0:03

​ . 3, 2, 1. Let's start, welcome to the show and, uh, thank you for supporting the e a podcast.

0:09

Mac, it's a pleasure to have you here. Thank you very much. I just wanna dive right into it.

0:13

Sure. Especially where you spend most of your time these days, which is as Vistage

0:16

chair, right, where you spend a lot of time coaching, mentoring, uh, group

0:20

of, uh, executive CEOs, founders, entrepreneurs, but maybe for the audience

0:25

who doesn't know, maybe you could help start off by telling us what exactly is

0:29

Vistage and what exactly is your role. You're okay.

0:32

Okay. Let me just start by asking you guys, um, some questions.

0:38

First of all, , you noticed that every top athlete in the.

0:43

has a coach, Mm-hmm. no matter who you are, whether you are, you know, a great tennis

0:48

player or a bowler or anybody,

0:51

Mm-hmm. or a basketball player, uh, even, uh, concert pianist

0:57

Mm-hmm. has a coach, coach. why?

1:00

Because you need someone, a pair of eyes, pair ears outside your

1:04

body to give you feedback, to tell you exactly what you're doing,

1:09

Mm-hmm. or wrong. So this is what a coach is.

1:13

coach mm-hmm. Okay? We with experience, pick up your little, little, uh, flaws or areas

1:22

that you can improve and work on it.

1:25

Mm-hmm. That's what coaching is all about.

1:27

coaching is. Mm-hmm. Okay. Now, mentoring. Mentoring is what we run through life with a bit of experience,

1:34

Mm-hmm. and we add in our 2 cents.

1:37

worth. Okay. Coming back to Vistage that you asked, uh, Vistage is, uh, a coaching platform

1:46

working together with your peers and the people that, of different verticals,

1:54

meaning different kinds of business.

1:57

They're all CEOs, they're all business owners.

2:00

They have got a different set of minds so that they can work

2:04

on your problem outside the box.

2:07

Mm-hmm. That's what it all about.

2:09

And you build trust. That's the first thing you do with any coach.

2:13

Whether you are an athlete, professional, or anybody.

2:16

You build trust, Mm-hmm. that's where you start.

2:19

Okay. So what exactly then is your role as chair?

2:24

As a chair, I facilitate eight to 16 people.

2:28

Some now I have got a lot more.

2:31

Yeah. And, um, we talk to each other, we.

2:36

How would I say it? I, I don't like the word council, but uh, we talk, we talk to each

2:40

other and I will try to understand as much as I can, as fast as possible

2:46

Mm-hmm. and using my experience right to, uh, how would I say, lead the session?

2:56

Mm-hmm. This one, sometimes I might not know all the answers.

3:02

The person involved will lead the discussion.

3:05

Okay. So it is a two-way coaching thing.

3:09

thing. And you're talking about, so there, there's an element of one-on-ones, but

3:13

there's also the group sessions too? Yes. Yes.

3:16

And so you are more talking about on the one-on-one

3:18

Yes. Yes. And so you said 18 to 16, so that's maybe one group, but

3:23

you do multiple groups, right? Yes. How many groups?

3:26

I have, well, officially two.

3:29

Uh, I do sometimes take on a few smaller groups

3:32

okay, I see. Yeah. Uh, as in when, because I know that I'll kill myself having too many.

3:37

Yes. Yeah. So that's about 50 to 60 plus people that you're probably

3:42

actively coaching at any given , about 40.

3:44

40 plus 40. That's quite a lot.

3:46

Yes. It's very intensive. It's, uh, I'm aside from your other professional work, it's

3:50

almost a full-time job in itself, It is, yeah.

3:53

Okay. So , how does that kind of look operationally?

3:56

I, I know you spend maybe half the month intensively on this.

3:59

So what does a typical week or within the month look like to do this?

4:02

to do? Well, let me just give you an idea. Um, I coach more than a thousand hours.

4:09

Wow. Okay. Think about it.

4:12

I'm, thinking average. Think about the work week,

4:15

Yes. Yes. And uh, that's very significant.

4:17

Yes. Yes. So a lot of people say, wow, you know, how do you manage that?

4:22

And the funny thing is that, uh, it's not a chore.

4:25

It is, it is quite a contrary.

4:28

I actually look forward to it mm-hmm. Uh, well, I hate to say this, but I have no accountability.

4:35

Think about it. Well, it's, yeah, I guess, uh, even, well, I don't know.

4:41

You, you're accountable to the relationship and otherwise the

4:45

relationship doesn't work out if there's no mutual value gained from

4:47

gain. Correct, correct. Yeah. but I guess, um, in a economic return sense less than a consultant

4:53

and even less than an owner, right? yes.

4:55

yes, yes. So I kinda get what you're saying.

4:58

, so I guess, you know, that brings me to my first main question cause

5:01

I really wanna narrow down on the, the coaching slash mentoring.

5:03

well, well first off, do you say you do more coaching or mentoring and

5:07

Both both, Actually, it depends on what hat I need to wear.

5:11

Yeah. Okay. As and when, that's kind of thing.

5:14

thing. Okay. And then I think the most important foundational question,

5:19

What qualifies a person to be a coach? Like what, how can I trust you and how can I say that?

5:24

You know? What you're, what you're saying makes sense and it's true.

5:27

I I guess I guess age is one thing.

5:31

Okay. Right. Um, if you don't have the age, uh, basically at least 20 years of experience,

5:37

uh, working in terms of ownership, entrepreneur, if you're never a ceo,

5:43

it's very difficult to look at it. to look for.

5:45

It's kind of true. Like, say if you get a personal trainer, um, typically what's recommended is they

5:49

can lift the same weight as you can. Otherwise you don't have that feeling.

5:52

Right? Yes. Yes. So that is one.

5:56

And I guess, uh, very important quality.

5:59

Listen, Mm-hmm. listening is very important because the problem with CEOs is that we are at that

6:08

time taught to give results, give answers everything very quickly time is a factor.

6:15

there. Yeah. Yeah. So this time round, we have to sit down and listen.

6:20

Because we have to assess it. Situation. We have to understand.

6:24

So that is the most important part.

6:26

Uh, in what, in terms of listening versus talking, how do

6:30

you split that percentage wise? split that?

6:32

Oh, Four to one? Yeah.

6:36

Four times more listening. Okay.

6:38

So then it's most, most of the times these sessions would be, uh, CEOs probably

6:42

doing majority of the talking and you're just absorbing and then

6:47

Correct. When do you speak up then?

6:52

Well, when there is a session on, um, chances are they'll be talking

6:59

to you, reflecting their problem.

7:02

And we just ask questions, prodding them along.

7:07

Yeah. Okay. So there will be time that I says, I hear you, I understand that this

7:13

is the direction that you're going. But always keeping in mind very, he said, what is the objective?

7:21

Okay. So that will give you the ultimate direction.

7:25

Mm-hmm. A lot of times, I would say 80, 90% of the time when we question that clearly,

7:34

the CEO actually know the route. Knows where they're going, except when they're sitting alone and

7:40

there's nobody to talk to and they're going around circles.

7:45

Yes. So then yeah, you keep iterating on, on, you know, the same context,

7:49

but it doesn't go anywhere. Cause you need more context typically, which helps by talking

7:53

Yes. Correct. and a sense, , , you're, you know, heading towards my other questions,

7:58

which is, the framework for coaching what kind of system do you follow

8:02

or what kind of framework do you. Okay.

8:05

There are a few things that I, I have to have basic, for example,

8:10

the way you think the mindset. You'd be surprised.

8:14

A lot of CEOs don't actually know what concept of a business is.

8:22

can you clarify?? Okay. Do you agree with me that business is in infinite game?

8:31

That's a very interesting that you bring that up because, uh, I think in later,

8:35

later on the, in this discussion, I actually wanted to ask about your career.

8:38

And that's one of the things I wanted to bring up is that, um,

8:41

I actually don't think business inherently is an infinite game.

8:46

However, we do have outliers that are very enduring.

8:50

Right? And so to, I guess to short answer is I don't think so in general, no.

8:55

okay. Okay. So that is the kind of thinking that I need to set your mind to.

9:00

Okay. Okay. Another thing is that I also want to know, uh, do you have, what kind,

9:06

what kind of mindset do you have? Mm-hmm.

9:09

Because that would d. How far you gonna grow?

9:12

I see. If you have a closed mindset and you don't want to do it, there's nothing I can do.

9:19

Mm-hmm. Okay. But you don't want to learn how to cycle, so be it.

9:25

I give you a story. Um, my wife didn't want to learn how to cycle because she

9:31

felt that she's too old Okay.

9:34

Just for the record, my wife is 52.

9:36

Okay. She says that, look, I'm too far ahead

9:40

Yeah. in life to learn how to cycle on the, you know, to cycle.

9:44

Mm-hmm. But my two other kids all could cycle.

9:51

Learning how to cycle, all could cycle, Yeah.

9:53

and she's left out. Mm-hmm.

9:57

So I just basically brought her along by saying that you want to join us, cycle

10:01

around the park, learn how to cycle.

10:05

Mm-hmm. So it is to create the desire for her to learn.

10:10

That's how she improves okay also, we are all happy now cycling around.

10:14

Mm-hmm. Is it So it is just the, the right, uh, how would I say, uh, inducement

10:20

Mm-hmm. basically is to encourage the person, like I says, if you don't

10:26

want to do it, I can't do anything. Okay. So, so foundationally the, the beginning of the framework is assessing if

10:32

a person is essentially coachable. Yes.

10:35

Um, and this, I mean, I was gonna ask this later on, but since it's brought up now,

10:39

are there people, are all people coachable No,

10:42

No, not everyone. No. Let me tell you, um, before I take on anybody, I normally have about

10:49

an hour or two session with them. Yeah.

10:51

Just to assess, because it's, uh, what I call a mutual selection.

10:56

Whether you like me or what I like you. Sure.

11:00

So that would be the, my starting point. Okay.

11:04

Okay. So you have a nice foundation. So let's say we get past the point, you know, there's mutual acceptance, uh, good

11:09

compatibility, which is very important. Um, you assess the mindset.

11:14

So then in terms of the next part of the framework, how do you think about

11:19

developing the coaching relationship? Or what happens next

11:22

Well, I ask a lot of questions about themselves.

11:25

I ask them, where do you, where do you, where do you wanna go from here?

11:29

Uh, I start by asking, how did you get here?

11:32

Yeah. The next thing is says, where do you want to go to?

11:35

to? Mm-hmm. So the methodology of coming here and going there is two different things.

11:41

So that is where I start. Okay. So establishing goals

11:44

essentially. Right. Right. Um, do you take into account to your own goals as well?

11:49

I mean, actually, so when I look for a coach, then does there have

11:54

to be compatibility on both sides or it doesn't really matter.

11:56

The, the executive being coached has, is a very selfish, in respect that they only.

12:01

That matters the most or Well, we always say that, The client.

12:08

The coachee is, has the most, uh, say okay.

12:13

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But where do I draw a line?

12:17

I, correct. I would draw a line with things that I'm not very familiar

12:20

with. Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. For example, if you ask me to talk, talk about coaching a

12:26

person in a music industry,

12:28

mm-hmm. I've got no clue. The basics are the same.

12:33

yes. But I can't go far. Okay.

12:36

True. the main expertise essentially yes. Part of your framework, right?

12:40

So you established a foundation, you established a goals.

12:43

Your method or your style seems very Socratic in nature.

12:46

Okay. Ask questions. . But I think we know some people are not very receptive to.

12:51

Questioning in that kind of manner. So doesn't mean they're not coachable.

