0:02

Kyle is a nomadic physical therapist

0:04

and a sex empowerment coach who,

0:06

despite all of his expertise, can't

0:09

find a steady romantic partner to fit his

0:11

non monogamous lifestyle. But maybe

0:13

some of his.

0:14

Exits have a thing or two to say. This

0:16

is exited term you.

0:32

I'm Ushu and I'm Julie Kraftchik.

0:34

We are so excited to be back, and

0:36

we are you know, in case you don't know who, we are, active

0:39

daters turned dating sociologists,

0:41

and for almost a decade we've been studying

0:43

modern dating and talking to thousands

0:46

of daters about dating

0:48

on our other podcast called Datable, and

0:50

we're trying to figure out how do we

0:52

build meaningful relationships in a

0:55

time where people feel more disconnected

0:57

than.

0:57

Ever, Yes, ironically more connect

1:00

did but disconnected all at the same

1:02

time. And we're so excited to bring

1:04

all our learnings to this project

1:07

Exit Interview, where we're talking

1:09

to people's past flames, whether

1:11

that's one date they've been on a hookup

1:14

an x of many years. We're really

1:16

digging into what's going on, what's

1:18

holding people back from getting the love life.

1:20

They want opening the X

1:23

files. If this sounds super dramatic

1:25

and slightly terrifying. You're

1:27

right, I'm slightly terrified. We've

1:30

reached out to these old flames ourselves.

1:32

We've spoken to them, and we

1:34

are here to give that honest feedback.

1:37

Yeah, and we're talking to our data

1:39

today. Kyle. He knows a

1:41

lot about love life, sex,

1:44

but we still can't find that anchoring relationship.

1:47

And what drew us to Kyle

1:49

too is he was actually on a reality TV

1:52

show, The One That Got Away on Amazon,

1:54

which is something that you and I both watched.

1:56

We love that show so much.

1:58

And one thing you always adds when you're watching

2:00

reality TV is is this person

2:03

on here to find a connection or

2:05

do they just like the attention of being on televisions?

2:08

And I think, you know, we're going to dig into that with Kyle

2:10

a lot more. But have you ever

2:13

felt like someone really is using dating

2:15

for attention over connection.

2:18

I've never personally dated someone

2:20

like that because I prefer people who

2:22

are recluse and don't have social

2:24

media and attention.

2:26

You and are very.

2:27

Similar in that way my current partner, past

2:29

partners, one of their gem like

2:32

qualities is though they don't have social media.

2:34

But I think dating apps bring out this

2:37

attention side for people. A lot

2:39

of times we are more focused

2:41

on getting to like date three, not

2:44

because we like the person, but because we

2:46

want the validation or they give us

2:48

that feeling of oh, someone's

2:50

into me, which is attention.

2:52

You know, let's be real here. It's nice

2:54

to get attention, Yeah, nothing

2:56

wrong with that, but sometimes

2:59

we need to be more intentional about

3:01

what we're swiping for. You have to

3:03

ask, am I trying to build up my fan

3:06

base? Or am I looking for

3:08

a real connection? And

3:10

that is exactly what we're going to

3:12

dig into with our guests for this episode.

3:15

Kyle. We first heard of Kyle

3:17

on Amazon Primes show The One

3:19

That Got Away. Julie and I love that show.

3:22

And with a life as sexually explorative

3:25

and public as Kyle's,

3:27

there's no way his relationship history could

3:29

not be full of crazy adventures and

3:31

even crazier drama. And

3:34

yes, when we reach out to one of his longest

3:36

term access we received this

3:39

text, Kyle is quote

3:41

a narcissist, probably needs psychiatric

3:44

help.

3:44

Sam yup.

3:46

That's all we got from her, and honestly,

3:48

that's just the beginning. You're going to love

3:50

hearing from some of these old flames and we'll see

3:52

how Kyle takes the feedback. Please

3:55

welcome Kyle, Kyle,

4:04

thanks for coming on the Exit Interview.

4:07

How are you feeling?

4:08

Thank you for having me. I am stoked to

4:10

be here, not sure what to expect, but

4:13

I'm open to the mystery and the

4:15

experience here.

4:16

Nice.

4:16

I mean, that's all we can really ask for, right,

4:19

But here's what we know about you so far.

4:22

We know that you are a traveling

4:24

a physical therapist as well as a sex empowerment

4:26

coach. We know that you are very

4:29

open about sexuality in an effort

4:31

to make people feel comfortable in their own

4:33

skin. We also know that you

4:35

were featured on an Amazon Prime

4:37

show called The One That Got Away

4:40

that Julia and I religiously watched.

4:42

Yeah we did, but

4:45

especially with being on reality TV

4:47

being an influencer. What

4:50

we wanted to figure out today after

4:52

talking to the many past

4:54

flames of yours, are you looking

4:57

for connection or just attention?

5:00

Wow?

5:01

I totally hear you, and that's

5:05

Suez.

5:06

That's what we're kind of setting out to look at

5:08

today. What made you interested

5:11

in doing this exit interview?

5:13

There's so many things that I could better about myself

5:16

and I don't want to continue the patterns that I had

5:18

been in for so many years, and

5:20

so this is an opportunity

5:22

for feedback. And I'm sure

5:25

that some of the criticisms aren't going to be great,

5:27

and that's okay. I can take it.

5:29

But it's a learning moment so that I

5:32

can hopefully take something away from it and

5:34

move forward as a better human and

5:36

a better suitor and a better coach

5:39

for my clients that I work with clients.

5:42

Okay, So I just want to clarify this a little bit. We

5:44

do understand you have somewhat of an unusual

5:47

line of work. Can you break that down for us.

5:50

So to keep it short,

5:52

I mean, I'm a sex empowerment coach. I'm also a physical

5:54

therapist, but I mainly focus on the coaching now.

5:57

But in addition to that, with a lot of the topics

5:59

that I talk about in the sex realm, I

6:02

also am a sex worker. Through making

6:05

content on OnlyFans

6:08

and through that, there's a lot of people who have

6:10

stigmas and have opinions about

6:12

that and feel insecure about

6:14

their partners putting themselves out there, whether

6:17

it's solo content or they're making it

6:20

with other people. And someone who is a little

6:22

bit more sexually open might

6:24

be okay with that or might actually even want to make

6:26

content together.

6:27

Let's go back a bit, like, what are

6:29

some of your patterns and how do you think they

6:32

developed?

