0:04

Welcome to

0:04

Season Eight of Edtech Insiders

0:07

where we speak to educators,

0:07

founders, investors, thought

0:11

leaders and the industry experts

0:11

who are shaping the global

0:15

education technology industry.

0:15

Every week we bring you the week

0:19

in edtech. important updates

0:19

from the Edtech field, including

0:23

news about core technologies and

0:23

issues we know will influence

0:27

the sector like artificial

0:27

intelligence, extended reality,

0:31

education, politics, and more.

0:31

We also conduct in depth

0:34

interviews with a wide variety

0:34

of Edtech thought leaders and

0:38

bring you insights and

0:38

conversations from edtech

0:42

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check out the EdTech insiders

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0:53

being part of the Edtech

0:53

insiders community enjoy the

0:57

show. Alejandro Gibes de Gac is

0:57

the founder and CEO of

1:00

Springboard collective and the

1:00

recent ed tech startup Paloma

1:04

when Alejandro Gibes de Gac was

1:04

seven his family immigrated to

1:08

the US seeking educational

1:08

opportunities for their

1:12

children. His parents tireless

1:12

efforts enabled him and his

1:15

sister to overcome their

1:15

circumstances and pursue their

1:19

dreams. Alejandro had published

1:19

two books by 14 and was admitted

1:23

to Harvard by 16. After

1:23

graduating from college, I'll

1:27

100 join Teach for America and

1:27

became a first grade teacher in

1:31

Philadelphia. There he became

1:31

frustrated that the school

1:34

system treats marginalized

1:34

parents as liabilities rather

1:38

than as assets. Alejandro

1:38

founded Springboard

1:41

Collaborative more than a decade

1:41

ago to close the literacy gap by

1:45

bridging the gap between home

1:45

and school, Springboard runs out

1:49

of school time programs that

1:49

help teachers and parents team

1:53

up to improve reading outcomes

1:53

for over 35,000 students across

1:57

the country. While continuing to

1:57

lead springboard. Alejandro

2:01

recently co founded the ed tech

2:01

startup Paloma. Paloma harnesses

2:06

AI to unleash parents untapped

2:06

teaching potential. Their mobile

2:10

web app helps marginalized

2:10

families build and sustain a

2:13

habit 15 daily minutes of short

2:13

bursts tutoring at home. Imagine

2:17

parents sitting with their kids

2:17

and engaging in curriculum

2:21

aligned instruction every night.

2:21

By the time students enter

2:25

middle school families that do

2:25

their daily 15 thriller mentary

2:29

school will have given their

2:29

kids the equivalent of an entire

2:33

extra year of school. All the

2:33

hundreds career has been guided

2:37

by a singular objective to close

2:37

the opportunity gap by making

2:41

parent teacher collaboration,

2:41

standard practice in American

2:45

education. Alejandro Gibes de

2:45

Gac Welcome to EdTech Insiders.

2:50

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited for our

2:51

conversation.

2:53

I am to you

2:53

know you are one of the most

2:55

dynamic education entrepreneurs

2:55

that I have met in a long time.

2:59

And that's saying a lot because

2:59

I meet a lot of them in this

3:01

role. You have such an

3:01

interesting story. And you've

3:04

already done such interesting

3:04

work in education. I'm really

3:07

excited to talk about your new

3:07

venture Paloma. But you know,

3:11

before we start, can you give

3:11

our listeners who may not be

3:14

familiar with you a little bit

3:14

of a overview of what brought

3:18

you into the EdTech field and

3:18

what brought you into the

3:20

entrepreneurship field? What

3:20

drives you on a daily basis?

3:24

Yeah, like appreciate the kind words for me like my purpose on this

3:26

earth is to equip parents to

3:30

accelerate their children's

3:30

learning. And for me that is

3:33

rooted in my personal

3:33

experience, my family immigrated

3:36

to the US seeking better

3:36

educational opportunities for

3:39

their kids like so many

3:39

immigrants do. It did not take

3:42

long in Carrollton, Georgia for

3:42

my parents to realize that

3:45

school serving poor families

3:45

like ours, don't often enough

3:49

live up to America's Promise. So

3:49

my parents were the real reason

3:53

my sister and I were able to

3:53

overcome the odds, overcome my

3:56

circumstances and pursue our own

3:56

dreams. And they saw a fuller

4:00

version of our potential than

4:00

maybe the school system did. And

4:04

they helped us realize that potential by setting and achieving one goal after the

4:05

next, but the school system

4:09

never saw the value my parents

4:09

brought to the table and my

4:13

teachers didn't really know what

4:13

to do with them right. At best.

4:16

My parents and teachers were

4:16

working in isolation to support

4:18

my sister and me. And at worst,

4:18

they kind of butted heads every

4:21

so often. My sister went to

4:21

Columbia, I went to Harvard

4:24

between us we started four

4:24

organizations that helped

4:27

families support. Learning at

4:27

home, it's hard to connect the

4:30

dots should always taught me

4:30

that my parents were like the

4:33

reason we've been able to do

4:33

that. And yet the school system

4:35

could have left that entirely on

4:35

the table. So when I graduated

4:38

from college, I joined Teach for

4:38

America, I became a first grade

4:41

teacher in a Puerto Rican

4:41

neighborhood in Philly. I could

4:43

see myself and my students, I

4:43

could see my parents in theirs.

4:46

And again, I felt frustrated

4:46

that my school in our system was

4:50

approaching parents as

4:50

liabilities rather than as

4:53

assets, talking about a kid's

4:53

home life as a risk to mitigate

4:57

rather than a resource to

4:57

cultivate I knew from my own

5:01

experience that we were getting

5:01

that wrong and leaving a lot of

5:04

value on the table. And then I

5:04

dug into the research showing

5:06

that parental involvement in

5:06

their children's learning is the

5:09

most powerful predictor of

5:09

student's academic success and

5:12

families. Not schools are the

5:12

primary determinants of kid's

5:15

life and learning outcomes. And

5:15

yet, it felt like the education

5:18

sector wasn't doing a whole lot

5:18

about that we were so fixated on

5:22

improving classroom instruction

5:22

at the margins. And we should do

5:26

that we should do right by kids

5:26

in the classroom. And kids spend

5:29

13% of their waking hours inside

5:29

of a classroom, it felt like we

5:34

were all just trying to squeeze

5:34

so much juice from this

5:36

relatively small wedge. And no

5:36

one was just in the rest of the

5:39

orange. That was the journey

5:39

that I started going down. What

5:43

would it look like to equip

5:43

families to support learning at

5:46

home so that kids can capture

5:46

kind of instructional value from

5:48

the entirety of their time that

5:48

continuum of home and school.

5:53

And that's my belief, my belief

5:53

is that parents love for their

5:56

kids is the single greatest and

5:56

the most underutilized, natural

6:01

resource in education. And

6:01

unless and until we equip

6:05

marginalized families to support

6:05

their children's learning at

6:07

home, inequities are going to

6:07

persist as they have for decade

6:12

after decade, after decade.

