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following episode of Ear Hustle contains language and

1:56

content that might not be suitable for all

1:58

listeners. I

2:15

noticed this while we were talking to someone and

2:17

I tried not to get distracted by it, so

2:19

there's like a medical table and then

2:21

on the wall over the table are six

2:28

dispensers with cereal in them.

2:30

So there's corn flakes, rice

2:32

krispies, bran flakes, apple

2:35

whirls, honey nuts and fruit

2:37

whirls. You're work here right?

2:39

Yeah. What's up with the

2:41

cereal here? Well you

2:43

know we try to be a five star

2:46

area back here you know not like

2:48

the rest of the areas. Nice it's

2:50

also colorful. I fill it up

2:52

every morning I don't like it when it's not full

2:54

it just looks better when it's nice

2:56

and full. Which one do you think is the most popular? Probably

2:59

the apple jacks, the apple jacks

3:01

and the Cheerios, honey nut

3:03

Cheerios. It's kind of sweet

3:05

but it's kind of healthy so you

3:08

get a little bit of both worlds there. Yeah.

3:13

These guys they don't like

3:15

what comes on their tray or they

3:17

just certain things they just they don't

3:20

want it. I'm

3:22

sure like your kids if you have children I

3:24

have children that's one thing you

3:26

could always get them to eat. You know unless

3:28

we get older we kind of revert back to

3:31

our our childish state again. This

3:37

was really not an ordinary prisoner lawn.

3:40

Honey nut Cheerio. I like

3:43

honey nut Cheerio. Did you ever have

3:45

those in prison? No. Yeah

3:47

so we've been wanting to check out this place for

3:50

a while. It's a prison hospice.

3:52

It took a lot of negotiation but

3:55

we finally made it in so that's

3:57

where we're taking listeners today. Nigel

4:00

Poor. I'm Erlon Woods and

4:02

this is Ear Hustle from PRX's Radio

4:04

Topia. So

4:09

the history of this prison hospice is

4:11

pretty interesting. It was started back

4:13

in the 80s at the beginning

4:15

of the AIDS epidemic. Back

4:17

then if you were incarcerated in

4:19

California and became sick with AIDS

4:21

there was this one men's prison

4:23

they sent you to, CMF, also

4:25

known as the California Medical Facility

4:28

near Sacramento. So

4:30

you can imagine back then you have

4:32

all these sick young men in one

4:35

prison often alone far from

4:37

their families dying of this

4:39

terrible disease that at the time really

4:42

very few people understood and the

4:44

idea of the hospice was to

4:46

bring some comfort and compassion and

4:48

really a sense of dignity in

4:50

their final days. To

4:53

get there after you go through

4:55

security you got to walk down

4:57

this long ass hallway. The

5:07

long ass hallway. I don't know if

5:10

this is remember we've talked about long ass

5:12

hallways before in prison and I've never seen

5:14

one so I have to admit I was

5:16

a little bit excited. Was it long? It

5:19

was truly a long ass hallway. So we had

5:22

to stand

5:24

there for a bit and

5:27

just take in the scene.

5:30

This is just a long hallway that goes

5:32

through the prison and I don't

5:34

know where people are coming and going to but it's really

5:36

busy and there's so many great sounds. This

5:48

is Dr. Michelle DeThomas. She's

5:50

the medical director for the hospital and she

5:52

let us down the long hallway to a

5:55

door on the right. We

5:58

just walked into the hospice area. It

6:00

smells very different than the rest of

6:03

the prison. I can't quite... I tried

6:06

to identify the smell in here. It

6:09

looks kind of like a regular hospital ward

6:11

with the nurses stationed at the center of

6:14

it and then you had these rooms all

6:16

around for the patients. It was like a ring of room. Yeah,

6:19

exactly. Maybe it's

6:21

the garden walk around. Can

6:24

we come in? Nigel. Nigel.

6:28

Can we come in? Hi,

6:33

Mario. So

6:36

we walked into one of the rooms and were introduced

6:38

to a patient named Mario. How are you? They want to

6:40

know how you like it here. Excellent.

6:44

Hi, Laurie.

6:47

Mario was wearing this blue knit hat

6:50

that was kind of... Almost

6:52

bigger than his head? Yes. Where

6:56

did you get your hat? Did someone make that

6:59

for you? We have

7:01

a group that crochets and all the patients

7:03

usually get one. They'll come and ask them

7:05

what their favorite football team maybe or their

7:08

favorite color and they crochet them up. This

7:10

is one of the incarcerated guys who work

7:12

in the hospice. They have like

7:14

a knitting circle? Yes, they do. We have

7:17

one of our workers here, Billy Ray, and

7:19

he's bigger than me. Big, muscular marine. I

7:21

always tell him, I say, you

7:24

pretty little ass on down there, crochet class.

7:26

All the tough guys sit around and they

7:28

crochet hats for the patients. It's just sweet

7:30

as hell. So much love into

7:32

these hats and the patients love them. He's

7:36

in a rocket house. He

7:41

brought the boom box. A couple of

7:43

booms over, we met another patient, a

7:45

guy named Mr. Roberts. He was also this

7:48

tiny wisp of a man lying in

7:50

the bed. You could barely register that

7:52

there was a body there underneath all

7:54

those sheets and blankets. But

7:57

he was getting a visit from the music

7:59

therapist. You're gonna sing it,

8:01

right? Cause you love this song. Hey,

8:10

good lookin' What you got

8:14

cookin' How

8:17

about cookin' This visit with Mr. Roberts

8:19

made us rethink some of what we

8:21

had hoped to do on this reporting

8:23

trip. Yeah, I think we were hoping

8:25

to really get to know people. Mm-hmm. And

8:29

based on some of their conditions, that wasn't

8:31

possible. I mean, a lot of

8:33

these people we were meeting here were

8:35

at this point where they were withdrawing.

8:38

And I felt uncomfortable intruding during

8:40

this really profound transition. I mean,

8:43

Erlon, we were strangers to them. Right.

8:45

I mean, I think this trip

8:47

became less about one individual person

8:49

and more about hospice itself, you

8:52

know? Alright.