12:55

. So how does that work out then when you have a client or a coachee who

13:02

does not respond very well to coaching? Because it's a fine line, it's almost at a point where you'll say, no,

13:06

they're not coachable, but maybe it's not necessarily the case.

13:09

So I'm sure you have some clients like this.

13:11

So Yes, we do. We, we do.

13:13

Well, like I said, I've spoken to countless hundreds of people.

13:17

Yeah. Um, one of the first things that I ask them to, to be comfortable,

13:22

Mm-hmm. be vulnerable, Mm-hmm.

13:25

tell me, because whatever is said between you and me is kept between the four walls.

13:31

That would be a good start. Mm-hmm. So some people take longer.

13:35

Mm. Yeah. There are times, uh, many times spoke to a person after a

13:40

while they broke down and cry.

13:43

Mm-hmm. Uh, sometimes, I mean, on all my table, it's always a box of tissue.

13:52

And trust me, it's not only women, guys do that.

13:55

I'm sure. Yeah. so it takes, how would I say, uh, a little nag from me

14:02

Mm-hmm. peck on the little hole, uh,

14:04

Yeah. and open it up. So I'm very curious about the nuance there because how do you determine that

14:12

they're not coachable versus I should poke a little bit, poke a little bit, poke

14:16

later, then value and fruits later on.

14:18

Right. There's gotta, it's very blurry, right? Yes, it is.

14:21

I guess that comes down to experience.

14:23

Okay. Yeah. Um, I will, can, I can give you an example.

14:27

I spoke to a guy who is quite senior.

14:30

yeah. Probably about near retirement.

14:36

Why I say that is that h do play a role.

14:39

So he was, um, winding up his position.

14:44

He's a succession problem. Mm-hmm. I could identify all that.

14:48

identify him. Um, at the end of the day, he felt like,

14:55

he just needed someone to talk to. Mm-hmm. He wasn't building a business.

14:59

Okay. Okay.

15:02

So actually he was looking at the second chapter,

15:04

Yeah. looking for a second chapter. chapter. You You see?

15:07

So at the end of the day, at the end of the session, I

15:09

will just tell him what I feel mm-hmm. And explain to him what he's looking, and I will tell him that,

15:14

you know, you can work with me, but it's gonna be a short one

15:19

one. Mm-hmm. Because you only get him started on the next chapter of the journey.

15:22

Yes. Yeah. So, you know, I then he realized, then I said, okay, think about it before

15:30

we even embark on the second part. . Mm-hmm. So that's, that's fine.

15:34

At the end of the day, uh, actually he, he took on professional coaching.

15:39

Okay. Which is perfectly fine with me.

15:42

Yeah. So what, what does that mean? Professional coaching versus like, okay.

15:46

So he hired someone just for him only? Uh, no, he became a coach.

15:50

He, become So he, okay.

15:53

Maybe he realized that was his fullfillment you showed him that.

15:56

Yeah, you yeah, was, you know, so, but yeah. I guess that's the nature of the business

15:59

Yes. Yes. I mean, and plus ultimately if you have more coaches that are good, it

16:05

just benefits the ecosystem ultimately Correct.

16:07

Right? Right. Yeah. So what was your conception of coaching before going into Vistage

16:12

and has that conception changed? Yes.

16:16

Yes. I, I think that my perspective of things slightly changed because in

16:22

the past I looked at coaching was everything is based on my experience.

16:26

Mm. I've walked the journey, I will tell you what my journey looks like.

16:31

Yeah. Take it or leave it, shove it. That's what, that's what it is.

16:35

Right. That's my experience. Mm-hmm.

16:38

So probably a little bit egoistical of all, you know,

16:43

very natural for successful business owners.

16:46

Right. So, Yeah. Listen to me, Yeah.

16:48

kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Um, when I took it on, then I realized that after listening, you know, my

16:55

perspective might not be correct.

16:59

Yeah. And that's where the group facilitation comes.

17:04

When I said that, I will tell you very clearly that this

17:07

is my only, my perspective. I need the rest of the people

17:12

Yeah. think outside the box and give suggestions.

17:16

suggestion. Mm-hmm. Then we could explore further. Yeah.

17:21

Was there a specific moment that led that realization?

17:24

um, what happened was that, uh, well, I realized that when I joined Vistage

17:32

or that long ago, and uh, that's when I

17:37

You. You joined member. okay.

17:40

I joined as a member, yeah. Then it opened my mind up and I could see that it leveraged on

17:47

different perspective of things. Yeah. Which I think that that's what we want.

17:51

Yeah. As a leader, you go in and says, I'm going route A, B, and

17:56

C, but I could be D, E, and F.

18:00

So that's what we want. We want choices.

18:03

Ultimately, we still make the decision anyway.

18:05

decision. Yeah, of course. So that's the, the fundamental change that I realize that I'm not right all the time.

18:12

Mm. Here's an interesting thought then.

18:16

Why do you think that's more common in companies to not be able

18:21

to build that culture, to build that function within a company?

18:24

Is that why they need things like Vistage, or why aren't there more

18:28

companies just doing that than inherently if it's very beneficial?

18:32

It boils out to the person because the person actually, you know, you

18:35

don't know what you don't know. That that's true. Yeah.

18:38

Right? Yeah. So a lot of us, uh, especially the Asian culture, uh, we

18:45

get our mentor or coach from. Father or uncle or relative on top of us, uh, they just beat down on you.

18:53

Then when you open up and open yourself up to other, uh,

18:57

perspective, then you realize,

19:00

okay, That's the interesting interesting, that's the exposure.

19:02

So it be, it's like, it's almost a chicken and egg problem though.

19:05

So if you're this type of owner or ceo o what has led them

19:11

to something like Vistage? Like how would they even be open to if they're not even

19:14

from that culture to begin with? Exactly. Okay.

19:16

Good point. I met, I, I've met a lot of young CEOs right, recently.

19:23

Uh, the, the second gen. Right.

19:25

The ones inheriting Yes, yes. Amazing.

19:28

Because they will come and sit down with me, have a cup of coffee,

19:31

Yeah. and they will tell me their life story. And one thing good about them is that they're very vulnerable about it,

19:36

Mm. especially when I can relate. Mm-hmm.

19:39

I will tell them this is what's happening. then, they says, oh my God, this is true.

19:43

Yeah. And uh, after talking about.

19:47

Two hours and I could actually predict what's going

19:51

Mm-hmm. Um, I'm not, God, I don't pretend that I know all,

19:56

Yeah. but you know, when you talk to 1, 2, 3, the 50th one,

20:01

a pattern for sure. , the pattern will show. Yeah. So

20:05

I asked them very point blank, how do you know about me?

20:08

Mm. Oh, my friend recommended.

20:14

Mm. So in my, my line of work, I don't go out and scout now,

20:19

Yeah. uh, I don't have to go marketing.

20:21

It's just by word of mouth. I can't handle.

20:23

Yeah. I can't handle it. Yeah. Okay. Um, my groups are full.

20:28

I can't take anymore because, you know, I, I've got 24 hours in a day.

20:32

Yeah, That's about it. No more, no less.

20:35

I couldn't squeeze anybody in. But I do still receive a lot of calls

20:39

call asking me to look at. Mm-hmm.

20:42

So what I do is I'll look at some other coach coaches talk to them.

20:47

and yeah. so by word of mouth and you'd be surprised.

20:52

The second gen people are generally very similar pattern

20:55

when, when you say, uh, so what is this age group?

20:58

We're talking thirties. Mid thirties millennials essentially, then?

21:01

Yeah. Okay. Yes. And yeah, I guess Gen Z would be too young at this point to be inheriting.

21:07

Not, yes, not yet. And would you contrast then, say Gen X or even older generation towards

21:13

coaching, is that even harder for them to approach or is it, do they get

21:18

word of mouth two in that generation Um, that generation tend to be a little bit reserved.

21:23

Okay. I know it all. Mm-hmm.

21:27

It's those who want to go beyond

21:29

Mm-hmm. the level they will explore.

21:34

But once they explore and they talk, they realize.

21:38

So I have a lot of. Members that are much older, in their fifties and, uh, we are in a

21:46

different level of playing field. playing field. Mm-hmm. Okay.

21:50

Yeah, We talk a lot of things, uh, very deep, personalized,

21:55

Mm-hmm. different from the 30 plus very different.

22:00

And, um, generally I think that their wants are very different

22:06

very mm-hmm. and their needs are very clear. Different stages of development, I guess

22:11

Correct. Yeah. Correct. Correct. Okay. So since being able to identify those different goals within the

22:17

stages and then matching patterns

22:19

Yes. establishing trust relationship to kind of make this kind of work.

22:23

Right. So what, what are some of more of the unexpected things you've learned

22:27

from full-time coaching, basically Oh.

22:30

Um, besides coaching, I do life coaching and I do personal.

22:36

Mm-hmm. And I learned a lot from there.

22:39

Mm-hmm. And I, I take it very candidly.

22:43

Uh, sometimes they do pour their heart out. Mm-hmm.

22:47

Good and bad. Um, relationships, all those areas, I do talk about it and I'm very clear

22:57

because I, I am acting as a third party standing outside looking at the person.

23:02

No judge. No judge. No judgment at

23:04

Yeah. So that's the difference.

23:07

. Mm-hmm. So I guess in, so if you get like a mix of personal and professional,

23:14

is, is there any common elements of things that surprise you

23:19

or is it different every time?

23:22

let me talk you, um, different age group have different types of regrets.

23:27

of Mm. sense. Yeah.

23:30

So each regret, if you look at the regret and confront them,

23:34

then you can look forward. . Mm-hmm. So that's what I help them.

23:37

to do. Yeah. It's, it's a pretty good tool to develop too, if you are trying to develop

23:42

yourself regret minimization as a, as a framework to make decision making.

23:46

Yes. that's, and I think, , uh, a lot of people who have that kind of stress

23:49

in your life, probably never app, never maybe thought about it deeply

23:53

yes. To, to do that. And I guess it's also hard, so it's why you need the help of someone

23:57

else to maybe kind of get you there correct. Yeah. Right.

23:59

Okay. Then in terms of the clients who have very specific goals, how do

24:06

you go about tracking performance Ah, straightforward.

24:10

Mm-hmm. Um, ultimately the, the lag indicator, which is financials

24:14

Okay, ah really? Of the business?

24:17

Yes. But are they always financially like, anchored?

24:21

The, the goals? Well, if you talk about business Yeah.

24:24

That, that will be the ultimate thing. Right? That's true.

24:26

Yeah. Um, of course, besides that, uh, we, we do talk about other

24:30

things because the, the ultimate. Financials are not a, a great, uh, uh, indicator, right?

24:36

I mean, it's lagging all the time. By the time you know that you're doing badly, then you say you're screwed up.

24:41

Yeah. Yeah. So those are the things, and I will run through step by step.

24:45

What are they doing now as to what I think they should be doing.

24:51

Sometimes, a lot of times they know,

24:54

Mm. they just need somebody to push them, nudge them along.

24:57

Nudge. Mm-hmm. So one of the things that I, me, that I learned over time is how

25:07

hard should I push sometimes?

25:09

them? Yeah. How hard should I nudge? Okay.

25:13

There is no guarantee that I, I know that it will work.

25:16

Mm-hmm. If you come to me and tell me that my, my business is going down to tubes chances,

25:21

I will say to you, I can't help you Yeah.

25:23

because it's already gone downhill. Mm. So, assuming that you're going plateau and you tell me that, you know, three

25:30

years, five years from now, I want to find an inflection and scale up.

25:35

scaling. Mm-hmm. Okay. If you're going downhill, I will look at it and tell you, these are the things

25:41

that you have to start looking at. that you mm-hmm.