6:12

Yeah,

6:15

it strikes me

6:15

listening to your insights,

6:17

really, I think, fascinating,

6:17

and really deep insights about

6:20

the relationship between home

6:20

learning and parents and

6:23

teachers, that, you know, the

6:23

education system often has some

6:27

really negative views about what

6:27

happens at home, they often you

6:30

see it as the sort of excuse for

6:30

why a student might not be doing

6:34

well in school, oh, they're

6:34

having problems at home, their

6:36

parents are disengaged, and they

6:36

sort of like, you know, see it

6:39

that way from the school's

6:39

perspective in some cases, or

6:43

they see it as you know, they

6:43

don't want to get in trouble

6:45

with the parents, right? They

6:45

don't want parents knocking on

6:47

the door and asking about grades

6:47

or, you know, they sort of want

6:51

to avoid deep engagement. And a

6:51

both of those attitudes make no

6:55

sense if you really think about

6:55

them, even though they're very

6:57

common. I think you're turning

6:57

that around and saying the

7:01

family is one of the most

7:01

important research based

7:03

influences on a child's learning

7:03

just changes the whole

7:06

perspective, parents and

7:06

families are a positive

7:09

influence. Even marginalized

7:09

families who are often get, you

7:12

know, blamed for things actually

7:12

can have incredibly positive

7:15

impact on their students in an

7:15

educational way. So I want to

7:19

jump in to Springboard

7:19

Collaborative and Paloma. But

7:22

I'd love to hear your response

7:22

to that, like, Why do you think

7:24

the perception from within the

7:24

schools of families sometimes is

7:27

so negative? Oh,

7:29

my goodness, how long do you have this decision? I think there's a

7:31

lot of reasons many of which you

7:35

can trace back to systemic

7:35

racism, that, that people look

7:38

at a black and brown parent, and

7:38

they don't see their teaching

7:40

potential. And that's like a

7:40

whole other conversation for

7:43

another day. But people are

7:43

quick to overlook the value that

7:47

families can bring to the table.

7:47

And like sometimes with the best

7:50

of intentions, people know that

7:50

marginalized families have a lot

7:53

of constraints in their lives,

7:53

on their time on their

7:56

resources. And that can make it

7:56

hard. However, the answer isn't

8:01

to just write families off.

8:01

Right. And no one's benefited

8:03

from low expectations. The

8:03

answer is to support families

8:07

when it comes to educating kids,

8:07

there's, there's no going around

8:09

parents, you got to work with

8:09

them, you got to work through

8:12

them. And if you don't, well,

8:12

then you'll see exactly what's

8:14

played out, like how many trillions of dollars that we invested in classroom

8:16

intervention and and what do we

8:18

have to show for it at a certain

8:18

point, you've got to try

8:20

something, something different.

8:20

And when I look at families,

8:23

like my gosh, just the will and

8:23

skill is there, right in terms

8:28

of the will regardless of

8:28

financial circumstances, parents

8:31

love their kids and want the

8:31

best for them. And that's like

8:35

an evolutionary drive, right?

8:35

That's been forged over 6

8:38

million years, parents want the

8:38

best for their offspring, that

8:41

we leave that like renewable

8:41

natural resource on the table is

8:46

mind boggling to me. No one's

8:46

more motivated, intrinsically

8:49

motivated to help their kids

8:49

learn. And parents are willing

8:52

and able to teach for free. That's how motivated they are like for a school district

8:53

that's got scarce resources and

8:56

limited teacher bandwidth. Like,

8:56

that's not something you can

8:58

afford to leave on the table.

8:58

And then families also have the

9:01

skill. There was a research

9:01

study that came out of our

9:03

friends at Oakland reach showing

9:03

that marginalized parents are as

9:07

effective as teachers in

9:07

tutoring kids, they're just as

9:11

good as anyone else in tutoring

9:11

students, if you equip them with

9:14

the right resources and

9:14

strategies to do that, and it

9:18

doesn't have to take a lot of

9:18

time either. There was a meta

9:21

analysis showing that 15 minutes

9:21

a day is the magic number of

9:23

like learning practice at home

9:23

to help kids sustain academic

9:27

gains, families can make that

9:27

happen. The hard part is helping

9:31

people to build a habit. Just

9:31

like it's hard to build a habit

9:33

around anything, whether it's

9:33

supporting your kids learning or

9:35

like going to the gym or

9:35

quitting smoking or whatever

9:38

else. But a lot is known about

9:38

how to help people turn an

9:42

intention into a practice and

9:42

turn a practice into a habit.

9:45

And technology is particularly

9:45

well positioned to facilitate in

9:48

that process, so it's less

9:48

complicated than it may seem.

9:52

And once you unleash parents

9:52

teaching potential, then you

9:56

don't put them back in the box like a student learning pretty quickly and dramatically

9:58

accelerates some

10:00

phenomenal points. And I think, you know, some of the things we're saying

10:02

as soon as you hear them are so

10:05

you know, they seem obvious in

10:05

retrospect, but they're very

10:08

hard to sort of see in the

10:08

context and sort of the muddy

10:11

nature of all the relationships

10:11

between families and schools,

10:14

like you mentioned, of course, parents are driven to do the best for their children, and to

10:16

the extent of willing to teach

10:19

for free and able to teach with

10:19

supports. And the fact you know,

10:24

that I think I'm sure a lot of

10:24

people listening to this

10:26

podcast, have not heard that

10:26

research that, you know, 15

10:29

minutes, a day of teaching at

10:29

home can make a big difference.

10:32

So all of these are these

10:32

abstract facts, but you have

10:35

actually put these into action

10:35

in some really interesting ways.

10:39

So first off, you are the

10:39

founder of Springboard

10:41

Collaborative, which has been

10:41

working for years to improve

10:44

reading outcomes by engaging

10:44

parents in the learning process

10:48

Exactly. As you've mentioned,

10:48

can you tell us about the unique

10:51

approach that Springboard has

10:51

taken how it's used some of the

10:54

research that you have just

10:54

cited and some of the outcomes

10:58

that you've seen for the

10:58

districts and schools that are

11:01

using springboard?

11:02

Yes, I mean, over the last 12 years, we've been focusing a

11:04

springboard on cracking the code

11:07

on how do you equip marginalized

11:07

families to accelerate their

11:10

kids learning at home, and we've

11:10

codified it into a methodology

11:14

that we've kind of honed and

11:14

iterated on for a long while. We

11:17

call that method family educator

11:17

learning accelerators are feel

11:21

as for sure, there are five to

11:21

10 week cycles during which

11:24

parents and teachers team up and

11:24

help kids reach a learning goal.

11:28

In the beginning of that cycle,

11:28

parents and teachers build a bit

11:30

of relational trust and set a

11:30

goal. Then over that five to 10

11:33

week stretch, parents and

11:33

teachers work together to

11:36

support learning across the

11:36

continuum of home and school.

11:39

One of the lessons that we learned the hard way is that if you paint the finish line too

11:41

far away, it's really hard to motivate people to build a new

11:43

habit and try something

11:45

different. Then at the end of

11:45

all that practice time you

11:48

measure progress, and you

11:48

celebrate and that's more than

11:50

just a lovely moment, like

11:50

punctuating the experience with

11:53

a quick win is what crystallizes

11:53

lasting habits, both for

11:57

teachers who realize like, Oh,

11:57

my goodness, parents are the

12:00

tutors hiding in plain sight.

12:00

They're the CO teachers I never

12:02

knew I had this job is less

12:02

lonely and less daunting than

12:05

I've experienced it to be.

12:05

Teaching can be a team sport, I

12:08

run my leg of the race during

12:08

the school day, and then hand

12:10

instructional baton to families

12:10

and they consistently run their

12:13

leg of the race at home, it's a

12:13

better way. And then for

12:16

families punctuating the

12:16

experience with a quick win,

12:19

helps them realize, like I just

12:19

said and achieved a goal with my

12:22

kid. I'd like to do that again,

12:22

and again and again and again.

12:25

And that helps the habit to

12:25

persist over the long run. And

12:28

ultimately, the small wins lead

12:28

to the big wins. Springboard

12:32

uses that methodology in the

12:32

course of out of school time

12:35

programs. It's a service that

12:35

helps parents and teachers work

12:38

together to accelerate early

12:38

literacy outcomes in particular,

12:41

serving 35,000 Kids in Title One

12:41

districts around the country.

12:44

And the beating heart of that

12:44

service is a weekly workshop

12:48

where parents come in learn how

12:48

to teach reading at home. Turns

12:51

out they're quite capable at it.

12:51

And once you unlock that

12:54

instructional time at home,

12:54

student learning accelerates

12:56

pretty quickly. Inside of one

12:56

district, we get 88% of parents

13:00

to attend that weekly workshop.

