:27

to be young at some point. Yeah. You're

2:30

right about that. Is it a

2:33

family name? So no, actually my

2:36

maternal grandmother actually

2:38

went to college with a guy named Carrington. And

2:42

so he was really smart, successful.

2:45

And my mom was going to make me a junior. It was

2:47

going to name me after my father. But

2:49

my grandmother suggested it and she went with

2:51

it. She named me Carrington and then gave

2:53

me my little name after my

2:55

great grandfather Lloyd and then my dad's

2:58

last name, Riselle. So say your whole

3:00

name. Carrington Lloyd Riselle. What

3:03

I really want to talk to you about is your order. Here we

3:05

go. He liked to order

3:07

a lot of stuff. I have not the order. And

3:10

here is the heart of this

3:12

gentle dispute. I'm

3:16

pretty sure you are though because you have a lot of

3:18

stuff in there that, you know, kind of like, like the

3:20

two hot pots. Like why you have more than one hot

3:22

pot? I just got a second hot pot. But

3:25

you know, you could have just gave it to somebody. You'd rather just

3:27

keep it. No, I'm waiting to get fixed. I'm going to pass it

3:30

on. Now I am keeping it in two fans. So you have more

3:32

than one fan? You can't keep it in one fan. You can't keep

3:34

it in one fan. You can't keep it in one fan. More than

3:36

one everything really. To a

3:38

certain extent. See, I got a hoard of tendencies. I'm

3:40

not a complete hoarder. I'm

3:42

like hoarder adjacent. Right, right, right. You

3:46

know, but I do keep a lot of stuff. But

3:48

I do. So in all honesty, I

3:50

do have a hoard of tendencies. I think I get that from

3:52

my grandma because we used to make fun of her. And

3:55

we would try to go clean out like the garage. And

3:57

we try to throw stuff away from the newspaper for Mike

3:59

Knight. 1956 is like grandma we get that you

4:01

know, I say that because there's an article in it

4:03

But then go through it take out the article it

4:06

throw away the paper so I think that

4:08

kind of rubbed off on me a little bit but also

4:11

Starting on a higher levels where it's hard to get stuff

4:14

By you come up on a paperclip by you keeping that

4:16

paperclip. You don't know when you're gonna need it. Yeah, right

4:24

In the last episode Listeners may remember

4:26

that we talked to Greg Estridge about

4:28

all the stuff in his cell and

4:30

how over time it changed and this

4:32

got the whole team thinking How

4:40

much stuff do we need to feel I'm

4:47

Nigel poor and I'm Erlon woods

4:50

and this is ear hustle from PR

4:52

axis radio I

4:58

Don't think I have to have been a moto Okay

5:05

Slowly see and I probably can get that wind up radio

5:07

away, but a wind up radio.

5:09

Well, I was Why

5:12

did I get that dinosaurs? Why did I

5:14

get that? I don't remember Of

5:16

course, you don't remember cuz you're a hoarder. So what

5:18

is this good stuff just to get it? They don't

5:20

really care how they got it what they getting it

5:23

for They just want to have it

5:25

and say they got it Oh, no, that's why I got

5:27

it I got it to see if I can get the

5:29

games in with better reception because the other little radio I

5:31

have Right, right we're

5:33

getting somewhere right in my mind a

5:36

hoarder is the one who likes to

5:38

keep stuff just to have it Don't

5:40

you feel like boxed in when you have all this

5:42

stuff in there? No, all these books and stuff is

5:44

just like boxed in No, no, I

5:47

don't feel boxed in The

5:49

shoe box I showed you earlier. Mm-hmm. That's like that's

5:51

like the junk drawer. Everybody has a kitchen You

5:54

know, you open it up. You just got a whole business. You never

5:56

know you go if you don't need a night difference

6:00

between being prepared and being a hoarder. So

6:03

prepared is like having one extra I

6:05

believe just in case minus on

6:08

a verge of breaking down or something. Not

6:10

having two or three. Not having

6:12

two or three headphones just to have them

6:14

plus having one that's already broken. Did

6:17

you have some negative hoarder experience in your life

6:20

because you're pretty intense about this? I

6:23

have, I have, I have sillies that uh like to

6:25

keep a lot of stuff you know uh that might

6:27

have something to do with a little bit while I'm

6:29

searching out these hoarders you know. But you said it

6:32

makes you feel boxed in and he

6:34

suggested it makes him feel more comfortable.

6:37

So just wondering like what about it makes you

6:39

feel boxed in and did you feel this way

6:41

before prison? Oh that

6:43

was awesome question. Uh

6:48

so before prison though I don't think I

6:50

was ever boxed in because I can always

6:52

leave. But feeling boxed in

6:54

meaning that you have all these books

6:56

and shelves and storage bins

6:58

and all the stuff is just around you

7:01

and it's like you don't have no space to move around in

7:03

the cell. The cell is already small you can't stretch out both

7:05

of your arms in the cell. So yeah

7:08

I feel like why would you want to box yourself

7:11

in even more in a small cell? So

7:13

I don't feel boxed in. I like

7:15

my shelves. I feel like I have creatively

7:17

utilized this small space to you know space

7:20

my stuff out and organize it how I

7:22

see fit. Um yeah

7:25

I don't feel boxed in. I don't feel restricted. I

7:27

don't feel claustrophobic. See I think he I think he

7:29

would look at my cell and feel claustrophobic but when

7:31

I walk in I'm fine. So

7:43

Nigel what do you expect to find when we get over

7:45

there? Okay well I'm so curious. The

7:48

way that Sadiq goes stairs I

7:50

hate those damn stairs. Okay the

7:52

way Sadiq goes. Okay so clearly we

7:54

had to settle this. Was Carrington a

7:56

hoarder? Or was

7:58

he just you know? Prepared. So

8:01

a few of us, this was

8:03

me, Sadiq and Carrington, outside editor

8:05

Amy and inside producer Tony DeTrinidad

8:07

headed over to Donner to see

8:10

for ourselves. I

8:12

feel like Carrington, I have

8:14

a feeling I'm more like Carrington and I'm

8:16

going to relate more to his

8:19

space. Do you think Carrington's not right there

8:21

trying to clean up with Zach before we get there? I

8:23

think he's an honest sort. So

8:25

I'd like to say no, that he's

8:27

not. Because I heard him mention that there was a dusty

8:30

floor and he wasn't going to clean it up. So

8:32

we'll see. I'm going to drop

8:34

this phone on our phone. I

8:37

didn't do this. Um, I'm going

8:39

to tell you you have a little bit of

8:41

time here because we have another one we have

8:43

in here recording. First we checked

8:46

in at the station where the CO's are

8:48

and then we made our way to the

8:50

row of cells where Sadiq and Carrington live.