25:44

I mean, very simple. Of course. Yeah. It's very simple.

25:47

Yeah. But the excitement is actually, when you're doing scaling, scaling up, scaling

25:52

down, breaking into new business, or sometimes you're, you're so asphyxiated

25:58

in, um, a single revenue source.

26:00

Mm-hmm. I will tell you that. No, look, start looking Some people are just, you know, they think they are great.

26:10

Yeah. company's doing well. well. Mm-hmm. The biggest problem you have is that you think you're good.

26:15

Now, mmhmm that is your biggest problem.

26:18

Mm, yeah So then they start to wake up mm-hmm.

26:20

because you need a third party outside to look at it.

26:23

Okay. So then, yeah.

26:26

So then that's measuring by financial performance, um,

26:29

also, I guess by feeling, right? Yes. If, if they're happy with the relationship.

26:33

Then what about the worst experience you had coaching?

26:37

Is there anything really bad that you've come across?

26:39

really Touch wood? No. No.

26:41

I mean, I have an interesting experience once where it is to do with personal

26:47

relationship and very unhappy.

26:50

Mm-hmm. I actually said to the person, stop,

26:53

Yeah you know, if it is affecting the professional side of you, sort it out.

27:00

Mm-hmm. You know, I I really can't help.

27:02

. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's between two other parties, not me.

27:08

stop sort it out. Okay. And I, I try to focus them on, on that area.

27:12

mmm Okay. That's What it means yeah

27:15

I wanna go back to what something you said earlier, so if a business is

27:18

not doing well, even though you point out what they should be doing, you,

27:26

are you saying that the outcome most likely still be the same, where it

27:30

doesn't improve or that it's harder or

27:33

no? Uh, the, the outcome is not gonna change.

27:36

For example, I have one particular member, because they're financially very sound

27:42

Mm-hmm. okay. And they're not moving happy with what it is.

27:48

Mm-hmm. I've given an ultimatum.

27:54

if you continue to be like this, you don't need me.

27:58

I don't see a role that I will play and I don't want to keep you there

28:02

just for the sake of keeping there.

28:05

I could serve somebody else. Someone could get more value out of it

28:09

Yes. Yeah. know, it's not about money.

28:12

It's just that if don't, don't keep my time.

28:14

Do you think that's maybe an end goal for most of your clients then where they've

28:19

been able to identify what is enough because everyone sort of, otherwise

28:25

you'll never be happy if you don't reach this kind of point, or at least maybe

28:28

it's a, an inflection to a new chapter, yes

28:31

or some of your clients. Yeah. So is is that where all these relationships are heading

28:35

I have got many clients that, uh, you know, we come in

28:40

and we talk about the ideas,

28:42

Yeah. the objectives, the end goal to reach your end goal.

28:47

We have to do this. And some of them have done it very well.

28:51

But when I have one particular one that's done so well that I told him, um,

28:58

you're doing better outside this country,

29:00

Mm-hmm. which he did. Yeah.

29:03

He's not exploring. And he's, he comes to, Hey, you know what, um, you are right.

29:08

I'm gonna set up office here. I'ma set our office here.

29:11

Good. Good for you. I encouraged it.

29:14

At the end of the day, I said to him, I you know, you'll be spending

29:17

a lot of time flying in and out. Yeah. You won't have time for us.

29:22

Mm-hmm. And I gotta think of not only him, but also as the group.

29:26

Imagine if you are one of the group members and you don't show up,

29:30

mm-hmm. you're not contributing.

29:32

It's not what you can take, Yeah. It's what you can contribute too

29:35

Yeah. It has a go both ways. Yeah. So it has go both ways.

29:39

And I told them that if we function as a group, everybody must pull their weight.

29:46

Contribute. Yeah. That's what I'm, I'm telling everybody.

29:49

I see. some of them have to go.

29:52

Yeah. Okay. So that's one possible natural end.

29:55

And, how so what about others? Like, do, do you help define what that enough looks like?

30:02

I do, but human beings as such, that enough is never enough.

30:08

I have sat with one and I asked him, I says, what is enough for you?

30:14

Tell me what enough looks like. Yeah.

30:18

They drew a fuzzy picture. Put it all together.

30:22

Two years down the road, that fuzzy picture got bigger,

30:25

Mm-hmm. More fuzzy or more clear.

30:28

Uh, bigger fuzzy picture.

30:30

Bigger fuzzy picture. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So I says, you know, realistically, you're now at this age.

30:38

I'm not say he's a professional. I said that, okay, you have to look at the sunset part.

30:43

Mm-hmm. That means that you got to plan for you and your wife.

30:50

then he looked at me what do you mean?

30:54

look, with all the money in the world, what you gonna do?

30:59

Mm-hmm. Couldn't answer.

31:02

You're not gonna carry on like this, right? To 65, 70.

31:06

Yeah. So he looked at retire.

31:09

Mm-hmm. That must be really hard though.

31:13

It well, When he left me, he was retiring.

31:18

It took him another three years to retire.

31:22

Quite normal quite normal. So we kept in touch.

31:25

We do talk on the phone every now and then. How are things?

31:28

Yeah. And then he said to me, Hey, I got this issue.

31:30

What, what do you think? How do you do? I says, you got two, two ways.

31:33

You talk to me or you come back to the group, just present as a guest.

31:37

Mm-hmm. Talk about it. Because everybody knows you. Yeah.

31:40

Or I can find a, a third party to help you to solve it up.

31:44

Yeah. Pay that person Mm-hmm.

31:46

and I don't want to, to you know, don't pay me.

31:49

Yeah. Yeah. Because it's a conflict of interest. yea yea yea.

31:53

so Yeah. I mean, I guess it, it would make more sense for this type of enough

31:57

issue maybe for the older generation. Yes. So I think a younger person, yes.

32:01

They're always hungry, so there's always something to optimize.

32:03

Correct. Correct. If you were to distill, maybe.

32:07

I mean, you can take your time to think about it. What is probably the most important thing you've gotten like

32:12

learned from coaching executives? Enjoy life

32:17

Mm-hmm. because, you know, I'm 62 and, um, it took, uh, a massive wake up call

32:27

mm-hmm. before I took a step back So you're always just working nonstop?

32:30

Yes. So after my, my heart attack and, uh, did a bypass mm-hmm.

32:39

money is not, money is not everything. Mm-hmm.

32:42

Right. So I realized that I think I need to spend more time with my family.

32:46

spend more mm-hmm. That hence coaching him around.

32:48

around. Mm-hmm. I see. So how do you balance that with a young person who doesn't have the money?

32:54

Cause it's easy to say when you don't ha It's very existential when you don't

32:58

have it or when, say, when your money's tied up in equity and not actually.

33:03

So how do you balance saying that to a young person or even like say mid thirties

33:08

to forties, while, while it is true, they probably may have regrets for not spending

33:14

enough time with the things that they care about, whether it be family or something

33:17

Mm-hmm. but at the same time, they also don't have that luxury of

33:20

having that cash pile, right? Yes.

33:22

Yes. So I think that you have to work towards a goal.

33:25

Mm-hmm. So we set up little milestones

33:29

Yeah. that they have to try to achieve

33:31

Mm-hmm. and reaching their, sort of pick off a check of a box one at a time.

33:37

at No promises that is, you know, you check off 10 boxes, you'll be happy.

33:41

No such thing. After 10 with three more, five more, I dunno.

33:46

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then across all your age groups, is there something that comes up as a

33:53

recurring problem across all clients?

33:56

Like what's the most common problem from coaching that you see?

34:00

Um, okay. I think generally, I feel that a lot of people, don't have enough ideas.

34:08

Mm-hmm. Don't have any. You think that this is the best thing?

34:12

Yeah. Since sliced bread. Mm-hmm. This is it.

34:17

So when I start pointing out, or when the group start pointing out, or when we start

34:21

exchanging ideas and explore, then we realize that, oh shit, that's a lot more.

34:26

Mm. so that is generally, business entrepreneur's problem blind

34:35

spot. Mm-hmm. And how do you combat them?

34:38

Like how do you get more diversity in your life or more

34:41

exposure to expand your mindset?

34:45

meeting people, working with a group of people that you trust explicitly

34:51

and you know that when they say a spade is a spade, there is no agenda.

34:56

agenda. Yeah. It's, and I guess that's a big problem with CEOs is that.

35:01

Within their own group because they're in their position of power.

35:04

They don't wanna list, even though it might be the same advice

35:06

that a group outside would give. Right. Yeah. Yes.

35:08

it's very tricky. So I guess it's a very necessary function

35:11

correct. So let's make it more relevant then.

35:15

So with all, you know, your clients, what are they most worried about

35:19

today, 2023 in the next few years?

35:21

Or like, maybe what are their, some of their greatest challenges that they're facing

35:24

Today? Yeah. I think that everybody is worried about recession.

35:28

. Mm-hmm. Um, we are very lucky in this part of the world.

35:32

the . Yeah. I think we could escape it. Why, why is that?

35:35

Um, I guess it's the position where we are, I mean, as

35:40

in Malaysia as our country. Okay. Uh, we are at the, well, how would I say it, at the right place, at the right time.

35:46

We are not strongly biased to Ukraine, China, uh, Russia.

35:51

Yeah. Yeah. Or us.

35:54

Yeah. You know, that kind of thing. So we are playing the right political game.

35:58

. Yeah Okay. Um, therefore our politicians.

36:04

Yeah. Got to get their act together.

36:08

Yeah. It's very interesting with the current news with, um, the Prime Minister talking

36:12

about how the US cur the dollars not necessarily needed to be the reserve,

36:18

. Yes. Seems that there's some flavor changing though,

36:21

Yeah, yeah, Yeah. I guess points to maybe your executives, uh, uncertainty concerns.

36:25

Where, where, how do I invest in the future if you don't

36:28

know where that's heading? You know, and also in the context of possible recession, geopolitical

36:33

lines also, at least in my world too, in terms of startups and investing

36:37

in VCs, that's a big one too. Where do you structure your company if you're starting up

36:41

correct. who do you sell to? If you sell to what's the inherent risk of those customers

36:44

Correct. So it's, it's a very big problem these days.

36:46

So let's, let's move on then to more relevant stuff.

36:49

Aside from Vistage, you know, where do you spend most of

36:51

your time professionally, then? What, what's your critical path?

36:55

Um, building memories of my family.

36:59

That's, The biggest one. Mm-hmm. Um, I'm blessed with, uh, three kids.

37:06

Uh, the eldest, um, will probably get married hopefully end of the year

37:12

Congratulations. Thank you. with all goes well, and I've got two very young ones, 11 and nine.

37:22

they are growing up pretty well. I love them to bits.

37:25

And, um, strange thing is that I have adult conversation with

37:30

my son, very adult conversation.

37:32

How old is he? 11. You know, kids, they are more precocious than we realize,

37:37

Yes. know. Yes, I know. I know. Um, I, I keep, oh, kept looking at my relationship with my dad

37:45

Yeah and him and me, and I ask him things like, does your friend talk to

37:50

your, their father, like what we do?

37:53

And he no, dad. He says, why?

37:57

Then he would rant onto a lot of things and I was trying to

38:00

figure out what, what it means. Right. You know? Yeah. But, um, I thought that that's very important to me.

38:07

My daughter is wonderful. Uh, my eldest is establishing herself slowly,

38:13

mm-hmm. and I'm very happy what she has done so far.

38:17

Yeah. I guess that's, you know, what I want.

38:21

okay. So does that mean you're more or less retired or?

38:25

I tell people that I'm retired, but I've got projects running.