13:00

For every workshop that parents

13:03

go to, they delivered 25 hours

13:03

of one on one instructional time

13:07

at home. That's the force

13:07

multiplier. That's the

13:09

difference maker kids average

13:09

three to six months of reading

13:12

growth in just a short five to

13:12

10 week program, which closes

13:16

the gap to grade level by on

13:16

average 43% that you can make

13:20

such a dent in what's been a

13:20

quite an intractable problem, in

13:24

so short a period of time by

13:24

activating families to speaks to

13:28

the enormity of the potential

13:28

that otherwise lies dormant in

13:33

almost every school and district

13:33

in the country. The

13:36

Massachusetts Department of

13:36

Education recently did an

13:38

external evaluation where they

13:38

looked across all of their

13:41

literacy interventions in the

13:41

state. And they found that

13:44

Springboard is in their words,

13:44

by far the most cost effective

13:48

tutoring model. And the reason

13:48

that's the case is what I

13:50

mentioned already about families

13:50

like deep well of intrinsic

13:53

motivation. The secret sauce is

13:53

upskilling parents to be at home

13:57

tutors for their kids in ways

13:57

that like privileged parents

14:00

already are right. And once you

14:00

make that possible, and

14:04

routinize it for families with

14:04

less privilege, the outcomes are

14:08

pretty well they speak for

14:08

themselves.

14:10

It's truly

14:10

amazing. And you know, I love

14:12

that phrase to coach teachers

14:12

they never knew they had right.

14:15

The teachers get don't realize

14:15

that parents can be incredibly

14:20

important assets for the

14:20

students learning. You mentioned

14:23

a few key outcome numbers in

14:23

there. And you mentioned them

14:27

pretty quickly. But they're so

14:27

impressive and so interesting

14:30

that I want to just take a

14:30

second to dissect them. So first

14:33

off, you mentioned 88 in

14:33

marginalized Title One

14:36

communities 88% of parents

14:36

engaged in the springboard

14:40

program. anybody listening to

14:40

this, who has tried to do parent

14:43

engagement, will recognize that

14:43

as a unbelievably high

14:47

percentage of parents getting

14:47

involved in the school

14:51

environment. Can you tell us a

14:51

little bit about how you got to

14:54

that level of engagement and

14:54

what you attributed to?

14:58

Yeah, I mean, I think it speaks to how And up demand, like there's a

15:00

deep desire and most of the

15:03

families we work with have

15:03

learned the hard way, just how

15:06

important it is for their kid to

15:06

have a better educational

15:08

experience than they did. You

15:08

know, it's funny, sometimes

15:11

marginalized families are the

15:11

folks that people tend to expect

15:14

the least of. And yet, when I do

15:14

user research, and I talked to

15:18

the families with and without

15:18

privilege, I find the opposite I

15:20

find families with privilege

15:20

have the luxury of like, not

15:24

wanting to, like do anything

15:24

extra with their kids, because

15:27

they know that their kids are

15:27

gonna be fine, just fine, no

15:29

matter what. And so who needs an

15:29

extra thing to keep track of?

15:32

Marginalized families don't have

15:32

that luxury, right? They don't

15:35

know it's not guaranteed that

15:35

their child is going to be okay.

15:38

And therefore, there's a lot

15:38

more hunger to like, no, no,

15:41

give me all that you got. I want

15:41

to know, how can I help this

15:44

matters? I know what it is to

15:44

live life in poverty, I know

15:48

what happens if you don't

15:48

navigate your educational

15:50

experience in a way that I want

15:50

my kid to have a different

15:54

experience. And there's a lot of

15:54

power in that desire. Learning

15:57

heroes did a national survey

15:57

finding that marginalized

16:00

parents say personalized

16:00

guidance to support learning at

16:03

home is their biggest unmet

16:03

need. So then that 8% is a

16:07

testament to the fact that

16:07

there's a huge amount of demand,

16:10

and most of which is unseen. And

16:10

then the challenge is like, how

16:13

do you activate that? Right? The

16:13

shortest conversion that that I

16:17

can share is that it really

16:17

matters, that the experience

16:20

launch with a bit of relational

16:20

trust building. And of course,

16:23

like, you know, trust ideally,

16:23

is something that's cultivated

16:25

over a very long period of time.

16:25

But we found that even five

16:29

minutes of unintentional trust

16:29

building conversation is

16:32

incredibly predictive of whether

16:32

or not a family shows up at that

16:36

initial workshop doesn't have to

16:36

take a lot of time. But you do

16:40

need to be able to level with

16:40

the family, you and I have a

16:43

goal in common, we both want

16:43

your kid to be successful, we

16:46

need each other in order to

16:46

reach that goal. As a teacher,

16:48

I've got instructional strategies. I've got some expertise there. But I've got 25

16:50

Plus kids in front of me, I

16:55

can't give each kid every day

16:55

what I know they need, I need

16:58

you, you as a parent, you're the

16:58

expert on your own kid, nobody

17:01

knows him better than you do.

17:01

And you've got the ability to

17:04

engage with them in this one on

17:04

one or one on few setting that I

17:08

just don't get in the classroom.

17:08

So let's commit to each other,

17:11

right? If I commit to sharing

17:11

resources and strategies with

17:13

you, will you commit to using

17:13

those at home and sharing your

17:16

observations back with me, you

17:16

end with a commitment doesn't

17:20

take long, but it does get you a

17:20

much higher degree of visible

17:26

engagement than you might have

17:26

previously seen. Yeah, that

17:29

quick ability

17:29

to build relational trust, the

17:32

mutual empathy, the shared goals

17:32

you're mentioning, and the sort

17:36

of commitment, the pre

17:36

commitment to really work

17:38

together, as well as that, as

17:38

you mentioned, these, you know,

17:40

five to 10 week cycle. So it's

17:40

not that this is, you know, you

17:43

do this on the first day of

17:43

school. And at the end of the

17:46

year of school, you check in on

17:46

how well it went is these

17:48

shorter cycles all seem to

17:48

contribute to these incredible

17:51

numbers. There's one more number

17:51

I want to dissect really fast,

17:54

which is the 25 hours. So you

17:54

mentioned that 15 minutes of

17:58

time from a parent to a student

17:58

or to multiple students at home,

18:02

is really all that's needed to

18:02

make a difference. And then you

18:05

also mentioned that 25

18:05

additional instructional hours

18:09

is the result of Springboard

18:09

Collaborative, tell us how that

18:12

time comes together and how you

18:12

actually get parents to do 25

18:16

hours. It sounds like a lot, but

18:16

it actually isn't that much if

18:19

you break it into small chunks.

18:20

Totally.

18:20

That's the beauty of building

18:22

like a regular habit that any

18:22

given day, it doesn't feel

18:26

overwhelming. That's why

18:26

families are latching on to it.

18:28

But it accumulates like

18:28

snowflakes in a lizard it quite

18:32

quickly, you know, 15 minutes a

18:32

day, when you play that out over

18:35

the course of a school year, if

18:35

you help, even just half of the

18:38

families in a classroom to build

18:38

that habit, you unlock an extra

18:42

1000 hours of one on one

18:42

instructional time, over the

18:44

course of a school year,

18:44

teachers only get 1000 hours

18:47

with their students in the course of the school year, it's a massive amount of leverage.

18:49

And nobody needs leverage more

18:52

than teachers these days. And if

18:52

you play that out even further,

18:55

and this is something that we're excited about in the way that we're building out the

18:57

technology, if you can help a

18:59

family build that daily 15 habit

18:59

in elementary school, by the

19:04

time they send their kid to middle school, they'll have given them their kid the

19:06

equivalent of an entire extra

19:08

school year, you can imagine the

19:08

cost of trying to replicate that

19:13

amount of instructional time.

19:13

Any other way you can extend the

19:16

school day, you can extend the

19:16

school year, you can do Saturday

19:18

school, you can hire tutors, you

19:18

can do whatever you want to

19:21

increase instructional time. But

19:21

there is no more cost effective

19:24

way to do that. Not to mention

19:24

scalable or culturally

19:28

responsive or loving way and to

19:28

do that, then leverage families

19:33

amazing,

19:33

culturally responsive, loving,

19:36

you know, you mentioned Saturday

19:36

school and there are families

19:39

who put a lot of additional

19:39

instructional time into their

19:42

students in a variety of ways.