6:33

So I struggled with self love as I

6:35

grew up, and once I got to college,

6:37

I found out that I was good at sex

6:39

apparently, and this was a way

6:41

for me to find love.

6:44

In a way I connected sex to love. I was

6:46

like, oh, like I could finally get people

6:48

to like me, not showing the

6:50

true reasons why I want to

6:53

be with someone. So unfortunately

6:55

I did a lot of the fuck boy shit because

6:58

I truthfully was just looking for love and wanted

7:01

to feel good about myself, and

7:03

so I didn't feel worthy of

7:06

a quality woman. Truthfully, I didn't

7:08

feel worthy of someone who was doing

7:11

well in life, had a decent income.

7:13

Everything was about money. So now ever,

7:16

since I was like, I want

7:18

to be able to be financially secure and

7:20

stable, and that's a part of being

7:22

able to provide as a man in

7:24

society. And if you can't provide, you get

7:27

completely emasculated, especially today

7:29

where women are doing a lot better

7:32

in society and getting great jobs.

7:34

And making better incomes, which is amazing. But

7:37

a lot of those women are saying, well, why do I need you if

7:39

I'm making more money than you?

7:40

Would you say? Some of those fuck way tendencies

7:43

creep back up.

7:45

I mean, I try not to as much as possible

7:47

because I don't want to be that person again. I

7:49

don't want to hurt people.

7:51

So what are you looking for right now? What

7:53

is it that you want in your romantic life.

7:56

I'm living in Costa Rica right now. I'm

7:58

living nomadically at the moment, and so

8:01

dating is a little different down

8:03

here. I would love to have

8:06

a primary partner. And I say

8:08

primary partner because for the past

8:10

few years I've been in the world of ethical

8:12

non monogamy and exploring that, because that's

8:14

what really opened the doors for me

8:16

a lot to accept who I was. I

8:19

would love to have a romantic relationship

8:21

with someone, but I also don't want

8:23

to restrict my ability to love in general,

8:26

and being ethically

8:28

non monogamous and being open about this

8:31

has opened a lot of doors for me to

8:33

be able to love more than one person.

8:36

Describe kind of the dream primary

8:38

partner that you want.

8:40

Dream primary partner. She has

8:43

her own goals. Understands that

8:45

first we have to focus on each of

8:48

us separately, and then us

8:50

secondly, because I want you to go after your

8:52

goals. I want you to go after

8:54

that. I want you to create the life that you want,

8:57

create the life that I want, and we bring that together

8:59

and expand it even further.

9:00

So we're gonna get into our first

9:03

past flame for you. So,

9:06

our first person we spoke to was Morgan.

9:09

So you two met at a travel healthcare

9:12

conference in Vegas last year.

9:14

Why did you put Morgan on your list?

9:17

Well, Morgan was the first who

9:19

came to mind. It's funny when

9:21

we first met, we were at this conference

9:24

and we had been drinking. We were at this party

9:26

and she was just giving me the

9:28

fuck me eyes from like across the

9:30

dance floor for like a half hour

9:33

straight. I'm like on the dance floor with others.

9:35

I'm like, all right, let me finally go talk to this person.

9:37

Ever since then, she's just been really cool. We've

9:39

stayed in touch, and when we finally got

9:41

to get in touch again in person the

9:43

following year, it was like nothing changed.

9:46

And she's just very cute, smart,

9:49

So I just really wanted to get more insight

9:53

onto what she thought about me?

9:54

Why did things not progress into

9:56

a partnership.

9:58

So with Morgan, we I've

10:00

only been able to get in touch at the

10:02

conferences. It's hard to connect when

10:04

you're traveling healthcare professionals because you're

10:06

working in different parts of the world or the country.

10:09

Well, it's good to hear your side of things.

10:11

Shall we hear from Morgan?

10:13

Sure, let's do it.

10:16

He is just so cute and he's he's

10:18

he just was super kind and

10:21

I can tell that he, you know, really

10:23

likes what he does and that he really cares about people.

10:25

So the first time you met, what were

10:27

your impressions of Kyle?

10:29

I literally was just like staring

10:32

at this sounds so creepy.

10:35

I feel like it wasn't even not intelling, but you

10:37

know, like when you're out at a bar and you think

10:39

someone's cute and you just kind of glance their way

10:41

every so often, like he has tattoos,

10:44

Like that's definitely my type.

10:46

He just came over and talked to me, and I'm pretty

10:49

sure he was like, are you just gonna stare at me all

10:51

night? And I was like, you know, I might actually,

10:55

I mean it worked, so he

10:58

like came up, we started talking. Super

11:01

nice, he's really funny, but yeah,

11:03

definitely super outgoing, probably

11:05

a little bit of a smooth talker.

11:08

So you hooked up. Was this at

11:10

the first time you met? Also, like

11:12

the first conference?

11:14

Yeah, we slept together the first we slept

11:16

together last year. We slept together again this year

11:19

because it was good, So why not? Definitely

11:22

like no notes.

11:24

Was there anything that you saw or

11:26

experienced or talked to him about that

11:29

might be getting in his way that he's not aware

11:31

of.

11:32

I think at one point I told him he gave

11:34

off only child vibes, a

11:38

little cocky, just kind of like I don't

11:41

want to say self centered because that sounds so

11:43

mean. I think he knows that he's attractive.

11:45

I think he knows that he can pull woman pretty

11:47

easily, so that that's kind of like the vibe

11:50

that he gave off.

11:52

Do you think he gives off serious relationship

11:54

vibes?

11:55

Definitely more fun hookup vibes. The

11:58

few short talks that we have a feel

12:00

like I don't ever remember him mentioning

12:02

that he was interested in settling down

12:05

or like interested in a relationship. Really, maybe

12:07

it's because like the way we know

12:10

each other is probably more surface level,

12:13

specifically in our situation, like

12:16

probably not realistic to think long

12:18

term vibes when we're not in the same location.

12:21

I'm a travel nurse and so I kind of hop

12:23

all around, like I'm in Washington State right now,

12:25

so we really haven't been

12:27

in the same place longer than like

12:30

a week at a time together.

12:33

Morgan's a fan, obviously. What

12:36

did you think of the only child comment?

12:39

It doesn't bother me.

12:40

Are you an only child?

12:42

Oh?

12:42

No, I have an older brother, but we don't.