38:27

Yeah, exactly. Because I, I believe at least on, on LinkedIn, it still says

38:31

you're the, the CEO of Makok Group Yeah.

38:34

Yeah. So that, that's, uh, an official position.

38:36

But those are just ongoing projects then? Yes.

38:39

Uh, I have got a, I've got a joint venture with the 52 story building coming up.

38:44

Mm-hmm. Okay. I still looking at development in Johor.

38:47

Mm-hmm. Um, but like I said, I tried to play it at the back of my mind now,

38:52

Mm-hmm. and I feel that, you know, when it comes, it comes.

38:55

Yeah. Doesn't need me to be around.

38:58

Yeah. No. I've got professional people. So you professionalized the business?

39:01

Yes, I well, I want to, yeah. We're working on it.

39:04

Working on it. Okay. So, interesting.

39:07

So does that mean for your current endeavors, is it more wealth

39:12

generation focused or more wealth preservation focused at this point?

39:18

on both ways? Both ways? ways? Yeah.

39:20

So when a good deal comes along, of course I'll strike.

39:24

Yeah. If not, then I can sit down and shake legs

39:26

Yeah. Yeah. So you could, you can bide your time.

39:29

It's, it's like typically, um, a good focused value investor, they

39:32

just wait for the right swing. . Yeah. if you miss a few, it's fine, but you just gotta make sure you get it.

39:36

When you hit it, you hit it. Right. What would you say your greatest domain expertise is these days?

39:42

Would it, would it be property development? . Yes. Okay.

39:45

So then let, let's get, pick some of your brain on the current

39:48

state of property development. Then. What, what does the industry look like today and how does that

39:51

shape out in the coming years? Well, a lot of people saying that, um, you know, property is

39:58

something that won't go far wrong. Okay.

40:00

. Okay. Um, it's funny is that, you know, if you built three houses, you are a developer.

40:07

So that, that is something that I got ruled out because I've built

40:11

a few thousand houses, okay? Okay. Okay.

40:14

Um, in today's market, you have to be very careful.

40:21

Property is not something that you buy a piece of land and develop. You buy the piece of land and you just gestate.

40:26

You need to gestate okay?

40:28

Because the value, Yeah. the cost.

40:31

You buy a piece of land that's $10 today, if you built is too expensive, so you

40:36

wait for five years, 10 then $10 is very cheap because by now the escalation costs

40:42

would've gone up to, I don't know, $50. Yeah.

40:44

So it becomes cheap, cheap. Mm-hmm. So that's what developers are,

40:49

Yeah and the worst thing I always tell, I've got a lot of developer

40:54

CEOs who have joined me. Yeah.

40:56

Uh, I tell 'em, look, you know, the fastest way is to go down

40:59

under is your next project.

41:02

Yeah. Inherently by the, the nature of the business its very risky.

41:05

yes. It's very risky. And a lot of people say, oh, you make a lot of money.

41:10

You should look at the risk too. Yeah.

41:13

Honestly, relative to the risk, relative to margins.

41:16

I find it, it's, at least from a world where it's not very asset it's mm-hmm.

41:21

it's quite very risky to me at least yes,

41:24

Um, and I, and I, I've talked to also various different

41:26

developers too, and Right. You have a few camps where if you're like these big listed companies,

41:31

you can never stop building, which also that terms.

41:34

right? Cuz you're one, you never have cash and then your cost of capital goes

41:37

up and it's, it's hard to finance everything and have cash flow.

41:40

And then you have your other developers who could do many projects, but then they

41:44

almost have like a shell company, right? It's just more like the holding company.

41:47

But each project is a company Yes. And they offload risk that way

41:50

Yes. So that if one goes under the whole thing doesn't go under thats right, so it doesn't domino back

41:54

yeah. But it leads for this very weird space where, you know, you have cookie cutter,

41:59

keep building and then this other one where they just never take risks either.

42:03

Right. So it's, it's kind of interesting.

42:05

So for your developments, where have you sat in between the spectrum?

42:11

Well, I have not been, because of the, the current market situation, I have not

42:17

been acquiring any properties at all. Mm-hmm.

42:19

Okay. Obvious pandemic now?

42:21

No, don't buy land. . You're Talking, uh, bare land or also buildings

42:27

or whichever. Whichever. Yeah. That comes, whatever opportunity that comes.

42:30

Mm-hmm. Okay. So I'm building on lands that was owned by my father.

42:37

So you can see the difference in terms of cost structure.

42:40

Yeah. So my cost structure is, I would say minimal.

42:43

Mm-hmm. So it's a matter of just taking off.

42:47

Yeah. I, you know, and I found that very interesting for, I talked to a

42:51

lot of family businesses who've been around for a long time.

42:54

Um, and interestingly enough, a lot of the business that they've built over the

42:58

past few decades, many of them are gone. But what.

43:01

Back then at least you've had, when you build a business, you had

43:04

to acquire the land too, at least yes. Uh, and what they found out was that it was actually more valuable

43:08

if they never did the business and if they just held the land Yeah.

43:10

Right. Yeah. So this, this seems to be a feature at least within probably It's very common.

43:15

Every, every very common. Yeah. Very common. Very But at the same time, it doesn't lead to efficiencies.

43:21

Right. Or, or innovation. So is there any way that can be addressed you think?

43:29

Peculiar to each individual business, right.

43:31

You have to look at, that's why I always advocate, uh, revenue diversification.

43:36

Yeah. Cannot depend solely a hundred percent on property development.

43:40

Yeah. So I do advocate things like look at something else.

43:43

Yeah. I've got a, I've got a client. Hundred percent on one particular product.

43:50

Mm-hmm. Okay. And I said to him, generally enough cash sitting there looking pretty,

43:57

looking to other regions to go For the same model

44:00

same model, same product. Yeah. It's a cookie cutter thing.

44:03

So I said, can we do something else? They says, what, go and fry char kway teow or something.

44:10

Something like that? Yeah. Something cash.

44:12

That brings in cash in. Even if it's not the, the same business as big, right?

44:16

Yeah. Yes. This is Correct.

44:18

Yeah. Because that automatically reduce your risk.

44:21

Mm-hmm. That's what I'm And I guess you've seen those cycles.

44:25

Yes. must have seen many families wiped out by being too concentrated on the next

44:29

cycle and didn't diversify the revenue.

44:32

correct? Correct. And so do you have a specific investment thesis you focus

44:36

on in property development? Or how do you go thinking about generating business in this industry?

44:44

like all leading edge technology, we have to look at what's the new thing.

44:49

Mm-hmm. Right. And you'd be surprised.

44:52

I mean, in the old days, you look at houses, individual houses, terrace houses,

44:56

houses. mmhmm then it becomes tall buildings.

44:58

Mm-hmm. Many of those now looking at Yeah, yeah.

45:02

Old days and then become gate environment. And then suddenly everybody start backing off, um, the

45:09

senior people, the senior living. See, mmm

45:12

You have to build communities, you have to start doing all that.

45:16

Yeah. So those are the, I would say the evolvement of property development.

45:23

Going from the standard, standalone, and now going into community building.

45:28

is, is this because Malaysia is approaching a high, the, the

45:34

bottom of a high income country. So like, this is kind of well known because say if you looked at very

45:38

developed countries, it's probably a very different pattern or different thesis

45:41

Yes. Yes. So is that we have the benefit of, we kind of see this coming and know

45:45

how to act or, or, or how are you thinking about the problem from a

45:49

first principal's perspec perspective? No, uh, well let me, let me look at it this way because I travel quite a lot.

45:55

mm. So we, I spend a lot of time in the us mm-hmm.

45:59

You look at things. Yeah. And I say, wow that's a good idea.

46:03

Mm-hmm. What can I do at home?

46:06

Yeah. That's what we do. Okay. Very common.

46:09

Very common. So I guess that's like what you said, the evolvement, depending

46:14

on the, each individual person, what kind of exposure they have.

46:18

Because if I've not tra traveling or I don't see the world, no matter how

46:23

you sell the idea, to me it won't work because I'll be too conservative.

46:26

My mindset is closed. But there's also the fundamental macro constraints, like the reason why we may

46:34

not have higher quality developments because people just can't, they

46:37

just won't buy it at a higher price. So naturally you're stuck with a certain quality

46:40

Yep. ties to the constraints of labor market,

46:43

True. certain skilled workers, you just won't get the same quality of a developed nation.

46:47

Yeah. So, you know, tied to bringing in new things plus constraints, I guess kind

46:52

of you end up, end up where you are.

46:54

Mm-hmm. Um, and then so, so how do you tease out cutting edge then?

46:59

Cause that's what you said for your Yes, like what's new and what's innovating and how does that

47:02

education Mm. Educating your buyers.

47:05

Mm. Telling them exactly what happened.

47:08

I'll give you an example that what I've done once, um, one property

47:13

project that I had, um, erosion, river erosion, water erosion.

47:20

Very close to the project. Yeah.

47:23

Tons of, uh, earth washed away. Yeah.

47:26

Our roads, our thing was standing still.

47:29

So a little people, a lot of people were surprised.

47:31

Yeah. So I said that.

47:35

Learning from the past, this is what we need to do And it will

47:41

never, ever come up as an issue

47:44

Yeah. because it didn't happen. But once it happened, then you realize, then you know what kind

47:49

of quality that you have put in.

47:52

\Yeah. Um, I've seen many.

47:54

Mm-hmm. Yeah. But unfortunately the layman wouldn't know.

47:58

Yeah. So that, that's the, so that's the problem, right?

48:01

So the, how much is too much education where, you know, you're not gonna

48:07

move the market versus, like you par you pair it to the right amount

48:10

of risk to how much you educate, Yeah so what is that balance?

48:14

Like, what, what, what do you educate in order to push the vision forward?

48:21

I guess? Objective. Yeah. Ultimately, what, what, what is it?

48:24

Yeah. Another one, um, which I learned from my dad, my late.

48:30

He famously put buildings up, up to five, six stories, because at

48:34

that moment of time, that's all the requirement anymore doesn't make sense.

48:39

Mm-hmm. There's no market , there's no market so what, what he did, what he did was that he did piling and

48:46

enough for another three or four stories.

48:48

Mm-hmm. Interesting. Never thought about it.

48:51

I, I didn't know he would tell me, the foundation here can take

48:55

another two or three floors. Mm-hmm. You know, when the time is right.

48:59

Put up the three floors. interesting.

49:01

You see, he's already invested in the future. How did he come up with that though?

49:05

Because it seems obvious in hindsight. Yeah, yeah, I know, know

49:08

the blueprint we've seen, but like back then, it can't be that obvious.

49:11

And also like the extra cost is not probably worth it for the return.

49:13

Exactly. So like I said, I said, you know what, what is interesting Is that what, um,

49:20

what possess him to, to think that way. Yeah.

49:22

So unfortunately he's not around for me to ask. So I guess you, you learn from that.

49:28

So all I, all I did was, well, all I learned from him was prepare, actually,

49:34

you know, you never know what you never prob probably a good framework would be to examine uni, unit economics and you

49:40

take some percentage of risk that you could probably invest into it, that it's

49:44

not just kill your whole business model right. at least it allows a room for future expansion.

49:49

for Yes. Yeah. But you see, you know, he's looking at, he did it when he was like,

49:54

probably in his forties, fifties.

49:58

Yeah. He only realized when he was like his seventies, you know?

50:02

So a lot of compound experience. Exactly.

50:05

you have to go through a lot to get there exactly. Exactly. So that, that's something.

50:08

So how about this other angle in terms of innovation?

50:11

Do you do any angel investing in that property development space?

50:15

Uh, no. No. Why? Um, I always believe I could do better.