8:59

Thank you. Have a good day. Thank

9:01

you. But

9:04

you know what? There were some

9:07

surprises. Hi, Alan.

9:09

How long have you been here? Twenty-four

9:13

hours. Alan

9:16

looked like he was in his sixties, but it was a

9:18

little hard to tell. He was

9:20

in a wheelchair, really hunched over. He

9:23

told us he had cancer and had chosen

9:25

to spend his last months here in

9:27

the prison hospice. They

9:30

say there's four stages to accepting

9:32

a scenario like this. Dr.

9:36

Elizabeth Kula Ross? Yeah. So

9:42

I'm going through all four of those stages. And

9:47

E, you weren't in the room at this point,

9:50

so it was just me and our editor, Amy. And she was

9:52

holding the microphone, and she had to really

9:54

lean in close to Alan because his voice

9:56

was so faint, and there were these really

9:58

long pauses. And

10:01

I gotta tell you, I had a real

10:03

moment there. I just felt uncomfortable

10:05

and awkward, and it was like, what are

10:07

we doing here? What are we trying to get

10:09

from these people? So Amy

10:12

stepped up and took over why you

10:14

got your shit together. Exactly. What

10:17

stage are you at right now, do you think? I

10:22

guess I'm accepting a better food of your life.

10:25

I have a master's degree in psychology. I

10:29

survived in Marine Corps boot camp. So

10:36

I guess I'm ready to go. How

10:42

do you feel about that, is that scary or not?

10:49

No, not so much. Sorry,

10:54

I can't think of anything. You

10:57

look like you're thinking very hard. Just

11:05

riding the wave. Is

11:10

there anything we should ask you, or anything you'd

11:12

like to say? Gosh,

11:21

I wish I had gone to the office

11:23

more. That's

11:28

a good one. I know, that cracked me up. And

11:30

you know what I think, Erlon? That

11:32

comment kind of helped me get back

11:34

on track. Right, I mean, it's just

11:37

another conversation about weird shit, we do it

11:39

all the time. I

11:42

never met a drug I didn't like. Well,

11:47

it's been 30 years, so I just did any

11:49

LSC. What

11:55

was your favorite drug? I

11:57

got so many. and

12:00

the methylene, DMT, which

12:04

is sure acting psychedelic. Can

12:09

you describe what that feels like? It's

12:12

kind of like the visual

12:15

perception of LLC that

12:19

it's all in about an hour. This

12:24

is hard to hear, but what Amy just asked

12:26

him was, did your ego die? Not

12:30

so much with DMT mushrooms

12:33

and the LSE. You

12:36

can say that. What does that

12:38

feel like? It's

12:41

inevitable. I

12:44

can't sort of hear it. Do you

12:46

think that death might feel

12:48

anything like that? I

12:53

wouldn't think so. The

12:58

light goes out. You

13:02

don't have a little pain. Man,

13:07

I had almost 10,000 songs

13:10

on my iTunes. That's

13:14

a bummer. I'm

13:16

not going to be able to hear those again. I

13:24

guess I'm

13:27

done. Thank

13:30

you very much. Thank you. We

13:41

just stepped out into a garden that's

13:43

behind the hospice unit. Looks like there's

13:46

a fountain out here. There's

13:48

little covered areas. It's very pleasant. There's

13:50

a view of the

13:52

hills in the background. There's

13:55

lots of plants around here. It looks like you

13:57

can stroll around. For

14:00

the most part, the hospice

14:02

looked like a pretty regular

14:04

hospital, you know? But

14:06

this garden they have is like

14:08

one of those Zen type meditation

14:10

gardens, you know? I'm getting very excited

14:13

just thinking about it. I have never seen anything like it

14:15

in a prison before. And I'm going to use two words

14:17

to describe it that I never think about when I think

14:19

of prison. What was that?

14:22

It was delightful and exhilarating

14:24

and also restful. That's three.

14:26

Three. Okay. Three

14:28

words. And that's the heart of the hospice program. So

14:33

starting up here, we

14:35

have our citronella

14:38

and that is the plant there with the pinkish

14:40

thing. They call that the

14:42

mosquito plant. It repels the mosquitoes. They

14:46

don't like this. One

14:48

of the incarcerated workers here gave us a

14:51

tour of all the plants. And

14:53

these are currants and the currants you

14:55

could eat the berries. So

14:57

they usually come out a light, a medium and

15:00

a dark berry. People warned us, if

15:02

you talk to this guy, you are going to get

15:04

a very extensive tour

15:06

of this garden. Okay. Now

15:08

we have this. This is a desert willow.

15:10

We'll go around and see the butterfly plant.

15:12

Right here we have our lavender, chicks in

15:14

here. And we have a lot of little

15:16

lizards to fly around here. So here's your

15:18

aldeberry. Now that's the one that has medicinal

15:20

for... Yeah. So eventually

15:22

we extricated ourselves from this very

15:25

thorough tour. Yes, we did. Because

15:28

we heard there was someone else we should be

15:30

talking to. He

15:32

has a hole with him. Oh, he really

15:34

does have a hole with him. He wasn't kidding. You

15:36

tend the garden? Have we started recording?

15:40

Yeah. Oh, we never

15:42

turned off the recorder. My

15:44

name is Joe Bick and I am

15:46

a physician who's been working in the Department of

15:48

Corrections for the last 30 years this month. This

15:53

guy is the head honcho of

15:55

health services for all California prisons.

15:58

He's a real big one. But

16:00

on this day, he was just regular gardener.

16:04

One of the things I was thinking about standing out here is

16:07

that I see something here that

16:09

I haven't seen at any other prison in

16:11

the United States, and that is areas of

16:13

shade, quiet, and that there's a little bit

16:16

of privacy that's created by the armor here.