12:44

We don't talk, so maybe that adds to it.

12:47

I'm the second I will say, I'm the second

12:50

child, So maybe second

12:52

child vibes of like, hey, look

12:54

at me.

12:54

I don't know.

12:56

Is Borgan the type of person you would want

12:58

as a primary partner?

13:00

A ton of qualities that I would love

13:02

to have in a partner. You know,

13:04

she has this very I call it like

13:06

a like a childlike nature, Like she's very

13:09

very happy, and like you could get her a donut

13:11

and she'll be super stoked

13:13

about it, right, just like a little kid would. And I

13:16

love that part of people when they can

13:18

just get excited about the little things and they're always

13:20

just happy and that's Morgan.

13:22

Well, we're going to get to our next

13:25

old flame from yours. I guess they're

13:27

not even old flames. They're just friends

13:30

with benefits. They're women in your orbit.

13:32

This is Sam. You two met

13:34

online really jibed. Tell

13:37

us a little bit about why you put Sam

13:39

on your list.

13:41

We've had an interesting relationship

13:43

like good and bad, but

13:46

we're still very tight, very

13:48

close, Like you know, we're

13:50

there for each other, understand

13:52

each other. She's very sexually open

13:55

and like she's a content creator

13:57

just like I am. And we've made content.

13:59

To other So how did you guys meet?

14:02

She does like online marketing

14:04

and some other things in addition to being a content

14:06

creator. And she wanted to help me out with my

14:08

business because she saw my potential

14:10

and she just wanted to

14:13

be of assistance. And so we started

14:15

working together in a way, and

14:17

you know that brings its own dynamic. And

14:20

at one point last year, I decided

14:22

to rent out a converted van

14:25

a converted bus to live out of for about four

14:27

to five months. Yolo, let's

14:29

try it out. See if it's a lifestyle I want

14:31

to live.

14:32

Why not?

14:32

Yeah?

14:33

And while I was on that journey, she

14:35

was interested in coming along with me, and I

14:37

said, sure, why not. It'll help me out. She can

14:40

help me with work, we can make content together.

14:42

I'll not be alone.

14:44

And god, it

14:46

lasted all of like two or three days of

14:49

her in the van.

14:50

Days.

14:51

Yeah,

14:53

hold tight, this exit interview will continue

14:56

in just a moment.

15:07

It lasted all of like two or three days

15:10

of her in the vand days yeah

15:13

yeah. And I won't go too much

15:15

into it, but just

15:18

just for her sake, because I do care about her. But

15:20

let's just say some things happened on the road,

15:23

not within my realm, Like we broke

15:25

down on the side of the road. We

15:28

just got into an argument. It was stressful,

15:31

and I just said, maybe this isn't

15:34

the right time, maybe this maybe you

15:36

should go spend time on your own.

15:38

And ever since she's been on her own, I've

15:40

been doing my thing and we've kind of reconnected

15:43

and understand like should happened,

15:45

and it wasn't just the best situation

15:47

for both of us at the time.

15:49

I think Sam has a pretty different

15:51

take from you on that trip. So let's

15:54

let's hear what Sam had to say.

15:57

We first met when I was living in Denver.

16:00

Me'm not online We've never like been

16:03

in the same place for a long period of

16:05

time, but we've always maintained friendship.

16:07

We talk all the time. He has always

16:09

given me top tier advice, Like I've never

16:12

been steered wrong by that man. He's

16:14

phenomenal at what he does. He's

16:17

very intelligent, very sensitive, and he's

16:19

very empathetic, so he tends to understand

16:21

what people are going through. And

16:23

then we ended up on the road together for a

16:26

while as well when he had his van,

16:28

so we actually lived together for like two weeks, which was

16:31

super cool.

16:32

And that was under romantic context.

16:35

No, well kind of.

16:37

I really don't know how to define my relationship

16:39

with Kyle, Like he's one of my closest friends

16:41

on the planet.

16:42

But you hook up, yeah, not

16:44

often.

16:45

I think the main problem that we've always had was

16:48

we're always in different places, so

16:50

there's no potential there in

16:52

a serious way. He's just never

16:54

around long enough to develop a

16:56

serious relationship with I

16:58

work with him a lot on like just

17:01

kind of building his brand and helping

17:03

him get to where he wants to be. That's

17:05

kind of like my back end stuff. He

17:08

calls me his whiteboard.

17:09

I thought you were to say, like work wife, but I like

17:11

whiteboard better.

17:12

I like whiteboard too.

17:14

Yeah, I'm where he goes to put all his

17:16

ideas.

17:17

When you say you do work for him, he pays

17:20

you for that work.

17:21

I don't like charging him. It bothers

17:23

me, but he insists on paying.

17:26

What was the extent of your conversations

17:28

with him, especially about what he's

17:30

looking for.

17:32

He always talks to me about like what he's feeling.

17:34

He'll call me crying. He gets really overwhelmed

17:36

a lot, and it's because

17:39

he has a lot of passion for what he does, and

17:41

he doesn't know if he's always doing it to

17:43

the best of his ability, and he questions himself.

17:46

The lack of confidence that's

17:49

displayed is not something that I think

17:51

a woman might want. He

17:54

doesn't know if he's going to make it. He doesn't know if

17:57

this is this is going to be the career for him.

17:59

He doesn't know.

18:00

I feel like I would want my man to be more confident

18:02

in his skills in that position, especially

18:05

being that he's like kind of a guide.

18:08

Was there anything that you saw that

18:11

might be getting in his way that he's not aware

18:13

of.

18:14

I think he needs to settle somewhere.

18:17

I think he needs to focus more on

18:20

living his life and

18:22

less on being

18:24

this great influencer. It

18:27

doesn't seem like he loves it that much

18:29

anymore. I think he should focus on

18:31

what's in front of him instead of

18:33

what he could have.

18:36

Okay, a lot to take it. How

18:39

do you feel about your relationship with

18:41

Sam? Like, are you good with the status

18:44

quo of it being kind of undefined and

18:47

as you see each other or do you want

18:49

more from it?

18:50

Truthfully?

18:50

I think like enough has happened

18:53

in our past that I would see

18:55

her no more than a friend moving forward.