50:20

Um, no. In today's context, they take a lot of risk.

50:24

I look at the risk. I can't palate.

50:27

I said, I don't know enough. gimme Um, okay.

50:33

Very ambitious projects, meaning that their, their design is for this density.

50:39

Okay. Okay. And they will tell you that I could push it up to this level

50:44

in terms of cost per square foot or no, in, in terms of production.

50:47

Okay. Quality qual well, whatever. Okay.

50:50

So is, is there a building, let's say, uh, hundred units of condo?

50:54

This is, I could do 120. Mm-hmm. So my, my first question is the cost that you're going to incur.

50:59

Yeah. Yeah. Is there a market for that balance?

51:02

20? Do you compromise on design?

51:05

Yeah. Tho those are the little things that I will ask.

51:08

Uh, definitely because when you put another 20 more units, your

51:12

parking space is going to be the requirement for parking changes.

51:16

Everything changes. Yeah. Yeah. Um, don't worry.

51:20

By time we reach there, the market is there. , yeah.

51:23

So objective. So do you want to quickly turn over, make your money and move on?

51:30

Mm. Or do you have the fire power to say, i'll wait,

51:35

I would, I would bet that the majority of players don't have fire power to wait.

51:39

Correct. that's the nature of the market correct. Correct.

51:42

So a lot of them get, I mean, you look at their cash flows and you look and

51:44

it says you might not make this corner.

51:47

. Mm-hmm. So it's very scary. Yeah.

51:50

Yeah. The, the problem with me is that probably I know a little bit too much.

51:54

Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Yeah.

51:56

So that, the, that's the hard, that's the hard part of the age is you get biased and

52:00

jaded, but then how do you pair that to like what your father did?

52:03

mm. Right. There's this weird space where it's gonna work, but it doesn't

52:08

seem like it's gonna work. Yeah. Like, for example, all those guys you're afraid of.

52:12

How would you determine what one of those would work though Yes.

52:15

20 years from now, I might not be around that kind of thing.

52:18

Yeah. And, uh, they might be making tons of money, but like I

52:21

said, I, you don't, yeah. I don't really know from, from what you, at least from what you know, what you see.

52:25

It just doesn't make sense right now. now. No. Right now.

52:27

Yeah. Yeah. That's hard. So I guess that's, that's why you stayed away from, but I mean, but

52:32

there's culinary businesses that could support efficiencies, reduce costs, in

52:36

terms of property development, right? Yes. You don't care about that at all.

52:39

No, I do. I, I, I do visit, for example, I do look at, uh, what is the

52:44

latest construction methodology.

52:47

You know, and I said, oh, wow, you can do that.

52:50

Mm. Never thought of it, you know? Mm-hmm.

52:53

I says, mm, that's a bloody good idea. I think that makes more

52:57

Yes. think that's the sense where you could re-engineer rethink things from a

53:01

first principles perspective, because things have changed from decades ago.

53:05

Yes. So we're just building on extrapolations of extrapolations of what we think is

53:08

fundamental knowledge, but in reality, the underlying variables changed.

53:11

Correct. Correct. yeah. So those two do change.

53:15

Yeah. So we have to probably keep reexamining your biases to, to see that.

53:20

Right. And then it just turns up in performance, I guess.

53:24

Right? yes. Yes. Yes. That that's, that's the reason why I still visit all the construction

53:28

fairs, whatever, just for a walk.

53:31

see what's up It's just walk. Yeah. Why, why isn't property tech not bigger today?

53:36

Especially like in, I, I don't know if you know about Southeast Asia, but I,

53:39

at least Malaysia, we know that, you know, if we look at the US you have your

53:43

Zillow, your Trulias, your Red Fins. At least that's on a software

53:47

Yep. Yeah. Um, I think we famously know a lot of construction, well funded startups failed.

53:51

That was probably enormously harder problem to solve with tech.

53:54

right? Yep. Um, what is your take on why it's not bigger in Malaysia

53:59

or Southeast Asia broadly? I think we are lagging.

54:04

Okay. What would be the bottleneck then of that lag?

54:09

I think it's people, people's acceptance.

54:13

Okay. Um, In what, as, uh, aspect of acceptance.

54:19

I think we haven't gone past the threshold.

54:21

part, mm, You know, the, the early adopters are still, I mean, still there.

54:25

Yeah. Yeah. The early adopters, but you still have to go past that threshold

54:29

Yeah. Before the whole masses come in. Mm-hmm.

54:33

So, until, unless that happens, I don't think people will,

54:38

it's not not sexy enough. But there's always has.

54:42

There always has to be some pioneer that does that. And then people get on the bandwagon,

54:45

. Yes, yes. I mean, we all know that. I mean, law distribution, right.

54:49

And, um, not enough emphasis.

54:53

And our market is too small to even push the needle.

54:57

Well, it's only small in respects of that from a purchasing power standpoint.

55:02

Right. If we had the same productivity as Singapore might be a different story.

55:05

Right. Could be big enough in certain respects, you think? Or no.

55:09

Or still too small? We have quite spread out.

55:13

Mm. that's the thing oh, okay. Okay.

55:16

interesting Uh, not dense enough. Mm-hmm.

55:18

I mean, you look at Singapore and Hong Kong, they're very. dense.

55:20

Yeah. Things happen. forcing function. Yes.

55:23

Yeah, exactly. You look at New York, I mean, I spend a lot of time in New York.

55:27

Yeah. I look at things, my how I wish I could

55:30

at that you be like this? you could build that here. yeah but down here,

55:33

doesn't make sense doesn't make sense because so much land and people just tend

55:38

to be a bit more extravagant. Yeah, I started to build in KL City near the, uh, the race course

55:46

those days Petronas building down. Mm-hmm. Okay.

55:49

When we first launched, we were starting at $400 of square foot people.

55:53

Yeah. People were saying, whoa, you know, they were saying, wow.

55:56

I'm saying Whoa was so cheap. exactly. You see,

55:59

Yeah. I mean I walked through that, that path at 400 plus and I still remember very clearly

56:05

I had fights with a property, uh, valuers.

56:08

Yeah. I says, push it to 650.

56:11

to, mm-hmm. I mean, that's where we make money, right?

56:14

Yeah. They said, ah, you must be nuts. You can never do it?

56:17

And it was, wasn't that long ago. It was my lifetime.

56:20

Yeah. Probably 15, 20 years ago.

56:22

Mm-hmm. And um, I said, you know, you, you can't sell, you know, there's

56:28

no way I understand today.

56:30

You look at the numbers crazy, right?

56:34

Yes. But even still, like, so say you have market value, what is the market value?

56:39

Downtown KL, on average.

56:41

average? Probably about, okay. Rule of thumb, a thousand dollars a square

56:44

, thousand dollars square foot. But we see developers pushing $4,000 a square foot for certain projects.

56:49

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Are they crazy or are they going to, are they onto something?

56:53

No, I think that it's what you, you see, I always believe when you

56:56

say that you're going for $4,000 a square foot, what is the product?

56:59

Like Yeah. $1000 what is the product like?

57:01

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can get a glass of cheap wine for 50 bucks or glass

57:08

of Petrus is probably $5,000.

57:10

True. Yeah. So it really depends.

57:13

Yeah. Yeah. Um, but if you look at the population in kl, the general mass, let's

57:19

say, is it in the median range? They, they could only afford about maybe thousand eight, 2000 square foot.

57:26

That's today's market price. if you're going right in the KLCC area.

57:31

yeah. Now, if you go around the peripheral, I mean, come on, PJ is going at 600.

57:36

Yeah. Those days.

57:38

600, you know, in KL you can't sell.

57:41

Now it's 600. In pj, Yeah. PJ is pushing a thousand plus two.

57:45

thousand is, see, Yeah. doesn't make sense.

57:47

Right. Right. Yeah. Well, I mean, depends on your timeframe.

57:51

Say, say if you, your investment thesis, you believe KL gonna

57:54

be a modern developed nation. Like, it's gonna be as big, you know, just as modern as Singapore.

57:59

Mm-hmm. And if, say, if you could sell to foreigners that, that thesis

58:03

mm-hmm. actually buying now would be cheap then It is, it

58:06

is, uh, property market in KL now is climbing.

58:10

Okay. In this moment of time. So, A lot of foreigners have come in

58:15

Yeah. and they don't blink.

58:19

Well, cause relative to them, it's cheap for their market. Yes, yes.

58:22

Okay. They don't even blink. It's, it's a funny thing, you know, property is something

58:26

that you feel comfortable with and this is what you want.

58:29

Yeah. It's cheap, that kind of thing.

58:33

It's for investment. And you think that you want to flip it double the price in three years.

58:37

I think you can't get it. Yeah. Risky.

58:40

Risky. if you want to play this game Yes you hit the wrong cycle, then that's it.

58:44

Okay. Well, I mean, thanks for, for those insights. Um, I, I wanna talk a little bit about your past work.

58:50

Okay. Um, so maybe, uh, cause I, I have one specific topic I've in mind, but before

58:56

we do that, I wanna get the context. Cause I, in my research I couldn't get all the details, so maybe you

58:59

could help clarify some points. So you graduated, uh, from Trinity College in Dublin in 1985.

59:06

Yep. And then your first job that you got was in Pan Global business.

59:11

Yep. Right. Um, but before that, you know, from 1985 to 1987, did anything notable happen?

59:17

Well, I mean in, in terms of work. yeah work

59:20

Well, I came back and worked for my father.

59:23

Okay. Oh, back then, your father already had a, his family

59:27

business in property development? Yes. Okay.

59:30

So then, Why did you choose to not, why did you choose to leave then?

59:36

Well, actually it's, uh, quite a funny thing.

59:39

Um, I didn't leave. We acquired that company.

59:43

Oh ok interesting. Yeah, the family acquired that company.

59:45

Okay. Um, as usual, uh, what can go wrong?

59:49

Will go wrong. Yeah. Um, it was supposed to be a straightforward acquisition,

59:54

just buy, find, buyer sell.

59:56

Okay. But Are we talking about Pan Global or, yeah, so, okay.

1:00:01

So your, so your father's business bought Pan Global?

1:00:04

Yeah. Okay. So that's when you first started your career, like

1:00:07

well, on actually I wa well, yes.

1:00:09

Yeah. So off paper, I working, I was already working in the family.

1:00:12

Yeah. So what I'm doing is that I had to go in and, uh, clean house.

1:00:18

Ah, wow. That was my first exposure as a young kid.

1:00:24

Yeah. And this is, and you're starting at the very bottom in a sense.

1:00:30

I guess you could say you're brand new into this, at least.

1:00:32

Yes, I was, uh, well, I started at the bottom in the family company.

1:00:37

Yeah. I was working in this work site, yeah

1:00:40

as a clark of works, learning the ropes

1:00:43

Mm-hmm. traditional way very traditional.

1:00:47

Okay. And, Spent a couple of years learn how to handle people,

1:00:52

yeah, learn how to do calculations. Everything.

1:00:54

Everything under the sun, basically. Your MBA almost.

1:00:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. From the Institute of hard knocks. Yeah.

1:01:00

Then realize, what is this piece of paper that I learned from the UK, you

1:01:04

know, it's waste of time, you know? So, uh, then when we acquired the company during that time, something

1:01:10

went wrong as in terms of, uh, shareholders, uh, disgruntled.

1:01:15

And, um, we had to turn the company around in terms of making the, the

1:01:20

right profit before we could flip. It's, it's, uh, straightforward.