16:18

And so this actually, oddly, does not feel

16:20

like being in prison. And

16:23

when you look at it, you realize it's not that hard

16:25

to create this, but it certainly

16:27

isn't created in very many spaces. Thank

16:31

you for that feedback. That's exactly what we're

16:33

trying to capture. All

16:35

of this was done in consultation with the people

16:37

who were living and dying here and the people

16:40

that work here, asking them, what

16:42

is it that you want in this space? People

16:45

said, I want to put my feet in

16:47

the grass. And

16:49

people will come out here and lay in that grass. I

16:52

want the movement of a swing. I

16:55

want to see things moving, like this

16:57

tree, this chautaupe, that was picked because

16:59

it sways in the wind, it

17:02

has beautiful flowers. Yeah. It

17:04

seems like you can meander out here, which is not

17:06

something you can really do inside of a tree. You

17:08

can. And you can find your space. There

17:12

are people that want a space with a

17:14

lot of people who want to talk. There

17:16

are other people that are facing death, they

17:18

want a space where they're more private, so

17:20

they can be by themselves, or maybe they

17:22

and their family want some place that's private.

17:26

Can one of my downhairs

17:28

still lie down here? You can. Can

17:30

I? You can. I'm

17:32

going to lie down here, sorry. Isn't it just like a nice place to

17:34

sit down? No, just to lie down and

17:36

look up. In this grass?

17:40

Erland, I can barely express to you how astonishing

17:42

it was to lie down in that grass. Yeah.

17:46

I just couldn't do it. Why not?

17:48

Why couldn't you join me down there? Well,

17:51

I mean, you know, there's some things that, you know,

17:53

you can do and there's some things that I can't

17:55

do. But you can't get prone? No, I can, but,

17:58

you know, I'm not that kind of person. there

18:00

no more like that so huh yeah

18:02

I know I don't understand what that means

18:04

I know I

18:08

can't do it I'm not there no more

18:11

like that so that don't make

18:13

sense to you neither no I think I get

18:15

it as a previous prisoner there's some things that

18:17

I probably won't do just on the string of

18:19

doing it okay I get it but

18:22

Erlon it was glorious oh you

18:24

look good you looked at very peaceful I

18:26

was so I

18:37

decided this was going to be a really great place

18:39

to do an interview and Erlon

18:41

you didn't mind holding the mic no I had

18:43

to stand there and do production work night

18:46

but a team

18:49

my name is Jeff Maria and I'm

18:52

sitting in the hospice garden are you

18:54

really sitting oh I am laying down

18:56

on a bed of grass I'm looking

18:59

up at the blue sky smells good

19:01

out here nice fresh air and got

19:03

the sun on my face just

19:07

laying on the grass like when I

19:09

was a kid yeah what do you think about when you're

19:11

actually laying on the grass right now I'm living in the

19:13

moment yeah

19:17

I was so struck by this

19:19

experience that in prison you know

19:22

there was this real sense of ease

19:24

and relaxation and we're not

19:26

just in prison we're in a hospice

19:29

where people are dying and that there

19:31

was this really connective beautiful moment

19:34

lying in that grass with him and talking

19:36

I'll never actually will never forget it I

19:39

don't think he gonna forget that even when

19:42

the last time you laid down with a

19:45

woman and had a conversation in the grass

19:47

oh you know forever forever I

19:50

mean I've been in prison myself 44 years now ever

19:54

since I was 17 years old Jeff

19:59

is was called a piece or pastoral

20:01

care service worker. He's an incarcerated

20:03

guy here at the prison and

20:05

his job here is to care

20:07

for the man who are dying.

20:09

And when a person is really at the end of their

20:11

life, like the doctors say they are

20:13

72 hours away from death, Jeff

20:16

and the other incarcerated workers start a

20:18

vigil. So that means that

20:20

at all times a PCS worker is

20:23

by their bedside so that no person

20:25

has to die alone. Do you

20:29

think there's such thing as a good death? Absolutely.

20:32

What is it? Well

20:36

I think it's the the

20:38

patient is comfortable. He doesn't

20:40

have a lot of fear. You know

20:42

I mean everybody can be anxious about

20:44

the unknown but if

20:46

he's comfortable he has people around

20:48

him that he trusts so he

20:50

doesn't feel vulnerable. We do

20:53

what we can to bring

20:55

the family in to him either you

20:57

know on the video or in person.

21:00

A lot of times we'll roll their whole bed

21:02

out here and then the family will be out

21:04

here and they can stay out here

21:06

and visit all day with them. Do

21:09

you talk to them about their fears? Sure. I'm

21:12

there to hold their hand if that's if

21:14

that makes them feel better or just listen

21:17

to them. Sometimes they just like to tell

21:19

stories about their life. Sometimes

21:22

you know they will talk to you about things

21:24

that they're ashamed of or they feel bad and

21:26

they want to get it off their chest and

21:29

let it go. It's not creepy or weird

21:31

like you might think or scary. It's

21:34

at least for me it's nothing like

21:36

that. What is

21:38

it? I

21:40

think it's sacred. I think it's it's

21:43

a privilege. It's an honor that somebody that

21:46

in their most vulnerable state allows you to

21:48

be in that space with them. Do

21:51

you think it is the worst thing to die in prison?

21:56

Well it's relative right it

21:58

depends on the person. We've

22:01

had patients that have been in prison

22:03

a long time that have nobody and

22:05

nothing out there. And they're

22:07

like, you know, I'm good here. I'm

22:10

getting taken care of here. I'm

22:12

comfortable and I'm

22:15

okay. I'm

22:22

Alan Kronitzky, PCS worker here. This

22:24

is my friend. I'm

22:26

Jerry Judson. I'm also a PCS worker

22:28

here. We

22:31

met Alan earlier when he was taking care of

22:33

Mario. The guy with the knit cap.

22:36

Right. And at this point, Alan was taking a

22:38

break in the garden with his friend, Jerry.