18:58

So one thing that's interesting when we talk to

19:00

Sam, she freaking adored

19:02

you. Like that was so clear from like

19:04

the entire conversation. Number

19:06

one fan, Yes, number one fan, and

19:09

she feels so close to you, But it

19:11

doesn't feel like you're viewing her necessarily

19:14

the same way. Do you feel like

19:16

there's an imbalance? And is

19:18

that okay?

19:19

I mean I appreciate that she adores me,

19:22

and yeah, like she said, she's never wanted

19:24

to pay me for services and

19:27

all these things, like she just she loves

19:29

me as a person and I've always known that. It's

19:32

just we've had some things

19:34

come up, whether it's through working

19:36

together or through our relationship or

19:38

the time we live together. That just

19:41

really we do need to work through some

19:43

of those things, in my opinion, and I

19:45

would love to so

19:47

that we can get to a point where we do have an even

19:49

closer relationship.

19:51

What do you think about her describing

19:54

you feeling overwhelmed a lot of times?

19:56

Where is this overwhelmed

19:58

feeling coming from?

20:00

The overwhelm comes from like not

20:02

being successful enough, not having

20:04

enough right wanting to provide.

20:07

That's where the overwhelm comes from. Is I put

20:10

a lot of pressure on myself to succeed, and

20:12

that pressure to succeed financially

20:14

and career wise gets in the way often of

20:17

my ability to pursue and enjoy

20:20

some of the things that I do have.

20:22

What are your thoughts about her talking about

20:24

like living life through too

20:26

much through social media.

20:28

Yeah, I definitely understand

20:31

where she's coming from. There's been times where,

20:34

like I was living in Las

20:36

Vegas prior to this, I bought a property there,

20:38

and you know, I didn't really have a

20:40

lot of friends there, and so

20:43

I was often by myself.

20:46

And a lot of my work is online,

20:48

it's through social media, it's through creating content

20:51

and although there's a lot of good relationships

20:54

that have come from that, there's a

20:56

big part of not meeting people in

20:58

person.

20:59

Who are your closest friends.

21:01

They're scattered across the country. I'm

21:03

originally from the East Coast, and

21:06

so when I was living out in Vegas, it was a whole

21:08

new place. I was living out in San Diego at a

21:10

time. I was a traveling physical therapist, so

21:13

often I was moving to places where I didn't have anyone

21:15

with me, and so I have friends, but it's

21:17

very small, very very close knit. I

21:19

only keep certain people close.

21:21

Got it, Okay, So we just heard from

21:23

a few people that are big fans. But we

21:26

have another old flame that has a slightly

21:28

different perspective. So next

21:31

up we have Nicki h Jeez,

21:33

who's also Polly and also

21:35

wants a serious long term partner like

21:37

you do. I feel like on paper,

21:39

you two actually have a lot in common. But we

21:41

talked to her. She's a

21:44

sex worker, loves making adult content.

21:46

You two met online and dated a

21:49

couple months. Tell us a little more

21:51

about Niki.

21:52

When I first met her was when I first got

21:54

my property in Las Vegas, which

21:56

was late twenty twenty. I moved into

21:58

it, and she was one of the first people I met

22:00

in Las Vegas. She was very spontaneous.

22:03

We made one of the hottest videos

22:05

that I've ever made. I've helped make her a ton of money

22:08

with that video. Let's see

22:10

if she admits to that very sexually open,

22:13

which was a big factor for me.

22:15

We're talking about sexual content, right.

22:17

Yeah, yeah, thank you for clarifying.

22:19

It wasn't dancing videos on TikTok

22:22

to like breaking it too montage

22:24

in the middle yet, well there was that too, probably.

22:26

No, it was more like, you know, her her

22:29

tripping and falling.

22:30

You know, why did she put Nikki on

22:33

the list?

22:34

I knew she would have some feedback.

22:36

I'm down, I'm okay with it. It's fine.

22:40

I can't believe that I allowed myself

22:43

to get into this situation.

22:44

Oh no, let's go to that.

22:47

Okay, let's go there.

22:48

Strapping ladies.

22:50

We met on Hinge and

22:52

I was like, cool, he has tattoos and travel

22:54

pictures, so like, I guess I'll give it a

22:56

shot. I think he is one

22:59

of the only people I've ever met on Hinge

23:01

and it was kind of over. After that, I was like, I can't do a

23:03

dating apps anymore?

23:05

Were you on the market for a relationship.

23:08

I'm like non monogamous, so it's

23:11

typically open, but I was like very

23:13

clear, I am looking for a partner, like a

23:15

long term relationship.

23:17

Do you recall having deep conversations

23:20

with him, especially about what he's

23:22

looking for in a relationship.

23:24

Anytime I tried to go deep, he

23:26

kept at service level, and it would

23:28

always like turn it around and ask me questions

23:30

instead of like really like allowing

23:33

himself to like sit there and like answer and think

23:35

about like what it is that he wanted.

23:38

So how do things progress?

23:40

Three days after we met, we went to Mexico.

23:43

As soon as we get there, he jumps on hinge and he's

23:45

like, let's find somebody'd have a threesome with, which,

23:47

like I'm very sexually liberated

23:49

and like very open, but I was like, we've known

23:52

each other for three days, so like, I don't know

23:54

how comfortable I am with this, but like you can

23:56

try to find that, like let me know how it goes

23:58

for you. Threesomes are Kyle's favorite

24:00

thing. I'm enjoying these experiences

24:02

with you. That is the one thing that I

24:04

think we can take away from this whole thing is like the

24:07

sex was fantastic. Like,

24:09

if there's one thing I can say I enjoyed about

24:11

that relationship, it was the sex. And that's

24:14

probably about it. We had a blast, but like

24:16

the entire time there was like this pit in my

24:18

stomach of just like

24:21

something's off and I couldn't quite

24:23

put my finger on it. And so we went

24:25

back from the trip. He goes off to work.

24:28

I ended up like being in

24:30

northern California working at the time to meet

24:33

up with my friend. I'm like out there visiting

24:35

him and he's like, hey, like, how

24:37

would you feel about like me going to like

24:39

play with this friend if

24:41

like you weren't there. She also approached

24:43

me, She's like, how would you feel about this? Like I'm not looking

24:46

for anything serious, Like it's just going to be like

24:48

a very sexual thing and like

24:51

nothing further for me. And I'm like, I'm fine

24:53

with that as long as like that's what it stays

24:55

as. So he comes back and

24:57

he's like, we had a really great time, but like, I

24:59

don't I really know if we like vibes that

25:02

much, Like our lifestyles are super different,

25:04

and like I just like I don't know if

25:06

it's like something that I really want, so I think I'm

25:08

going to have to go back again.