1:01:24

The idea is very straightforward. Buy at this level,

1:01:27

Yeah. Revamp, clean house,

1:01:30

Yeah. sell at a higher value I mean, that's

1:01:33

it's, as, basic as you can go. It's the traditional private equity model

1:01:36

yeah. Yeah. So that's what we did.

1:01:39

And, uh, before that we were doing with a few other companies.

1:01:43

no problem. No hitch straight away.

1:01:46

yeah. This one got stuck. So somebody has got to put on the hat and go and

1:01:52

Yeah do some real work. Yeah. hahahah always someone gotta do it.

1:01:57

Yeah. Yeah. I think that whole, whole bunch of us went in Clean house and because

1:02:02

we have got so many subsidiaries of all different walks in life,

1:02:07

Mm-hmm. and that was fun. Yeah.

1:02:10

So this, I mean, it almost sounds very private equity.

1:02:13

So what was the family core business then? All along?

1:02:17

All along? Uh, property development. all along property development.

1:02:20

Yeah. where did your dad get the notion to.

1:02:24

well, Wanna flip company, it seems

1:02:26

Yeah. Yeah. very different at the time. Is this different at the time or is this normal?

1:02:29

No, no. No. Very different. Uh, also by, I guess coincidence, going back to his time.

1:02:39

My grandfather, I mean, going with my grandfather, his father, um, from China.

1:02:45

Mm-hmm. Didn't, didn't have a lot of education.

1:02:48

Yeah. Uh, Institute of hard knocks learning to do anything under the sun.

1:02:53

yeah. Um, he was a, a trunk driver for the Japanese, occupation.

1:02:59

During the japanese occupation. Yeah. And he was faring goods from one area called balik pulau

1:03:07

all the way down to town, Mm-hmm. just fairing.

1:03:09

Transportation. Yeah. Logistics. Logistics, yes.

1:03:13

well logistics. Yeah. Yeah. Not the way we know, but anyway.

1:03:16

Yeah. And, um, if we have time, I will tell you the funny stories.

1:03:22

Um, that's how he started.

1:03:26

Yeah. And during Japanese time, he made lots of money.

1:03:28

Mm-hmm interesting unfortunately, he, he's also a, a great gambler.

1:03:33

Mm-hmm. Very common problem back then too. Yes.

1:03:35

Yes. I guess that's the, you hear this story a lot

1:03:38

yeah. So that's how it started.

1:03:43

And he used to ferry people around, uh, workers

1:03:47

mm-hmm. for after the Japanese war, um, for the, the British government

1:03:52

Mm-hmm. to repair drains, you know, broken down buildings, that kind of thing.

1:03:58

Yeah. Uh, subcontracting work.

1:04:01

Okay. They of course, Ah, okay.

1:04:03

that's where it began, that's, yeah. And, um, my grandfather was illiterate in terms of English

1:04:10

Mm-hmm. and uh, taking work from the local government, that's British, right.

1:04:16

So it's like a chicken and duck.

1:04:20

Yeah. So anyway, my dad was, uh, studying in St.

1:04:24

George's High school ok in Penang, uh, English school.

1:04:28

And, um, he saw a lot of, um, what do you call it, favoritism.

1:04:35

Mm-hmm. And the British tend to.

1:04:39

Yell and shout at those who don't speak the language

1:04:41

. Yeah. And my grandfather's one of them

1:04:43

Mm. And my father decided that he has to come be the intermediary between the D.O.

1:04:49

Or whoever, you know, uh, to help my grandfather so my grandfather said

1:04:56

to him, I think it was in form five, and he said, why don't you come out?

1:05:00

So he did. He came out and, uh, my grandfather took him to the, what we call very

1:05:07

senior clark technical assistant.

1:05:09

Dunno what Yeah. Yeah. In those days, and ask him, could you teach my son how to read prints, maps,

1:05:17

Wow. drawings, and calculate, uh, i, I guess quantities.

1:05:23

Mm-hmm. That's where he started. And he did that.

1:05:26

He liked it. And then he could speak the lingo.

1:05:28

Yeah. And the district officer, which is a British, loved him.

1:05:34

Mm-hmm. So anything below, I think a couple of hundred bucks or whatever is don't have

1:05:39

to go to tender, typical government thing. Right. So this is get Makok to do it,

1:05:43

Mm. You know? That's where he first started and he told me that his first year doing

1:05:48

that he had so much money in his, uh, bank that he couldn't believe it.

1:05:54

So I said, how much is so much, you know?

1:05:58

24,000. Wow. Must have been a lot back then.

1:06:02

I guess so, you know, and those days he says that, you know,

1:06:06

he was telling, talking to mom,

1:06:08

Yeah. my mom, if I have 200,000, you know, I'll retire.

1:06:12

That kind of thing. In those

1:06:14

days, What is enough? So that was the beginning of the not enough.

1:06:19

Yeah. Still young and ambitious.

1:06:22

Yeah. Yeah. So that's how we started. Okay.

1:06:25

uh, we won a lot of, uh, road repair works, building drains.

1:06:31

Building bridges. So you, you escalate as you get along.

1:06:36

Uh, we repaired a lot of, uh, old bungalow government bungalow houses.

1:06:40

Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, Hey, you, you can do it.

1:06:44

I want it this way and he could understand it, interpret.

1:06:48

And um, he did that. That's so fascinating that your moat and your advantage back in the day would be

1:06:55

language. Yes. That that's what makes your company defensible in a sense.

1:06:58

different, I guess, at least adventageous to getting the bid.

1:07:00

Yeah. Yeah. So that was the fun part.

1:07:02

. Yeah. Interesting. So then, so did your father ever think about this in terms of private

1:07:11

equity or what was his thinking? He's just thinking quick money or

1:07:14

quick money. Okay. Because in those days it's like survival.

1:07:18

To make sure that this year's Chinese New Year is better than last year's.

1:07:21

Yeah. And this is before the currency crisis, right?

1:07:24

way before. Yeah. So then, um, why, why this mentality, quick money?

1:07:32

Was it just the, the nature of the market at the time or,

1:07:34

, uh, survival. Okay. All, all Asian that came up from China here,

1:07:38

yeah. it's Ok its just

1:07:41

yeah. The mentality, mentality, yeah.

1:07:43

mentality, but he had a core business in property development.

1:07:46

You would say that by starting from then, and then he start working up.

1:07:49

I see. So still, so still in flux then. Yes.

1:07:51

But he still had enough capital to actually buy and sell businesses.

1:07:55

Well, uh, it was like sweating his, Okay.

1:07:58

Yeah. So, you know, yeah, that's where the hunger is, I guess.

1:08:01

Yes. then the, the existential of, you know, if this doesn't go

1:08:04

through, then we have no more money yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:08:06

We, we are going to eat porridge tonight.

1:08:09

Um, but you spent a good six years there. And so does that mean you were successful, you were able to

1:08:13

turn things around and sell it? Yes. Yes, we did.

1:08:16

did. We did. We did. Okay. Well, we did of course made a bundle

1:08:21

Yeah. but bearing in mind that.

1:08:27

We have to be very careful. Um, you know, we, we stayed below the radar

1:08:31

radar Yeah. all the time. Yeah. Yeah. We don't want to be,

1:08:34

Yeah. If you get flagged and then of course someone's gonna come.

1:08:37

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's always seems to be the case, especially back in those times.

1:08:40

I'm sure regulations were different, laws were different.

1:08:43

That's right. That's right. So then after this really good, that must have been a really fantastic experience.

1:08:47

Then you became CEO of, how do you say this?

1:08:50

Masbe yes. That, that is a actually my family company.

1:08:54

Oh, so that's your family company. Yeah. And so when I was doing research on Masbe, I couldn't find anything except

1:09:00

for a bunch of potential subsidiaries.

1:09:03

I saw massberry Masbe biotech, Masbe eco.

1:09:07

So this is all actually the same company or? Yes. yes.

1:09:10

All, all different subsidiaries rather. Okay.

1:09:12

We tend to do a lot of things, Okay, I see. Um, like I said, uh, in those days with pre-internet days.

1:09:20

Yeah. So we can be very shy about it.

1:09:23

ah, okay. So that's, that was the flipping businesses cuz they

1:09:26

still exist in the registry. Yes. all these companies and I, I actually see on LinkedIn, some people actually

1:09:31

still have worked for these, companies. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, so that was probably from that time period of flipping.

1:09:35

And then, so you became CEO and then you, this is where you really start to become

1:09:40

an expert in property development then

1:09:43

Act, actually, I became an expert in turning businesses around.

1:09:48

You know, I look at business because we have so many types.

1:09:51

You know, we, I've got, we have got insurance, we've got textile,

1:09:56

we've got manufacturing, we've got development, we've got financials.

1:10:00

Does that explain the gap From 1993 to 1997, you were

1:10:04

still flipping businesses or Uh, uh, 93 to 97.

1:10:08

I think I a quarrel with my dad.

1:10:11

I think I left. oh, interesting. you you left? I left.

1:10:14

wow. Yeah. Also quite common story too, right?

1:10:17

Yes it is. It is. We just, we just don't see eye to eye

1:10:22

on how to run the business Yes. Okay.

1:10:25

So then how, how did that get resolved? Cause eventually you came back and you did become ceo, so,

1:10:29

Well, it, it was an unfortunate circumstances because my

1:10:33

mother had the breast cancer. So I had to come back.

1:10:37

Mm-hmm. Uh, the good thing is that I came back and she rec, well, she,

1:10:41

her cancer went into remission. Mm-hmm. So I just had no, well, how would I say?

1:10:47

I just didn't, I couldn't, you know, to, to be a filial son.

1:10:52

It's, it's choosing what you prioritize in life.

1:10:54

Yes. chose your family, Yes. which is fine, Yeah.

1:10:58

So, like I said, not to say anything, you know, I, I chose to come back.

1:11:03

know, I, I couldn't stay away. And then you had this stint officially, at least on paper from

1:11:09

1993 to 1997, where you were ceo.

1:11:12

Now this is very interesting, the next jump, because this

1:11:17

is your family business. You kind of left, you come back, you flipped, you've done, you've gone

1:11:20

through hell, high hell and heaven, and done everything for this company.

1:11:24

And you are running it now, right? And then, however, your next thing that you list on your career development is

1:11:31

you became COO of a different company.

1:11:33

Yes. it, it is just, um, like I said, you wanted a change of, environment

1:11:39

despite being on top, I guess working on your own.

1:11:46

You're working in a shell. I mean, yeah. in, in a little egg shell thing.

1:11:50

mhmm You, you just want to explore

1:11:54

Yeah. And realize whether, whether you are worth anything,

1:11:58

Mm-hmm. You, know? yeah.

1:12:00

So like this, uh, sometimes just to go out and

1:12:03

test, see what's out in the world. test, test the market. Yeah. Am I that bad?

1:12:07

Yeah. yeah, I see what you mean. Yeah.

1:12:09

Yeah. And so you, and how do you think about, how do you become COO after being CEO?

1:12:16

Right. it's It's, a different mindset shift There's also different types of roles of coo,

1:12:22

Yes. So The, I learned a lot from that.

1:12:25

Yeah. I do.

1:12:28

The simple way of classifying what the CEO and COO is.

1:12:31

a CEO is a Mr. Outside and COO is Mr inside.

1:12:37

Okay. So the being the COO, I run everything within the company.

1:12:42

The CEO just go and make money in deciding the strategy.

1:12:46

Yeah. And you tell me if you want to go that way.

1:12:48

I got the plan all the way. So I'm the general and you're the prime minister.

1:12:51

Mm-hmm. Or, or the king or the emperor, you know?

1:12:55

And that's the most common framework. But there are other frameworks, right?

1:12:58

Where, for example, succession planning COO is made to become CEO.