22:41

You know, we're really lucky that

22:44

we have the opportunity to

22:46

do something like this. These

22:49

kind of chances just don't exist behind

22:52

bars. It's

22:55

a way for us to make amends

22:58

for the wrongs that we've done in

23:00

our lives. So

23:02

I'm very grateful. There's

23:07

sometimes when someone passes away, it's very

23:09

traumatic. You know, there's sometimes I'll

23:11

tag out. We had the

23:13

guy here had bone cancer when he was so young. He was

23:15

too young. He was in the 20s. And

23:18

it breaks your freaking heart. That's several times a

23:20

day, every day. You know, he's

23:22

a kid and there was one point and they said

23:24

he wanted me to give him a back rub. I

23:26

had to tag out with somebody else. I said, I can't

23:28

do it right now. I think we're

23:30

out in the garden to cry. Dude's in his 20s. He's a

23:32

kid. It's hard, you know. But

23:35

as much as I tell myself, like, I can't do

23:37

this anymore. This is hard. This is too hard. I

23:39

tell myself that as I'm walking up the hallway to come to work.

23:44

What is it about you as individuals

23:46

that don't think about

23:49

it, really think about it. And don't it be

23:51

modest, but why? Like, why are you so compassionate?

23:53

Why do you give so much care? I

23:56

cause someone to die without

23:59

a loved one. sitting there

24:01

and telling them, hey, it's gonna be all

24:03

right. It's gonna be okay. We love you.

24:05

We're here with you. So

24:07

what can I do now? Is

24:10

to be there for those that don't have that.

24:14

The guilt is real. Are

24:21

you hunting me down, huh? Are you hunting you down,

24:23

is that okay? That's all right, yes, I'm okay with

24:26

it. Can you introduce yourself? My

24:29

name's Michael Powell. Excuse

24:32

me. Yeah. And

24:36

I'm being treated for brain cancer. So

24:41

Michael, he's kind of this big, very pale

24:43

guy. And Erlon, remember he was wearing that

24:46

cap on his head that looked like it

24:48

had all kinds of electrodes coming out of

24:50

it. Like the Gaga quarters? Yeah,

24:52

it looked like quarters on his head. I mean, it was clearly some

24:54

kind of treatment he was getting. Yeah. And

24:59

you're out in the garden? Yes.

25:02

And the nurses are gonna walk you around?

25:05

I walk by myself out here, but they check on

25:07

me all the time. Yeah? Yeah. What do you think

25:10

about this garden? Oh, it's beautiful. I

25:12

came from a place that medical

25:16

treatment for him is

25:21

kind of lacking. Sorry.

25:26

That's okay. It's hard. Well,

25:28

he misdiagnosed me for two and a half

25:31

years. So

25:33

two and a half years

25:35

is important. It is. Yeah.

25:38

What were your symptoms during that

25:41

time? Severe headaches. So

25:43

they said I had science infections. So

25:47

that's what they treated me for. And

25:51

then I went to saw

25:54

a real doctor. And

25:56

he said this ain't

25:58

no science infection. And

26:02

within five days they took it out.

26:04

And how long ago was that? January

26:06

16th. January. So that's about

26:09

five months ago. Right.

26:12

So the cancer that I have,

26:14

they say 24 months to 90.

26:21

That's a lot to take in for anybody. Yeah.

26:24

After doing 20 years of prison, yeah. So

26:28

how? I apologize. I

26:31

wish I could hold your hand. I'm not allowed to,

26:33

but I'm sorry that you're feeling

26:36

this way. Yeah. Michael

26:47

was expecting to be released from prison in

26:49

about five years. But the

26:51

cancer diagnosis makes it unlikely he'll live

26:54

that long. So

26:57

he's applying for what's called compassionate

27:00

release. It's a California law

27:02

that lets people apply to be released from

27:04

prison if a doctor says they're

27:06

at the very end of their life. A

27:09

place to try to send me to

27:11

is by my family. I

27:15

look forward to just go out and have a hamburger. Yeah.

27:18

Give me some pizza. Yeah. Why

27:21

do you want a hamburger? Oh, we

27:24

very rarely get real meat around here. That's true.

27:26

Yeah. If you

27:28

could take a walk anywhere, where would you go? The

27:33

beach. Yeah, go to the beach. Yeah.

27:36

I hope you get to do that. I will. What's

27:43

the best part of the day for you? Writing

27:47

a letter, coming out here and hanging out. Yeah.

27:50

Yeah. And what are the

27:52

most difficult times of the day? Getting up in the

27:54

morning. Really? Why? I

27:56

just, I'm still here. So there's

27:58

not a... good feeling though when

28:01

you wake up in the morning and you're

28:03

still here? I mean that you're still alive.

28:05

Yes well the still alive part yeah but

28:08

no one wants to die

28:12

in custody. You

28:17

just don't want to die in custody. Yeah.

28:22

Yeah.

28:24

Is it the pain that's more scary

28:27

than the emotional part? I've

28:31

been stabbed. I've been shot

28:33

up more times than I know and so it's

28:37

never I've never been scared of that but

28:42

knowing it's coming I think is but

28:45

now you don't know when. Yeah. You know. I

28:47

could get hit by a bus the

28:50

day I get out so. Yeah. Who knows I

28:53

just don't want to be miserable when I go. Mr.

29:06

Powell when we came out here what were you about to

29:08

do out here? Just walk. Just

29:10

walk? Yeah. What part of the

29:12

garden do you like to spend time in? Over

29:15

there there's hummingbirds down

29:17

there by the swings.

29:19

Yeah. Yeah. Do you hang out

29:21

in that swing? Yeah I sit over

29:23

there usually on the sunny side though just

29:25

get some sun. Yeah. Can we walk over

29:28

there with you? Yeah.

29:30

This would a hummingbirds come? They come

29:32

over here. Don't be by in a

29:35

minute. I

29:43

remember we sat there for a while with him

29:46

just kind of quietly swinging on the

29:48

bench in the gazebo and I

29:51

think the garden was doing what it was supposed to do.

29:54

It was really peaceful. On

29:56

that note I think we should take a break. Let's

29:59

do it. It's

30:14

that time again. Time to make the

30:17

donuts? What the hell? You

30:19

have to have grown up in the 80s to

30:22

get to that one. Nah, it's time for another

30:24

Catch a Kite episode. In case you're not

30:26

familiar, Catch a Kite is a

30:28

Q&A episode in which listeners ask

30:30

questions about life in prison and

30:32

get answers from incarcerated folks. This

30:35

season, we'll be switching things up. Listeners

30:37

might not know that people inside many

30:40

U.S. prisons can now hear ear hustle

30:42

on prison tablets, kinda like a bulky

30:45

iPad. Yeah, but a lot less fancy.