19:42

But yes, Saturday school is not

19:45

always a student's favorite way

19:45

to do it. I think that you know,

19:49

that those love and the cultural

19:49

responsive and the fact that it

19:51

builds an even deeper relationship between parents and students, all incredibly

19:53

powerful. So okay, amazing

19:57

stuff. Your new startup pillow

19:57

La really is an ed tech startup.

20:02

It's much more technology driven

20:02

and actually utilizes AI to take

20:07

some of these learnings you've

20:07

gotten with springboard to

20:09

empower parents to support their

20:09

children's learning. So you've

20:13

learned over 12 years how to

20:13

make this work. So now you're

20:16

putting it into a product in

20:16

Paloma, tell us how Paluma works

20:20

and what you're planning to do with it.

20:23

Yeah, I'm super excited. Like the idea is a commute to steal the

20:24

product from the service. In

20:27

order to scale impact to new

20:27

orders of magnitude, there's

20:31

always gonna be a need for the

20:31

service and out of school time

20:34

programs aren't gonna be able to

20:34

reach every kid within a

20:37

district. So the question I

20:37

started to ask myself was, what

20:40

would it take to equip every

20:40

family in a district to

20:43

accelerate their children's

20:43

learning to do that in reading

20:46

and math for the broader set of

20:46

grade levels? What would it take

20:49

to do that? And the answer

20:49

includes, but isn't limited to

20:52

tech, like there will be a need

20:52

for policy change. I don't know

20:54

if that's ours to do. But I'm

20:54

not pretending that tech is the

20:58

kind of answer to all of the

20:58

challenges ahead. But it's a

21:02

critical piece of the puzzle,

21:02

right, there's an opportunity to

21:04

bring what we've learned about

21:04

how to equip families to support

21:07

learning at home to bring that

21:07

to a pretty transformative

21:10

scale. So that's what we are

21:10

building via below mob llama

21:14

harnesses AI to unleash parents

21:14

untapped teaching potential. And

21:17

the product is a mobile web app

21:17

that helps families build and

21:21

sustain a habit 15 daily minutes

21:21

of short, burst tutoring at

21:25

home. So imagine parents sitting

21:25

with their kids every night and

21:29

engaging in a rigorous,

21:29

curriculum aligned and joyful

21:33

learning practice, day in and

21:33

day out. And as we talked about

21:36

those daily 15 minutes, unlock

21:36

an enormous amount of

21:39

instructional time relatively

21:39

quickly, that accelerates

21:42

student learning. I wish I could

21:42

do a demo on a podcast, you can

21:45

check out our website, lemon

21:45

learning.com, and get one. But I

21:48

can talk more about what the

21:48

tool looks like. And I can also

21:51

talk more about like, what the

21:51

results that we've seen so far

21:54

are because there's a lot that

21:54

you can lose in translation from

21:57

a service to a technology. And

21:57

so we've been super intentional

22:00

about figuring out how to let

22:00

the tech do what it does best so

22:04

that the people can do what they

22:04

do best. We

22:07

can link to a

22:07

video or you know, a YouTube or

22:10

a loom video from the notes in

22:10

this podcast if people want to

22:13

see Paloma in action that way,

22:13

and yes, definitely go to

22:17

palummo learning.com. That's

22:17

correct. Yes, definitely.

22:21

Because it really is a wild

22:21

approach. I mean, it's a product

22:25

really designed to do behavior

22:25

change. And you know, when you

22:28

mentioned this 15 minutes a day,

22:28

sort of goal, it reminds me so

22:31

much of when Fitbit first came

22:31

out, and they sort of helped

22:36

take something that was research

22:36

driven, which is the you know,

22:38

10,000 steps a day, it's about

22:38

five miles, I think exactly a

22:41

day is the sort of amount that

22:41

will keep you healthy. That's

22:45

the you know, idea. And by just

22:45

they sort of wrap their whole

22:49

product around 10,000 steps a

22:49

day, right? Like, how can you

22:52

actually use technology to

22:52

provide the kind of feedback so

22:55

that people can learn to do

22:55

their 10,000 steps a day and

22:58

stay healthier? And you're

22:58

thinking around? How can we use

23:01

an app to help parents engage

23:01

with 15 minutes a day, as well

23:05

as make communication between

23:05

parents and teachers and build

23:08

that sort of teamwork that

23:08

you've been talking about is

23:11

such a powerful method, I just

23:11

think it's very easy to get your

23:15

head around, which matters. And

23:15

then when you actually get into

23:18

the product, you know, the

23:18

product can actually make it

23:20

happen and make you really

23:20

understand how to work it. So

23:23

tell us a little bit more about

23:23

how Palumbo works, you know,

23:26

what are the touch points that

23:26

it uses to connect teachers and

23:30

parents and to sort of remind

23:30

parents to do these 15 minutes

23:33

and to build that habit?

23:34

Yeah, great question. So I'm going to start with the parent

23:35

experience, because that's like the beating heart of it and the

23:37

day in and day out core. And

23:40

then we'll talk about how

23:40

teachers fit into the equation

23:42

and kind of the relationship

23:42

between the two. So starting

23:45

with the parent experience at a

23:45

pre selected time, families get

23:49

a text message each day, linking

23:49

them to their 15 minute tutoring

23:53

session. It's a web app, no

23:53

download, no login, a password,

23:56

you click the thing, you're immediately immersed in your experience and families are

23:58

engaging in that and whatever

24:00

home language is comfortable to

24:00

them. The routine that we get

24:04

them in in order to facilitate

24:04

the habit is that on Mondays

24:07

families get a short video

24:07

breaking down their teacher

24:10

selected focus area into a bite

24:10

size skill of the week, that

24:14

could be as concrete as like a

24:14

particular letter sound that

24:17

y'all are really going to focus

24:17

on this week. And then pull them

24:19

up guides the family through

24:19

short tutoring session learning

24:22

game activity. That's Monday,

24:22

Tuesdays and Thursdays, families

24:26

get additional learning games or

24:26

activities that help them deepen

24:29

their child's proficiency with

24:29

that skill of the week. And then

24:33

when they finish Tuesday and

24:33

Thursday plan will ask the

24:35

family what do you want

24:35

tomorrow's content to be about

24:38

and the family will answer.

24:38

Whatever is bringing their child

24:41

joy and curiosity and

24:41

imagination. So you can imagine

24:46

the things that come up, you

24:46

know, elementary schoolers, it's

24:49

Barbie, it's my cousin's coming

24:49

over for pizza last night. It's

24:53

winning the basketball tournament this weekend, you know, going to pop ups house and

24:55

making pie and then we're able

24:58

to use AI to Jen Rate decodable

24:58

books and math story problems

25:03

that are aligned with kids

25:03

particular learning needs, but

25:06

they're about their personal

25:06

interests. And we render kids as

25:11

protagonists in their own

25:11

stories and math problems

25:14

visually, in a way that feels

25:14

demographically authentic to

25:18

them. Embedded within that

25:18

content are coaching tips for

25:21

parents so that they know how to

25:21

be the best possible teacher in

25:25

that session. You know, things

25:25

like we highlighted all the

25:28

words with this week's letter

25:28

sound, have Sanaya reread those

25:31

words, you know, sounding out each letter and blending it together, the kind of

25:33

scaffolding that helps the

25:35

family, not just, you know,

25:35

engaging in the time, but also

25:40

make it the most fruitful and

25:40

kind of rigorous, 15 minutes

25:43

that they possibly could,

25:43

without compromising on the joy.