1:13:03

There's the mentor who just does it for a few years, but then retires

1:13:07

cuz he was just helping this CEO transition to a more mature phase

1:13:10

yes, Right. So do, do you see this in your, your mentoring group?

1:13:15

Do you see these different roles in the people understanding frameworks?

1:13:18

Or is it more of what you described that, how they keep things

1:13:20

well, you are right. Absolutely right.

1:13:23

I have, in fact, I have been approached to us to be a CEO of another group for

1:13:30

two years to help the new CEO coming up.

1:13:35

So I says, what role do I play? He says, oh, you're the acting ceo.

1:13:39

Yeah. I said, you don't have to they won't accept that though

1:13:41

Yeah. right?? Yeah. I, like I said, I, I, I said, okay, forget the name.

1:13:45

Yeah. Tell me what correct, yeah. Tell me what the roles are.

1:13:48

Yeah. So they wanted me to do that. Yeah.

1:13:50

I felt that, uh, maybe I'm a little bit too lazy to do it now.

1:13:56

Well, your priorities are different, Correct?

1:13:58

Yeah. The priorities are different. It was exciting.

1:14:01

I mean I was quite, chuffed when people ask me.

1:14:06

Yeah. Because feeling, oh God, I'm 62 years old. People still want me.

1:14:09

Anyway, that's good what? Yeah, that's good.

1:14:12

But um, like I says, then I realized that a lot, we, we

1:14:16

have a severe lack of talent. Yeah, I, I would agree.

1:14:20

Because if you look at all the property developers, or at least the big ones,

1:14:23

they cycle through CEOs very fast.

1:14:26

And it's almost like, uh, I don't know if this is true.

1:14:29

This is not my domain. So take what I say in Stride,

1:14:31

Mm-hmm. it seems people are failing forward. Right.

1:14:34

And that there's not enough competence. And I mean, of course there's a dynamic where it's a family clan business

1:14:39

yes. it's very hard to deal with the.

1:14:42

The ultimate chairman or the, the actual decision maker.

1:14:45

Right. So professional, but you know, into interest of professionalizing, you

1:14:49

would think people would try to make that a smoother transition,

1:14:51

but it doesn't seem to work, Doesn't work. Unfortunately, in Malaysia, in this region's contexts, the, the

1:14:58

founders, the owners have absolute say

1:15:01

they're still very active even though they're retirement age

1:15:04

even they're playing golf. Yeah. You know?

1:15:07

Yeah, yeah, So, so do you want to go into that kind of game?

1:15:11

They, they are so different from the different. You're optimizing different things at that point

1:15:14

Yes, exactly. Yeah. You look at it, it's going to take probably another 30 years before we

1:15:20

reach the level of what the US are doing,

1:15:23

where its fully professionalized Correct. You know, I mean, the owners and they're so separate.

1:15:30

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it causes a different problem, but you would.

1:15:37

If you were the owner, that's the kind of life you would live where you don't

1:15:39

have the stress, we get all the upside. Right. At least you would think so.

1:15:42

But, uh, they have the mentality of the mindset saying that, if you

1:15:48

don't do it yourself, nobody will do it for you because it's your money.

1:15:50

Yeah. They can't let that go

1:15:53

Yeah. Yeah They can't let that go. So I, they haven't achieved the status of, like you said, let

1:15:59

people make the money for you Yeah. Do do you see that in your group?

1:16:03

Do people, do you, do you talk about that?

1:16:05

Do you bring it up? Is it something you consider or,

1:16:08

I bring it up as, I mean, I brought it up as a subject.

1:16:11

Yeah. Okay. But, uh, if

1:16:13

it's, not recep, people not receptive no, no, it's luke warm.

1:16:16

Mm-hmm. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. are some, there's one that is trying to do it,

1:16:20

Yeah. but, uh, let's see.

1:16:23

Let's see. we'll see. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I do know a few families that are, at least they've made

1:16:30

a constitution within the family. Yes.

1:16:32

Okay. And ultimately it's up to then the next generation, how to professionalize it.

1:16:36

But at least there's more structures that I'm seeing. . Some are still very loose though.

1:16:40

It's just more like how I feel, or like it's all in my head and they

1:16:43

think they, everyone could read their mind and you know, so, but it's, yeah.

1:16:46

We're, we're still very far, like you said, I think. very far.

1:16:49

Um, so then this leads to the last point on your, at least on paper,

1:16:53

you are now the CEO and president of Mekok International Group.

1:16:57

So how is that related to Masbe be your family group?

1:17:01

Okay. Uh, when my father passed away.

1:17:04

Okay. Things get reshuffled around. Okay.

1:17:08

Because there's usually, there's a lot of people involved in

1:17:10

the, on the cap table, right? Yeah. So what I did was that, uh, we reshuffled it.

1:17:15

Okay. actually Makok International is named after my father.

1:17:19

So, we tried, my father tried to professionalize it didn't

1:17:25

work because he couldn't let go. . That's probably the most common reason why it can't work.

1:17:30

You just can't let go Yeah.

1:17:32

I mean, he announced to everybody that he's retiring.

1:17:35

Yeah. At 60. Yeah. he never retired until he passed away, which is 77.

1:17:42

still worked until the last day Yes. You know, I love him.

1:17:46

I love him to bits because he gave me a lot of experience.

1:17:49

That's what I, I feel. And, um, I miss him because he's my sounding board

1:17:56

of course, Um, that, that is the important part.

1:17:59

Then I realized when I take the next step, you know, to go to Vistage.

1:18:05

That's how I see this relationship and I know there's a big gap.

1:18:08

Mm. So that's why I'm here

1:18:11

mm-hmm. I feel that, you know, I should do, uh, you know, help people to

1:18:16

make a little bit changes here. hopefully it makes a huge ripple at the other end.

1:18:20

. Mm-hmm. I see. That's my part,

1:18:24

Okay. my little part. Okay, so then you spun off and then you are now in charge of, this is the new

1:18:29

family business, I guess you can say. And I guess it's kind of splintered to some degree.

1:18:34

. yup. Um, and you've been doing it for quite some time, right?

1:18:37

It was many years, like 14 years, I think um, from 2009 or,

1:18:42

Well, reason being is that because there was a, what you call it,

1:18:46

the overlapping transition? Yeah, This company was started during my father when he was around.

1:18:51

Yeah. Oh, okay, okay, Okay.

1:18:53

So that's what I told him. This is what i want to happen.

1:18:56

Mm-hmm. So you have more control over your destiny and you could exert yourself.

1:19:00

Yeah. Correct. and that's his, it's very hard to live in the shadow I'm sure.

1:19:04

Yeah. Of the founder, right? yeah.

1:19:06

I want to eat this. He wants to eat. that. So you got to eat that,

1:19:09

Yeah. that kind Okay. But it seems like he was supportive.

1:19:11

At least he was Yeah. Okay. And so then you must have done many developments under

1:19:18

Makok International Group? I have, yeah.

1:19:21

Um, nothing to shout about. I mean, everybody does the same thing.

1:19:25

Yeah, I mean, I would say that the only iconic building that I have now would be

1:19:31

finishing the 50 story building in town. The Isola @ KLCC

1:19:35

Yeah. Okay. That's been a, that's an interesting business case, I think, right?

1:19:39

Because, and I, I, maybe you could help clear the history of that too,

1:19:43

because it seems it's deeply rooted in your family's history and at least a

1:19:47

piece of land that's being developed.

1:19:49

Right. Is, is under MassBe interestingly enough, uh, Massbe coffee.

1:19:54

uh, yes. So. Yeah. so you guys, I guess, had coffee ambitions at one point, or,

1:19:58

Oh, or was it a flipped company? Um, it was, no, it, it, we actually bought a, piece of land in China

1:20:05

hmm in coffee business. business. Oh Interesting. Okay.

1:20:07

Yeah. But, uh, when my father passed away, I just couldn't hack it.

1:20:12

The fact that, you know, I have to go fly in and out.

1:20:14

it's hard. It's hard, especially if you have a new family

1:20:17

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, you know, um, I wound down a lot of things, what my father did.

1:20:22

My father is a very energetic man. very ambitious.

1:20:25

I could see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I will call him and says, where are you?

1:20:29

Oh, I'm in Shanghai. Huh? You, You don't, didn't even tell you.

1:20:32

yeah. So that, that is like, that kind of man I was dealing with.

1:20:37

Okay. Um, like I said, I, I had to un unwind a lot of things.

1:20:41

We had a, what you call it, uh, a fertilizer business in Malacca.

1:20:45

yeah. I had to unwind because.

1:20:48

I couldn't bring myself to go down to Malacca to put yeah

1:20:51

You know, every week. It's a one and a half hours one way, you know?

1:20:54

Yeah. yeah, yeah. So if you can't control it, can't see it, can't touch it within

1:21:00

an earshot, I wouldn't do it why, why not consider professionalization?

1:21:04

Um, I need people, I have to

1:21:07

more risk, I guess. Yeah. More risk. Um,

1:21:11

But these businesses were profitable already . Small profit.

1:21:14

Small profit. So in order to, the amount of focus to scale one would probably be enormous

1:21:18

be Yes. Yeah okay. You know, it's not worth the headache I I guess

1:21:22

it's not, it's not, I, I, I would rather you see, I think that it

1:21:25

was such a, a small business.

1:21:27

It was doing like, I dunno, two, 300,000 a year a profit.

1:21:31

Um, I myself, wind down the business, keep the land, I'll probably

1:21:36

make more money from the land. Which yeah, which is probably true.

1:21:39

Yeah. Yeah. I don't have to employ 40 people.

1:21:42

correct madness. You You know Also the headache to make that work.

1:21:46

Yeah, that's true. Um, so then how did this, so let's talk, let's talk about Isola as a business case.

1:21:54

How did this deal come about? Because you are the landholder, so I know that historically

1:22:01

it's rooted in OCR land, right.

1:22:03

Ong Chong real estate realty, Yeah,

1:22:05

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And then I suspect one of the kids did.

1:22:12

did a buyout of takaso

1:22:14

uh, yeah, Takaso. Takaso

1:22:17

Yeah. Um, they did, yeah. That, that is a separate issue.

1:22:20

Mm-hmm. I actually don't know them. Okay.

1:22:22

They came via some introduction. I see.

1:22:25

And they, they needed a project to, to run in KL uh, they have been a,

1:22:29

a developer for a couple of places.

1:22:33

So we met, we had to sit down and have a chat

1:22:35

yeah. So at that time I was concentrating in Johor

1:22:41

For development development yeah. Yeah So I said that this is too small for me to come back

1:22:45

Mm-hmm. Interesting. Yeah. strange huh, so I said, okay, find a company that can do this for me.

1:22:53

And they fit, they, they were not the first company.

1:22:56

I think they were the third or fourth company, So I chatted with a few

1:23:01

and they said this fit the bill. . Mm. Okay.

1:23:03

In terms of all what you required, what I required.

1:23:06

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, okay. Then they carried on, well, we are delayed because of the pandemic.

1:23:12

That, that is, no, nobody could predict that.

1:23:14

Yeah. That was a huge delay. Yeah. Which means ultimately, well, so how was the, so how did you think about

1:23:20

dealing, uh, structuring the deal, right?

1:23:22

Because then that speaks to the, the risk or the, the capital during

1:23:27

the pandemic who took the hit, Yeah. So, um, I think that's, that's an interesting case, right?

1:23:31

Cuz you have the land bank and you're looking, it's too small for your purview.

1:23:36

Mm-hmm. So then how do you find the right partner?

1:23:38

How do you think about finding the right partner? How do you put a deal together like that together?