30:47

So here's how it's gonna work. We're

30:50

asking you, our listeners, to send

30:52

us audio questions about life inside

30:54

prison. We'll get those questions

30:56

answered by incarcerated people around the country

30:59

who listen to ear hustle on their

31:01

tablets. You know, we've never

31:03

taken listener questions to prisons outside

31:05

California, so this is a first

31:07

for us. Indeed. To submit

31:10

your question, leave us a voicemail at 510-906-1569

31:12

or send a voicemail to info at

31:19

earhustlesq.com. Include

31:21

your name and where you're calling from, and please

31:23

keep your questions to under 30 seconds. Get

31:26

your questions to us by March 27th. That

31:29

number one more time is 510-906-1569 or send

31:31

a voicemail to info at

31:33

earhustlesq.com. I'm

31:53

Chaplain Keith Knopf. I'm

31:55

the Director of Pastoral Care in the

31:58

hospice here. here

32:00

for 27 years? All

32:04

prisons have chaplains but here at the

32:06

hospice it's a little different. You

32:09

know there's a part of Knopf's job that's

32:11

like being a private eye

32:15

because a lot of these men haven't seen

32:17

their families in decades and

32:19

sometimes they want to make contact again

32:21

before they die. So

32:23

a lot of our patients they come

32:25

to us and they haven't had contact

32:27

with their families in 20-30 years and

32:29

it's for a lot of different reasons.

32:31

We have you know 30 plus institutions

32:34

in the state of California and they get

32:37

lost in the shuffle and so then they

32:39

just lose where the family member is and

32:41

sometimes because of the crimes

32:43

they back away. And

32:46

so in our hospice though we want

32:48

to make sure that we

32:50

locate families so they

32:52

can be notified and also to give them

32:55

an opportunity for some kind

32:57

of restoration so that the patient can

32:59

make amends with the families so

33:01

there can be some reconciliation to take place

33:04

so the families can receive

33:06

some closure and

33:08

so our patients can leave this world having

33:11

closure for themselves as well. Knopf

33:17

told us about this one guy who had lost

33:19

touch with his family. The

33:21

guy told Knopf that he had an aunt

33:23

and uncle who had died and four cousins

33:25

but he had no idea where they were.

33:28

So Knopf had to track them down.

33:31

I prayed about it and I thought

33:35

about the

33:37

fact that the aunt and uncle had a

33:39

house and that house

33:42

probably was sold and

33:45

so I knew where the address was. I

33:48

called the various realtors in the

33:51

area and I found out who

33:54

sold the house and

33:56

I asked them if they could give me the

33:58

name of the company and they did. So I

34:00

called the title company and I knew that there

34:03

would be one of those daughters who would have had

34:06

been the exact cutrics of the of

34:08

the estate and the next thing I

34:11

know there's four cousins

34:13

Wanting to see him They

34:16

didn't know he was in prison and it

34:18

was great. Wow great fun So I'm just bringing

34:21

him together so they had closure they knew what

34:23

what happened to him and why he was here

34:26

In my 27 years. I've had maybe

34:28

only two maybe three of

34:30

the family members who said I don't want anything to do

34:33

with them One

34:35

even said that they

34:37

considered the patient less than plant life So

34:40

just let me know when they die But

34:43

all the other ones that we've

34:45

located they wanted to have some

34:48

kind of reconciliation some kind of

34:50

closure Another Part

34:55

of now's job is to help people decide

34:57

what kind of death they want to have

35:00

and as much as possible I guess help

35:02

them face their end with some kind of

35:04

acceptance and maybe even peace How

35:08

do you comfort people in this

35:10

moment where there's so much anxiety? I imagine

35:12

for a lot of people it's really an

35:14

anxious time in a fearful time So

35:18

how do you like sit with them and

35:20

touch them and talk to them with their

35:22

patients? Yeah, I usually talk to them about

35:24

hope And what

35:26

gives them hope? I Will

35:30

talk about things of faith We'll

35:32

talk about their hope to

35:35

reconcile with their family members To

35:38

make amends with those that they've injured

35:41

Can you hold their hand or oh, yeah, you

35:43

can I'll give them a hug go hold their

35:45

hand you be there for them Is

35:48

that different another read to them? Well write

35:50

to them and then our pastoral

35:52

care inmate workers They're

35:55

the heroes. They're the ones that are there making

35:58

sure that no one dies alone Some

36:02

of our Buddhists, there have been

36:04

two that wanted to die alone. They wanted

36:06

to be mindful of their

36:08

last breath. They

36:10

wanted to have their head propped up so

36:13

they can project their essence into a

36:16

higher plane and then be

36:18

reincarnated on a higher level. They

36:22

didn't want to have any kind of distractions and

36:25

they didn't want a lot of pain

36:27

meds. They wanted some to

36:30

take the edge off but they wanted to

36:32

be alert and they

36:34

wanted to die with a

36:37

clarity of knowing

36:40

this life to the next.

36:44

North told us about one patient in particular,

36:47

a Buddhist man who was preparing to die

36:49

in hospice. We were

36:51

in the wings in case he wanted something but

36:55

he wanted definitely to be alone,

36:57

to be mindful. We

37:01

were not there right

37:03

at the moment of his death because he wanted to

37:05

be alert and he wanted to

37:07

be alone but we were hovering. So

37:09

we kind of walked by and looked in, hovered

37:12

around, you know, and neat thing without

37:15

bothering him too much. And

37:18

the nursing staff, of course, their job

37:20

is to check on him but

37:22

he didn't want anything else. He

37:24

didn't want somebody holding his hand. He just

37:26

wanted to be left alone. If

37:31

you're sitting with someone who's dying, in

37:33

the process of dying, what's in your

37:35

opinion, what is the best thing? What

37:38

advice would you give me to be present

37:40

for somebody? Don't

37:42

talk so much. Listen

37:45

more. Listen for their heartbeat. Have

37:47

your breathing coincide with

37:50

their breathing. Just kind of tune

37:52

into them and

37:55

just listen. And then

37:57

if words come, let the words come.