25:47

In the experience, I think there can be this kind of false dichotomy between rigor and joy,

25:49

which is it? Is it science of

25:52

reading, or is it like fun time,

25:52

and you can do both. And AI

25:56

enables the kind of

25:56

personalization that enables you

25:59

to do both. That's the family

25:59

side, I can talk more about,

26:03

like how the teacher fits into

26:03

the equation, too. But I'll

26:05

pause there,

26:06

I would love

26:06

to hear that I just, you know,

26:08

it's such an interesting model.

26:08

And it really it strikes me is,

26:11

you know, you're facilitating,

26:11

like you mentioned, a teacher

26:14

selected skill of the week,

26:14

right, that the teachers are

26:17

actually helping, you're

26:17

facilitating communication

26:20

between what's happened in the

26:20

classroom with what's happening

26:23

at home, which is, you know,

26:23

seems like it should be

26:26

something that happens a lot, it

26:26

actually is not happen smoothly,

26:29

nearly as much as you would

26:29

think in schools, as any parent

26:32

or teacher would say. So that

26:32

already is a great start. And

26:35

then the idea of these

26:35

resources, that sort of

26:37

accelerate parent's ability to

26:37

use that short period, that 15

26:40

minutes in a really

26:40

instructionally sound way. So

26:43

it's sort of it facilitates

26:43

communication, it trains parents

26:46

and how to optimize their time.

26:46

And then the AI is sort of the

26:49

cherry on top developing

26:49

customized personalized interest

26:52

based content well for the

26:52

families so that you know, as

26:55

they work together, they can do

26:55

something that is of actual

26:58

interest. That's something that

26:58

can spark conversation that's

27:01

relevant. It's a really

27:01

brilliant combination of factors

27:04

that I think overcome a lot of

27:04

psychological barriers to this

27:07

kind of work. So I'm a fan. It's

27:07

really exciting to hear. But

27:10

yes, I'd love to hear more about

27:10

the teacher side, please.

27:13

The AI does what it does best, which is content generation and

27:15

personalization, so that people

27:18

can do what they do best, which

27:18

is to connect and collaborate.

27:20

And the latter part, I think

27:20

it's forgotten way too much the

27:24

content is table stakes. But

27:24

it's not where the value is not

27:27

where the magic is, in order to

27:27

facilitate that relational

27:29

experience. We did some user

27:29

research at the outset and

27:32

wondered, well, is our world

27:32

teachers really busy? Is there a

27:34

world in which we can go

27:34

directly to families and just

27:37

equip them with resources and

27:37

kind of skip the middle step?

27:40

And the answer from families was

27:40

very clearly like, if it ain't

27:43

coming from the teacher, I'm not

27:43

paying attention to it. I want

27:45

to hear about my kids health

27:45

from our doctor, I want to care

27:48

about my kids learning from the

27:48

teacher. And I think too many

27:52

entities will kind of

27:52

disintermediate the educator and

27:55

the importance of that

27:55

relationship and just start like

27:57

beaming content to families,

27:57

right? You got a kindergartener

28:01

don't forget to count bananas at

28:01

the grocery store. And as a

28:03

parent, you're like, How'd you

28:03

get my phone number? Who are you

28:07

counting bananas at the grocery

28:07

store and like, and then a daily

28:10

reminder of like, something you

28:10

didn't do that makes you feel

28:13

bad, the relationship is

28:13

everything. And so then the

28:16

challenge became like, Well, how

28:16

do you enable teachers to

28:20

partner with families in a way

28:20

that does not add a single thing

28:23

to their plate, because as soon

28:23

as it does, and then the game is

28:26

over, before it even started,

28:26

teachers are, are spread super

28:29

thin, right? We all we all know

28:29

that to be true right now. But

28:32

when you look at it, when you

28:32

look at the teachers experience,

28:34

there's actually a lot that

28:34

they're doing over the course of

28:36

the school year, to try to

28:36

engage with families and

28:39

interface with them. And they're

28:39

not getting nearly enough out of

28:43

the experience nor our families.

28:43

Everything from back to school

28:47

night and Family Literacy night

28:47

and parent teacher conferences

28:51

and homework, my God, the number

28:51

of teachers that like spend 15

28:54

minutes of their lunch every day

28:54

on crumpling homework packets

28:57

and trying to check those off.

28:57

reading log inputting

29:00

information, there's so much

29:00

that teachers do intending to

29:04

kind of establish that

29:04

relationship with home and it's

29:07

high effort, low value, which

29:07

gives you a really great

29:10

opportunity to both lighten the

29:10

load for teachers while making

29:14

it a much more robust

29:14

partnership. So parent teacher

29:18

conferences are the place that

29:18

we're starting. They're

29:20

ubiquitous practice. They happen

29:20

consistently throughout the year

29:23

kind of enabling you to to break

29:23

the year into those smaller

29:26

short goal setting cycles that

29:26

that we talked about. And costs

29:30

are such a missed opportunity.

29:30

I've yet to meet a teacher or

29:32

family that like really got a

29:32

ton of value out of their parent

29:36

teacher conference experience.

29:36

So on the teacher side, Blum

29:40

have built a tool that helps

29:40

teachers schedule, plan and

29:43

facilitate best ever had parent

29:43

teacher conferences. You can

29:46

plan a conference in under 30

29:46

seconds, identify what's the one

29:49

thing that would be most helpful

29:49

for the family to practice at

29:51

home. And then when you're

29:51

sitting together at the

29:53

conference, blamo will guide you

29:53

through the experience of

29:56

orienting families to a learning

29:56

goal, giving them a chance to

29:59

practice Their first tutoring

29:59

session with their child while

30:01

getting coaching and support

30:01

from the teacher. And that

30:04

enables families to leave with

30:04

the clarity and confidence. I

30:07

know what I can do this, I know

30:07

what I can do tonight, next week

30:09

next month to help my kid reach

30:09

their goal. And below then feels

30:13

to them, like an extension of

30:13

the teacher, you know, if the

30:16

teacher is Coach bilum, as the

30:16

assistant coach that day in and

30:19

day out, is helping you to

30:19

support your child's learning

30:22

trajectory. That is a much more

30:22

relational experience. The

30:26

technology lives within the

30:26

relationship between the teacher

30:30

and the family. And it lives

30:30

within the relationship between

30:33

the parent and the child. That's

30:33

where the power lives. And it's

30:37

why we've seen the traction that

30:37

we've seen relegate in Lummis,

30:42

partner schools, 79% of families

30:42

have successfully completed a

30:46

tutoring session with their

30:46

child, on average participating

30:49

families are completing two out

30:49

of every three of the daily

30:52

sessions in their entirety. Down

30:52

to the last click. Palumbo has a

30:57

daily active usage, or a monthly

30:57

active usage is 43%, which is

31:01

like compare that to Instagram

31:01

at 29%. Right. So to me the fact

31:05

that parents are tutoring their

31:05

kids more often than they're

31:08

like scrolling Instagram is a

31:08

testament to how deeply they

31:13

care for their kids learning

31:13

and, and if you can build an

31:16

experience for them in the

31:16

context of a trusted

31:18

relationship, and a loving

31:18

relationship, and then just help

31:21

people turn intention into

31:21

practice, you can tap into that

31:24

enormous potential.

31:26

Yeah, one of

31:26

the things that really jumps out

31:28

to me about your approach that I

31:28

think I really admire, and I'm

31:31

sure, you know, listeners are

31:31

honing into many different

31:34

things. But this as well is the

31:34

idea of using the existing

31:37

structure, the parent teacher

31:37

conferences, which is some of

31:40

the only times during the school

31:40

year where the parents and

31:43

teachers are physically in the

31:43

same place, or have to have

31:46

extended time to talk at least

31:46

even if it's a remote

31:49

conference. And using that as

31:49

the touch points to really, you

31:52

know, as you say, build trust,

31:52

build connection, sort of have

31:55

that moment of like, yeah, we're

31:55

going to do this together. And

31:58

then using the app, as the

31:58

continuous touch point, every

32:01

week, you know, multiple times a

32:01

week throughout the time, it's a

32:04

really powerful hybrid approach

32:04

reminds me a little bit of like,

32:07

you know, a personal training

32:07

model where it'd be like, you

32:10

know, if you just have the Nike

32:10

app on your phone, you may or

32:14

may not use, it probably won't,

32:14

if you have a personal trainer,

32:17

you're meeting with, you know,

32:17

once a week or once a month, and

32:20

then in between, they're like an

32:20

everyday you should be doing

32:23

these stretches, they're in the

32:23

app, or you should be doing

32:26

these, these lifts, they're in

32:26

the app, and I'm going to see

32:29

you in a week. And then we're,

32:29

well, I'll catch up together.