25:10

And like right before he leaves, I'm like, hey,

25:13

like I just want you to know, like I'm feeling

25:15

really uncomfortable and like not prioritized,

25:18

so like I'm not asking you to change

25:20

anything, but i just want you to know, like this

25:22

is how I feel. And he's like, well,

25:25

this just pissed me off. Like I'm getting ready

25:27

to leave.

25:27

I've had such a stressful day.

25:29

And like he was so insatiable about

25:31

like getting everything he wanted. Every

25:33

time I had a separate conversation with them, it was

25:35

like I was getting two different stories

25:38

and I was like, Okay, somebody's lying here,

25:40

and like I feel like I'm outside of this already,

25:43

so I need to know what's going on.

25:45

And then eventually my friend came

25:47

to me and she's like, yeah, so like I've been developing

25:50

feelings for him, and like I

25:52

think we want to give it a shot. And I was like, Okay,

25:55

thank you for finally being honest with

25:58

me. I don't want to be a part of this.

26:00

So you two are clearly open, but

26:02

what I'm hearing is it's more about

26:04

you feeling deprioritized

26:06

than him, like with another person.

26:10

Like you are a complete stranger to me.

26:12

I have no idea who you even are. I

26:14

do not know Kyle other than like lying

26:17

and manipulative, And I'm like, can

26:20

this be like my actual exit from your

26:22

life?

26:25

Well, I would say she's probably not a fan.

26:28

Not like the earlier too, that's for sure.

26:31

But we do have some positives from

26:33

this. You are fantastic in bed

26:35

and you're charming, So we'll start with the positive.

26:38

Where do you think things went wrong?

26:42

Wow? God,

26:45

there's a lot left out. We didn't really

26:48

know each other that long, but we started

26:50

like hanging out often, and

26:52

me and that friend we started friendly chatting,

26:55

and I said, hey, like before we do anything,

26:57

like, let's check in with Nikki and see if

27:00

this is okay with her. She was okay

27:02

with everything until the day before I was flying

27:04

to go see your friend, literally like hours before.

27:07

Yeah, so it put me in a bad spot.

27:09

And you know, I'm gonna be honest,

27:11

like, yeah, there were times where I was upset,

27:14

but I really do think she's exaggerating.

27:16

So you weren't aware that she wasn't

27:19

feeling prioritized or

27:21

you felt like she was saying that it was

27:23

okay.

27:24

This was one of the first times I was really

27:26

dating more than one person, and I

27:28

wanted to do it right. Yeah. So she led

27:31

me on thinking that these things were okay, when in reality

27:34

she couldn't face the truth and be honest

27:36

with both of us, saying like, hey, it's not okay.

27:39

Hey, can we really discuss this further.

27:41

It's definitely three sides of the story,

27:43

for sure. I agree, it's your

27:45

side, their side, and what actually

27:47

happened is always somewhere in the middle.

27:49

Yeah. From her perspective, she thought

27:51

it was just a casual play

27:54

date that you and her friend were going to engage

27:56

in. She didn't realize that there were actually

27:58

feelings involved.

28:00

Yeah, so we had that was the initial like hey,

28:02

we're gonna go hang out, We're gonna have a

28:04

good time. And then it was till after that

28:06

that we continue to keep

28:08

her in the loop on how things

28:11

were progressing, and she was

28:13

still okay with it.

28:14

Say so.

28:15

She did say something though, that was a similar

28:17

theme to some of the others, that things

28:19

only went surface level, that she

28:22

didn't feel like she knew the real Kyle,

28:25

do you have any thoughts about.

28:26

That I couldn't even like I

28:28

was an estate where I couldn't even cry. I

28:31

was struggling to even know myself. And

28:35

you know, I don't blame myself. I was going through some

28:37

shit and it's not an excuse, but

28:40

it was hard to It's hard to open up to someone when you

28:42

don't even know who you are, Like how

28:45

you want to open up?

28:46

I want to move on to the last

28:48

person we talked to, who is

28:51

your friend? Zion? And

28:53

you two met at a shamanic

28:56

sexual training in Sedona,

28:59

and you just became platonic

29:02

friends, which is very different than most of the

29:04

other people we've talked to. No sex

29:06

in the picture. Why was

29:09

she someone that stayed platonic for

29:11

you?

29:12

So?

29:13

I mean, Zion, we met, Yes,

29:15

we met at an interesting place. It's

29:17

part of my sexuality training, and in

29:20

that realm, we learned a lot

29:22

about ourselves and it's a very sensitive

29:25

area, very vulnerable, and

29:27

we just really got in touch with each other, really

29:29

vibed with one another and just there

29:32

was flirtatious vibes like there

29:34

were you know, there was cuddling and stuff

29:37

like that. But it's just not something

29:39

we wanted to pursue. In that time period,

29:41

and it's just become like a good friendship again

29:44

from a distance.

29:45

And why did you want us to talk to her, Zion?

29:48

I just know like she's

29:51

seen a side of me that a lot of people haven't.

29:53

I thought she could bring a lot of insight in perspective,

29:56

and she's gotten to know me on a level that other people

29:58

haven't.

29:59

Okay, let's hear it. I'm Zion.

30:00

Then I would

30:03

introduce him as

30:05

one of the most grounded

30:08

yet unpredictable special

30:11

humans.

30:12

Have you ever thought about dating

30:14

Kyle? Like when you met him?

30:16

Oh, immediately, I was like, I'm

30:18

very attracted to him. He was actually

30:21

the first person that I connected with at this

30:23

training, and I thought that him and I were

30:25

going to have all of these wild

30:28

experiences together. Then we started

30:30

like chatting and we just wound

30:32

up never doing it. So it

30:35

was kind of by accident that we

30:38

just became friends. And I'm

30:41

so happy with our relationship

30:44

because knowing Kyle now, like the

30:47

way we view dating

30:49

is so different. I'm

30:51

just in my core a

30:53

monogamous dater. My body

30:56

really wants Kyle, but my

30:58

heart knows that in a

31:00

relationship it wouldn't be a safe choice

31:03

for me.

31:04

In terms of your relationship with him,

31:06

how would you describe him?