8:52

We started with Sadiq's there. Are

8:56

we allowed to go over the

8:58

threshold? Of course. Do you have to invite us in?

9:00

Yeah sure you're all invited. Go ahead, check it out.

9:02

That's my door. It

9:05

looks like I got a few things on the door. Wow.

9:07

It's so dark. I'm afraid

9:09

to go in there. Okay. Give

9:12

me a second. This didn't look so dorky. It's so

9:14

welcoming. So

9:17

when you look into Sadiq's cell, the

9:19

back wall is painted like, um, like

9:22

I'm not like

9:24

a castle, the outside of a castle.

9:26

So it's so dark. Big gray bricks.

9:29

Okay. When you first walk in this, in the cell, I

9:32

have two shelves. I have

9:34

a shelf with my pens.

9:37

I have a shelf with my TV. I

9:40

have my bunk that has my radar sign on

9:42

it. I have

9:44

my, uh, Sadiq's room was

9:47

very tidy, kind of dark. And I mean,

9:49

he's right. He doesn't have a ton of

9:51

stuff, but I don't

9:53

know. I want, it's a little cold. It

9:55

doesn't say like, come on in and relax. Yeah.

9:58

You know, Sadiq got to work. on that room, you

10:00

know, he got a homie that plays

10:03

up a little bit. Oh, I like that description.

10:05

Definitely. So after we saw

10:07

Sadiq, it was now time to see

10:09

Carrington's cell. Wow. Okay,

10:11

now, and Carrington, this is yours? I

10:14

don't see any dust. Okay,

10:16

I'm gonna say. Carrington's

10:20

cell sparkles. It's like this

10:22

got nice bright color, like

10:24

it's white. It

10:27

looks inviting. Okay, can

10:29

you give us a tour? Okay, so when you first

10:31

come in, obviously I got two shelves right there at

10:33

the front of the gate, have all

10:35

the books I use on the regular, and then

10:37

a top just to keep them out the way

10:40

and organize commentaries and Bible that I was telling

10:42

you about. A nice little shelf that holds my

10:44

TV. Tablet holder. Ooh, man, he

10:46

had a lot of books. And I think

10:48

Tony asked him to count them. So one,

10:50

two, three. That's an empty

10:53

journal. Four, five, six, seven, eight,

10:56

nine, ten, eleven, twelve. Thirteen,

10:58

fourteen, fifteen, fifteen, fifteen, eighteen,

11:00

fourteen, eighteen, fourteen, fifteen, So,

11:07

sure, Carrington had a lot of stuff. But I'd never

11:09

have called him a hoarder. I mean, everything was so

11:11

organized. Some dudes look like hoarders, you know, but really

11:14

they're just well prepared, really good

11:21

at being in prison, you know, ready

11:24

for anything. So yeah. They

11:27

had the luxury of BritneyGSZ reporter, they felt

11:29

techniques trying to figure out Carrington

12:02

or Siddique? I would live at Carrington's if I had

12:04

a choice. Siddique? Amy,

12:07

if you had a pick? I would live in Carrington's. Nigel?

12:11

Carrington. Siddique,

12:13

if you had a choice, what would you

12:15

pick? I'm picking my horse. Okay. I'm

12:18

sorry, Siddique. Just feeling a

12:30

little anxiety now. You

12:33

do? Uh-oh. Okay. I

12:35

don't know what's happening right now, so I'm a little

12:37

anxious. Wait, how long have you known

12:39

you? Like

12:43

since 2000? I see. So

12:46

the photography class was, yeah,

12:48

that was 13. So

12:50

I've known you 10 years. So I've known you as a photography

12:54

enthusiast. I've known you

12:56

as an artist and as

12:58

someone we've interviewed. You've been

13:01

in a few stories. Yeah. You're a damn good

13:03

storyteller. I try. So

13:06

we've been working on this story

13:09

about objects and I

13:11

think you probably know I have a big

13:14

affinity for objects. Objects. And the meaning of

13:16

objects and when you're in prison, what has

13:18

meaning to you and what you can let

13:20

go of. So, Erlon, any critique on how

13:22

I sound there? Well,

13:26

I mean, you know, I think

13:28

you just tread lightly. Thank

13:30

you. I was trying to tread lightly because

13:33

I'm so used to Mesro being kind

13:35

of present and like

13:37

excited and super open to talk about stuff.

13:39

And he was really closed

13:42

off. I'm going to say

13:44

there was like a dark cloud in

13:46

the room. So I was wondering if I could

13:48

talk to you about your space and

13:50

what it's like. In

13:53

what context? Just like, are you a minimalist? Do

13:56

you have a lot of things? Is it

13:58

an artistic space? Is it

14:00

a quiet space? Is it a chaotic space?