1:23:42

Well, I. First of all, I, I wanted somebody to have the means.

1:23:46

Yeah, Well, capitalized. yeah. So well capitalized to come in.

1:23:49

He came in and I said to him, okay, I'll give you the land.

1:23:53

Then a lot of people will say to me, um, we'll build this way,

1:23:59

we do this way, we'll do this, and then this is how we pay you.

1:24:02

Yeah. Um, what I wanted was an iconic development.

1:24:06

Okay. That is the first thing. They came back, they designed the thing.

1:24:11

Um, I got them the, the plot ratio that they require.

1:24:14

Yeah. And, um, I said, okay, fine.

1:24:19

And then they asked me, can we charge your land?

1:24:22

I says, that can be done. What does that mean? Um, borrow money on.

1:24:26

Oh, okay. okay. So I says, that can be done.

1:24:30

So using, uh, the land as the collateral

1:24:33

Collateral yeah. I said it's fine to help them to, because that's their first

1:24:37

cash flow. Yeah. Oh, it's their first? Their first project. Okay.

1:24:39

So I said, fine. Yeah. So let's have an agreement.

1:24:43

Yeah. If you cock up, I'll be the first person to walk in because I have the expertise.

1:24:47

Yeah, correct. You know how to do it Yeah. I know how to do it.

1:24:50

So that's not a problem. So we structured that deal.

1:24:53

Um, he agreed. Okay. I says I give some, you give some.

1:24:58

Then we split the profit. Okay. When you say give some, give some, I mean you already put up the land.

1:25:03

It's a quite sizable chunk. You giving up cash too, or are they giving up all the cash?

1:25:08

No, um, they have to borrow from the bank.

1:25:10

Yeah. Yeah. they take the risk they take the risks for the loan.

1:25:14

I take the risk allowing the land to be pledged.

1:25:17

True, true. Yeah. Cuz you could lose the the land. Yeah.

1:25:19

I could lose the land, but I, I want a personal guarantee from him

1:25:22

oof, well thats quite common too I think right? It, it is.

1:25:24

Yeah, it is. So he has the means.

1:25:27

That's fine. So I think that the project is too, I mean, it's a bit

1:25:31

too small for him to run away. Yeah.

1:25:33

Okay. That's how I feel. Yeah.

1:25:36

So then I says, okay, let's split the profit. So the, the standard splitting is like 70 30.

1:25:42

So as since I allow all this, I want more.

1:25:44

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So

1:25:47

was that a tough negotiation? No.

1:25:49

No. Is it because you had more leverage? Um, because we both know each other know exactly what's going on.

1:25:56

You know, there's no need to beat around the bush.

1:25:59

Yeah. Okay. No. Nothing to hide. Ok I see.

1:26:02

Yeah. ok I said okay. And then, so now the project should be coming to completion

1:26:08

By next year. By next year. yeah. So we delayed by one year, two months, something like that

1:26:14

That's quite, I remember I saw an article saying, uh, 2017 40% was sold.

1:26:19

So there's some buyers waiting for a long time then, Yep, yep.

1:26:22

Okay. Yeah. I mean this, like I said, we can't help it.

1:26:25

Yeah. It's the nature You know, and this extension is given by the government, so it's not that

1:26:30

we are gonna pay a penalty on it. Mmm Okay.

1:26:32

Okay. Um, we were hit by a few snags here and there.

1:26:36

Yeah, Yeah, of course. Some performance of contractors and everything, but that's not my problem.

1:26:41

It's his problem. Yeah. I don't have to deal with it.

1:26:44

. Okay. hopefully the project goes successfully then.

1:26:46

goes Yeah. I hope so too. yeah. And that'd be another, uh, addition to the KL skyline, right?

1:26:52

Yeah. Downtown KL. Yeah. Okay.

1:26:54

So let's, I wanna talk about the, the future.

1:26:58

I came across a very interesting question, um, on a, a public forum.

1:27:03

And the question was, what do you think Malaysia looks like in the

1:27:05

next 10 years, like politically, economically, socially, business wise?

1:27:10

And, you know, there seems to be a split camp, you know,

1:27:12

hmm optimist vs pessimist. So where, where do you, um, land in this?

1:27:18

Well, I, I, I think I, I look at this probably an optimist because I think

1:27:25

that the current government, um, will stamp out a lot of bad practices.

1:27:32

And, um, I hope that, uh, the non-bhumis, the, the non Malays

1:27:40

will have a larger, larger say. And that stemmed out, actually, I'm not the one that said it.

1:27:48

I can't remember who, but quite some time ago.

1:27:51

As long as there's a lot of wealth in the company and those in control

1:27:56

can't split it out divided equally.

1:27:59

There will be a lot of disgruntled shareholders, stakeholders.

1:28:04

That's what's happened. So as long as that is not resolved Right, they will recognize that

1:28:11

eventually to safeguard themself.

1:28:14

Eventually they have got to spread the, the wealth out to everybody.

1:28:21

Oof, interesting what that would look like though

1:28:23

Yeah. It's very hard imagine right?, Yes. because of at least where we're, where we're standing.

1:28:27

But if, if that logic holds true, it's very optimistic.

1:28:30

Yeah. I, I think that's the way I would see it.

1:28:33

Yeah. Um, we are very fortunate, uh, I don't have a lot of stake here now.

1:28:38

Mm-hmm. So you diversified. Yeah.

1:28:41

So, because during the, the previous administration, a couple of administration

1:28:47

Yeah. Um, all of us will prepare

1:28:50

yeah. to throw in the towel and walk. Interesting.

1:28:54

Isn't it? yeah. Yeah. Like I said, I mean, I can't walk because my land is here.

1:28:59

I can't take the land. away. That's harder. Yeah but whatever you have, you put it everywhere else

1:29:05

Yeah, spread it around yeah. Spread it around In terms of, um, diversifying to preserve wealth, then, have you kept it in the

1:29:14

region or you, or even Further abroad? Further Abroad

1:29:17

Further abroad more more stable. I dunno whether it's stable or not,

1:29:21

Yeah. right now, I mean, I do worry about what's happening in US.

1:29:25

I look at. UK I mean, they're hitting recession now.

1:29:30

It is amazing what you see there. Yeah. Um, actually at the end of the day,

1:29:35

yeah. it's better at home. Yeah, yeah.

1:29:38

Yeah. You know, interestingly enough so, I don't know.

1:29:41

it's, it's, it's hard to say where, where we're gonna land, but, um, I think

1:29:44

your advice may be diversification. Yeah. quite important

1:29:47

very very, Yeah. And not necessarily just by of course, revenue streams by country, Geography,

1:29:53

yes. yes. because we really don't know how this is shaping up right?

1:29:57

We do not know how it pan out. No. Um, so for the last section, you know, I would love to learn

1:30:02

more about you as a person. Um, what would you say your greatest superpower is

1:30:06

personally or professionally? uh, easy to talk to.

1:30:11

Mm. Yeah. I think that's true Easy to talk to.

1:30:14

Yeah. Um, people find it easy to, to throw everything out.

1:30:20

Mm. Right. Be to be vulnerable and very receptive.

1:30:27

A lot of my peers, as you said to me, that, you know, I dunno

1:30:32

whether you say it right, Yeah. but you know, it could be for all I know all bullshit

1:30:36

hahaha Yeah. yeah. But I'm convinced, Yeah.

1:30:39

you know. Where do you think that comes from? This, uh, natural ability to get people to talk to you or you're very easy to talk to

1:30:47

Listen, calm, Mm-hmm.

1:30:50

don't get, I guess don't get jitters, you know, don't react instantly.

1:30:57

I will assess the situation very well. First before I open my mouth.

1:31:02

That, that must be more genetic, you'd think, right?

1:31:06

Innate in in who you are as a person.

1:31:08

Yeah. Yeah. Cause for me, that's, that's a lot harder to, I'm more, I'm more reactive by nature.

1:31:12

You know, more can be more explosive depending on the situation

1:31:15

no, I think it's age also. I think Maybe, maybe yeah, that's true like I am, I, I like to think I'm more, uh,

1:31:22

calm than I was when I was with my teens. some people might disagree but you know, I think I'm moving

1:31:27

along in that direction too. So I think you're right. Aged age is definitely a big factor that it seems very intuitive, but a

1:31:34

lot of times gets discounted, I think. Yes Right. Especially when you're talking about in the context of

1:31:37

coaching and this kind of thing right, right

1:31:40

because you know, young people can add value, and we do forget that.

1:31:42

It's like, you know, your, your son, you talk to him like an adult.

1:31:45

So we, we tend to forget both sides, I guess.

1:31:47

You know, it's, it's a balance between that. So say once you've cultivated those, you know, like say, you know,

1:31:52

your, that's like your superpower. How do you go about defining those skill sets and marketing it?

1:31:58

I'm, I'm very lucky that I don't have to go out and market it.

1:32:01

. mmm okay. But, uh, what I want to do is to change the climate

1:32:06

Yeah. a little bit at a time. That's where I want to go into the market and start coaching and talking to people.

1:32:13

Yeah. Um, I, I'm not the person that would like to stand on the stage and do a lot of,

1:32:18

grand standing. yeah. No, I don't, you know but I, if you want to talk about things, something

1:32:23

serious, I'm willing, I'm here. Yeah. That kind of thing.

1:32:26

Mm-hmm. So my phone gets messages every day, you know.

1:32:31

Mm-hmm. Um, my wife will say to me, switch it off.

1:32:34

I says, I said, I can't, excuse me, it's not 12 o'clock.

1:32:38

I gotta go out and take a call. Yeah.

1:32:41

Well then you enjoy it, right? Yes. It's, it's not work.

1:32:44

I, I think, um, what I learned in, at least in my university, which it's

1:32:48

the Jesuit University in New York Okay. What they taught as the, one of the core foundations in the courses

1:32:54

is, you know, serving other people. And then typically that's the best way to serve yourself

1:32:57

which I find it to be very true it is, it is

1:33:00

As I iterated my life and my career, I find that more and more you

1:33:03

derive more pleasure out of it, True. True.

1:33:05

And then have, have you ever explicitly mapped out your core values?

1:33:10

You think about this a lot, or have you done this exercise?

1:33:12

Nope. So, off the top of your head, do you say, what would you think

1:33:15

your top core values would be? Just guessing

1:33:18

Family. Family. Anything else?

1:33:20

Second or third? I value friendship.

1:33:26

Friendship. Deep friendship? Deep friendship.

1:33:29

Yeah. Meaningful friendship. Meaningful friendship. Yeah. Um, people that I get, you know, I don't have to see you every day.

1:33:35

Five years from now I call up and says, what the

1:33:38

. Yeah. bleep have you been? You know, and I sit down and just catch up on old times.

1:33:42

Yeah. Just like nothing changed. Right? Yeah. Yeah. but those are quite hard.

1:33:45

And surprisingly, a lot of those friendships can be fragile too,

1:33:49

where you think you have that, but then they kind disappear. Yeah. So I think it's more meaningful as you get older

1:33:53

mm-hmm. Do you have anything else you would like to talk about or

1:33:57

you want to, um, shout out?

1:34:00

Anything you have, anything you're selling, anything you want to

1:34:03

No. schill your coaching business or

1:34:06

No deals? I think that, um, you know, like I said, I'm always here.

1:34:11

Mm. If you want a friend call me. That's about it.

1:34:15

Okay. Perfect. Perfect advice. And so thank you for your time and, um, you know, uh, I learned

1:34:21

a lot and it was great having you. Thank you. Thank you for that.

1:34:23

I, I learned a lot too from you. Thank you very much.

1:34:26

Okay,