31:07

I feel that Kyle wants to

31:10

be seen. I feel that I get

31:12

access to parts

31:14

of him as a friend that

31:16

I'm not sure if I would get access to if

31:19

we were to sleep together.

31:20

What do you know about his dating history.

31:23

I have seen firsthand that Kyle ruffles

31:25

a lot of feathers. He just doesn't give

31:28

a fuck what people think of him, and

31:31

I've seen it backfire on him with

31:33

women where she wasn't

31:35

being her and she wasn't being seen, and that there was a

31:37

little bit of this like just a lot

31:39

of intensity.

31:40

Kyle has a lot of intensity.

31:42

I also can see it being used

31:44

as like an escape mechanism to

31:46

not get too emotionally close to people.

31:49

In the beginning parts of our interaction.

31:52

In our relationship, I felt there was an emotional

31:55

block, and I'm

31:57

curious to see if part

31:59

of the powamory practice has

32:01

to do with escaping from wanting to go really,

32:03

really deep emotionally with one person.

32:06

I would love to see Kyle be as open

32:09

with his heart as he is with his

32:11

sexuality. Maybe an underlying

32:13

motive for also like being on

32:15

these shows, and what he's looking for is

32:17

for someone to be so

32:20

such a strong force that they just shatter

32:23

through all of the walls that he's put

32:25

up.

32:26

What do you think is getting in his way

32:29

of leading with that stuff?

32:31

I actually feel like his work is getting in

32:33

the way of his love

32:35

life because to be really

32:39

soft and to let his guard down and

32:41

to really truly let someone in

32:44

isn't really on brand. So

32:46

I'm curious actually to ask him if there's a

32:48

fear around kind

32:50

of losing credibility in a way,

32:53

or like losing everything he's built to

32:55

really be seen.

32:59

Okay, fascinating.

33:00

I mean again, this is why I had

33:02

Zion on because she's very insightful person.

33:05

And again we've met, we've

33:07

met in a different realm that people don't

33:09

understand.

33:09

She puts it together so well, she's like, can't

33:12

he be as open with his heart as

33:14

he is with his sexuality? What are

33:16

your thoughts about that?

33:19

Taking a quick ad break and then we've got

33:21

more exit interview craziness just

33:24

for you.

33:32

She puts it together so well, she's like, can't

33:34

he be as open with his heart as

33:37

he is with his sexuality? What are

33:39

your thoughts about that?

33:40

I will say this, A lot of the

33:43

time, I've been worried about getting into

33:45

relationship because I fear the like

33:48

I'm going to waste all this time and

33:50

it's not going to be the person, and

33:53

like it's going to stop me from all these other things

33:55

that I could have had. And also

33:58

I do recognize that when

34:01

I am in a relationship, I want

34:04

I want to like often

34:06

be with that person a lot, and I

34:08

want to like provide and do things

34:10

and cook dinner and go on dates. But

34:13

I struggled to maintain that like

34:16

boundaries with that, and that leads

34:18

to taking away from my ability to focus

34:20

on the other things I need to focus on, like my

34:22

business and my ability to bring an income, And

34:25

that's an issue for me that I

34:28

recognize I do need to work on as like having

34:30

those boundaries of like, hey, we can't just hang out all

34:32

the time.

34:33

I think. You know, Zion was definitely

34:35

insightful and brought a lot of the conversations

34:38

together that we've had. And you know,

34:40

first these first overall,

34:42

you know, minus Niki and maybe the state of

34:44

where you were at the time, everyone else

34:47

generally loved you. They thought you

34:49

were sweet, sexy, Charving They

34:51

all said you were good to bed, including Nikki,

34:53

so that was definitely something that

34:56

was going for you. But where

34:58

you can improve on. I love how Zion

35:01

put it, How do you start to lead

35:03

and be as open with your heart as your

35:05

sexuality. I feel like you showed

35:08

Zion a separate side of you, and she

35:10

even said it too that if

35:12

you two had hooked up, you probably wouldn't

35:15

have been as open with her.

35:16

Yeah, we understand you have a hard time getting close

35:19

to people, and you also mentioned earlier

35:21

about past partners using you. So

35:24

how do you think this is showing up in your relationships

35:26

and in your love life.

35:28

It's interesting you say these things because

35:31

I put myself out there and attract people

35:33

because I talk about such vulnerable

35:35

topics and I go

35:38

there on topics that a lot of people don't

35:40

because they're afraid to be vulnerable. And I am

35:42

authentic in that way of like talking

35:45

about these things like breath of fresh air,

35:47

and that's why they come close to me, because I am

35:49

authentic in that way, and I

35:51

teach people how to be more open

35:54

with themselves and just accept themselves. But

35:56

you know that reflection of like where am I holding

35:59

back and where my closing off my heart is.

36:02

It's still a work in progress.

36:04

I mean you said it yourself, right. It's

36:06

like you attract people for the vulnerability

36:09

on the sexual side, Like, how

36:11

can you do that with the emotional

36:13

side. Yeah, the stuff you were sharing

36:16

with us was Zion would love for you to

36:18

share that more on dates and you need someone

36:20

that's going to appreciate that.

36:22

Yeah, and I mean I would.

36:24

I would, And maybe you could check out my content

36:26

because I would argue that I do. I do

36:28

go there at times. I try

36:30

to not be crying on social media

36:32

all the time because I'm not trying to be like.

36:34

We're not talking about social media though, we're

36:36

talking about your dating life. Dating life,

36:39

Yes, right, I think that's the distinction

36:41

too, Like there's the Kyle social

36:44

media, there's Kyle dating And

36:46

where does one persona end and

36:49

the other begin. I think that's the part

36:51

we want the real Kyle. Like

36:53

when the cameras are off, who is

36:56

Kyle? That's that's

36:58

going to find your person?

36:59

Yeah, listen, Kyle, I just get a sense

37:01

that you live in a pressure cooker. This

37:04

is why overwhelmed

37:06

is a word to describe you, because you've got

37:08

the pressure from society. You've got

37:11

the pressure from yourself, and then you've

37:13

got this pressure from your brand. Of

37:15

being on the Kyle brand

37:18

is restricting your life.