38:00

but mostly let them speak. Sometimes

38:06

they speak with their eyes, sometimes they're too

38:08

weak to speak, and they can blink, you

38:10

know, one

38:12

blink for yes, two blinks for no, that kind of thing.

38:15

Sometimes they can squeeze a hand a little bit,

38:18

you know, you just let them know that you're there. For

38:22

a lot of the guys, they know

38:24

that God forgives them, but they

38:26

have a hard time forgiving themselves when they think

38:28

about what they've done. I

38:32

want to be compassionate, and

38:34

I understand that people can't live a life

38:36

completely in shame, but there's

38:39

some times where I feel like it's

38:41

right, you shouldn't

38:44

really struggle with what you did and how

38:46

deeply you affected so many lives. So

38:48

how do we come to terms with that, as

38:50

like a caring person whose

38:52

heart is open to not

38:55

wanting people to suffer? I

38:57

see my job as to help them open

38:59

up to those things and

39:02

to take ownership of those things, but

39:05

they may not be ready for that. We

39:09

had a patient back here who slaughtered his

39:12

wife in front of five daughters. He

39:14

had a real bad anger management

39:16

issue and his own problems, and

39:18

he just totally lost it one

39:21

evening at the table, slaughtered

39:23

his wife with a knife. His daughters

39:25

saw this, and they were little.

39:30

Even in this situation, Knopf felt

39:32

like maybe there was some good that could happen

39:34

here. So he went in search of the

39:36

daughters to ask if they wanted to

39:39

see their dad again. So

39:42

I was able to find those daughters through

39:45

the Eastern Orthodox Church,

39:47

and they wanted to come

39:50

and visit, and they wanted to ask them questions. Why

39:52

did you do this, Dad? What was this

39:55

all about? Who prepared

39:57

those women for the experience?

40:00

I talked to him before they came in. I mentioned

40:04

to him that they'll be remembering

40:06

things from the vantage point of a little

40:08

child. And I said,

40:11

now he's this sucked up old guy. And

40:15

he's weak, physically. And he

40:17

doesn't have power over them,

40:20

but he wants to see them too. And

40:23

they saw that as a kindness. We

40:26

prepared him for the meeting as well. In his

40:30

culture, the

40:33

husband, the father is the one in charge.

40:36

And I said, you lost that when you

40:38

killed your wife, especially in

40:40

front of these daughters. And they're going to

40:42

remember you as this monster. You

40:45

don't have that control anymore. You

40:47

don't have that authority. They're in

40:50

control. They can walk out at

40:53

any time. They're calling the shots. And so

40:55

we had the meeting. And

40:58

he wanted to take control a couple

41:00

times. And they can't do that. They're

41:02

in charge. Did you

41:04

step in? Yeah, I stepped in. And

41:08

so that made them feel, you know,

41:11

empowered. They

41:13

made it through really good. They showed him

41:16

pictures of his grandchildren. And

41:18

they showed pictures of their graduation

41:20

from college. And he

41:23

had missed all these things because

41:26

of what he did. And he was

41:28

able to express sorrow,

41:31

you know, for his crime and what

41:33

he did. But

41:36

there was one time when one of them asked

41:39

him, well, why did you do

41:41

this? And then he started to

41:43

complain about his wife. And then they shut

41:46

him down. You

41:48

don't complain about mom. That still

41:50

was in him. He couldn't reach that

41:52

point of

41:54

taking ownership over his own

41:57

actions. So when you told me that

41:59

my interior... started to boil

42:01

a little bit and get angry. What

42:03

happened inside of you when you

42:05

oh yeah it boiled yeah okay who

42:09

do you think that experience benefited the

42:11

most I think it

42:13

benefited the daughters because

42:16

they were able to confront him they were able

42:18

to see him they had

42:20

closure they saw that he was no longer this

42:23

monster that he was a confused

42:26

old man who was who

42:28

had hadn't really grown a

42:31

whole lot from when he was their

42:35

dad years and

42:37

years ago. How

42:39

did it end did they touch or

42:42

exchange? Yeah they shook

42:44

hands he wanted to hug them but they

42:46

weren't ready for that so

42:48

they they shook hands on the way out yeah so

42:50

there was at least some kind of touch. Any

42:55

I love you's or? No

42:57

I love you's yeah but there was closure.

43:03

They did say that they forgave him

43:07

forgiveness isn't agreeing with the crime

43:10

or the hurt it's putting

43:12

it away if you

43:14

look at the word and in an old

43:17

dictionary you see it's a collision

43:19

of two English words the for

43:21

and then evenness and for is what

43:23

you need to hit the golf ball

43:25

and you send it away yeah and

43:28

the idea of evenness so

43:30

for evenness you

43:33

send that infraction

43:35

you send that crime

43:37

you send that ouchiness of

43:41

your heart away. I

43:44

feel that we don't really understand what

43:47

the word forgiveness means and it gets

43:49

used way too lightly and

43:51

so I really appreciate hearing how you talk

43:53

about it. It's not just oh

43:56

I forgive you and it doesn't necessarily

43:58

mean a happy ending. either.

44:00

It's not always about coming

44:02

back together and hugging. It's

44:04

about understanding something and moving

44:07

on. But it's really complicated and even

44:09

if that's not an easy thing. It

44:11

wasn't for these five brave daughters. It

44:14

wasn't an easy thing for them. But

44:16

they wanted to do that. So

44:23

hospice is a place of healing.

44:25

Not just a place of dying.

44:33

If I asked you what you did for

44:35

a living and you couldn't say chaplain, what

44:38

are like three words you would use to describe what you

44:41

do, what your job is? Spiritual

44:43

midwife, helping a person be

44:48

birthed from this life to the next. Spiritual

44:52

birth. Nice. That's

44:55

a pretty good ending. Thank you. Good

45:09

to see you. Do you

45:11

remember when we were trying to remember how long

45:13

ago it was? About three and a half weeks.