14:04

Yes Yes

14:07

Yes to what? All of that So

14:14

the reason he came down to do the

14:17

interview is that the guys inside have been

14:19

playfully kind of talking and joking

14:21

around about being hoarders and

14:24

who at San Quentin might have a reputation for

14:26

being a hoarder and and the

14:29

name came up it was Mezro and

14:31

I Don't

14:33

think Mezro took to that very well. He didn't

14:35

like that Mm-hmm, and

14:38

he definitely didn't like it when I asked if we could

14:40

go see it. So This

14:44

is what I was hoping to do that you would describe

14:47

what it looks like and then we would

14:49

go visit it with a

14:51

recorder, oh I'm

14:54

gonna go ahead and say no to that. Okay

14:58

Can I ask a point? Well

15:01

because the things that I keep are precious

15:03

to me and I don't want them Associated

15:05

with like hoarder culture and stuff like that

15:07

Right because that's the way it was explained

15:09

to me before and I'm

15:12

pretty firm on that. Yeah

15:14

hoarder well because you

15:16

know it is it is it is

15:18

a known thing that I have a lot of stuff

15:20

for myself, but And

15:23

so if I could was explained to me like

15:25

this was supposed to be a thing about Objects

15:28

and hoarders and I don't really like that. What

15:30

is what does hoarder mean to you? It

15:33

just means someone who can't let go of things What

15:36

if it means somebody who? Likes

15:39

to archive things and keep them because

15:41

they're important Yeah, see

15:43

that's the thing like you and I probably look

15:46

at it that way But most people

15:48

don't and I won't have my keepsakes Respected

15:51

I tell you It's

15:54

interesting outside to meet people seem

15:56

obsessed with like streamlining their lives

15:58

and only having exactly what

16:00

they need. It's like this

16:02

real movement. And I don't

16:05

know if it makes people feel better, makes them

16:07

feel like they have control, but they're

16:09

like, there's a whole industry based on trying to get

16:11

people to streamline what they own. And

16:16

how do you react to that? I

16:19

can see living a

16:22

very minimalist life if you

16:25

are either like in an unpredictable,

16:27

nomadic kind of lifestyle, right?

16:29

If you're moving around a lot, like when

16:31

I was in house, my

16:34

worldly possessions fit in the backpack. But

16:36

if you're somewhere settled and maybe

16:39

raising a family and stuff like,

16:41

I don't see the appeal there,

16:43

right? Things

16:47

are important. There's a

16:50

history, things have stories, right?

16:55

Old Mesmerals thawing out. Yeah, so

16:58

the mood had really shifted. And

17:00

I think it was because Mesmero and I were

17:02

talking about something that we both understand, which

17:05

is the inner meaning of objects. And

17:07

we really connect on that level.

17:10

And so- So y'all talked about

17:12

which I both hoard. You

17:15

want to hold on to that. I'm glad you were not at the interview.

17:18

Yeah, hoard or see value in.

17:20

Okay. So

17:24

it seems just to kind of wrap up the

17:26

things that you surround yourself with, the objects

17:28

that are there, have more

17:31

emotional and intellectual resonance for you.

17:33

They're not about just having, I

17:37

think. Whereas some people like have like

17:40

20 pairs of shoes because they just

17:42

want to, they want to- I got

17:44

two feet. What do I need 20

17:46

pairs of shoes for? Right, so for

17:48

you it's not about accumulation. You know,

17:51

see I'm a recovering claustrophobic too. So like for

17:53

me, it's also like a mental health thing to

17:55

make sure that I have something to occupy my

17:57

brain in case I have to. Because I-

18:00

I've been down for a while.

18:02

I remember those race-based lockdowns. I remember

18:04

being locked in the cell for years

18:06

at a time. So,

18:10

being able to like, oh, I can crack

18:12

a book. Oh, I can sit down and write.

18:14

I can do some drawing. You know what

18:16

I mean? I can read letters. My letters are

18:18

my kintsugi, right? When I'm falling apart, I

18:20

read my letters. And I

18:22

make hope lacquer with them, you know what I'm

18:24

saying? To pick my pieces up. So

18:28

that stuff is important to me. And being

18:30

able to do that is more important to

18:32

me than having like two or five gallon

18:34

tubs full of soups, right? So

18:37

you want to make sure your mind can

18:39

always be full. Yeah. So

18:44

he always has his stuff to keep his mind

18:46

full. I mean, clearly his cell has all of

18:48

the things that he needs. But

18:50

Erlon, it's not just in his cell. Misro

18:52

always has these objects with him. And when

18:55

he's on the yard or you see him

18:57

in another building, he always, always

18:59

has things with him. I

19:02

mean, that's what I remember, the laundry bag. You

19:04

know what I'm saying? So he always kept a

19:08

deck of cards with him. Exactly.

19:11

And when I asked him about that for the

19:13

interview, I realized there was something else he carries.

19:16

This little kind of velvet drawstring

19:18

bag. It's like a magic bag

19:20

full of treasures. So

19:24

right now you're carrying your dice with you? Yeah. Can

19:27

I see him? I

19:30

carry my dice around because never

19:33

knowing somebody needs to feel the wrath,

19:35

right? They might want a game or

19:37

something. I got a couple of weird

19:39

little tiles in there. Can we count them? Yeah.

19:44

You know, I impulses when I see these. I

19:47

want a catalog. I put all the like ones

19:49

together. By all means. By

19:51

all means. Can I touch them? Yeah, you can.

19:53

Okay, so these are the more traditional ones. Okay,

20:01

and then we've got tiles. Yeah,

20:08

I like to put like... Okay,

20:10

Erlon, I kind of wish you had been there. We were

20:12

having so much fun. It was like all of a

20:14

sudden we were two little kids just playing with

20:17

our trinkets. Little voices.

20:19

I mean, it was really

20:21

jolly. Marilyn Monroe. I got

20:23

Bumblebee, Dropkick, I think

20:25

Scatterstar is a little somewhere, Wally. Who

20:27

did you into as fantasy were, huh?

20:30

This guy I found in a popular science magazine.