37:20

We get that you become very vulnerable

37:22

on your social media, but you're vulnerable

37:25

in a way that doesn't allow people

37:27

to be closer to you. You're vulnerable

37:29

in a way that allows people to be professionally

37:31

closer to you. But even what you just

37:33

told us on this podcast

37:36

of the old Kyle, the

37:38

shadows that are creeping back up, the

37:41

pressures to be good enough,

37:43

you're not showing that side. And that's

37:46

the Kyle that can come out of this pressure

37:48

cooker that you're putting so much

37:51

emphasis on the external that

37:53

you're getting a little lost in the internal.

37:55

And even Zion set it too. It's like you

37:58

don't give a fuck. But also just right, I

38:00

just got to live life right. You can't

38:02

live life for the story,

38:04

you can't live life for the Graham. You got to live

38:07

life for Kyle.

38:08

Yeah, yeah, you're not wrong there.

38:10

Obviously, we all want to build

38:12

our empires, we want to leave the legacy.

38:15

But the people in your life, that

38:17

is what's important. So making

38:19

room for them, and you know, I

38:22

think there's this element too of

38:24

that we've talked about it like beyond the surface,

38:27

Like how do I get deeper with

38:29

some of the folks that are entering my

38:31

life and really making them

38:34

feel seen and heard? You know, Nikki

38:36

was a while ago, but it was clear that like she

38:38

didn't feel that, and you

38:41

know, even Sam like it

38:43

felt like a little one sided. I think

38:45

even if it's just a hookup, even if

38:47

it's just one of many

38:49

partners, like, how can you start to

38:52

really hear your partner out

38:54

and connect that way, because

38:56

that will be so essential for building

38:59

that you know, having that primary partner someday.

39:01

Yeah, And I think sometimes it's hard on

39:03

the go when you're always remote.

39:05

I mean, traveling is amazing, don't get me

39:08

wrong, But the downside is it's

39:10

hard to have that community that

39:12

I think is what's missing for

39:14

you that will give you that you

39:16

internal like fill your own cup and

39:18

not necessarily have to use dating

39:21

and sex and all that as that means.

39:23

Yeah, when I was a traveling physical therapist,

39:26

that led to me creating community online

39:28

because I was moving every three months. Yeah,

39:30

and so you can't it's hard to create community

39:32

or even meet even just one good person in

39:34

those travels. So that's been

39:36

my source of connection generally speaking,

39:39

and it helps. If I didn't have that, i'd

39:41

have nothing.

39:42

It's definitely helpful, but it's not enough

39:44

to you know. I think the screen there's

39:46

a limitation.

39:48

The nomadic lifestyle also

39:50

feeds the avoidant monster. So

39:52

the more you travel, the more you escape,

39:55

the more of you become. None

39:57

of these people we talk to today

40:00

live in your city or have lived

40:02

in your same city. They've all said,

40:04

well, they're distance. There's distance between

40:07

us. There's a reason for that because

40:09

you are I kind of feel like you're the catch

40:11

me if you can kind of guy.

40:13

There's almost a safeness to it

40:15

being the distance, right. The reason why

40:17

it didn't work out is because we couldn't

40:19

be together. We're too far apart, and

40:22

that doesn't let you get real. That doesn't let

40:24

you, you know, really get vulnerable

40:26

and see where this relationship could go

40:28

with someone. So again, we don't want to tell

40:31

you to change your lifestyle by any means,

40:33

but I think, how can you find more

40:36

of that as you're doing you

40:39

because that will help you in the long run.

40:41

I think part of getting there is putting

40:44

myself in the communities where I'll find more

40:46

of the people that will understand me, and I'll

40:48

be more destined to find someone yeah,

40:50

who's understanding of the work that I do

40:53

and who I am.

40:55

It sounds like there's almost

40:57

a bit of loneliness right and lost

41:00

Vegas, you didn't have that support system.

41:02

Your friends are scattered at this point. I

41:04

feel like that's almost why you're even

41:06

hanging on to these people that you met at a conference

41:09

once or twice. Yeah, not to say that

41:11

like you can't continue relationships

41:13

with them, and you know, we're not going to tell you, like

41:16

not to sleep with people without being or in a relationship.

41:18

Absolutely not. But sometimes

41:21

having like the community outside

41:23

of that makes it less of like a need

41:25

to find those people too, because

41:28

you're nourished with connection.

41:30

Yeah.

41:30

So I think ultimately, like the question

41:33

we had for you was, is

41:35

it connection or attention

41:38

that you're actually looking for? I

41:41

think you and I have an opinion, but we're curious

41:43

what your takeaway is Before we get

41:45

into that.

41:47

Pull tight this exit interview will continue.

41:49

You've been just a moment.

42:02

I think you and I have an opinion, but we're curious

42:04

what your takeaway is before we get

42:06

into that.

42:07

Yeah, I'm like on social media and stuff,

42:09

but and I run a business. The

42:11

idea is to get attention, and anyone who's

42:13

running a business who says it's not is lying

42:16

because attention is what brings business in

42:18

and how I get my message out there

42:20

to help more people. But am I

42:22

looking for attention to like

42:25

feel validated in myself in

42:27

some ways, yes, because I get

42:29

that validation through having a successful business

42:31

and helping people. So yeah, there

42:34

is some attention seeking, but it's

42:35

in the way of, like, I want to help people.

42:38

I think part of the reason you've used social

42:40

media as a substitute

42:42

for in person connection because you don't

42:45

have that community.

42:46

And what we're hearing from you is you are looking

42:49

for love, You are looking for a deeper connection.

42:52

And so the difference between connection and attention

42:54

here is one is very quantifiable.

42:57

Attention is quantifiable. It's in how

43:00

followers you have, how many minutes someone

43:02

watches your video. But connection

43:05

is not quantifiable. And

43:07

I want to bring this back to something that was interesting

43:09

that you said earlier, where I get the

43:11

sense that you think a partner actually

43:14

takes away from you, takes away

43:16

time takes away money, takes away

43:18

attention, when a partner

43:21

should actually build more abundance

43:24

in your life. They give you more time, they

43:26

give you more attention. So it's

43:28

not the quantity of the

43:31

time that they're teeing away from you. They're

43:33

probably filling that with the quality

43:36

of the connection that probably

43:38

outweighs the time that you could

43:40

have been spending on your business. So

43:43

maybe it's just a little shift that you can't

43:45

apply those business principles to

43:48

love because love doesn't work like that,

43:51

and we can think about it more in abundance

43:53

versus people taking away from you.