32:32

It's just a totally different

32:32

experience. I mean, those

32:35

accountability and sort of

32:35

connection moments that are

32:38

personal, combined with the

32:38

power of tech to be ubiquitous,

32:41

always in people's pockets,

32:41

giving them the reminders

32:43

sending them what they need, is

32:43

very powerful. And I think that

32:46

hybrid approach is really

32:46

exciting to me, you mentioned

32:49

that technology is only one

32:49

piece of the puzzle. And I think

32:52

that's definitely true, right?

32:52

And that policy is needed. You

32:55

know, we are an ed tech podcast,

32:55

we're an edtech community. I'd

32:59

love to hear you expound on that

32:59

a little bit. Because, you know,

33:02

you obviously are seeing the

33:02

value in using technology to

33:05

scale some of the learnings and

33:05

outcomes of Springboard

33:08

Collaborative, but you also know

33:08

that it's limited, it can't do

33:11

everything, it has to sort of

33:11

build within to an existing

33:14

system. And sometimes the system

33:14

needs change. Can you just tell

33:17

us a little bit about how you

33:17

think about what technology sort

33:20

of can and can do to change some

33:20

of the really embedded

33:23

structures of the existing

33:23

education system? Yeah,

33:26

it's

33:26

such a good question. I'll share

33:29

an anecdote and then I'll kind

33:29

of zoom out and then kind of

33:32

give more of a synthesized big

33:32

picture so that the anecdote is

33:38

I was at an AI conference

33:38

recently, and there was a leader

33:42

in ad tech AI on the the

33:42

mainstage, the headliner, doing

33:46

a fireside chat with like one of

33:46

the bigwigs at meta about the

33:49

future of AI, and learning. And

33:49

over the course of a 90 minute

33:53

conversation. No one said the

33:53

word parent is conversation

33:57

about education. Not though the

33:57

word parent was not uttered,

34:00

once and instead, they were

34:00

painting this vision of this

34:03

utopian world where every kid is

34:03

sitting at the dinner table,

34:07

wearing VR goggles and getting

34:07

tutored by AI in the metaverse

34:12

over dinner. And all I could

34:12

think was like, Do you realize

34:17

who else is sitting at the

34:17

dinner table? Like? Who loves

34:20

the kid most in the world, the

34:20

person who wants nothing more

34:24

than to give their child a

34:24

better future? Like, why in the

34:27

world? Are y'all trying to build

34:27

a parallel universe with robot

34:29

tutors sooner than we, like

34:29

equip families to support

34:33

children's learning sooner than

34:33

we equip teachers to partner

34:36

with families. And I think

34:36

that's been one of the misses in

34:40

how we're thinking about AI and

34:40

technology is losing sight of

34:44

the people. You got to start

34:44

with the people and leverage

34:47

that technology to do it. It

34:47

does best. But putting people in

34:51

front of screens like is deeply

34:51

uninteresting to me like

34:53

automating away that humans I

34:53

think it's barking up the wrong

34:56

tree, but there's enormous

34:56

potential in using AI to facil

35:00

Take personal person connection

35:00

and collaboration to eliminate

35:03

the friction so that teachers

35:03

can collaborate with families

35:06

and so the parents can have rich

35:06

learning experiences with their

35:09

kids. That anecdote, I think is

35:09

like telling of what the tech

35:12

can and can't do, in terms of

35:12

what it can do, it can be really

35:16

useful to remove friction, we

35:16

should do that it can be really

35:18

useful to reduce costs, like

35:18

plumber can deliver one on one

35:22

instructional time at 1/20, the

35:22

cost of a traditional model, we

35:27

should leverage technology to do

35:27

that, it can enable scale, we

35:31

should leverage to do that. They

35:31

can personalize content, but the

35:35

content itself is is a

35:35

commodity, right, you can get a

35:39

an AI generated decodable book,

35:39

anywhere, the value is in the

35:44

experience you curate. And in

35:44

the relationship, you cultivate

35:49

kind of via via that technology.

35:49

And that's where things get

35:53

interesting. But that's where

35:53

technology needs to work in

35:55

context, right, as opposed to,

35:55

to just stand on its own two

35:58

legs and beam content into the

35:58

world.

36:01

It's so interesting, I'm laughing a little because I know that I

36:03

don't know exactly the headline

36:06

of you're talking about, but I

36:06

have a guest who it is. And I

36:08

you know, we have talked to

36:08

many, many people who do AI and

36:11

education on this podcast

36:11

through all sorts of different

36:13

approaches and lenses. It's a

36:13

really good I think, reality

36:16

check for the industry. I feel

36:16

it personally. But I think

36:19

others listen to this broadly,

36:19

as well that, you know, the idea

36:22

of, I can't say it better than

36:22

you did it. But basically, you

36:25

know, the idea of the utopian

36:25

future being one in which

36:28

students and AI are sort of

36:28

alone on a planet together, and

36:31

not related to each other, or to

36:31

parents or to teachers is a

36:35

little bit of an absurd

36:35

position. So I appreciate you

36:38

calling it out in exactly that

36:38

way. And yeah, there's, I think,

36:41

a huge amount of you said, so,

36:41

you know, you're using AI to do

36:44

all of the things you just

36:44

mentioned, and technology to do

36:46

a lot of things you just mentioned, to auto generate content to remove friction to

36:48

view, scalable, you know,

36:51

technology to build habits is

36:51

one you're using technology to

36:54

build habits, it's something

36:54

that you want teach parents to

36:57

do something every week, and

36:57

tech is pretty good at helping

36:59

people do something every week

36:59

compared to other things. So you

37:03

are also using, you know, AI in

37:03

some of those contexts, you

37:06

know, just building on this

37:06

approach. I I'm laughing because

37:10

I think it's just such a funny anecdote.

37:12

No shade

37:12

the the the like, but I want to

37:16

push it still like, there's a

37:16

lot of attention being paid to

37:20

single player tools. And I don't

37:20

know if that's like the most the

37:23

highest purpose of the

37:23

technology or its greatest

37:25

potential, I want to see more

37:25

multiplayer interactions, and

37:29

how can the technology in the

37:29

background enable the people to

37:33

shine in a way that the only

37:33

people can and that's where I

37:35

think like, both the potential

37:35

lives and like for folks that

37:39

are, you know, worried about

37:39

paying their investors back,

37:41

it's also where like, the

37:41

defensible value lives, right,

37:43

like the content is already a

37:43

commodity, the copilots very

37:47

quickly become a commodity, and

37:47

then it's a race to the bottom

37:49

on pricing and value, the value

37:49

lives within the relationships.

37:55

And so I'd like to see the field

37:55

pay more attention to that.

37:58

Yeah,

37:59

makes a lot of

37:59

sense. So maybe we can talk a

38:02

little bit about I think VR and

38:02

AI, you know, two of the sort of

38:06

hottest technologies in tech and

38:06

increasingly in edtech, right

38:09

now, both sort of have this

38:09

single player problem that

38:12

you're mentioning, right?

38:12

They're ones that immediately

38:15

people's the first use case for

38:15

both of these technologies that

38:18

people often come up with is oh,

38:18

you know, VR is available, let's

38:21

allow kids to do virtual field

38:21

trips to underwater, you know,

38:25

by themselves. It's when looking

38:25

at marine biology or, you know,

38:29

AI is available, let's do an AI

38:29

tutor for every kid where the

38:32

kid never has to talk to a

38:32

teacher again. And I you know,

38:35

I'm exaggerating on purpose

38:35

here. But can you tell us a

38:38

little bit, you obviously have a

38:38

really different perspective, I

38:40

think, a really valuable

38:40

perspective, how might we as a

38:43

field, start to think about

38:43

technologies like AI and VR to

38:48

help them do the things that

38:48

you're sort of advocating here?