20:32

I just thought that was pretty cool. He's all

20:34

colorful and screaming. They're beautiful. Alright, and then we've

20:36

got... Okay, I'm just gonna get them in order

20:38

and then we can talk about them. And then

20:41

we've got numbers. Oh,

20:48

that's a space creature. Yeah, that's Wally. Wally.

20:53

If I ever found this on the ground with all these

20:55

in it, I'd be like Treasure Trove. Yeah. Don't

20:58

you think? It's a bag of assorted gems.

21:00

Yeah, they all are like gems and I'd like that they

21:02

make different sounds. Who

21:12

knew we were gonna end up really talking about dice?

21:15

Yeah. I love it. And

21:17

I have to say, I want to

21:19

protect this guy. It's a little hard to... Yeah, right? Like

21:21

nothing should ever happen to him. That's my guy. Plus

21:29

you could play with him too. Like you

21:31

could build little houses and stuff. Yeah. You

21:34

know, what we were talking about became clear to me is that

21:36

these objects really make him feel safe. You

21:40

know? What is it? His

21:42

superpower? I think it's like a security

21:44

blanket. Sometimes when I'm feeling

21:46

anxious and gotta feel like texture stuff, like I'll

21:49

bless out the dice and start rolling them. Which

21:51

one's best for that? Usually

21:54

the ones that have like good corners. It's

21:57

also so different. Like that one you

21:59

can tell is late. and delicate as opposed

22:01

to just the sound when you drop it

22:03

is so different. Yeah, it's a little bit

22:06

more substantial. This guy, this is a

22:08

Bronx bomber, he's the biggest d20. He

22:12

could totally knock all those over. Yeah, he's the

22:14

giant Indiana Jones Boulder.

22:18

I got

22:20

Stephen Hawking, I like to use him for villains.

22:24

You'll never escape my clutches,

22:26

right? Okay,

22:28

so this is how I'd like to think of

22:30

your mind. Yeah, my imagination is my favorite toy.

22:32

Yeah. I play

22:35

with it every day. Okay, if you had to just

22:37

take one of these to keep

22:39

with you forever, what

22:41

would it be? Probably be this one. That one?

22:43

Why? This is the Brooklyn Dodger,

22:45

this is my d20. The

22:48

d20 is a 20 sided die

22:50

used by gamers. I totally wrote

22:52

a poem about this guy, the d20 is the

22:54

Brooklyn Dodger and if

22:56

I could take one it'd probably be this guy. Would

22:59

you be willing to share that? Do I

23:02

have it with me? Check

23:12

my astrogation logs. I

23:14

spend most of my days in the dark parked

23:17

next to numerous more. I'm

23:21

gonna say we have old until others

23:24

are full pop blue like me. Listeners

23:27

may remember that Mesro is a

23:29

cool lyricist. Yeah, and he

23:31

and our inside sound designer Rasheed

23:34

took that poem And

23:36

they flipped it to some hip-hop.

24:00

There. Are

24:04

here to open up costly. Brian

24:08

Nice. Fit

24:10

the number to bird or

24:13

wanna bring people together After

24:15

defined role play and of

24:18

problem left out into the

24:20

weather's lovely in the play

24:22

whole past. Month

24:25

to rafa or couldn't answer. I

24:30

misread the rafa and I approve this message.

24:36

Fat grams. Or

24:39

L. Miller loud as the man's Well, I

24:41

remember. Yet he just needs somebody give

24:43

his arm sex Eleanor's. That some bad

24:45

for more nefarious dealings with that

24:48

later. the gonna take a celebrity.

24:51

Get these little right back. Of

24:55

bag of assorted gifts. He

25:24

a serious a tire issues. Do

25:34

anything. Allow

25:37

bag You And I took a field

25:40

trip to visit a guy named Eric

25:42

who lives in San Francisco, Serbia. You

25:44

set a precedent that. Eric

25:47

is a close friend. Of one of our

25:50

inside producers Tony to Trinidad. Of

25:53

you know whom are not are

25:55

on earth. Know

25:57

aired knows Tony from bag before he went

25:59

to. Yeah, Tony calls in

26:01

his uncle even though they're not related. He's

26:03

always kind of looked out for Tony And

26:06

when Tony got arrested it was Eric who went

26:08

to Tony's apartment and packed up all this stuff

26:10

for him Yeah, I mean he was really

26:12

lucky Orlon if you don't have someone to do

26:15

that for you that's looking out. I mean what

26:17

can happen to all your stuff? Oh,

26:19

everything goes everywhere, you know, cuz

26:21

people feel that you ain't

26:23

gonna be using this It's just like a free-for-all

26:25

free fall, but your stuff. Yeah, but you

26:28

got bigger fish to fry So

26:30

in Tony's case though He had Eric and

26:33

Eric came over and did this very

26:35

intimate work of like packing up all

26:37

of Tony's stuff You know not knowing

26:39

what was important or what was kind

26:41

of extra. He just grabbed everything

26:44

But now I think they're both feeling like it's

26:46

time to let some of this stuff go So

26:49

they've been doing these video calls where Tony calls

26:51

from prison and the two of them go through

26:53

the boxes together To decide what

26:55

Eric can throw out and what he should

26:57

hang on to so that's what we come

26:59

to see Okay, so we're at Eric's

27:02

house and we're sitting in front of two boxes

27:05

One's pretty big like maybe two feet

27:07

by three feet. Maybe Do

27:10

one I'm say what I'm says

27:12

Tony's mainly shoes Okay,

27:16

so we're gonna see if it's mainly shoes I'm really

27:18

curious what's in them the boxes. Oh, it's

27:20

taped up So it looks like

27:22

it hasn't been opened. So we're here with Eric and

27:24

we're waiting for Tony to call us on video

27:27

call So right

27:29

now we're in Alpine and right

27:31

at the bottom of the stairs is these kiosks on

27:34

the wall numbered one

27:36

through six and I'm picking number three

27:39

and they're like these little grave shelves

27:41

for your tablet Stop

27:45

saying a connection error. No, it's waiting for

27:47

the other side to join the call. So

27:50

it's a waiting game This

27:55

is prison always waiting I'm telling

27:57

this is good more than others

28:02

They're ghost, hey, it's a

28:04

miracle. And it kicks me off

28:06

right away. He's a pussy.