45:16

Okay. A

45:19

few weeks later, we went back to CMF's

45:22

hospice for a second visit. We

45:24

saw Michael Powell, the guy with the

45:26

brain tumor who we had met in the garden. Good

45:29

afternoon. How are you doing today?

45:31

I'm good. Let's get the mic on you. Oh,

45:39

man. He's seen better. Amazing.

45:42

He was hanging out with a

45:44

service dog who is assigned to

45:46

the hospice, a golden retriever named

45:48

Angelica. She's my little buddy. Can

45:50

you describe who Angelica is? Angelica is

45:53

a service dog that's been here a

45:55

while and she's a very loving dog

45:57

that enjoys coming

45:59

in here. and hanging out with us. What does it mean

46:01

when she licks you? That's just

46:03

the emotional feeling, like she's trying to get to

46:05

know somebody. Oh, okay, so it's a good sign.

46:07

Yes, it is. There

46:10

were two things I wanted to ask you, but last time when

46:12

we met, you

46:14

cried quite a bit. Yeah,

46:16

you taught me on a bad day. We

46:19

were strangers. I felt awkward and

46:21

it's so hard in prison because you can't comfort,

46:23

I mean, I'm not allowed to comfort anybody. I

46:25

couldn't reach out. I felt so

46:27

terrible about it, but I didn't quite know

46:30

why you were crying. I wasn't sure if

46:32

it was emotional or physiological. So

46:35

I was glad we got to talk again. Well,

46:38

I think emotionally I've changed a

46:41

little bit. It was a large tumor.

46:44

I have noticed that some

46:46

of my thinking has changed

46:50

a little bit. So I imagine

46:52

that had something to do with my emotional state at

46:54

the time. Were you irritated that

46:56

these strangers were talking when you were

46:58

crying? No, no. That's

47:01

not my personality. It's

47:05

just a weird situation. I'm

47:07

a control person. I like being in control

47:10

and I'm not in control of anything right now. I

47:15

know it's only been three and a half weeks since

47:17

we saw you, but you actually seem stronger than when

47:19

I was crying. Oh yeah, I walk every day. I

47:21

go do squats. I walk. I hang out with her

47:23

every day. We walk. Your

47:25

voice sounds stronger too. I

47:28

feel good, really. Other than not

47:31

knowing about the two, because the tumor can come back

47:34

anytime and I'm not gonna know. You

47:36

know, I'm not gonna know. Michael

47:39

was still waiting to see whether his application

47:42

for compassionate release had been granted. Again,

47:44

that's the California law that lets some people

47:46

get out of prison when a

47:48

doctor says they're at the end. And

47:51

now that Michael was feeling better, you

47:54

could sense this real urgency. Like this

47:56

was his window to live, reconnect

47:58

with his family. And he didn't

48:00

know how long that window would stay open. So

48:04

if I asked you to look to the like three months

48:06

from now, where do you think

48:08

you're going to be in three months? Hopefully

48:11

in Crescent City. I'm hoping

48:13

my health improves. Oh,

48:15

my sister said she'll come spend the weekends with me.

48:18

So what do you imagine you would do together?

48:21

Go shopping. I haven't been to a

48:24

grocery store in 20 years. I

48:26

haven't had a hamburger in 20 years. A

48:28

real hamburger in 20 years. Yeah. Well,

48:31

it's great to see you again. I honestly look so

48:34

much better than you did three and a

48:36

half weeks ago. Thank you for coming back. Erlan,

48:45

the thing that I remember about leaving that day

48:47

that was really striking was like

48:49

the contrast between the quiet

48:52

sacred space of death

48:54

and dying that actually felt

48:56

comforting in some ways and then contrasting

48:58

that with the loud kind of chaotic

49:00

scene in that long ass hallway of

49:03

the regular prison. Can

49:06

I get your visitor pass too? You

49:11

and your dad coke, you

49:13

know me well, and I know you wanted to get

49:15

back to your phone. No, my

49:17

son. I received. Okay. Well,

49:20

after spending a day in there as

49:22

beautiful as it was, it

49:24

did actually feel good to get back to

49:26

the routine of, you know, just like regular

49:28

life stuff. Indeed it do. Thank

49:41

you for calling Crescent City's come. I see

49:43

Ms. Alina. How may I help you? We're

49:45

hoping to reach Michael Powell. Yeah,

49:47

give me a sec. Thank you. Hello.

49:51

Hello, Michael. Is this Michael?

49:54

Michael. Michael Freeman. No,

49:57

it's Michael Freeman. Yes

50:01

it is. Hi Michael Freeman. A

50:03

few months later, we got on the

50:05

phone with Michael Powell. The compassionate release

50:08

came through. He'd been released from prison to

50:10

go live in a nursing home up in

50:12

Crescent City, right by the Oregon border.

50:14

And that was this cool story he told

50:17

us about when he was being transferred from

50:19

prison to the nursing home in an ambulance.

50:21

It turned out the ambulance drivers had

50:23

also done time in prison. So they

50:25

were like, hey, let's show this guy

50:27

some sights. We

50:30

stopped somewhere, the world's

50:32

biggest tree. And they let me

50:34

out of the van to step out of the van. And

50:37

that was my first step for

50:39

freedom. Not handcuffed,

50:41

not chained, not in

50:43

orange. And that meant a lot. We

50:46

were in the parking lot, in the trees.

50:50

Just beautiful. It

50:53

was fresh air, beautiful

50:55

trees, big old redwood trees. Yeah. I

50:57

don't know if it was the excitement

51:00

of, I'm free now. You

51:02

know cops drove by, I don't care. I

51:05

didn't do nothing. I don't

51:07

know if it was the

51:09

freedom or it was the air,

51:12

the beauty of it. And then

51:14

we stopped to look at the ocean. I'm

51:17

so glad you saw that. I think that's a

51:19

really special part of California. It feels like

51:21

a place that's very alive. It

51:24

feels new. Yeah. It feels

51:26

like it's, you're right. It feels like it's

51:28

new, like it's untouched. Like it's not, I

51:30

don't want to say a virgin, but a

51:33

virgin. But there's something like that. But I want to feel like

51:35

it's not corrupted. Yeah. You

51:37

know what I mean? Yeah, no, absolutely.