38:51

How might they help build more

38:51

connections? How might they help

38:54

build more, you know, peer to

38:54

peer learning more parent

38:57

teacher collaboration, more, you

38:57

know, teacher student

39:00

collaboration, you know, what

39:00

does that look like? I think for

39:03

you, I know, we were all

39:03

figuring it out together. But

39:06

what does that look like for you

39:06

right now even outside of the

39:08

context of Paloma?

39:10

Yeah, great question. So there's one I talked about in terms of like

39:12

personalizing the content in

39:14

order to create experiences that

39:14

are rigorous and joyful in equal

39:18

measure and and the joy lives in

39:18

the relationship so that that's

39:21

something that AI is uniquely

39:21

suited to do, I get excited

39:24

about going further with the

39:24

parent coaching. So not just

39:28

having like, you know, the

39:28

little embedded parent posted

39:31

and tips kind of within the

39:31

content, but like, you can

39:33

envision a coach mode where

39:33

families can turn it on and as

39:36

they're engaging with their

39:36

child around the book Vilem is

39:39

using NLP to like provide

39:39

actionable tips and coaching and

39:43

support for families in that

39:43

experience. What it isn't doing

39:47

is disintermediate in the family

39:47

and saying, I got this like, go

39:50

make dinner, I'm going to do the

39:50

thing. There's a place in the

39:52

world for that. But like there's

39:52

enough educational babysitters

39:55

like it ain't that but but what

39:55

it can do is listen to the

39:58

interaction and guide and

39:58

coached the family to be the

40:01

best possible teacher to their

40:01

kid that they can be. And I

40:04

think we're just scratching the

40:04

surface in terms of what's

40:06

possible. There. I also get

40:06

excited about AI in the realm

40:11

of. So what we're focused on

40:11

right now is like b2b kind of

40:15

building a foundation, embedding

40:15

Palumbo within districts and

40:17

having it be like the, if your

40:17

kid goes to our district, here's

40:20

how we support your family and

40:20

being a part of the learning

40:22

journey. That's our focus.

40:22

However, once we've got a

40:27

critical mass of families that

40:27

are using the tool day in and

40:30

day out that trusted to view it

40:30

as an extension of the teacher.

40:33

Then Blum is uniquely positioned

40:33

based on what we know about a

40:36

kid's learning needs, their

40:36

goals, their personal interests,

40:40

the family's demographic

40:40

information, we can build and

40:43

use AI to do this, we can build

40:43

a recommendation engine that

40:46

helps connect families with the

40:46

supplemental tools and resources

40:49

that are going to be most

40:49

impactful for their kid. And the

40:52

reason I care about that is it

40:52

there's so much attention paid

40:55

on the classroom, and that

40:55

matters. However, American

41:01

parents spent $161 billion a

41:01

year supplementing their kids

41:05

learning that doesn't doesn't

41:05

even include tuition that's

41:08

above and beyond whatever's

41:08

happening in the school. Those

41:10

are the resources that parents

41:10

are bringing to bear to give

41:14

their child further advantage.

41:14

And that is an incredibly

41:18

inefficient marketplace. Nobody

41:18

knows what the hell they're

41:21

buying, there's throwing money

41:21

against the wall and hoping that

41:24

like, some of it added some

41:24

value for their kid. And it's

41:28

deeply inequitable, as you can

41:28

imagine, the top income quartile

41:31

outspend the bottom by 15x. So

41:31

like, god help you, no matter

41:36

what happens inside the classroom, if you're getting driven under the table 15 to one

41:38

by somebody who's in a position

41:41

to just slather more and more

41:41

advantage on their kid. How in

41:45

the world are you supposed to

41:45

keep up? What gives me hope in

41:49

that is that because the market

41:49

is so inefficient, because

41:52

people don't actually know that

41:52

the $5,000 I plunked down on

41:55

like this or that fancy tutor

41:55

actually, like, help my kid in a

41:59

way that's aligned with their

41:59

curriculum in the classroom,

42:03

that creates an opportunity

42:03

where if you can help the family

42:05

that only has five or 50, or

42:05

$100, to spend, spend those

42:10

dollars in a way that's

42:10

incredibly aligned and advances

42:13

their kids learning, well, then

42:13

definitely could be dangerous,

42:15

right? That then you can up

42:15

there and you can kind of

42:17

disrupt that market, turn it on

42:17

its head and make it a lot more

42:22

efficient, as well as equitable.

42:22

That kind of recommendation

42:25

engine can be facilitated by AI

42:25

in powerful ways. The only thing

42:29

that makes our marketplace

42:29

possible is the relationship

42:33

that it lives within it borrows

42:33

the credibility from the

42:35

relationship between teachers

42:35

and families. And with the trust

42:39

that it's earned, it puts you in

42:39

a position to be able to guide

42:42

families and kind of take the

42:42

legwork and guesswork out of

42:44

finding educational resources

42:44

for for their kids. And of

42:48

course, you can't violate that

42:48

trust, because the relationship

42:50

is everything. But that

42:50

technology enables you to be

42:55

able to do that in quite a

42:55

scalable way.

42:58

Fantastic. I'm

42:58

hearing a couple of sort of

43:00

themes in what what you're

43:00

saying. One is the idea of

43:03

rather than, you know, student

43:03

and AI, and those are the two

43:06

players or a teacher in AI with

43:06

a co pilot, it's sort of like

43:09

almost think of as like a

43:09

triangulation, you know, it

43:12

student and teacher have a

43:12

certain relationship, how might

43:15

AI enhance that relationship?

43:15

You know, parents and teachers

43:18

have relationship, how might AI

43:18

enhance that relationship and so

43:21

on. That feels very powerful

43:21

model for me, it just sort of

43:24

shifts the landscape. And then

43:24

as you say, it's it sort of

43:27

return on investment,

43:27

efficiency, economic efficiency

43:30

in this case, you know, to

43:30

helping parents and families

43:33

figure out where to spend their

43:33

money on something that you

43:36

know, will actually make a

43:36

difference is incredibly

43:39

powerful. And you know, as the

43:39

AI environment evolves, that

43:42

might be it will certainly be

43:42

recommendation engines, as you

43:45

mentioned, like we can actually

43:45

tell you what's more effective

43:48

right now than this is more

43:48

effective than that. You can

43:51

also imagine it being we will

43:51

generate something completely

43:54

new for you, you know, it's not

43:54

just about buying this product

43:57

or buying that product. It's

43:57

okay, given where you are given

44:01

the money you have just been

44:01

given, you know, what your

44:04

student is dealing with will

44:04

actually create something new, a

44:07

new experience, tailor made cost

44:07

effective for that. It's a

44:10

really exciting world. Maybe I'm

44:10

getting too future headed future

44:13

headed there for that. But I

44:13

love the idea of sort of helping

44:16

families really optimize their

44:16

resources, no matter how many

44:19

they have. Fascinating,

44:19

fascinating, fascinating really

44:22

is so Okay, we are unfortunately

44:22

I think getting to the end of

44:26

our time, I know that I'm sort

44:26

of feeling sparks go off with a

44:29

lot of your answers. It's really

44:29

shifting the way I think about,

44:32

you know, the role of technology

44:32

in education, and certainly the

44:36

role of parents in schooling.

44:36

What do you see as where this is

44:39

all going? Right? I mean, what

44:39

is the most exciting trend? You

44:42

see, from your perspective, you

44:42

know, 12 years at Springboard,

44:45

developing Paloma and piloting

44:45

right now, where do you see this

44:49

all going in the future in terms

44:49

of the future of you know, maybe

44:52

it's a parent engagement, maybe

44:52

it's of how tech is going to,

44:55

you know, be incorporated into

44:55

the existing landscape. What

44:58

happens when you put your future

44:58

Your hat on?