28:08

He's been waiting for you to connect on

28:11

the phone. We

28:13

can see Tony, but he's out of focus. Okay,

28:16

but now he knows to come closer. Is he

28:19

moving? No, not yet. It

28:22

was a great plan. But, acknowledge

28:24

him. It was a motherfucker. It

28:27

was not cooperating with us at all that day. Not

28:29

at all. So what happened is something

28:31

the same thing that happened on Christmas with my family.

28:33

Whereas it finally gets through the connection, and it

28:36

kicks me off right away as soon as the video pops up. And

28:38

my Wi-Fi bars will go down to an X and I

28:40

have to restart my tablet just to get it again. So

28:43

we could try it again, but it's just going to do that

28:45

a few more times. It's like the worst

28:47

thing I could have had. And

28:50

it lets me see his face for half a second

28:52

just to know that it was possible. But

28:54

it's choosing not to let me do it right now. When

28:58

it does that glitch, it won't work until the next

29:00

day. So, oh

29:02

there it goes. Here they go. And

29:06

hopefully it connects. I hear them. Hey! And

29:08

it did it again. So

29:16

eventually we gave up on

29:18

the video and switched to

29:21

the phone. Hey

29:27

man, fix your headphones man. Can

29:30

you hear me? Yes, finally.

29:34

Hey Tony. Hey, what's up? So

29:38

Tony, there's two boxes here. A

29:40

big one and a little one. Which one should we open? Let's do the

29:44

little one. Okay. Alright, let's start.

29:47

Okay, so Eric's opening it. It's kind of

29:49

heavy. Oh boy. Okay. Oh

29:51

wow. Okay. So do you want me

29:53

to describe what's in here? Yeah. I'm ready. So

29:58

you've got some earbuds in here, but they're all in here. sticky

30:00

because they're old. It

30:02

looks like it went to the old iPhones where

30:05

you can plug it in with a jack. Let's

30:07

just say I'm gonna have to wash my hands after touching these

30:09

because they're super sticky. I'm

30:12

guessing I know what tile that goes in. You've

30:14

got a little change purse

30:17

that's probably three by four inches

30:19

with a black zipper on it.

30:21

It's kind of like quilted material.

30:25

What's on it? It's

30:28

black. No, there's no

30:30

symbols. It's like a quilt. It's black and

30:33

like paisley. It's a paisley pattern. Does

30:38

it smell like weed? One second. Negative.

30:41

It has a neutral scent. Basically

30:44

three things. I'll either keep it, get

30:46

rid of it, or I don't know. I don't

30:48

know. Okay. Okay,

30:51

so the reason we wanted to do this was because Tony

30:54

had all of these boxes that represented his life

30:56

kind of like 10 years ago when he was

30:58

a different Tony. It's like the new Tony

31:01

is deciding which parts of the old Tony he wanted

31:03

to hang on to. Exactly. Like what

31:05

old part of Tony to pull forward with him

31:07

and what part he could just say goodbye to. So

31:09

it was kind of like a time

31:12

capsule in a way. I gotta say though, when

31:14

I was looking at it all, I

31:17

was just like, yeah, he can pretty much get

31:20

rid of all this shit. It's

31:23

out of date. It's useless. It's just

31:26

taking up space. I'm pretty much

31:28

with you on this. But then

31:30

I also feel like, man, all of this stuff is

31:32

meaning to him that there's no way we are gonna

31:34

see. You know what I mean? So

31:37

of course, he's got to make the decisions.

31:39

But yeah, if it were up to me, I think

31:41

I'd been the whole thing. A wallet.

31:44

Oh, any money? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay,

31:47

wait a minute. I take it back.

31:49

There actually were a couple of clearly

31:51

important and interesting things in those boxes. Oh

31:54

my goodness. Okay. Wait, wait, wait. Is that my wallet

31:57

that I've been looking for forever? Did it say

31:59

it's... and inside it has a

32:01

sticker that says clean and sober. And

32:04

sober. Tony, you've got three library cards in here. Library

32:10

must have been important to you. Oh

32:12

my goodness, I'm looking at your driver's license. You

32:15

look just the same. I

32:18

would say this is a keeper. There's so many

32:20

interesting things in here. Yeah, like memories. Yeah,

32:22

keep my wallet for sure. Hold on.

32:25

There's a postcard that says, hey baby. I'm

32:27

giving you so freaking much. That's

32:31

an old one. That's

32:34

from Rachel. You

32:38

probably want to keep that. Yeah.

32:41

There's a little envelope

32:44

that says Tony's earring. This

32:47

is part of the property that when

32:49

you got arrested. Earrings? Yes. Wow,

32:52

I haven't... She's going in it right now. Yeah, keep

32:54

it. Let's see. She's going

32:56

in it, but they all stuck at the bottom. Huh.

33:03

Okay. So, oh, I

33:05

see. It's

33:08

a diamond stud that's

33:10

been stuck onto some kind

33:13

of black rubber just so it doesn't get

33:15

lost. So let's keep that, right? Oh,

33:18

yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's

33:20

interesting, the envelope says,

33:22

has your name and your

33:25

date of birth. Yeah, it

33:27

definitely looks like a police thing. Oh,

33:29

no, it says, yeah. Arrested

33:31

information. Arrested information. Wow. So

33:35

in there, there was this evidence

33:38

envelope. Yeah, okay. I'd

33:40

never seen one of those before. Will you

33:42

describe it? Yeah, it's like when you go

33:44

to jail and you have certain things on

33:46

like rings, watches earrings, they put it in

33:48

this bag. So in here, he had like

33:52

a cubic zirconian stud for

33:54

his ear. And I think on that envelope,

33:57

it says like evidence or something? Yeah, it has right

33:59

across the top. everything. They'll put your money

34:01

in there, they'll put your wallet in there, they'll put all

34:04

the stuff in there, they'll put a knife

34:07

in there if it was, you know, used or

34:09

something that is different evidence. Do you

34:11

think that was a real diamond? No,

34:14

I don't think it was a real diamond

34:16

because that would have been probably so

34:19

long ago for a lawyer or,

34:22

you know, money on the books, not just sitting in

34:24

the suitcase somewhere in the cut. There's

34:30

a bag in here but let's get to the bottom.