43:56

I agree that like coming together

43:58

should be able to expand and

44:01

bringing you your strengths

44:04

together should expand your love

44:06

and your life. I

44:08

recognize those things one hundred percent, and

44:10

I really just need to put myself

44:13

in those circles where there are going to be

44:15

better candidates for me in

44:18

regards to acceptance of who

44:20

I am and what I do. Are

44:22

you like you're cool with that, Like you're very fluid

44:25

and open. Its actually great.

44:26

Let's say you do find that community and you

44:29

do meet a very intriguing woman

44:31

and think there is potential there. What is

44:33

the one thing that you may do differently

44:36

in meeting her after this conversation, I.

44:38

Would say, focus on just

44:40

that one person for a little bit and

44:42

really just build that connection and

44:45

in a closed manner and say that if

44:47

we're going to go there, I

44:49

don't want to make a mistake that I made in a previous

44:52

relationship, because I want

44:54

to make sure.

44:55

Hey, we are good.

44:57

So if we both do want to have some form

44:59

of openness, we're solid

45:01

and we don't have to worry about that then

45:04

and there. But it would definitely be building

45:06

that foundation with just that person first.

45:09

That makes a lot of sense. Yep, we

45:11

won't give you any more questions. We've put you through

45:13

the rigular enough. But hopefully this was helpful.

45:16

We learned a lot about you. Hopefully you learned

45:18

even more about yourself.

45:19

Really appreciate your openness,

45:22

and thank you for teaching me something too, because

45:24

I just realized a light bulb moment is the key

45:27

to a healthy open relationship

45:29

is to be able to build strong connections,

45:32

because sometimes we think about open relationships as

45:34

like being able to handle multiple people.

45:36

No, it's actually being able to focus

45:39

on one person while you're with them

45:41

and being present with them. So thank you. I

45:44

learned that today.

45:45

Thank you for having me.

45:48

That was such an interesting conversation.

45:51

I feel like, you know, I

45:54

feel like we hear this a lot. You a like vulnerability

45:57

and what does that actually mean. It

46:00

was so interesting to hear Kyle's definition

46:02

of it, and it was really hard

46:04

to tease apart what was being vulnerable

46:07

in front of an audience versus vulnerable

46:10

in a romantic sense of like intimate

46:13

relationships.

46:14

This is kind of my gripe with the Instagram

46:17

generation. Remember that period

46:19

in time when everyone was posting no

46:22

filter, no makeup photos. Is

46:24

there being quote unquote vulnerable

46:27

And that's not about being vulnerable.

46:29

I think that's about being part of a trend. That's

46:31

about being whatever that may be. But

46:34

it's not vulnerable. I think there's

46:36

just this buzzword

46:38

that we haven't really defined. So it's

46:40

not anybody's fault. It just seems like it's

46:42

trendy to say you are vulnerable

46:45

when you really aren't. After this conversation,

46:48

I feel like I have a better understanding

46:50

of who Kyle is, more

46:53

than what I saw on his Instagram

46:55

and his TikTok.

46:56

And more that he lets the people

46:58

he dates or hooks up with ever see.

47:01

You know, I love per Day Brown, but I think

47:03

like she definitely was the one that started

47:05

the vulnerability trend. But I actually

47:08

was reading in her book recently,

47:10

and what like the moments of vulnerability

47:13

are you know, telling someone that

47:15

you had a good time on the date, telling them

47:17

that you're scared to get back into dating,

47:20

not just you know, putting yourself

47:22

out there in front of thousands

47:24

of followers. It's really getting

47:26

to the root of things that could actually

47:28

like make something not work out,

47:31

and and dating especially like

47:33

there's all these moments that it can be

47:35

really scary that we don't know what's going to happen,

47:37

we don't know how we'll be perceived

47:39

and what the other person wants. But

47:42

it's almost like this line of like fake vulnerability

47:46

versus actual vulnerability.

47:48

And I think Kyle had a hard

47:50

time differentiating between

47:53

his professional vulnerability and

47:55

his personal vulnerability, which is the more

47:57

authentic side of who he is. I

47:59

would go as far as to argue, whatever you put

48:02

on social media is not vulnerable.

48:04

No, it's the moments we don't see

48:06

of you in a social setting

48:09

that's when you're most vulnerable. And

48:11

I hope that after this discussion, Kyle

48:14

does see the difference between his professional

48:17

persona versus the authentic Kyle

48:19

that is just so caring

48:22

and kind and very empathetic.

48:25

Definitely, and I think he will get there, especially

48:28

as someone you know that's kind of

48:30

in this educational space, like it's

48:32

hard to get in touch with what

48:34

it actually means on your own side

48:36

and with your own personal life.

48:38

Yeah. Wow, I hope we

48:40

opened up this other v

48:43

side of him, the vulnerable side of him.

48:45

And at the beginning of this conversation, before meeting

48:48

him, you know, we got that text from his ex

48:51

calling him a narcissist, how he needs psychiatric

48:53

help. And I was ready, Julie,

48:56

I was ready. I was like, let's meet this guy. But

48:58

now, after this very well rounded

49:01

conversation, I get a better

49:03

sense that I think Kyle's just really

49:05

trying to find himself.

49:06

Everyone at their mother wants to be vulnerable,

49:09

and I think it's important. It's

49:11

clearly an essential relational

49:13

skill. But what I'd love for

49:16

Kyle to do and all our listeners out

49:18

there, instead of saying I'm vulnerable or

49:20

I need to be vulnerable, what does that

49:22

mean to you? What is an actual

49:25

action? I can take. That's how we start to

49:27

put this stuff into motion a bit more.

49:29

That's a great takeaway for

49:32

all of our listeners. What is being vulnerable

49:34

mean to you? And how do I

49:36

start being more vulnerable? And next

49:39

week we have another great guest. She's a single

49:41

mom who worries that being

49:43

a single parent is getting in the way

49:45

of her finding love.

49:47

You can subscribe to Exit Interview

49:49

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49:51

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50:01

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50:10

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50:12

Wonderful. Thank you all so much for listening,

50:14

and we'll see you all next week.

50:16

See you next week.

50:31

This episode was coordinated by Katia

50:33

Kupelian, creative produced by

50:35

Samantha Martin and edited by Jen

50:37

Jacobs. We are produced by Abigail

50:40

Steckler at Little Scorpion Studios,

50:42

with executive producers Uishu,

50:45

Julie Kraftjik and Frolic Media.

50:47

This is an iHeartRadio podcast,