45:01

I love that question, I'll share a thought as it relates to the

45:02

particular work that I do. But I

45:06

actually want to step back. And

45:06

you know, as a newcomer to the

45:09

EdTech world and looking at it

45:09

with fresh eyes, there's a

45:12

perspective, I have to say in

45:12

terms of like the world I want

45:16

to see the world I want to live

45:16

in is one in which parents and

45:19

teachers work together rather

45:19

than in isolation to support

45:22

student learning, right? People

45:22

won't even remember the dark

45:25

days, when parents and teachers

45:25

were kind of left to their own

45:29

devices, I want to live in that

45:29

world. And I see a path more

45:32

clearly than ever to get there

45:32

that excites me. But when I when

45:36

I step back and just look at

45:36

like this moment in technology,

45:39

and AI and education, you know,

45:39

with the disclaimer that like

45:42

I'm a newbie to it, take with a

45:42

grain of salt, but But what I

45:46

get excited about is how AI is

45:46

lowering barriers to entry like

45:49

it used to be, or it used to

45:49

seem like the the company that

45:52

wins is whomever hires the best

45:52

engineers. And it's hard to play

45:56

that game. I don't think that's

45:56

the case anymore. I think that

45:59

the company that wins is the one

45:59

that understands their users and

46:03

their use case better than

46:03

anyone else. Speaking of which

46:06

we're hiring product designers

46:06

that keep going down that path.

46:09

But I think that opens up all

46:09

kinds of possibilities. And and

46:13

I think AI is helping to make

46:13

startups much more capital

46:16

efficient than they used to be.

46:16

So there isn't that as steep a

46:19

barrier to entry in terms of the

46:19

the amount of capital capital

46:22

you need to raise in order to

46:22

bring a product to market. The

46:26

reason that I'm excited about

46:26

that is because it means that

46:29

the people who are most

46:29

proximate to problems can more

46:32

easily bring solutions to life,

46:32

right. And nobody understands

46:35

the problem better than the

46:35

people who've experienced it

46:38

firsthand. And therefore nobody

46:38

is going to design a better

46:42

solution than the people who

46:42

have experienced it day in and

46:45

day out firsthand. I think from

46:45

the outside looking in that part

46:48

of why a tech hasn't fully yet

46:48

lived up to its promise is in

46:52

part because solutions were

46:52

designed by technologists who

46:55

didn't deeply enough understand

46:55

the daily experiences of

46:58

teachers and parents and

46:58

students. So I get incredibly

47:01

excited about the ways in which

47:01

those very people, parents,

47:04

teachers, and students are going

47:04

to be able to bring their own

47:08

solutions to life. And I'm

47:08

really bullish about the things

47:11

that they will create.

47:12

Amazing, we

47:12

are starting to see that sort of

47:15

a wave of teacher printers, we

47:15

sometimes call them you know,

47:17

because the barrier to entry,

47:17

you don't need to be a you know,

47:20

a world class engineer to make

47:20

an idea come to life. Now with

47:23

AI, we're starting to see some

47:23

teachers create tools often for

47:27

their own classrooms and their

47:27

for their own use cases, and

47:30

then realize, hey, this is something that could be a product, and I think that trend

47:32

is gonna accelerate, it's really

47:34

exciting to hear you talk about

47:34

it in that way I'm pumped about

47:37

it.

47:38

I think

47:38

in order for AI to close

47:40

opportunity gaps rather than to

47:40

broaden them, we have to ensure

47:45

that the tools are being

47:45

developed by and for

47:48

marginalized populations. It is

47:48

no accident that they 80% of

47:53

Lomas team, when you look across

47:53

our full time and contractors,

47:57

are people of color that have

47:57

lived experiences with the

47:59

problems that we're trying to

47:59

solve that, to me is more than,

48:02

you know, an equity imperative

48:02

in though that matters. It's

48:06

also a competitive advantage.

48:06

And so I think we got to be

48:09

really intentional about

48:09

ensuring whose hands that

48:12

technology ends up in and, and

48:12

we support entrepreneurs in

48:16

bringing their lived experience

48:16

and their solutions to reality.

48:20

100%

48:21

and one

48:21

parallel to that, that it makes

48:23

me think of I totally agree. I'm

48:23

a little maybe naively

48:26

optimistic in this way. But it

48:26

feels like there's a connection

48:30

between the two points you just

48:30

made that could be really

48:32

important, right, which is that,

48:32

you know, for generations, the

48:36

people who are majoring in

48:36

engineering and actually coming

48:38

out of college with computer

48:38

science degrees able to go work

48:42

in the field, where tended to be

48:42

white men for quite a while. And

48:46

that began to change in a few

48:46

different ways. But it's still

48:50

for the most part, the vast

48:50

majority. And that created this

48:53

huge social barrier. Two who

48:53

could enter the tech field who

48:56

could create new products who

48:56

could design the future of what

48:59

technology looked like, if you

48:59

look across the, you know, they

49:02

call it The Magnificent Seven

49:02

now, right? The Amazon,

49:04

Facebook, the really big tech

49:04

companies, they're all white

49:07

men. And I think that hopefully,

49:07

this reduction of the barrier to

49:12

entry and the sort of the change

49:12

in linguistic needs, you don't

49:15

need to know coding syntax, you

49:15

don't need to know how to talk

49:20

to a computer to be able to get

49:20

a computer to design a solution

49:24

for you. Now, I'm hoping that

49:24

really equalizes the playing

49:28

field and others have said the

49:28

opposite they say a it means

49:31

that engineers are going to be

49:31

hyper super engineers, and

49:34

everyone else is still going to

49:34

be way behind. But I'm hoping

49:37

that it levels the playing field

49:37

and you start to see people

49:40

solve very particular problems.

49:40

People who know the problems say

49:44

I can design a solution, I can

49:44

figure out how this is going to

49:47

be better. And my relationship

49:47

to the actual problem is my

49:52

differential advantage not

49:52

because I know how to code not

49:55

because I know Python, or or,

49:55

you know, machine learning, it's

49:58

because I know the problem And I

49:58

can actually design the

50:01

solution, that it will be an

50:01

incredible future maybe naively

50:04

optimistic, but I hope

50:05

so. I'm

50:05

with you. I share your optimism,

50:07

I sure hope. So. What is a

50:09

resource that

50:09

you would recommend for somebody

50:11

who wants to dive deeper into

50:11

the topics we discussed today?

50:15

There's a

50:15

lot of

50:15

great practical resources out

50:17

there. And Lenny's newsletter is

50:17

one that comes to mind that I'm

50:21

sure it will be familiar to many

50:21

listeners. However, when I'm

50:24

thinking about this, ultimately,

50:24

my suggestion is to there's no

50:29

better resource than your users,

50:29

talk to teachers, talk to

50:32

parents talk to students, the

50:32

answers are in the field.

50:35

Fantastic.

50:35

And that very

50:35

consistent with your approach to

50:38

this to both springboard and

50:38

biloba, and I love it. So we

50:42

will put a link to Lenny's

50:42

newsletter in the show notes for

50:45

this episode. But for every

50:45

edtech founder out there for

50:48

investors, for anybody listening

50:48

to this, I think that's a really

50:52

good note to end on. You're

50:52

going to find the answers by

50:56

talking to other people.

50:56

Alejandro Gibes de Gac Thank

50:59

you. You are the founder of

50:59

Springboard Collaborative and of

51:02

Paloma, which is your entry into

51:02

edtech palomalearning.com Thanks

51:06

so much great conversation lived

51:06

up to all that dynamism that I

51:10

promised at the outset. Thank

51:10

you so much for being here with

51:14

us on edtech insiders.

51:15

Thank

51:15

you for having me.

51:17

Thanks for

51:17

listening to this episode of

51:20

edtech insiders. If you liked

51:20

the podcast, remember to rate it

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51:24

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