34:32

Two bags. Okay, there are definitely a lot of

34:34

shoes in here as the box said. So

34:36

we've got a pair of, god his feet

34:38

are really this big? Come

34:41

on, what's, they're like 14.

34:43

Wow. He's got a pair of high

34:45

top black nineties with red switches

34:48

on it. Here's another pair of shoes. Oh

34:50

these are nice. These are Azzita's. Is that

34:52

a baseball bag? With black fur in

34:55

there on them and they're like,

34:57

made out of this kind of material that makes

34:59

that kind of noise. The audio will explain what

35:01

it's made out of. He's got

35:04

like, oh and I bet

35:06

it goes on this. There

35:12

was a lot more stuff in those boxes but

35:14

Tony couldn't stick around. You know,

35:16

we had spent so long trying to connect on

35:18

the video to where Tony strictly just ran out

35:20

of time. Yes, and he told

35:22

us it was okay to keep going through his stuff which maybe

35:25

some people would have thought was uncomfortable. But

35:27

I thought it was actually really cool because it felt like

35:29

we were getting to know him in this new, I

35:32

don't know, deeper, more personal way. Okay,

35:40

he's got The

35:42

Ships of Earth by Orson Scott

35:44

Card. Oh he's into Orson Scott

35:47

Card. The Memory of

35:49

Earth, Children of

35:51

the Earth, Call of

35:53

the Earth, and

35:56

Earth Fall all by Orson Scott Card.

35:58

So he's definitely into it. fantasy

36:01

outer space fiction but

36:04

you oh did

36:07

you write your name on library books no

36:11

these are his books, they're so sweet container

36:15

and it got more more

36:17

CDs I can't

36:20

really read what they all say

36:22

automotive technology class in the class

36:24

yeah in the class my

36:26

ride slap

36:29

and something I'm gonna let

36:32

that one go something

36:35

money and

36:37

twerk booty poppin

36:40

that twerk booty pop

36:43

it's probably

36:46

some type of some type of some

36:48

type of pop it that

36:52

thing sucks

36:56

oh my god this

36:58

is full of socks holy motherload

37:00

of weirdness the

37:08

fucking Erlon

37:11

that was a very exciting moment weren't

37:13

you thrilled to see like this bizarre

37:15

collection of socks I can't say

37:18

I was as thrilled as you know not at

37:20

all you know you was thrilled as if it

37:22

was like a gang of them remember them snakes

37:24

that you open something they just all pop out

37:26

that's how you would I felt like

37:28

an archaeologist finding the hidden secret like

37:31

tomb of information it was

37:34

great you

37:36

know I'm gonna count them two

37:44

three four five

37:46

six seven eight

37:49

nine ten eleven

37:52

twelve thirteen fourteen

37:55

fifteen sixteen seventeen

37:58

eighteen nineteen socks

38:00

inside of a bag. Oh no, no,

38:02

no. 2021. 21 socks, not in piers.

38:04

I love it. In like

38:13

a school

38:16

bag. What

38:22

was so clear looking at that laptop

38:24

bag full of socks is that Eric's

38:27

mission was that when he went to his

38:30

apartment he just grabbed everything that belonged to

38:32

Tony because he wasn't gonna make any decisions

38:34

right he was gonna take everything in there.

38:36

Think he wants all these socks? We

38:39

kept going through

38:46

the stuff with Eric and it was clear

38:48

Eric wasn't gonna throw any of this

38:50

stuff out without Tony's permission. Oh definitely

38:52

I mean he was still looking out

38:54

for him. Soon

38:58

he'll be out you know let's hope he's

39:00

doing regular you know yeah good school

39:02

is doing regular yeah he's doing well

39:04

yeah yeah doing what he should do

39:06

you know can I take a picture

39:08

of you holding okay yeah

39:10

yeah whatever yeah maybe one of each. Alright

39:13

you know good.

39:16

Tony she's been

39:18

here. So most

39:21

of Tony's stuff just got

39:23

packed back into the boxes

39:25

where they've been before. Well

39:29

thank you for letting us come over I appreciate

39:31

it nice to meet you because Tony's talked about

39:33

you a lot. Thank you so much Eric. Good

39:36

to meet you. Have a good night. A

39:51

few days later I met up with Tony inside

39:53

San Quentin because I wanted to know what that

39:56

experience had been like for him. It was

39:58

multi-layered. Multi-layered it

40:01

was cool. It was fun. It was

40:03

nice that a piece of my life here was connecting with

40:05

my piece of my life outside

40:07

and get a show a little

40:10

bit of more like who I was and stuff and

40:12

but it was also kind of like Kind

40:16

of sad to like see like a part of

40:18

my life that is not there anymore All

40:20

these physical things kicking up those memories. Do

40:23

you know what like touched me the most?