51:39

It was beautiful. We'll see what happens.

51:42

You know? A

51:59

couple months after we... spoke to him and

52:01

about a week before this episode came out

52:03

Michael Powell died in

52:05

the nursing home where we last spoke to him. He

52:08

died a free man. Yes he did.

52:11

Mario Rivas, the guy with the

52:13

hat and Mr. Roberts who sang

52:16

Hank Williams also died at the

52:18

CMF hospice. I'm glad

52:20

we got to spend some time with them. Indeed.

52:30

Yeah. Had

52:43

it flew in the prison and flew me.

52:46

My last day looked up and

52:48

saw a man

52:51

wheeled around the corner down

52:53

the skin and bones that's

52:56

all. I

52:58

asked the nurse where he was going. She said a

53:02

hospice down the hall.

53:05

He probably won't be in there long.

53:10

Any day we'll get the

53:12

call. That's

53:17

a bit of Bonnie Wright's song down the

53:19

hall. She wrote this song after reading about

53:22

the hospice program at the California Medical Facility

53:24

in the New York Times. That's

53:26

pretty cool. It is. Hey

53:32

everyone my name is Michelle DeThomas and right now

53:34

I'm having a little moment of gratitude that you

53:36

all took the time to visit our hospice and

53:39

share these important stories. Your

53:41

Hustle is produced by Nigel Poore, Erlon

53:43

Woods, Amy Standon, Bruce Wallace and Rassan

53:46

New York Thomas. Shabnam

53:49

Sigmund is the managing producer. The

53:51

producing team inside San Quentin includes

53:53

Doral Sadiq Davis, Tony De Trinidad

53:56

and Tom Nguyen. The inside managing

53:58

producer is Tony DeFolte. Thanks

54:02

to Acting Warden Cueva at the California

54:04

Medical Facility for welcoming the Ear Hustle

54:06

team and supporting the hospice mission

54:08

to provide dignity at the end of life

54:10

for our patients and their families. Thanks

54:13

also to this amazing woman here. My

54:16

name is Lieutenant Priscilla Gonzalez. I'm

54:18

the administrative assistant and public information

54:21

officer for the California Medical Facility

54:23

and I approve this episode. Big

54:27

thanks to Acting Warden Andis and Lieutenant Barry

54:30

at St. Quentin and Acting Warden Williams,

54:32

Associate Warden Lewis and Lieutenant Newborn at

54:34

the California Institution for Women for their

54:36

ongoing support of the show. This

54:40

episode was made possible by The

54:42

Just Trust, working to amplify the

54:44

voices, vision and power of communities

54:46

that are transforming the justice system.

54:49

For more information about this episode, check out

54:51

the show notes on Ear Hustle's website,

54:54

earhustlesque.com. You can

54:56

also find out more about the show

54:59

on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube at EarHustleSQ.

55:04

Erlon Woods, Sound Design and

55:06

Engineers the Show with help from

55:09

Fernando Arruda and Harry Colhane.

55:12

This episode features music from

55:14

Rashid Zinneman, Fernando Arruda, Antoine

55:16

Williams and me, Erlon Woods.

55:19

Want more Ear Hustle? Subscribe to Ear

55:21

Hustle Plus. We've

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55:34

Subscribe at earhustlesq.com or

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55:43

this issue, I'm going to be talking about

55:45

a little photo project I'm doing on the

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side. There's actually a connection to

55:50

this episode, but you're going to have to read

55:52

it to find out. You got

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on you, Erlon. Weeee.

55:58

Subscribe at earhustlesq.com. earhustlesq.com newsletter

56:00

and while you're at it

56:03

leave us a review on

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help to the show and we appreciate you for

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it. Earhustle is

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a proud member of Radiotopia

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56:19

Discover audio with vision at

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Radiotopia.fm. I'm

56:24

Nigel Poore. I'm Erlon Woods.

56:26

Thanks for listening. Here's

56:42

your Jasmine. Your Jasmine right here. And

56:46

that has a little smile too. This

56:48

is your Philadelphia's Louisie right

56:50

here. And that has like

56:52

a four-leaf clover when it does flower and

56:54

flower earlier and it's a white. Nigel,

57:02

earhustle listeners are the

57:04

best. They really are. You're always

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in touch letting us know what you think

57:09

about episodes and sharing the love. Yep.

57:11

It's really a two-way conversation, a

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relationship. Indeed it is. And if

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In addition to ad-free episodes of

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57:32

off the cuff conversations. We

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have a monthly AMA, which is

57:37

Ask Me Anything episode where you

57:39

and I answer questions sent in

57:41

by subscribers. And seriously, no

57:43

question is too random or

57:46

wacky. Questions like, what's our favorite

57:48

book? Do we hang

57:50

out in between seasons? What's the

57:52

most technically challenging Earhustle episode ever?

57:55

Okay, Erlon, yeah, those are good questions, but

57:57

like we said above, I'd like some back

57:59

earlones. We've

58:01

also started doing episode commentary where you

58:03

and I listen to a classic ear

58:06

hustle episode and talk about how it

58:08

came together, hard decisions made along the

58:10

way and where the people in the

58:12

episodes are now. Yeah, we did that

58:14

for Silly and it was a lot of fun so

58:16

we're definitely going to do more. And Erlon, tell them

58:18

about that idea you're working on. Sure. I've

58:21

been sitting down with some of our formerly

58:23

incarcerated friends who have gotten out and are

58:25

doing well. Just basically showing how

58:27

they went from one situation to a better

58:29

situation if that makes sense. Those would start

58:32

dropping in the Ear Hustle Plus feed tool.

58:34

Listeners, we want you in this conversation.

58:37

Find out more about Ear

58:39

Hustle Plus at earhustlesq.com/plus or

58:42

subscribe right now in the

58:44

Apple Podcast Player app.

58:46

That's earhustlesq.com/plus or right

58:48

in the Apple Podcast

58:51

Player. So what is

58:53

your favorite book, Erlon? Sorry, Nudge. You

58:55

gotta subscribe for that. Really? Yes.

58:58

Radio, tell me how.