40:26

What my library card? Yeah Growing

40:29

up My mom always picked

40:31

me up from the library after school I

40:35

spent hours there. I lost my vision

40:37

Dean So

40:47

when you were talking to

40:49

us, did you feel Was

40:51

it very present to you that you

40:53

weren't prison or did you feel like it's kind

40:55

of transported somewhere else? It was cool I'll say

40:57

it out loud. It's a whenever you guys come

40:59

in. It feels like a little piece of homes

41:01

coming in It's weird. It connected to stuff for

41:04

me. So it's it's pretty it

41:06

just felt really special I

41:08

felt like I was lucky to be getting to be

41:10

seen by people I care about, you know, it's like

41:12

this is cool You know, I mean so

41:17

What did Eric say about the experience? He was happy he was

41:19

he was excited about it He was like he was glad to

41:21

meet y'all and if he was a

41:23

what I could get out of him Was that

41:25

it was like seeing into more of what I'm

41:27

doing now. He felt excited to be part of

41:30

it Yeah, he's a really really nice guy. He

41:32

loves the shit out of me. He's an angel

41:34

So like he's always interested in what I'm doing.

41:36

Yeah, he's clearly I

41:40

wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for him There

41:44

was times when it was my feet bleeding

41:46

raining cops after me know where

41:48

to go family rejected me Where

41:50

do I go? You know just show up and stuff There

41:53

was one time I she technically broke in

41:55

and fell asleep in his in the bedroom

41:58

And I woke up to a sandwich in a blanket. When.

42:09

We have it is. Computer bag I think

42:11

they were twenty. One

42:14

socks and there. It

42:16

was one of my favorite. Parts next the while ago

42:18

that this bag and it was just full

42:20

of white unmatched athletic side as I don't

42:22

wear socks to most more than once or

42:24

twice I will buy new socks or Dhaka

42:26

Don't likes says it is a different screens

42:28

for me like I was like I'd i

42:31

don't like old sauce. But. I love

42:33

new socks. I have a like that the

42:35

best thing in the world's new Do not

42:37

like other sox get seen as stretched out.

42:39

it's just our socks a pastor's snug my

42:41

ankle to has to be. Can still use.

42:44

My mouth is open is a and

42:46

exact same way to fight. If I

42:48

had tons of disposal income I would

42:50

only were. Per sec someone's straight up

42:52

yet say to that. So funny and

42:54

everything else has that same success is it

42:56

did their little bit baggies is. A

42:58

horrible could see and only really

43:01

tight yeah is that. It would. I

43:03

saw that bag. Of eggs and that sites. At first

43:05

it made me laugh as us like and that

43:07

into the into touching sucks but it was so.

43:09

Funny to count them off and imagine like why

43:11

is he as why. Did he was in

43:13

a room full that the other question that

43:15

I disable save every penny of I'm sure

43:17

he met. This is my guess is he's as on.

43:20

Make. Decisions feel. Like he wants

43:22

you to have the ability to say yes or no

43:24

to stuff at our summer to. Let's.

43:29

Say you get out on when

43:31

you think your relationship. To objects as

43:33

can see like. Dance.

43:37

A phony won't want and you my own answers.

43:40

Or com want to start fresh? I

43:42

don't want any other energy that's all

43:44

that stuff. I don't. feel

43:47

too much attachment to the i decide to do

43:49

some more thought our gifts on on on would

43:51

you be sad if all of that stuff disappeared

43:53

yeah yeah would now you put a very started

43:56

before he hurt during the know it i guess

43:58

over here If

44:01

you get out, do you think you're going to be

44:03

somebody who wants to have a lot of

44:05

things? Are you going to be a minimalist? I'm going to

44:08

try to be a minimalist. I

44:10

just want everything to just be kind of empty.

44:13

So very organized? Very organized, not cluttered.

44:15

What does that represent to you? Do

44:17

you just not have clutter? Organization, clear

44:19

mind. I've always been like that. Do

44:22

you think there's some kind of control that comes with

44:24

that, having an organized, minimal space?

44:27

Yeah. Sometimes my life feels out

44:29

of control once in a while. So

44:31

what are some of the things you'd want to acquire when you get

44:33

out? I would like a

44:35

bookshelf with a nice collection

44:37

of books on it. That'd be really cool. I

44:39

want a pair of wind chimes to

44:42

hang out my window. I can't wait to put some Niner

44:44

stuff up. Can you describe what the bookshelf would look like?

44:46

Yeah. It would be dark

44:49

wood, black wood, smooth with a matte

44:51

black finish. No

44:53

frills or ornates on it. And then

44:55

the top shelf would just be all

44:57

of these books that fill

45:00

my head with cool shit. The second shelf

45:02

would be all just the stuff that takes

45:04

me away. Escape, fantasy science fiction, right? Maybe

45:07

some reference on the bottom. I'd like to

45:09

have a cool record collection. And

45:11

then I want some of my grandfather. There's

45:13

something kind of cool listening to Tony

45:15

design his future self through this imaginary

45:18

bookshelf that he wants to have. Erlon,

45:20

I know no one's going to let me do this, but

45:23

I could totally do a whole podcast

45:25

about objects. You know, people listening, all

45:28

the things they own, their relationships with

45:30

their stuff. I cannot give enough

45:32

of this. I mean, let's

45:35

see this man go. Will you

45:37

come with me on it? Individually.

45:40

Thank you. My

45:44

name is John Yahia Johnson, Former

45:46

producer of the famous Ear Hustle

45:48

podcast. And Right now I'm a

45:51

transformational life coach, youth mentor, and

45:53

financial literacy advisor for the young

45:55

men at the Juvenile Justice Center

45:57

at Alameda County's Juvenile Hall. Oh

46:03

I'm deeply did are totally treated as a

46:05

hang on to the water from before he

46:07

went to prison. Absolutely as you farewell know

46:10

my mother held on to my wallet for

46:12

twenty five years and was she brought it

46:14

to me in a transitional housing. It was

46:17

a big inspiration to me. are you are

46:19

So because it contains my driver's license, Sosa

46:21

Security car and other vital statistics that I

46:23

needed to get myself further was ah parole

46:26

sniffer to hit it again He put me

46:28

ahead it again. Why do the struggling on

46:30

a computer trying to make ends meet. I

46:33

was already ahead of the curve and

46:35

going to take my driver's license exam

46:37

on a similar to you in evidence

46:39

may have been evidence bag vs in

46:41

the evidence bag. Crazy.

46:49

Air Has To was produced

46:51

by Nigel Poor or Long

46:53

Woods, Amy Stand In, Goose

46:55

Wireless and Razon New York

46:57

Times. Seven on Sigman is

46:59

the managing the producer. The

47:01

producing team in size San

47:03

Quentin includes Derail cities Davis,

47:05

Tony to Trinidad and down

47:07

with the inside managing producers

47:09

Tony to Foyer and are

47:11

inside Sound designer was received.

47:14

Thanks to Act In Word and Is

47:16

the same Clinton's Acting War. Parker.

47:19

Associate Warden Louis and Lieutenant

47:21

New board at the California

47:23

Institution for Gaming for their

47:26

support of the show. Thanks

47:28

also to this woman Here

47:30

I am lieutenant Cmr a

47:32

very athletic information officer at

47:35

and rehabilitation center Line of

47:37

per episode. Episode

47:39

Miss Past as. Amplified

47:42

Voice his vision Power of

47:45

Communities that are transforming the

47:47

justice system. For.

47:49

More information about this episode.

47:51

Check out the show notes

47:53

on here Hustles website here

47:55

Hustle sq.com You can also

47:57

find out more about is

47:59

shown. Instagram, Facebook, and

48:01

YouTube at Ear Hustle

48:03

SQ. Erlon

48:07

Woods, Sound Design and Engineers

48:09

the Show with help from Fernando

48:11

Arruda, Harry Colhane, Rashid Zinneman,

48:13

and Doral Sadiq Davis. Music

48:16

for this episode comes from David

48:18

Jazi, Antoine Williams, E. Phil Phillips,

48:20

Rashid Zinneman, Gregory Dixon, Fernando Arruda,

48:22

and me, Erlon Woods. Want more

48:24

Ear Hustle? Subscribe to Ear Hustle

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Plus. We've got bonus episodes and

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or in the Apple Podcasts app. And

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while you're at it, share some love

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48:45

Podcasts. That's a big help to the

48:47

show, and plus, I love receipts. Receipts?

48:50

That's what they, that's the talk

48:52

nowadays, the receipts. What

48:54

does that mean? That being that something actually

48:56

happens. Ah, you get proof

48:58

that people love them? Those are the

49:00

receipts. Oh, that's excellent. And one more

49:02

thing, don't forget to sign up for

49:04

our newsletter, The Lowdown. Every

49:07

issue we've got extra tidbits, like Erlon, I don't know if you

49:09

know this, but for this lowdown, I wrote a little reflection on

49:11

what it was like for us to visit,

49:14

Eric has discussed your tone of things.

49:17

Just talk about that yapping though. I don't know

49:19

why I did. Stay here, buddy.

49:22

Subscribe at Ear Hustle

49:24

sq.com/newsletter. Ear Hustle

49:26

is a proud member of Radiotopia from

49:28

PRX. A network of

49:30

independent, creator-owned, listener-supported podcasts.

49:33

Discover audio with vision

49:35

at radiotopia.fm. I'm

49:38

Nigel Poore. I'm Erlon Woods. Thanks

49:41

for listening. Oh

49:47

yeah, you did have some CDs. Yeah. I

49:50

can't remember, there was a very funny title of one. It was

49:52

something about butts. Oh

49:54

no, no, that was not

49:56

a music CD. Oh, it wasn't? Oh,

49:58

well we didn't. Why did he do that? It was Ewip

50:00

CD. I still want to tell him to take it

50:03

home. Notch.

50:08

Ear Hustle listeners are the best.

50:10

They really are. You're always in touch, letting

50:12

us know what you think about episodes and

50:14

sharing the love. Yep, it's really

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a two-way conversation. A relationship.

50:19

Indeed it is. And if you're

50:21

looking for a way to deepen that relationship,

50:23

consider signing up for Ear Hustle Plus. Ear

50:26

Hustle Plus. It's a new subscription service

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that delivers bonus Ear Hustle episodes wherever

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addition to ad-free episodes of Ear

50:35

Hustle, subscribers get behind the scenes,

50:37

off the cuff conversations. We have

50:39

a monthly AMA, which is

50:41

Ask Me Anything episode, where

50:43

you and I answer questions

50:45

sent in by subscribers. And

50:48

seriously, no question is too

50:50

random or wacky. Questions like,

50:52

what's our favorite book? Do

50:54

we hang out in between seasons?

50:56

What's the most technically challenging Ear

50:58

Hustle episode ever? Okay, Erlon, yeah, those

51:01

are good questions, but like we said above,

51:03

I'd like some wag you're on actually. We've

51:06

also started doing episode commentary, where you

51:08

and I listen to a classic Ear

51:10

Hustle episode, and talk about how

51:13

it came together, hard decisions made along the

51:15

way, and where the people in the episodes

51:17

are now. Yeah, we did that for Silly,

51:19

and it was a lot of fun. So we're definitely

51:21

going to do more. And Erlon, tell them about that

51:24

idea you're working on. Sure, I've been sitting

51:26

down with some of our formerly incarcerated

51:28

friends, who have gotten out and are

51:30

doing well. Just basically showing how

51:32

they went from one situation to a

51:34

better situation, if that makes sense. Those

51:36

would start dropping in the Ear Hustle

51:39

Plus feed soon. Listeners, we want you

51:41

in this conversation. Find out

51:43

more about Ear Hustle

51:45

Plus at earhustlesq.com/plus. Or

51:48

subscribe right now in the Apple

51:50

Podcast Player app. That's earhustlesq.com/plus.

51:52

Or write in the

51:55

Apple Podcast Player. So,

51:57

what is your favorite book, Erlon? That's

52:00

what I'm saying. Really?

52:02

Yes. Radio

52:06

Tepia. From

52:09

PRX.